The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective sy aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world.
This is Part two of my chat with Christy Charles, who's the sister of Rachelle Charles, the twenty three year old woman who has murdered in two thousand and one, a murder which remains unsolved to this day, along with investigative journalists Ashley Hand, who's been working with Christie on a podcast called Dear Rochelle. In Part one, we've got
an overview of the murder. In Part two, we speak about some of the things uncovered whilst looking at Rochelle's murder, which I hope, like Christy and Ashley, will put pressure on people to ensure justice is finally done. Murders like Rochelle's should not go unsolved. The podcast has been out for a little bit. Now are you happy with the impact that Dear Rochelle is having the getting your sister's murder out into the public.
I couldn't be happier. It's bigger than I ever thought was possible, and the coverage has been incredible. The marketing team, the whole team Rochelle, the team behind ash and just the reach that it's getting and has gotten is incredible.
And that is what you hope to achieve with getting involved in the project, like the podcast.
Yep, it's fitting for her. Just yeah she always you just so go hard to go home. I think they've definitely done that.
Yeah, definitely, it's been And what about you, Ashley? It certainly had an impact, it looked at all the media coverage of it, and people who are people are literally asking me questions on the street about it, So it's got people's attention.
That's great to hear.
I know, when you're working on a story like this, it feels like you're carrying this secret for so long. Because of the sensitive nature of the investigation, you couldn't really tell that many friends or family because we were trying to keep it under wraps. And so when it was finally out there, it was a bit overwhelming. I've got to say, just to see it in print and everywhere and finally know it's out there. But I just mainly felt really proud and finally, this is it.
This is what we've been working for. Let's go. So maybe more hard work starts.
Yeah, we'll get getting the impact. And quite frankly, I think it puts pressure on the person responsible for this, and I say, to that person now talking to you guys, I wouldn't like to be that person. Because there's one thing I'm very sure of, having worked homicide as long as long as I did. If an investigation gets a lot of media attention, there's a too fold benefit the way I see it, that you get the public interested in it. Public are interested, politicians are interested, and police
properly resource the investigation. And if it's been sitting in a cardboard box or sitting in brief boxes, on the desk somewhere. They tend to get open when there's some public public interest in a case. So I'm sure the type of exposure that dear Rachelle is getting across the police will be looking at it. The other thing that I think important, Christy, you might understand this, but it makes that Rachelle's life is not forgotten, and she's not forgotten.
Here we are over twenty years down the track and we're still talking about the type of person she is. Does that help you?
Yeah, it's pretty empowering. I feel really good about it. I feel like, oh, you know, we're giving her a voice, and I think that that's really important because we've been quite for so long. And yeah, there's someone out there listening to this who's feeling very uncomfortable about all this. I think that's incredible.
One percent. I like to think the pressure that person's feeling. And there's no statute of limitations on murder investigations, and you hear about it all the time, the unsolved homicide locking people up twenty years, thirty years down the track, and yeah, it's not going to be forgotten. And I'm sure they don't like the fact that it's back in the attention of the media.
Yeah, can I ask you a question about that, just as your experience as a homicide to active for so long, what happens to a person when something like this drops as someone that is guilty, that thinks that they've got away with murder something so serious for so many years and they think they're undetected. What happens when it starts exploding in the media Again, have you ever seen that from behind the scenes.
I've seen it, and I've spoken to people that we've done that too. And I was going to say it, if people are now listening to this podcast and Dear Rochelle podcast and all the interest in the media, have a look at the person that you might be watching or listening or talking about this, because a person responsible
for this will act strange. Now, that person might, if it comes on TV or it comes up on radio or whatever, might want to disengage from the conversation not talk about it, or they might talk about it incessantly.
But whatever's going on, the person responsible with all this exposure is going to act a little bit strange, and people that are close to that person will look at the person think why are we getting a reaction from that person because we're talking about this crime, because they will carry the guilt, will that will sit with them and they'll be thinking, well, I've got away with it,
and now the pressures on. So I think it creates a good opportunity for something to break and then the public, the public should if someone then forgot suspicion about someone, just someone that's ACKed in a little bit differently, when all this talk is about, dear Rochelle, okay, pass that onto the police. And I point this out that if you know someone's committed an offense and you don't come forward, there's a strong likelihood that you're committing in a serious
offense too. And these cases don't get forgotten. You can see Christy's here and I've got a sense of you enough to know you're not going to forget this, forget this case. So the pressure, pressure is going to be on. There's a reward out there, there's a whole range of things. But if they've got if the public have got information, they need to come forward, is no excuse not to come forward, and that could just be that little piece. But for the person responsible, yeah, I hope you're feeling
pretty nervous at the moment. You should feel nervous at the moment because at any time there could be a knock at the door, and that could be the police, and there goes your life. You're locked away for the rest of your life. So long answer to a short question. But I'm passionate about this. I think this is the type of pressure that should be applied to people. You should not be able to get away with murder.
So couldn't agree more.
Yeah, that's my little pitch, and let's hope the person is listening to it. And in answer further to your question, do the people involved in these crimes listen to the media one hundred percent seen it and time and time again, and they can say I know, I'm not interested. They'll be listening and they'll be panicking, and they might make a stupid move. So this is the type of pressure that.
Yeah, and should their family and friends be asking them questions?
What should they do?
I think? So, if I was sitting beside someone that I suspect of a murder, why are you reacting that way? What's triggering? Why don't you want to talk about this case? Or why do you overreact every time it gets mentioned and it will get mentioned like the public or interest in it now, so it will get mentioned, so you don't have to have to front the person. But if you've got concerns, pass the information on the police. And
it can be done discreetly too. It can be passed on so the person doesn't know where the where the information is coming from. There's so many different ways that this information can be passed on. So I get excited sitting down with people like yourselves so they're doing something like this like I did with Headley, because that is making the difference. That is the way these difficult crimes get solved by putting the pressure on. So I'm a
big believer in using the media. If we want to call podcast media, which is a form of it, now we can use it in a positive way. So yeah, I think it's great, Like you could have gone on it could have been an article in the paper or whatever, but it doesn't get that sort of in, that buy in that the public get when they're listening to a podcast and listening to it unfold and they're all coming up.
Everyone thinks they're a detective. So everyone's coming up going I think it's this person, that person but it just creates that environment. And when it's all said and done, what are we doing it four is to get justice for Rachelle and so the pressure. So, yeah, have a look at the person that's acting strange and start to question why they're acting.
Strange and what would you say, Gary to someone that may be close to this person, either back then or now that might feel afraid.
Well, there's protections that can be put in place, and I can understand the concerns and being afraid, but you could approach the police in the strictness of confidence and the information wouldn't get out and the protections would be put in place. So I do understand the fear that people might might have in pointing the finger at someone or a concerning but there are measures that can be put in in place to protect that person, so you don't need to be fearful and it can be treated
with the strictness of confidence. So anyway, Chrissy, sorry, Ashley and I are falling back into our old rolls. Actually has been a journalist and we've completely lost track. Oh that's right, this is a this is a podcast. Okay, we'll get back to it. But yeah, I think they're important important messages. So, yeah, what and there's so much that's been uncovered in the investigation that's been done on the podcast. What are the things that you guys think
are interesting? And we don't know, we haven't got time to go through the full details, but just a couple of things that have uncovered that excite you ll have got you curious, that have flowed out from what's been done on the podcast.
I think that the warping shaw and the significance of the warping shaw is incredibly important. You want to add, Yeah, well.
I'm I'm really curious and about the key pieces of evidence and one of them, just for example, the tank.
Yeah, and the.
Reason because so many experts, former detectives have given us insights into the mind of a killer and the mind of someone who disposes of a body and what the
process they go through. And so when we look at the tank, which was the initial possibly the initial place where the killer had intended to hide Rochelle's body, but that didn't work out for one of many reasons, which may have been that the concrete lid was too heavy for one person potentially or they couldn't slide it off for whatever reason, or there wasn't enough room in the tank to fit Rachelle, so they've resorted to the fire.
So I'm interested to ask you if you think the significant of the tank or if you think that the tank is significant, because you when we went down there, that's when it really had an impact on.
Me, thinking it's nighttime.
You wouldn't be able to see the tank at nighttime, and who what are the chances that someone would just stumble upon this tank? So the thinking is that somebody knew that the tank was there, so they had to have been familiar with the area.
And you said that to.
Me in one of our first interviews when we were down there as well, that why are you so confident that the killer you.
That area find And I remember it's well, I mean, we couldn't find it when we went down there, but it's it's cleared a lot more than it was back then and when because I used to go in there and sit in there, which some people.
So it's a concrete tank in.
Yeah, concrete tank.
So it had at the time a concrete thick, concrete lid, and but that lid has now been replaced with a plastic lid and the ground kind of So it's not obvious now, but at the time, from what I understand, you describe it because you've seen it.
Yeah, you had to duck in under a branch and it was a lot of room to.
Be in there. And it's a public bush land.
It's pretty close to the road the National Park. It's behind the tree line and you'd have to sort of duck in. And I didn't realize that you could get to it from the back. And I think that's what the killer did, that they have taken her behind.
And then is it on the beach side the road?
Okay, so it's on the eastern side of GIRoA Road or the Crooked River Road seven mile Beach GIRoA.
That runs all the way down, Okay.
The back road to Naura.
I know the road. I a couple of things and we'll talk about the experts you've you've got working on the on the podcast. A couple of things that jump out to me with this, the circumstances surrounding because quite often you can work out a lot by the manner and the way in which the the victim's body has been disposed of. This to me doesn't look like a planned crime. It looks like such a situation that's escalated. That's the sense I get at it, A get of it.
I'm also a starting point with when you're looking at why has a body been disposed in this location? I agree with what you touched on where other people have said it's an area that familiar with Quite often when people are disposing bodies, they go there and dispose it because they're familiar with the are. If someone knew about the tank and discreet tank, it would be a good place to locate the body. To me, it seems strange because we're talking one hundred kilometers from the location to Giraa.
There's a risk associated with driving a car if you have someone that's a body in the car, so there's obvious risk there to go all that way out and then dispose of a body in the manner To me, it strikes as panic. You've set the body alight. Well, there's more likelihood that someone's going to discover the body. If you light a fire, you're destroying potentially forensic evidence. But there seems to be a panic about it. So it's someone that didn't plan it and escalate, just escalated.
I think it's a reasonable case theory that if it's right near the tank, that that was the intended intended location. And then the car. Is there any suggestion that the Rochelle's car was used to convey what basis was?
There were three there were sightings or separate sighting four people, three cars, so a couple in one car. There were four four witnesses had cited a car similar to Rochelle's, if not one witness who knew his Holden's described basically Rachelle's car so.
Pretty much said it was it was a VB commodoel but it looked like a v H which is exactly what it is, because it's a VB Commodore. But it's got the VH lights and grill.
You're the expert here.
He described it on the on the vehicle.
Well yeah, okay, Well that's interesting, isn't it. And that if her car was there taken to dispose of Rachelle's body there and then driven all the way back to hopefully just the hotel, all the way back there, okay.
And the thinking is as well that perhaps they were already down there.
So that's when it escalated.
Chris Illingsworth, who is a criminal profiler, that has given us insights into what she believes happened. Her thinking is that she was probably killed and the incident has had and closer to Jiroa as opposed to back in Bargo. But because there are those missing nine hours and there are no independent witnesses or any forensic evidence to show where Rochelle was killed, that's one of the biggest mysteries of this case. We don't know where she was killed, so we only know where she was found.
It's a reasonable and I know Chris and she's very experienced a reasonable assumption that escalated down there because it's a long way to go to dispose of a.
Body where expanse of bush land, between.
So many other locations where a body could be disposed of. So again that sound sounds reasonable.
But then still you would wouldn't You still expect though, that they go to a place like Mick Ashwood says that they're familiar with. So again, what takes this person to find that tank or to go looking for that tank. I think you're right though, and I definitely do believe that it's more likely that the murder wasn't planned, perhaps
something else was planned. That's my feeling on it that it's probably more likely that whoever took Rochelle that night, whoever met up with her, probably planned something, maybe some sort of sexual encounter, and had hoped that it would go it would be consensual, or maybe that already planned to Yeah, something so sinister. Maybe they'd planned something sinister already, but it wasn't as bad as murder. I'm not really sure. We're never going to really know that, are we.
Well, hopefully we will, Hopefully we'll, But I suppose it's speculation if went there with an intent, that that intent didn't play out. Twenty three year old girl like Rachelle, I'm thinking that's yeah. Is there a suggestion that it was sexually motivated the crime?
Yes?
What brings people to that conclusion?
Well, she was she didn't have any clothes on from the waist down right, And yeah, we've had every detective that's worked on it said that they believe it was sexually motivated. Yeah, we don't have any evidence of rape or sexual assault, but that could be as a result of the fire.
What about the forensic examination of the car? Did that reveal anything? You've indicated in part one that your assessment, and I think it's a very sound assessment that she wasn't the person that parked the car there.
Yeah. So the police have bits of the car, they have the steering wheel, they have a bit of carpet, They've got bits and pieces that they took off the car, but they weren't able to lift any DNA off any of that. The sheet that they found nearby, they believe that was used, however, that was contaminated by a police officer. So the DNA found on that.
Was it is? Has there been a recent forensic review? Do you know if there's no?
But I've asked for it because.
That's I know with old homicides that I've had because of the improvements and the changes in forensic science, at a forensic review and gave for all the exhibits that are still still retained.
Yeah, I've asked for it. They weren't keen on it.
Yeah. Who are you speaking to in REGARDSS that was Nigel or own it?
Unsolved homicide?
Yeah, and more recently Matthew Russell, right, and what was the restinale behind that? Well? It like their arguments are that's a strong argument. You can't there's a finite amount of times that you can test something, so it's not something that they routinely go back and test. If there's some reason for it, they will, but they won't just go back over everything.
Yeah. Well, you mentioned the names, and it's difficult for me because I know both both those people and I respect both those people. Yeah, and so do I and Nigel. I actually worked with him. I supervised him in his early early days in homicide, and he's a very consciouest just good operator. So I think you've got a good person there. But yeah, I can understand your frustration.
Yeah, we had when we were looking at the car. We were looking at the petrol cap and we weren't convinced that that was ever tested. I've asked Matthew Russell and he can't find any evidence of if it was tested. He can't find what happened with it, so he's not sure whether it was or not. So he said he's put in put that in the hands of a squad near where I live, and they're going to come out and seize the petrol cap and they are going to test, which is great.
Well, I think to me, and I do listen to names, and you form your own views, but I think with Nigel and Matt. That's the point in a good direction that gives me.
And they've always been really willing to talk to me. I've had meetings with them and they put up with me digging my heels in and having, you know, selling them exactly what I think. They're very good. They're good towards me.
They're they're both nice people too.
Yeah, that's and Matt's a car Holden Fank as well, so we.
Went I think Nigel is too. He's a bit of a bit of a redhead. So you've been able to talk on that level. Yeah, but yeah, these are the things that it's so hard, hard for the family. And what I take away from that, the fact that they're talking to is such a positive, positive situation because it's when families get stonewalled. I think half the time that police might be working on the case, but they're not
keeping the families informed and that creates that pain. There was in one of the episodes I heard on the podcast that there was I think he was a boss of homicide at the time, Scott Cooked talking about CCTV footage that was couldn't be found. What was that in relation until we touched on it and in part one.
Yeah, so they see CCTV footage from petrol stations between Vargo and now On. And the reason for that is one, if you're driving a V eight commodore, you know, pass everything on the road except for a petrol station. And because an accelerant was used, right and because Rochelle was so broke, she would only put you know, five ten dollars worth of fuel in the car at the time because she just never had any money. So if her car was used and it traveled one hundred kilometers each way,
they would have needed to put fuel in it. So that's why there's a tension on the field cap because the field cap is one of those key locked silver caps behind like a flat that you can open with your hand. But there's no fingerprint, dust or anything on the cap. So that's why we questioned. We had Chris Darcy from Search Dogs looking at it and he questioned whether that had ever been tested, and that's a.
Really good question. Well, it makes sense if they're coming back and the petrol person driving the car back. But the cc TV for the job had a lot of success with investigations getting there at service stations where people are up to no good heading along the highways, so is there any hope that that might be found.
They lost it really early on, and I think Christian Olivari's and his team went right through wherever it was supposedly stored and they couldn't find it either at the time of the inquest, ye, so they have had a lot of people looking for it.
There are two segments of CCTV that, according to the brief that we have, is still in police possessions. So Christy has asked Unsolved if they'll let her look at it, at least just Christie, just so that she could rule it in or out. Because there is a woman on one of the segments of CCTV within close proximity of where Rochelle's body was found, but also just a few hours before she was found. So there's one piece of
CCTV that has a woman and an unknown man. Both of them are unknown, so a woman and a man. And then the second piece of CCTV was about an hour later, I think, and that had just two men on it and a commodore, but the number.
Plate was obscured because of the hype.
They had their lights on and they didn't turn their lights off when they filled up right, So my feeling on that was was that intentional? Did they leave the lights on by mistake or was that a deliberate attempt to disguise the number plate and obscure the number plate? So that's why Christy wants to see that CCTV.
Is there a.
Suggestion that could have the female could have been rachelle Is?
We just don't know.
So at the very least, you would think that Christy would have been shown that CCTV to say absolutely not that is not.
Her or who is this person?
Because even though it's almost twenty four years old, I still think that even if it is just black and white, a family member could could make out someone if they're identifiable.
With the car.
The car, so oh no, if it's the car, yeah, okay.
So that's how that's our question to police is why has Christy never been shown this CCTV if it does exist? Because according to the brief, that was not this CCTV that was lost, the other CCTV.
Other CCTV was lost. Okay, so there is some but you've never seen it.
No, And I've asked to say, and I can't remember what the response was. The other CCTV footage that they've got is from the Bargo train station. Yeah, apparently that's very grainy and very hard to make anything out.
Matt Russell said that.
He said, it's really hard to.
Yeah, well, certainly improved the CCTV type coverage that you get in this day and age, but the old ones are hard. But the fact that the car was where it was parked, someone who parked it had to leave that location too. But I would imagine that that footage was grabbed very early in the investigation because otherwise that we probably wouldn't have have copies of it because it
gets disposed of sometimes. To put your mind to these, I know there was a lot of time, doesn't really put your mind to these, but knowing that these mistakes shouldn't happen down the track. Not the impacts on this investigation, but the practices are a lot better now on where exhibits are stored. It used to be. I won't say ad hoc. There was a system in place, but it was a system that failed too often and the exhibits were misplaced. And you think, well, how can you lose
an exhibit to a murder investigation? But police stations someone retires and boxes left there, it gets moved, someone comes in and it's happened too often, but now they've got a system in place that that should not happen. Down the track with the podcast, you've got some expert opinion on the situation or people that were involved in the investigation. Can we talk through a couple couple of them? You mentioned Chris Illingsworth, What did you run past her? What
type of things were you looking at? Chris to provide, well.
Chris was involved in profiling Rochelle's killer, so she has intimate.
Knowledge about the case.
She examined a lot of the evidence and wrote a report to the New South Wales Police Force about the behavior, the type and profile the killer. So for that reason, she was someone that I really wanted to speak to and she was willing to because she believes, like most retired police officers, that getting that information out there could help and could take this case a little bit further.
And she also believes in a podcast too, So she was on board and she wanted to help the family and was very generous with her time and went back over her memory of the case and also met us down at GIRoA and gave us some really fascinating insights into what she believed happened. Fascinating but also traumatic for Christy to hear. And that was a really difficult conversation to have to relay to her what Chris had relayed
to us. So but you know, in true Christie's style, she just takes it and just processes it and says, I wanted out there. You know, this is what he did to her, and it's part of the part of the evidence, and we could it could help us.
The cause of death. What was what was put down as the cause of death.
It was unknown, but either strangulation or suffocation.
Right, Okay, Damien learn and the people that would have heard that name from from here and he's been a guest on this, but he was also the detective involved in the teacher's pet like a dog with a bone when he's on the case. So you consulted consulted with him. So that's a good choice. What did Damien bring to the podcast?
Well, I shared the brief of evidence with him and asked him if he wanted to get on board because I needed help and I wanted someone who could independently help me pull out the key pieces of evidence that we wanted to use in the podcast, and for obvious reasons his profile with the Teacher's Pet. He was also retired, and I thought he might have the time because it is really hard to get people to commit to such
a big project. But when I reached out to him, he said yes, absolutely, And then he tells a different story that I just fronted him at the airport basically with a brief of evidence and he did agree to meet me though, and yeah, he started reading the case and then we just had regular contact and I surprised Christy with having him on board, and which was really nice, just because they have felt forgotten for so many years. So to bring someone with a profile like that to
the case, I just thought it was. Yeah, it just shows that there are still many people that are interested in Rachelle's case and getting justice for her and your family. So I just thought he'd be a great person to bring on board and his knowledge and his analysis of the case. And he's just a straight shooter as well. He's great for a podcast. He's got a great voice. He just gets straight to the point and tells it like it is.
He doesn't care about ruffling feathers, which is a good trait to have when you're involved in that type of stuff. Chritsie, you would have been happy for him to come on board.
Yeah, he's really cool.
You need those crazy, crazy human beings to sometimes push it a long day.
That's all right. I relate to that side of him really well. He's yeah, and we agree on a lot of things when it comes to the case. And just having his insight was incredible, and he's just so giving with his time and he's just such a good guy.
Yeah. And it must know you've carried this for so long and having a team of good people, committed people must must give you some contentment knowing that people.
Are looking at it's incredible.
Mick Ash would Okay, Mick took and off, Michael. We're discussing it because I know Mick well and we worked together in homicide, and I was thinking he might have reviewed it in Unsolved homicide. When you said I think Chrissy, that Mick ashwould became involved twelve months after either was running the investigation. I think Mick would have been on the floor as in one of the working teams at
that point in time. And I think the processes that we had in place here that if an investigation like this one had got to a certain point, homicide would come down and act as a consultant or taken. So I think that was the capacity. I thought it might have been unsolved, but he probably was on the floor. Giving the time.
Frame, that's likely.
As I said, my memory of that's shaky.
And how have you found Mick Ashwood's input. He's out of the cops now, so he's not he doesn't have to do the corporate spin. How has Mick?
I haven't spoken to Mick. I've spoken to a couple of others, but I's just spoken to Mick a few times.
How'd you find Mick?
He's incredible And again his insights and his expertise on looking at the case and pointing me in the right direction as to what I should focus on and why he thinks it's important. And just again his time is always available when I ring him up because I've got a query about something and he just has intimate knowledge of the case and what he believes may have happened. And yeah, and who we should be focusing on as well, he has some insights about that from my perspective as a journalist.
Great, So happy to have him on board.
Well, you you're putting together a good team and all the different skill sets and expertise that you've bought brought together the inquest. When when the inquest was finalized, what did the coroner come back with? What?
Finding persons unknown?
How did that make you feel?
I wasn't surprised by that point.
Yeah, yeah, did you go to the inquest with expectations.
That this one?
I was hopeful, but you know, we'd been not let down by anyone in particular. We've been let down a lot over the years, So we were hopeful, but not confident.
Now and correct me if if I'm wrong, And if I'm wrong here will probably have to delete this. But I think I read in the media that there were nine persons of interest identified at the inquest, that two were not required to give evidence. I think at too, it might have been more were not required to give evidence because the coroner thought that's not going to take the matter any further. The others got in some in the evidence that they provided, it was clear that they
had alibis or it was exculplatory. There was one person of interest that couldn't be eliminated. Are we touching on dangerous grounds here or is that where we're that's where we're up to. Okay. And that person, and my understanding, was someone that Rachelle worked with. We want to talk about that.
Yeah, he was her boss. His name is Kevin Carrell. And yeah, he sort of took her under his wing and showed at the ropes of selling his cars. And he was the one that allowed her to take cars home. They had a really good relationship. It was a bit of a mentor mentee relationship ship from Rochelle's perspective. Yep, she really looked up to him. Yeah, they got along really well. But she got along with everyone though.
What she was twenty three? How how old was he?
He would have been in his forties Yeah, early forties, maybe forty three from memory.
Okay, So he was her boss. And does that bring it back to the car that she was excited about on the day. Forget the what's the talkie or what's well? Not well, sorry, no walkie talking? Okay, walky? You think that was that he had said that she could have that car that weekend. Okay. And this was all heard at the inquest. It was did I again correct me
if I'm wrong. But one of the part of the podcasts I listened to that one of Rochelle's friends said that she couldn't talk in front of him about going out on a girl's weekend.
Yeah, she didn't want to, didn't want to annoy him.
More secretive about her private life. Yeah, And Damien Luhne has some insights about that. He says, well, that's a red flag because why would someone why would a twenty three year old woman be so afraid to share her personal life with someone that she trusted and someone that.
She worked with.
So there's another person that works there as well, Fiona, her friend, and she gives insights as well about that time in Michelle's life and her relationship with her, and she just sort of calls it.
Out that it was a little bit odd, bit strange.
Odd that he wanted to know about her.
He was very obsessed with her life and knowing about her personal life. But then at the same time, this particular trip to Queensland, he wasn't happy about that. And she was going to meet a young man in Queensland that she'd met over the internet, and the internet was only just emerging in two thousand and one, so it was a bit of a new thing. So Fiona and her went to Queensland on this girl's trip, but it
didn't go down well with Kevin and Fiona. And the feelings around that are that he possibly fancied her and he had a bit of a thing for her. He played favorites with her, gave her lots of benefits in terms of cars and her access to the cars, and that's how you describe it.
He remember her telling me, oh, Kevin used to be a detective, that they were. That was the sort of the stories that he would tell her. And he wasn't a detective. It was Yeah, he was talking himself up to this young pretty girl and she believed him because she respected him.
Yeah, well, somewhere the twenty three year old working in an environment, you shouldn't be concerned about what her personal life is, and that is a concern.
Yeah, And there were reports from his girlfriend at the time that he would make comments about about Rachelle and he'd be disappointed in her behavior, like her personal behavior and things that were uncharacteristic of a boss.
And this all came out at the inquest.
Yes, he made comments about her wearing makeup, described her as a tart on one occasion, so spoke really negatively about her, and there was almost like this marked shift in his behavior and his thoughts and feelings towards her. So it makes me wonder as a journalist, did she reject him?
Was there any kind of.
You suggestion that they were going to he wanted more from her and she rejected him, And maybe then that has escalated over time.
Well, these are all the questions ideally that would be asked and answered at the inquest. Was he called to give evidence at the inquest? And how did that play out?
He did give evidence at the inquest, but there were many questions he didn't answer because he executed his right to silence, executed his right to refuse to answer questions on the grounds that it may incriminate him, which is his legal right. And he was legally represented at the inquest, so there was a lot of legal arguments about what was asked of him, what he was prepared to answer.
You're quite right, that is his legal right that he doesn't have to answer a question on the grounds that may incriminate him. And I've seen people time and time again getting the witness box and take that protection. Sometimes it's for something that's not related to what the inquest is about. Sometimes it could be that was making a joint that night.
And that could be that could have been the case because there were other issues happening at Camden Holden at the time, that that could be the reason why he didn't want to incriminate himself.
Okay, I always look opportunity madeive capability and opportunity falls in the factor of alibi evidence. Was there any alibi evidence that he presented that I was at home or I was in the state on the day she disappeared? Was any alibi evidence presented?
Yes, but it was you know, no one saw him, right, so he presented and actually see anyone in his alibi, so there was no one to corporate what he were saying.
He presented a very involved alibi that involved going shopping, going to a service station, go into a pub, briefly going to a takeaway food store, even mentioned going to his girlfriend's house, but she wasn't home.
At one stage.
He said he's driven past Campden Holden and has seen the cleaner and has had a really brief conversation with the cleaner and all the people that he came into contact with that night that he says, police can't verify it, and the cleaner even gave evidence at the inquest and said, I have no memory of anyone pulling me up that night, and he was interviewed pretty soon after Kevin was interviewed about his movements on the seventh of June two.
Thousand and one.
So his alibi can't be proven and it can't be disproven. So that's always been the difficulty about this investigation as well, because there were so many persons of interest and so many people in her Rochelle's life that had to be looked at, and for whatever reason, they didn't manage to prove or disprove Kevin's alibi.
We don't know whether so that's what he did that.
Night, left hanging. I think I should point out at this stage that Kevin Carrell has strenuously denied any involvement in the murder of Rachelle Childs. Yes, that's true, and he's consistently maintained that position.
He has and he's always cooperated with police as well, and has volunteered his time to participate in interviews with detectives about Rochelle's murder.
And he's always denied any involvement.
There was a couple of other lines of lines of inquiry. I think that was there was someone that Rachelle saw the night before and his petrol can was found in the Oh.
That's the next door name, right, Yeah, yeah, they did clear him, I understand.
Yeah.
Yeah, So okay, we've had the had the inquest and what you was adding again to two thousand and eight? Eight?
Okay, two thousand and eight, the findings were handed down.
All right, so you're the family, there's been an investigation, You've got no result. There's been a change of teams running the investigation. It's gone to inquest. Looks like it's been prepared and the police have done their best currying the hands down their findings, and still none the wiser. What's the next time you were contacted by police or what's the next thing, because if we're talking two thousand and eight, this is a long time ago.
What they doubled the reward in twenty eleven, okay, from one hundred thousand to two hundred thousand.
Was that your initiation or no?
I can't remember why they did that. Yeah, and then nothing.
So probably difficult as well, just to be fair because as you say, your dad was.
The main point of contact.
Yeah, point of contact, So yeah, they could have been. There could have been. It's it's hard to say whether there was, you know, unless because I know that you say that you don't have a good memory of it. So it's it's sort of hard to say whether or not Graham was speaking to how often Graham was speaking to police, and what was what was happening between them, such with Christian Olivris.
Yeah, he would have been unsolved homicide Christian, Yeah.
But nothing substantial happened.
Right right, Okay, so looking at this way, but that.
Was twenty and eleven when that.
Reward reward increased.
We're in twenty twenty five and it's still at two hundred thousand dollars, which isn't a huge amount of money if it's going to change somebody's life to come forward with critical information, and.
Rewards don't get paid a lot of the time, So I think, yeah, and quite often families would come to me because I was involved in the first million dollar award with Willim Tyrrel and that was after a discussion with a politician and then the me and dollar award came out and then I got in not inundated, but contacted by other families saying, well, if why is that case worth a million dollars and why he is ours one hundred and fifty thousand, and that I think there
could be rewards a tactical thing. You've got to use them at the right time for the right reason. But yeah, when we're looking at two hundred thousand dollars, it's not life changing now, but a million dollars perhaps, you know, that might might push push someone to come forward. That if they did know the person that was going to change their life or their life was going to be disrupted, that might motivate them. But the point I'm trying to get to here is two thousand and eight inquests, Okay,
well we've got no answers. Twenty eleven, Okay, the reward has been an increase. That's good. There's a bit of attention. We're now two thousand and twenty five, we're talking about this, and I'm sure the police are looking at this because of the podcast. What do you think would have happened if you didn't do the podcast?
Can't swear, but nothing. I contacted the police in twenty unsolved in twenty twenty one and I was emailing a man named Stuart at the time, and he said that they were assessing Rochelle's case to see if they'll do a review, and so I gave him. He said, give me a month. I gave him three months and emailed him and I just never heard back from him. Then when I spoke to Nigel Warren last year, he said, well, at that point in time, Stuart actually retired. So then
I said, okay, well what happened with it? And he said, well, we can't find an assessment. We don't know what happened. So I said to him, are you telling me that I was lied to? And he said no, I don't know if you were lied to or not. You said, I don't think so, So I said, okay, well, when when's the next assessment of her case? And he said
it'll be this year, which was last year. And then when I spoke to Matthew Russell, they were focusing their efforts on older cases at the time, so they weren't actually doing an assessment of Rochelle's case and they said, you know, and I said, so, don't hold my breath and he said.
No, don't want to breath right, right, So.
But but then now they are so miracle squeak you will.
This is a squeaky will.
But I'm happy about that. I'm thrilled that they're doing that, and I'm not. I know I sound critical, but it's I know that they've only got, as I said, a finite number of resources, and they've got to make those decisions which are really hard. And I'm the family, so I obviously want it for Rochelle. But there's eight hundred unsolved cases.
Yeah, I know, but also you have the right to, yeah, ask and I'm confident for you. And I'm saying this, I'm looking you in the eye here that the fact that you got Nigel you're talking to. No, he wouldn't bullshit to you, like I'd say it up front. I know the way he operates and I know the person he is, so it's a good person looking at it. I think it's sad that you need to do that
squeaky will to get people to look at it. People put faith in the fact that their brief is that unsolved homicide, and for years I cringe when I heard coroners say, look, we don't know what's happened, but rest assured. We're referring this matter to unsolved homicide, and there's been a lot of coverage in the media about the failings of the unsolved homicide where cases weren't being reviewed and
cases weren't being followed up. So, yeah, you're doing all that you can to get attention on your sister's murder.
I think it's a reflection of how underresource they are too. Yeah, can't expect them to work miracles.
No, no, but it's someone's life's been taken. You expect things to be done properly. Where to from there?
We need people to come forward. We're hoping that, as Damien Luhn has said in his interviews, we're hoping that the relationships that existed back then that may have prevented people from coming forward now don't exist. And now that people are you know, have another twenty years on them, and they're more mature and they understand the gravity of keeping silent, that they will come forward. And we want them to know that we're not going to whacky with
a stick for not coming forward earlier. We're going to welcome you with open arms and we want you to come and talk to us.
That's good, good message. To put out. Yeah, and I think quite quite reasonable. But just congratulations on the podcast and I've enjoyed the listen. It really takes you deep inside what happened. If people want to listen to the podcast, how do they listen to Dear Rochelle.
Well, they can go to the website www dot Dear Rochelle dot com dot au and if you subscribe to News Corp Australia Mastheads, you get early access to episodes, so we encourage people to do that if they want to listen, and you can follow all the news and the breaking news through that website and also through your News Corp mastheads.
I wish you guys all the best in getting the result to this. For this it deserves a result and my instinct from a homicide to take this point of view, it is solvable. It's definitely definitely solvable. So hopefully the podcast you're doing, the attention that you're getting that will encourage people to people to come forward.
Thanks Gary,