The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've recently retired Detective Chief Inspector Carolin O. Hair. I've got notes here, Carolyn, I'm almost going to give up the notes, so I was going to keep you on track. No, you don't
have to be sorry, that's just so so funny. Some of the stories and serious, of course, Yeah, but yeah, the life and times of a police officer. No wonder you stayed in there so long. Why would you leave a job You get to do it like that, You get to do all this and they pay you for it exactly. And you found loving in the job too. Just the fact that you founded a siege.
What can I say? It's novel.
It was a long, cold.
Night, the moon was bright.
Yeah, and there he was standing in his black overalls. Okay, enough, I'll get us both in the trouble. Close personal protection, dignitary protection. People don't know a lot about it because you see the people in the background. I always Jake when I was doing it on the blake that walks around in the dark suit with the sunglasses. I'm talking into your sleeve type situation. But it's a very important role, and it's a very complex role, isn't it.
It certainly is.
What was your involvement in that line of pleasing?
Okay? So when I first went to Special Branch, we did close personal protection for internationally protected people and also Australian high office holders, so prime Minister, governor, General, premiers, all that sort of stuff. I looked after Nick Griner, I looked after the Queen, Princess Diana, all of that sort of stuff. In the eighties, I was there at the Special Branch during the Bison tanery, so a lot
of international dignitaries came out. So I had that experience, and then after the Royal Commission, I went back to counter terrorism policing and ran I was the operations manager and leading up to the Olympics, so I ran sort of investigations and intelligence and dignitary protection, but dignitary protection for the Olympics. Prior to that, ANDREWS. Lattery was in
charge of DIGPRO. But when I became the operations manager, and then three weeks before the Olympics, I was thrown in as the commander for Dignitary Protection Operations of the command under Operations, so I had two hundred and forty police and you know, one hundred and fifty cars, ten of which were armored. BMW's had forty four of those police were AFP. We had nowhere to put the cars,
nowhere to put the police. So they gave us a Regent Street police station, which I think might have been condemned, can't remember. We didn't even have seats for people to sit on. We had no So to work it all out, I sat down with Andrew's Slattery and just worked out a plan of attacks, said to all the cops go away for two days, don't destroy the cars.
I remember that.
Do you remember that I was six months pregnant at the time, so yeah, it was. It was a tough gig being so pregnant. And also just you know, a lot of the police had to do some of the more boring things, not running around with Chelsea Clinton or who did you look after it?
I looked after the Bulgarian president until one of the Bulgarian athletes tested positive in the drugs or weightlifters. Then he left, and then looked after a Turkey group, which was quite interesting.
Yeah.
I got to see the opening ceremony, the closing ceremony, and front row seats in all the sports. I loved it. But the chaos and I just brought back so many memories when you said everything was happening, we're fighting over cars, like the logistics in homicide operations. I've organized big operations. You had seventy hundred police involved. That was chaos. It was chaos and no one knew how it was going to run, and it ran so smoothly.
Yeah, it did. I remember Princess Anne was what happened for the opening ceremony that organized buses for the dignitaries to actually go on the buses together so there wouldn't be a whole heap of motikaiates. Well, everybody decided, apart from Princess and God love her, that they would still go in their own. Motiicaid, I'm not getting on a
bus important for that. So Donna Adney was actually looking after Princess and and she rang and said, she's the only one on the bus, right okay, I said, get her off the bus, put her in the back of a higher patrol car. We'll get a highway car down there and we will green light her out to be open e ceremony. Because she's part of the Olympic Committee, International Olympic Committee, it can't start without her. She was probably the most important to be there. So anyway they
did that. Donna got off the bus. They're getting the higher patrol car, blue lighter all the way to Homebush. And she absolutely loved it. She had the time of her life. She really, you know, so some people were very high maintenance, but I look at people like her and she was, you know, really down to earth and very just no nonsense, get on with it. And quite happy to get into the back of a police car and be taken out. And the HIGHA guys, you know,
they were pretty tough. They thought it was pretty exciting too.
Like so many experiences I found and generally found that the heads of state were fine to deal with, but you had the people around them that would cause the cause the problems. And I remember with the Bulgarian president, He's had of security who was about six foot ten, and there was me and an AFP guy that I hadn't met before. So we're working under pressure and we'd only met the two days. You gave us the car and we got to know each other. I don't know
where we went around and we checked sites. That's right, we go down the Bondai bitch and see what happens down there. But the head of security has come up and in the broken English, very serious voice, and who is looking after my president? And I'll go, I am, and seriously the disdain on his face. He just looked me up and down from hip to tamin. He's a six foot six foot eight, six foot ten, just this huge, bulking human boom. You are, yes, I am, And they
they tested me. They left it because part of the thing, and you'd know that it's coordinating. It's about not just protecting their physical safety, but it said they're dignity. That's that's the word I was looking for and making it convenience. So when they come out of their room, the lift is there waiting for them, the cars out the front and all these things. You've got all these different heads of state, so we're all fighting each other to get
things happening. And the one thing I learned on the course that holds you random. I'll talk talk about that. Yeah, I owe him big time, and not in a good way. But the one thing that was drummed into me, don't if you're the principal officer looking after the head of state, stay with them wherever you go, stay with them. I'm coordinating the lifts. This is in the early stages, and I don't know miss the lifts or whatever. He's gone down,
The president's gone down. He's in the car and they've just driven off, and I'm standing there in my suit and thinking the main street of Sydney. I'm thinking. The one thing that was drummed into me, don't lose sight.
Don't lose sight of your person. And I thought, okay, just put Pride in the back and I sprinted down, sprinted down the road, chasing after this car, called them about a kilometer down the raid, jumped in the car and they've looked at me and laughed, and it was almost like a test, going all right, you're okay, you're okay now. But the course, I've got to say, the three week course we did out that Holsworthy Army base. And this is how Halty and I love him but hate him in equal parts.
I think everyone does.
He set me up big time. And I caught up with him a couple of years ago and he was still laughing about it. A lot of it. We do a lot of shooting and all the things that you do for upskilling, and also a bit of physical stuff. And there was a bloat there in the army that was just this. He looked like he'd been carved out the stone. And he was a boxer, a top boxer, so he was putting us all through rounds with him.
You'd step in and I did a bit of boxing and I thought I can look after myself, and I'm watching how the other people on the course are going through when they're stepping in stepping with him, and I'm thinking this is this is easy step in their touch gloves, and then he proceeded to beat the ship out of it, and I'm thinking this is getting real. So it's started
started to turn. It turn into a fight, and I'm fighting as best I can to save myself and getting a bit cut up and smashed and all that, and I'm thinking, what the fuck, what's this bloke up? Because I've watched six flakes going before me and it was just all friendly, just a bit of play play fighting. And when I get out, I'm wiping the blood off my nose or whatever. And Holt he's having a bit of a snicker and I've gone, what's so funny? Said,
I don't know what set that bloke off. He's got an idea, And Holdy Holty had told the bloke, this army bloke, I'd never met, this, this tough dude that I was seeing there watching and I reckon I could take him, Thank you, Halty, And yeah, I thought it
was a very very good, very good get. But with the Olympics and you said you signed the overtime form, the hours that we were working were chaotic too, but it was something that was unprecedented, and a lot of people had to step up, and I was proud of the way a round sort of stepped up individually.
Oh they really did. And even like in the command center that we had set up at Regent Street, so I had roster guys who were working basically twenty four to seven. God love them radio operators. None of them wanted to be in there, and I rotated some of them through so that they got a chance to actually get out of there and experience what was going on. But I think I had a budget overtime of one
and a half mil. And after about six days in I said to the roster guys, you know, it was like eleven PM or something, and I thought, I wonder how much I've signed. I said, look, mate, can you do a quick calculation for it? They said yeah, yeah, yeah, they were working twenty four to seven, and they said we'll have it for you tomorrow morning. So I went in the next morning at six am or whatever, and they said, you're only up to like seven fifty or eight hundred whatever it was.
And I must admit, I've probably saved you a bit of money because I was having so much fun sometimes I didn't even put in the other plaform. So I remember the cars. I remember sleeping in the car at one stage, because you're at the whim of where this person wanted to go. And if that person felt like I'm going to hang out all night, you're out all night and there was nothing you could do about it, and you're back there the next morning. But yeah, it was a fascinating experience.
And there were seventy one people that we looked after, internationally protected people, Henry Kissinger, Chelsea Clinton, you know, a prince from Saudi, like the breadth of people, kings, queens, whatever, heads of state. It was just really unbelievable. And for our people to actually look after those people and meet those people, have those opportunities was really great.
It was fantastic. And you're meeting people that you've heard about their reputation and you're meeting them, and most of them they treat you quite well. It wasn't so that you weren't to just get out of my way. I remember sitting in a restaurant having dinner with a princess from a particular country, and it was like she was on a Friday night out. She just wanted to go out and party. Absolutely, but you've got to do it and you've got to keep your wits about you and
make sure. But everyone that worked on it had just fond memories of it that were such such an experience, and there was a real positive vibe about the whole thing, wasn't it. The weather was great. It just was great to be part of.
Yeah. And I think if people were out and about it was to do with the Olympics.
You know.
I had one constable who I worked with a lot, and last year he came up to me and apologized about the Olympics because he was working at the airport and he knows who he is and he didn't want to be working there. He wanted to be That was yeah. But at the airport, you facilitated all of them coming in, so you got to meet everybody. And he said, oh, do you want to be working at the airport? I said, well, look, I'll tell you what. How would you like to work in the car park at home Bush because I can
organize that. I'm six months pregnant, mate, I'm not in the mood, so I like it or lump it. You can be out there or anyway. So and he came up to me last year just before I retired. He said, I'm really sorry. I said, sorry for what he said, you know, being.
I do understand it, like I was fortunate because I went out every day, didn't have a day in and got to see front row seats watching all the sport, and I just couldn't believe it and think this is I'm glad that I joined the police.
Absolutely. I don't know if you had one of the cars that had the number plates special number plates though were Olie. They were all Olympic number plates. So my police car that I had, you know, I come in the morning and that afternoon when I or that night when I was going home, the plates are be gone. So I came in every day and there was a constable and I said, look, the plates have been knocked off.
Can you report them stolen? Happened about seven times anyway, On the last day I came in and I said, oh, the plates have been stolen. He said, oh, look about that. Just want to let you know that, you know, I reported the plate, Stolin, I accidentally reported the car. Stolin said, so I've been driving a stolen car? Is that? Is that what you're telling me? And he said, well yeah, but he said, but who's going to pull you over?
Maybeck Rick might have pulled you over high risk of defender.
Oh no, And we actually had one car missing. At the end of it all, we had all the one hundred and fifty cars and like two weeks after the Ompic.
Carol and I deny that allegation. I bought the car back.
It was an AFP guy row you up, said mate, where's the car? Oh you want the car? Yes, doesn't actually belong to you.
Bring it. It's worth worth a try.
I know. I was about to report it Stolin. I said, if we don't get it back to that because we couldn't figure out where it was, like one hundred and fifty cars or whatever. Yeah, so he reluctantly.
I had so much fun. I signed up for the Para Olympics, but then homicide squad worked out I wasn't wasn't there, and they run They pulled me away from that. I didn't want to leave. I was enjoying myself. But all the different nationalities they had different and this was the exciting thing about it. Depending on who you were working for or looking after, there was different ways you had to approach it, and the Bulgarians could not understand, for the life of life of them, you're a policeman.
Why we have to stop because you know we're doing the bomb checks and all that. But can't you just say you're a policeman and they let you through. They couldn't comprehend that. And I looked after some Saudi princes on a night. That was an interesting experie. Yeah, yeah, you can imagine and everything you're imagining, Yeah, was going down. But full credit to you, Like all jokes aside, like for an operation that was major, did they give you
much preparation before then? Like I know it was a long time in the place.
Yeah, not for that particular role. I thought I would be involved in investigations and intelligence for the Olympics, but my commanders at the time said, no, you're going to be running the You'll be the operations commander for dignitary Protection. And I was very pregnant. And it's funny because at that time Rick actually was successful in getting a deployment to East Tmoor. Yeah, so he was leaving in two months and I was command posted and I was talking
to the team about it. Gary Merriweather was there Mick Watkins, and I said, I don't know what I'm going to What am I to do with Rick's away when I have the baby? You know, I was so stupid. I was such an idiot. I had no idea what happens when you have a baby. And Gary me Merriweather said to me, you know what case you said, I'll go with you. I said, what he said, Well, my wife's had three kids, it's no big drama. I'll go with you. I said, all due respect, you know, but seriously so.
But nice of him, but the gesture was nice. But yeah, okay, well, congratulations on that, because that was from what I saw in my police career. It was one of the largest operations I've seen police do, and I was proud of the way it came off. Everyone had a good time. We didn't lose anyone. I almost lost a police car.
If that's the worst that happens. Hey, we're doing.
Okay, okay, let's stop us reminiscing about the times at the Sydney Olympics prosecuting police prosecuting. I just throw this up as a conversation starter that I feel sorry for police, current police that they don't get the court experience we used to get when we first went in and a week wouldn't go by when I was a young detective, when I wasn't in the witness box being beat up, and it gives you the confidence. I never feel comfortable
when I'm about to give evidence. It's always a nervous and you should feel nervous because the stakes are pretty high. But you got tall and you got to cut your teeth in the local court and all that. What's your your take on the way police give evidence in the witness box? You see some very good plaice give evidence and you see others that they're out of their depth.
Yeah, and you know what, I think, it's really interesting. When I joined in nineteen eighty one, there was still the situation where you where the probationary constable who locked up somebody for whatever it was, read the facts, would give the facts from the witness box. Okay, yeah, so
you would go and they'd say right this. It was kind of like, you know, your first kind of blooding is to go in and give the So you got used to actually sitting in the witness box and just even if you're reading the facts, it's just sitting in that environment where everybody's looking at you, you know, expecting something.
And I think that that would be a really great thing for just young police now to be able to just go and get exposure, to get exposure and all that sort of stuff and just without any pressure, just you know, because the young when they start, like I was, you know, just nineteen and gosh, I'd never been a court before in my life.
It was terrifying the first time.
Absolutely, not just the first time like most times talking. Yeah, it was terrifying. And I think if we did that, you know, I know, look, it's not easy, and time is poor and all that sort of stuff, But I just think preparation. And you know, as a prosecutor, you'd have people coming in at ten o'clock as you're standing at the bar table giving you this statement and that's the first you've ever seen of it. You're calling your first witness and you haven't seen the brief, so that
sort of stuff. But look, I understand it is hard, you know, the time poor and all the rest of it, but you know, you've got to be prepared if you want to be professional, do your homework and preparation.
You've just said that the preparation was the key. If you didn't prepare, And that's why I think being nervous or petrified or whatever we want to call it before you get in there, you've got to have that. You've got to have that adrenaline going through, so you do the work beforehand. And on the very rare occasions where I haven't been prepared, I've been shown up to be
lacking in the witness box. And preparing is understanding the brief, getting it in your head so under pressure you can answer the questions.
And yeah, well the other thing is too that in the old days we actually had to remember our evidence, so especially at district court or Supreme court, and you get six pages into your evidence and then the prosecutor, I'll just stop you there, and you're like, don't stop me because and then there's that right now, you know, from whatever, and just like, okay, what a minute, I've got to go right back to the beginning.
Now. It seems it seems ludicrous, doesn't it, But that was And I can still remember statements from thirty years ago that it seemed to be every Sunday was spent just going over it. And I'd collocated, I said, he said and colocated with highlighted pens. Learn it verbatim verbatim, and you get in the witness box and you might have, as you said, six pages even more of conversation and
details that you had to hit word for word. Otherwise the defense was going to exploit, exploit it absolutely, And didn't you feel so good after you finished it?
Absolutely? Like cross examination is nothing after that. But I think it was a bit of a shock for the jury for police to get in and give this dire tribe of evidence and they'd be thinking, how did they remember? You know, you could see the jury thinking wow, like.
It was crazy. It was theater. You were there performing and you sit there with confidence, and you rattle off six pages verb batim of conversation and then defense will take you back when they said you saw it. Did they actually say you saw it? Or they thought they saw it, and they'd try to confuse you. But I suppose because you learnt it that way, you could then argue it back because when they started to allow us
to read, and that was a big thing. If you got the court and the defense of agreed to let you read your statement.
Oh thank goodness.
But then you got a little bit more relaxed about it, and you didn't learn the statement as much as you did, so that sort of I had to wind myself back and just make sure you get it into your head all the information that you needed. Did you enjoy prosecuting.
Yeah, I loved prosecuting. It was very different to being in plane close because every day was something different. So you didn't have matters that went over you know, you didn't have investigations that went for days, months, weeks, years. Everything was fresh every single day, well most of the time unless you had a part her. But I really loved prosecuting. It was great. I worked with great people, Like I said, Party Parcel, Dave Parcel and Steve McGrath.
Yeah, they were around for a long time. Col Kennedy, cole he was.
Cold Kennedy, Yeah, absolutely, and they were just champions and just and some of them have gone on to be magistrates. Dom McClellan we did law together, you know. Yeah, it was great. It was a great learning ground. And the only thing about prosecutor is I love to argue. They love to argue. Oh why don't you arguing in the office, because I can't be bothered like argue about whether sun comes up in the east of the West.
I don't care Les Crawford. Did you ever work with Les Crawford.
No, I didn't, but I've heard about it.
Okay. Le's used to terrorize me in my early days as a young detective. I'd walk into the prosecutor's office and they're always busy, and that's I honestly don't know how you get your head around all those different briefs, Like there's a queue outside the office, we're at court that I'd always bring my brief in. Lesard look at it, and on occasions he'd throw it on the floor and go, yeah, yeah, I'll do my best to like it was a good brief. Find out it was a good brief. But that was
that was just Les's way. But I love liked having hair prosecuting because he knew how to argue when he's good on his feet and the Yeah, so many skills that a good prosecutor has to have.
Yeah, and just learning from the best, watching them and just you know, they were so confident and all that sort of stuff. And yeah, I remember Steve McGraw was calling the list once at Blacktown, which was you know, like you know Eighten inches high and there was a plea matter and I couldn't find the brief in all the papers, like and so at monty two, I said, oh, Steve, this person wants to plead and like, I can't find the papers. And he went through all the papers in
the whole office couldn't find it. And then he came over and he went through everything that I had and it was in there. And you know what, he didn't get up me. He didn't call me for I just felt so embarrassed that he'd been through everything. But he was such a nice guy and he just you know, he said, don't worry about it. It's all good, you know, like just really good people.
The people like that make a difference, don't ye, Yeah, act of kindness? Did you when you were prosecuting? Did you ever find yourself? Because sometimes I sit there in court and you know, I'll be critical of the prosecutors or the defense, so why don't they go down this pathway? But when you're standing on your feet and sometimes you just, yeah, your mind goes blank. Yes, did you ever have any moments like that? Whek?
Unfortunately? Where am I I had one? Once? The magistrate a black town trying to think of his name. He was such a lovely man. And I was cross examining and I was just going around in circles. Honestly, it was just crap. And he said, misso hair, I thought, here it comes. So is this cross examination going anywhere? I said, I don't think so. He said, then sit down, and I said, And he said to me afterwards, he said, I can't believe you just sat down. I said, Well, it wasn't going anywhere.
Sometimes the best.
He said, you know, it's just you know, I did my best, and obviously that wasn't real good.
So again, you put yourself in pressure positions like prosecuting, pressure negotias. Did it take a toll on you? Or is it I see the laugh of it comes through. Did you just try to look at the bright side of things? Yeah.
Look, I'll tell you what. There were a lot of pressure things, but I think it was rewarding as well. At the end of it, like you do, oh you know, I'll be like, oh my god, I'm going to do this matter d And then you know, ask people who knew better than me what to do and all that sort of stuff. And I think just having that camaraderie with you know, with your mates and all that sort of stuff and throwing it around and everything. Yeah. Look, definitely I was anxiety ridden lots of times. But I
think you just get on with it. I don't know, yeah, I don't know.
Well, I think it keeps you stimulated if you're challenging yourself and exactly the roles that you've done was a challenge for you each time. But yeah, it's a sort of career path that you've taken. You're always putting yourself out there and pressure pressure points.
Yeah, and I've enjoyed that. You know, it has been stressful, but I have enjoyed it too, you know, when it's when it's all worked out.
Well, of course, well lucky you were in the gachet before that, like prosecuting, or you might have met Rick and you might have been with a solicitor.
Instead of that's exactly what a good thought.
Yeah.
Well, but you know what's really funny too, is when I started prosecuting, it's a totally different cross examining and interviewing, completely opposite, really it was. It was a really different.
Mindset, how so exposed, Well, when you're.
You're asking open questions as an investigator, whereas as a prosecutor, you're asking more closed questions.
Okay, you're putting.
Something to somebody, you did that. You'd never do that as an investigator, Yeah, you'd let them tell the story, whereas as a prosecutor, you're when you're cross examining, you're zero yeah. Zero. So that was really interesting. Actually, I remember thinking that at the time, why do we have open questions for investigator? And you know, obviously because of the law.
But your academic studies they would have really come into help in that. I think, like criminology and law, you really would have been looking at things deeply.
Yeah. Absolutely. And I remember doing criminology and I did criminal law, and the first thing they said, right, we're going to learn defenses defenses to it. And I thought, well, what about the proofs, Like, as police, that's the first thing that's dumped into you. What are the proofs of last week? What are the proofs of murder? What? I said, but what about the proofs? And they weren't interested at all. That was a big shock to me, and I thought, wow,
you know what this is. It's kind of like we've only got half the story if we don't look at the defenses as much as they did in that in that course, we're really missing out. It was really Yeah, there were certain like AhR moments and I thought, wow, I really need to know that much better than what I did.
Yeah, before you're looking at it from two different sides, then, aren't you. So you have to get a better perspective on it. Counter Terrorism that's been a passion of yours. The work that you do in that space tells how you got into that, the interests, and what you find challenging and rewarding about working in the counter terrorism film.
Yeah. Well, I always say that I started working in counter terrorism long before it became sexy, long before nine to eleven when everybody suddenly worked in counter terrorism. So I went to a special branch in the eighties. I really wanted to go there. And it's funny because Nick Calders at the time is a great made of mind at the time and still is worked together when he was in uniform.
Actually, and I can't imagine that it comes it was so cute shout out to you, Nick, out we're saying good things and that.
Yeah, and he I think Nick was really interested in special branch. But at that time his career went in different directions, and I went and saw them and I said, this is what I'm interested in and all that sort of stuff, and they accepted me, which was really good, I think because I was a detective that stood me in good stead and there weren't many women there, and
I think they realized they needed some women. So I did a lot of CANi terrorism intelligence and investigations with John Garvey and people like that, Bruce Moore, all sorts of really great people, and the Dignitary Protection as well, and it was full on during the Bison tenery and I worked with ASO and people like that as well
at that time. And then I left and then after the Royal Commissioner, as I said, came back and initially ran CT investigations and intelligence when the Special Branch was closed, and so we had to resurrect a lot of relationships.
It was early days, and we've had Dave gaul On here and talking about it. It was sort of after ninety eleven. Of course, the focus was, yeah, we need to get this up and running properly and efficiently, but it was an area of policing and a different challenge to policing that the average police officer doesn't see.
Yeah, absolutely, nine to eleven changed everything in as much as before nine to eleven there was terrorism here. Most people didn't realize it, to be honest, but it was about foreign conflicts and where you know, foreign entity. Countries had a symbol here or a consulate or an embassy or something like that. In Australia, the attack was against another country in Australia, wasn't against Australia. After nine eleven,
it was against Australia. We became, i think for the first time the target of terrorism, specifically because we were Australian and really Bali was obviously the.
First big Bali bomb.
There were two Bali's, one in two thousand and two, one in two thousand and five, and you know, really realized that we're a target here, we as Australians, the Australian government, which had really never happened before. So that was the major turning point. Yeah, and between two thousand and twenty fourteen there were no terrorist attacks in Australia, mostly because of the legislation. So they brought in what was called Acts in preparation of a Terrorist Act and
that was really for conspiracy. It was like a conspiracy and which worked really well. But then in because they were big attacks that were planned and so there was plenty of time to disrupt. After twenty fourteen, they became much more simple. Do what you can where you are, with what you got. You don't have to kill one hundred kill one sort of thing for the terrorists. So
that's what changed. And in twenty fourteen we had our terroist attack in which two police officers, a Victorian and an AFP officer were stabbed in Melbourne and they shot dead the offender, the terrorist, and that was a big shock, I think because it was the first time on our soil that a terrorist attack occurred and against police officers where the target which was pretty scary as well.
Changed the landscape, doesn't it.
Yeah, it really did. It changed the landscape. It made it very real. Yeah, it did make it very real. And then in quick succession there were a lot more where you had a loan actor or a very small group acting together.
And you have to change your mindset from a police officer's point of view, because quite often the way in major crime we're reactive. Something happens and then we come in and investigate it. But yeah, the major goal of doing your job there if there's no one hears anything, yeah, you're preventing the crimes.
Absolutely. It's got to be very proactive and that's a challenge. As you said, it's a totally different way of looking at things. You're not waiting for something to happen, and so, yeah, being proactive is you've really got to work with your agency partners.
And there's a pressure that comes with that, like being proactive, because it's not a matter of well, it's happened, we're going to do our best to find out why it happened, but you're preventing it to happen again. Did you find find that pressure in the work that you did in the counter terrorism space.
Absolutely, yeah, it was. I would say a lot of people in counter terrorism every night go to bed thinking hopefully it's not tonight. You know what I mean, what have we missed?
Fingers crossed?
What have we missed? What have we missed? Because you know, a successful terrorist attack is a failure in investigation and intelligence really so, and then you're working backwards and you don't want to be there. So it's always how can we pick up the nuances? And you know, different pieces of evidence or information. The other thing is you're dealing
a lot with intelligence as opposed to evidence. So you get information as an investigator and you've got to translate that into evidence, and it's not.
Easy break that down for people that when I understand what you're saying, but how would you describe it?
O case, So we might get information from an overseas agency or another country that says, look, three people arrived in your country. We know that they're planning to do a terrorist attack. First name of one of them is nickers Nackers and they were last seen in you know, pick a suburb in Sydney. Okay, right, what does all that mean? Who are they? First of all, let's trying
to identify them, what's their motivation? And when we have to prosecute, can we disclose where that information has come from? Did well you need a search warrant? Well? Where did you get the information? So the legislation had to keep up with the environment, so that had to change as well. So how do you take something that's just information? They might Oh, we've got information that there's a bomb on a plane and it's taken and the flight number is X y Z. They're leaving No DA DA DA in
half an hour from Sydney Airport. What are you going to do? How do you then translate that piece of information? Firstly, how do you stop it from happening? Then secondly how do you actually how can you use that information as evidence? Because there's evidentiary rules and regulations obviously, and a lot of the time the intelligence we get and intelligence agencies don't understand evidence. To them intelligence, well you've got the information,
do something. Yeah, well it's called the law. They actually can't. We actually can't. And sometimes listening device in legislation is different for some agencies. It's a lower threshold to what we have. So if they obtain it through a particular means, it's not necessarily good enough, good enough evidentiary wise for us. So they're real challenges and it's a matter of educating
part agency partners about how we need something collected. But then that's got to comply with how they actually their their collection rules and yeah, so it really is a lot of cooperation and yeah, it's not.
Easy, it's complex. But the again and I talk about talk about the pressure that comes comes with that, because if you're the person that flicks that piece of intel away and then something major happens when there's when there is an investigation, is how the hell did this happen?
Yeah?
Ah, Caroline saw it and just said, oh, I don't worry about that and put them away.
Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely there is. You've got to be so vigilant. And look, there is a lot of accountability in process and a lot of consideration and all that sort of stuff. And you know what, gds are the eyes and ears of the world. And whenever we'd go out to speak to the GDS, I would always say to them, you know what, you know your community, you know when something's wrong, you know who the players are.
We're relying on you to be the eyes and ears in your community and to tell us what's going on, because you know, you're the experts.
And that's good advice. And you would have seen it. I've seen it where specialist squads might get a swagger or an arrogance about them and don't rely on the grassroots level, which is the police out there on the streets.
Yeah, you go to a domestic and you see stuff on a computer, or you see something stored in the backyard, what's going on? Don't you just think about why you're there for that moment, what else is happening.
And pass that information on and not just for the police, like it's the community now we're we're all got a part in it, yeah, haven't we.
Well. Norm Hazard, who was the first Assistant Commissioner for counterterrorism, he said, counter terrorism is the response of everyone, not just the cops, not just you know, intelligence agencies, not just the government, it's all of us.
You worked as his staff officer, that would have been an interesting and good gig.
Oh. Absolutely, And was just one of those people that he was very dynamic and very smart and he was so respected by the government by Michael Costa when he was the Police Minister, and you know, they'd come and ask Norm questions and they said, well if Norm says it's okay, it must be okay, you know. Like and he got a standing ovation in Parliament when he retired
because everybody respected him so much. And honestly, I remember one time, you know, he realized a capability gap that you know, he came in the next morning he said, what are we doing about this? He said, you know, I just was thinking about it last night and we need to cover off on this otherwise we're in a
world of hurt, right, we need to do this. There's there's and it was just one of those people who was strategic in his thinking and he knew where it could come back to bite us if we didn't do something about it, and then he had the capacity to make it happen, So, which are really rare qualities.
It's rare also that that, yeah, invariably and police people take sides or there's little clicks and all that, But I've never heard anyone speak badly of Norm Norm Hazard.
No me either, And yeah, he really was a chap. He was very blunt. I do remember one time Nick Caldice rang from Iraq. When Nick was in Iraq and I was in Norm's office and Norm said, oh, how you going? He said, Look, every time I watched the news on TV and there's a I RAQ, I'm expecting to see you lying under a bit of rubble and Nick's like, yeah, yeah, thanks, good one.
Norm.
So he was very down to earth. He was very down to earth and just yeah, so much respect for and I think policing was his vocation. You know, some people policing is their vocation and for him.
Yeah, and look I think that's an important thing. And it saddens me where I see people use and clearly it was your vocation. It was my vocation too, and it was something that I was going to to do it untill the day I stopped working. Circumstances change. We'll talk about that, but anyway, but yeah, you joined it and you grew and I don't know about you, but every single day I came to work, I was learning something.
I was upskilling and it didn't matter how long I've been investigating homicides or how long I've been doing this. I was learning something and adding it to the Okay, the experience. I'd like to see that with policing now. It really saddens me that not just in New South Wales but across the country, and I think even overseas police forces are struggling to fill people in those positions. People don't want to be police anymore. And I quite
often question, what is it about? Is it because we want all the quick fix and all that, and policing can be a hard career. What's your thoughts on current policing and why are we struggling?
Yeah, it's really difficult to know, but it is international it's world. Why that it's difficult. I think after the Black Lives Matter in the US, there was a lot of really and COVID. But I think all of those things apart from what's happening in policing, a lot of disruption, unrest, civil unrest which was pretty ugly in the US, and with COVID, everything was just so disrupted. And I went to a march out for Chief Inspector Jane Hansford. I
don't know. I think she was in the job for like forty one years or something, and the Association said in nineteen eighty when she joined, twenty six hundred people applied to join the police, and seven hundred and fifty were accepted. And we seem to have gone through these ebbs and flows and all the rest of it. But I think as people are better educated, perhaps that they don't want to join the police and be doing some of the stuff that you have to do that's not
very pleasant. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. I wish I did, but I don't know.
Yeah, I like I had a person like yoursel Phone or other people that have had outstanding careers and the police, and I hope people listening to this just understand that, yeah, okay, there might be some tough things, but it can be so rewarding. Look, your face lights up every time you relay a story. If not, you're sitting there and go, I didn't like my job.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it is rewarding, and I think there's great power in talking to young people about it. My daughter her at her school, I did canteen once a month. I'd go to work in the morning. I'd take a few hours of time. One so you can you manage time? Yeah, so you can manage that. Yeah, you have a family and go down with the moms and they'd say, you know, at one o'clock I go back to work. They say, you go back to work. And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got to go back to work.
It keeps you grounded to that type of thing.
Yeah, And one of the moms, her daughter wanted to do criminology. She said, would you mind having a talk to her? Anyway, she came and saw me at work and spent the day with me at work and all the rest of it. And she did forensic science degree which would fast track her into FSG and at the end of it, she joined the Cops, and she loved it so much she didn't want to do forensics anymore.
She just loved it in GDS. And I think that's the thing is, you know, when you're young and you're excited to be going to work and every day is different, there's so much there. And I said, you know, the world's at your feet. You can do whatever you want this And I think that's the thing. There's so much opportunity. And for me, I did so many different things. Not everybody's like that, but I was just endlessly curious about everything and I thought, oh wow, I really want to
know that. And look, when I first joined the cops, there was no way I thought I could ever be a prosecutor. I thought there is no way, Like I remember reading those facts in the witness box and thinking, oh my god, thank god, I'm not the prosecutor, you know, And then later on I had the opportunity. And all of that training is free, you know what I mean, Like you're being paid, you're being trained at the same time, and you come out with skills that you don't get
anywhere else. And I think it's fabulous career.
Yeah. Well, and I hope people I hope people join. I think there's so much reward that I've got, rewards in ways that I just couldn't imagine when I walked out of the academy and it's been life changing. But I think life changing. I think I've become a better
person because of what I've learned in the police. But some of the rewards that you get from policing, if you want a job that's challenging, exciting and rewarding, like it ticks a box for policing, it saddens me at the moment with the conflict at the top in the New South Wales Police, I don't like with our commission of the criticism that she's getting. You care to make any comments on that?
Yeah, I think it's terrible. You know, we have to support our police and that's from the top to the bottom and the bottom to the top, all of them. And saddens me when I hear and I hate to say this, but a lot of retired police, sorry guys, if you're out there, how about your support the troops on the ground And a lot of them do, but also a lot of them, you know, make disparaging remarks and Karen Webb has got a tough job. I would not want to be the commissioner for all the team
in China. I think it's a really tough gig. And I think she's really copying a lot of unfair criticism, and you know, just stop, just stop and let her do a job and steer the ship, keep it steady. You know, she needs support well, and doesn't help the cops ultimately to be sticking the knife in all the time.
No, I don't think it's a good I don't think it's a good look for the public. It doesn't give the public confidence. And yeah, it would be such a better look if people were supporting and not undermining. And I'm looking from the outside, so I've got no internal skin in the game or knowledge in the game, but I'm just thinking clearly there's people with an agenda to
cause mischief and make her job hard enough. I'd like to see them more focusing on doing what police should be doing and making sure we're living in a safe society. That would be.
Yeah, absolutely, And I think the thing is too. The challenges I had forty years ago are very different in some respects to the challenges they've got today. They all wear body worn video. You know, terrorists want to kill them. We never had any of that sort of stuff. And they come on to shift and they've got twenty or thirty jobs outstanding, Like it's you know, it's tough. We need to support them.
And when they're under resource, that just adds to the pressure, doesn't it. If you haven't got the troops, so you haven't got the staff, and that adds to the pressure. So yeah, shout out to the hard working, hardworking police and yeah, it's a tough job but rewarding. Yeah, since your retirement, it's only recently retired, but you're channeling your energy because Rick has neglected you and he's off playing policeman.
That's it.
How dare he do that?
I know?
Or is that you're asking him the work that you're doing with voter Do you want to explain that? Yeah, explain where it came from and what that's about, what you hope to achieve with it, because I think it's important.
Yeah, thank you. Well, it's victims of terrorism Australia. When I was in the police, probably about I don't know, ten or twelve years ago, I've always been fascinated with terrorism, but also I did a lot of research on the history of terrorism in Australia and particularly about the Hilton bombing, and everybody who's ever done any work with the Hilton always wanted to know who did it, who did it? Who did it? Well, we know who did it, Evan Pedderick went to jail and all the rest of it.
But there's so much controversy around it, and I thought, who cares who did it? What about the people who were killed or injured? What about the victims? Nobody ever talks about them, nobody remembers them. And there are two City of Sydney council workers, Bill Favell and Alec Carter who were killed, and also in New South Wales police officer Paul Burmistru And I thought, I wonder who Paul Burmistry was, Like, what did he look like? I googled and I couldn't even find a photo of him or
know anything about him. And I finally tracked his brother down and went to visit him and I said, I'm Caroline o Heir from New South Wales Police. You know your brother Paul was killed blah blah. He said, well, what are you doing here now? He died thirty five years ago or whatever. What what do you want. I was like, oh, okay, all right, okay, Well, I said, well, look,
I think it's important that we remember him. And I said, especially a young police need to know who he was and what he was about and all the rest of it and what I honor him. And I said, and I just want to know what he looks like and who he was as a person. Anyway, we became really great mates. I became great mates with his brother woll. We organized memorials for the Hilton, and we got his medals that he was owed issued and presented to Woll. And it just got on the role of actually tracking
down other victims. And one of the other guys who was there, Rod Wither, he's the last surviving New South I was police officer who was there. He came to our voter launch. So anyway, to cut a long story short, because my husband said I can talk underwater with a mouthful of marbles.
I think that's unfair, just because he's saying, I want to storm the stronghold with these men in black overalls, and there you are just talking, talking, talking, talking, and then you guys get home and then you just.
Talking talking, talking, Yes, and he just says, just stop, stop now, I feel for you. Yeah, that's it. So I thought, when I retire, I want to actually form a group that supports victims of terrorism. So with victims of terrorism, there's the there's circles of impact because it obviously impacts a lot of people. In the first circle of impact to those who were actually there during a terrorist incident, and I know that you've interviewed I hope before,
so she would be in the first circle. Then in the next circle is the bereaved and those who've lost somebody, family, friends, all that sort of stuff. The third circle of impact and they go out exponentially is are the first responders, witnesses, police, medical staff. And then the fourth impact is on the community. So terrorism is unique because it does affect everybody in the community, and we're all actually victims of terrorism in some way because we're all affected by it. Frightens us,
that's what it's meant to do. And I saw that there was a real gap in support for a lot of people, and so I went to the Police Association. Actually I went to some really good friends, said please can you help, And there's a working party of ten people, some academics, former police such as Dave Eloyees and some
victims all that sort of stuff. We got together and a neighbor of mine who's a lawyer, Poor thing, and we set up Victims of Terrorism Australia and the idea is that what we want to do is provide a couple of things. Firstly, peer support because getting together with somebody else who's been through a similar experience is very power empowering because victims of terrorism have been disempowered and to empower them, we want them to have a voice, so to be able to do that in a safe space.
We also want to be able to educate the public about what terrorism is and how it affects people. So taking our victims out to meet the community where they can and they're willing to do that because people get to see the human side of what terrorism does. We also want to do some research about best practice for
helping victims from around the world. And we want to do memorialization because that's very important, especially for the breathed, that their family members and the loved ones are not forgotten, and it's it's important for the communities. But like I was talking to somebody about it today, like with Anzac Day,
the community. Some people don't have any connection to, you know, any of the wars, but they come to pay their respects for those people and it's it's a community thing and it's really important for the community to remember and to yeah, memorialize. So that's basically what we're about. It's very slow going. If you want to contact us, it's
just contact at voter dot org dot au. And we've just got our website up and running thanks to Dave Gala, who's a genius, and that is voter v o t a dot org dot au.
Okay, yeah, well, good luck with that because the way that you've explained that there is that area that's been missed and people are often often forgotten. We talk about the attack, but the ramifications that flow on from it, and that's so. Yeah, it's good to see you busy. You're going to do another degree or something.
Rick said, no more study.
I believe it. I believe it when when I see it.
Yeah, you said, not forget it. I said, I was thinking about doing a master's. He said, nut, can't.
Help yourself, cannot I actually do?
You know? I really don't think I have it in me anymore. I'm quite happy never go to university again.
How was it the day you left the police did? What was the feelings that you had when you walked out and you're no longer a cop?
Well, it was quite funny because I had a march out from the SPC. So that morning we went in and I was all in my uniform for the last time. And Rick said, Okay, we're going to go down and do a shoot. Do you last.
That's a good idea, that's very very romantic.
You.
I can see what you're seeing him. Let's go to the firing.
Range, she said, and with a five shot.
School the old school.
And Rick had a shoot too. How excited.
I can just say that love in the air.
And I actually did much better than I thought I would. I said, can you keep that? You know, the s frame it. I said, just laminate it or something. I want to keep that. So did my shoot and then had the march out and everything, and at the end of it it was really nice. I had the bagpipes and then I got in an F one hundred and we drove around the block with the sirens going and all that sort of stuff. It was a lot of fun and it was nice, and I was happy to go.
It was time for me to go. I didn't hate going to work. I still enjoyed going to work, but it was time.
It's a good time if you can leave it. Leave at that point, no regrets, enjoy, enjoyed every moment. Full credit to you. And I say this like, I know how hard you worked, and I know you weren't hiding. You were out there doing the work. And it was a long career. So you should be very proud, proud of you. Thank you. Yeah, do you think your life ahead of you? Now? You're going to find the enjoyment or the rewards like you're doing your voters. Yeah.
Look, it's really funny because when you're about to reply retypele say what's your plan? What's your plan? You think, oh my god, I've got to have a plan. I don't know what my plan is. What's my plan? And I said, oh, I'm going to set up a victims of Terrorism's book grip. So after I left the next hour, I thought, now I've actually got to do it. I talked about it for long enough. I've got to do something.
A big game. Yeah exactly.
Yeah, Look I really enjoy that, but I think, Yeah, when you've been really, really busy and involved in things, it's good to be involved in something that really has a great purpose. It's also nice not to be responsible for everything that happens around you.
Yeah. When I left, the thing I know this most was the phone. I wasn't didn't have to be a slave to the phone before. The phone was with me the whole time, and you'd be called at any time, and your life could be turned upside down, and the areas that you worked, you had the same thing for the first six months. Why isn't anyone finning? Like why isn't the phone ringing at two o'clock in the morning.
But now I look back and I realized the sacrifices that you made when you're on call, and all those times that you didn't see it when you're in the actual work. But it's nice to just step back and you can know you can go to bed and not worry about when waken up in the middle of the night and end up at crime scene or a siege with your boyfriends slash husband.
Exactly.
Sorry, I got I just think it's funny they should make a comedy out of those two I do have. I want you sorry.
I was just going to say that. One night when I was on we used to live up at Rick's place at Mount kring Guy and for some unknown reason, at like two am, this is like nearly thirty years ago, shots fired. And I said to Rick, oh my god, it sounds like a gunshot. And he said it is a gunshot. I went, oh my god, it must really be a gunshot. To Frixate that was what he's talking about. And I was on call. I said, I'm god, I'm going to get my gun out. And he said, give
me your gun. I said, I'm not giving you my gun. He say get your gut. He said, give me a gone because he didn't hurt me either. He's a better shot.
Yeah, I think there's probably no criticism of what they've been.
An arm toned up at our next door neighbor's house. Oh really, Oh my god, in this sleepy little suburb when nothing happens and it's right next door.
That would have been great. You could have set up the prim Rick's here, the tactical team than the gay Shader was the.
Most bizarrely, local cops came around. They said, I said, we're in the cops. Rix you to bah bah blah and all this sort of stuff. And they said, is anybody trying to kill you? I said, not that I know of.
But now I cautioned you at the start of the yeah interview, so answer this carefully. Yes, please, please be honest. You we and Rick working at any time? Did Rick say to you when he's there with the tactical team, you're there with the gay shaders? Can we wrap this up quickly because I'm hungry. I want to gave for dinner or plans.
No, not Rick.
Rick.
I might have said that, but not Rick. Rick is one hundred percent focused and very diligent and like really he really is in tactical well, whatever he does, he's a perfectionist.
He would drives me nuts to cut the seed short just to get his haircut.
No, yeah, or for me to make my appointment.
Well, I just if you know, we learned things about guests when they come on. The one thing I've learned about you that you managed to wrap up a siege so you could get you your hair appointment. I didn't think i'd hear that on my catch killers.
Yeah. We're happy with the cut absolutely, and the color fantastic.
Fantastic. Let's end it on that note. Thank you so much for coming in. I've had so much fun, and again full credit for your career.
Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.
Cheers, cheers. I reckon. You get a sense of why Carolina Hair was so liked in the New South Wales Polace. She's a fun person and she's had an amazing career. I've got to say that was a fun chat. She always brings a smile to my face and some interesting stories. And I love the fact the relationship between her and the husband, who was a technical police officer and she was a negotiator. That just makes me laugh thinking about it.