The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with former Victoria and police officer Nile and Australian Federal Police officer Matt.
If you listen to part one, we were talking about an incident that occurred in twenty fourteen where you guys were both stabbed in a terrorist attack that resulted in the person who stabbed you've been shot and killed. Sonia. First of all, welcome back, Thank you and Matt welcome back.
Thank you again, guys.
I put up front. I apologize putting you guys through this. You're talking about an incident that is a heavy incident and you're sitting there bravely. Yeah, it hasn't impacted. But what you described to me, that's a fear that we all have as police officers that we're going to get caught up in an incident like that. And you guys saw it, lived it, and survived it. Can we pick up the podcast from you were in the police station, Matt,
and you've realized the extent of your your injuries. Ambulance have been called and they gave you the happy gas and off to hospital. So we'll leave you there in your happy space there for a bit.
Yep.
Okay, Nah, you've been stabbed and you've just taken the person's life. I haven't, in my experience seing any police officer that doesn't have an impact on Do you want to talk through what was going through your mind after that incident?
Yeah, for sure.
Look in the immediate aftermath of when we're out there at the scene, firearms still drawn. My detective training is preserved this crime scene. So a member of the public who was in one of the residential apartments. He'd heard the gun shot and he came out. He had a mobile phone with him. At the exact same time, one of the AFP acting seam later came out. He had his firearm out and he comes up to me and goes what's happened? And at that sage, I'm thinking it's
pretty obvious, isn't it. So I responded, I've just shot him. And the AFP member that asked where's newman, which I said, that's him, And at that stage I knew I can't. I cannot pass this crime scene over to this member because he's not even on the same level of what we're talking about with this incident. So I then got the AFP MEM to get the phone off the member of the public phone trip low and say two police have been stabbed. I need two ambulances and I need more police resources.
Here.
A young constable comes out from the police station, so I advise him to go inside, get some crime scene tape, and we'll block the road off because at this stage I don't want mum and dad's citizen driving in through the crime scene. Kids looking out the window at a body and a police officer that's just shot them, So that's traumatic itself for a member of the public, so preserving the crime scene was part of it. And then asking the member of the public to go inside get
a blanket, we'll cover the body over. That never happened in regard to the blanket coming out, but the offer was made, and then the young constable asked him to get the personal protection kit and bandage up my injuries. So all while my firearm's still out covering the target, my feet are glued to the spot. I'm seeing blood
dripping onto my foot from my injuries. At stage, I think I'm probably going to die while standing here from the blood loss, but the sense of duty as a detective was to remain there until I can pass this scene off to another detective. Fortunately for me, it was
a couple of minutes later. One of my colleagues who I'd worked with at Parana Task Force was now a Dandenong detective and he turned up and I was telling him where my diary was the name of the offender and said, by the way, he's a terrorists, so we're going to need more resources out here for the bomb response for the vehicle and similar so at that stage, firearms seized place.
You've kicked into police made. The whole thing was police made, but you've kicked into that. What people I don't think appreciate when you're involved in situations like that critical incidence that referred to in policing, that there's an investigation and quite often you feel like, and quite rightly, you've got to be able to justify your actions when someone's been shot and killed. But in instance I've been involved in as an operational police officer, when someone's life has been taken,
you feel like you're a bad guy too. Like it's almost like you've been looked at as a suspect, and it might be subtle, and everyone tries to say the right things, but people look at you and go, what have you done? How did this happen?
I experienced that within about five minutes. Gave that exact theory, and that is in the back of the ambulance. Now I know police procedure. We'll have a police member traveling with me for security but also recording anything that I say. Now, because I was playing clothes, the only thing I had on that represented me as a member of Victoria Police was my lanyard with identification now without asking, the constable in the back of the ambulance with me rip that
lanyard off me. So essentially my attempts is a police officer when that lanyard went was, as you say, I thought, hang on, I'm now being looked at as the crook here, and it's up to me to justify my actions, not the other way around. So yeah, that was a really traumatic experience just having that lanyard ripped away from me in that fashion.
It adds to the trauma, doesn't it. Getting back to you, Matt, we've got you in the ambulance. Now, Nile and your experience at the hospital, did you did you have concerns you were going to die?
I was in a bit of pain in the ambulance and that the I guess the chest wound was a bit unknown, I guess, And you know, I was sort of sucking on the green whistle and you know, so the pain was okay, but then sort of rolling into the or sorry, We're driving along in the ambulance and there was a police constable similar to Nile. You know, issues in the in the recording things that I was saying, and I said, look, you got to call my my wife.
And let her know. And so.
Anyway, so she's made that phone call. And so by the time we rocked into I got into the Alfred, my wife and my sons were there or had were arriving just after I got there. I can't exactly remember, but I was sort of taken into the you know, the emergency department, and and the doctors and nurses all started to you know, to come in and start and start treating me. And and I remember the main doctor there, doctor Helen Sturgio, and and I'm thinking, this is this
is a bit surreal. They're not yelling, They're not it's not bright lights, you know, it's not like you see TV shows are Oh, you know, we gotta do this, got do that. It was the most calm setting that I've ever been in or experienced in relation to suddenly
so horrific. And so I was lying there and remember my wife at the times now my ex wife and my two sons were sort of standing over just to my right, and as I was lying on the trolley of the emergy department, and the doctors were talking, and you know, Helen was standing at the head of the bed and saying, Okay, we've got to look at this, and I came out what we think we're going to we might have to do is open chest surgery. So because they weren't sure about the wound and where it
had gone and whatever. So that was when I sort of got a little bit concerned, because that's a pretty major operation to crack open your ribs and all that sort of stuff. And so my wife at the time and my boys, they were listening to all of this, and I looked over and you know, they're all, well, my wife and my oldest son were in tears, and the youngest one was a bit stole.
But I'll sort of I'll get to that point later.
And and anyway, so they're they're treating and talking to me, but you know, keeping me really calm, and you know, and but so I felt, while I sort of felt Jesus is pretty serious, I felt really just really well looked after, you know, and then the doctors. The doctor's taken the bandage off my head where just where I've been cut down the side here and like I said, there was a small artery just near a temple that
was causing the main sort of bleeding. Anyway, it spurted and hit him in the face, and I was laying there gee sorry mate, and had.
A bit of a giggle at that. And then and then.
Helen had a crack at him because she said, what do you know, get out there now, You've got to be tested, and you know all this sort of stuff because he wasn't wearing a face mask and all that sort of stuff. So you know, a bit of comic relief at times when we were in there. But anyway, anyway, they took me off, did a CT scan and came back and and then I went off to surgery and and they just sort of patched up my eye for the time being and but operated on my shoulder.
And with the eye injury, was there a concern for you, like you'd be thinking what's happened here? Like I disfigured that's going to get my eyesight? Yeah, those thoughts that would go through your mind as well.
I don't know how it didn't, but the knife for somehow went down through my eyebrow, missed my eyelid, and then continued this down here, so it would have missed my eye.
By left sitting here looking wondering whether that you've got the replacement in there. Because I'm looking at the scar, I thinking how did it miss it?
I don't know, just lucky and unlucky situationally, Yes, and I had that surgery and then and see they just sort of patched this up. And then a couple of days later the plastic surgeon operated on the on the facial stuff.
Okay, so trauma, trauma for you, trauma for your family. Yeah, you don't want to see your kids and your wife going through that. Your experience now at the hospital.
Yeah.
So, as I'm in the ambulance about to be taken away, I say to the attending detective, knowing our procedures, someone will knock on a wife's store, and the assumption at nine pm at night, if two polas are knocking on your door is not essentially your husband's dead. So I sent my wife a text message saying I'm okay, thinking that will be seen as a bit of a proof of life from her. I asked the detective to give
her a phone call. As usual, his phone went flat so he couldn't make the phone called to preempt at that police will come around. He's okay those things. So I went to Dandenong hospital, which was about fifteen minutes away from where the incident occurred. And as we spoke about with the lanyard being ripped off, that was really
demoralizing and made you feel like a crook. The one thing that really changed that once I got placed in the emergency ward, Assistant Commissioner Steve Fontana, who was in charge of Crime Command at that stage, came out to my hospital bed in uniform and he was holding my hand and that for me was so reassuring. For that five minutes. There was police from Victoria Police and the
Australian Federal Police in the room. Because we've always spoken about in joint Cauniterrorism Team, it's not about our badge, it's not about our organizations, it's about that team. We had both organizations in that room with me. Was another heartfelt moment. My wife came into the room, We hugged and she had some tears. Spoke to mum and dad on the phone. They live in Country Victoria. They'd been listening to this incident on the radio.
There was some.
Wildly inaccurate reporting about One of the stations reported that potentially Newman had been shot while running into the police station which for Mum and Dad they're thinking, well, he's been shot in the back and the implications that that would bring with it. So there was that. There was another report a couple of days later that I had shot Newman at point blank range in the head while
he's on top of Matt, stabbing him. Obviously inaccurate as well, and makes my professionalism brings that into account as what my response is. In the ambulance, the AMBO says to me, have you got any more stab wounds anywhere else? Which made my heart beat a little bit faster, thinking shit, I actually don't know. So I lift up my shirt and thankfully there was no wounds there. And I told the MBO that I'm a positive, which freaked him out and I said no, no, that's my blood type, thinking that
I might need blood to replace it. So taken, Dan Andong had two nights in there. My initial reactions while I was in the bed, the two things I wanted to know was what did the public think about my actions out here tonight? And what does Victoria Police think about my actions? Those were the two things closest to
my mind. My phone was going off with messages from colleagues of support, which, as you know, Gary and policing, is very rare until your retirement date that you actually get validation of how much valued you are and appreciated. So my phone was receiving a lot of messages, so I'd be in between having doctors come in reading some messages, crying away at such lovely messages the next day, and myself and Matt obviously couldn't speak to each other until
we've given our statements to homicide. So I wanted to know how Matt was going. I'm sure he wanted to know how I was going as well.
Yeah, on that, And this is where a couple of things that you've been through this incident. I'm sitting here watching you guys talk about it, and your concern is not thankfully I survived or Matt survived, I do the right thing? How will people? And it's just ingrained into police, isn't it. You feel like you're going to be to blame and the fact you too, and I always struggled with this when I was leading critical investigations. You two have been caught up in this incident that clearly you
want to talk about for emotional support. You've just been through something and you have to the people separated and that's hard, isn't it. And it makes you feel like you've done something wrong why we've been separated, And that's in police shootings. That's just the nature of the way they're investigating and saying that. I think we all sit
here and we understand the need for accountability. It has to be, but it's just another layer of the things that you go through when you've been involved in a critical incident like this.
Yeah, you're right.
So as well as having my clothing sees for blessed testing in regard to it with gunshot residue, it was also one of my detective sergeant Tony Mars. He'd started
leave the day before. He came in and stayed at my hospital for two days, didn't go home, and he'd come into my room and all I wanted to do was to talk about it, and of course he would have had to have recorded in his own book anything I said, so he had to get me onto another topic straight away, which all I wanted to do was to be able to speak to police Welfare, which I did. The Chief commissioner at the time, Ken Leigh, came to
see me. The AFP Commissioner at the time was Andrew Colvin, and the commissioner came into my room and spoke to me one on one and I remember saying to him, Boss, you know I'm not one of yours, and he goes, I know that, but you'll be treated like one. And so whatever Victoria Police offered to me, the AFP also offered the exact same thing, whether it was chaplaincy wellbeing services, so really well supported by both organizations in the immediate aftermath.
And then seeing after I gave me a statement, I was checking the media of the time and Luke Cornelius, the Assistant Commissioner at the time of Southern Metro Region where it occurred, he was there saying it's clearly obvious that two members have been attacked and they've defended themselves self defense rah rah, which is to be essentially.
Cleared on the night.
Is very unusual in regard to that.
Is definitely normally police won't come out and make a comments.
Absolutely so again that provided me with some comfort to know that I'd had the immediate backing from Victoria Police command. But also the next morning there were some flowers that had turned up in my hospital bed from a member of the public and with some really nice sentiments. So the two questions that were burning in my brain about how does the public feel, well it was answered with the flowers, And how does Victoria police feel? That was answered with a press conference.
Matt, how long were you in the hospital for your recovery?
I was in there for a week, got out on I think the Monday, and gave my statement I think on the Saturday, which was actually AFL Grand Final Day.
And then does anyone care because you're a paramount supported like you made them come and get a statement on AFL Grand Final Day.
Them, Yeah, maybe it was actually morning. So but the funny thing actually was that Professor Mark Fitzgerald, who's in charge of the sort of the trauma area of the Alfred and very highly respected. I had a great deal to do with him. He would come and check on me and and and this sort of thing. And he said, oh, you know what your plans for you know, what do you want to do on Grand Final Day? And I said, well,
I got this crappy TV up here and whatever. Anyway, so Grand Final morning, a you know, a Sony Bravia TV comes in into the room and gets set up and you know, because the family were coming in and we were going to watch that we were going to watch the Grand Final that afternoon, you know, just as you know, you know, sort of a bit of a
get together. And yeah, but that morning I gave my statement and then Nile and his family came in and I my mum and dad were there, and you know, they'd come down from New South Wales and and I remember Nile coming into the room and like we said, we hadn't spoken, and and and I think Dad shook Nile's hand, and Mom gave my hug and then they Mum said comments, and so they all sort of went out, and I just remember Noel and I had just given each other a massive hug, and you know that's I
guess it was really reassuring that you know, we had then we sort of had that now well we've had that bond. And you know it's also I say, you know, we're sort of half blood brothers because he got stabbed in the arm and I got so I got some of his blood, but.
He never got any of mine. So so.
But yeah, that that morning was you know, it was really nice for I think my parents to meet Nile and his family. And and just you know, put put name to face and actually meet you know, the person who you know, you know you saved my life. During that week I sort of go back a bit. I was having nightmares or not nightmares. I was replaying the attack over and over and over while I slept, and it was like a video just going over and over and over.
And the Alfred.
PS psychiatrist came in and was speaking to me about, you know, how I was going and whatever. I said, oh, look, this is happening. And he said, have you given a statement? And I said no, no, that's happening on Saturday. And he said, well, I think after you've given your statement, you won't you won't be dreaming about this.
And I thought that's a crock.
Anyway, did a statement, what's the footy, you know on Saturday? And then after that it's the dreams stopped.
So it was that I guess the.
Concern of am I going to get this right in my you know, I'm going to say something wrong that's going to.
I would imagine your second guessing yourself too. Should have we done? And that's that's the unfair part. We've not the unfair part. And I keep clarifying that we've got to be accountable. But the questions are, well, should have you gone out more tactical? Should have you done this? Should have you done that? And there's a lot of naysayers in there that trying to poke holes in everything that you've done, and you would know that someone's died,
you're going to go for a coronial inquest. We'll get on to that, but I just see when you talking about it like, it digs up still the raw emotions and we're talking ten years ago. No, how does it feel you sitting here with Matt saying you've saved his life?
Yeah?
Look, this is always the emotional part of when we speak around it, that hospital meeting, hearing those words. I've heard it from Matt's dad before, thanks for saving them, my boy.
I've heard it from one of Matt's best mates.
It gets me every time because it's a responsibility that once you're a police officer and you're out on a job, you will do anything to save your own colleagues life, irrespective of how long you've worked with them for it. Good has to beat evil every single day in regard to it. So there's a lot of phrases within policing and labels that have put on people. But to have a comment like that that I've saved someone's life is
words can't describe it. But I also throw back that Matt saved my life life too is in saying those words. Knife gave me the time and the opportunity to do what I needed to do and that of course absorbed a ferocious attack and we're only talking seconds, but that was enough for me to be able to then save his life by him taking on hater hand on hand.
Essentially, it's heavy, guys, but you know when the when the chips were down, you both did what you had to do. So yeah, like full credit to well, always think how are you going to react in the situation If you had that and you'd like to think I'm going to do this and going to do that, you don't know until it happens, and you did. You both did your duties.
Yeah, and you don't know how you're going to react either, Like you know, you do your training and you think, oh, yeah, if something happened, I would just do this, this and this. You know, you don't know how your your body is going to naturally react, like you know, you know the
fine motor skills and in everything like that. And I think, you know, you know all the reporting, you know, the CCTV foot he shows us walking out and then me coming back in, and that was seventy five seconds, But the attack itself was like twelve seconds.
From the time that I.
Was stabbed to the time that hater was shot, it felt so much longer, and time slowed down, you know, And we were talking about it and describing it before, you know, probably over fifteen to twenty minutes, however long it took to describe. But from that, like I said, you know that twelve seconds, it's two breaths, Yeah, you know, two deep breaths, and you're you're that's it.
It's almost things yet have occurred.
And that you know that twelve seconds, And I think the coroner said it in his findings. You know, our lives have been changed immeasurably, and from that small amount of time it would certainly have.
That's dramatic.
There's another thing I wanted to raise, and I'm not raising it because I'm raising it because I was reading up about this incident and the comments that were attributed to you guys that you've also got empathy for the family. Haters family, Yeah, it's you did what you had to do. It was your duty. And I would also say you probably if it wasn't you too, it could have been someone else in the situation might have been worse. So, yeah,
you did what you had to do. But you're not sitting here full of bravado.
Game.
Well, this was a great day of policing. You've got thoughts for the family.
Yeah, definitely.
You know, they, like we said, lovely family, invited us into their home, spoke freely and openly about about newman and their concerns about him. And you could see that the love that they had for him just through you know, through those concerns and how much they cared, like it wasn't this. It wasn't you know, for one of a better term, a typical crook family where everyone was against the police.
They were pro police, they.
Were they were wanting their son, they wanted him not to be radicalized, they wanted him to continue on.
And you know.
When they're and and I think I don't think a lot of people sort of give them that much thought, but you know, they are victims in this as much as as anyone else is. And you know they've lost you know, while we're fortunate to be to be alive and to be with our families and not saying that we haven't had our psychological issues, but you know where you know, we're here now and you know we've we can hold our loved ones and be with them. You know, they lost a son that night, and it wasn't anything
that they did. It was just the process that that radicalization process that that newman went through, and you know, and they.
They paid, They paid the price.
Also feel yeah, absolutely, Garry, I look at this one and go, it would have been nice if there was a different outcome and they could visit their son in prison every weekend or whatever it is like others get to do. But as Matt said, them for their family unit that broke up that night, the father, we know, he inquired about our welfare and hope hopefully we were recovering. And yeah, it does exactly right. And I've said it previously.
I'd love to meet the family one day in regard to it and provide any context or clarity that they needed to because with the cranial processes, you know, it's very much each organization has their own ideas on how it transpired, and they don't want negative findings held against them, so sometimes, well all the time, it's quite emotionally overwhelming. So if we could sit with them and fill them in with any details they needed to know, that'd be great as well.
The fact that they put the offer out whether they take the offer up is a choice for themselves, but it says a lot about you guys that you would sit down and have a chat. It frustrates me the people that radicalize these impressionable young men. It's a shame we can't keep go after the people that do that because the impact is at eighteen, you don't know what the world's about, do you, And you have someone putting thoughts in your head and the young bloke that Curtis
Chain shooting up there at New South Wales police headquarters. Yeah, it's a terrible thing. How long after this incident did the cranial inquest take place? Because there's pressure there because you've got your statements get presented to the coroner. Corona makes a determination into the manner and cause of death and recommendations if there's police practices and procedures could have been done something differently, So again, you're under scrutiny there.
It's not a case of you're going in there and everyone's clapping you. You're going in there, could have you done this? And a lot of naysayers, and you bring in the legal intellects that come in and go, well, why didn't you do this and why didn't you do that? How was your experience in the coroner's inquest.
Yeah, you're right with that, Gary, So with the cranial because it was terrorism, the current wanted to hear this matter as soon as possible, So I think it was
around eighteen months after the shooting. I think it was around April sixteen March six sixteen, so and again we've spoken about accountability transparency, So I looked at all my training within Victoria Police that led me to that point to make sure I didn't have any blind spots that I knew how I was communicating with a youth, for example,
what my strategies were, investigation plans. So there was a lot of fanatical work to make sure I could present the best evidence I could for the coronial because it is about discovering the truth of the death and how do we prevent these occurring? Now, terrorism in twenty fourteen with Matt spoke of we were previously investigating foreign fighters going offshore and now we were seeing homegrown terrorism where
targets in Australia were being attacked. So this really needed to look at radicalization, how it was occurring, what can be done to stop that or slow that. So it took took that March twenty sixteen period. Now at that stage one of my very good mates, Steve Cooper and inspector with Victoria Police, we took up running together because I thought, I don't want to be not in a position to present the best evidence I can. If my brain says to me stop, then I'm going to fall over.
I lose, my family lose, policing losers, my mates lose. So I'm going to run. I'm going to try in my brain that it will only stop when I say to So we started running, lost a lot of weight and the mental strength that came from running was really important for the cranial process. Is if there was anything negative, I could then go for a run and get the endorphins naturally from that. Compared to having a chocolate bar or a.
Beer or whatever.
It is a huge benefit.
Absolutely so form Matt gave evidence before me, and then I came into the box on a Thursday night at about three pm, got my statement out. I read that that was a real emotional time. I'd read my statement hundreds of times with no emotion, and then when I physically read it to the court there was a couple of times I broke down because it was just so the enormity of the situation is a cronile, there's a family of a deceased.
There person that you've shot and.
Killed exactly right, and the expectations of the Commonwealth and the state in regard to our training and evidence to be given. So it got adjourned at four pm. So I'd given our evidence for one hour and then had to go home that night and sleep and then prepare for the next day. And I felt like a night
watchman in cricket. Essentially had been bombarded for an hour and then had to sleep on it overnight until coming back in the evidence in itself, having given evidence in all the courts, it was okay, but it was a relief to be able to finally stand down from the box knowing that everything we'd experience had been spoken of and given to the courts for them to make determinations. Absolutely, but that really is the key to what we do.
Yeah, yeah, that your experience giving evidence.
Yeah, it was a bit.
It was leading up to it. I was, you know, just in my own head, you know, about how is this going to go? And I think the psychological pressure of what was coming up in relation to the inquest really really really got to me. And I was probably the worst person in the world a bit well, I know, I was probably one of the worst persons in the world to be around. I was just angry, and you know, I'd yell at the I yell at my kids just you know, for them breathing wrong and this sort of thing.
So I was sort of this is sort of this January February, you know, it's leading up you know, reading my statement, talking to lawyers, you know, thinking about what's going to happen at the inquest, how are they going to what are they going to ask, you know, how they going to portray me and all this sort of stuff, and you know, and to the point where my marriage ended around the same sort of time. Yeah, and look at it, it was just it wasn't a planned thing
to happen at that time. But you know, you know, anyway, at my marriage ended, you know, and I was just I was so that that had happened, and going into the inquest, so it was all this, you know, It was just I was just in my o head and
you know. And then when I when I gave evidence, you know, we did it remotely because there was a bit of security of some security concerns about it, and so that was a bit sort of surreal, and only the I think the coroner and the conner's assistant could see us on the on the video screen and you know, and so I guess in a sense it it was a bit of a relief to be remote, not being in the room and just having everyone staring at you and you know and looking around and seeing the family,
so you're a bit more removed. So that was probably not a bad thing, but it was still pretty intense. And I remember that around that time when I was, like I said, I was just angry, angry, angry, angry person. And I said, before you know, my youngest son was in the hospital room next to my oldests and Make's wife, and he was just emotionless, and I said, that's a bit weird. It was a couple of months later that I spoke to him and I said, I think he was probably so fourteen.
He was probably twelve. He was twelve at the time of the attack.
And I said, you know what, I remember being in the emergency room and you were standing there just emotionless, and he said, I didn't want to cry because I didn't want to upset you. That sort of stuck with me, and I went, how does a twelve year old, you know,
come to this? And then leading up to the inquest, when I was angry and you know, this was sort of happening, and I walk in one day and there's a note, a little post it note on the kitchen bench with a paperweight, and it was it said, did Dad, no matter how angry you get, I will still love you and signed my son and you know, and yeah, and you think, you know, what is he? What have I done to you know, to all you people? And it took me quite a long time to realize that they,
my family lived the attack with me. Other than the attack itself, they were in the hospital room. Until now they they they seem ups and downs, and I mean there's less downs now, but you know, during that initial time and it was really hard on them. And I think, yeah, there was, and you know, we'll probably talk about what happened later on, but it was. Yeah, the inquest was was pretty pretty tough mentally for me, and and then leading into the you know, to the findings, it was.
Still yeah, still had been in policing long enough to know you can't really anticipate how the court's going to find that. Look, you look at one thing and it will come out come out different. I'm sorry you've gone through that. That's that's heavy stuff. And with your kids and you don't want to bring you bring your work home and you think you're protecting them and really haven't protected them at all. Over there exposed to a lot of it. But yeah, I'm sorry, Sorry you went through that.
And just I think what's coming across speaking to you two guys is that you survived the incident. It should be on the movies, it's high fives and everyone goes out for a drink and yeah, look we've done our job. But it doesn't play out that way in real life, does it. The emotional impact that they had on relationships for you and your your your life, it's.
Yeah, I concur with Matt. It's being in the center of that incident. It was like being the eye of a storm. Essentially. It's calm enough for us while we're in it, but the impact is being felt for our immediate families and the broader policing communities as well, and the clubs and associations were involved in so there's a
significant impact. And to this day I'll still get people come up to me and say, oh, by the way, I did such and such in your in your incident, and those stories come out slowly in regard to it. After the cronial, myself and Matten, some of our colleagues from Victoria Police and the Federal Police. On the Sunday of the cronile finishing, we running the Herald Sun Run for the kids, sixteen kilometers and we managed to get that done. And after that I felt the need to
run stopped as I'd given them evidence. My brain was trained to do that. But after the cranial had finished, I remember speaking to Joe Garzis, he was the Victoria Police psychologist in the peer Support unit, and he goes, well, now that the cranials ended, and yes, they'll be finding sound the track, but you'll feel like a part of you is gone, is you're no longer focusing on that incident, so you need to find something else to focus on.
So for me, when you go through a critical incident, it brings you to the crossroads of your well being. What direction do I take from here? And for me, I thought, well, if I can be promoted, I'll put my heart and soul into policing even more because of the awakening of a police shooting. I want to make sure that my police colleagues are safe, that they're trained appropriately, that they're briefed according to the risk, the risk factors
are known and disseminated. So for me, this created real opportunity to throw back in and give back to policing of the experience. So I spoke within policing to peer support, to the people about the benefits of our training on that night and one word saved our lives the A and Z CANA Terrorism tach Commander's course. So giving back in all these different units within policing to say that yes, we can go through these incidences, we can survive, we
can grow with it. But by working so hard and being so driven in my work, that leads to burn out and everything else that comes with that, where you're just so focused that you lose sight of the glimmers of the sunshine, happy moments with family because you're just so focused and driven about.
What your job is.
So for me, I certainly struggle to then go back into normal uniform policing where you're seeing gaps. You're seeing gaps where there needs to be something put in place, and the poor police members I was working with were oblivious to those gaps. So for me, I felt the obligation too. It's my job to make sure they're appropriately trained and protected. So in essence, that is a thankless task and it's one that we're probably never ever going
to win. So I'd bit no off a challenge that I had no chance of absolutely, and as a result, that's exactly what it did. From a professional perspective, that's destroyed me. By having minimal people within policing checking in on me, I was the one doing the checking in on everyone else, making sure right they're okay, with no one actually saying, hey, are you pretty strong and resilient? How are you going? Those conversations just weren't happening in policing,
And unfortunately, nowadays I still don't think they're occurring. Hence so many injuries that are occurring. And in July this year, a couple of my very good policing mates who have been involved in a high profile shit, they've been l hell three tired themselves. So there's some issues there around how we support our members that have been through these credits.
I've got the sense in speaking to your militant's probably a too strong a word, but you had that strong take on looking after members and after what you've been through, you've got a right to offer opinions on that. Then I can understand where your channeled your energies in there. But if you fight town hall it can be pretty sold destroying too. Yeah, if you take it on. I neglected to ask what was the findings from the corona when the coroner's findings were handed down.
I think it was like fifty six pages of.
Findings and believe it or not, not one recommendation.
Yeah.
Yeah, So, like he said, you know, so i'd come back from p ANDNG I was posted over to Port Moresby with the AFP and I flew back for the handing down of the findings and we were in the AFP headquarters in La Trobe Street at the time, watching it remotely, and there was a few of us in there, people we'd worked with, and my dad had actually flown down and you know, to be there with me, and we were sitting there and you know, he read through, you know, and then he said, you know, and you know,
because you know, like you said before, it's in your head. Have they sat down for the last This was July or June or July twenty seventeen, so this is almost three years later. So he's sitting there. I'm sitting there thinking, Okay, they've had almost three years to go through this shooting with a fine tooth comb. Are they going to pick something out and go you did wrong? You're going to
be charged. So knowing like it was in my heart on you we had done nothing wrong, but in my head on overthinking stuff and you know, just you know, because you hear of you hear of it often that the cheral will make some sort of finding about the police actions and whatever. And I was I remember sitting there and we're in the room and he said, I pretty sort of paraphrasing, but you know, I can't find
any issues with the police risk assessment that day. You know, I'd like to wish my condolences to the family and especially Officers A and B, whose lives have been changed immeasurably. And then he and he, he said that there was nothing that he could find that we were in the clear.
I guess for what we did.
And and when he said that, I just turned him my dad and hugged him and cried. It was it was a massive moment and a huge sense of relief that we didn't do anything wrong.
Again, I get back to the fact that the way that you've explained it and every step that you take seemed to me, from a police officer's point of view, perfectly reasonable. And you guys would have known that too, your experienced police officers at the time. But you go through all this trauma thinking that there's going to be criticism of you in regardless of your actions, or you shouldn't have done this, or why didn't you do that? And I don't know why we've got that mindset in
the police, but I understand where you're coming from. And any time I've been involved in incidence, you're thinking, what are they going to find we've done something wrong? It seems to be a cultural cultural thing.
Certainly with ours, there was some potential criticism about the location of the meat, was appropriate, was there enough lighting? As you know, within policing we work in all sorts of conditions in all those sees.
Let's zero on next, because that would be the type of things that would really give me the shits with it. You've done really well to actually get him to a meeting, Like you could have spent two weeks looking for him, but you've managed to taking controlled risks, make the phone call there, take it, and then if people sit back not involved in it, go well, why didn't you do this?
Or why couldn't you have waited till the next day? Well, the next day he might have turned up little things like that, the other things that irk me when you get scrutinized on jobs. Absolutely, but you're making operational decisions
in real time, like that phone call. Once he picked up the phone, you had five minutes basically to think, Okay, how are we going to do this, whereas someone reviewing it, as you said, could have three months to review it and go, well, perhaps they should have made the appointment for a later time.
You Yeah, and highsight's a wonderful thing in that I know that there were evidence was given by a senior police that if all the information had been known and available to us, we wouldn't have met with him. So that was where I was talking about that internet, that lack of intelligence flow from AZO to the AFP and Big Pole, and you know it's and you sort of look at that and go talking about the inquest, you know, leading up to it and after the attack, And I
was self doubting myself. You know, why why didn't I control the going? Why didn't I try and control the knife? Why didn't I Why didn't I do this? Why didn't I do that? Why did I?
Say? Yeah?
Like, you're right, you just you're self critiquing yourself, but in a negative way, so it putting more pressure on yourself, more pressure and more pressure.
It's now ten years after the incident. How are you guys now in your quiet moments? Is it's still something that lives with you every day?
Yes? And no?
Like the like, I don't think of the the attack itself every day. I don't think they sort of reminded. You just look in the mirror, you doing your hair or whatever, and you see the scar.
I don't know because I don't look in the.
I do it very very very brief or have a shave or something. But yeah, you just sort of it's there, like it's a it's a concert minded not that you think about it all the time, but it's it is, it is, it is there for me. And but saying that, you know, like I've you know, I've gone through a lot of you know, psychological trauma over the last ten years in relation to PTSD and you know, suicidal thoughts
and and and those sort of things. But you know, now you know with a and I know the term gets thrown around quite regularly that this post traumatic growth and I've certainly experienced that, and it's it's changed the way that I am. I'm not saying, you know, I'm not perfect, and you asked my fiance and sure say no, no,
he's not perfect. But without her and you know, your family being around to support you and and them seeing them seeing that growth, that's that's probably been one of the biggest things over the last probably since twenty and eighteen, so the last you know, eight years, slowly but surely, and then certainly over the last five years, just being able to be a better person, and I've said it.
I said it, you know recently. You know, I never used to tell my kids that I really that I love them, or you know, I speak to my mom and dad on the phone and I never say I love you or my sister or my brother or and now it's whether my boys want to hear it after
a phone call or you know, saying good night. You know, it's like, you know, I love you, and and you get it back most of the time, and you know, and you say it to your mum and you just know that, and my partner and you know, it's something that it was a terrible situation and a terrible time, you know, the attack, the inquest and then the findings and then going through that PTSD and the down and
the dark and the everything that goes with that. But you know, I think we've spoken about it, Nola and I and we wouldn't change. I don't think we would change being involved in the attack, because without it, it wouldn't have made me the person I am today.
I get to the opportunity of speaking to a lot of people who have been through some serious stuff in the vein of what you've been through, and that I think, Yeah, as you said, life can be fleeingly short. So you're telling your kids you love them or thinking about things and you don't sweat little things as much because yeah, because yeah, you realize how tenuous life can be. What about the impact that it's had on you team?
Unlike Matt, I've got an eleven year old daughter, say, I've got no chance of her telling me that she loves me, So that LEU will occur in another twenty years time.
We'll have you back in five years time.
And how you went exactly same as Matt. So I was diagnosed with PTSD and other conditions in twenty twenty one, so I'd ignored a lot of symptoms and thinking again, we're in policing, we're all struggling from different things that we see and experience. So for me, actually getting diagnosed and treatment plans and then support is absolutely key to it. So one of the things, and it's a pretty simple step.
But my psychologist, Fairly Morgan, she put me onto a book written by a doctor John Arden, which talks about the five good steps of mental health, which is sleep, exercise, education, diet, and social support. Now I don't do all of those very well. Each day, but it is a task to try and tick as many of those off as possible. Give your framework absolutely, which I look at it the
acronym of seeds. It's pretty simple. But then having the time now being ill health retired from policing to actually catch up with people that you want to to actually engage with them in a stress free setting where you're not making life or death decisions is good for me. But I agree with Matt there is also growth because we've met some exceptional people along the way, other police
who have been involved in shootings. We're both members of the Australian Bravery Association, and there's an incredible group of people that have been from police, military emergency services and civilians, people fighting sharks, people Daryl Tree from South Australia with a Cross a Valor Award for saving a father and son being electrocuted like these are amazing acts of courage and gallantry that we're proud to be a part of it.
And with those like minded people there's absolute strength that comes from it as well, where we don't sit there and talk about our incidences, but we talk about the good things in life and what next week look like, What are we looking forward to. So there's a real lot of positive issues that come from that shooting. Six hundred and fifty million dollars federally was allocated towards counter terrorism. After the shooting and the cafe siege, meta data retention
laws change as a result. So if our incident had just been a stop, go incident and move on, then you look at it and go, we lost. But the legacy that came out of that is really significant. Matt's done public speaking and.
Who was it?
Was it Matt that the UN Yeah, Matt un Congress A Victims of Terrorism yep. I made a note there that sounds like a pretty big deal. Tell us about that.
Yeah, well that was in twenty twenty two and I was having some troubles at work at the time, as in PTSD needing to move and I was actually on sick leave in that August, and I've got a phone call from Evon Crazy, who's one of the AFP. She's a PILO Field of vest Ago over the aison officer,
so she was in charge that area. But I'd had something to do with her, and she said, you know, do you want to do you want to come on this come to New York and you know, you go to that the Congress of Victims of Terrorism, and it was like, oh, yes, that'd be awesome. And anyway, so I sort of got back to work and we went over early September. I was late September because it was the twenty first anniversary of the September eleventh attacks. When we were there and you know, had the opportunity to
to address the Congress. And it's only a short time, three minutes, but it was nice to be able to put you know, relay by and Nile's experiences around the attack, but also how our work had affected us and and that sort of thing. And while it was only three minutes, I think I got the point across, you know, but saying that, I got back to work and you know, thinking, you know, this is wow. You know, I spoke at the U n you know, there was all these people
there and how how cool is this? And you know I got back to work and there was crickets and you know, I think the only comment I got was
how was your junket? And I'm thinking I wouldn't have been on this trip if I hadn't been almost killed, you know, eight years ago or whenever what was and you know, so it just left this you know, this dirty sort of taste in my mouth, and and then you know, sort of some other things that work happened, and I was you know, it was just it was sort of almost the last straw, I guess, and that's been off work, you know, two years this month.
Yeah, okay, I don't know. Like those little comments like that, it speaks to the culture of a lot of police organizations, just the negative they drag, drag you down, like the junket, how is the junket? Like people should have been going really proud of you. That must have been a great experience and how much how different would that make you feel than how is your junket? There's a cynicism in organizations. It's quite quite frustrating.
And you said before, you know, you know, you answer it the little things, but the little things can make a.
Mass difference, adds up, adds up.
So that little comment, as well as other things, you know, just it just and when you've got PTSD, things like that are magnified enormously.
So yeah, just yeah, I guess it.
Hurt And yeah, okay, no, I think when you explain it that way, I can understand that you come come back, you're proud, and then you just drag back down in the in the world. No. Twenty nineteen, you've got to present the match day football Hawthorn versus Collingwood game. Yeah, that was after getting the Bravery Award and different things you wanted to tell us.
Yeah, that's right.
So myself and matter received common Off Bravery Medals, the Australian Federal Police Bravery Medal, and I was lucky enough to receive the Victoria Police Valor Awards. So Chief Commissioner Graham Ashton he nominated me for the Emergency Services Person of the Year. So as a result of that, presenting the match day football to the umpires at the MCG on a Friday night, the Hawthorne Collingwood game sixty five
thousand people in police uniform. Which is really incredible to see the recognition for emergency services workers, not just myself, but for all of us, recognizing the work that we do. So really proud moment to be there and being part of that.
Okay, well look guys, I think we might wrap it up on this note. I want to say the way that you've articulated your journey that you've been through and the experience and the way that you're looking at policing and what it's done. I want to thank you for the services that you've done. And I don't say that lightly. I sit here, I know the price that you guys have paid, and you've paid in a bit big way.
But you should be proud of proud of what you did, and you've been tested at that's real sharp end and no one knows how they're going to react in the way that you guys reacted.
You should be should be proud of.
So hope best for the future and stay stay positive and thanks for coming on. I catch killers.
Thanks Gary, Thanks Gary, appreciate your buying as you thank you. Cheers.
Guys. Just goes to show, doesn't it that people that are involved in an instance like that that has a profound and long term.
Effect on it.
I really appreciated both Nyall and Matt coming on and sharing their experience in the heavy situation they found themselves in
That they managed to find a way out, which is impressive.