Fighting for freedom: Evaristo Salas Pt.2

and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with ever Risto Sallas, a man who is wrongly convicted of a murder and who has spent twenty six years of his

life in prison before being exonerated. In part one, we discussed his early life and how he felt and himself convicted of a murder at the age of sixteen and since to thirty two years in prison. Evaristo, welcome back to our catch Killers we left you in part one, you were talking about the emotion of seeing your father after you've been convicted, just bringing people back into the story.

The courts decided as a sixteen year old. You were going, well, you're actually fifteen at the time, but to try you as an adult and send you to an adult prison, you get since thirty two years and nine months, how do you cope with the process? That's you said at the start of the podcast. For a young fellow, you didn't fully comprehend the reality of what the life in

front of you played out to be. Can you tell us when you went in the prison and you realize when you realize this is in fact your life and how you survived bad?

I looked at him and he had this kind of his eyes were kind of glossed over. He had like a thousand yards staring in his eyes, and it's almost like he didn't see me. And I remember at that moment that you know, he had this kind of look in his faith too. That was you know, he wasn't he wasn't crying, but the look in his face, you know, kind of showed the pain that was underneath. And I remember he kind of caught himsel and like came out of it. He went to kind of smile, kind of

give me that strength again. But at that moment, that just seeing that that, you know, that reaction and that fear in his eyes that I hadn't seen, you know, that was kind of the first time, even after I was committed, that I felt fear in the entire process because what that looks showed me because he had he had a look in his eye like as if he was about to see his child be devoured by lions.

It was that kind of look. And I remember thinking to me that at that moment became real to me that whenever I faced from this moment on for the first time in my life, I would have to face it alone that my father, no matter how much he loved me, no matter how much he wished to protect me, wouldn't be able to protect me from whatever was coming. And that was that was one of the worst streemenies in the world because that's when I really felt alone. Truly,

I knew that he couldn't protect them anymore. And when I went to be sentenced, you know, they had these impact statements where the family comes up and they, you know, give their testimony how how this murder had impacted them, you know, to something to that affect, and you know, the family got up there. You know, his brother got up there and and you know said what any brother would say to a personally, you know, thought or some you know killed their brother, and he laid into me.

You know, it's just some really horrible things. And it was for me I had to accept that. It was hard to accept that because I knew they were wrong, but they didn't know they were wrong. They were led to believe by this, you know, officer and the courts. I mean that I was the person and it was like somebody coming up to you and just slapping your own or Virginia or something, and you can't move. We just have to take it. And it's a it's an emotional thing, you know, And and it was horrible because

I'm I'm I'm a compassionate person. I can you know, I'm empathetic towards others, and I can feel, you know, some pain. So to feel that kind of anger and that her directed at me, you know, really hurt. And I felt it. And the worst is when his mother got up, Because the mother got up and she didn't, you know, land to me that. She just said a few words, but her words, you know, would would stay

with me in my insirecence. And she looked at me and she said that, and she said in Spanish and kind of like a really low kind of, you know, kind of tone, and she just said that that I had no heart for myself or for anybody else, that I had taken her son from her, and that I was, you know, a dark person, and that's all she said. But those words right there stuck with me and and they cut me deep because you know, growing up, you know, my mother told me, you know, you're you're a bad kid.

You know, the system labeled me a certain thing. So all the things in my life are conveying the same message that she has just been different way, you know, And and I remember it's this is the only time I actually spoke my trout. I was able to speak, so they asked me if I would, and I went so I went up and spoke and I said a few words. I just said, look, I don't know why this happened. I don't know why they're saying that I didn't kill anybody. I feel bad for the family, but

I didn't do it. And one in the days, You're going to see that this is wrong, and I'm going to prove it and the truth will come out. And it was something to that effect, and he looks at me. The judge looks at me, and he says, he said, I'm gonna send you as much time as I can possibly send you two it's in fact, I'm sending you to a life sentence because if you when you get out of prison after serving this thirty plus years, and if you don't so much as pay your fine, I'm

gonna send you back to prison. And the way he said it, though, like I said, everything had like this this emotional charge behind it, a personal thing, and like I said, I don't know if they do this as as a way to convey the message to the victims. I'm know, if this is just the natural way of them when they send to people and try I don't know. I don't know this kind of stuff. But it felt really personal in the way he looked in the center and he sends me a three hundred and nine three

months and I think it was a month later. Hold on that chain bus to Shelling, which is a middle dark prison, and I remember going down and they called me to go out the chain. They don't tell you, they don't tell your family nothing. They just come and get you because security thing or something. I remember going downstairs and they're lining us all up. You have strip naked, all this kind of stuff, you know, and they're pretty chained on us. The shack ones together like you're seeing

me all removies everything. The guard comes up to me. I remember, he looks at me and he says, where he's asking everybody your deal? Cneumbers? Are they ever? You know? Ben? I didn't know what that meant. You know, I don't know anything about prison or anything. And he looks at me and he says, he says, I know you don't have a DEALC number, but you're gonna have one for a really long wrong time. And then he laughs, and

it was a sadistic laugh. And I didn't understand what that meant at that young lady came later, but that was kind of a micro cosm of what I was going to face in prison. The indifference, the sadisticness, the ugliness, you know, almost this kind of entirely a way, don't care, nobody cares about anything. And I remember, you know, being on that chainbus and looking at Yakama for the last time, and you're wishing that I could tell my dad that they were taking me or something, or wishing that my

dad could protect me for whatever was coming. It was like like eight hours chain bus ride. I get to Shelton, which is a receiving center and adult receiving center. It's Washington Correction Center. I get there and the first thing they do is they line you up. They put you in these dog kettles. They look like dog kettles, and you strip naked. But naked, mind you, I'm very turn sixteen.

I'm not comfortable being I don't know if anybody is, but got stripped me and then there's at least twenty to thirty guards lined up on one end, and you have to get up naked, walk all the way across them, and and they hand you your clothes and then you put your it's not mean clothes like uh cross, put your covers on, but I do this little thing. Who my covers on? And then they start to evaluate you. They bring in one by one and who are here and this and that, and so they look at me.

Typically everybody goes goes straight from there to go shave. But I can't shave. I don't have anything. Yeah, I don't have you know, I don't have no hair, you know nothing. They look at me and they will laughing. So all we got another one over here that can't shave, and they just laugh like you, all of them start to laugh. I'm naked, mind you'll nanking and I don't. I'm just I don't know where to go over there, you know. So they put me to me to go to the cage, and then they give me my things

and they put it on. Nothing fits of course, shoe side of nothing. They bring me to this little window and they're they're soon as I'll walk up. It's the slide she has her head down, but she's gonna ask me some medical questions. I guess that's the process. I get out there and she puts her headup and she looks at me, and her eyes freaking she's stocked. And it was, oh my god, how old are you? And I said, oh, I've just started sixteen. And she's got

all that that's so wrong. And then she proceeded to ask me all these questions and and then they send me on my way along with all the other adults. I go into the h R three, which is a receiving center, go straight into to a cell. The cell they put me in was with two eighteen year olds, which was good. I knew one of them actually was

FROMANCAM accounting. That relieved some of my invitings. But there are two man cells and they throw me in there, and I meant for even too, so they gave me a mattress out there, and that's that's where that's where I first get out. Now and I don't know anything about that chow. And when I'm in a child, I'm walking in every even tail her just a freaking chock. And so I'm walking into the child as soon as

I stepped into the child. There's like clamor was talking and everybody just just stops talking and kind of just looks at me. And I kind of like, and that's the worst feeling in the world for someone who's kind of an inch work like me, you know, And that's like, oh God, and I don't know where even where to see And then I s everybody just kind of just like stares a minute. They all have this look in their eyes like hell, was this kid doing in here?

You know, It's like that'll look like I thought it was a joke or something. And they kind of just slowly and then they kind of figured out and they kind of realized what was going on, and then they went back to talking. That I remember somebody waving me down like this. I didn't know the person that was a Mexican dude, and I kind of tried to ignore him, and he goes telling me come here. So I went over there and sat down, and he goes to Mexican.

See yeah, he goes, where are you from? So I tell him at the Sunnyside and he goes, well, he said, go to yard tomorrow and bring your paperwork. And I said, he said, but you have to be there, make sure that you bring your paperwork. And he's what he's referring to your court paperwork, your judgment of sentence. You know this stuff, the should what you're in prison for it. He goes be there and he sat in this kind of tone where like it you know this, you better.

The argum took your paperwork. So I said, uh, where's the yard at He said, I'll let you know what there, but said all right, and then it sleeves. And so I'm thinking the whole night like you know, you know what you know, I don't know what that is about, you know, I mean, So so I go, I take my paperwork and I go out to the yard. He takes my paperwork and then you just needs and doesn't say anything to me. And so I'm just slept walking the yard and not knowing where to go or where

to walk and what the hell's gonna happen. And the yard ends. I go back in. We have yard the next day, and uh, he sees me out there. It brings me by paperwork and says, he said, all right, you're you're good. What he was doing was it's called

paper checking. He was making sure that I wasn't a sense of in there that I didn't tell anybody that I didn't kill any women or I didn't kill any children, basically making sure that I wasn't I was in there for something that didn't have to do with those things, because I had I been in there for any of those things, I would have been targeted or killed in the next yard. And that's that's just the way it is.

So he gets back by paper, he goes, all right, So he starts to explain to me what is expected to me as being part of the you know, being the Mexican, and what they expected me in there. There's no asking if I'm gonna be part of this or nothing. You're already a part of this because you're a Mexican, so you're gonna be able just whether you want to

or not, you know. So he explains the rules, and the first thing says to me, and he says, he says that somebody so much just steps on your shoe and doesn't apologize immediately, you bring him out here to this yard and you butcher him in front of everybody, and he goes. The reason you do that is to make sure that everybody knows that they always stepped themselves with you that this is what's going to happen to them, and if you don't do that, then we'll do that

to you. And he goes the reason why is because if they think that you're weak, they're going to think that we're weak, and then they're going to test us and we can't have that. And that was the beginning of the adopted nation of what prison was going to be able to buy. For me. There was no decision of where I want to go or what's my it's not a democracy, what you're going to do, or this is what's going to happen to you if you don't. And it was just that non stop indoctrination of how

you're supposed to carry yourself. And the respect became the line, and that line was any little thing, heady bins that were deemed disrespect would be meant force and brow for it. And that was the beginning of what prison was going to be like. And you know the horrors of all the stuff, you know, the riots, all that stuff you know took place and everything. And because I was in for first to be a murder means that I get a ticket to go to the level four prison because

it's a murder case. Level fours is the second highest custody you can be in, meaning that everybody has committed a murder or anything that they've ever done. That's when they go gang member or whatever going there. And those are the worst of the worst in the state of Washington, and there was two of them back then in Washington Penitentiary and Quantumba Correnge Center. Colombay had a nickname as Gladiator School, and that was my first mother prison. That's

what they sent to me too. And because I came in at the juvenile the first six months day and the receiving something, that housed me with the adults. All of us is the adults. And then they passed the law saying that they couldn't how juveniles with adults if they're in an age of eighteen regardless. So they separated us and kind of had our within the prison, our

own area and all that stuff. And that lasted for embe a year, and then I turned eighteen and then I was dumb straight into the close custody and Qualum Bay Correction Center, and that right there was that prison was known for peckstabbings and all that kind of stuff, and they just you turn eighteen and there you go. And I went right into it and didn't kind of know. I knew the basics, but I didn't know really what a close custody was like. That's a whole other level

of lining. I was in the receiving center. That's pretty

small comparison to a level four prison. And that's when everything became about race and then gang and even more so than it was in the receiving center, and the brutality of that place, the wars, the battles, and the fact that I was already affiliate gang when I was out here, mant that I was affiliated with the gang within the prisons too, and that gang was that with another gang, and so everywhere I went, I was targeted by that gang, regardless of I was still part of

it or not. I mean, just the level of brutality that you see or what society descends into when all the political correctness or all the morals seemed to be gone, and what they morphed into. And that's what what the level of prison was like for me. It was it was brutal. There was no there was no pity, there

was no second chances. There was just the way things are and you far online or else, and to live under that kind of oppressive environment, to see the horrors of what's going on that people can stab and then beaten to nasu of their life, you know, and realizing that that's where I had to live my life and that's where I had to be was hard in itself, but in comparison to the mental struggle what was going on, it was small, because a mental battle that was going

on in my head was was far worse. Here. I was not only a kid, but in prison for somebody and for everybody in trial. The day I was convicted, probably that's where it ended. That's where, you know, the tragedy ended right there for the family and all that kind of stuff. But for me, every day it replayed itself because it's like for it for example, if something happens bad in your life, it happens usually at one moment you recover whatever you get pass it, and that

moment kind of goes far back. But for me, the tragedy of my life was arrived with condition. That means every second, every minute that I was in prison, it was like being convicted over and over and over again.

would hurted me. And that was the struggle. That was part of the mental struggle, amongst all the other things, you know, is not losing myself in that manness. And the only way I did that is I had just sent into the orgnance of what it was. And then I got myself a seat and say, okay, I don't want to be that person. That's not me. How do I get out of this? And in the moments of those ugliness in it and seeing what prison was again,

it was a decision. It was like, okay, so if I'm not this person, then how do I survive in this environment that's literally forcing me to be there or allow me to surviving this some type of person. And some of it was luck, some of it was prayer, you know, some of a lot of it was My dad reminded me of who I was as a person, reminded me that he was missed and I was loved and not to forget them. I remember he told me one time I had got into this fight and it

was a brutal fight. There put me in with this this mentally ill person and he was like fixed, fixed to and I just got out of I was in isolation for four and a half years, so five years, and then they sent me to a level three, which is the lower custod which is better. But they put me a house, meaning with this mentally ill person. And I remember this guy that lived with him, and I was in kind of a molding cell and he tells me. He's like, hey, whatever you do, because I'm moving out

of the cell. That means I'm going to put you on that cell that's on the sell open. Whatever you do, don't go in that cell. So what do you mean? He goes, Man, I'm telling you this guy, I'm just not a good person, bro, and just do whatever you can do. You know, don't go in there. Problem is that you can't decide where you go right, and you can't go up to a guard and say, look, this guy is this. I don't want to go in there because then everybody's fell always weak, and then they just

you know, and then you're in a bad place. So you're stuck. So I go up and I talked to the start and I say, look, there's a or if I wait and uh, one extra week in there, because you know that way I can get you to sell. He's like, oh no, no, no, no, that can happen. So you're going in that cell way you want to or not. He said, but if you're good for thirty days, I'm gonna to another son. I said, all right, there's nothing

I can do that's it. I can't argue with them and make things up, so they put me in that cell. But sure enough, you know this guy was he never left the cell. He was like, he was really aggressive. He was a movie And when I first got in there, he seemed all right back and tell I've been in prison by the time for a couple of years now, so I could understand. And one night I'm updrawing. I got to finish out the car over doing this car for this person. And he just in the middle of night.

I had a little light on. He just jumped up out of nowhere in the middle night, turned out the light, turned out the big light, and then starts yelling at me, starts calling me names, and you keep I'm keeping him up this and that, and there's something about the light, and I mean just the aggressiveness of this person. And I looked at him, I said, hey, all you had to do was tell me now to put it why. I didn't know what's keeping you money because I wasn't

making any noise or nothing new. So mind you, the years of indoctrination about respect and all that's already you know, it's all there. So the next day I feel some type of way about it. So I tell him, I said, hey, look, if you have an issue, just let me know straight up in a respectful way. You don't have to get up and that, and he hops up again get to my face, but he's kind of a big dude, and he because, well, you ain't gon to talk to me and something like that, you know, And I end up

just turning my back and need anything. You gotta deal with this, you know. But I knew that it was over. I knew that I was gonna be able to housing that souf. And so I come back a little bit though, I think it was the next day or something. I'm looking for my glass. I can't find him from my head.

This guy's get something because he's already acting weird. So I asked him, and I knew by asking him he was to react that way, and I was gonna I already have made decision that had come to my face again, I'm not gonna do with it anything. So sure enough I asked him, gets on my face? Are fighting? And

it was almost to dad, you know. He ended up having hitting weapon and stabbing our number of times and all that kind of stuff, you know, And I fought, and we end up going to the hole and I didn't get charged with the soft on top of already w out in prisone forslam and I end up going to Boka encounter jail for him, And I remember my dad tells me. He says to me, when I'm in the who's the visit me? And he said, look, I understand you surviving that place. I understand that. I know

you do. And he said, but don't forget that you're in prison for something you didn't do. He said, everything you're doing right now is you're going the opposite way. You're living in that place. I said, you forgot and everything you're doing right now is going to keep you in that place. He said, if you if you keep on doing that, what happens when they prove you didn't

do it? They're not gonna believe it. Or you can stuck in here on another charge for doing some off the wall stuff and you're never getting out of prison. And he's telling me with emotion, and and I remember thinking about that, like like what am I doing? Yes, I can. I have to survive, but I have to remind myself that you know I'm in here for somebody didn't do. And then if I want to go home, I have to stay focused on that, you know, And that kind of was a changing, you know, point in

my life. It just it made me reflect and think about what I had to do and how much I'm gonna have to suffer as a person in order just to get into a place where I can focus on myself and and focus on going home. And that was the other battle. Because I had already been online with this gang. That means that they weren't gonna accept me leaving it or saying that I don't want to be a part of it. That's just what I'm gonna be. And the minute I said then, I was probably gonna

be killed that night. And so has either this is already you know, I've already been in the manness of prison. I've been to a number of fights, all the stuff. I spent already like nine and a half years in isolation over all these things, and that in itself is a whole another you know, mental issue. Meanwhile, during this entire process, I'm trying to you know, I'm writing letters, you know, I'm saying I didn't do it, asking people for help. But I decided that think it was in

two thousand and thirteen. There, you know, I just I wasn't going to live a slacknom right, And so then became the process of going to a level for a prison which I was going to go to, and letting them know that I'm not going to be a part of this anymore. I'm not going to come in anymore by the naxts and all that stuff, and it is what it is, and whatever you want to do about that,

and do it. And I told him that, and not in a direct way like that, because you know, I wasn't trying to be killed that night, but I assume either way it was going to one dir't going to come aster me one way another. And one of the guys said, he's like, oh, yeah, that's right, you know, And they always say that, No, you're good, that's just what that's You're just going to get you next day.

I mean. So I go back to my room, I have my stuff all packed up, and the next yard was the next day, and I could't sleep much that night, said a few prayers and assume for sure that I would either be killed or beaten with an inch of my life because I didn't want to go in all on line with their stuff. I went out the yard next day, waited for it. It didn't come, nothing happened. I was like, oh, okay, well that it's going to be even worse because they're preparing certain shanks. Because I

already knew the way person was. I knew they weren't going to let that come. So another day goes by, nothing happened, a week was buy, nothing happens. So now I'm steaking this isn't this is this isn't this. I don't know what's going to happen. And I spent on the level four person. I was out there with my gang. It wasn't really my gang because I told him that I want to be a part of it for almost fourteen months and they actually never made a move on me,

and I couldn't really understand why. But I lived in under shadow that it would come one day or every day felt like it was going to be that day, and it just never came. In mind you, it wasn't because these individuals were scared and none of that either. Are these an individual and killed people in other none of them are in there for anything good, you know, And someone been in prison for a number of years. In another way it is, but they never did anything

to me. And then a Bible ride took place, a massive ride out in the yard. I was out there wing it happened, and I was just pretty brutal. They were all involved. I didn't get involved, which is a real no one. So they end up taking me home anyways, because I'm affiliated with them, So I go anyways no matter what, I get in there, and they all know them now that I wasn't involved into them. That's that's

something that they really came out. You know. I don't know if they assumed that, you know, if he said, well, you'll get in any ways. You know, I don't know what they assume. But and they told me, they said, why didn't you get down and switch? Why didn't you fight with us? And I told him straight. I said, look, I giving you twenty three years of my life and that's how long I was an Act Game member. He said, look,

I'm not giving you anymore. I made that clear. And whatever you guys decided to do about that, I accept. And uh, when it was started, kind of you know, to say something if you look it isn't I know it's coming. You don't need to. I understand. He said, all right, your ext dot exile means is basically, when they see you're going to kill you. You know that's it. And so I accept it, I said, is what it is. But I told my dad, said, Dad, look, I left all that stuff, and the next couple of years are

going to be really bad for me. But I told him, you know, I'll survive. And my dad started crying. He wasn't crying because he was fearful of what would happen to me. He was crying because he was happy because I finally left the thing that was going to keep me imprison if I didn't let it go. Powerful, and he says to me, he tells me, He says, look, me, know that that's all you know in your entire life. And I know that those people fold you believe in

take care of your friends, but they never were. I've told you that since you were a child. It's going to be hard for you, he says you. We're gonna have to suffer, probably a lot, but understand this, he says you. You're free from that now. Now you have a chance to move, and I'm proud of you this first time. My father's ever told me was prep because you know, you've saved your life for it today and

it doesn't matter if they target them like that. I understand it's going to be great, But I know he's shrunk. But you made the right decision. And that's what I needed to hear at that moment, because when that's all you've ever known, when they're you're the facto family to a certain extent, and you think that they are friends and that they will understand, but when they won't and they can't because that's just not there. The way it is, there's a part of you that feels wounded, so that

part of it feels as if you're abandoning something. And this was twenty fifteen already, and then the prison system had already in the administration, had already know they know everything. They knew I wasn't a part of the gang stuff anymore. They knew I left it, and they said, you know, hey, we understand that you're lucky. Stuff are you doing with

thennes City? You know, I said, okay, we're going to send you to a level three, which is a lower custody, which is almost a difference night and day between the close custodies and from that point on they sent me to a level three and it sent me to one of the best in the state, just a number of programs,

and that's when I can change mentally. And I had to get rid of this this old facade, this mass that I had word for nearly my entire life, and then I could really focus on my freedom, you know, trying to educate myself and starting to try to find a way to dig myself out of this hole that this wrongful commissioner, because the wrong condition, the mental affrica, that is what pushed me back into this lifestyle, because again I thought there was nothing. I don't care about anything,

It doesn't matter to me. And in the beginning you mentioned how how come you're not anger? And that stuff. Know that that was angry right there and expressing himself through the violence of prison to the gang stuff. That's what anger was. And it led to a point in my life where I had to make a decision what to choose, you know, and thankful that I have my dad there and a few other people that made that

choice when I did. And once I did that, I began to work on myself and change became a part of you know, my everyday life, and the boy of the prison wasn't a part of that person I was in. It was a different environment and that's where I could I could lurish as a person. That's what I could reflect and understand the choices I've made and how it is I'm going to be able to go home with you in what way to do it? And you know

through my entire sense. You know, I was writing letters, I was working on my case, that kind of stuff. But there was only so much focus when I'm always trying to survive and I'd be killed or try to make these these decisions that are going to keep from going off into the deepen where wouldn't return. But the last I always say the last ten years of my life, my tenures in prison, well I'll say about eight years.

Nine years was really enlightened. Moment is when I came to understand by a true purpose and understanding what I needed to do in life.

prison was put on me. That means the mentality, those are the things I had to target individually, and the anxiety, you know, the frustration and the hatred with being in prison for somebody could do because that the hatred was the root of everything of what happened to me, that was driving me into this, you know, this lifestyle I started focusing on. You know, there's such awareness classes called redemption. I started trying to understand the trauma where it came from.

I spent a lot of years of isolation. That also wasn't a lightning moment too, because in those moments I could reflect on my childhood from dealing with my mother and that kind of stuff, and it's all tied in together with THEO. If it all comes intertwined with all that, and if I really wanted to free myself of that, preve myself of the anger, free myself of the hatred, all that stuff, I had to start there. And it

was a mental batter. It was a literally little mental batter where I had to sit there and almost relive the moments, the traumatic movements of my life. I did that through some of these programs I spoke about it, but also I spent a lot of time in the yards, walking and rowin and going back to those moments in my life, the horrorble moments with my mother and those kinds of things and reliving them until they had no

more strength. And some of it was tears, the pains or why my mother did this or why these things happened in my life, And the same thing with the rodful condition. I had to go back to the moment and trial. I had to feel that pain and understand it in order to move past it. And that was the only way that I could free myself. And the only way that I could do this farm was walking through it. There was no other way. And then I

had to listen to it. I had to listen to the pain and the tears, that I was shading to really under stand, you know, the wizard that would come that would come from it, and it was about it was I took you know, I took Tostmasters International Speech of Class. I took a Supperware, a bunch of different suf awareness classes, probably about fifteen twenty. When I took everything there was. There was nothing proven to take more, but I did that with the genists of trying to change.

I needed that kind of understanding from other people that deal with trauma. I needed to express the pain and that right there was is what freed me from from that cage of anger, austration, and the security and allowed me to see what my te purpose was in life.

I forgot I'm doing a podcast. It's fascinating your journey and what you've what you've been through in regards to getting the matter back before the courts? What was the process there? How hard did you have to fight? And that you said you were always writing letters?

a moment in that. There's plenty of the moments that movie that were pretty inspiring from him. But you know, Andy, he wanted to uh, he was well basically was bugging the legislator for money to build his library. And I remember when he first he wrote letters and they finally responded to him after six years, and he said, well, I'll write two letters a day, and that right there, for some reason popped in the heads like well, maybe I should just bug people, you know, that's that's all

apps my voice. I mean, so I'm just gonna bug everybody. And so I went to the law library. I found addresses lawyers of organizations, and every week, two letters a week I wrote, and I explained my case as best as I could. At that time, I moved to that I understood the law that could and I went to the law library and that was my routine. Every single every two weeks, I had a log of all the things, and every single letter I got back said no, we

can't help you. And I even I wrote, you know, international organizations, all that stuff, and I wrote the Innocent Project Northwest. They asked to end up taking my kids kind of looking into it, but it was so hard for them because they were a part of the University of Washington, but they didn't have a lot of funds and it was hard for them. Eventually, I had two years. If I was trying to find something, they couldn't dig anything up. They just had a lack of resource and

they had to drop my case. And those were blows that had to deal with it. I probably got a thousand notes before I got one. Yes, you know, in fact, It was twenty years of those and one yes that end up lating to my generation. So it was just letter after letter, and I remember how telling my dad, you know, I'd be so enthusiastic about it, like, Dad, I wrote this letter, you know, I'm going to do this. And then my dad was like, oh, that's good, you

keep doing it. And I remember, twenty years into that process. I used to always tell my dad about these letters and.

gonna happen. I just kept writing letters. And in twenty thirteen I watched a documentary called Paradise Lost the Westminphiter three and it was an act deparate desperation. After I seen that, as like, oh maybe Easterrect Prewson can help and we write them on the doorstaing because says no. So I wrote him, you know, as best I could, and said everything about my case. And you know, seven eight years passed. Again. I didn't here. I don't care.

Mostly I don't hear a lot from see anybody, so I'm used to it and I want to left all, you know, all the stuff in my life, you know. And I was at that level three. I was only there for ten months. I get a letter in the mount and uh. The letter in the mail says, oh, we uh we found your letter that you have sitting in our mill room for six years unopened. Yeah, unopened, and we are doing a documentary Innocent People in Prison,

and we're really interested in the case. And I was at first, I was like, this seems to be true. I've been here before. I don't want to believe, so call us, you know, here's our number anytime. So I got that letter, I went down to the prison phone and called, and sure enough it was one of the one of the producers, her names now, and she just an amazing woman and angel and herself, you know me.

And so I spoke to her and she's like, yeah, we she I really apologize, but your letter literally was sitting there for six years unsaled, and we bowed it. We're just moved by it, we're touched by We really want to look into your case. We're not saying we're gonna take it, but this is what we have, what we're working on. But she told me, she goes, look, I'm going to tell you right now, if we find out that you did this, we're going to rego that too. By all means, look at it. You'll see. Yeah. And

that was the beginning process of change. But it took twenty years to get to that point. And it had nothing to do with the course. See, my case had already been been decided. So three years after my case, I filed them kill all that My lawyer father week ad kill. They threw that out right away. I didn't not understand the course. He didn't file the right paper works when my director kill was dead by nineteen ninety nine.

I didn't learn all this until I went to the law library and figured it out, and then realized, I'm sitting on something on nothing. I have nothing unless I'm digging something up, and how am I going to do that from misplace? So every time I read in the law books and understood the law, I just realized another thing that they wouldn't help me, And so I turned to writing because I knew to try to fight it

myself or even learn the process. When there's probably like a ten percent chance if that I can get my stuff back into courts without help. It's just I just had my time somewhere else. And so once they decided that my case was when they owned that they were going to take, they didn't actually tell me. They just ended up in Sunnyside with the film crew and then told me all taking the case, which was, you know, nerve racking. But at the same time I was like okay,

and they the discovered those stood their investigation with. They discovered the truth right away within about a month.

be used as evidence. So I look at that. And then the vehicle was removed by the deceased girlfriend before it have been processed by police. The police informant claimed in the documentary this is a documentary you're talking about, that he had lied when he identified you from photographs that Detective Rivard had told him to like. In relation to the comments about Detective Revard, he strongly denied all those allegations in the documentary. This is pretty heavy stuff.

So when this, when this was discovered, and when you realize the significance of this, how did it make you feel? Did it give you hope? Did you think, Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

When something happens to us and it's an accident, it's thatt all, what just happens. But when you realize that it was intentional and as somebody deliberately did this for you, then the question comes, you know, why why would you do that to me? Or why? And then the anger and the frustration, you know, came boiling back and I had to fight that back down. I had to release that tune. So now there's someone to blame. For twenty

some years, there wasn't. It was just circumstance. It happens, you know, an act of God, whatever you want to call it, I don't know. You now had a face to a cause it all. And that was another journey of forgiveness right there in its own And so when I heard that, there was that, and then there was a relief. The relief came back. I already knew he was lying, but I'm so glad that he's coming forward and saying what I know is already true. And I didn't have anger towards him. I just wanted him to

say the truth. That's it, you know. And the fact that he did gave me hope, and I was like, Okay, now we got it. Now it's going to end. But I didn't realize at the moment that that was just in the beginning, and the courts don't worked that way, you know. And at the same time that they were doing documentary, my lawyer, my lawyer lawyer or my lawyer, Laura my Shaver, you know, heard about my case and decided to take my case and jumping to that point that had nobody it was just me, And so that

was another goal that happened. He told me sure, like, look, I'm just starting a firm. I don't have a lot of money, but I will not abandon you. I will do everything I can in my power to prove your innocence. I believe, and even if I run out of money, then we can fundraise together whatever I gotta do. We're gonna do what I want to band it do and to hear that, to hear that finally somebody believes me, you know, you know that that that was a comforting

to me. And now she had to put all this stuff that was in the documentary into a legal, you know format, meaning that she had to go interviews. You can't rely on them. You can't just say, okay, here it is. This was. She has to go and talk to him, she has to verify it, she go do all this kind of stuff. Then once she gathers all that stuff, puts it all together, she has to put it in the paper filed, and then that process starts. In that process of the year years processing in the courts.

So and then and I kind of remember joking about this, do we file it? We get it all done? Two years?

I was ready to go, and then COVID hits and shuts down the entire world, you know, and I'm thinking, and I tell her, and I kind of laughing, and I said, I said, what are the odds that you know, I finally get all this stuff and a hundred year pandemic hits and that shuts down the very quarts and and I was like, and you don't know at the time how it's going to end or what this is the beginning of something that you know, I've seen movies on and stuff. I was like, oh no, this is

not good, and and it was. It was it was like it was comical to a certain extent, but it was so serious. But then it was like and we had to wait for two years, two years.

into the court. We got all this stuff compiled, you know, we got the informant gave us a statement said everything was true, got it all the format, We built all this stuff. And my lawyer was like, you know, she's a lawyer. So she's like, I don't know if it's strong enough. You know, I don't know IF's strong And it's hard because the court it's based on guilt. There's no the way the course system works, it's not you're

innocent on that stuff once you're convicted. It's even worse so in the court of appeals, once you're found guilty, you can't even argue innocence. In the court of pills, you argue, my my mice, my rights were violate my process right, Violet, because this happened in trial, and it's not get it for a trial. That's how you have to argue. Forget the fact that they don't even care.

going to drag it out for a long time. We can file it to the court, the trial court, but we're found at the Yakama County, which is a county I came from. And those judges don't give a damn line nothing. They're biased, not all of them are. Sure, there's some good judges, but there's a higher percentages that probably think in a certain way. And so I was like, she's like, well, how you want to do this? And I understood now because I been reading them on it.

And I said, well, I said, you know, I'm twenty some years end of this. You know what I mean. It's I don't want to wait anywhere. Let's just file it directed to the trial court and he can roll on it. And then he kicks it up as a

PRP and so beat we took this shot. So she files it and we must have got the worst judge ever and he's been there for a long time, and so we but the one thing that gave us hopes when we fouled it typically the trials, and this is typical strategy of the trial, just they won't touch it because if they touch it, then they have to follow the rules of a pellet, which gives us string. You know,

it's a whole it's a whole weird thing. It's hard to explain, but so we file it and then usually they'll just kick it up as a PRP and then to go to the guard fields and then we're fighting the quarter pills. But he decides, for whatever reason to hear it, which gave us hope. Well, he's hearing it because he sees something. Then that means, you know, he's gonna return it, but he's gonna do something. He wouldn't have accepted it because he's smarter than that, you know,

I mean, he wouldn't just give me. Because after this, this became a direct appeal, now became something stronger than just the pr and P or personal restraining petition. So we gave us hope. So we have our first fearing on it. This is after COVID, after two years of COVID started dying down and opening up. Everything is still kind of you know, zoom and all that kind of stuff. But and so we getting there. And as soon as we get that first, you know, he start to talk

and it's we can tell anyway, it's not good. He got the prosecuttorney. He's kind of just chill. He's got his legs off, kicked up on the thing. And the way he's talking and arguing, like it almost seems like he's already knows Sin said. And he's not even worried, you know. Meanwhile, he's attacking everything we're doing. All well, I don't know about that. He kept saying, over and over, Oh, he's been in for twenty five years. You think you

think it matters now? And I was like, God, those are the worst things you want to hear, because you already know. It's like it don't matter, you know. I you know, I'm in fifty thousand cases I brought through here in twenty five years, and you want me to just to overturn it. And he's like, and he's attacking my mind, my lords, well, you know, and he goes, first of all, the media is fake news, and I was like, oh god, he did not just say that,

you know what I mean? And and and we don't know it just because he had a documentary and I was like, oh god, he's not even arguing the fat he's not even looking at him, and it's just all bad. And my lawyer knows it, and uh, well, we want subpoenify deny, we want to call the we want to call the the cop up or the police officer. We want to subpoena and Branda, Deny, deny, Din and I and uh and then my lord's actually know why, she goes second time, I'm just gonna file on the quart

of the pails. And he looks at her and he says, my first my lawyer goes, well, you realize you have to follow why did you accept this case? That means you have to follow the rules of Kelly, you know. And he's like, well, I only accept this case because it looked like he worked really hard on it in that condescendi voice. And my lord's, oh, my lords.

at me. I'm not on zooming. He won't even under stare at me. And he goes, yeah, I'm not gonna that's not gonna he's not gonna deny, and then he goes the only way I allow that that that police officer to be a question is if he says he wants to and then depression like, oh he doesn't want to, and like okay, well then it's denied them and said what, oh you know what, well, I'm just gonna forget all this. We're just gonna go we know you're cana roll against us,

and and so we're gonna just appeal your decision. And he goes, I don't really think that the Court of Appeals are gonna care as much as you think they will. It says that directly to my lorry, and so right there it's oh, my lawyers like she was so mad. She's like she didn't. I couldn't call it over for like two weeks should have come sorrow and so pissed off. So that means now it's going to take another year, right, So we filed an appealed his decision to the Court

of Appills. So our finger crossing the port of the pills. We're having oral ordinance and and we're we're more hopeful on the Court of Appills because they're out of Gakima County and they're pulls from different parts of the state, and so they're more liable, they're more reliable to look at something and have a political you know, agenda and that kind of stuff, you know. So and mine is like, well, we know, we're going to see how it goes. And

so we did. We have our old arguments, and I think what was was one of the good signs of the oral argument with is that they were having it at actually, uh, they're having the actual court at a at a at a school auditorium and their students that are watching how they process skulls and everything. For whatever reason, that gave me hope. I was like, Okay, now they're gona have to be you know, exact, you know, because

they're trying to show the top of the kids. So we get in there, it starts going and here comes to prosecurity with the blame arguments that don't even make any sense, and so he starts out as like, whoa, I would tell the course not to believe this informant. He's a liar, he's this, and just goes on this ran about this informant, you know, just tear one alse kind of stuff, right, he's lying, he's making So the judge goes, so you hold hold on, let me, let me,

let me, let me stop you right there. So are you telling me or he goes, don't you think it's a little ironic that one of your starr informants that you argue so much in the course that we accept this testimon Now you're telling us that he's a liar? And he goes, well, no, I don't think it's ironic. He's no, it's it's kind of right. Or he goes, are you telling me that? Hey goes, I find it ironic and that right there. I was like, okay, okay,

that's a good sign. And he goes. He goes, he goes, oh, okay, well let me stop you again. He stops him again in its middle of this rand, he goes, so you're telling me that he started being a liar or committing all these felonies after he testified in the house case. And he goes, yeah, that's all I'm saying. He goes, he goes, no, No, that's that's about what happened, because I got it right here. This is ninety two, this is ninety three, and my Lord had anticipated all this.

So she named every single thing you've ever did wrong. So he goes, yeah, he just throws He goes, yeah, that's no. This guy was already this person prior to you getting them. So how are you gonna tell me now not to believe him? And I was supposed to believe him then, and he's like, and he couldn't. It was so he was basically arguing, so he just switched on. He was like, well, it's been twenty five you get't

even answer. It's been twenty five years, and this and that and that and that, and then another judge jumps in and goes, hold on, hold, So because it's been twenty five years, we shouldn't accept that this guy might be innocent. We should just forget about that? Is that what you're saying to me right now, Well, no, that's not you know, that's exactly what you're telling me. You're saying because there's twenty five years and it doesn't matter what he produces. And he goes, that's not the way

the courts work. And then I was like, Okay, we're getting somewhere. Now. This is getting kind of good, you know. So they challenge him all this stuff, you know, and then they go so the truck right was was you know, impounded, and then they didn't even get to look at it because she went forty and after that or and then she was charged with you know, random and criminal assistance and he couldn't explain it. Oh, you know, so they

were tripping him up on all these things. And then so it was real hopeful, and I was like, Okay, we're getting somewhere now. Now they're kind of seeing the obviousist of it, you know, and so he goes, there was one of the thing. He so the lady at the end of it, one of the judges goes, she goes, right, she was telling my lawyer, does saw us know about the juvenile bill?

bringing that up. And the reason why my lawyer says, well, I didn't file on that is because it's all about culpability and when you when you, when you even if you go to if you go if I go to grow here, they expect you to sit in there and say I'm sorry for this, I'm sorry for that. I couldn't do that because I didn't come into crime, and I wouldn't file. My Lord's like, look, we can file that, we can argue you know you were young, it doesn't matter. Why No, no, not so that that muddy's the water.

I don't want to file on that. There was probably a big chance that I would have been released if I had just filed him. I could, I'm not doing that. I don't care. It's either the exonerator or I'll stay in here. I'm not going to sit there. And I said, how am I going to go to a judge and ask for leaning scene on a murder I didn't commit. I mean, on principle alone, I can't do that. If I guy spend the next next oh it's thirty years, and then so be it. I'm not going to that's not going to happen.

the same thing. She's like, she's like, yeah, you know, I respect it, you know, but it's she goes, She's just like, okay, nohing no. That means I said I can't. I won't do it. So we left that around. He wouldn't argue that. So what is like six seven months go by? My lord, uh commed you and I just felt im good about that. I called her. She's like, they overturned it. They didn't return this thing they gave us everything has Not only did they overturn it, but

they scolded dis judge. You know. I mean, finally we got this is a victory for nothing, but twenty plus years of Massa's this is a victory. So we go back with this new power and everything, and we're stoked and we set the hearing. Now they got a deadline to do it by September. They can't go past them, and they can't drag it out. They have to do it. So we have our first year in the grant us everything they had and now the cop had to come no matter what. And then freely gives up there and

every lineup that I remember, I remember. So the informer gets up there and just lays it out. I lied about because he told me to lie. He paid me to do it. He gave me money to go look for him. I found him. He didn't say anything. I told him that, and he didn't care. He said, I'm gonna get this this this guy, and and he didn't pay me direct. He paid me to hide it under

on the different payments. I'm after it. I told him I wouldn't do it, and he ended up put me in jail for it and making up some other stuff. He paid me the drugs. And this is beyond my my conscious. I sent a kid to PRISM something to do and the judge, she goes, I'm gonna bly her resents. So my lawyer she goes, uh, they're gonna talk to me tomorrow, so call me. Ten minutes before quarter. I said, all right. I didn't have no sleep at all. My dad. I talked to my dad, but I was crying on

the phone. He's like, I want to believe, but I don't know, you know, and it's like I don't worry about those, you know. Whatever happens happened. So I called my layd at ten minutes. I could hear it in her voice. She said, it's over. I said, wait, you meaning it's over. She said, they're gonna vacated condition, dismiss the charges against you with prejudice, and order your immediate release. I said, whoa what? So he says it again, right, and she goes, it's over. I'll see you ten minutes.

And so I get up and I had to I'm going to court, I mean my cell at that time when I called, and I had the court and so along the way. Mind you, almost all the guards had seen the documentary and most of them are really sympathetic. Almost all of them are. They're always asking when you get now, I can believe this has been five years since, you know, it came out whatever, And I'm telling them, I said, look, I think i's gonna grown here we're talking about and I'm serious. And they were just high

fiving me, like oh okay. So I'm going up there telling everybody. I head over to the court. It's it's in the main person. So I go out there and go into the zoom mean and uh, the one of the one of the staff that worked there, she's the legal secretary, and she comes in. She goes, hey, I just watched doc commentary last night. Oh my god, that's horrible. And I said, I just got to evaluated. What do you mean? I said, well, I'm gonna go to court really,

And so I go in there. I get in there and for all they said, he goes, so you gotta She goes, so you want to answer order, right, because yeah, I just want to vacate order to vacate the conviction, dispised charging and SIS orders mejor police. And then the judge looks at my lawyer. He goes, you got anything to guess that, and she's like no, And then she looks at me and she goes, well, Mirsallas, it's a lots of change out there, but I think you'll do

real good. And so she entered the order and ordered my immediate release. So she looks at she but I want them to release now. And so I get up and my family cheering in the background. I don't have time to my talking lord. We think it's going to take a couple of weeks. We don't know how the paper's gonna work. So so I get up my head out and I'm just the happiest person every you know, and I'm telling everybody, hey, I've got exaggerary I'm going. I don't know where I'm going on. And so I

know all the staff. They're really good because I work with them with a bunch of programs I did in prison, all that kind of stuff, and so they were all super happy and excited. And there's these two that I work with a bunch of programs. I emailed them in this little thing that they have and yes, of Dad, when I just started tonnerate, you can come, you know, come talk to before I lead. You know, I think

it's gonna be a shoe days. So I'm in my room and they come up with the inner call and they say, well, no, no, those two people that have to work with come into my room and to myselves. I'm in a level two now. Also because I'm so close with my release, I don't four years. And so they come in they're like they hear about it, and

they're just so happy and everything. And they have watched the urinies that I got there and everything and that, and then not even I think it was like an hour later, they come up with the intercom and they say, so, pack your stuff up and go laundry. And then they come in with this thing. They're like, you're to go pack yourself and me and my me and my roommate. It was my roo for with two years, and we started grabbing or just sprawing it in there and just

not even cleaning. I like, here, you can keep them throwing all this stuff like the cod balk down here and carry it off. All my stuff out there, you know. I switched on to the release clothes that they gave me, and I come up with my sign of my release papers and this little building and they're like, well, here's six hundred dollars for the release offs. I hadn't seen money in me certain years, you know, and so and they're like, yeah, you got nothing to do with You'll

see everything's gone since then. So we're going to do the pat and we'll call you to the main. So I raced back call my dad and said Dad, He's like, what I still releasing right now? He said, we meet the rease you right now. Because they told them any I said, yeah, they're gonna release right now, come pick me up. They're all the way in Yakima, which is two hours away, two three hours away from his house. Dad he goes, we're gone, and then he hangs up on me. And so they take me to the main thing.

I go on the main and this this we tendant to come down you when it does it, And they already know the news. They you know, they're all they have smiles on their faces and everything. And so he's signed the paperwork and all that stuff. And it's funny because I had this. They had all I got. I'll show it to you. I got it. I got this. This thing I got shut. So I got the stage hanging in the wall room. And so what he told me, He's like, he's signed my paperwork. I'm signing my paperwork.

I go, uh, so here, I want to use this right now, right and so this.

all right, it's good, don't worry about it. So I sat there in this little this little area in front right there and still in the prison, but it's kind of outside of the prison, but it's in like a like a it's like a like a waiting room, like a you know, visit. And so as I did that once to the guards are streaming out and there should changes come in. So I know a lot of these

guards and they're seeing and they're shaking my hand. We heard the news and everything, and then the superintendent comes down. The winter he's pretty much the warden comes down and he looks at me and he said, look, I want to tell you sorry, And I said sorry. I said, we were sorry. Goes, I said, you didn't have them to do that. He goes, yeah, but I just want you to know that that was wrong, and I apologize for happen to keep it in the air. I said, well,

I appreciate you. He said, yeah, just so you know that, I just want you to hear that. A couple of the guards came and said sorry too, and I was like, well, you guys think they said you can have them to do it, you know, And and a couple of people that I knew for a while they were just super happy. And then, uh, the guards. I can for like three hours in the guard like, well, I think they're here.

I think that's your family right there. So I come on, there's my family and my dad on the racing number, and I just I cut my dad and my dad looks at me and he says, he says, uh, he said, I'm still alive, right, And I look at my dad and I said, I survived, I said. And my my family came up and they had their phones on there taking selfies, and I'm like, I'm like, man, let's get

out of here. What are you doing. I don't want to be in frontal So we jumped in the car and we into the McDonald's that's right down the street, right outside the prison. Ate there, and then you're assumed all the way back home and I I came back to the same house. This is the same room I was in when I went to prison. Wow, sing them yeah yeah. And then then this is home. This has been my home since I was a kid. And I come back to this house and I started seeing everything

that had seen so long. And I come out and there's a crowd in front of my house and it's all my family. So they're all my nephew niches that I've never met before, and just a long stream of people in and they're all shaking my hand. I'm so and so son, I'm so and So's daughter and this, and then it was just a long and I was sitting there like okay, okay, who are you? Are you? And then my brother, who I met for the first time,

is from one of my younger brothers. My dad's my dad's wife, and he was here, your first iPhone, right, and he gives me my iPhone fourteen and I was like, wow, what did I do with it? He's like, And then my my little nephew was younger. He was grazzling starts setting up for me and everything. And I didn't know what. I had never seen it before. I never even held my iPhone, you know. And and so that that was

the first first being out. And then an hour or two went by, and then uh stream of people from the town you know started coming with the bags of clothes. Fool some kind of just came and just gave me a hugged and they were just like telling me sorry, they were happy, they were and it was just a community came out. And the next week or two after that, every single place I went right here in the Sunnyside, there are people stopping me, giving me hugs and giving money.

I didn't want to accept their money, but they kept giving them to me, and they close and and and food and and and it was like and they were just all so grateful and happy that you know that that whatever place, that it's over for me, you know. So it was I think I could never when I was in prison. I never imagined, you know, that that my release would be like that. But I always hope that something along that line would happen. So it was. It was just a beautiful moment.

that can go down that path. But I think you telling your story and telling your story the way that you have, I don't need a job here doing a podcast. If you actually just pressed record and sat down and listened to your story. You narrated it beautifully, But there is something you can do by letting your story get out there because the courts aren't perfect. You know, the system's not perfect, and people that get caught up like you,

I think we need the warning sign there. But more importantly, I think the message that you get across is that you know, setbacks can be turned into a positive. And you know you've embraced what happened to you. You owned it, you dealt with it, you process it, and you came out as a good person. So full credit to you. I think it's an amazing journey that you've been on.

as a benefit in certain ways. And I made the decision must say, Okay, you know I got twenty four twenty seven years of my life. It was all on all that kind of stuff. But look what came from that, and look what I did from that. And fifteen twenty years from now, I want to look back and say, yeah, I was rough, you know, but look at look at the people I've helped, Look at look at what I've

done for my community, you know. And that's going to erase whatever I bliness, that whatever was, so it will be a memory of joy rather than one of suffering. And like I said, in the process of that, of dealing with that, I found who I was as a person. I found my purpose and I found my voice. And it took sometimes it takes a great deal of suffering, you know, to shake us and to reveal our true characters. And that's what it did, you know, that that that cop.

I don't know what reason he had to do that for me, you know, I don't know if he was seeking to destroy me as a person or what it was, but it had the opposite effect. It made me to a better person and and it showed my true character and I lived with that authentic personality. I do a lot of the community. I speak to the youth, I just the juvenile that I was housed in where all

this began. I was just there on Frivy speaking to the kids walking the hall that I walked it shackles and I actually sat in the seat of the judge who declined me to set me to the county jail. And I spoke to those kids, you know, and and and that's the part of of taking this tragedy and making into some positive only for myself, but for the people around me. And that's what I'm trying to do. It's not I haven't stopped since I've been really NonStop.

I work with some some youth that I understand because I understand what's missing their last because that was missent in mind. And I do it with the with the with the sincerity that comes from knowing where they come from me. And so I I was spoken to the cheap of police, if not say that she police is not the same moment back then. But I've talked to them, you know, I have no problems. I've taken pictures for

tell me. No, I've been to Advance where I was volunteer and handing out turkeys over there too, you know. So there's no there's no issue with that because I see it's beyond that. You know, I'm not going to let you know certain individuals you know attained what you know the department can be because you know it. We're when I look at the struggles that I face back then and the struggles that we face now in our town, we're on the same page. You know.

ahead of you. I want to do a shout out to your old man too, your father, because I think the fact that you have one good person like that that stood by you the whole way, and I know that your sisters have and you know, you've had other other people stand by you, and the lawyers the work that they did, the passion that they had to get justice for you, but the little things, and you articulated it very clearly, the little messages that your father gave

you gave you strength at times when you needed it. You helped him out at times when he needed it. But how much of a difference If you didn't have that guidance from that man, perhaps you would have lost your way in the prison system.

me a long time to realize that. It took me, you know, going through what I went through to realize. I wish I would have realized that younger on, because he always had that love for me. But yeah, that I remember, I'm only we had when I got out. So I used to always tell my dad when I got out, I was gonna go right because he's the truck driver and I was going to go work with the truck and all that kind of stuff. This is

like a week or two after I write out. So I go to work with him and I was sitting on the passion seat and we stopped by the stop right in the middle of the country. He's done a load, and I look at him. I said, Dad, I said, uh, you remember when I told you I was gonna ride I was gonna ride next hip and in the passion seat and your truck. And he looks at me. He says, yeah, I told you. Because he starts to cry and he says yeah with a big smile to It wasn't a tear.

It was you did something did and that my right there, it was like it was it all just came together at that moment. It was like it's almost like it's almost like two you know, two people survived something together and at that moment it's gone, it's past, and you look at each other. We made it to it. Yeah.

one that's not bitter about the world. But I think it's an inspiration to all of us.