The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see aside of life. The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, I spoke to Nicole Meyer. It was a very difficult conversation they have. You may not recognize Nicole's name, but it's likely you've heard of the case. She was closely
linked to. Nicole and the two younger sisters, Elie Sapper and Dassy Elrich, made allegations about being sexually assaulted by their school principal, malch Leifa whilst at the ultra Orthodox Jewish school called a Das Israel School. Just days after the allegation came to light, Malchallifa fled back to Israel with her family. That led to a thirteen year legal battle to get Malcha Leifer extradited back to Australia to face twenty nine charges relating to the sexual abuse of
Nicole and the sisters. There was a seven week trial in August twenty twenty three where Malcal Leifer was convicted of eighteen counts relating to the sexual abuse of Nicole's two sisters, but was clear of the charges relating to herself. We talked about the impact that this horrendous situation had on Nicole. It was a deeply personal and troubling story,
but one I think is important to talk about. Before we listened to this conversation, I need to reiterate that Malchal Leifer was found not guilty of charges relating to our guests Nicole Meyer. So in the eyes of the law, these offenses were not proven. We need to acknowledge and accept that. But if we're going to put our trust in the court's decisions, let's also accept Malcolifho was found guilty of eighteen counts of sexually abusing the Coles sisters
and was sentenced to fifteen years imprisonment. Nicole Meyer, welcome to our Catch Killers. Thank you well, look, thank you for coming in and talking about what's occurred to yourself and your sisters. It must be difficult to talk about, but I think it's important that people like yourself talk about what happened.
It has been difficult initially, but now I find it actually healing and I hope validating and supporting for any other survivor that actually tunes in and listens.
Yeah, we've had we've had previous victims and in my time in the police, victims of sexual assault or survivors of sexual assault that some people refer to it as. I think there is strength in people speaking out because quite often there's victim blame, the victims blame themselves for whatever bizarre reason that, oh, this has happened to me.
But the more people that speak about that, I think it makes people more comfortable that you are a victim and it's nothing to do with the person that's been assaulted. That's a person that's created that.
Environment, absolutely, and I think it also removes the shame. There is so much shame when it comes to being abused and not being able to say your story or feeling too ashamed is a difficult one. So being able to speak out give strength to others as well that they don't have to stay quiet and don't have to feel that shame.
Yeah, talk me through the shame. Why the shame? Where do you think that comes from?
I think many victims survivors sometimes feel that the abuses their fault or why they didn't say no, or why they couldn't stop it, or why they didn't walk away. So there's a lot of shame associated with our self blame and our self criticism and even myself. I reflect back and I think where was my head in those years?
But when someone has such control over you, like Marc life I did over me, there was no options of no, and that was just one fact of why I couldn't say no. So the shame is associated with could I have done something different to stop it? Or why was I chosen to be a victim? Or did I somehow ask for it? Not really, but did I do something that made that person think I was an easy target?
That's the insidious nature of a crime where the perpetrator is grooming people too isn't it absolutely creating that doubt, and that's where the nature of the crime and it continues on that guilt that's attached to the victims because of the way they've been groomed.
Yes, grooming is just the very beginning of the whole abuse cycle. Unfortunately, and particularly with Markolaeifer. She was a woman, and she was nurturing, and she was kind and she was caring. So it wasn't just her coming in and
taking advantage. It was a slow build up of crossing boundaries that I didn't even know were there until the abuse started, and it all was disguised under care, love and nurturing, which I was severely lucky from home, so I was appreciative of that care, attention, love that she was so freely giving to myself and others.
It adds to the confusion, doesn't it. It adds to the confusion of what's occurred to you. The matter itself attracted the such an intense interest from the community, the public and also the media. Did you feel that that pressure of your life has almost become very public?
I think when I slipped into becoming a public figure, I remember that moment quite well because I felt anonymous. I was still working in the school where I was abused. I went and gave a police statement, and a week later I took a week off, and a week later I went back and continued teaching as if I didn't do it, teaching in the very same building I was abused in. So I was very private, so I thought so when I became more public and I stepped out
with my story, all of a sudden people knew. But at the same time, I think I grew stronger and stronger as it became bigger, and I realized I'm fighting for a story that's not just mine, but on behalf of so many survivors and being a voice for so many that it didn't matter anymore. And also the media really helped us along the way, so we felt encouraged by their support as well. We created some really good relationships with some of them.
Okay, well, that's a good way to navigate yourself through a very difficult situation. I'm thinking the attention that the media in the public, or the fascination that the people had in the actual case, was the perpetrator was a female, because that's not the perception that we hear sexual abuse, sexual assault. It's quite often linked to the man being the perpetrator. In your case, it was a female. Do you think that made a difference.
I think he opened the minds of so many that may have not realized that a woman can be a perpetrator in that way to that, and I think since then I've become aware of quite a few female perpetrators, but it felt like Malcholifel was one of the first, and maybe because it was so publicized because of the extradition, but it just I think he opened the minds of many Australians and really around the world around female perpetrators being right up there.
Tell me a little bit about your upbringing.
I was born first child in Australia. My parents immigrated before I was born, from England, and I was born after eight years of my parents not having any children, so I was almost like the oldest of the second lot of children to two older siblings. Four siblings two years consecutively each below me. We had a very strictly controlled upbringing. There's a version of, like I guess, being strict and insulated because of the religion, but then there
was also the abuse on top of that. So unfortunately my parents were primarily my mother, very abusive to an extent that is extremely severe, and that is probably what is most difficult to talk about because I feel that many don't have the capacity to understand the severity of the abuse that we grew up with. And there's been times where sharing something has been met with this belief and that couldn't be possible. While no one could, no mother could be like that. But that was our experience
growing up, and it was very hidden. No one knew we turned up to school looking well dressed, and even if it wasn't in trend, so to speak, but we had the clothing. We had food, at least some of the time. There were many times we didn't have food for either punishment or just there wasn't and people could not see that we had bruises, or we stayed home from school or left home school early to go home
and clean. It wasn't obvious, It wasn't extremely obvious to someone who wouldn't know to look out for signs of what a child from an abuse home could look like.
It's a horrible situation that find yourself in, like a childhood that should be support, nourishing, and to have that I know when we spoke the other day, you said it was difficult to talk about. There's a couple of things that I picked up in the judge's sentencing comments when he talked about the upbringing of yourself and your two sisters. Comments are about the treatment that you find.
For me to read those out, okay. This is from a Judge Gamble at the County Court of Victoria in the reasons for sentencing and the complainants, and this is from the Sensing report. The complainants were raised in an ultra Orthodox Jewish family. They had other siblings, including older sisters and younger brothers the complaints. The complaints were subjected to a very difficult upbringing due to a cruel and unpredictable way their mother behaved towards them. Each was mistreated
and witnessed the mistreatment of their siblings. Their mother neglected and abused her children regularly, both physically and emotionally. She also threatened them. The physical abuse included slaps, kicks, pinching, as well as the use of objects, including straps. This caused bruising in other marks. The complaints were expected to do the housework and mistreat that if it was not done perfectly and to their mother's liking. On occasions, she would lock one or more of the children in the
dark cupboard, sometimes for lengthy periods. On other occasions, she would tell one of the children that they were discarded and no longer part of the family, and then get her husband to drive that child to a park and leave them there alone for a significant period. Food was often withheld as a form of punishment and control for
each complaint, feeling hungry as an enduring childhood memory. On any view, it was a miserable home life for the complainants who were starved of love and affection and left in a perpetual state of fear and confusion. It's pretty heavy. Yes, yeah, that must have been part of the evidence that came out that came out in the trial.
It did because it explained some context as to why we were, I guess desperate for some love and attention.
Yeah. Yeah. And in my experience as a police officer and from people that sat in the seat you're sitting in now, it's apparent to me that perpetrators look for people like yourself and your sisters that were in a difficult environment, and that makes them easier to groom. Would you agree with that perception.
Yes, I think there's also a part of that could be obedient and listening to adults, which I think any child will go through, regardless of their upbringing, that you always listen to adults. So there's that. But definitely, Markolfers saw and very quickly understood that our home life was far from perfect and realized that if she gave us food, love, care, yeah, then she had us.
So the school, Can you tell me a little bit about the school and the community, because a lot of people don't understand the ultra orthodox way that you were brought up or the environment that you grew up, and can you explain that a bit to us.
I'll try and explain that shortly. I would say it's an insular community with not much influence from the external world. What each home does will be according to the level that they agree on. So there'll be some families that will go to the public library. There'll be a lot of families that don't. For example, when I grew up, we were so strictly brought up we couldn't even have a cold catalog allowed into our home, so that's how
insulated we were. There'll be families that won't have any idea of the sport or what's going on in the external world surrounding them, and there'll be others that do. So it's just it's mostly a very insulated community with our own kosher shops and butcher and even hairdressers and services naiol salons, any of that kind of stuff you need. Does not mean you cannot get services elsewhere, but you would support the people in your community first if you can.
Boys and girls are kept strictly segregated, and the modesty is a huge component of all of it. And in saying that, then the girls will be dressed very modestly from the age of three and up, and there is no male interaction other than your family members at all until you are in the dating or getting ready to be engaged from birth pretty much.
So in that insular environment that you're living in, that's the community, but also the school, so it wasn't sort of you're living in an environment at home, but going to school and getting a more worldly view or a wider view of what goes on. The school adopted that approach too, so you and your sisters were very insulated from what was going on.
Absolutely, it was my whole life was by home, my school, my synagogue, or interrelated or connected all the same people and nothing beyond that.
Yeah, that played in and again I picked up some comments from the judges sensing report that played into your naivety in regards to sexual matters as well, because of the insular world that you were living in.
Absolutely, there was no sex education in our schools whatsoever.
So that would I would imagine when the offenses started occurring, that would have caused confusion because you wouldn't have had much understanding what was going on.
I had absolutely no idea what was Markolova's intentions or what was happening. That's even before the dissociation stepped in. Even just her putting her hand on my thigh or my back, I would have not known that was a red flag and that was her testing the boundaries to see what my response would be. Yeah, I just frozen, didn't say anything, didn't do anything, didn't understand anything.
It's so understandable when you describe in the environment in which you grew up and how nagive you were, it must have been so confusing for Yeah, the judge made a comment and I'll refer to that because it was a seven week trial and obviously delved very deeply into all the issues relating to the offenses. Due to the ultra orthodox upbringings, that complaints remained ignorant in sexual matters until shortly before they got married. They received no form of
sexual education, either at home or at school. They had no understanding of human anatomy, puberty, or sexual relations, and didn't even know the words ascribed for intimate parts of the body. And from a very early age they were taught the girls and women must dress very modestly and not reveal or discuss their bodies. The complainants ignorance in sexual matters continued well into their late teenage years until shortly before they got married. So why these offenses were
occurring against yourself and your sisters? You were ignorant to what was going on? Absolutely, did you talk amongst yourselves? Did No?
There was one incident where there was a school camp and my sister slept in the same room she visited just for one night. I was there as a young teacher, and she Michaelafe thought she was sleeping and she abused me in the bed that I was sharing with her while my sister was on the single bed, and that's
how my sister found out I was being abused. The next morning, I gave her a look, just a look, nothing else, and I went to find her something she needed because she didn't bring all her stuff with her, so I went to ask some other people for some stuff. And I didn't want her to be left alone with Markllifer and Machaelifa kicked me out the room and then went into the bathroom where she was showering.
Right, how did you feel as the older sister.
At that moment, which is a very visual memory for me, I felt awful because I did not want even if I had no words, I just did not want Michael Life. I learned with my sister, and that was my understanding that Michael Life was abusing her, okay, and that was it.
Horrible, horrible situation. This went on for a number of years.
So when Marchalife entered my life, I was fifteen and a half years old in year ten. What the courts did not get to hear was that she continued to abuse me post me getting married and being pregnant and first child. And that is something that I'm not ashamed anymore to share because even though I know that the prosecution and potentially the defense made that decision based on what the general understanding of abuse is, it felt at the time extremely invalidating to me because the abuse didn't
stop when I was engaged. It continued. And what stopped me from allowing her to abuse me the way that she was to the extent that she was was her lying herself down on me when I was pregnant, and my naivety even then was thinking that her in my mind fat, which was not a nice word to use, so her large body was going to squash my baby.
And that is what instinctively did not allow me to be in the same room with her again, to be able to be in that position, not that the abuse stopped, but that she was not able to lie full length on top of me like that again. And that is a very significant moment because I still didn't have words, I still was extremely naive, but the protection of my child is what allowed me to make sure that there was some protection from the full amount of the abuse.
Then when she left in two thousand and eight, it was simply because my sister was incredibly brave overseas, living in Israel alone and disclosed to a social worker there. That social worker could not believe that it was Markalalifa because she knew she used to live in Australia herself as well.
Right then she knew her.
She knew Markalifa personally, very personally. She called me to confirm and I said yes, because I am too. And that was And there's a bit of not quite remembering properly whether Dussy my sister called me first and said, you know, I'mah's going to call you or not. Both of us don't remember the same exact what happened then, but it was a shock. I went to school and it felt like someone died. She had packed up and gone in the middle of the night. But it didn't
happen straight away. It happened a couple days later, and there was such a you could feel the tension in the school. Markalifa was still there. They were trying to figure out what to do. She was principal of the school. And I don't remember who, and I wish I did someone or somebody's prepared me that she might come to my classroom and ask me what's going on. And that is the last memory I have of her. She pulled
me out of class. It was the only time I've ever seen her look scared, and she asked me, what's going on. I stammered out some kind of reply that I couldn't and I don't know, And that night she left.
Okay, I want to talk about how it came about and how quickly and readily she left the country with her with her family. So just breaking it down, your sister, and let's put it in the timeframe. When were the offenses occurring over what period of time?
So she arrived two thousand and one all the way to two thousand and eight, and I was there the entire time that.
She was, and what sort of age we're talking about when the offenses started happening.
So the grooming started for last fifteen and a half, right, so year ten and I was the first class that she groomed, and then any class below me all the way until she left.
Your sister's told the counselor over overseas made contact with you, and then I would imagine mandatory reporting. She's reported. What were the circumstances in which it came to life's attention that there's been complaints made against her? How was that dealt with.
I'm not sure what happened at that time. I just know that it was within days one, two, three days and she was gone. It was not long after my sister disclosed that she left the country. The exact intricacies. I don't know if anyone's ever going to be fully honest about what happened in that time.
Yeah, of just breaking down, like the timeline that I've looked for, the documentation that's available that your sister made the disclosure to a counselor in late February two thousand and eight. School board stood lifeer down on the fifth of March two thousand and eight, and at one twenty am the very next morning, and her family called a
flight to Israel. Yes, okay, when you found out that Life had left the country with her family shortly after it's been brought to the attention of the school, how did you feel.
I wasn't ut a shock because being a victim of hers but still being abused till the day she left, there was no closure this is happening, and mentally preparing, okay, I'm not going to see this person. So she was there one day, she was not there the next. From an external perspective. It's almost like I was in a de realization kind of perspective. I'm watching hordes of teachers and students go to the main lunch room or gathering room and everyone's in a state of grief, and I'm like,
this happened because of me. This happened because of my sister. This is something I had a part of, but no one knows that, so I didn't know where to place myself. It was the oddest feeling. And no one has ever actually asked me that question. You are the first person that has. And it was just there was shock, there was shame, There was I wonder if anyone's going to find out that it's me. My sisters weren't in the school.
They were like I was the only out of the three of us still working in the school, and what does that mean for my life?
Like?
What have I set in motion?
It's a lot of pressure to carry because I would imagine the rumors and people would be speculating on what's happened here, and you've got the yeah, you understand what's happened. It must have been very difficult.
It was incredibly difficult. And the person who stepped up to be interim principle actually took me to a therapist one session and she I was so numb and associated and disconnected. She took out cars and said, tell me your feelings from these Teddy Bear cars. I said, I don't do Teddy Bear cards. And that was the end of the session and I never went to therapy again until years later. But it was like, no feelings, no cars,
I'm in shock. Like back then, I wish I could say to her, you're dealing with a victim who's just had her life turned upside down, who has no idea what's just happened, doesn't even understand the impact of the abuse, and asking her to describe her feelings not happening okay.
On teddy Bear cards. I like that police investigation was not commenced until mid twenty eleven when your sister came forward with and statements were taken around June twenty eleven. So I'm just trying to understand this sister's report that counselor has reached out to you. Obviously a formal report has been that all the school has been notified, there's been it's obviously been discussed, and then life has left
the school and went to Israel. It's not till a couple of years after that it's reported to the police, and who reported it to the police.
So I just went back to normal work, having kids, my sister living overseas, and other sister getting married, living so it's just it was just this complete disconnect. It was a shock. I remember being in the school and everyone in an utter shock, and a and principles stepping up and everyone in shock, like it was a huge shock and displacement in the school. But then it just settled. School had to keep going on, kids still had to
be taught, life still had to keep happening. And then my sister, my youngest sister, they were youngest of us three, gave a police statement. She was the first one. I hadn't even entertained the idea of giving a police statement when she did.
Did you know that was an option for you? Did that was and I'm looking at the world in which you grew up, Did you say that as something that you could have reached out to the place I.
Always had a burning desire for justice to happen. When that exactly started, I don't know, But no, I don't know if I would have ever initiated going forward if my sister hadn't first simply because shame, feared association, and just not even knowing that is something I could do. It was not even it was never given to me. Like I've had people ask me directly, well, if they knew that you were a victim right before she left,
why didn't you say anything? I said, No one came to me and said, can we go to the police. I'll support you, Let's tell them what happened. So that weekend, no one gave me that option. I didn't even know that was available.
Okay, I understand what you're saying now sitting down talking to you, But I also understand why people would be saying, well, why didn't you go to the police. But that's why I think the judges made such a point of talking about your upbringing and the environment in which you grew up with. But yeah, that to me makes the offense, well, it doesn't make any more sinister. It's an evil offense to start with. But clearly she was praying on exactly the things that were holding you back from going to
the police. Is your ignorance, yes, and not understanding. Okay, So your sisters decided to go to the police. Did the police reach out to you or did you go to the police?
Could be they did. I don't think they did. Ellie went first, Dust a couple months later, and finally, on the day I found out I was young pregnant with my youngest, I went to the police station and gave my report. Yes, it was so traumatizing, and I think any survivor victims vive, but that listens to this will understand. I actually have no memory of giving my police statement. I don't know who took it. I don't know what
I said. Obviously I've got the papers, but I don't have any physical or visual memory at all of doing that. That's how hard it was for me to step out of my entire insulated, closed private life and do something so extreme, even though it felt right to do. And that was the first time in my life, even post all my babies. I took a week off work for mental health needs and I didn't even know I needed. I just knew I couldn't go back to work for a week and I did somehow to figure out what
I had done. Yeah, even when I was doing the committal hearing before trial, the defense lawyer was saying did you sign that statement? And I was like, well, my signature was there, so I did. But I actually have no memory of doing that, because that's how traumatizing giving my first statement was.
And that's not unusual for traumatized people, not at all in situations like that. It's difficult to understand unless you've been in that situation, but it's not unusual. Okay, so we've got now a police investigation. Your sisters have come forward, the three of you. Did you think there would be How did you think you were going to get justice? Given the fact she's gone back to Israel? Did they explain the complexities of extraditions and all that type of thing.
I smile Riley now because I was so trusting and so innocent, and when I heard the words, sure, we'll send a state mister Canberra, get the paperwork done, go to Israel and get her, I was like, great, story over. I had absolutely no idea, and I can still remember the relief I felt. How simple that all was. How long can it take it to get paper stamped in camera and then just pick her up? It was like one plus one And it did not happen like that at all. It was the most. It I don't know
the word. It pulled me down so much in my entire life was surrounding around dates, around who's the next police contact that we can keep in contact with, because it changed a couple of times over the years. Who's ignoring us or giving us any update? What's happening, what's happening in Israel? Why is there complete silence? It was three years of utter waiting and silence and hopelessness, and
it's never going to happen. But we didn't understand why because we didn't have enough information happening, what was going.
On, the complexities of trying to organize this. We'll talk about the extradition and how long it took, but before we do, can we just break down. Can you explain to people that what actually happened to you we've talked about in a general sense, but the grooming started and that life would take you the locations where you're on your own, you'd go to a place on a Sunday
for extra tutoring or schooling. Can you explain the pattern that she created that allowed her to commit those offenses against you and what it actually involved.
Recently, through my healing journey, I've actually thought I could write a book on the seven years that I with Marko Loefer because it is so extensive, and the coercive control and the impact and the control she had in every single area of my life is extremely difficult to understand unless it's really fully understood. So she entered my
life when I was in year ten. She started immediately that year already crossing boundaries like no teacher ever put their hands on the students shoulders to push them down the corridor. No teacher ever touched a student full stop. It just wasn't in our school female and we didn't
have male teachers. It just wasn't. So she already with everyone, showed that she was that kind of touchy, feely person, caring, smiling, chaotic, but she was just everywhere and anywhere, interested in everyone, very quickly made favorites, and those favorites shifted and changed over time, and everyone knew who her favorites were. Pulled kids out of class to ask them to do errands or to get little jobs, or help them with the
news letter or all that kind of stuff. Then we moved to them back to the main building with the rest of the school, and she was still the teacher, and she would have this little office between our classroom and she would just like be on the phone and just like keep an eye out. You just somehow knew that her eyes were always everywhere, and if she wanted you, it doesn't matter where you were in the school, she would send someone to find you and bring you to her.
So you were never quite free of her. And then she became principal of the actual school, so that was a whole messy fiasco where she literally kicked off the other principle and proved that she was better to do that job. And once she became principal of the school, there was no stopping her. I went through year twelve, and that's when there was serious abuse happening already, and she was just everyone's favorite. Like she groomed a community.
She groomed the teachers, she groomed all the students. It was missus life for this and missus life for that. There will always be a couple that said, oh no, they thought she wasn't so great, and I can understand that, But for everyone else, I would say she groomed majority of the community with her actions and behaviors where she was her visibility was always there with all the functions
and events that were happening. And I was definitely one of her favorites and should pull me out of class, she would lock her door, she would pull down the blinds, and then she would abuse for an hour and then send back the class. She would be red faced. I'd be red faced, and no one blinked because you wouldn't even for a second think that's what she's doing. So and it wasn't just me, it was allegedly many other
students as well. And it's kind of you got to know which students she took privately, because you just notice if you're one, you notice who else is being pulled in. And then I went to first year teaching. She was very, very proud. She has six girls going from year twelve right into the school the next year. This is the product of why she's become head of the school. It was a huge moment for her. We took over the school three four, five, six, seven eight. We were like
amazing powerhouses of teachers. We had teacher training. We taught the Jewish studies, so we weren't qualified to these general studies. They had the qualified teachers for that, but we did a really good job. I mean I loved teaching. I was passionate, and I loved every minute of it. I had this life that I loved of teaching, and I respected her knowledge and everything. And this is what was brought up to me in court. Here you are writing Marc Life, I thank you letters for helping you, and
at the same time you're saying you're being abused. And I was like, that was two different lives. The abuse was a whole life of its own that was happening, completely disconnected from that. I was giving my everything to my job, and then even disconnected to that the abuse that was going on at home. It was like I was my whole life was my teaching, and she completely
invaded every part of that. And the big shame of the whole case is that no one, all the witnesses in the school, no one came forward and said I
saw this or I saw that, even retrospectively. And that's what is very deeply hurtful and upsetting, because there were witnesses that didn't know they were witnesses at the time, but over the years had so many opportunities to come forward and say, yes, we saw this, and I saw Nicole being pulled out of class by macaul Life as soon as the bell rang when her class finished, And that did happen. And I saw this person in camp in a room with her alone. I saw that person.
There were witnesses that did see things, even if they didn't quite know what they were seeing at the time. And then I taught year one of teaching, absolutely loved it. Year two, in the second year of teaching, I actually got engaged. And that I will say this because I want to explain the level of her control. I got engaged to the son of the person she kicked off the principle right. She broke that engagement.
She was the cause.
Yes, she managed to convince my mother that he's not appropriate for X y Z. She even pulled in another prestigious woman who happened to be visiting from overseas and helping with the school at that time, got her to sit down and talk to me. I was given a phone and told call the boy and tell them you're not getting married in five weeks.
It's horrible control.
That is the level. And I was given a whole paper of all the sins he did, poor thing that he didn't do. There were no sins, and I had to read that to him and that was it.
I'm speculating here, but a motive for that, whether it's jealousy or whether she's concerned that someone that she's made an enemy to and things might pass between you and him and it might lead to her being discovered. Correct, So she's moving all these things around just to cover up her actions. And just take you back to a couple of things you said there where people had seen things or yeah, you both go of students taken out of out of class, and then an office and comes
out red face, and the principal's red faced. These are red flags, aren't they? These should be warning signs. And I think the days are gone where people can just say, oh, well, you know, I wasn't sure, so I didn't report that. What do you say to those people that have seen that, that suspect something that's going on that didn't speak out.
I will say to anyone there isn't any educational position or anywhere. Really, if you sent something, go and talk to someone about it. Don't hold it to yourself, because the damage that you can be causing by your silence is more harmful than you can imagine red flags are they're nonverbal. They do happen, and we see with abuse cases coming out like the childcare centers, how many people have said, oh, they saw this or they wrote this, said this. We do as humans, we do notice things.
Sometimes we don't, but when we do act on it. Talk to someone, talk to your superior, talk to a friend, and ask advice and then decide together what's the best course of action. But don't don't just keep it to yourself, because that is what is most damaging.
Yeah, the role that she created and the way that you've described her, she sunds like a larger than life character. And I'm just it's annoying me for of it because I can imagine the type of person you're talking about, the chaotic, and she's always touchy, handy, handy on kids. But that's just her. That's the way they cover their actions, isn't it.
Yes, And she ran the school so chaotically, but somehow it worked. She would literally be giving me material right before lesson that she asked me to substitute five minutes before and then race into class and teach, and then she'd be working out timetables middle of the night and call me and ask her to help with that, or writing news letters, or ask me to help with policy and the legal stuff that she had to fill out or the admin stuff, and I would help her with that.
So I was really her, I would say, her assistant in a way, with the amount of work and help that I did for her in every possible way. But that was also her involvement in my life in every possible way.
You use the word coersive, and there's legislation that's come into a lot of states around the country with relationships, where people are in relationships and the need for that coercive control and the police to have those powers. What you're describing there sort of ticks of boxes. It's coercive control. It's not in a domestic relationship, but it's coercive control in the environment you were working. Would you agree with that absolutely?
Because there was no decision and no movement that I made without her saying it was okay or without knowing she would have an opinion about it. After and even when I got married, there was a time she couldn't get hold of me on my phone. She stalked me to find where I was where she thought I was. Now I happened to be somewhere private that I didn't want her to know where I was that moment, and she came careening around the corner with someone that drove
another victim of hers. And as I walked out that building she saw where I was, she was satisfied have not had my phone not available to be telling her where I was.
Did you ever have any conversations with her about, yeah, I'm uncomfortable with this or was that just sort of it was an area you just couldn't go.
Absolutely none, It was no. There was no possibility to say no one time in the whole seven years that I knew her. I had a little bit of backbone. I wanted to go and work somewhere else other than the squl was working in to earn more money, to have an opportunity to work in a different Jewish school.
She shut that down so fast, and then to punish me, she took away a secretarial job that I did have in the school was working in and gave it to some new person that had come in from overseas as well to curry favor because her father was on the board. So it was all, you know, complex in that way, and I just knew I won't even try and cross her because that was the financial impact of if I did.
How did she have the standing within the school? Like she came over what you did? You say? She came without one to teach and then she was there until two thousand and light and rose to be the principal of the school. What was her backstory before she came across to the school.
She was teaching before she came to Australia. She had a lot of knowledge. She probably had some degrees and stuff that she did when she finished school. And she was very religious. So she looked the part, yeah, but
she definitely wasn't the part at all. So she looked like someone that had good values, good attributes, and was a respectful person of the faith and the religion and would inspire, would inspire the students under her care to be more connected to God and religion through there, through her actions and the things that she's doing with them. The learning programs and they were all all those programs were amazing. It's just it was all covering up as well a lot of what she was trying to get
away with underneath, because deeply underneath she was evil. She was not what she was portraying to the community and the school. So she earned the respect by her actions and her knowledge and her wisdom in the Jewish religion and all the textual stuff that she knew that in everything else.
Hypocrisy of it too, Yes, saying that this is the values on following them being completely opposite. Is there any suggestion that I'm speculating here, but any suggestion that there was any rumors about her or any knowledge of this type of behavior before she came to Australia.
Only after stuff came out here. Yes, some of her former alleged victims overseas did contact a reporter, but the statue of limitations were over, so it wasn't something they were willing to come forward because it was of course, it's an uproot upheopal to their lives, and if they can't do anything with information, they don't just want to give their story. Yeah, but they did affirm that that was the case.
Okay, your sisters, the offenses that occurred against your sisters and the type of grooming, can you talk about your comfortable just talking about what they went through as well.
So I'm not entirely sure because even though we are allowed to read each other statement now and we have seen the charges that came out. That's pretty much all that I know. We actually haven't sat down together because there was so much going on through the trial, which was nine weeks, including deliberation, we haven't had time to sit together and actually deep brief and that's something that we might be able to have the strength or the
energy to do one day. But I do know that whatever abuse happened to me happened to them and allegedly to many others.
I would imagine, and this would have made it difficult that when the matters were reported to the police, you would have been instructed not to talk to each other about the offenses in protect the potential contamination the evidence. From an emotional point of view about talking about the evidence, you must have been aware that your sisters had made
complaints as well. How difficult was again being isolated from being able to speak people close to your sisters that have been through similar experiences.
I think the shame was so great at that time, and the disconnect from the actual abuse. It was like dundusted gave the statement, Okay, I needed to come back. It wasn't. We grew closer and closer over the years, but Lofa wasn't the center of that. Our campaigning made us absolutely impossibly close because we were so closely working together to bring her back. But we knew, like you said, and we all knew from very early on, that the topic of the abuse and any ax or anything like
that could never be discussed. So literally was only what we witnessed of each other during those years. So my younger sister witnessed my second sister being taken to a different room, and like I said, the camp situation and things like that.
The process for the extradition. How when you've made the report to the police. I know the people when they report to the police quite often they think, well that's the first step and I'm going to get justice. You touched on it a little bit earlier on. You had
no idea how long the process would take. Tell us through what was going through in your life while that was going on, and the type of information you were receiving, Because it was you said three years, but by the time time she came back to Australia it was something like twelve years.
Yes, yes, it was three years until her first arrest.
Okay, So the process was warrants had to be taken out and she got arrested. Over in Israel, you would have been notified of that.
So I was working in a new school, So I actually had left the school that I was abused in and went to work in a new school. And it was just early on in that year that all of a sudden, I got this phone call from a reporter that Markel Life was arrested. And my sisters were holidaying away and they weren't even in Melbourne, and I'm frantically trying to call them and say, guys, Michael Life has been arrested.
Like this.
It was huge. It gave me. It was such a shock, but it was also like, why did it happen? No, no one warned us, Like the paper suddenly land on someone's desk and they're like, oh right, we're going to go and arrest her. Was it in relation to the fact that there was some civil cases going on? So suddenly it sparked a memory, Oh okay, we should go
and arrest her. Like I still don't know what caused that first arrest, And then we had some little bit of contact from the prosecutors there in Israel, but very shortly after she was arrested in charge and all that,
she was released on bail. And that was the one mistake that the prosecution team admits to because they weren't in contact with us enough yet to know that we would not want that to happen, that we know what she's like, and that if she escaped Australia, she's definitely going to try and escape anything there to come back. And they released her on bail, and that was a huge pivotal moment.
And did you feel like you've been let down with that? Like, when you've come out, you've done the statement, you're doing everything that, yeah, we say you should do in a situation like that, did you feel like the system had let you down?
I didn't know enough and my sisters didn't either at that time to still not trust in the system. Okay, she's on bail, she'll go to her house, she won't be allowed to leave, she'll turn up the court to the next court date and she will have to say that she is or isn't you know, able to come to Australia. There was no indication that this still would not work and she would be back within six months, right, So that's.
The expectation you had yes, even though she had bailed to granted yes, So why did it takes so long?
That's when the game started.
Yep.
Once she got bailed, there were probably around seventy or more court hearings around her mental fitness to stand trial, and even a judge over there, which is mind boggling. Reported like. He stated that marchal Lifer checks herself into a psych word the day before court hearing and checks herself out the day after. He stated that at one point we had the prosecution team saying we will go to hospital with the court to her. That didn't happen, and then it was just a game of psychiatrists after
psychiatrist saying that she's not mentally well to stand trial. Now, if she's not mentally fit, she can't be extradited and that is their decision to make. So then that's where my sisters and I and my sister does started first to campaign and starts speaking to leaders in Australia and saying,
hang on, what's happening here. We've got to start putting pressure up because if we don't, she's going to keep playing the syste again, not knowing how extensive we would have to fight, and how big the fight would be to actually bring her back.
I'm just I'm sitting here is done because I'm hearing your story, but what you've been through and then the battles break down, the fight. I think I've got a quote here from the ABC about the extradition That was from a Liberal MP, mister south Southwick, and this is twenty seventeen, so this is years down the track. In twenty seventeen, the Liberal MP bought a petition with seventeen thousand signatures calling for the extradition of life to israel politicians.
But mister Southwick said members of the community from all sides of politics are joined together to support the sisters. Doesn't matter who you are and where you come from. When you see the pain and suffering that innocent women have had to go through from a purpose like Malco Lifer, then you do everything possible you can to bring that person to justice. It was became political, you had to like signatures. I'm asking you, from a personal point of view, how did that affect you personally.
We were on a roller coaster that was going so fast and when it dipped, it was so painful, But then it went so fast up again. Every single core hearing. We had people in Israel in the courts live texting us. We had a whole group chat of reporters and everyone that was present telling us what's going on, because of course it was all in a different language that we couldn't even understand even if we could log in, which we couldn't most of the time, and so we would
need translators. And my sisters and I just sat down and I was two thousand and seventeen. I stopped working for the first time in my life. I had been working from eighteen years old, post all my pregnancies, right back to work right after. I didn't have any long maternity leave, and I stopped working in twenty seventeen to be able to campaign and advocate and having gone back to teaching since then. And it was a huge moment,
but I don't even understand how big that was. And I stepped out, and that's when I kind of became public and joined my sisters and we are like, we are going to actually go overseas from our own resources, our own limited money. No one funded us, no one told us what to do. We didn't have a publicist. Everything was completely our own organizing, and we hopped on a plane and went to Israel October twenty seventeen or November,
and we started. We went to rape crisis centers, We went to the Knesseta, and we met with politicians who didn't want to talk to us because it's an uncomfortable topic, but we imposed and made sure they did, and we had someone in there helping us to get into some politicians. We attended events. There was some big event happening then between Autralia and Israel, so we attended that. We side
kind of met the Prime Minister at the time. We just did everything possible for two entire weeks, every day all day, meeting people to raise awareness about this story. We met the prosecution team and we said to them, we think there's something more going on. There's some corruption happening, something's happening in this case. It's not adding up why she's not coming back. And the prosecutor looked at us and he said, if something's happening, like if someone's corrupt,
I'll eat my hat. And then a year later when we went and by then we all found out that the Health Minister was involved in asking the psychiatrist to doctor her her mental health certificates. He looked at us and he's like, I can't believe that happened. I think to myself, if I was in a position of power and I was asked to help someone like that, I couldn't do it. It would go against my whole moral compass.
Like he was, we could see how visibly shocked he was that within a year we had because we went back on our second campaign trip a year later, and he understood that there was corruption going on, that there was something much prosecu.
The prosecutor felt forces.
Well, we felt it, we raised it. They didn't want to believe it. Then when we came a year later, By then the Litzmann story had broken out, and we found out that the Health Minister had been pressuring the psychiatrists who were treating Markolifa to say she was mentally unfit based on their own sort of little dirt story there that was happening, And the psychiatrist said that she was unfit and she wasn't.
How frustrating was that for you guys?
It was validating because we knew who we were talking to, But at the same time, it was horrible how gout someone in power, someone that we met the year before, who claimed he had no knowledge of what was going on with Marcarl Liifa. We met him in parliament, and then we find out that somehow he's involved in the corruption that's stopping her from coming back. I actually, and I can talk about this now because I'm not doing it.
I was thinking of lodging a lawsuit against Slitzman because I didn't feel that the way that the criminal courts dealt with him with a slap on the wrist and a little fine and you can't work anything.
Moore, this was dealt with like it's come out publicly. Yes, what you're talking about.
Yes, he received charges. Some were dropped because I think he pled. It was obstruction of whatever. I don't know what exactly was titled. He had got a fine and he was told he can't work in parliament for seven years.
Okay, So that was and that was.
Finer compared to the incredible impact he had on myself and my sisters, making the delay years longer than it should have been because of his involvement and corruption which is now proven.
Well, I'll join in with you now that it's been in court and it's being proven that's disgraceful. Yes, absolutely disgraceful. And this is a person that you had met the previous twelve months before, with all the false promises, and I'm going to do this.
Well, he didn't, he would do anything. He just said he had no involvement in these kind of matters. He really shut us down, but also made it seem like he doesn't even know what we're talking about, which is obviously not true.
Okay, how did it guess disprove that she wasn't fit to stand?
Well, once the corruption came out and it hit national news all over Israel, that propelled the story to the highest level. I mean, look, that's second in comand you can't actually you can't push that down when someone's that powerful, that high up in government. Then my sisters and I went decided we're actually going to keep going to court. We're going to let this judge see us and look at us in the face, and she cannot possibly see the three of us sitting in the back of a corner.
So we did a third campaign trip. This time someone stepped up and actually funded our tickets, which was amazing. Yeah, that was incredible, But we still played accommodation and travel on everything, and.
That's taking time your life and my kids and.
Life and everything. I've got four children. And we sat in the back of the courtroom and we looked at that judge like, remember, you are dealing with victims here who are sitting here watching you do justice, give justice to the case. But it's for some reason, it seemed like she had to just keep asking for more. And then finally in early twenty twenty, right before COVID hit,
there was the most incredibly important court case. It was when three psychiatrists, three who all said that she's fit to stand trial, were going to be cross examined by the defense, and there were some of them. Israel visiting here and we met him for coffee. He used to live in Australia and he came back, comes back twice a year, and he said would you go? And I looked at my sisters and I was like caught. My husband.
I was like, I'm going to this round three days and my husband was like sure, because he's used to this already. And I hopped on a plane. Tickets were crazy cheap. We didn't know COVID was going to be so bad, but it was like literally under fifteen hundred.
I hopped on a plane by myself, no sisters because they weren't available at the time, and I went and sat in court for two whole days in a language I didn't fully understand, but because it's my story, I could, and I listened to every single word that was said and saw how those psychiatrists were put under the grill by the two defense lawyers who we know who they were. We met them over all the time, and they did theatrics in the court room and they tried to discredit.
One of the psychiatrists was a little bit unwell. She just wasn't feeling so good that morning, but she still gave, you know, she still did a good job. And after two whole days, I was like, Okay, that's it. We're waiting for decision, and I went home. I was feeling very heavy. It was actually very hard to be without my sisters. Like I sat in the partment all day so depressed, but not depressed because the pressed, but just because it was so heavy and so everything was relying
on this. We had waited years till to this point, to twenty twenty to hear what this decision's going to be. It's been seventy five CORET hearings, and the next I got home, spoke to my sisters, debriefed them and everything, and within a couple months, I don't know the exact days offhand, it came through that she's fit to be extradided.
And that was like the penny drop. That was like, oh, my goodness, everything we fought for everything, it is still for me personally, and I don't know about my sisters. When I look at the picture of her on an aeroplane going up those steps and landing on Australian soil, that can literally still I am in shocked at that picture because by that time a lot of people were thinking, it's actually not going to happen, She's not going to
come back. They could see the battle we were fighting, and they could see and we had more and more support from the whole Australian community. But it just seemed that we were fighting that impossible. Yeah, And then it came through that she's fit to stand trial. The judge could not swing it any other way. It was not
possible for some basically into it. But what a battle for what you've been through and then have the battle just to get to the court court matter, and I do remember the image of her getting on the planet. It's an iconic sort of photo, and you just, yeah, it was.
It was so powerful seeing that when you're not involved in it, so I can only imagine what it felt like for you. You mentioned seventy five court matters. Is that how many? Yeah times it appeared at court.
Yeah, yeah, that's how many. And every single one we were involved in, every single one, we had contact. Every single one. We knew when it was a journed because there was a Germans that happened many times. Every single one we debriefed, We spoke to media before or after we met with my sisters. I'll be on holiday like summer for a couple of days away with my kids. I'll drive back from Rye with my sister sitting in her house together doing a court hearing. Didn't matter what
was going on in our lives. We dropped everything to do this court hearing. And actually we had prosecution teams in Israel and in Australia look at us in the face and say, if you had not done what you had done, she would not be back. Well, so to have two teams saying that to us, we know that what we did is what caused her to be able to finally come back.
Well, I was going to make the comment because I see hard investigations that get results, and invariably it's not the police, it's not the prosecutors. It's a family just driving, just driving and pushing and not giving up. And where did you did you know you had that type of resilience or did that it just came out because of the circumstances. Where where did you get that type of resilience? Because I could imagine there would have been times there where you just it's too hard. Why am I focusing
on that? And the focus on that it's time away from your kids, your husband, your professional career.
I think once I gave my statement and that was such a huge step out of anything in my life that I'd ever done adverse to the way I was brought up and raised, there was this tiny flame of the need for justice, and that just burned and got bigger and bigger and bigger over the years. It never ever went down for me personally, absolutely did not. The justice. The thought of justice drove everything. Yeah, absolutely everything.
I'm exhausted from you had delivered. That's just hearing the story.
It was exhausting.
I think I'm fascinated by the drive that victims have got to get justice, and I fully understand it. But full credit to you that you've got to that point. We're going to take a break down because it's still not over, because then this is just the start of it. I often said in homicide or with investigations, it only starts when you get to the court, and we haven't even got to trial. This is just getting the person
to trial. But we'll talk about that, the impact that's had on you, and of course the fact that at the trial that the allegations that you made were she was found not guilty for those how that impacted on you. And we're going to discuss a lot of other things, lessons that you've learned from here and messages that you want to get out because I think it's such an
important story to talk about. As we said at the start, that you know, let's learn from what's happened here, so it makes it harder for these type of I was going to say, so these offenses don't happen again. They will happen again, but let's make it harder for them to happen again, have a shell break, thank you, cheers and