The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. In Part two of I Catch Killers, I continue my chat with Andrew Stamper, who is a former commander of Victorian Homicide Squad and the Missing Person Squad. Andrew takes us deep inside the investigation of the brutal rape murder Eurodissy Dixon, who was killed by a stranger while she
was walking home. That was a really sad case. After facing some of the worst of humanity, we also discussed the pressures of leading major investigations and how he survived so long at the sharp end of policing. Have at listened to what Andrew has to say? Andrew Stamp, Welcome back to part two of I Catch Killers.
Thank you.
That's always good to speak to a cop. We seem to speak a certain language. This is not in my show notes here, but I'm going to say this Michael Francisi, that he's a mafia capo. You look exactly like him.
Is that right? Check where from.
New York mafia? He's a big He was a capo in the Columbia Mafia in New York. He was one of the most powerful mafia figures going around in his time. I've had him on the podcast and I also did a tour around the country. As strange as that sounds, with mafia cape, but have a look when you reform, reform, reform, I think Edie's peak he was earning eight million dollars a week. He was in had some scam going with petrol xiz and all that. But yeah, it was a real deal.
But obviously a fairly good look and.
A great a great style of a black Yeah. But I just sitting there just look. Yeah, anyway, we'll get back, get back on topic. When we're talking the other day, you were talking about the pressures of leadership leading high profile investigations, but you also mentioned the word and it made me think too about the loneliness of leading investigations because you've got people sitting above you and you're answering to them, You've got your team underneath you that you're
trying to support them. It can be a fairly lonely position, can't it.
Oh, definitely, Yeah, the amount of times I said in my office, and you do feel like you know the meat in the sandwich a little bit, because, yeah, the expectations of the higher level. You put all your efforts into looking after your team as well and making sure that you know that or trying to do your best to make sure that you know that their welfare is
guided for. And something that often used to occur to me is that no one ever used to come and tap me on the shoulder, and you know, certainly from the higher level. And I'm not critical in it because I think you.
Know that's just that's the nature of the position.
You get lost as a as a senior investigating officer, and it's something that I've spoken about, you know, certainly the leadership forums around the country as well, that it can be a lonely place. And that's why, you know, I was always and still am a big advocate for self care and looking after yourself because I don't think you can look after others unless you look properly, unless you look after yourself. So that's that's been something that I've I've been a strong advocate for.
How did you manage that? How did you manage a pressure looking after yourself?
I did a lot of a lot of fitness work, Like I run, not as far or as as well as I used to.
Still you've still got one good brother.
Still I was still I was still out running this morning, even with a bit of sunshine in Melbourne. So running, you know, has been a big thing for me. I love the rhythm of running, and you believe it or not, I listen to hip hop music so big shout out here to the hilltop who you know. For some reason, I just kind of just like the rhythm of it. It just kind of yeah, just put some of that on and go for a run, and it just helped me to clear clear my head. And you know, another
fitness work. There's a lot of research now that shares that actually proves that resistance training, so lifting weights is a great thing for your mental health too, and I'd be a strong advocate for that, But I I use a word of caution as well now, and that you know from my own personal experience. I think fitness, like any other medication, should come with a bit of a
warning that you can do too much of it. And I don't think at times that I probably started to wear myself out physically through exercise, through trying to actually come my brain a little bit. So that's a word of caution there. I do think there's no no medication for mental health better than getting out in the fresh air or going to the gym and having a good workout.
But yeah, like anything else, you can become a bit addicted to it, and it can become if you let it, it can turn into a bit of a negative as well.
So when you say running, I used to do a lot of running as well, and it's like a moving form of meditation. You could just get in and lose yourself in that, and that's the way I Yeah, twenty five years investigating homicides, and that's the way I would deal with it like the physical training like people you okay, and I would and encourage my team. I thought there
was nothing better than the team building. If we all went down to the gym at lunchtime, if the time was there, or if I knew we had a busy day, let's all train in the morning, get it out of the way, and then we can do what needs to be done.
And it's changed a lot over the years, and that's very much, you know, I think, you know, cops have all different areas, you know, far more in the fitness now, whereas you know, it's not the life that we started off with. Certainly, you know, it was more likely to go down the pub at the end of the day and go to the gym. But you know, certainly for me for the last twenty five years as well, it's been more around fitness and just kind of looking trying to look after myself that way.
Well, when you say not to go over the top. When I first started in the end, whole up squad, and this is year up squad of the eighties, so you eighties and early nineties, so you can imagine the amount of the drinking that was going on there. I was heavily into my fitness, and I got to the point where I was just burning myself out. I can't drink all night then train all day and try to fit work in there. So I sort of stepped away from the drinking and thinking I can't can't keep this
pace up, but the fitness side of things. But look, I think it's an important message and hopefully people that are listening to this might be encouraged to join the police or even police officers listening to it. Like it's helped me with a lot of pressure going through it. And it's interesting that you that's the first thing you say about the benefits of physical training to get you
through the get you through the pressure. And it helps on those jobs when you're up for twenty four hours and that, and I could see that the people that could handle the pace of that when you know, some of those jobs come and you just got to operate without sleep and just keep pushing forward.
Yeah, but you know, I'd still go to the gym at the end of that as well. And people think you're crazy, you know, you've been up all night, but you know, just go to the gym just to wind down a little bit and I'm certain towards the end, I preferred to work out at the end of the day rather than the beginning of the day. It's just kind of the way it worked with me, just to help, just to clear my brain a little bit before I got home.
No, I think it's a good thing. And if my team were looking for me, they'd say I was in the happy place, and that happy place was a gymnasium or the local police boys club in case I want to want to talk about. It's a horrible case, and I think it touched on a lot of people because of the nature of the crime and just the randomness of the crime. Was the murder of a comedian. You're a DC am I pronouncing that correct? Yeah?
I think eurrot Is or Eurydicy Youdic Dixon.
She was only twenty two years old and was raped and murdered walking through the streets of Melbourne. You're involved in that matter, Can you tell us about that case?
I was in charge of homicide of that particular time when that happened, and you know, as you know, you as leading the squad like that, you've got a lot of people that are actually doing the hands on stuff. So yeah, I've got to actually make a big shout out to the people that actually, you know, manage that investigation from the start, because I have a strong feeling about that particular investigation, and we caught that individual within twenty four hours, and my view is that he would
have gone on and done more if we hadn't. It was so random the way it happened, and his trajectory of offending was so significant. I honestly believe that if he hadn't been called, he would he would have gone and done more. So I've got enormous pride and respect
for the people that actually ran the investigation. I as being in charge of the squad, was the public face of that at the time, which was which was particularly difficult because I think when you get cases like that, you really run the full, the full spectrum of public emotions. And I came to learn a lot around you know, how a community grees when there's something like that, and
there's phases of community grief. I think the first one is when something like that has happened is just is just absolute shock, and then it kind of goes to sympathy, and then it kind of goes to anger and then
into why you know, why did this happen. There's there's really specific phases of it, and I really felt it through that time, you know, and I copped I copied a bitter criticism about some comments that were that were made, and I think unfairly there were some elements of the media that were happy to kind of jump on and drive an agenda and really didn't recognize the amazing work that had been done by the cops to actually find this individual and holding to account ultimately and stopping from
doing it to anyone else.
I'll talk about that criticism that you got because I'm aware of it, but the actual crime, it was literally a person and this is these are quite often the sad ones, someone in the wrong place at the wrong time with a presator.
And I hate to use the analogy because it just seemed so so insignificant in terms of what happened. But it was a sliding doors moment. You know. He just happened to be standing on you know, pretty much on the corner of Flint Destreet and Swanston Straight outside Young
and Jackson's hotel and Erotics. Was was walking down Swanston Straight and he just happened to see it and you know, she was from what I understand she was, you know, she was in a really happy mood and he just caught, you know, caught, caught a look at her and for whatever reason, decided to start following her. He followed at the length of Swanston straight up towards Carlton to you know, where Melbourne University is and which is where he attacked her.
But he stalked her for a significant period of time and it was all based upon that initial contact and and it's something that's really stuck with me and in that and other cases, how unfair it can be that, you know, because if if he'd looked left instead of right, well you know, it wouldn't it wouldn't have happened. And it's it's just so it's just so tragic. It's just
so tragic. But yeah, it was certainly, you know, trying to find the right way to communicate that to the community because there had already been other cases here in Melbourne and certainly I'm sure elsewhere in Australia as well, where where the public messaging around that had been criticized, around victim blaming, and it's it's really difficult to know what to say, and certainly, you know, the media conference that I did around that is as a whole story
in itself, it's probably the biggest one I did in my career. And bear in mind we'd arrested him at that stage, we knew that there would be someone somebody would ask the question around the safety of you know, women and walking the streets, and how do you how do you answer that? I mean, I would I would love to live in utopia where we don't have to worry about walking the streets. But as the father of
a daughter, I remember that night. We we were sitting around having dinner that night and my son after i'd you know, there had been criticism of the way that you know, and there was only some sections of the media that basically accused me and others have kind of blaming the victims. My son actually said, you know, well
why do they do that? And my daughter was sitting sitting at the table as well, and I used it as one of those you know, whether you call it a teachable moment, you know, in these days, and it was it was actually a moment for him to actually say, well, you know, my daughter at that age was training, she was going to the gym. You know, she was going there at certain times because she didn't want to be at the gym at certain times, because you know, there
was more blocks there. And I knew that she parked her car in a certain place at the gym where there was more light, and you know, because she went there a bit later. And I said to Will, you'll never have to worry about that, you know, And this is reality. And it breaks my heart that we you know, there are sections of us, you know, society and someone who's very dear to me that they have to have these extra considerations in life and extra concerns in life.
But it's sadly, it's the reality of the society that we live in. And you know, people say, well, how can we fix that? Well, you know, we could go to a Singapore style of society, where you know, there are far more consequences for bad actions, far more control I suppose over the individuals. Would I put my hand up for that one percent one percent, But the majority of people wouldn't, wouldn't want that, you know, so we're not going to have that.
And the criticism, my understanding, flowed on it from warning that women should be safe walking home at night, or just be cautious or something as innocuous as that. That sort of.
I recall this because I have about and again this is another story for over a beer one day, but I had about literally about one minute to prepare for that for that media conference. I didn't want to do it, and you know, but it actually came from above that somebody they wanted us to do it. We actually we charged an individual, and we didn't normally do press conferences
after we charge someone. But because there was so much a feeling in the community about it, the thought from the very senior level of our organization was that there needed to be some reassurance messaging put out there. So yeah, I went to our media unit. I had about one minute to prepare. They gave me a whole heap of media lines and I scanned through them and I looked at ninety nine percent of them. I said, I can't
say that because we charged someone. And then they'd given me a version of if you do get that question, well what it should be, and I kind of thought, yeah, and it was really My response was something along the lines of we all have to be aware of our environment and you know, in our personal safety and that was about it, and there have been some other comments.
So I'd done a media interview with the divisional commander for that area earlier in the day, and you know, he sort of copped a bit of a bit of flag for that one too. But I think, you know, in terms of the effort that we were putting into behind the scenes to actually catch this catch this individual, or that we had done it. You know, at that time, we'd actually done it. We'd taken him off the streets and charged him, and it had been an incredible piece
of work to do that. It was unfair. But you know, again I've put a lot of thought into it over the years and thinking about, you know, how a community grieves when something like that happens. And it's right that we should, because we should be outraged if a young woman can't walk home safely and has you know, and it's subjected to an evil act like that, we should be outraged. And so I actually, you know, put a lot of thought into actually just you know, how a
community does grief something like that. And again, I think it's just one of those times where you've got to ride the waves as a sort of senior police member and think, well, this is just kind of part of that grieving process.
Grief.
We all want answers. We all want to know, how do we stop this from happening again. That's that's the most important part of it. How do we stop it from happening again? And you know, I wish we could.
I think you your instinct on that case too, like a crime like that happens, that we got to catch him, or this might occur again.
Was right?
That's the way I would look at the crime, the crime of that nature. Do you know, I think he was nine, nine years old, you know, if he had any any history leading up to it, was there.
Anything really inocuous from memory? There was basically nothing else. I said, you know, that was his offending. The trajectory of you know, his offending just went from basically zero to one. That was the one thing I think with him that made me think if we didn't get him quickly, that he would see this and he would feed off the notoriety or what he would see as the notoriety and and look to do it again. And as we all know, over time, there's been serial killers who have
gone on and done that. Unfortunately, they don't happen as much. And I'm touching Wood really seriously here again now. And I think a lot of that is to do with, you know, a lot of the technology and a lot of the accountability in society. I think I think it's a lot harder for someone like that, but you've got to get on to him quick.
Yeah, definitely. And I think investigative practices have approved and involved evolved, and that's why, Yeah, there's less of the serial predators. And we're also have a bit more of an understanding like serial killing identified as serial killers that we're looking for that only came out around in the seventies when we started talking and talking and talking about that.
And I think the way that we communicate between the different law enforcement agencies and understanding the nature nature of the crime we're reducing it. A crime like that adds another layer of pressure, doesn't it. When the team that's investigating it, And as you said, you're sitting as the boss of homicide at the time and there's a team working under I'm at pains to explain anytime we're talking about I did this or that. It's always a team environment.
You are working working in the team, but the team heading up that investigation would have felt the pressure.
Absolutely, and I think your job as the boss there is to is to shield them as much as you possibly can. And I always felt that that was my most significant role in those times when you did get an investigation like that, was to actually be the buffer and let them do their work, which is we both
know they do really well, I mean ultimately. And there was a decision that we had to make on that one, and we had to make it pretty quickly, and because we did, we got a photograph and we weren't one hundred percent sure at the time that it was the person we were looking for, but certainly it was someone who who we could say it was a significant person of interest. And I remember looking at the time, it was like quarter to sixth and I thought, we we've got to get.
This on the evening meet news.
And you know, as you know, putting a photograph on, you know, potentially the national news when you're not one hundred percent sure comes with it comes with risk. So we had to be really careful around our wording as well, you know that this was a person of interest, and and again this was it was probably one of those where having good contacts in the media came to the four as well that we could make some quick phone calls and you know, tell them, look, this is you know,
we've got this is hot news. You basically hold the front page and we got it on We got it on the news. It was brought to his attention. From my recollection is that people known to him were ringing him saying, all your photos on the news. And he turned himself into to a local police station and and our people shot out there straight away and spoke to him and yeah, and he never saw the light of
day again, thankfully. So you know, those decisions that you have to make on the fly sometimes which come with an element of risk, and you kind of have to, you know, make that assessment, well is it worth it?
And you know, in that one it definitely was. But the work that had gone into getting that photograph of him during the day, involving viewing of multiple CCCTV, you know that that to me is the stuff that I must respect by of the people that actually sorted through all that and actually got that photograph and.
The position I find it makes you you're proud as a cop being involved in that type of stuff where you see a team of crimes happen like that and you watch it work like a well oiled machine, and everyone's bringing their skill set to the investigation, and you just see how much progress can be made in twenty
four hours. They just can absolutely get through it when you've got dedicated, highly skilled people working on the case, and they're the type of things that break the cases wide open, aren't they?
Definitely? And that dedication, I mean it's, you know again, I used to think it's a bit like conducting an orchestra. Sometimes you've just you just And I always saw my role predominantly as being, as I say, looking after them and giving them the tools. I often used to say, I work for you, not you work for me. You know, That's the way I want you to look at it. I'm here to you know, I'm here to work for you, to give you the tools and the and the freedom to do the job that I know you can do.
And and time and time again, they just, you know, they just amaze you the work that they do.
Step up and I think, yeah, having a boss, like by the time you've got there, you've got that experience, you know what investigators, you know how to support them you'd probably even get them a whiteboard or something like that.
Would you whiteboards have gone out of fashion a life, I think, are electronic whiteboards now unfortunately?
Yeah, but what about the intros? We used to fight over the intros. It would be punch homicide that we want those.
What about a teleidex? You remember the old the things that we used to find about. But yeah, we're a little bit more technically advanced now, not to say that they could do with a lot more. And there's you know, there's a lot of a lot of technical innovations that are coming in now, which was stuff that we were starting to look at when I left it. Yeah, you know, it's just amazing with AI now and machine learning.
And well yeah AI. That's actually if I was speaking to Graham simpondor for about that that very thing, because it's an area that he's into now after he's got out of the police and how that can change investigations and the use of that. But that's a story for another time. Another case I want to talk about is the twenty seventeen Flinders Street the vehicle attack. Nine people injured. I think one of those people died. Tell us about that because that's that's it's a type of crime that
scares me, where one person acts out alone. You know, they used to be called lone wolves, and now I think that type of crime is a loan actor. Can you describe that that situation to us and what your involvement in that matter was.
Well, I was, I was. I think it was on call that night and I remember it because it was my youngest son. It was his graduation night from from primary school and happened. I was at the school primary fate and you know, as you know, you start getting phone calls, your phone's going off, and you're trying to concentrate on what you're there for.
You look like a dickhead in the school assembly when you're walking out to take facals.
And you know, saw these significant nights in your life and things like that happen and you kind of you know, you get a little bit of a report and then you think, we'll see how it develops, and and then you start to realize this is big. Well, I was lucky that night because Tim Day, who at that stagement, charged a homicide and I think I was looking after
missing persons. Tim was still around and I told him where I was, and so he said, well, look well, you know, I'll look after it till till midnight or whatever, till whatever time you can get there, and went in there and worked all through the night. And you know, of course we had the This was four days out from Christmas in Melbourne, right in the center of the CB day. The political pressure on it was an ormous, you know, the pressure from the top of the organization
as well. And bear in mind that the individual had been arrested very bravely by an off GDY police member who jumped into the car after this individual had mowed through the pedestrian crossing. So an off GDY member who's just on his way home, I think from memory, I know, you think he was going to meet up with his daughter to do some Christmas shopping and he jumped in that car, not knowing if there was a secondary device
or what was going on. And of course at that time we knew that that premise wasn't out of the question. So I really brave act by that actually got you know, arrested this guy, stopped him from doing, you know, causing any further harm.
He was literally just driving through crowds of people.
Yeah, he driven around the CBD for quite a while, so we'd actually been able to map him driving around the CBD, and I think you've just try and find the right location and the right the right time, and
you know, sadly he down Flinda Street. There's a there's a major pedestrian crossing is actually I think it's three crossings have merged together at Elizabeth Street and Flindas Street just outside of Flinders Street station, right on a peak hour as well, So it was it was a busy crossing and of course at that time of year, a lot of you know, people in the CBD shopping, a lot of tourists there as well, and so it was it was chaos and it was one of those things
where you know, you have enormous pride that the organization turns chaos into order fairly quickly. And then we were left with the organizer, you know, with the investigation of that, and you know, there was a big question around, you know, was a terrorism was it not terrorism? Ultimately it was deemed not to be terrorist attack. The individual you know, did have significant mental health issues, but you know, notwithstanding that, you know, he was convicted ultimately, and it could have
been an awful lot worse. But you know, one one really inspirational Australian lost his life in that as a fellow in his eighties. I think from from memory and you know, you think, you know you've lived lived a life that long and then you know, to be taken from your loved ones in such a way four days out from Christmas. But you know, the really fortunate part
of it was that there wasn't more. But you know, having said that, we tend to any sort of remember things in terms of fatalities, but there are still people that will be living with life changing injuries from that incident.
As well well. I think with the numbers of people, and there would have been significant injuries, but it was we're very much in this environment to this day, but there was a height and alertness about those type of things, type of things happening, and the natural inclination would have
been is a terrorists related. But it's a problem I think policing of facing in this day and age those laan actors, and they are hard to predict because you've virtually got to predict it before these type of crimes happen, and.
As we know it, they escalate very quickly as well. Yeah, they are so difficult to mitigate and to prevent.
So having a crime like that happened, how did the impact on you personally? Like lead up to Christmas, your son's graduation, exciting times and then you look at the world and get nine named people by the action of a person with mental health? Did it? Did it? Do you carry that?
I think you you know, My view is I think you carry all of these. I think every investigation that you're part of leaves leaves some impression on you. The other side of it is, you know that you just put your head down. I mean, and as the as a senior investigating officer and something like that, you're pretty busy dealing you know, you're dealing with a political level,
You're dealing with the senior level of the organization. You know, we're dealing across agencies, with with the FEDS, with counter terrorism agencies across Australia and even internationally as well, where you know, suddenly you you really are in the spotlight
that way. So yeah, I think while it's well, it's happening, you kind of just put your head down, and you know a lot of it is you're you're supporting your people that was the task force, and you know, all the all the challenges that you have with the task force or a strike force. We talked about before, you know, getting people, keeping people, getting resources. That all exists too. So yeah, you kind of just you know, you're in
the maelstrom. I think of just just keeping the whole thing working and then but you do have but you do have your moments where you kind of sit down and go, you know, what is going on in the world.
You know, Yeah, this is the life of the homicide detective. And it's funny. Your reference are not funny, but your reference it to your son's graduation. I know, with the Linked Cafe siege, I ran ran the crime scene that came at such an inconvenient time because my son had been overseas. I hadn't seen him for a long time and he was staying at my place. And it's basically that happened I didn't see in the lead up to Christmas. And you sort of carry those things, but I think
you described it well. You just sort of put your head down. This is what you do, and you do your work and you haven't really got time to reflect.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and that's been that's been the case with most investigations, certainly you know, reactive ones like that. And you know we'd had the Burk Street incident here in Melbourne as well, which you know that was a massive investigation went on for went on for a long
period of time. And so even after that that was the shooting, No, that was another that was another vehicle you know, a vehicle borne incident where a car was driven down to pedestrian that's right pedestrian area of Burk Street in Melbourne. So you know, we unfortunately we'd had a lot of history in that kind of thing as well, but you know, from from that comes experience as well, and you know how to deal with these things too.
So and we talk about it from an investigator's point of view, from the detectives point of view, but the shout out to the police of the first on the scene of these type of things, a young uniform police are dealing with the chaos when it's just happened, the first responders to to that the ambo is anyone that
gets involved in it. It's yeah, we look at it from the investigator point of view and invariably in a position like you are or I was, you're a little bit wiser, you're a little bit more experienced, and you've got kids that have just joined the cops, like you talked about yourself, naive nine erene year old Over in the UK, they're dealing with this type of thing as well.
Yeah, you know, And another thing that I tell you I always take from these incidents as well as is, you know, even though you're looking at the worst in society, you very often see the best in society as well as these things, people who actually you know, jump into actually try and prevent something or to assist after the
fact as well. So I think that's always been really important for me to actually try and you know, look look at when you when you're seeing the absolute worst in society, Well, you know, how did how did how did the rest of society, normal society? How did that? How did they react in that situation? And invariably it's it's very well, you know.
Yeah, well it's nourishing to look at things in the positive like that. And I always drew a lot of a lot of strength from victims the way the families have murdered victims in homicides, the strength and the resilience that they showed to get through, and quite often I'd look at them and think, well, I shouldn't wins just because I've had the work over the weekend with what you're going through, and that puts it in perspective.
Too, doesn't I've never had I can't ever recall a victim of a homicide ever feeling like they've been looked after by the system or the courts. In all my time, I can't remember when he's walked away thinking, yeah, I feel like I've had justice.
Well, as you know, you don't. They don't feel like there is no justice. They're not going to get closure. There's no justice. You can't use those words. They've lost their loved one and there's a long, long journey. But I'm just amazed that they can carry on because sometimes I've seen the people that I'm thinking, if I was in their situation, I don't know if I can carry on.
No, I agree with you, And you know, I think that's been something that's you know, to years, that word nourished the years. I think that's something that's nourished me over the course as well. To see the strength and you know, the humility and the humanity that some of those people have had to you know, even when they are faced with you know, with a system that doesn't really look after them.
No, what are you doing with yourself now?
Well, I unfortunately through the work that I did with Underbelly back in the day, and you know, and I've kept a lot of those contacts. So I'm still trying to do a little bit of work in film and TV now just to build build a bit of consultancy there and try and bring some true crime stories or some some you know, as I say, try to try to bring some of those true crime stories where truth is stranger than fiction to to you know, to the table.
So that's that's pretty much. It just a couple of other things and you're just enjoying a bit of time away from it and walking the dog and going to the gym.
Yeah, those little things that you took for granted. You made reference in part one to the TV series The Wire when they're setting up there the Strikeforce that that's one of my favorite cop shows. In The Wire. I just loved they caught the grittiness of it and the strange things that happened in policing.
Well, can I just say, because this is and I've never and I don't know if you've had any dealings with the author of the books. I think he's still around. He was in Baltimore, and my understanding was he was a sort of crime reporter on the on the you know, on the newspaper there, so obviously had a lot of contacts with the cops. And I sort of watched cop
shows and this is one thing I'll take them. And I'm trying now, and I try and think about you know, you see these scenes and think, well, could that have happened? And there's one scene in the Wire, and I'd love to know there's one scene in the Wire where one of the one of the members dies and so, and it introduces this tradition that they have in Baltimore where the member the night before the funeral, gets taken to
a bar. They in full uniform. They lay them on a on a pool table and they all stand around drinking whiskey and singing songs by the Pogues. You know, So maybe the Poges might have been a stretch, but I often thought and then, you know, so they have this, so they invite they invite the deceased colleague for one last drink and it's a brilliant scene, very moving scene too.
And then at the end of the night they all go, you know, the undertake comes back in takes you know, takes the deceased pack to the to the chapel of rest and they all go on their own way. And I've often thought, you know, is there some truth in that story? You know, because it's just when you've been around coppering long enough, you know, strange things.
Well, I'm not shocked. You're not shocked, you because I.
Actually think I reckon there's a better truth in that some way, and they and as they do, they kind of stretch it, but I reckon there's a bit of truth in that. But it's such a brilliant scene too.
Yeah. No, it was a great, great series. I enjoyed a great deal. Finish off the questions I always ask people that have had long and impressive careers like yourself in the police, would you recommend policing to people as a career, And if so, what would you say the attractions to a career in policing.
Yeah, look, I would, you know, I think it's harder and coppers we always reckon it was harder for us back in the day. But I often thought, and I actually had the privilege just towards the end of my career to go out and work in regional operations in a busy inner city area around Paran, and some killed here. And I learned that the policing is most definitely harder now than it was in my day because the accountability.
You know, everyone's got a camera in the pocket. You know, there is nothing that the cops can't even do that that isn't film somewhere, and everything is in my view, is harder and more dangerous. I think too, we're dealing with I don't know any other occupation where people go to work regularly thinking someone's going to try and kill me today. There's a high possibility someone's going to try and kill me today. I mean, I can't think of
another occupation. Yeah, there's other occupations where it's dangerous, but where people just for the nature of what they do, you represent, we'll try and we'll try and kill them, you know, or hurt them so and that that wasn't the case in when I was starting off, and probably the same with you, and I think that's changed a lot recently, so I do have the utmost respect. Having said that that we do train our people and and ecquit them a lot better than we ever have too.
So I mean, all those risks are very real, but they are very well trying and very well equipped. So I often think, and I know I spoke to you about this. You know, if my son, you know, he's still UNI, but if he came to me, and I
don't think he's likely he will. Eve he came to me and said he wanted to join the cops, I'd go, well, yeah, okay, yeah, that's good, and I'd tell him what, you know, tell him what the risk would, what the downfalls were, but I'd also tell him that it's an amazing career where he'll meet the best mates he's ever you know, he's ever had in life, and he will see, as we say, you know, a side of life that you'll never see anywhere else, and it will teach you some, you know,
amazing life skills. Whether or not i'd suggest, and what I say to a lot of people is, you know, maybe just think about doing it for five years, for thirty years, you know, because if you do it for five years, it'll give you an amazing set of life skills and skills that are really transferable into other industries. So I kind of think that's what I would do. I certainly I would never talk anyone out of it because I just feel incredibly fortunate that, you know, I've
had a good career. I've enjoyed the vast majority of it, and I think it's a really really worthwhile occupation.
Yeah, there's certainly rewards that come from it. There's the pressure, and you look like you've come out relatively sane, which is always good. There's no twitches or anything I could pick up at this stage.
But no, well I think so. And you know, that was what was important to me as well, because I can't in knew and this is what you know, we discussed the other day when you know, you know, and it's a bit like the footy player wake up and just think, you know, just there's too many aches and pains. I want to do it anymore. And that was where it came to with me, And I was really adamant
that I wanted to leave on good terms. And you know, because we've all seen, you know, too many of our colleagues who leave on bad terms and hate the job and hate everybody in it. And I never wanted to get to that stage because you know, I don't feel that. I feel incredibly privileged and so yeah, you know, I've got no ill feeling towards towards any of it at all.
Well that's good, yea that and we all want to leave on good terms. I left with a criminal charge, which I suppose is not the best of terms, but I look back and I still love that every day in the cops, and yeah, it's a robust nature of policing and I still look back and think, yeah, it was great.
There's a lot of things in my I mean, and I never, you know, thankfully never had to face anything like that. But there's a lot of part of my career as well where you do go you know, like as you know, you get complaints or whatever, and you know, and they're really kicking in the guts and the job can be really difficult at times and really challenging, but I think the benefits far outweigh the negatives.
Yeah, well that's a good way to finish, Andrew, and I just want to thank you for your service to the community both in the UK and Victoria and the role model that you were because I think it's important good good people people learned. I learned from good people. I'd like to think I passed some of those skills on. I can see in the way that you conduct yourself you would have been passing those skills on that you picked up. And it's a shame we didn't work together.
I like the way that you go about your business, and I think we could have got some backuts.
Yeah, absolutely right, Well we should still do it. Maybe get a TV show together. You know what was it called the one in the UK they I'll detect is getting all right?
Okay, we can't come out come out of the retirement. Well look, thanks very much, all the best for the future and yeah, stay in touch. Thanks cheers.
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