The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average persons never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. If I mentioned the date, the fifteenth of December twenty fourteen, you probably can't remember what you were doing. But if I mentioned the link Cafe Siege, I'm sure you'd know exactly
where you were on that day. Like most people in Australia, that Siege is embedded in our psyche. It was a day terrorism came to the Sydney CBD eighteen Innocent people were taken hostage by Man Monus. That siege lasted sixteen hours. Two hostages, Tory Johnson and Katrina Dawson, lost their lives, and Man Monus was shot and killed by police in order to resolve the siege after Tory had been shot.
Today's guest, Louisa Hope was one of the hostages who was used as a human shield throughout the siege, and she suffered gunshot wounds from bullet fragments. Louisa is going to take us right inside the siege and talk about the ongoing effects being caught up in such a horrific act of terrorism has had on her. I think you'll find, like I have, what an impressive kind person. Louisa is welcome to I Catchkillers.
Thank you gery, good to be here.
Yeah. Well, we first met a couple of months ago. We're at a book launch slash retirement function for Dave Gore,
retired Detective inspector accounted terrorism experts. When I saw you, your face looked for me, and we were talking in the same group of people, and then you mentioned your name, and then I knew exactly who you were because, as coincidence would have it, just a couple of days before, I was speaking to Pamela Young, retired detective inspector that knows you, and your name came up and there we were at this function and now we're hearing I catch killers.
Yes, it's amazing. I was saying earlier actually that I feel like I have more cop friends now than I have my normal friends because I just seem to be coming up to events and different things that cop sex, cops and that kind of thing.
Yes, interesting, crew, Well, the two of the good guys we Dave and Pamela. So you're picking your friends in the cop world wisely, Look, it was almost ten years now since Linked cafe. What's your reflections on it from the person you were before that time and the person you are now.
The ten year anniversary is a moment, like it's a moment in time to reflect, and certainly with all the things and everything that's happened since then, it certainly has come to that point where I am Leah now thinking about the whole thing. And I think that previously before the siege, because the truth is life is, you know, before the siege and after the siege. That's how my friends and my family measure it as I do too.
So before the siege, really I was just living my life in my own little bubble, as we all tend to do, you know, it's all about we are the center of our own world. And so I was just doing all the fun things. I'd not long got divorced, and I was single again, and I was unfortunately I had to medically retire because of MS, and so that was a different world too. So I was traveling and having fun.
Really, it's funny, isn't it. You don't know what's around the corner in life, and your life changed so much from that day. The person you are, I would imagine, is a different person from what it was the day you walked into the cafe, I said before we started the podcast, and I want to say it again. I apologize for bringing it up and having you talk about that,
because I can understand a traumatic situation like that. When you sit down and talk in depth, like we are into today, you relive the moment.
It is true. But the thing is, because I have always felt that this event, the siege, it happened to not only to myself and the other people in the cafe, but it really happened to our whole country. So after the siege, I definitely had that sense of duty and willingness to share with whoever asked me to come and speak,
you know, because we all have questions. It's fascinating to me what people reflect on, you know, when you're out there and you're speaking and sharing, what they have to say about it and what they think some things are some of their information is not correct, and sometimes they have an understanding that is well a blessing to me too.
Yeah, okay, well, I understand where you're coming from, and I think situations like that it needs to be spoken about. It shouldn't be swept under the carpet, and we need people to understand what the ramifications are when actions are taken in the way they were at that siege.
That's right, because it wasn't just a tragedy, you know, with two innocent people being killed. It was a shock and the fact of the matter is, you know, we had the inquest afterwards, and there is always a question whether the inquest was sufficient or if perhaps it was maybe a blunt instrument to consider the whole aspect the event, because in quests, of course, just focus on the people who have died in a particular situation. So yes, there was a lot that the inquest just couldn't cover by
the very nature of its function. So you know, when we think about that, the fullness of the experience that we all had collectively, there are things that are still not resolved from to my mind, things that are still not understood. We have not learnt the full God that
have lessons that we could from that event. And I think that really learning the lessons across the board is the least that we can do to honor the people who passed that, you know, and also benefit our broader society as we come together, because I mean, what's the use of any experience in life if you don't learn from it.
And I think if we can be open enough to when I say police, like I was involved in aspects of it. I led the investigation in the crime scene, as you know, so I was called out for that.
It was an unusual situation for our law enforcement officers, for the New South Wales Police, for the country, for Australia as a whole, And you're quite right, like, okay, if things could have been done better, and it's a benefit of hindsight, it's a wonderful thing so it doesn't even necessarily have to be a direct criticism, it's just
what lessons learn from that. And speaking to you, I think it's amazing, Like I think the insight that you have to what you went through and you can look at it and reflect on it, I think it's quite amazing. And I'm sure it will come out today when we're talking, because let's be realistic. There was times during that siege and it was sixteen hours that you thought you were going to die.
Absolutely definitely. There were three particular occasions where I thought, this is it, I'm going to go on today. You know. It was serious, you know, and that really and in the end with the tragedy of Katrina losing her life in that situation at the end and all of us who were still in the you know, the main part of the cafe at that time, we're all injured and you know that we survived. It's quite miraculous. Really, that's the truth of it.
Yeah, yeah, I can only and I suppose it's everyone's worst fear, but it's a fear that you look when you're watching TV and a movie or something that has taken the hostage. And I think when we all get on the plane, you think, okay, wonder what happens if someone got up with a gun, what would go on? And he you were it would have almost felt surreal.
I would imagine it absolutely did.
It was, you know, actually going when Manhronman has stood up and started to make his little speech, I in my head, I thought, it's Canda camera. You know, we're across the road from Channel seven. It's just a lark. And it wasn't until he pulled out the gun that I thought, oh, no, this is real and we're going to die, because that's what terrorists do, right They killed you, and so that was a surprise, not to be killed on the spot.
Really yeah, I can only well, I can't imagine unless you've been there, who knows how you react or how you would feel from that. Let's talk about you before the day. Describe your life.
Well, I had a very happy life really and I live a very spiritual life. You know, faith is really important to me. And so I had my church community, and I had my group of friends, and I lived in a co and you know, not far down the road, I'd moved into a new place in en More, in Sydney, and that was a really happy time for me. Actually, you know, it was all about going out having fun.
How old were you at the time.
Now, that's a good question. I think I was fifty two, okay, So yeah, it's a great time in a woman's life to be.
Fifty okay and living in Nurskyville. Oh yeah, it's a fun, fun time. Pad by all. So yourself and your mother, Robin, that's right, I went to the cafe. What was that about the catch up or were you meet people?
Actually I had in that week and actually I was in Texas. I was in Austin, Texas, and I'd been doing some helping mum with some legal stuff. And she rang me and said, oh, you need to come home early because you know, we need to get it sorted out. Okay, So I come home early, so close to Christmas, you know, we're all just focused there. So anyway, we had an appointment with just with a family lawyer, so no big deal,
you know, it's ordinary business. And there we were, and we had because we didn't want to be late, because Mum lived out near the Blue Mountains at the time, and because you didn't want to be late, we made the decision that we would go in on the Sunday on the Sunday night and that we would then not get caught up in the traffic, you know, Monday morning,
and that's what we did. We're at the Hilton and we had that moment actually Gary, where we're just sort of deciding where we would have breakfast because our appointment, I think was maybe at ten, and we were like, will we stay at the Hilton or will we go up to the land and because you know that's the where his office was, in the tower block behind the lind and so will we won't. We don't want a big breakfast, We'll just go up and have coffee and toast.
So that's what we did. We just jumped in the cabin. We just slid through that door and into the lint, you know, and you just things that you don't even bother about. You know, which cafe will I go to? Where will I have breakfast? No big deal, ordinary, you know.
Just one. So just that typical, typical morning. We've all been for a cafe, not big breakfast, let's go grab a coffee. You've gone in there, so you're sitting down. What was your impression when you walked into the cafe? Had you been there before.
Yes, you know, I used to work in the city and Lint was you know, a regular place, and yeah, it was no big deal kind of thing.
You know.
The one thing we did now just was young Jared morten Hoffmann. He was our server that morning, and he looked a little bit not wanting to be there, and you know like, oh, and I said to my mum something like that kid doesn't look very have you, And she said, oh, well, you know you had to get up early, and I said, always going to be in for a long day then, not imagining, of course, but
you know, just sort of ordinary observations. So that was you know, me like just not interested really in what was going.
On again, just that typical day and the young young people working way might happen. It's ridiculous hour hour of the morning. So was there anything else about the environment that seemed unusual to me?
It's just that pretty Christmas thing. But I have to tell you that my mother, Robin, so yeah, bumps of Mom's a very interesting woman and classic salt of the earth kind of thing and do anything for anyone that kind of person and always going over and beyond. But this particular day we're sitting there. And as it was, she was sitting on the bench seat at the lint.
If anyone's been there, there's a bench seat that runs along the mountain place side, and I was sitting facing her with my back to the main body of the cafe. So Mom's sitting there, We've got her coffee, waiting for toast, and she says, what's that man doing over there? And I'm like, what man, mum chat chat carrying on? She said, why is that man sitting there? That must be the manager, she says, and I'm like, Mum, She says, well, do
you just he just doesn't look right. So I kind of like did the big turn around to see what she was talking. I said, don't look now, that kind of thing. And so I'm like, well, Mom, don't worry about it. Just leave him to his breakfast, no big deal anyway. But she kept rabbiting on about this chap that she just didn't feel was in the right place, and she's commenting about him, you know, on and off through our breakfast. In the end, I'm like, Mom, just relaxed,
don't worry about that man anyway. You know. It's sort of since then has reminded me, of course, that one should always listen to what one's mother says.
What would they know?
Yeah, exact.
But isn't an interesting instinct than something just didn't feel right? And I think it can come down to it almost like an energy, someone putting out the wrong energy. But it's interesting that your mum picked up on.
That though, well she certainly did. It was her intuition, you know, And how often do we dismiss our intuition. I mean, of course I wouldn't have prompted us to get up and run out of the cafe or anything, but just that she was aware, and just that I was dismissive. But yeah, so he was obviously at that very the early stage talking to Tory Johnson, as I understand now, got him to make a phone call to Triple O that kind of thing.
Okay, how it played out, as I understand, was that man Momus sat down at a table on his own, spoke to one of the staff and said, who's your manager? And the manager Tory came out and sat down and was having the conversation with him, and that's when men and Momus told him this is what's happening. When did you realize something terrible was about to take place.
I was sitting there and we had made that decision not to go upstairs, that we'd have another coffee, you know, another sliding door moment.
But we dan that extra coffee, I know, right.
But then there was this little buzz around the cafe that went, oh, the doors are locked, and I thought, oh, that's ridiculous. You know. Well, I'm just I'll call the building manager and they'll sort it out, no big deal. But in the meantime, I'll just go and pay for our coffee. So I got up and went to pay for my breakfast, and once again, the way the counter was, I was facing out, looking out onto the corner of Phillips Street and George Street, a mutain place, rather through
the door. And yeah, the little girl who was serving me was just She's had a mouth open and I couldn't see what she could see. And I'm thinking, what's wrong with this kid?
You know?
But of course she could see him standing up and making his speech, And so we did the exchange with the money. I turned around to go back to my seat and there he was. And it was only then that I realized that something was a mess. And as I said, to you earlier. You know, it wasn't until he pulled out his gun that I actually thought it was real.
He's standing up. Was he talking or shouting? Was what was being said?
No, he was.
Talking very deliberately, speaking very deliberately and not shouting, certainly not quiet, but just in a normal voice, telling us that we were hostages and that he was wanting to speak to the Prime Minister on national radio and that Australia was under attack. And at the same time, he was putting on his bandanna that he had around his head, and then he pulled out his gun. And then it was like, that's real. The gun was real.
Okay, So I think in the conversation he had with Tori, he got the staff to lock the doors, and then you've paid for your coffee, and then he's standing up, and then he put the bandanna on and pulled out the gun. I got what was going through your mind?
Well, in the moment, once I realized that it just wasn't some sort of candid camera joke, really, I just went, we're dead, because that's what terrorists do. They don't mess around, you know, And I thought we're all going to die. Quite literally, that was my thought, and it was that kind of moment of Okay, this is it, this is my dying day, you know. Really that's how I was thinking.
Yeah, well, it's understandable because if you've caught up in the bank robbery, the objective there is not to kill hostages or get attention. But when you're caught up in the situation that's been declared a terrorist, it's a reasonable assumption to think this is not going to end in nicely.
No, that's right, definitely, you know. And then of course he started to place everybody around the room and pulled the women in close to him and the men out on the outer ring, and putting people up at the
windows with his sign and things like that. He's been a little flag that he had, and so there was all of that going on as well, And of course in the room where all strangers, all of us who are customers, and of course the staff knew each other, but we didn't know each other, so we're just randomly there and yeah, it was like, well, what's next, and so he's giving instruction all that kind of thing.
So let me just talk through that, because getting the feel of what you went through there, he's declared it's a terrorist act. He's got the women around him as you would see, like it literally a human shield, putting the men around the outer perimeter in a circle, getting the flag and the signs up against the window. Concern for yourself, you're there with your mother, What you had concerns for your mother?
Because oh yeah, you.
Know, definitely, because well two things. Of course, one is concerned for one's mother and everybody else. But for me in particular, my concern about my mother was that I knew that she would not be taking this kind of crap. Quite frankly, say that exactly, you know, like, because you know I knew her and she would not have liked his behavior.
Don't be ridiculous, young man.
Actually yeah, it was a situation like that. But you know, so my concern was just trying to keep her quiet and still and just you know, breathe mum. But of course he once he realized that we were related, he separated us. So for example, the way he positioned us, I could not see her. Mum was actually seated behind me on the bench and I was seated and he faced me towards him. And yeah, so.
Did you get a chance to speak to your mom, like to communicate with your mum right at the.
Start, just a little bit, but not much, you know, mainly through you know, just what was saying with her eyes. But funnily enough, he was on it, like he was on all of us about keeping our eyes closed and not like giving each other signals or anything like that, and definitely sort of being aware of people can talk apart from words and so yes, so there was very
little opportunity for that. And only at one point he actually instructed me to speak to my mother, So that was peculiar in itself, but that really was my concern with mum, just trying to keep her calm.
I could well, when I say, I could imagine, and I'll probably trip up on that throughout this I can't imagine. It's just it's a surreal situation that ninety nine point ninety nine percent of people never find themselves in. You're sitting there, You got this person. How is his behavior? Is it Arabic or is it controlled or no?
He's calm, very deliberate in fact, and in lots of ways. It was like he had thought through a lot of things, but there are other things that he hadn't thought about. But then of course, really the man had originally planned to go to Channel seven, and because he couldn't get in because of the security, the you know, the link was his second kind of choice, if you like, and so things that he just didn't kind of know, like the lay out of the cafe and stuff like that.
So some things he was very deliberate about, and other things not peculiar.
So you're sitting there, you got your eyes closed, is he talking or you just left there in the moment wondering what the hell's going to happen.
Well, the eyes closed was eyes closed, eyes open routine that went on regularly.
What he would tell you the close your close eyes and then.
You grab your eyes. It was so strange, but anyway, so that's what we were doing. And of course it quickly become obvious that what he really wanted was media attention. Right at the beginning, he told me to ring triple Oh. So I assumed in that moment that I was the first person ringing TRIPLO. Didn't know about Tori's call, of course, so I was ringing triple O, which I did, And then then he was happy with the way I had made the call. And then he wanted. He said something
peculiar in that. He said, that was good, you can be my secretary. I seriously, what a promotion. But anyway, that's the day.
Right, just the fact that you can smile. I'm sorry, I'm laughing because it's not a laughing but you have you got that, that's true. You know, you got to be ridiculous.
Because if you don't, you know, you can go into the whole of the tragedy and into the fear and all that kind of thing. And so anyway, that that moment, and then he told me to get to find ABC Radio on the phone.
Is this your own phone? Your phone from.
Actually it was mums because that day I had forgotten my phone, which was a bit silly, but anyway, you know, I forgot my phone. So Mum has an Android and I have an Apple and blah blah, and I've got no idea how to work her phone. So anyway, I'm trying to find the right you know, ABC Radio, and I think I found the ABC book Club, which he was not interested in at all. He wanted ABC, you know, the news station. So very fortunately this is what happened.
Young Jared Morton Hoffman, who was a young boy who actually our waiter, our server that day. He quickly stepped in and said I'll do it, and with that I passed the phone to Jared, and Jared really stepped up from their amazing young man. He was only nineteen at the time, and you know, just incredible.
Took the initiative and took the pressure off fathers.
That's right.
Yeah, it's impressive how people reacting situations. And this is a kid that you and your mum were saying, Look, he doesn't want to be here, and that's right. He steps up like that. When you phone Triple O, what did you say?
I remember that I had to be very very clear because this was not a call the Triple O would be used to. So you know, I said to the woman, are you listening? You know right, this is what's happening. And I said, my mother and I this is just from memory, Yeah, my mother and I are in the Lint Cafe the corner of Phillips Street and Martin Place in Sydney, CBD. And I knew I had to say that because in that very be very precise about that
because Triple O are everywhere. They're not just you know, they're not Sydney there, they could have been anywhere and they would not have actually known what the location I was speaking about. So I was trying to be very particular about it. And you know the man because what else do you refer to him as the man? The man has a gun, And then of course Triple O go into the panic like how many are you? And you know where are you and how many are just like so at the same time he's telling me what
to say. So I was kind of like in that situation of trying to pacify him with saying what he wanted said and trying at the same time to answer the Triple O questions, which I've got to say was really challenging. But anyway, that was that and the end.
Of that master of the understatement challenging. I can't yeah, I can see that challenging because I can imagine the Triple O would be firing questions that you did he say what the purpose of the terrorist act was?
Well, first of all, he never referred to it as a terrorist act. And as an aside, one of the other girls referred to him as that, you know, a terrorist, and he said he got a little bit indignosed. Do you think I'm a terrorist, and she said, what else can I call you? And at that point he said, you can call me brother.
Brother isis okay?
So link into isis.
Yes, that's right. So we then started to call him brother. So prior to that, I'd been referring to him as sir, because you know, like men like that like to be deferred to, and so, but once he said, you know, call me brother, which was the most ironic joke in some ways. But you know, there we were.
Well, if you had a gun, I'd call him whatever wanted me to call.
Him first, exactly.
Yeah, yeah, okay, So how long how long have you been there before you're making contact with Triple A?
From my memory, which is about the time I think probably we're in that situation, about half an hour, but of course Tripoo had already been called because Tori had made that call, but so probably would have been about half an hour.
And he had you all hand your phones in that he did.
Yeah, so one of the first things he did was get everyone handing in their phones and their ID. So that's what happened. We all pulled out our ID and put it on the table and our phones and they were just left there, and of course we're all spread across the cafe, but then we were pulled in and so for most of us, our phones were left on
various tables that we had been sitting at. So throughout the day, of course, as people's friends and family become aware that it must be them in the cafe, then yeah, the phones were ringing.
Was he always had the firearm and always making a point of the fact that he's got control of this situation because he's got the firearm.
That's right, absolutely, And of course he had told us that he had a bomb in his backpack, and then he said, I've got two bombs in my backpack. And at that point I remember thinking, maybe got two bombs.
Yeah, you haven't.
Got a bomb, But you know what, do I know? I'm not going to argue with a man like that. And so just when okay, he's got a bomb. So he has a bomb in his backpack, and he's got the gun.
And the fact that he's made reference to a bomb, whether you can surmise, well, maybe it's not a bomb.
You just don't know, that's right. That's why I hope that a bobom.
Look, yeah, again, we're fed by a lot that we've seen in in the media and in fiction as well, that, yeah, the bomb goes off in the backpack when they push wash the button, that that type of thing. So that would have added to the whole scenario.
Oh yeah, definitely. You know, it's just that layer upon layer of pressure, and you know, it's the days winding on and you're sort of realizing that he's not going to kill anyone in a hurry, but he's that's a threat that's always there, you know, like certainly when the first hostages escaped, but you know that is always there.
Did you think, and I'm trying to get a sense, because only only you know, were you hoping that at some point in time police were going to come crashing through the door from the early stages, did you absolutely?
You know, from from the get go, absolutely I believed that the police would rescue us, because you know, that's what police do, right they rescue us. And just I just assumed that they were coming eventually, as he obviously was thinking that, you know, that the police were coming, and you know, it was a surprise to discover that that wasn't the plan. But so all through the day
there was a certain undercurrent amongst us. That we weren't speaking to each other, and we're all random strangers, as I've said, but you know, you could tell there was a vibe around us, and that was simply to keep him entertained and busy and give him what he wanted as far as we possibly could, to keep him focused on other things, which was trying to get media attention
while we all waited for the police to come. Now, I've never spoken to my fellow hostages about this, but I assume that they all thought the same.
I suppose in a group situation like that, without the communication, the body language and the whole tone of the thing, you would have been, Okay, let's just keep him happy because sooner or later the police are going will arrive and that this will be over.
And we could see them, of course, you know, as the day went on, we could see the tou guys outside. Obviously they weren't directly in front of the doors or anything like that, but we could see their reflection in the marble from the reserve bank. You know, I don't know this is going to sound the strangest weird thing, but you could feel them, and I don't know how we did through all that brick and marble and everything, but you could feel yeah, mystery.
Well yeah, I think in a situation like that you senses are heightened, every sense, and so yeah, I don't think it's unusual to experience things that you can't really explain in that situation. The efforts to contact the Prime Minister and that, and when you said the young staff members stepped up and said he'd negotiap how was that going? What was Mamas doing when all this was going on. Was he constantly talking to you and keeping control or was he silent?
No, he's constantly talking and definitely keeping control. And he was as like, the younger one stepped up because I'm more fluid with social media and then all that kind of stuff, and then he told us to put it on our social media, and which of course would have just been terrifying for people's family and friends. So of course Mom and I. I didn't have my phone, so I didn't do any of that. Mom of course didn't
have that kind of thing. So anyway, everyone was busy with that, doing social media and also trying to get press attention.
So so when you say everyone was busy on social media, so you had your phones there and he was encouraging peace.
So yeah, he did certain yeah, certain people, not everyone all at the same time or anything like that. But he was saying, I put it on social media. Then how do we get it up onto YouTube? Well, you know, Jared morten Hoffman and some of the others knew just how to do that. And then of course he had us make this video telling people what was going on, what he wanted, and of course that particular video I
participated in that. And the thing was he said, say what you like, but say this so you know, sure, so of course, so of course wanting to plicate him and by precating him, keeping him passive or as passive as a man with a gun could be, hoping that, you know, just give us that bit more time till the police come. So yes, it was like that. The whole day was about trying to get media attention and that was exhausting. But we're all participating in that in
one way or another. Not so much my mother and I but you know, watching, you know, what the other kids were doing, etc.
But I fully understand placating the person in there. And you've probably heard the terminology Stockholm syndrome with I think it was from a nineteen seventy four hostage situation where people are doing things to appease a person that's got control.
So I understand that delivering the messages like again, this is and I'm tapping into because most people don't have this life experience being caught up in something like this, but we've seen it on TV and you see these horrible situations where hostages are staring at the camera going, please the person who's been good to us, blah blah blah whatever demands. What was that like?
It was peculiar to have to do that, So I remember that when I did mine, I just i'd lived it. Of course, whilst he's in the side telling me what to say and trying to say it quickly, you know, to get the whole thing over and done with. But you know, he the interesting thing, as you pointed out earlier, the whole Stockholm syndrome situation, I can say with confidence in my own heart that we were not in that Stockholm situation, particularly because nobody had given over to him
or yielded to him. Everyone was participating to hold out long enough for the police to come. So we hadn't gone over to his side, we're just doing whatever it takes.
Hadn't been broken, No, that's.
Right, and there was certainly no love for the man, but just whatever he wanted for now.
Did you looking at the people in there and at the time you walking with the aid of a walking stick, that's correct, other people in there? Did you think there was opportunities for other people to take action? Do you think that was going through people's minds? Like, we've eighteen of you in there and one person with a gun. He can't keep an eye on everyone, ending on where he's got you corral or position. Were you concern someone
was going to try something to resolve the situation? Not concerned? Did you think that was a possibility?
Well, of course I did think that that could be a possibility. I didn't know how that could be, but you know, really, I now know that some of the younger guys had taken Nyes from the kitchen when they were pulled out of the kitchen right at the beginning, and seriously, I cannot think of how they could have attacked him without first of all, you know, this bomb going off or the gun going off, or you know, them being killed or somebody else, So you know, just
as an assign I'll tell you this little story. So at one point my mother, who was you know, blood was boiling. She stands up and she hands on her hips and she says, I want to go to the bathroom and my daughter needs some medication. Oh mum. Anyway, so he says, you go the toilet. And he used to send us with one or two lint workers, or each of us went with the lint workers. It was either Jared or young Fiona. Ma anyway, so mum, she'd done that, and off she goes. And she goes down
to the bathroom with Fiona and Jared. For whatever reason, he sent the two of them. So she's down in the toilet and so Jared then tells me this story when I was in hospital actually, and he says, your mother. I go, yeah, yeah, my mother. So we took her down to the toilet and she says, right, you fellas. I can just hear us saying it, right, you fellas.
This is what we're going to do. We're going to go up upstairs because the toilets were down three stairs, up three stairs, go up the stairs, and I'm going to go and Spitney's face and all of you fellas are going to run out. And when Jared told me that, I just kind of I'm in my hospital bed there and he's visiting, and I'm like, oh, that cold sort of shiver go over me because I thought that was exactly what I was afraid of. And he says, and we're laughing, you know, at the same time, Jared and
I the insanity of it. And she says, this is one of this is it? Like, you know, I've made up my mind. And he says, but Robin, he could kill you, and she goes, That's okay. I've had a good life. I'm not worried. You know, he kills me, doesn't matter. You fellas get out. You're only young, blah blah blah. And then he says to her, but he could kill somebody else, and she had no answer for that, of course, so that put her back in a box.
But I just sort of think about, you know, the wisdom and the quick wittedness of that young man to come up against my mother, who I absolutely have no doubt would have walked up and spat in his face. Yeah, yeah, you know, and just I think, my goodness, charity, you know, it.
Says a lot wisdom the years, and we look at kids or nineteen year old or whatever agey was and thinking, well, you don't really know what life is about, but they step up in situations like that, and it's an extreme situation, like I could imagine that people just panicking. I'm surprised people didn't just break down and cry uncontrollably?
Yeah they did, did they?
And that looking at all the other hostages just and matter for yourself whether you identify the hostages, but just the type of different reactions that people had in that situation, because, as you pointed out, collectively, you've all been brought there together. You don't know each other outside the staff members, and you've put in this extraordinary situation. So did you see
things that inspired you with the other hostages. You've just talked about what Jared did and other things that surprised you how people react.
Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, I think that it would have been appropriate and understandable if absolutely everybody was on the floor crying their eyes out. You know, it was terrifying, quite frankly, and you know that nobody vomited with the fear is still a surprise to me. You know, like some of the younger girls were quite like that
and totally understandable. But of course those younger girls were on the floor praying illness, not coping, but that they managed to find a way to sneak out of the cafe. Brilliant luck. And so you know, it's just you don't know, people have their own way of surviving.
How far into the seat When the first three Mammy two escape.
Yeah, I think that it was probably mid afternoon.
Okay, so we're looking at four or five hours. Yeah, situation.
Those guys, I I am so glad they escaped. So glad because I think that and I do not know the mind of a terrorist, right, but I think that Monas and the way he was treating some of the men, he was dehumanizing them, and he was referring to them as white shirt. For example, he referred to Deartry as manager, you know, whereas the women he tended to use our names. He referred to my mother as Luisa's mother. But you know,
like then she was irritating him, you know. So so the first lot of when the first lot of hostages escaped, obviously the terrorist and us we thought that the police were coming. We just assumed that that was what was happening in the moment, so where there was a big noise and then three of them ran out, and then we're all on our feet like, ah, you know, it's kind of screaming, et cetera. And of course he grabbed me because I just happened to be the first person
in his eye of sight, so he grabbed me. He's got me by the back of my dress, and he's got the gun, and I'm thinking, great, the police are going to come. They're going to try and shoot him, and they'll shoot me and I'm definitely going to die, you know, so like that, and of course what had happened was that they had all escaped, and it was only that once again Jared morten Hoffman was quick enough to think to shout at him, the police aren't coming.
They've escaped. They've escaped. So it was only in that moment that it suddenly took down the temperature, you know, in the room, because and it was later he actually said to the group, he said, you will should thank Jared that he was quick enough to tell me that the police weren't coming, that they had escaped, because oh, I killed that woman. That woman be me of course.
Yeah, well that puts you. You're smiling got I said you're a nice lady at the start of the podcast, and I do understand it, and we'll explain it and explain it again because I think people that have seen horrific situations, been in horrific situations, and police experience that quite often people don't understand how you laugh. But it is a coping mechanism, isn't it. You've got to otherwise you get dragged into this dark hole that's very hard, too hard to get out. But I'm going to take
you in that hole right now. That must have been like the chaos of because they ran out the door, they saw an opportunity, ran out the door. You're all on your feet. He's panicking, a heightened state of alert, and he's grabbed you, and you've got a gun in his hand. At the best scenario, the police are coming in the door and they're going to try and take him out, but you're virtually he's human shield or he's
going to react violently and shoot you. As he said, he was considering what was going through your mind at that point in time. Is that a point in time when you think this is it?
Yeah?
Absolutely, you know, not wanting to be glib about this, but I have an easy relationship with death and that has to do with my faith. And so you know, once I kind of realized right from the beginning really that this could be it, I started to understand something about myself. So this is a little side story, but you know, and that was that we all understand the concept of body, mind and spirit. You know, we talk about it, and you know, there's a lot of money
made out of it, all that kind of thing. But during the siege, I actually experienced it in real time within myself. In that and it wasn't just an idea or a concept or a philosophy. It was I could feel it physically within myself. So in my head, my logical head, I could not see a way forward. I really thought that we and I would die. In my heart, I was.
Oh, my God, what's going to happen?
Ah?
Panic, But in my gut, in the depth of my very being, I had an overwhelmed sense of calm. And you know, people who are familiar would understand, you know, the peace of God that surpasses all understanding, keeps you anchored in that suredness that whether I lived or I died that day. Ultimately for me, it didn't matter.
I go on.
So you know, that was core to my being and my thinking. So but experiencing it in real time and I remember thinking, gosh, I've only just come to understand this, and I'm going to die, you know, like and so you know that, so that gave me a certain amount of psycho emotional freedom. So yeah, in that moment.
This is it.
That's exactly what it was. Like, I definitely thought I was going to die.
Then, well, like, full credit to you to be able to process all that, come to terms with it, and it must be comforting to have that feeling and be able to find your peace at that moment.
Yeah, it lets you. It enables you to see.
Clearly, Okay, they've run out, police haven't come in, you haven't been shot. What's attention in the room?
Like after that, well, you know, we had a moment of being like, oh my god, and then everyone sits down, calms down. So we go back to trying to get him media attention, and you know, the days progressing and we're not getting very far without media attention, and of course there's listening on phones and things like that. He didn't have a phone that day, or if he did,
it was in his backpack, et cetera. But so he's getting other people to use their phones, and at one point we had to recharge phones because everyone's phone's running out. So anyway, there was all of that kind of thing. Yeah, so that's where we are. We are waiting, waiting.
Right, just sitting there waiting. I've experienced in policing times where the adrenaline hits you a life threatening situation and then the calm down and all that, people react differently. And you said that it's amazing people weren't throwing up and that, because I've seen people where the adrenaline's just taken through the roof and then it's come down. Were you guys experiencing that or where were You've explained where you were getting you come from? What about the other people?
Were you relying on the other people in the same situation where you're drawing strength from others?
I'd say, you know, definitely. So you know, just watching everybody else and you know some very smart people in that room actually, you know, and the collective sense of calm and control and waiting, I'd say that that was strong the strongest vibe in the room.
Really my assessment of the situation. If you lot were creating you lot being the hostages creating chaos, he potentially could have reacted very irrationally that it could have been a lot worse.
Yes, that's right, definitely. I mean, you know, for example, like I said earlier, he didn't like my mother's tone. And at one stage he told me, he said, Louisa, keep your mother quiet. And I'm thinking, you're not serious, are you keep my mother quiet?
I've been trying to do that for years.
It's impossible.
So yeah, and I had that little moment. It's the only time I actually spoke to her, and I turned to her and I said, Mum, you're an old lady. You have to be quiet and just not say anything. And you know, the whole time, I'm getting the daggers from her saying like, you know, wait till we get home. You can't talk to me like that. So anyway, but yes, so he was. He was definitely controlling.
And you said his attitude towards the men were a little bit different. Was that he was struggling for his insecurities with power or what was that about it?
Well, I guess he saw them as the most threatening, you know, they could physically overpower him. He softened, you know, like for example, when the younger ones were helping him with the media and social media and the technology and all that kind of stuff with the phones, he softened and a little bit around them, the younger guys, and started to refer to them by name. But certainly he had that keeping the men away. Unfortunately, those three men escaped initially, so that was really good.
Did you, like, you've been in there now six eight hours. Were you trying to process the type of person. Were you trying to get a sense of who he was, like, what triggers him, what doesn't trigger him? What was the sense of where did you think he was coming from? Did you think mental healthful? Did you think terrorists in the truest sense with his ideology? What was it?
This is always the question, isn't it. You know, there's just so much reflection around this, you know, was it really a terrorist event? And I'm thinking, yeah, it really was a terrorist event. But I only thought that after I went to the inquest. In the moment, I thought the few things about him was that he was very articulate, He had an accent of course, so he was making a really big effort to be clear in his instruction actions.
So there was that, So that's why it was articulate, and that he made such a point of being very careful about that, so he's aware of that in himself. He was well. Actually, my mother she noticed that he was very clean and neat and tidy, which I love you.
I love your mom.
You've got to love take.
She was even noticing that he had that. You remember how we used to do it in the in the eighties, which so the iron the seam into our genes, and she said, she commented that he had that, so someone had owned those trousers for him, you know, love is I'm thinking somebody did anyway.
So sorry we laugh at it, but the wisdom of that that is quite telling, Like I wouldn't have been thinking about that, So someone's taken the trouble to because that does tell you a little bit a person. And yeah, the fact that your mum that we're seeing here laughing, but she was the one that something doesn't look right about that, so maybe we should listen to our elders.
Yeah, well see she noticed the detail. She noticed she knew how many people were in the cafe.
I never counted, but.
She knew, and she got an internal she had an internal clock. She knew what time it was, even if she couldn't see her at the time, so she could tell you what time it was when blah blah happened. But yes, that's right, that's the thing about her. But anyway, on the day, I was just trying to keep it quiet.
But yes, okay, So the next significant event that occurred in the siege was the further hostages escaped. Now tell us about that, because that was the two girls.
That's right.
They were hiding or out of sight from him under a table. But I think can clarify if I'm wrong. I think after the first group of hostages escaped, the three that got out first, he said, if anyone else escapes, people are going to be killed.
Exactly, That's exactly what he said. He made it very clear that if anyone else tried to escape that he would kill someone in retribution. Okay, then we all knew that. So these two young girls, they were lint workers. You know, it was a very coincidence. But you know, all the young lint workers were young women. To teach young women. They had the Linch uniform on, which is black with a long apron, and they all had long, dark hair.
So it just happened to be the way it was on the day, right, And so who they were, they kind of you know, were together. But he told us that that, you know, someone was going to get killed. So then we're all sitting there, busy getting it. You're trying to get him this media attention, and then all of a sudden, like that, something happened. What happened? Now, I actually didn't see them escape, but I could tell the vibe something happened as a feeling in there. Something
had happened. But what was that something? So anyway, we're all standing there or the others are going, I don't know what do you mean something? What he said and he was going cops, you know, was at cops around. We can't see the cops, you know, blah blah blah. So everyone's trying to divert his attention. I didn't even realize I'd escaped, because you know, Lind had this giant Christmas Teddy Bear cardboard cutout and they had managed to
somehow crawl. I had been on the floor I'm sick, I'm dying, I'm terrified, And they managed to crawl around behind the Teddy Bear and then sneak out the side door, which I quite in a retrospect, I think, my goodness, you girls, how did you do that? But they managed it, which was really great. So there was two less hostages after the three and then those two. So the thing is, of course, what that created within the media. The media were rightly reporting all day that three people had escaped.
The two people, so they're referring to five people had escaped, And so what happened every hour on the hour on the hour when that was being reported from outside coming and we're listening on the phones, we'd have to say to him, Oh, that's so wrong, that's not true. You know what. The media they're lying, that's not what happened. There's only three escaped, So we had to try and dumb down the fact that two extra had escaped.
Okay, so I understand that there that the two that when they escaped, he didn't realize to escape. There was something change of the atmosphere or all the tension in the room. And then the media are reporting three have escaped. Now five escaped. And you had the sense of mind to convince him that that's just the media stuff.
Fortunately for us, the media we're reporting the five, not oh three escaped and then two escaped. They didn't report it like that that we heard, and so we were able to convince him that you can't trust the media. They're lying, they're making that up, you know, feed into that conspiracy theory thing. It's going on in his head.
But he absolutely it was really touch and go because if he had not, if he had done as my mother had done and counted how many people there were in there, but he hadn't, so he didn't realize that those two girls had gone.
Out, and if he saw those two girls get out, yeah, it's hypothetical now he didn't, but I think you guys would have been at risk or someone would.
Definitely, because he would have had to have killed one of us, because that's what he'd said he'd done, so you know exactly he would have had to follow through.
What was your feeling there, and it's a very complex situation. What was your feeling there when the girls did escape, given the threat that he made, did you were you angry?
Happy?
Can you talk about it?
What right I have to.
Like I said, I didn't see them get out. Everyone was in a slightly different position, and that's something I did not see. And so it took me a little while to actually think, hang on a minute, she's not here, so,
you know. But so it took me a little while to work out the literally something that had gone those girls so and in the moment, I was like, God, how brave are they, you know, to do that, and grateful that they'd gotten out, but also at the same time, I was well aware that if he clicked, if he suddenly had a moment where he went hang on a minute, then we would have been in trouble.
Okay, it's just a horrible, horrible situation, is and all those mixed emotions. How long have you been there? When the two girls escape, Roughly.
I think it's late afternoon by then, I think, yeah.
How are you coping physically and mentally at that point in time, because that's that's the hearts, the stresses right up there.
Definitely, you know, all those kind of moments, and it was it was definitely like that. It wasn't static, It wasn't it was constantly moving and constantly going up and down, and so you know, the for me physically, fortunately, thank goodness, have toilet breaks and different stages. He gave us water, he was not drinking, and very late in the evening he told the cafe workers to go and get like
tea and some food for people. But you know at the point where my mother had stood up and said, I want to go to the bathroom and my daughter needs her medication. See, this is the thing about this man, you see, and that is that when my mother said that, he first thing he did was call me over to sit right next to him. Which I was like, oh no, if the cops come right now, I'm right next to him. So anyways, sit right next to him, and he says,
why do you need medication? So then I explained to him about MS, and he wanted to know everything about MS and how I got it and what it does and how I feel and blah blah blah. So anyway, he says, where is your medication? I said, it's in my handbag, So get Louisa's handbag. So they bring my red handbag over to me and he says, you can get your medication. So I pulled out my rather large top ofware water bottle and I put it on the table, and then I went down into my handbag to get
my medication, which actually was not for a mess. It was just painkillers. And I took two of those tablets. And then so I did all of that and that was great. And then a little bit later on, he puts his hand on my water bottle and he says, Louisa, anytime you need your medication, you don't have to ask me. It's okay. You just help yourself to your medication. And I'm thinking to myself, he thinks my medication is in this water bottle. And I didn't have the heart. I
just said, thank you, brother very much, my god. But you know, so here's this man, right, he's holding a sausage. He has threatened my very life. He's used me, you know, like you said, as a human shield. But then there he is so concerned that I have an illness that needs medication. What is this duplicitous, double minded thinking in this man? You know, it's the same kind of man that tells his mother or his wife or other that he loves her and then assaults.
Her, okay, bashes it to a pop.
It's that same kind of thinking. What is that violence.
So, and I suppose seeing someone like that and appreciating that there are ways of plaicating and manipulating the situation from your point of view with him. Okay, so you are, you're a smart lady. So and yeah, you're sitting there, you're processing all this and thinking, okay, this is the way that we've got to deal with this person. Yeah, we'll have a breaking a sect. But the iconic image of that day was the hostages up with the up
against the windows. Talk us through through that. How that played out.
Well, that started very quickly in the day. He is, you know, having people holding up the flag and standing at the windows with the hands up against the windows, which must have been so disturbing for everybody to see that. And he was rotating people. I mean, once again this was a thought. You know, he didn't leave people up there like that the whole day. He said you get up, you sit down, and he was rotating. And at one point you said to me, your turns stand up at
the window. And I said to him, but I might fall because I had my walking stick. And I showed him my walking stick. Ah, he says, and he says, put the walking stick dest I'll put the walking stick on the floor, and then he kicks the walking stick out of my reach. Okay, right, okay, you don't have to stand at the window. And then a little bit later, after he'd finished giving instructions in that section, he looked at me and he made this sort of like sympathetic face.
You're sorry about the walkings, but you understand, you know, like I would understand that he couldn't let me have my walking stick, And I went, yes, I understand. But you know, it's just how weird, is that right?
It's terribly weird.
Yeah. So you know, like one hand he here's this you hideous, ferocious terrorist, and the other hand he's well mannered and thoughtful, double mindedness, you know. But see that's just how simple it is, like and you imagine living with someone like that one minute violent and next minute sweet.
Okay, let's I know the break. I think you've taken me. Yeah, And as I said, I worked on the case, I did the crime soon, but you've taken me in there in a way that I haven't really appreciated, and the way that you're articulating it. I thank you so much. We're going to leave you in there now and I apologize for that, but when we come back, we'll pick up from where we left off. But yeah, thank you
for sharing these experiences, Louisa. It's just that it's taken everyone into that situation you found yourself in.