The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Detective see aside of life.
The average person is never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and
language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. When things gather shit, a special operations group is who you turn to, from bomb disposal to taking down the most dangerous violent criminals. These are the cops who are sent in when everything is on the line, there is no room for failure. Retired Victorian cop John Taylor spent thirty four years working
in the SAG and the Bomb Response Unit. He's a genuine tough guy. I had a great chat with John about his time in the SAG and you get an understanding of what it takes to stop violence before it explodes.
John Taylor, Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Thanks Garry, thanks for asking me. It's fantastic.
Well, I'm going to say up front, full credit to you with the area in which you worked in tactical policing and the bomb response unit. That's a sharp end of policing and you did it for a hell of a long time. So yeah, full credit.
To be honest. It's though, really enjoyed it, Gary. You know, I've mentioned other people in my career was nearly thirty four years, and it's been about thirty two of those in a special operations group or under it, and it feels like only five years. So obviously I enjoyed my work.
Well, it's good to see someone come out after what thirty four years in the cops and come out with a smile on your face and still intact physically, mentally and emotionally.
Wellfem I argue about that one, but yeah, yeah. Originally I did ten years as a graphic artist screenprint. When I left school, you know, I tried to get into the police force and finally got there, and my dream came true and then yeah, moved on to a specialist area. And I have no regrets, you know, seeing things like you yourself, you know that other people fortunately don't see. But that's part of the job. That's what I accepted and did my duty.
Well, I reading your book through Fear and Fire. In one of the pictures, you're saying, I can't believe I get paid for doing this, and that that was the attitude I had in the cops. There was some adventures and some things that I got to experience and what they also pay you like, I'd pay to do some of the experiences myself.
So it was a common thing we used to talk about. You know, get hanging under a helicopter had been extracted from a drug crop, and you're thinking, you know, there's a a couple of dolls with the all cover, I'm under a rape, I'm looking the forest below me, and that it was like a joy ride, you know, like we'd say that the guys whoere everyone's saying, I can't believe we're getting paid to do this stuff. You know,
it's you know, there's dangerous. Maybe that goes with it, but you know you can't get the smile of your base. I'm sure you know you've been in some circumstances like that. It's not just unbelievable.
Most definitely, I get what you're talking about. The other thing, in the policing world, the perception of tactical police is like, you guys are robots, and yeah, you get called out when shit hits a fan and to siegers, arresting high risk offenders, all sorts of things when the other police haven't got the skills training to respond to the situations.
I think we should dispel that because in my dealings with tactical police and my involvement in the tactical police, it's very much there's a human side of it, isn't it that people don't understand it.
Look, we're normal police officers, and we've just been trained a bit more in specialist areas, and we have better equipment, and as you mentioned, we as a tactical police officers you can't afford to fail. Now we are the last resort. We can't say this is too hard and move aside and let someone else go in. So, you know, and we have the human side, As you said, we're just normal people. We see a lot of things that We're
glad other people don't see. We dealt with a lot of people that you wouldn't believe their beliefs and what they've done. You know, it's surprising and quite disturbing in some ways, and we have feelings like everybody else. When it comes down to it.
You touch on the point there and I very much felt it in when I do this a comment to the tou When you're the team, you're the team there. Whatever happens, there's no one else to respond except you, guys.
Yeah, and that's basically and as you know that, we'll have a plan A, that we already have a Plan B and a Plan C, and then we'll limnify as a Plan D if it's required. The there's always forward motion, there's no backward steps when it comes down to it.
Well, I spent most of my career in criminal investigations detectives, but I also spent a lot in the tactical side of policing as well. There's a friendly rivalry and a bit of a bit of perception that the tactical guys that are knuckle draggers. I think that was a term we use in New South Wales and the tactical blokes that you're the soft pen pushes in regards to the detectives. But I just want to say this and tell me
if you think I'm on the right track. I spent many a time with the tactical police, and I think the training, the professionalism is not fully appreciated. The training is intense because if you make a mistake, the consequences are devastating.
But some of the.
Briefings and debriefings I've been to with tactical police head and shoulders above, briefings with detectives, would you agree on that that without the shipbagging detectives because I'll have to defend them. But there is a there is a professionalism that needs to come with tactical policing.
Definitely, and like we had that rivalry with the textis but it's done with great respect, you know, and any operation, some of these operations can go for four or five months, and those detectives are doing the hard hours, everything all lining it up for us to do that tactical arrest at the end. They're the ones that actually do the hard work that goes with it. So we find like tactically, you know, with briefings and things like that. They've got
to be done correct. It's not all walking into room
and having a two minute briefing. We'll do reconnaissance on the information we get from the investigators, and those reconnaissance would be looking at the offender's address or if they're going to do an armed robbery, looking the places are going to rob So lots of hours go into it, and it's got to be very succinct and very well planned, and then it has to go before our senior sergeant, and then it has to go before our inspector, and then we'll do a massive briefing that might go for an hour.
You're told what you'll be doing, but you've got to be able to improvise if it doesn't go that way, and it has to be proved by our bosses who are happy with the plan that we put forward, and
then we go ahead and do the job. And yeah, we like to term knuckle draggers and stuff like that, but we know it's done with a sense of humor from the investigators and like we've drunk a lot of beers with them and we've had a lot of fun and maybe occasionally you can't do with these as we kid that the few and you had a bit of fun with them, and that they're done the same with us. So you know, boys will be boys, girls will be girls. You know, they're just going to had that sense of humor,
but they've got to have the specialism. When it comes down to a job, all fun stops and the planning goes ahead.
And I also think, and this is a misconception, and I think I've been fortunate because I've seen both sides of it too. Some of the most intellectual stimulating conversations
I've had. But its sitting in the back of the dove or the van, waiting to arrest the fen that might turn up in the next state hours and the conversations you have, Like people think it's one dimensional tactical policing, but there's a lot of people that are deep thinkers and the philosophers and all sorts of things I've found in tactical police.
I think the best thing I enjoyed about my job is a team environment, very team orientated and like like a family. Basically, they're watching your back. You know, you can do like a forced entry into our house where you might be number one going through that door, knowing that there's an armed defender, I don't have to turn around and know I know they're behind me. I don't have to look make sure they're there. And that's the
way it is. So you had the conversations in a car or a location before job's happening, and then basically when it starts happening, it's all very serious from there onwards. But I suppose a bit of our therapy. Yeah, some people have problems occasionally, good that they trust the people that discuss it with. Yeah.
Yeah, Well, I think in what we're playing around with, the thing that always struck me as a professionalism of tactical police in that if they do stuff up, the consequences are devastating, like a high risk, and they're going to be scrutinized no matter what happens. And it's getting worse. When I say getting worse, there's more scrutiny now in that when you used to first I would imagine when you started, when you used to first do operations, it
wasn't all filmed and recorded. Now you basically everything's been recorded. If a mistake was made, you could be pulled aside and say, hey, John, slow it down a little bit or whatever now it gets critiqued in virtual real time.
Debriefs were very thorough even in the early days and probably showing our age. I was amazed when I got to the unit. I've got a page that used to go bit the red light. And then I had to find a phone somewhere. I might be driving in the car and pulling too a petrol station. I need to use your phone. And from the pager, we moved to a pager. They had a phone number that could bring and then pages. They really improved, and they had messages,
you address, you had the guys. So with technology has improved, with body cams on police now and CCTV and everybody's got a mobile. And not that we ever did the wrong thing, but it's another thing you have to think about these days. Yeah, certainly the generations have changed.
Well, I'll put my hand up.
I do remember the pager and the first time it went off, I had it on my belt and I thought that I had something wrong with me. I didn't couldn't work out what it was, and then I remembered I had the pager. What steered you towards going into the tactical side of the policing. What was it you joined the cops. Did you always have the dream of going into tactical policing when you join the cops or.
I think this will make some of my mates like unbelievable. But when you leave the academy you're probachary councilors, you know, and you get put got it, put in communications and seeing you can apply for a vacancy somewhere and be so junior in those days, basically the senior number got the position. So after I think, I like the six different police stations to get out on the road, and then they set me up. I think the sergeants at
the communications how you should do in the SOG. They like running in bitness and probably as a kid had small man syndrome. I'm not particularly tall or big. And once I applied, then I started to realize what it was all about. And I spoke just stubbornness, right, There's no way I was going to quit, you know, And yeah,
that's basically knew nothing about SOG originally. When I put the application in all and used it, I thought it was something like search and rescue and yeah, but I certainly found my part in the police force, in the organization and I'm glad I made that decision. I suffered, but I'm glad I made that decision.
And check the fine print when you applied. They don't just hand out the pair of black overalls and a big gun and tell you to go and the rest of these offenders and.
Resolve this siege.
Tell us about the training and the whole process, because it was eighty seven, eighty eight, seat where you.
Eighty nine I got into the group. Eighty seven I joined the police force. Eighty nine. I got into the group the end of eighty nine, And like I was at communications, and that comes out in the gazette. You know, you want to be an applicant in the SOG and
I put my form in. Then you do a medical and all that kind of things that goes through it, and then you do a basic PT assessment at the academy and I think we had over seventy seven applicants that year, and then you lose a few along the way, and then you have a major half day selection process and that starts off. They give you a lot of verbalization, but then you do a three point two k run
with a bulletproof best on carrying the shopguard. You got a thirty eight revolver on your hip, and you've got a helmet on and you're in GP boots. You're running around an oval and from there you return the weapons and give them back their ballistic best and all that, and you're in a boilersuit. You had to wear a boiler suit when I was overalls. And then you'd run down to the eraet swim across the era and then
up the other side. It was about fifty meter sort of climb, not quite vertical, but a big rope was there. Once you got up the top, you do a kilometer run up there around a loop and then back down the rope back across the era, and then you do one hundred meter a man carry on one of the sog guys and they're all big boys, and you know, I would have been probably seventy kilos ringing wet as
it was. And then you do that twice more. And it was a colder state for Melbourne that year, and so a couple were taken off to hyperthermia to the hospital and I can hear the SG just call him a week. We had better idea now about yeah, but you can imagine what it was like in those early days, and then.
We do a whole push uppes, all those exercises that are bad your body the way they were done, bunny pops and things like that, and by the end of it you're down to about thirty people.
And then a couple of weeks later you go before a board and we started our course with twenty two people and it was a really small classroom. You'd the shoulder and the shoulder in the classroom, and on that way you'd learned about weapons techniques, climbing, driving, reconnaissance, you know, mobile Lindo steps and the list just went on gas and by the end of it, twelve weeks later, it's all of us in the classroom and just your attrition rate is unbelievable, and we had improved, Like I think
that I was part of that. I became a fitness instructor where we started to manage people's injuries. But in those days, I think it's competition and see how many people that can get rid of on a course.
It's bad, bad, but I look back and it just puts a smile on the face. It brings back so many memories. I think I did the course for it was a six week course for two RG Tactical Response Group in it would have been eighty seven eighty eight. And I look at the policing now and before I retired in the police, and I've got some people, you know, complaining about workplace issues or HR issues, and I just
think what went down there? And you know, you talk about doing all the wrong exercises like the log run down virtually down cliff faces.
It was just chaotic.
And I forget how many people are on our course, but we I know I ended up in hospital at one stage, and I think probably three quarters of the course ended up in.
Hospital at some stage.
But there was no consideration that they were doing anything wrong. It was just partner That's what it was in those days. And like even we had I suppose on the twelve week course, worst day physically in a way was the gas day.
Oh yeah, been.
Putting in a little room and a gas canis so that should clear a house is basically clearing a toilet that we're in. You know, you're going there with your mask and that's a take off your mask and you're holding your breath and they want to what's your name? Trying and say your name without breathing knowing very soon that you're going to have to take that gulp of their like cus gas and sea gas. We had to experience. It's like a cocktail, experimenting the whole lot. Yeah, you
had not running out your nose. It was really hit in the ground. I think it was disgusting, but better done these days. It was a learning period and as I said, things have improved. A lot of guys been to university, have to plombers in fitness and stuff like that. So in the newer courses used to managing Ridge, it wasn't about getting rid of someone unless we thought they were unsuitable. But you know, on the the eleventh week
of my course, we did a reconnaissance. You know, they give you an address and outside of Melbourne or something that you've been doing the course all day, extremely tired, you have to go in through reconnaissance. You know, what's the back door look like, what's the front door look like? Where would you form up your people? How many people would you need? Which ways to the door open? And I twisted my ankle really badly in a divot. Then the next on the twelfth week, we had a twenty
k run, so again with the boiler suit. The shotgun doesn't have a sling. You got to carry it and had a thirty eight pistol on the hip and one lead of water bottle and that we had to run as only four of us left anyway, And as about a year later when I did something, tome angler had it xtraight and I had a broken bone in it, so it actually had broken the angle on the eleventh week. But I knew it was bad. But if I showed that, it was a sign of weakness and I would have
been kicked off. Of course, we lost someone in the eleventh week, you know.
So yeah, but you look back and I again, I look back with a smile on my face that you get through something like that, and you look back with fond memories because you appreciate how tough it was. The gas we went in the did the gas run, and that into that room with the gas lead off. They took us from memory. We were doing leopard crawls over gravel roads and all that beforehand, working up a sweat. We had no idea that the gas would attack or the moisture on your body.
So all places.
Worked us up into a lather.
And there was a dirty puddle of water, and we thought, oh, good idea, we will leopard crawl through that and cool down a bit.
Then they take you into the gas room.
They've warned you that some people might panic, some people might piss themselves, some people who knows what.
Reaction you goin to get.
So you're whipped up into a frenzy and then you go in there and they rip your mask off and exactly what you were saying, what's your name?
Where do you work? And you just you come out and just yeah, I say it.
Now. I'm a little bit older and wiser, but if someone said, you know, even if I wasn't being paid to do, They're like, oh, yeah, give it the game. See what it's like. And that just hits you. When people ask me what it feels like, I say, imagine if someone poured pepper into your eyes and down your throat.
That's sort of you can.
Look back and laugh. Then they video it the old VHS recorded like eighty nine, as you imagine, and yeah, I do have a copy of it. And the looks on some of the faces that boys are going at the rims like what's this going to do to us? And like you're all over the same bucket. It's not coming out. Yeah, is not too good, but that's what it was. You know, no regrets, no regrets.
What characteristics you think get people through and what are the type of things you're looking for in people to get them to be a good operator in the tactical sphere of policing, Yeah.
Very much. You know, ran a lot of courses involved in a lot of courses. Certainly the selection phase I sort of a lot of time for me. I'm looking for the gray man, you know, that does everything that's required, but when he speaks, people listen to him and there's no need to speak. He's a person that doesn't talk so very much. We're looking for those that can act as an individual. Also, it's important, more important to be a team member.
You know.
I've been in situations where I've had no one around me. I've had to react by myself, and that's what we're looking for. Someone that can think themselves hopefully make the right decision. They don't want show ponies and things like that. And like in the early days, yes, it was people about getting into the soog and wearing what they call the black pajamas and things like that, and they had
the wrong mentality for that. Probably fortunate for me, I was only very junior confortable when I put in for it. No one knew anything about me. They thought I've sent it from a procreationary period. But you had detectives that have been in the police officer for a large minute time and other senior members, and they had reputations, some were good, some were bad, so you can basically you know it's about they would targeted. Yeah, before it started, you know, and like I was a little gray man,
it's fantastic twenty two people. I was like, I heard of sheep uppy, the one in the middle. No one would see it, and then they started dropping off. Damn there was nowhere to ye now. So yeah, yeah, but I don't think there caused any pride.
I like the term great man, and that's advice I give people because you're on a course like that, in a tactical course where they're putting.
The pressure on.
Invariably the person that shines in the first day or two shines very bright, but then you see the flaws in the character that come up. And that's that quiet person seeing in the background, just getting things done, not make much of a fuss, and it seems to get.
There and then only've got a good personality and that's what you're looking for, you know. And as I say it, if they start talking near that he's talking, I'm listening for a reason.
Yeah, and I take on board what you say that you were young going into the SAJ the selection course here, I did three tactical policings through my career TRG State Protection Support Unit, then close personal protection, and I got to say it was me that was changing as I'm going through when the young bloke you have fresh just in the cops, this is great. I'm getting paid to do this where they're absolutely torturing us. I'm thinking, this is fantastic, And there was no I enjoyed every moment
of it. Next course, I do. I'm a little bit old, a little bit wise, So why am I getting it? Why are you yelling at me? Why am I getting humiliated? Why am I putting through that? And so as you get older, I think you get set in your ways a little bit, and so you can mold the younger version.
Yeah, very easy.
The surprising you mentioned about, Yeah, I was junior as a police officer. But when I going to the group of twenty nine. I was said by a couple of just an old man, what are you doing here? You know, twenty nine, you know, and cause a lot of them were about twenty five twenty six. Couple got into the group and they're about twenty one twenty two, you know.
But even my first day, you know, it started with one of them saying, oh, you know, one of the senior guys saying, you know, we had to clean our boots. And I said to him, mate, don't hold your breast because I hadn't twelve weeks again do an elak areat There's no way that I was going to basically grubble
to anybody. So that was my introduction. And then they'd one of them any fun and started rumor that I come from the priesthood, and he thought it was so funny, but he had them all petrified, like what if we do something wrong. It's just come from the priesthood.
And can we trust him.
I didn't get to do an entry for three months, you know, I was and then someone mentioned it to me, like what are you talking about? And they all just burst out laughing. You know, it's part of getting into the family. It was there joke and we did other jokes and other people, but boy, I couldn't understand. I was always cut up. They weren't touched trusting me to do the entry team. And when I finally started the
interesting you start at the back. You might be the eighth person in the house, and then finally you start moving forward. You want to be that number one go through the door to show that, hey, I've got it. You know. It was humorous to them, but boys frustrating beneath that I've got nothing wrong.
Pretty soon, yeah, but they would look at you differently in that environment.
But that's a practical joke side of things, and that that that breaks the pressure a lot of times, because that's what I've always found. There's always someone shitstirr and someone having a bit of fun, and it is a good way of diffusing tense situation.
It is you know, you're sitting in the car waiting for an armed robbery to appen. There's for you in a car. You might have been sitting there for six or seven hours and someone drops off to sleep. There's always someone awaken. Next minute, someone's pouring a canteen on your brain or something like that. The rest of the shift you sit in a wet seed, you know, but yeah, you get bored. But as you said, it's human, hure,
a bit of fun. That's how we basically deal with some of the precious situations by being by being human.
Yeah, and I picked up in your book to talking about Yeah, there's a lot of alpha males in a unit like that, And I think you were describing working out in the gym, which is quite funny. I've seen that too, like who's the fittest, who's the toughest, and people pushing each other. So a lot, a lot of interesting dynamics.
Yeah, you're considering I was an old man in some said I was basically on Yeah, one seventy two in heights, so it was fairly small for the unit. But they say the realized that throw the little guys through those little windows, you know when you do an entry. So there were smaller guys coming into the unit. We weren't all sixteen over one hundred kilos. A lot of the guys.
Big thing was the over one hundred kilos. You know, I have lots of meals, go to the gym, and you know, I was a runner and I had good makes that were runners in the unit. Do you know, you're all you didn't have any clicks. They make sure that never happened. But you know, you had guys who go off running the other guys who go to the gym. Sort of based it out for a small blake. It was interesting, but you know you've got to learn. You
got to earn your reputation. You know, it doesn't mean about being tough with just about being that gray man doing every task it's given to you, doing the shitty tasks, you know, whether it's administration or something like that, or just going and washing the vehicles and doing it properly, you know, with the unit, a tactical unit, as you know, you may be in told to one mistake, but don't ever make the same mistake twice, you know. It's yeah, that's the bad.
That was the pressure of a pressure of units like that. That, yeah, and quite rightly so, because you know, you make a mistake and it can be a.
Critical mistake, literally a critical mistake. And yeah, so.
Everyone's got to be on their on their game. And that's why I set up front total respect for you doing it for as long as long as you did. And we've got blokes in New South Wales that have basically made their career staying in the unit, and I just respect them because it's real pressure as a detective. We make mistakes, you get criticized in court. You know, occasionally it escalates in the critical things. But make a mistake, you get criticized in court. But the high stakes in tactical police.
Yeah, it's and I love to emphasize, especially to your viewers, like we talk about tactical members and all that, and it must be very dangerous within a group like the SOG. Basically we'red my the uniform members and the detectives, the playing closed members. They're the first ones that gave was seen that as it's occurring. Generally when we arrive, cordons and containments are in place, and basically we're there to resolve the situation. So people might say told me is dangerous.
We always believe the uniform and those detectives out there, they're the front line troops are the ones that are really putting it on the line, which I always try and emphasize even in the book.
You know, I think it's.
Important because the specialist police get recognition in different ways and the uniforms just sort of blending they're the police, but yeah, one hundred percent, they're the ones that just don't know what they're walking into when they knock on the door. And you know, we're seeing across the country a lot of tragedies that have happened with police just going about their jobs and not really realizing that it's attacktical situation they're walking into.
It's cost them their lives. So how did you feel when you got through?
Really, basically we had done the twenty k run the day before that was on the Thursday Friday. We have a falling out and I basically really passed out. I could see I was going white. I think the ankle had it broken. Ankle really came down to it and they during the run, you have like a middle clip holding your canteen, an army canteen, and that worked its way across my back from one way or the other,
so all the skin was rubbed off my back. It just totally exhausted, and you know, best thing, I was looking forward to four weeks leap which I had owing and it was a good relief. They presented me with a dog collar and they lead because they reckon I'd do it, which is. It was an honor that I would do anything during selection phase. When I got into graping, they were up at maun A rapidly and that we
got working up one night. There's only about six of us left then and hooded put in the back of the car, driven sometime over a rough road and then basically we're walked blindfolded to an edge. They had a rope tighter around my legs and they said jump. I just went jump and they grabbed me and they went right off at me, you idiot. That's the hood off them on the edge edge of the cliff.
You know.
It was doing our qualification ground nighttime repel A's sale and I'm they said jump. I was going to jump, and that's why they gave me a dog collar and a lead.
They said, that's that's a fair spray. I would imagine there'd be a mixture of and then looking.
At you with you idiot, Yeah, maybe I was just so I can't give you a shit anyway.
You know, if if it exhausted you that much, who care I go off a cliff. So explain to our listeners what the role of SOG is and what the history of it is, How it came into play.
Well, this is basically it was formed in ninety seventy seven and it was after all tactically brutiably formed around that period after an incident in Sydney in Chogham, Commonwealth heads of State where bomb went off and I think it killed three people that were actually picking up garbage at the time, and then it was needed that everybody knew the tactical group, so that basically that was how it was formed. In seventy seven, I was in Intake fourteen,
so I've been thirteen thirteen groups before me. So basically that was how it formed. And in the early days in that year was there they had to scrape for all the equipment. They looked originally when the SOOG started they looked for military people, so and then they also had the bomb response side that they had to form and all that. So it's starting from scratch would have been very early in those days.
And what type of jobs do they respond to?
The cant of terrorists basically, so it's sort of domestic violence in layman terms. Basically people that are going to rob banks, violent domestics where there's a hostage siege situation. Even people that might be looking at self harming and they might be in a location that normal police can't get them to get to them. Drug crops. A lot of in the early days, we did a lot of drug props and now a lot of things are droponic and stuff like that. So the big crops of ten
million dollars out in the bush now basically gone. So you go out in the bush for maybe six to seven days and just sit off a crop waiting for the offenders to come in. And certainly in the early days are robberies which aren't of frequent now as you know,
you know, high risk warrants and things like that. Also, the ESG needs to do witness protection, you know, when we had the Wall Street murders and things like that, a couple of those witnesses I'd spend seven or eight days with them on a farm somewhere in Victoria, an interstate, so we had to carry guns and generally we'd have basic another group look from during the day and I'll just do patrols at night basically by myself. I had mbgs and things like that, and a lot of preparation
for other jobs, just observation posts set up. You know that the techniques couldn't get into and we had do hobs on a premises or a rural property and things like that. Helping people install listening devices have the appropriate warrants as you can imagine, but you know, we basically enter a house and help with fair installation, just cover them that they wouldn't get compromised. I remember one we did and were told that the alleged offenders were actually
in the house and I had night vision on. They picked the locks and we'd just do a walk through the house. Sure, and I come in the main bedroom and the husband and wife were in bed. He's snoring away, and like you know, there's like little hearts puppet, we need to get out. Don't squeak the floorboards, you know, Like you have jobs like that where, yeah, you get a bit of a fright, maybe bad intel by surveillance units those days they're actually home when they shouldn't have be.
Yeah, well the type of things you describe, I've seen all that, and then you just don't know what's going to happen when you're going in there. And you know, I've had you guys out when we're looking to lock someone up and in the bush keeping surveillance virtually just in the middle of the bush for a couple of days before we're ready to raid the place, waiting for the people to come come home. So interesting, the interesting challenges and a lot of diversity.
Yeah, well, yeah, I had one in a town like we do in every reconnaissance, and it was a semi rual property. It was quite large, no the houses nearby, and he had the habit if he's very paranoid, you come out on his front porch and open up with a gun. I just fired away. Anyway, it was decided that we had to do a reconnaissance on the premises, so I was with a very new member. It just completed the course. He wasn't a priest, so he was
fine to come with me. But we went on a navy probably had lots of bush and shrub and it was a really still night. We got to the edge of the property and the main team two guys going to walk up the center of his property, which is really clean of all scrub trees, large trees, depressions, but very clean property. And they walked up and they did
the reconnaissance and then they walked back out. We covered them, had a night vision on and then the sergeant who was observing this with dye vision goggles across the road and had a sniper there. So most WI came out the same way. It's going to be quiet, you know, like instead of going through the bushes again. So we
got onto the guy's property. We about ten meters from his front door, I suppose by time we came out, and his dog started up, and he just came out in that porch in a second and just opened up, and we'd already hit the ground in a slight depression and he was just firing away. But are we getting calms that he wasn't actually sort of shooting it maybe over the top of the risk, but he couldn't pick us.
And the dogs came flying down past us, and you know, they missed us way about it needed the dogs and anyway, then he called them back into stoppage, which is basically something was wrong for his gun. Now the cartage got caught and our sniper who had maxic height which is like night vision and all that, so he's got a stoppage. Anyway, the dogs came back and I had a night vision oguss the green glow their eyes, and I had the
gas out. Don't want to hurt a dog, but you had that anger in your body and that sort of knowing that dogs can pick that up. And as the dogs walk past, he's just growling at me keept on walking. Didn't when to have anything to do with me. And the new guy beside me, this is his first three connaissance out there. All he said to me is like I love this shit, you know, and good friends with him still, just that was the member we wanted, you know, and that anyway, it took us about half an hour
to battle up his property. He was trying to find us. We had depressions in the ground that were using the shadows and things like that. He probably didn't want to find us, but he was looking for us. And yeah, as you just don't know whey circumstances are going to go.
Well, you mentioned dogs, now, you mentioned in your book, and I don't think there's many tactical police that haven't had some dog experiences. Terrifying at the time, funny after if you escape. I remember doing an early morning raid, climbing a fence, jumping over the fence and just hearing this growling behind me in a dirty rotten rock wheeler with all the dribble coming down and I had to spray.
I sprayed it.
It just shook its head and just looked cranky, going what the fuck have you just done? But I had another one with a Doberman and a German shepherd a drug plantation and it wasn't a tactical it was the tectives. We have just gone out there to have a little There was a report of it and we found that and the offender let the dogs off, and the dogs attacked a young detective. He's wrestling with the dogs where about one hundred meters away and he's in the wrestle
with the dogs. Shot his fingers off like the dogs had him pinned down. So that was a chaotic, chaotic mess with the with the dogs. But yeah, there they had another layer.
To yeah to the operation.
Yeah, And a lot of people wouldn't realize when you're doing briefing and information that's coming in and get briefing this this person's got killer dogs and they'll they'll take you out the size of an elephant. That we never really had any issues with any dogs. They picked up the aggression in you. If you've got that aggression task focused, you know, We've had dogs just open their bows as he runs through the house, which is you know a
mens Yeah. And basically all the guys, you know, all these big tarp s o g guys, they love animals, you know, they don't want to hurd a dog. Comes down to it. There was you know, we're doing a reconnaissance and it was on hydro products in a big shed on a rural property and the only entrance was the front door, and they had a cyclone fence around it, a large cyclone fence, and they had a dog there and like a a up start barking every time we made it and approached to do a reconnaissance. We had
surveillance here. They would cameras in there, listening devices. And so the first night we agitated that dog, I just kept on walking up and then we disappeared. The owners would come out from fifty meters away from their house and see what was going on, and the barking got less and less and less. Anyway, we came back the next night, but I came back a whole lot of dog biscuits. I was laid up with dog biscuits and probably took me an hour and a half before I got to the cage. We had to back off a
few times. He only came out again, and he was getting sick of the dog too, you know, barking all the time. Finally got that first dog biscuit in his mouth, and then I got the second Monday, and then I was scratching you through the wire, and I thought, oh well, I got to start climbing this fence. And I climbed the fence and give him another bit biskit, and then the rest of the boys walk up and he starts growning it, and give him another biscuit and exit their
old climb out of fence. They get into the shed and by this time the dogs starting to make so much noise that it's purring, it's starting to it's just loving you. I'm running your stomach. It's got its legs in the air. And they do their reconnaissance and basically we get out, but they told me keep it down, keep the dog down. We're all happy noises in the end, And the next night we did the actual the raid on the premises. I made sure I did the shed
because I didn't want anything happening to the dog. Dog didn't bark when we are walked up.
You know, yeah, you'll you'll mate the dog.
Have you ever come up against geese which sounds strange, but done a couple of places where the Druggis would have geese a warning sign if the cops or other criminals are coming up to their premises, be hard to keep quiet.
Yeah, I got a hell of the fright one night with Coach.
Yeah, you know rural.
It wasn't rual. It was actually Saburnie in Melbourne. We do reconnaissance on a on a place and that over the neighbors Spence and it was one of those nights full murder and all that kind of stuff. We put our heads over Spence to get over it and like these two goats just bleted, you know, they gave this and it was so still. It was like I was hit by the overpressure of that noise, both of the sort of landing back on the gravel, just holding our hearts. What the hell was that? You know?
Yeah, that's all the different experiences. These are the ones that have come through, and most jobs come through and people are unscathed. There's one in your one in your book, and I think it was fairly early in your career where you've gone into arrest someone that was Anthony White had broken into a house.
Do you want to tell us? Tell us that that.
Story fairly early in my career in the in the group, pretty sad story in the way this gentleman came down. He had mental health issues which were suddenly given understanding by then. But there are a lot of X fact on this job. That he came down from South Australia, just pulled up in Deer Park, a suburb in Melbourne.
Out of Melbourne. I had a twenty two rifle with him, telescopic sight and just started firing shots down the streets, lamp posts, at science, at people and naturally everybody's running everywhere. And then he basically tried to get in the front door of the house. Couldn't do that. Was an only couple. I think they were in their seventies. Shouldn't say that now they were out and a look at my age.
But then he smashed the front roune through window, got through there and they ran down the hallway, got into a back bedroom. They barricaded themselves. He fired a shot which hit the lady and then he forced his way in there and the husband managed to convince him to let him go, and he half carried his wife out of the house and as I going and fired another shot and became a siege situation. You know, fairly earlier I m in the groups three or four months by then.
There was a five man team, very cold, wet, miserable afternoon. We came through the back of the property. It was clay building up on our boots and we're basically out there negotiators. We're trying to make contact. We could hear a child's voice at one stage, hear a woman's voice at one stage. So we were too short where there are hostages or whatever was going inside. And finally our bosses gave us the go ahead, you need to go in there do our hostage rescue. As we entered through
the back door, went into a laundry. Then we turned left, if imagined, into the kitchen and where two of our members were confronted by him. He fired a shot. They returned fire, and both our members went down, and the membering that the three of us behind and all of us thought the same thing. Those two members have been shot. They went down on their backs. Things were happening very fast. We couldn't fire shots because who would have been flying over the top of their heads, and one member managed
to return fire. I ducked out through the back door and came to the kitchen sitting hiding behind the fridge, so I let go with the shot. Then was at a rem int an eight seventy shotgun had sg's in it, an SG carpage for the viewers holds about nine pellets. They're about the size of the thirty eighth round. So the other member was beside me. He buyed two rounds and skipped those off the fridge. Obviously he could see
the same threat. We then ran back inside, jumped over those members that were trying to get up, and basically arrested the offender. But he actually died at the scene when he came down to it, so it was mental health issues. Obviously he was putting these voices on to give us the impression that there are hostages and things like that. So one of those unusual circumstances, and fortunately the woman survived her injury. But you know, shocking state
affairs for them. Although there's no humor in this, but because I'd shopped the fridge, so someone else had too. Was a calbinador fridge. So my nickname for the next six months was Calvin.
Life can be so cruel. Come Atkelvin, it can be so cruel.
You do the right thing and surprising and like, yeah, we had you know, rumors are starting to come out that we'd buy through a frosted window. Just luck that we get the fridge and like the video. And then the worst part is, after an instant like that, your views might realize basically we're under investigation. Naturally, it has to be done right. We're separated, our weapons have passed over, and we're not allowed to talk to each other. We're
placing individual cars. The homicide squad turns up and actually we're sitting there for an hour and a half not talking to anybody, can't contact their families and things like that, and you feel like a criminal, especially as a junior member. You know, where my buddy is the more experience, what should we be doing here? And then we're just basically
told go home and be interviewed. The next day we turned up and we'd be told we'll do a video re enactment, which is really a no note, you know, because everybody proceed these things differently, and your viewers would know that, and so I do my reenactment. The other guys do their reenactment. How boys hadn't been shot. But when they discharged their weapons originally because of the clay
you're online. Oh, the recall from their weapons, basically they slipped was like ice in the kitchen and that's why they went down. And the offender's weapon at the end, when it was checked, it had one of our rounds going through the telescopic sight. So basically it means that it was pointing at you when it was fired. And that's not a wall actually in the office, the SAG office at the moment. But yeah, we get interviewed, you feel like a criminal, and yeah, we have five different
stories that have been video read acted. You know, we didn't get into trouble. It was all cleared, and you know he was responsible for his own death. But you know, it's a learning experience that junior.
I know what you're talking about. I've been involved in critical incidents from the operational point of view, and yeah, it's straw. Yeah we can all say and we put on the bravado, but you know, when someone's life has been taken, it's traumatic. And then as you identified you're separated, you can't talk, you feel like you've done something wrong and you're just doing your job, and yeah, this is you did exactly what you're supposed to do, and you.
Do feel like a criminal.
So I've had it from that side, and I've also had it from the homicide time, where I had the lead critical investigations, and it made me feel uncomfortable what we put people through. And you and I both know there needs to accountability, it needs to be that, but it just adds another layer to what's.
Yeah, you're sitting in that carvern here at half and start questioning, you know, have I done the right thing? You know, what actually did happen? Probably in one way, you probably little bit of shocked, you know that it's happened, big shock. We've seen those two members going down, and we all at the same thing, all three of us. You know, obviously you've got that be shot. You know, Yeah, it was pretty incident, as you know, but you question
your judgment for that hour. And after I've done the right thing, I've done what my training told me to do and no question about it.
And it doesn't just stop there either, because then it invariably goes to the coroner's court even if you haven't done anything wrong, quite rightly, there need to be a coernial inquest into it. But then you know, twelve months down the track or longer, you've seen in the witness box justifying what you did in a split second. Embarrasses have been paid a lot of money to criticize you for anything that came in. I had one where I did the operational orders and called the person that was
to decease the target. I was in the witness box for ten minutes just being questioned about that, and so, well, wouldn't you agree that target means you were going to shoot him? I'm going no, that's what we call the person of interest that were after the target. He was a person we went into arrest. But yeah, that how a different slant can be put on it? And how do you personally come away from situations like that? How does it sit with you?
Well, as you said, you go to the coran's court and media in your face, like certainly in the very early days, we can want and they're pretty good the blue around our faces and things like that. We can and you know, occasions up for shooting, if it was a very profile offender that had been shot and killed. We'd had death threats made and we'd had the basic carry a weapon, make sure we had a weapon, to have a weapon, need type we wanted. But it makes you, yeah,
sometimes be disappointed. The media are really good. I've got no ins, but you know, I've been involved in another shooting in that. You know, I don't know if you're going to.
That yeah, and that one, and just before you go into that one, because I do want to talk about that one as well. But the s o G or Victoria and police and I just I was looking there for the figures that in the nineties eight year period there was a lot of deaths as a result of police operations and there was a lot of scrutiny on you guys.
So yeah, it was it was a bad period and I think it affected us being called out for tasks at some stages. You know. Yeah, a lot of disks in police Cassine, not all by the s o G. But we did have a few. And uh yeah at the height of that, you know, we had a double double fatality at the and like you know, didn't have mobile phones in I was told to go to the shop, bring the police association. Let him know what's going on, you know, And and I don't know who's in charge
of the sociacts in that stage. I think I do, but I rang him and I said, look, mate, we're being involved in another shooting and j C. No, no, no, mate, it's worse the double. We did nothing wrong, and when it went to the coroner's court, you know, we weren't responsible for the offend of his death. But you know it's it was a bad time, bad period.
Do you want to tell us about that? Tell us about that one that.
Was Eton Park. It was a robbery. I can't are you very young kid involved, which is unfortunate with excus and I can't remember. Excuse was the older man. He was a crook, a good time crook. Anyway, they were going to rob a real estate agency and the week before they're going to do one, and I was in the COVID van. You know, we're going to do the arrest, and then they turned away and didn't do it. It was
just another location. Anyway, next week they went through the same and we weren't too sure we knew the suburb of what they were going to actually hit. We had someone that was maybe beating a bit of information, but we realized it was going to be a real estate We got a guy there five minutes before they turned up to get people at the back to the place, and the COVID then turned up, The offenders turned up
and they were called on. We were now trying to prevent the offense from mccurring, and that was probably from a previous job where things had changed our our techniques. And when they called upon, Skewers went through his gun, shotgun and the other guy, young kid, he reached into a bag and the number of shops will by resulting in their death, and you know, scrutiny. It was a young kid, a bad choice of friend, a bad thing to do, and they were going to a real estate agent.
I think they're going to get thirty five cents that was in until that was basically it unfortunate, bad mistake.
And these things do happen, and I don't think police are heading out there looking for that, but yeah, someone's got to respond. In fact, you've seen then there's people in it's probably the field of work that you're in where even when you're trying to mind your own business, trouble attracts that was one. You've been called out, I think, And we haven't even started talking about your bomb response.
To that stuff yet, but we'll cover that later on.
But I think you've been called out to a job you weren't on call, You're gone home, probably in trouble with your wife, and then you got called out to another job because you were nearby. It was it in Frankston, Yeah, that one in Frankston. Yeah, tell us that that one.
That was basically it. Yeah. We talked about family sacrifice, and I made a commitment to my wife, yes I will go to your work Christmas party this year. Unfortunately on a call, but you know, it's the twenty first of December. I think it was ninety one. Nothing's going to happen anyway. I dropped her off at the party. I get out of the car near five minutes my phone goes, you know, suspect package in the city. You'll need to go. So I had all the bomb equipment,
plus my personal equipment. I'm in another bomb tech there. It was a point. It was just X ray stuff like that. It was a nothing. Things. Hop back in the car and as I'm driving a weight, phone goes again, Oh, we've got another one on the outer suburbs of Melbourne. A suspicious box has been put on someone's front door. You know, so by the time you drive there, it takes an hour and a half to get there, do
all your equipment, cordon's containments in place. You basically do a lot of questioning only probab with anybody, and once you've done the job, and it was an empty cardboard box by the time I get back to the Christmas party, it's now eleven thirty and I don't know how.
She puts up you popular.
I don't know as she put up with me. But that's what the job is, and that's a sacrifice that goes with it. So it was a very quiet drive home that night. But so one thirty my phone goes off again and I was sort of more bomb response to that shift. Anyway, you know, there's a siege started up. It's only about ten minutes away from you. We're trying to get people there now. And you get there and start getting things sorted. And this guy, he had a guard, he fight a shot, He had his wife and children
in the house. By the time I got there, they had been released. So he's buying himself and my inspector and my sergeant just arrived, so there's only three of us. So I arrived there, I've got all my equipment with the know a bit disappointing because when you're first, you get to be put in the cutoff position, means you the back of the house. At the front of the house. You're not going to do the entry into the house to get the offender, whether you like or not. That's
what it's all about. Being the grip. You want to go through the door. So you know, I kicked a bit of gravel, and you know, I grabbed a weapon. I had a choice of weapons, so I had about four or five different weapons in the car, that's what you had in those days. And I grabbed a short shotgun that I had a pistol grip on. It was the eight seventy pumper that already taken axle to the
barrel a bit, which it couldn't those days. And I had a sling as a bicycle tued and I do use like a jump fences and just stretch the gun out to my side and one get caught on anything. A very fast response. You know, probably not the best weapon for that type of job. But you know, I had the the SGUs in it, and I became front cut off really dark street, and I wasn't too sure whether he was in one house or the one beside it.
There was no dividing fence, And soon enough a dark shadow came out of one of the houses and walked down the street. Couldn't tell whether it's male or female, that's how dark it was. Was laying in a prime position beside a brick letterbox a bit of cover, and I couldn't work out. And then when we were drived, the police had parked the car in a bad position a couple of cars right in the middle of the street, and we had evacuated those police members but left their
cars there. In a matter of second, this guy's just raised the gun up and shot at the cars, and just instinctively in your training, you go police, don't move. All I got was the word police out before he buyed a shot at me from about ten meters away, and actually the flash just sort of blinded me for a sec. I responded with one shot and I hit him in the witch to the ground that he took
four palettes from the SG in his shoulder. Now they had a longer barrel that would have kept the grouping together, but so be it. He survived and basically I called for assistance. Most started came running up, you know, I said, I got him covered, and then we've got a uniform member to mind him, and we had to clear the house.
You know, the job keeps on going on. I mean, I've just shot so one being it's clear the house and not even thinking about him is now being restrained by the uniform members because it's safe to do so. And yeah, then I get interviewed again, you know, basically weapon gets taken off me. I got it, although he wasn't going to die. He was in Frankslin hospital and said I was a terrible shot and member there and she collect smart us never heard any problems from him.
A game, you know, maybe a good result, but then the media start, you know that's yeah where it is bad.
Well, and I think it came out in the media that you know, a father of four or whatever, father of three have been being shot and by police and you know, the the onus.
Everything's in the telling in the headline.
Isn't it. Yeah, Well, we'd unfortunately had enough. It sounds bad. Unfortunately had another failed shooting that week earlier.
Okay, so the media or police.
Second shooting for the week s O g bold too. And yeah, the reports to father of four beach shot. And my wife was pretty annoyed by that, and she says that, well, I should have been father of four shot by father three because father four shot at farthera three.
That would have been a more truthful headlineful headlight.
But yeah, but good.
Good on her, And yeah, I think that puts it in perspective like police can be put in a bad light, But what happens if you didn't respond or police just go off. We're not going to turn up there? What goes on there? He can walk in the streets with a.
Firearms as we saw in Dear Park, you know, going to someone's house, and you know, I think probably it was remembering his bit of alcohol involved. And fortunately he survived, you know, and so to me, they had a good outcome. You know, I was questioned the next day we had our Christmas party, all the group guys, you know, naturally
they want to, oh what happened? And even then I think it had only been the unit happen ninety one only been the unify a year now, I've been involved in a few shootings already, just luck of the draw. As a technical member. My way was great to be honest, be involved in these jobs. And so I've found a lot of the wives you want to sit down with me, you know what happened, just you know, with more concern, and the other guys saying what kind of weapon were you thinking of when you took it?
You know?
And I explained that that, oh, you're a shit shut and all that. Anyway, that Monday, everybody's out in the range of a pistol grip shop gun, laying on the ground a prome position and realize, yeah, it is that ship weaponed to basically use them a job like that, And I learned.
Well, that's you're always I would imagine with the experience you've got, you're always learning. Every job you would take away that little bit more experience. Yes, you never get to a point where you know everything. They're always learning something.
John. We might take a break.
People have listened to this might think, Okay, you've had your excitement for a policing. Part two might be about just settling down and putting your feet up and ticking rosters. But you clearly couldn't get enough of this tactical policing, and you found yourself in the bomb response unit diffusing bombs.
And for people that don't fully appreciate that, these are the dudes that put on those funny looking bomb suits and walk off on their own to a suspicious package and find out what it is and diffuse it if necessary. So that's where John's next stage of his policing career is gone. And I just as a teaser for part two as well. You would have no idea what this lunatic does for his downtime away from the high pressure tactical policing and bomb response unit. He climbs mountains, but
not just any mountain, climbs Mount Everest. So we'll talk a little bit about that in part two.
If you don't mind, John.
No Problematka, Let's have a break. Don't do anything stupid during the break, John, and just make sure you come back there.
No problem at all. I won't go for a brikera okay
Cheers, Nes need to nine