The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today there's a listener warning out. The subject matter is going to be fairly distressing. We're going to be talking about domestic and family violence, which has been very prominent in the
media of recent times. There's hardly a week that goes by when someone hasn't been killed as a result of domestic and family violence. As time things are stopped. Today, we're speaking to Lloyd and Sue Clark. They're the parents of Hannah Clarke, who was murdered along with her three children are Leah who is six years old, Leana four years old, and Tray three years old when they were dousing petrol and set alight on the nine eighth of
February twenty twenty. The perpetrator of this horrendous crime was Raum Baxter, Hannah's husband and the father of the three children. It was a crime that shook the nation and sparked a national debate about domestic violence. Well, today we've got Lloyd and Sue Clark in the studio with us, and we're going to sit down and talk about the lead up to what occurred to their family and how they're trying to make things different, bringing in new legislation, changing
things so this type of thing doesn't happen. We need to talk about domestic and family violence, and Lloyd and Sue Clark are people that have been touched on it in the most awful of ways. Sue and Lloyd Clark, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you for having us.
Yeah, no, it's a pleasure, guys. And I think the first time we met was at that charity function Small Steps for Hannah. I've got to say it was an impressive turnout, a lot of people there supporting what you were doing for the small steps for Hannah. I sat beside you guys during the event at the table, and I got to say when I came away from that event,
I was full of mixed emotions. I just had a overwhelming sense of sadness of what you guys had gone through, talking to you and just understanding the impact that's had on you. But I was also inspired. I was inspired by the courageous way that you guys have moved forward from what happened, never forgetting, but moving forward and trying to make a difference. Where do you get the strength
because you're better people than I am. I don't know how I would tape after going through what you guys have gone through.
Family, I think Lloyd and Night. I think Lloyd gives me strength. I give him strength. And we still have our son and four beautiful grandsons, so you've got to be there for them. We felt our world collapsed, and then you think about it, well.
It's not just us.
Our son's world collapsed too, and we all need to be there for each other. And I think and I think Hannah's still with us, pushing. She always was a bit of a puppeteer, and I think she's up there directing things.
She's still controlling that, I think.
So yeah, definitely, yeah, But I mean we're just everyday Australians, LU call Australians who unfortunately we're given a platform you know that no one would want. We never wanted it. But I just saw something there that well held the whole world scene this, This is absolutely shocking. Who does this? Who who is a sort of person does that to their own children? You know. So we thought we need
to do something. And all these professionals were coming out and saying, oh, it's a typical coercive control, and I said, what's coers of control? What the hell are they talking about? We didn't know anything about it. And then you know, it was going, oh, well we need to change a coercive control. Oh it's like a handbook, they're saying. So that's when well, we really need to start a conversation. Let's start talking, let's get people moving, let's try and
get a move and do something. And yeah, we thought, well we'll do let's make a foundation and we'll start raising money and we'll maybe do some education, but that took a while to get come around.
And that's and we're going to talk about that in detail, what you're doing, because it's impressive and such a testament to the hammer and the children that they're never going to be forgotten because of what you guys are doing. But you made the point your average sort of knock about Australians. I'm looking at that function and I think you actually said that to me. You said, look, we don't know why we're thrust into this. You're the center
of attention of the huge function. There was politicians coming up.
I think the general attention seekers.
Well that's a sense I got, Like you're sitting there and I'm thinking you two would just prefer to be at the local pub, just having a quiet meal on your own, rather than being the center of attention. But you put yourself out there, and look, I've got to say it's remarkable and I never cease to be amazed with people that I came across during my career as a homicide detective. But people I sit down in the podcast because I think, you how do you get yourself
out of bed the next day after something like this? Happens. But so you said family, and I suppose that brings it on. You can't just forget the rest of the people.
That's right to me, that's selfish.
I know I'm I cry every day, but I think you need to be there for the rest of the family.
Everyone. We all need each other's support.
Really, I see with you two still being together because I've seen trauma and things in family before, and you made the point so that I'm there there for Lloyd. Lloyd's there for me. Sometimes I would imagine you're in the dark place and Lloyd's got to be the strength, and then vice versas. Is that how it plays out?
It does, and we both understand. You know, I'll say loud, yeah it's not a good day to day, and he gets it, and he just lets me be, talks to me if I want to talk, or and he doesn't look at me weird when I just cry for random reason.
I think that's understandable. I'll say, and I don't use the word beautiful very often on I catch killers podcast, but I think your relationship is beautiful. And I'm not saying you're beautiful, Lloyd.
We can only take it take it so far.
But what I saw that day, that you were there supporting each other and that it's you know, it was an inspiration. And I've seen some ship in my life, but that, to me, I thought, Wow, impressive people.
So I think the other thing too, Gary. It was just before COVID too.
Yes, that's right.
So a couple of weeks out, all of a sudden, the whole world is just shut down. We couldn't go anywhere where. Everyone had to be locked indoors. So in a way, that gave us time to grieve. We could do what we wanted to do. What we did every day would get up of a morning, we had a couple of dogs and get the dogs and go walk. We do a couple of k's and we just went further and further and that's all. And we would walk, talk, cry why is this happening? What are we going to do?
All those questions? We just sorted it out in the bush, spotting Koala's wallaby here and there and having the dogs with us. You know, so that gave us a bit of solid I had no pressure. People couldn't come around because everyone was locked down.
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense, because I did get the sense that you'd been thrusty put on this platform, and then that would have been the recheck that you could just step away and he heal yourself. And it's interesting that you say just doing the little thing getting up each day, because I speak to people that suffer post aumatic stress, whether it be military or police, and the narrative seems to be, you've got to just keep doing something.
You've got to start, you've got to get up in the morning, you've got to get a routine, You've got to just keep stepping forward. Is that the sort of thing that you guys have.
Definitely, Yeah, it does help to keep that that routine.
Nothing too Bob Atkinson. I got in touch with us, but well very early in the piece, and I want to know where you could help, and he said, look, I've got this book. Can I give you this book to read? And it was about trauma and it was
very good. It's sort of put a few things in perspective for me, you know, learning about how people moved on from their kids being killed by gang members and you know whatever sort So I thought, well, yes, you've got to be like John Wayne, You've actually just got to get up, pack your bag up, get on that horse and start riding and you know, continue on. You don't get over it, but you've got to move on. You can't just sit there in a hole and just think, well,
life's doom and gloom. Let's try and make it a better world. Our wills collapse, but let's try and make that it doesn't happen to anyone else. And the sad thing was twelve months later Kelly Wilkinson went nearly the same way. So we sort of.
Copycat it it must, and we've just come from one that was on the north coast of New South Wales recent times with the father's killed a two year old child. I would suggest every time you hear that it would reopen the pain again.
It doesn't. I cry every time and sadly it just happens too often.
Way too often at the moment, but a woman every four days I need.
To talk about it.
Well. I think we now as a society and it takes a Politicians react to the voice of the people, sometimes a bit slowly, but I think they're understanding now. The media have got hold of it. Enough is enough with what's going on with domestic and family violence. We've got a circumvent. So we'll we'll talk during this podcast about your thoughts on the way that can be done, and we'll have an interesting discussion there. Let's talk about Hannah and the children first of all, because I think
they haven't been forgotten. They shouldn't be forgotten. Now, I've got to say, in preparing for this and knowing everything that I do about the matter, that Hannah was an impressive person.
She was she had a smile that lit up a room, and she would put her troubles behind and put everyone else's in front. She was always there to help people if she could, and people didn't know what was happening with her. I knew a fair amount, and as it got worse, I knew more because she would ring me up and she'd just had to get it off a chest and vent to somebody, and which made it very difficult for me to then be civil when I would
have to face him. But yeah, Hannah. People loved her, and we were surprised after she passed how many people came up to us and said, oh, Hannah served me, and she at athlete's foot. Hannah sold me shoes. I'll never forget her. She was so bubbly and she wasn't perfect.
None of us are, so none of us are. But that comes across in the way that she conducted herself. So did you see that in her personality when she was a younger child like that? Oh? Yes, she always shining.
Watch me, watch me, yea.
I loved the stage, any stage were doing a cartwheel or a twirl.
And yeah yeah.
And the kids, they were just wonderful. They had great futures.
Break it down with the kids three, four and six, they start to show their personalities. Oh yeah, what do we got? Break them down?
Ali was a real She was sassy, very sasy, very sassy, like a grandma. Her and I now she would have been eleven now we have been having some good arguments.
She was.
One day we were in the park and there was it was a stork. It was in the distance, and she said to me, there is a plover and I said, I don't think it is hun I reckon.
I'd know, Nannie, she's checking you on.
And even her father, he'd storm out of the house in a mood. She'd slam the door behind him and don't come back.
Really, oh she was.
And he would FaceTime her after Hannah had left, and Alia wouldn't want to speak to him. I would say, you don't have to, but Hanrahud say yes she does, and ali one night's talking to him, she goes, well, anyhow, I got to go wash my hair. No one knows where that came from.
She just came out.
Maybe it came from Grandma.
She was just a madam. And Leanna was a cheeky monkey.
She was a little monkey.
Yeah.
I carried her everywhere up until the day she died. And I used to say to her, how much longer do I have to carry you for? And she'd say till I'm seven. I have no idea what the significance of seven was. Obviously to her that was a good age.
But she is not stupid. She was going to get take the easy path as long as she could.
Before she had Ah always always conned.
And Trey, he was just a little ball of energy. Yeah, his little legs going up and down and you kick a football pass, you know for a three. He had skills. Yeah, they all had their own little individual skills. Yeah. I said Aliyah was smart. She was going to be a teacher, and see that.
She was very, very smart, very She could read better than a father.
That used to be so funny.
He'd be reading reading to the other two little ones, and she'd come along and say, oh, you're not very.
Good at that.
I have to correct him.
Yeah, I mean, I mean Leanna was just a fascinator. Should change her clothes three or four times a day.
Fashion stuff, isn't that?
Isn't it fun at that age, at that such those early ages that they're showing their personality and you can see you can almost go okay and no where this is going to cause grief during the teenage years. This is going to be Yeah, but you sound like you're very close too, Like what were the dynamics and the family, Like how often did you see them?
And a couple of times a week. Yeah, I had them every Friday and Saturdays.
We often spent with them.
On Saturday morning gym class. Who we used to do body classes with him. Actually he was a very good gym coach, but just a total lunatic but knew his stuff. Always sort of said, you need to move, you need to be flexible, you need to be able to get up and down off of the ground, you know, especially as you get older. Because he'd get old, people come and say, I just want to lift weight. Someone build up my biceps. I want to cut down, he said, But can you get up and down off the ground
easy enough? Oh, what do I need to do that? Well, you need to do that for your kids, for your grandkids. So it was good in that way, and the stuff that we did was good. I really enjoyed it. But it was just his carry on. He expected everyone to be like an a grade football you know, or a top athlete. But we just wanted to go there and spend a bit of time, do a bit of fun.
And couldn't didn't have that emotional intelligence to understand what people wanted. Just before we moved past Hannah and the children. And another thing that came out the generosity of spirit of Hannah in that even when things were going bad, she still saw the importance of the kids having a connection with the father and even had empathy for the father that he's missing the kids and all that was that her nature, that empathy very much.
So she really felt for him. She wanted to make sure he had fifty to fifty care of the children. She really pushed for that. But he played games, he wouldn't return them on time when always half an hour late because no one could tell him what to do with his children, and then he started to misbehave like that and she couldn't trust him. He would go off
with the children, not answer his Phonechristmas Day. He'd kept the kids ransom for a couple of hours prior to Christmas, and I forbid him to come Christmas Day, but Lloyd and Hannah talked me down and said, he's the father, he's entitled to be there. He should be there. I thought he'd lost his chance. In my books, you get one chance. But yeah, they took me around and he was very good on the Christmas Day, I must say.
And it's interesting that you say that in the Lloyd and Hannah saying, well, wish you would you say there's no clear path, is there? No, it's a judgment.
I was about myself. If I was in his shoes, I'd want to see my kids on Christmas Day. And I thought, well, okay, he can come for a couple of hours, I said. When I went around there to see him, he said, well, come on in, and I said, no, I don wan't come in. I said, I'm just telling you now, you're welcome to come over for Christmas morning. So the kid's going over in their presence, you be there at six o'clock and or whatever it was, And I said, you know, have a couple of hours, and yeah,
we couldn't get rid of him. He was there at eleven.
Hours doing the right thing. I think a warning sign, and we talk about this domestic and family violence, is when any partner, whether it's a female or the male, starts using kids as manipulation in the relationship, that pawns to him, and that to me, speaks so much about the quality of the person, no matter what's happened in the relationship. The kids shouldn't be used as the pawns
in the relationship. And it's a warning sign, and it's something that says something about the character of the person that they're prepared to use the children as a bargainship.
Well, then the very next day, Boxing day, that's when he kidnapped Layana. So he was very good one day, but in the back of his mind, obviously he was thinking what he was going to do the next day. And I said, I'll take the kids down they got skateboards and scooters for Christmas, take them down along the river and they can ride him down there. We said, oh, we'll come too. Then he said can I come along? Wouldn't mind coming? So we said yeah, and we said
to hand and said we'll come. She said no, no, it's fine. And of course, what as you do? He just grabs Leana, shucks her in the car and takes off, screaming out the window, saying, so you've done this, Hannah, it's all your fault.
Okay. What when did he first become? When did they first get together? And when did he start? When did you first meet him? What were your impressions first? Up Rowan Baxa would say his name? What were the impressions when they got together?
I didn't like him at first because he was eleven years older.
How old was he and how old.
Was Hannah was twenty he was thirty one.
That's a big life game, Yeah, I thought, so, life stage difference.
And he was still living with his partner and child. But I don't know whether Hannah said it to pacify me or it's what she believed from him. It was purely just for the child.
You know.
The relationship was long over, which we found out later wasn't so. Yeah, and then he did he won us over, right, He loved Bob.
Does yeah, Like now you look back at it and it was manipulative or was that? Do you think it was genuine when he said love Bob new he was a perfect person for.
Oh yeah, I think he well, he was out to win us over. But he would invite us to dinners and places, and Hanna would even say to me, I didn't want you to come. I also don't ask him like, but he would, so he eventually won us over. I must say we thought he was lovely and we thought he generally loved her.
What about Hannah's brother Nathan? How was Nathan at the time? What was his sense of.
He would have been eighteen.
Yeah, okay, he didn't particularly like him, and they clashed a bit, quite a bit. Because that's very good physically, like in gymnastics and trampolining, and that was one thing that Rowan always wanted to be like that. He was very good at lifting weights and things, but not flexible, couldn't do somersaults and flips and things.
And so he would a pride of himself on these physicality and then young Nate it didn't appreciate it and can do this and do that, and.
Nearly the same way. Can it nearly run the speed and it could do flips, yeah, handing basults and stuff like that. So that's what he wanted to do. So he used them to help coach him and.
So he could get it right okay, And.
He was quite a show pony rant.
He'd be on the beach and once Hannah actually taught him how to do a back flip and he would do him on the beach and think he was hot, hot stuff, and it'd be funny, and he'd say to that you should do it, and now I'd be don't need to And then in the end that would do it and it would be better, and you could see he really regretted he'd pushed.
To do it. Interesting, interesting dynamics. Very So how long were they together before they got married and what was the progression of the relationship.
They were together Probably four years before they married, and that was he was prepared to propose to He actually had a ring hidden in my cupboarde probably twelve months prior to that. Didn't it before he actually proposed because Nad ended up getting engaged and he didn't want to follow on NAT's foots. It was all the thing. So he held off.
Did you, like, you have a relationship, You've got your daughter, she's twenty. You're thinking, okay, well, maybe it'll just peter out. You can't tell them what to do, so you've got to let it run its natural course. When it got to the fact, okay, well they're making a commitment to be together now in a marriage. Did that cause you concern or did you think, okay, well maybe it will work. What was going through your mind?
I thought it would work at that stage. I think he wasn't showing his true colors.
Yeah, we didn't see any of those warnings side red flags. I think you know, occasionally he had a road rage fit while we're with him, and I thought, geez, got a sharp temper. I didn't even need to crack off at those people for that. You know, we'll get out of the car and kick the door, you know, just get in the car, mate, let it go.
Well again, the little little warning.
Side they were the things. Then further down the track, three or four years down the track, I look back and go, well, ship, I should have seen that. Yeah, there was little signs there. You know, there's rage that just came out. And if he got beaten at the gym doing awad, he'd find some excuse why he got beaten. All the other one didn't count properly, didn't do their numbers,
so he was always he had to win. One of those people had to win at everything, and even playing with the kids to be down the beach, came to race and you'd have to trip them over and push them over and beat them.
That's a shallow victory.
Come on, let him win once in a while.
Well maybe, and you know what we're what we're talking through, and I you know, I think maybe people take these things away. We talk red flags. We see them now hindsight, it's a wonderful thing. But we talked and this is later on where they manipulate the used children as a pawn. But if you've got someone that's road rage, I've never understood road rage. And people think I'm a cranky person, but I haven't got time to get caught up in
road rage. And I'm always astounded why some people just lose their shit because someone's made a mistake driving the car.
That's right.
So if people are listening, if you're looking at someone and there's road rage, will have a deeper looking what's going on. There so they get married. The wedding passed without incident.
He was very involved in the wedding. That shocked me. Most men are quite happy to turn up on the day. Leave me out of it, don't you know, I'll turn up.
I put my hand up for that one.
Oh no.
He was had to taste all the food, he picked the venue.
All of it, and from ten to go elate because it would have been not cheaper for us. Yeah, here's ten K. You're going to America, get married over there or whatever. No, no, no, we want to have this big night.
And he doesn't. And I don't know him. I'm only trying to get a picture of him. But he doesn't strike me as a person that it would be for his own sense wanting to be concerned about the wedding. It's almost like he's putting on a show.
It was.
It was, especially in hindsight looking back, it was. It was a big production too.
Look look how much I love. Look what a beautiful person I am. I'm a romantic and yeah, the wedding's just got to be perfect.
Until he opened up the wishing well the next day. Oh geez, such and such didn't give us much, did they oh, do you know how much they're worth? And they didn't give us much.
As Okay explained.
Is that, Look, you had the wedding down at Kingscliff, so people had to travel down spend it. That's against there, you know, so you've been graced by their presence, You've asked them down. You think you're not going to get a whole a lot because you know you've made them travel, spend, spend money, and then spend more money on you.
Well that might that might be another warning sign her own rage and not gratitude for gifts given. Like that's that's weird, isn't it? It certainly is. Was there concerns that his demeanor or did the relationship change when they got married in that I've got you now, I don't have to impress, not straight away.
And Hannah was pregnant when they got married, as it turned out, by accident. Actually, well she was up for a new script of the pill and she said, he's really old and I'm young. I'm not going to reknew that the pill. She was wanting to have children and she has I'm not going to feel pregnant that quick anyway, Well, she was fourteen, so she was fourteen weeks.
Pregnant when they married.
And yeah, so Aliyah came along and things weren't too bad. He was very proud of Aliyah. But again, he was one of those fathers that everyone thought was wonderful. He'd changed nappies when he was out. People would see him do that. Didn't do a thing at home.
Yeah, okay, a show pony that coming across. The other kids came along.
Hannah was pregnant with the Leah Leana. Sorry when they opened the gym, and that's when things really started spirally.
Now and what I understand, they opened the gym together and people gravitated towards Hannah. But rowan that it was hard to get clients because of his demeanor or his lack of emotional intelligence or understanding of human nature.
Yeah, he was like a drill sergeant at first.
Yes, they had a lot of clients. Everyone came. You know, we had a big open day and he signed up a lot of people. But unfortunately, he said, with that drill sergeant attitude and not giving leeway, mate, do the challenges. Even you don't get the big, big people in and you know, train them down, you know, you know they're going to come for twelve or pay for twelve weeks. Hey, if they don't come, they don't come. I know you didn't like that if you paid your money to have
an excuse not to be there. Yeah, which was just silly, you know, like he still had numbers. You get him paid for it. What doesn't matter, you know, Let's just move on, you know, let them go and then do it again and get more people in. I think we worked it out right near the end. He didn't care about that. He didn't care if the gym sort of failed as much because it was his gym. He could train when he wanted to train, and he could train
however he wanted to train. No one could tell him what to do and how to do it.
So he was king, Yeah, I get a sense, and yeah, he wanted to be the man like as in my gym, look at me. Everyone that comes in is got to look at him. And I've seen them in Jim, those type of things, I reckon they're wankers that the struc around.
No one can be better than him. It was his gym. He had to be top dog.
He had a problem with people who actually had earned a lot of money, you know, who had money. Oh, how did they get all that money?
Oh?
They should, you know. But he would like to, you know, crawl up to them and get their money off them and get give them vouchers or get to go to their restaurants or stuff like that for free. But he was always always hated people who had money because he never had it. And when he got money, he was just instead of paying bills. Oh, I'll shout coffee or come on around, and he'd splash it around. And you've
got bills to pay first. And we'd walk out to their house and Chandler and to build these letters hanging out a letterbox, and we'd get them out and walk in and go, I think you got some bills here. Oh, and you can see they've been sitting there for a while. I don't worry about that. If you don't look at them, you don't need to worry about them. Hey, hang on, you need to pay your bills.
Yeah, it makes sense. Look, we're not psychologists, obviously, but it's starting to paint a picture, isn't it. It's this bravado. It's very narcissistic in the way everything's about him. And yeah, again, warning signs if people are looking at it like someone that's It seems to me like he didn't want to actually pay his due. Is he just wanted to reap the rewards. And I want the people to look up
to him. And he's the man. He runs a gym, he's got money, he's got life, he's got this beautiful wife, he's got these kids, perfect relationship. It's a lot of just pretense for us.
And that's what he went very well on social media. Oh yeah, photos of having a great time with the family, look at us and he had of looking good or whatever. But he was very prudish though with her, like you wear a bikini down the beach, but wouldn't let her walk off the beach up to with the showers that have a shower of shed to put something on again.
But he could photograph her in the bikini and post it on social media.
Yeah, but that that shows and it's interesting. I didn't think the conversation gave this way, But I'm fine. That fascinating. The sense of the type of person he is, that jealousy is just is shown there. Like if you're with someone, you love someone, you celebrate their joys and all that. But he wanted Hannah's mind. I owner, and I don't want anyone looking at her away from me like that.
That's what she dreaded his birthday every year because he would just be unbearable because a lot of the boys would have a dig geez, mate, you're punching above your weight?
What are you doing with her?
And every year someone would say it, and that would be oh, she dreaded it.
Really, I think that's where it was going because he was getting older and slower. He was starting to worry that Hannah was a lot younger, and then the things started getting more He started more controlling as it went from there. If you look, I suppose you sat down to the timeline and I reckon, Like su said, every birthday he'd get cranky and cranky, he's losing a bit more hair, and.
Which Hannah would point out and he didn't like she would find little.
So he had this like, to me, sounds like a very insecure, fragile ego. But it was all Bravardo. But there wasn't much substance under scratch scratch the surface, and so everything was sort of attacking his sense. He's deluded sense of self worth. Yes, yeah, well again, if people are listening. We know people of this type, and you know, if the relationships not right, don't don't go down that path.
Just like to say, people do know someone like that who's working away, don't be a bystander. You stand up and say, hey, let's go and have a conversation, let's have a cup of coffee, let's sit down and have a beer, whatever, But talk to them about it. It's not cool. You know. We don't want society going down the path that we're heading now where there's not a really fair relationship anymore. People are just having to go they going to be king or they want to do this. What's happened to respect?
That? That respect is something? And I think and with the conversation we had the other other day, Lord, we're talking about you men have got to sit down with other men and mate the way you're treating your wife or that. It's not because invariably we stand back and go, oh, it's sad business. This is the male way of dealing with things. Like women get into the nitty gritty of it in the conversations, but whereas men just go, it's not real good unless we're confronted with it. Where we
have to step in. We tend to avoid those those conversations, and I think, you know, sometimes things can be circumvented if people get in there and call someone out for it.
He did have He did have a dig at me when Hannah left. He said, mate, what didn't you come to me and say something? I said, I couldn't. I said, I tried, We tried it. I said, every time we try and talk to you, I said, you just go off the handle. So I think if you've got someone like that, that's when you've got a red flag and they really need to get help. So you've got to get them to a professional person to try and help.
To get help. When did it get to the point when and soe you said, Hannah started confiding in you. When did it get to the point where you guys thought, Okay, this is we've got problems here. This is getting out of control.
After Leana was born, it was starting to about and Hannah was getting ready to leave, and then she felt pregnant with Trey, which I think she was in denial because no one found out she was pregnant till after four months, and I think she was not wanting to be And it was and that trapter again, especially when he found out he was having a son.
Yeah, I could imagine the ego would have gone in the wayver drive. Yeah, my son's going to be everything I couldn't be.
Oh yeah, Yeah. He was hard on Trey. Trey couldn't be a silk couldn't. Yeah, and Trey was a mummy's boy. You know, he's only little.
But again, that's a personality. I can see the mile away. You're going to be bigger, stronger, Yeah. Yeah, Okay, So stuck in that situation. Then again, this is just the life, isn't it. This is the way things roll. And you can understand Hannah would be trying to hang on to some degree of hope that we can turn things around. You've got three kids now. People are vulnerable in the relationship like that, especially women, to walk away break up
with the husband. And you've got three kids to look at.
And you told your a bad mother, and you're going to damage those children. You have no idea what damage you'll do to those children to take them away from me?
Is that the that's the narrative that he was feeding there and into a good person that can be soul destroying.
She was a broken, broken person. When she came to us, she'd lost her strength, Like you know, she she made that comment before she got killed. You know, I am a strong woman. I'm better for being a strong woman now and I'll get over this. But when she first came down our house, I could see she wasn't the
strong Hannah that we used to know. He had beaten her down over a couple of years, and you know, just that constant barrage of look, move your fat ass, or you know, you need to lose a bit more weight, you know, and come home and say, oh, this place is a.
Mess, attacking her self, estume every chance, and that that's where and when we talk coercive control, that that's very thing that we talk about. Yeah, beating it down doesn't necessarily have to be physical violence because it's but that emotional that control. So you saw her change from that. What age are we talking now?
What's she was thirty one when he killed her, so probably twenty seven twenty eight things were progressively and its getting worse.
It should be such a great time in life, you know, that should be Yeah, at that time, she's got the beautiful kids and everything. When did she decide that she had to take a step step away.
She was well before Trey was born.
She was kind of she'd made up in her mind she was going, but it took another three years before she actually had the guts. I suppose, and she knew. I kept saying to it, you can come home anytime. Oh mom, there's no room, And I made my bed, I'm gonna lie in it, and I'm like, you don't, you don't, And it was hard.
It saddens me because she just comes across as such a beautiful human being and I can see all those emotions from a decent, kind, nice human being, and yeah, she's stuck in that situation. So how did she actually muster up the courage to say this is it?
It took quite a while.
We prepared for a bit over six months we were preparing, Wing got bunk beds in and Hannah actually started buying some clothes she was never allowed to wear and screwing them at our house. And she got her passport and the kid's birth certificates and things which she was slowly leaving at our house.
So she had us safe.
And there would be quite a few times she said to us, Okay, this weekend, I'm leaving, and at the time, she was starting to suspect he had listening devices in the house because he took her away one weekend.
Had it, oh this romantic.
I don't know if there's any evidence of it, but I wouldn't put it past someone like that with that sort of obsession, that would have monitored her in some way.
They found eight iPhones in the house after Hannah left, strategically put.
Around Yeah, that's scary, isn't.
It is?
And well she knew this one time before she left. It was Torrian bro which is actually coming up. She'd qualified to compete, which is quite a I think, and he hadn't. He wanted to go individually, he hadn't qualified,
and she had for a team. So this was for Torrium Pro Big CrossFit Games, and he hadn't qualified individually, so he decided he'd be in her team, and she didn't want him, And she was apologizing to one of the team members while driving her home, saying, I'm sorry, he's such an asshole.
Yeah blah blah.
Blah, And she got home and he had a go d He knew what she said, and the excuse was that Aliah must have been playing with Hannah's phone and somehow sent it to him, and Hannah knew that was so he dropped out of the team, thinking that would mess it up for everybody. Hannah was at the gym taking the five o'clock class in the morning. Hannah got home, him and the children had disappeared and wouldn't answer his phone,
so she was hysterical. Rang me I came over and she thought he may take the kids to the coast. That was their happy place and our son and daughter in law live at the coast. So Hannah rang Stacy, our daughter in law, to say, could you keep an eye out see if you see him? But none of us realized Nat was back from the mines. He'd gotten back a day early. Nat had answered the phone and anyway, when Rowan finally came home, he said to Hannah, I
can't believe you called your mother and your brother. So if he'd checked her phone, she died Stacy's number, but he knew Hannah had been speaking to her brother.
Okay, so he was doing cover like trying to.
Listen and turning up at places where he shouldn't know, and she was and.
Was there any suggestions so of getting police involvement in this point in time, or did she was a plan just to Okay, I'm out of here and I'm living with my parents, or I'm going here, but our relationship is finished. There was no involvement from police at that point in.
I didn't want to. She would scare.
She was so scared any involvement would antagonize him and make things worse. So and even when she had said she was thinking of leaving to him it was for a break, she would never say it was forever, okay.
And I understand that because I don't think she would have been able to walk out the door if she said I've never seen you again.
Oh no, because he said there was no way she was to take his children, and that wasn't happening. But eventually, after a lot of mistries, she was at the gym early one morning and she was talking to Nicki and lou two of her close friends, and she was talking about she's got to go, how bad it was, and then Nicki just said, well, is he at work this morning?
Because he was not going to work either so that he could keep an eye on her, And Hannah said, he's actually gone today, and that Nicki said right, Okay, we don't need to do our gym class. Let's go, and Nicki kind of took control. Hannah went into the house. The kids were allowed she went and got a lear out of school, and the kids were allowed to pick two toys each and she left the house with three
garbage bags for the lot of them. And they left Hannah's car at the local McDonald's down in Nicki's house because he didn't know where Nicki left lived, and spent the night at Nicki's house.
Okay, just in case if he had a tracker or something.
On the car.
Knowing the way that you guys have described him and what we understand, he would have been in a fit of rage at this. It was just he would have just lost his shit.
Over the He was in a rage, and then it resulted into sobbing uncontrollably.
He was ringing me all day. Do you know where she is?
He was angry at first, and I was saying I have no idea, and that he would ring me crying, Oh.
This is killing me. I need my children.
I mean. One of the many forums that have covered Hannah's story, there was talk with how many people he would phone and just cry and I think it might have been said it on one of the shows that he did. He found out that he'd phone people just on the periphle and just tell them, making himself out to be the good guy, the victim.
That's right. He played the victim very well, but he was the victim.
People he disliked and hadn't spoken to for ages. He ran to tell them his side of the story.
There's that. There's that clip that has been publicly shown where he and Hannah are pulled over in the car and the cars Reggie, which put my hand up, since they've taken those stickers off those windows. Yes, bring back the stickers. It'll save us all a lot of money.
But they were just not good at that. That would have been probably the second or third time that time, right, Okay, Yeah, he just let it go. And it was always her car too, so they had two cars. And then of course you would have seen that in the footage if you picked it up. He goes, but it's her car.
Yeah. I just the way he reacted was just it made me cringe watching it. And that's seeing him sort of unfiltered. This is not the pretense he's put in on and just yeah, not we're in it together where it was your fault you did this.
And just he's your problem. Yeah, but what he didn't realize he's the driver. Yeah, he's got to check that. So he got fined, not her, And of course we got called and said, oh, can you come and pay you pay the rent.
Was there any concern of physical violence? Did she ever say that he physically assaulted her?
Well, in my point of view was that I didn't think it was physical violence. But he did break her watch and he did throw her phone across the room and things like that, which I have since been informed that that is a form of physical violence. But he never really hit her. He slammed a gate into her leg when she was heavily pregnant with Leana because she disrespected him. But he hadn't actually physically and that's what she kept saying to me. But he's never hit me.
And therein lies the misconception that with all these domestic violence situations and that yeah, it's got to be physical, that we've got to see the woman with a black eye too. What happened, she walked into a door. That type of narraty.
That's what hit us so hard. Was why didn't we know about this? Why do we know this? Coercive control is so dangerous?
That coercive control and speculation here we're just sort of brainstorming. But he seems like such a manipulation that he knows that if he slapped her all there was a bloody nose or a black eye, police are going to be involved. He's going to be charged, he's going to be shamed, he's going to be the wife beater.
All that he knew I would come after him.
Yeah, well I'd say there'll be a lot of fit mates it might come after.
Right, Ok, yeah, so we're scared in kindsight.
I look back now, I actually said to him on their wedding day, if you hurt my daughter, I will hunt you down. There's no way you can hide. And I don't even know why I said that.
But yeah, therein lies and the coersive is so manipulative, Like it's not the dumb bloke that's lost his temper and slaps someone and then gets charged, And it's control control. It's about your image, the perceptions, everyone's perception.
And when you look at it, at his personality and his demeanor. We've alsot of discussed about him. Yes, he lost his shit, So he wasn't an irrational thinker. If the kid one of the.
Kids, no lateral thinking?
Was that no lateral thinking, or that if one of the kids hurt themselves he couldn't handle it. If Hannah wasn't there, and if he was involved in playing a game they hurt himselves, well he just lost it and he would ring Sue. I think you know Aliah needs stitches. You know, I threw a cushion at her and she's running down the hall and she it hit her and she hit her head in the door jam. You know, he just oh, I got blood everywhere. What can I do?
I got I arrived over there, he rang me, I left work, got over there. He's sitting on the floor rocking, crying while the pool kids just holding something on her head. So yeah, I had to take control of the pool kid because he said to me, can you come?
Can you come?
Because Hannah was at the gym, and he said, she only wants you because she wanted mum. But Hannah wasn't there, so then she wanted me.
Okay, So Hannah's moved out with the kids, stayed at the friend's place. When did make an official. Was she staying with you guys or what?
What was it?
She the next next day moved into our place. That was a Saturday.
Signing the sulky phone calls from him.
Oh yeah, yep.
So she moved in on the Saturday with us. And then this Sunday she was talking to him on the phone and she said to me, I'm going to go and have a coffee with him, And I'm like, are you sure? Yeah, yeah, it'll be all right. So anyway, they went and had a coffee. Next thing, she comes back with him and it's like, oh, let's all have tie for dinner, and Lord and I are looking at each other, and anyway, Lloyd and him went out and
bought the tie. And I said to Hena, are you okacious? No, I'm not, she said, but I'll go home with him tonight and then in the morning when he's at the gym, I'm going for good. So I don't know why she felt she had to go back that night and she was begging me to go to the gym so that things look normal.
And yeah, she.
Went home that night with the kids, and the next morning, as soon as he left at five in the morning, she was up and drove down to her brother's house and stayed there for about three days.
That's again it goes in and you talked about the self esteem being chipped away with all the negative comments, that he'd throw it there and he still had control that just come back for one night, we can talk about it, and you can see how people weaken to that.
Well, while she was out of brother's, she just put the kids down to have a sleep and he rang her and Nat turned around and she's picking all this stuff up frantically, and he said, what are you doing. She said, I've got to go home. He said, I have to go home. I've got to bring the kids hi, And I said, no, you don't have to go anywhere, and he kept her there. But I liken it to
almost like an alcoholic the victims. I could hear Hannah on the phone to him, and I could hear her weakening, almost like you have to have that drink.
It was. And I would say to.
Her, if he rings you and you feel you've got to go back to him, wring me or Nikki and we will almost talk you down.
But I think that's that's a valid point. So I think they are broken down they're almost addicted to that toxic drama that has been their life.
That's right control.
What they say is gospel, what they think, but they don't realize because they've been beaten down and it's been drummed into them. You're no good. You can't live without me. The kids can't live without me. They need their father. You know, I am the best you know and where you.
Go and everything that I understand about Hannah tells me she's not that person. But that's how destructive that type of manipulation can be.
What happened was at the end is she finally put that wall up. She learned to put that wall up and say, no, I'm a strong woman. I'm not going back to you. You're never going to have me. And I don't ever think she ever said that to him, because there's always we'll just let it, give it six months and by then we're hoping you'd meet someone else and move on. But she got to that point and I think he just started spiraling. Then he realized he wasn't going to get it back. Yeah, all the kids.
So then that's when he formulated his plan. It was all pre meditated. It wasn't a spur of the moment sort of thing. It was pre meditated what he did.
Hey, guys, have you ever wondered what goes on behind the headlines of a gang more or shooting, Then you need to listen to crim City. Join crime reporters Mark Murray and Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details of crimes unfolding on Sydney streets and share the stories that don't make the papers. The latest season of crim City is out now. Listen early and ad free on Crime
x plus on Apple Podcasts Today Police Involvement. Then, I was heartened by the fact that there was some good commentary about when Hannah went to the police, that someone fully understood what was going on, because I cringe, and I think we're at the point where we've improved with policing a talk across the country where someone walks in, well, there's nothing we can really do. People are starting to
understand the dramatic effect that domestic and family violence. But do you want to tell us about the when she went to the police, and she was very buoyed by the fact that the police officer seemed to understand and care.
She certainly was.
I wanted her to go and get a DVO as we call them in Queensland out on him the day she came back and moved into our place, and she was so scared that would antagonize him, but I managed to talk her into at least as at least go up to the police station, talk to the police, see what you can do when you know, and if you have a case. And he got a lovely young policewoman at the front desk who I suspect may have been a victim at one stage in her life herself, so
she really understood what was going on. And Anna was telling her about being forced to have sex every night and she was like, oh honey, that's rape. You know, you could have him for rape, and she was writing it all down and she was so wonderful. She agreed not to do a DVO, though she did tell Hannah
she had plenty of grounds to take one out. And this police woman also worked at police beat at the local shopping center and she would pop in and check it on Hannah at work regularly to see how she was. And Hannah came home after that first visit and said to me, she believed everything I said, Mum, and I'm not going crazy, and you know I have I can charge him with rape, and she was just.
It's interesting that that was Hannah's thought process. And I can understand someone if they'd been beaten down like Hannah had been and just manipulated, you start thinking, am I just making this up? Am I just? Am I looking for something more in the relationship. That's just not normal.
But you've been told that too. Yeah, yeah, perpetrators And he was good at it. He would do something, and if Hannah then bought it up, it was, oh, that's not what happened. No, I didn't do that.
So then you start a second guest. Yeah, okay, So the situation where it got to the point where Hannah was killed and three children were killed, was there something that was a catalyst for that that you think looking at what happened, what stirred that on?
All I can think of is we'd had a great on the Saturday. We'd had a great family day down at SeaWorld, the whole family, and Hannah had posted it and how wonderful things were. And I don't know, he seemed quite upset after that.
Well, after when the inquest was on, some facts came out there that we didn't know about. And one was they found this message on his in his notes. Yes, that was dated back and.
It was like Australia date Australia.
But it was like, oh well you call it a not a.
Confession, no more of it was almost a suicide note from.
Dying declaration or from Hannah. Yeah, okay, well I'll put my homicide had on there that then he's thinking of it at that time.
It was written all about I'm sorry, you'll be I'm sorry, the children still love you, Hannah, but you've bought this on yourself, something like this, and so we weren't sure it was nobody was going to leave because he killed the kids or killed her, but it seemed like it was going to kill her.
And that was because the day that he killed Hannah and the children was nineenth of February. Yeah, and so we're talking Australia day twenty sixth of January, and he's got these thoughts in his head at that.
Which none of us were aware.
The police found that, and we can only speculate what's going through his mind, but there was certainly something going through his mind at that point in time.
So that's what I think he realized that he wasn't going to get Hannah back. She was She's had this wall. Now she's strong, she's got the kids. And the thing is that he was never ever not going to be able to see the kids. He just why could he not just let them live their own life and he have his life and still see the kids and be part of their lives. But he had to have this one hundred percent, Like he said, I want the kids
one hundred percent. How are you going to survive? How are you going to do that?
And I was I'd actually said to him when he had the children, I would be more than happy to be there to support him if he needed anything done to help.
He wasn't seeing things, you know laterally, so that's I mean, he couldn't get just get it through his head. All he had was that one vision, that one thing. That's all he wanted to do and know his way or.
The high ways and look a couple of a couple of things. And this is what makes me very sad about what happened, because you guys, and obviously that played off with Hannah and everything you were so giving of that's the right thing, like, yeah, we're not trying to take it like you would be well within your right say stuff that we're going to get a called order that you never see your kids. But you were in spirit and you understood the importance of to him, you're being kind to him.
We wanted to do the right find the right steps. Yeah, like we wanted to be all legal and just do it, do it proper, you know, and just move on.
But by the time he killed them, we were starting to get well, maybe he should never have the children. Yeah, you know, we were starting to get he.
Had those times where he took one of the kids away and different things, and that that caused a lot of stress to Hannah. So it would have to and I've never been in the situation. If you've had someone looking after my kids at that age that you didn't trust, it must be a living nightmare.
Yeah.
Well, the first time he had had the kids, remember that was around Australia, because it was it was just before Australia. So he had them for the Friday night. He's gonna have him Friday, So I don't think it was a couple of nights. So we said to Hannah, Okay, let's get an uber. We'll go down to the club down winter Man, we'll have a have a meal and have a few drefts. Let's just unwined ring Nikkis and Nikki.
We're going down. How about you come down. So we went down and we're having a few drinks, and of course, next thing, she gets a phone call on his phone and it's Aliah. Yeah, what's going on? Oh Dad's got us in the car and he's taken us somewhere.
Ye I don't know where he's driving and it's dark.
And it's a thirty at night, and thinking well, why isn't he got the kids in the carner? Hang on? What's he doing? Is he taking them somewhere? Is he cutting for it? So he was starting to play those games right and next thing and Hannah, luckily she probably had a few drinks. She was quite calm about it. That's okay, you know, he's probably taking you to a fun thing, fun you know, And she didn't put any excitement in her voice or threatening that it's okay. And
then before she could say the house, Aliah. This is how smart she was, she goes, hang on, we're just going past Bunnings. Oh you know, he's taking this back home you.
Can see the exit on the freeway.
Smart kid.
Yes, he's the phone off the child.
It just foiled the whole thing. So he was doing to try and upset Hannah. He obviously knew that she might have been out. I don't know whether he knews she was going out or whatever, but he just thought, I'll just put some fear into her that I've got the kids on taking off. So there's that Bravo Marsho man trying to be the tough guy again and beat her down.
And this is where and we'll talk about this in part two, that you know these so called tough guys that think they're tough, real tough guys need to talk these guys down, like call them for what they are. Like, it's all bravarde, you are just a weak human being and we need to get there.
Just the day, the day, the night before if I can, he FaceTime the children and he couldn't speak to them because he was crying so hard and like, Elia's just he's crying and the kids. In the end, Hannah said to him, I'm going to hang up unless you talk to the children. This is no good. They don't need to see you crying and then she had trouble sleeping that night because she thought he was going to kill himself, and she was really really concerned about that.
Her empathy comes across even in that stage. But again, that's a manipulation, isn't.
I'm going to go oh, he often threatened.
I would imagine that would be part if you don't come back, I'm going to kill myself. That would have been rolled out to the point of ad nauseum. Okay, on the day people know about it. You've spoken about it,
and I feel uncomfortable sitting here bringing it up. But I want people to understand what we're talking about here, and I'll say it that in a car, he doused Hannah and the three children with petrol, didn't douse himself with petrol, driving driving around, driving past someone that Hannah thought might be able to help and call out, and not on that basis that it escalated from there and he set the car alight.
Yeah, she didn't know he was hiding the side of the house, ran out with the knife as she just finished putting the last one in the car seat, jumped in, held the knife on her and told her to drive through, petrol over them all and the idiot didn't realize that you get a bit of splashback from petrol, so he got petrol on himself and she just got down around the corner and she saw Michael, a neighbor, actually washing the car and he had a hose, so she screamed out to.
Him, and she only had her window down. Car windows were tinted as well, so no one knew there were kids in the black One of the guys who was putting a sign up, he saw the cover on the window and it clicked to him that there's children there, so he raced over and sort of of course, they had the door locks too on it, so he only
saw Hannah. Yeah, but Michael sort of got to the door and thought, what's going on in he I don't like to say his name, but she had had Hannah an a bear hug and she's trying to get out. Michael sort of got hose in his hand, looked and saw what's going on in the process, and next thing, all of a sudden, Hannah broke free, and he said, I think I got my hand to the door. I didn't even get over next to him. It was his almighty flash and that was enough. YEA he went back,
his face got burnt. Hannah came out burnt on fire hose on her straight away hit get on the ground, dowst. Hannah kept the water on her, then looked around, saw him get out. He's covered in fire too, so he went around put him out. Then the car actually must have got out of gear started rolling back. Yeah, it had just gone up in flames. Talking to Dr Rashford and a few others, they reckon the velocity of the fire was so strong and that the kids didn't have
a chance. They just went straight away, so there was no That was always my biggest thing was I hope the kids didn't suffer. They would have been so terrified because especially going on. So eight o'clock I actually got a phone call from Hannah. I'm on a job site, trying to look at a job and a lot of noise going around, and I'm saying, yeah, hello, how are you there? What's going on? Hello? And I can hear the kids, but it wasn't screaming, it wasn't. They just
did me talking. So I thought, Okay, it's just a bum dye the kids working around. So I hung out and then you know, an hour later, I get a phone call from the neighbor saying, a detective, Sergeant Scott Thompson has been around here looking for you. What are you done? Jesus might have a speeding ticket, but I don't know why. Detectives.
You don't have to confess now, Yeah.
And holy crap, And anyway, we're trying to piece it together, and then he wrings him back and goes, oh, there's a card downs gone on fire, caught on fire, and you had some kids are going up in it, and oh wow. I still didn't put turn two together. I suppose I didn't want to. And he said it was a white car that he'd hurt. So yeah, I didn't think it was Hannah. I thought I she would have been long gone. But anyway, so I'm trying to call Sue Hannah at that stage, and you're going to say
what happened to you? Years? So they came in to.
Get you, and well, I was went for morning tea and I worked for dentists and one of the young dentists was flicking through Facebook and she stopped. She went, oh, Sue, three kids have been burnt to death in a car and camp Hill and I just knew. And then she read on a bit more and she went in Raven
Street and then I just knew. And with that I looked up and two detectives walked in, so I knew straight away, and I tried as soon as she said it, I tried ringing and I was like, oh, no, I should be at the gym, the kids are at school, and didn't. Yeah, but it was pretty quick. And I'd heard the sirens all morning because I don't work far from where it happened. And actually I looked at the boss and went, Wow, something's happening today. It's all we could hear was sirens and sirens.
I can't I'm sure anyone listening just can't imagine what goes through your mind there.
I think.
One thing and gained testament to Hannah my understanding of even though the horrific injuries that she suffered, the burns, and she still managed to worry about her kids that was her primary concern and also speak to the police.
Yeah, she gave a statement.
Well, in her head, she would have wanted him to pay, and that was her last final act to make him pay.
People have said that witnesses who were there on the day, some couple of young tradees came racing up as a car was rolling. They went out to try and stop it or try and get in there. And apparently at that stage he was still he was I wasn't on fire, but he had that. He went back to the burning cart, pulled the knife out and looked at these people and threatened them with the knife, and they reckoned. His eyes were just black. It was something evil there. It was
just it wasn't right. Yeah, so yeah, they sort of pulled back and then he stabbed himself in the in the chest, not once, but twice. They missed the first.
Time and lucky it was a blunt knife too. Took a while.
Yeah. No, look, you hear it. We've heard that these murder suicides and all that white tape, the children white take your partner. Yeah, if you're going to do it, do.
It yourself exactly.
But they're cowards. That's uh, there's no other way.
That's why he stabbed himself. He realized then there was no way out.
Yeah yeah, yeah, for being the control for it. I'd love love to see him put the prison situation with that, with what he's done and see what the tough guy is there.
I think where the whole system fell apart, the QPS and they know it, and it was the only problem we've got with him is that when he did get when he breached the DVA and then he got caught at down local shopping center, they saw him, got him, took him to the police beat. He should have went to the watchhouse because he had breached his DVO and he had never gone back in to give his side of the story, give his evidence. So they let him go.
And if he would have spent a night in jail bailable offense, maybe that could have been enough just to sort of stop it, a bit of a wake up call, put him in the pan for a while, cool him down, you know. But no, he got let off. So again, you know, he missed getting a smack on the wrist which might have set him straight. But we will never know.
Well, when we might take a break now and when we get back, we're going to talk about the aftermath of what happened with the and it's a tragedy that touched everyone in the country. I don't think they're and I said it to you guys the other day when I said I was coming up here to do a podcast with you I've done podcasts with a lot of people, but the amount of comments I got with people going, oh, I remember that, so it's in the country, Psyche, what
what happened? But we'll talk about, yeah, if any good can come from this, making sure that this type of thing is harder for it to happen again, and different things on the back of the work that you guys are tirelessly doing. So let's have a break and when we'll get back, we'll talk about that.
Okay, sound good, Good