The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. Detective see a side of life the average person is never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid, I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some of the content and language might be confronting. That's because no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join me now as I take you into this world. Welcome back to part two of my chat with Louisa Hope, a person who lived through the horror of being a hostage during the Limp siege. Louis are welcome back. Thank you again. I apologize. I'm going to say that the living this to get a sense of the impact that
has on you as an individual. I think so people can understand because you speak so clearly about your experience there. But I asked you the other day in researching and preparing for the podcast, so I had to look at some old vision and watch the sixty minutes special on the Link Cafe Siege, which you featured prominently in And I was surprised when you said, I haven't watched it, so you are still carrying stuff from that from the experience.
Yeah, I think that, you know, with regards to media, it's a very special place. And once you've once you've given over, you've given over your true self. And of course then the media can cut an edit and do it they want with that, so you have to trust them and so therefore, and of course it's just so so embarrassing to watch yourself, don't you think, Well, listen back and what exactly? So you know, like it's just probably more that than the you know, the angst of it.
The interesting thing for me, of course, And I don't know how everyone else handled it, My mother and I. So after the siege, I was three months in hospital, Mum was about two weeks and then we all we lived together, my mother and I and my sister, God bless her. She came up from the coast, left her organic farm and came up to look after us because actually we needed looking after, and so we were all living together and it was obvious that Mom and I
were having a very different experience. So which really when it comes to kind of the case study of these kind of things, that would have been interesting, you know, at the time to sort of follow our different paths. But for me, post siege, I feel like I had a post trauma euphoria in that. I mean, I was just so gob smacked an Amazer didn't die. I was just like just overwhelming gratitude and I just sort of
went up. So, you know, it was about year eight before I realized that actually I was experiencing some post traumatic symptoms and psychological challenges, and so it was until then that I actually went and saw somebody properly about it.
Yeah, it's interesting, and we'll talk a little bit more about the impact that they had on you, your mum, and everyone else later. Getting back to the siege, I think where we left off in part one, that the two girls had escaped, and the collectively as a group, you managed to talk momus around into not believing what's been reported in the media and potentially placated the situation to the fact that he didn't kill a hostage like he
threatened to if anyone else escaped. We're now getting to know it started in the morning, starting to get dark. I think in Thissu came he was getting agitated that the street lights were on. Talk us through that and what the tension was in the room as you like, you set your sights on things, if I can just get through this day, but when the day is starting to turn into night, what how you feeling as an individual and what did you feel like the atmosphere of the group was.
Well, we're starting to get to that point, especially as nights started to come in. But we're definitely getting to that stage. You know, we're still trying everything. Like at one stage someone said, let's try Al Jaz's. We're trying Eljaz's and let's try you know, CEE and.
All the international kits to the media.
Yeah. Yeah, So we're still trying to do that, knowing that they would be starting to wake up around that time, and we're still trying BBC the whole night, whole nine yards. Really it was everybody. We're trying and so becoming increasingly challenging,
and of course by then the negotiators were ringing us. Police, negotiators were ringing us, and hostages were speaking to them and with you know, little bits and things that he wanted during the day, and so there was that, and hostages were, you know, trying to speak to the negotiators and placate him and just kind of try and keep things on an even keel. But of course the nights pressing in now, and one of the things that started to happen was he started to get agitated about the lights.
So of course in Martin Place it was nearly Christmas, so there was a giant Christmas tree and all the lights on the Christmas tree, and then they're worth the pedestrian lights, which is funny how you hear them. They're louder at nighttime than they are during the day. So he's starting to say things like I want to get the lights turned off. So we're ringing the negotiators, We're
trying to get through to them. At one stage we rang the number that the negotiators had given us, and of course nobody answered that was a little bit peculiar.
So just hold it there and we'll get back to that. But just clarifying speaking to them go shaders, so on your mobile phones making contact with the GA Shaders and momus was happy for you to talk to them the GA Shaders. Yeah, I was on speaker phone? Was it so he could hear what was being said?
That's right?
And what type of communications were being had.
Well, you know, it was peculiar speaking with them, I've got to say. So. They so we were asking for things like the lights to be turned off, and at one stage, one of the negotiators we're saying, you know, we asked a while ago these lights. One of them, he wants the lights turned off. And the chat we were speaking to at the moment in the moment, I can't remember what their name was, but he said, well, it's not just straightforward to get the lights turned off.
And we're all like, what, you know, how hard could that possibly be? You know, really, in this moment, whoever turns off the lights should be right there on the spot, but apparently not. So there was a lot of that kind of thing going on, and you know, the police were getting no closer to speaking to him personally. He was definitely not going to speak to them personally. He used, you know, different ones of the women to speak to them.
Yeah, okay, So he refused to speak directly to that's current place. Yes, all right, we've got the situation with the lights. As I understand that, the lights became an issue where he became agitated to the point where he said, if the lights aren't turned off in fifteen minutes, someone's going to die. Yeah, that was what was the atmosphere like then.
That was very tense and quite distressing, and you know the so that like raises the bar again and yeah, so of course it's making all of us. We're fatiguing as well. The day's going on and everyone's getting anxious and tired and more so, you know, thinking that here we are. In my head, I personally was thinking, well,
we've missed the other opportunities. Okay, probably what the police will do was aim for that, you know, that three am time where everybody everyone's circadian rhythms, you know, up and down, and maybe they'll come in then. So I sort of thought to myself, Okay, I don't know what time it is, but we've got a little way to go yet. Then they're definitely going to come in then, right.
So that was just generally, but of course the other thing was was that people were collectively getting discouraged that there'd been no police and there was no give on behalf of the police. Earlier on in the siege, there had been a armored truck you know, collect the money, parked out the front, and he said he wanted that moved. So the police had arranged for that to be moved quickly, which was a good thing. But as time went by and of course things changed, it went from being a
situation to being a terrorist event. So from that point of view, I know that it changed within the police, and of course that meant that we don't negotiate with terrorists, and so there was no negotiation.
So that was Yeah, from your point of view, is a hostage point of view? Was there and collectively as a group you can talk on behalf of the group if you feel comfortable. Was there some frustration?
Absolutely, because it just from our point of view being in the room, we knew that if he was just given a little bit of you know, grace for one of a better word, but a little bit of room, you know, and to feel like he's had a little win, then maybe you know, he'll be plicated once again. So we were looking for that and to therefore wait then that little bit longer for when the police come in, so you know, and avoid somebody being killed. So that
was where we were collectively at. I think it's fair to.
Say, well, the people talking to the police, highlighting the fact that yeah, this is very real, like someone's going to die. Was like I can imagine if I was at the end of the phone, not as a police officer, as a whole, I'd be making the point very clear. Hate listen to what I'm saying. Is that the type of conversation that was flowing.
Definitely, you know, So that was you know, people were beginning to become very vocal and frustrated with dealing with the police, especially you know, that time when the number that we've been given was not answered. And then one of the girls I know went on to ring one of the local it was either a radio station or
television station. I can't recall which, but she rang, and God love, I'm the poor woman who answered the phone said, I can't do anything for you've got a number, ring the number, and you know, our girl in the room says, we've rung the number, but they don't answer, you know, And so the frustration was across the board, you know, foolishly, I had thought in the moment that the police would have had cops placed amongst all the you know, local
media outlets and sort of listening in and conversation. I don't know why I thought that there'd be that level of a sophistication in this situation, but I did, and I thought that there'd be a cross all to that. And so I really feel for the woman who answered the phone at the random media outlet, sort of the pressure that she must have felt. You know, I can't do anything for you ring the number that the police have given you, and you know, so it was this kind of looping.
What was going on? So you were given a number or when I say you, I'm talking collectively as hostages and moms for that matter, given the number that if you need to speak to us, we're on this number. That's right, and the number is fine, Then that didn't answer that's right.
So you know, I understand, you know, in hindsight, having having gone to the inquest, that the reason for that was that there was some sort of a collective handover meeting at the time at the time that we made that call, so there was nobody actually in their situation room to answer the call, which was unfortunate.
Really, I go as far and I'm a police officer, and I make mistakes like we all do, but that's not unfortunate. That's unforgivable. But in the chaos of it, hindsight's a wonderful thing. So I'm not going to judge him. But I think you've been very kind saying unfortunate. It shouldn't happen. And we've talked off Mike, and we'll talk further about it. Lessons that need to be learned, and
we can all always improve. But the one thing that should have priority is the hot line straight to what's going on in the seage the fifteen minutes the lights turned off. Were they turned off in the fifteen minutes? I would imagine as it was getting dark, tensions arising. Anyway, you've indicated that the place when everyone's a little bit tired around about the three am mark. Let's not give
away police methodology, but they might come in there. But I would imagine also as it got dark, you've been through the whole day and thinking, Okay, they're waiting for it to get dark, then they're going to make the move. All the lights will go off and the police will come storm in in the building.
Yeah, that's right. You know, that was starting to become the place of hope that you know it's going to happen. It's got to happen soon. But it was just sort of what was becoming obvious amongst the collective was that we were running out of options. We'd run out of options for media. He was concerned that he at one stage had said that he'd release a hostage in good faith. There was even a discussion about who that should be.
And you know, the fact of the matter is, with all of that happening, he then was hesitant to release this hostage because he said he couldn't rely on the media to tell people that he had done that in good faith. So, yeah, that didn't happen obviously, and so all of that, So all these discussions and negotiations and considerations about who should be released and who should it
was just intense. So at one point at the Inquest, they were saying things were settling down in the stronghold, which of course is what they call the cafe, but the opposite was actually true. Things were building. The tension was building ad because we knew that we'd run out of options. We could not get this media attention that we had been trying to get for him all day. So where does he go?
Now?
What do we do?
And what you said? Then, again with the benefit of hindsight and from what came out in the inquest, is I understand that how it was reported that there was a perception within the police and the people that have been relying on to give an opinion that it's going to settle down, they'll settle down overnight. But what you're saying it was completely the opposite. He was getting agitated. You guys were getting agitated and the tension was rising in the stronghold.
Yeah, that's right, That's how it really was. And so you know, like, of course, no one's screaming or shouting, and if they were observing from the outside, they just think it was quiet in there, and all of the lights were off inside the cafe, so you know, but that was a wrong assumption.
Definitely an assumption. Think when there's only one terrorist in there, one person controlling that that person's going to it's just going to stay awake the whole night, which is possible, but obviously it starts to get weary.
That's right, You've got to assume that, you know.
He wouldn't have thought that's going to go I'm going to be sitting up all night trying to sort this out.
No, that's right. I mean, you know, like the night makes you tired, doesn't it. And so yes, of course what was the plan?
We didn't know. Did you settle down at any particular point in time? Was there a time you're sitting, standing or laying on the floor. Did you at one point in time go well, it's just whatever's going to happen is going to happen.
No, well, that certainly towards you know, is that the nights creeping on there. It was definitely we I think I could say we were feeling the collective nowhere else to go, you know, a sense amongst us, and it was like, well what happens now? So there's a certain sense being you know, reduced to that and being left
with that, well what can we do now? Like so that had a certain sense of heaviness about it, but it was not a settling because there was still discussion going on, and still he was then become busy thinking. You know, we could tell that he was trying to work out what to do and then and then he says to the young went workers to get us our tea food once again, weird, So you know we did that, had tea and food.
Okay, take us through till sort of midnight. What's the next significant thing that took place.
Well, then then we're all sitting around looking at each other in a way with not knowing what else to do, and we've had some food and drink. And he then gets to the point where he see all during the whole day there were noises in the cafe, just ordinary noises in a cafe, but they they rattled him. He was like, what's that, you know, thinking it's the police
and all that kind of thing. So there was the noise of the ice making machine in the cafe, and it just kind of goes cla cathud, you know, every hour on the hour, and there's the noises from the industrial fridges. So there's all these noises, and every time the ice machine went, we all just went, it's the ice machine, you know, relaxed. Yeah, that's right, so you know, but we all got used to those noises, and of
course they're louder in the nighttime. And he heard this noise and he wasn't sure, and he decided that he wanted to go to the cafe himself, sorry, Gosh, to go into the kitchen himself. And so that's what he decided he was going to do. He was going to go into the kitchen and investigate the noise. What was the noise? So there we all are, we're in the cafe, just broadly sitting around together, and he says, right, we're
going to go you. He points to Selena and Fiona, mar and Jared, so three hostages, and he says, we're going into the kitchen. He put the two girls in front of him, then him, then Jared. I think that's correct. And he starts to walk towards the kitchen. Okay, and I'm thinking, right, you paying attention now, this is different. He's not done this the whole days. Unusual. Okay, then what's where's he going? What's he going to do?
So, and the kitchen is divided from the cafe, so when he's walking into the kitchen, you guys are out the side, when he's out the site of view.
Exactly on your own, yeah, effectively, So we're walking and then he randomly says he's on his way in a line. Everyone's walking in a line towards the kitchen, watching and thinking, and then he says to Jared Young Jared Morton Hoffmann. He says, you mind the door. Mind the door. And that's the door that goes between the back of the cafe and the vestabile area for the rest of the building, and that's a glass door where the young girls had
escaped through. Okay, mind the door, Jared. And I'm thinking as if jared'skind of mind the doorway, and then he says he keeps walking with the two girls. Now at that stage, I majorly started to panic. I'm sitting there in my chair, you know, like everyone's around, and I go, oh my god, what's going to happen? He's going to take them to the kitchen. What's he going to do? Is he going to kill one of them? Or is it going to be something worse? What is he going
to do to those two girls? And he's walking towards the kitchen. And of course, by then, Gary, I'm in a mad, frantic panic because I'm thinking what's going to happen? Right? So in that moment, I just closed my eyes really tight and I started to pray, like a crazy woman, like, God, are you here? Are you watching? Can you see what's happening? Those girls are going to die? What's going to happen?
And then all of a sudden, there's big bang and I opened my eyes and literally all of my fellow hostages that were sitting right there had gone, and I went, oh, okay, we're going right, So I stood up, and then of course Tory Johnson and my mother was sitting behind me on the bench seat really close to me. So I get up and I go towards the door and I
think the others have gone. What's happened? Blah blah, And I'm on my way towards the door anyway, Tory and Mom are not moving, so I'm trying to because I didn't have my glasses on and it was dark in the cafe, and I'm trying to come on, come with me, you know, I'm indicating for them to come with me. They're not moving. So I'm going towards the door and I'm literally nearly at the door, and I went, what am I going to do? I can't leave without Mum.
And I literally spun around on one leg, you know, because I haven't got a walking stick or anything, you know, and I'm literally did that, and I thought, I can't leave my mother, So you know, I didn't know what to do. So I just lay down on the floor and put my arms out and I thought he's going to come and kill me because I'm not in the spot that he left me in. And I thought, definitely, this is it dying today. And you know, I had a whole lot of different thoughts, but in the moment,
it was like, oh, well, here we go. But within seconds he was over the top of me. He grabbed me by my brass strap through the back of my dress and hauled me up. And I'm a bit dodgy on my feet, you know, And so his panicked is absolutely in a frantic panic state, and he didn't know whether to sit me or stand you know what. He
sit here. No, he just was so confused. And then in the end he says, and he walks a bit closer out into the middle of the cafe and closer to the front door, and he says, you stand here on my right side. And then he says to Mum, you come here, and he places her on his right side, which is the kitchen side, and then he calls to Tory Johnson and he says, you manager, come here, kneel down and put your hands on your head. So of course that was like, you know, because what's that, that's
execution position. Like it was just terrifying in the moment, and by then you can imagine I don't know how the mum was, but I absolutely was dropping with adrenaline and you know, just totally freaked out and thinking what's going to happen, what's going to happen. He's going to
kill Tory? And then he starts to shuffle, and he's shuffling where he's standing, he's got he's holding his gun up and he's scanning the front door and he's scanning, assuming, as we were, that the police were coming, and so
he's doing that scan thing. Then he actually drops down into one of the pockets on his cargo pants and pulls out more bullets and I watch him put them into the gun and then he's doing the scanning thing, and he's just and I'm thinking he's gonna kill Tori and then bang, But what he does is shoots up into the right hand side of the ceiling. So it's like he didn't kill Tory. You know, he didn't kill him.
It was like like this overwhelming relief. And then and then he goes back to scanning and we're waiting, where are the police? When are they coming in to rescue us? And you know, so he's scanning the room again and he's going through the same motions, and the next minute
he knows, he does the same thing. He shuffles, puts the gun up to his shoulder and then he goes bang, and this time he shot Tory and Tory just fell forward and he fell forward and he had his hands I could see still on the back of his head and he just fell forward, you know. And in that moment you think or maybe he just hit him in
the shoulder, you know, maybe he didn't kill him. Maybe he just ted his shoulder and he's just gone forward, and you know, as he went down, the table bounced to hit the leg of the table, and it was just like I couldn't believe that had I just couldn't believe that he had killed him was dead. I just was overwhelmed with the shock of it, and it was unbelievable in the moment, and the overwhelming physical sense of adrenaline and fear and terror was just so intense and
then what, well, then where the police. The police have got to come now, but they didn't. Now I can't tell you the minutes that that took for them to come, but it just was so we're waiting and I'm thinking, what's next. Well, it's only Mum and I that he doesn't know that, you know, Marsia is still in the room, or Katrina for that matter. I didn't know Katrina was still in the room. So we're looking and I'm thinking, this is it. He'll take kill Mum or I or
both of us together. So you know, it was just sort of like so overwhelming, and we're waiting and waiting for the police to come. And it was like a car accident, you know, when it's happened so fast but slow at the same time. So we're in that sort of scenario and it just was so intense. And then the next minute, all this color started to fill the room, and then smoke, and then it was just like this sort of surreal kind of thing. I'm seeing reds and
oranges and everything, and then smoke and then kaboom. Then all the police starts to come in. They're firing and they're firing and firing and all the bullets and it was just incredible haze of and I'm still standing there where he had placed me. I'm still and I'm like, oh, no, what you know, well, if I just stand well, I was right next to him, so close that when he turned around, I could feel his backpack hitting me in the shoulder. And I'm hanging on for grim death, not
wanting to fall over. And so you know this was but that when the bullets started firing, I just had that moment where I thought, I just stand still, one of those police would just come in and shoot him, bang dead, and then it'll all be over. But that's not what happened. And then someone called out get down, get down. I don't know where or what that where that come from. And then I'm thinking, well, how do
I get down? You know, like, and then the next minute I had felt another hit and that hit knocked me off and I staggered across towards the bench side seat and I slid down one of the tables and then I was on the ground. So and I really have this kind of missing piece in my memory of standing and then on the ground, so I don't kind of exactly know what happened, but it was just sort of so intense, and all the time the bullets just
kept firing and firing. It kept going, and I'm lying there on the floor this stage, and I looked down and I suddenly noticed that the straps from my good sandals are gone. And I'm thinking, oh no, my good sandals. How am I going to get that fixed? Oh my god, I'm going to die, you know. But like your mind, you know, what do you think of? And then it's just constantly, constantly, it doesn't stop. It's so intense, keeps going,
all these bullets and then the smoke. And then I had my eyes closed, and I had my eyes closed with my hands over my eyes, and I actually thought, we've survived this whole day, but we're definitely going to die now. I'm as a watch, you know. So I took my hands away, opened my eyes and all I could see was smoke. And you know, it was dark in the room, and the shads of light from outside, and you could see the smoke in the shards of light. It was so intense. And then it was crazy and
just kept going. And then all of a sudden, bank stopped just stopped quiet. I was like, it stopped, and yeah, it was peculiar. Then there was that moment and I sort of half sat up and I was feeling my head and checking my and I'm thinking, I'm not ted, you know, I was such a surprise. I knew that my foot was something wrong with my foot because I'd been through that where I was in such pain, but I thought they could still firing, so I can't. They don't know where he is. He's not dead, so I
can't scream out. So anyway, and then the next minute one of the TU guys is over the top of me and he's he's shouting, get up, get up, run run, and I'm like, run, isn't it over? You know, run run, he's saying, and I say, I can't my foot and he says, well, can you hop? And he hauls me up by one hand. Hop shure, man, you say, hop,
I'll just hop right out here. And it was like, because you know, they're pretty big and scary, those dudes, right, and I know that they're the heroes, but like in the moment, it was yeah, sure, So I started to hop out of the cafe, you know, which is really when I think about It must have been a sight to see, but you know, and then of course two of the guys come behind me, picked me up, scooped me up, took me out and put me lay me on Philip Street. But it was just it's so intense.
Well, yeah, I haven't interrupted you because you created the atmosphere as what would happen there, and you know basically what you've described. Tory's been put on his knees and executed in front of you, and the trauma that's associated from there, and then that time delay and you're thinking what's going to happen? Where does it go from there? And you're standing beside this person that's just murdered someone right in front of you, so I can understand your concern.
And then a police have broken windows and throwing flash grenades in there to distract and create chaos. And in knowing the scene and knowing the scene very well because I did the crime scene is it would have been so noisy and things would have been echoing and it would have been just chaos for you. And then when the police have come in, I'm anticipating this still not one hundred percent clarification where there's a bomb that's going to go off, So there's an urgency to get you
out of there, that's right. So all this is going through your mind at the time when you were actually taken out into Martin Place or where you got out, did you have time to process what you had just seen and been for.
You know, probably not really like I, for example, like I didn't know where my mother was, lost sight of mum and all of that, and so I was on Phillips Street, lighting on the road where they put me, and it was just so silent Gary. The city was quiet, really quiet, but at the same time there was boots on the pavement and the running and shouting and you know, things are going on and it's all happening, but it
was at the same time quiet, you know. And of course my brain's exploded with ten trillion things, and I'm thinking, oh my god, I can't believe I have survived. And then my next thought is, Mum's definitely dead. Mum's definitely dead. There's no way anyone could have survived that. And then I'm like, oh, how am I going to tell my
brother and sister? You know that Mum was with me, and you know, so your thoughts are crazy, and at the same time, I'm thinking about the fact that this awful thing has just happened, and how are we going to get some sort of good out of what's happened? Because I was freaked out about that, how are we possibly going to recover as a society. And also, you know, I was very mindful of like looking for that good what good thing can we possibly get out of what's
just happened. And I was terrified really that there'd be race rights in the street. I remember thinking at the time, Oh man, this is going to be bad tomorrow morning. Yeah, you know, like I really that was. But you think when those kind of things happened that when the disaster comes to you, you kind of like thinking layers. You know, you're thinking with your body and you're in pain. And then and I was convinced just going to lose my foot because it was pretty big hole at the time.
Okay, so that was a bullet fragment that.
Yeah, it turned out to be just a shrapnel from a police bullet, and I've got shrapnel in various parts of my body, had caught some in my belly, and you know, just then the big one that hit my foot and you know, it's funny how things work, you know. But I have a walking stick and I've had that for a little while and that was because of MS. And I have something they call drop foot, so that means that the foot doesn't quite work the way it should. So I had this drop foot and it happened to
be my left foot. But the foot that I took the shrapnel to was my left foot. So you know, from my point of view, I have to say that was amazing, amazing grace that I got hit in my dodgy foot. I mean, if I'd been hit in my right foot, yeah, we're in life much more complicated, so you know. I mean it's still, you know, hideous scar and quite bad, but you know, and impacts on my balance and stuff, but really could have been a whole lot worse.
And you know, yeah, what point in time did you find out that your mum was safe?
Well, when I was on Philip Street, I started to yell out, well the first thing actually I did. It sounds peculiar, but had a little song and I just sang amazing grace to myself. Thought nobody was around. Of course, there's heaps of people.
You can do anything. You want to do, and no one's going to cause you crazy after what you've been through.
But anyway, so had a little song. I was just so grateful, you know. And then and then I'm lying there and the pain is increasing, and then this lovely lady come over. She was a policewoman and she held my hand. She said, you wouldn't leave me, and she had her flat flat jacket on and a helmet on and everything. And then the medic came and gave me some pain relief, and I said to the medic, it's just my foot. Don't have to worry anything else, you know.
And but of course it wasn't just my foot. But anyway, in the moment, and then I'm sitting there and I remember saying to her, I remember saying, where's my mum? And I think in the moment she actually thought I was saying I want my mom, like I want my mother, but actually I was saying, no, no, Mum was in the cafe with me, and I just need to know where
she is, what's happened to her. And so of course then the words going around, where where's you know, blah blah, and they had taken mom out on she said a blue tarp. They ran her down Martin Place because, of course, what we didn't understand because I think we'd all figured that there was no bomb, but the police didn't know that, and so they're reacting like there's a bomb and so.
But anyway, so this and that, and then I was just about to get into the ambulance and they said we've got your mother, and I'm like, oh, thank goodness, They've got her. And then I thought, what does that mean They've got her to what stage she? And you know, But anyway, so I went to Prince of Wale's and Mum went to RPA.
Okay, so and you were in there for three months? Yeah, okay, so it was significant physical injuries, but also I would imagine mental injuries. When did you find out Katrina the Dawson was killed?
You know, I did not know that Katrina was in there. When they originally told me that one of the other hostages had died, I made the assumption. I jumped to the assumption that one of the girls who had gone had taken into the kitchen had actually been killed. And so I had a little bit of confusion initially about that. But you know, and then of course when people explained.
And then of course, you know, because I wasn't watching media in hospital just but my friends were coming in and telling me what was happening in Martin Place and what the media was saying. And you know, it was very difficult in those early hours after because there was one media report apparently that went that Tory Johnson had attacked the gunman and you know that's why, you know he up dying. At the time, I was infuriated by
that misinformation. And because Tory was a hero, he didn't need some fabricated story, which was a great shame, but it caused me personally some angst because I know what happened, and it's like but then I was aware that his family were being told this hero story which wasn't true. There was no need for.
That, but to need to be told. Yeah, and like the public pouring out of sympathy and worrying about it being divisive. I've never seen a situation like that, and I've never felt an environment like that. I've done a lot of crime scenes. But after they got you out, we went there to do the crime scene, and I was saying to you the other day that when I went into the Link cafe, and we had it secured, so there were many people inside there, but what you had just described was left in situ, so we saw
what had gone on. There was a feeling of fear and emotion in that building.
You know.
You talk about premonitions, and I've tried to process what that was about, because I've been to a lot of crime scenes and some are worse than others. But I think it was because we were all watching it play out in public. Yes, and then when it resolved in such a tragic way, going in there, I could almost
feel your presence, like the hostages presence. How scary it would have been in that environment at the time, I can only imagine, and sitting here and you describing what you went through and knowing the scene as well as I do. It's just a horrific, horrific thing to have been through.
Yeah, And I think that's why it matters so much to the broader public, because this happened to all of us, because we weren't just you all weren't just sitting idly. You were watching the television and you were part of that. And whenever I speak about it publicly, absolutely everyone can tell me their story and I'm happy to hear their story because it's our collective story, you know, of where you were that day, what you were doing, how we
were all living our ordinary lives. And then it changed. And you know, terrorism is real violence. You know, we deal with it on an every day basis.
Well, brought it to the doorstep, didn't it, in a way? And I think the lead up to Christmas, like we all remember, I remember when it happened. I'm thinking, but this is inconvenient. I was seeing the sun that I hadn't seen for ages, and spending a couple of days
with him, I didn't get to see him. And then the flowers, the flowers at the crime scene, I can honestly say, and I've said it to you before the interview, I've never been in a situation where one of the one of the things I had to manage was the amount of flowers and floral tributes that were put there, that was pouring out of grief by a whole city.
You know, I have to tell you that because I was quite distressed about the idea of race riots in this and you know, the early days afterwards, like I'm thinking anything could happen, and talking about it with friends and family and praying about it. Like someone told me about a hashtag ride with me, and the idea that if you know, especially for Muslim women who are in their hijab, if they're on public transport, you know, that they could reach out and other women would sit with them.
And that brought me deep comfort. And the flowers. The flowers were amazing and I didn't get to see the money photographs, but just knowing that that was happening. Just friends telling me about going into Martin Place and about how quiet it was and how respectful everybody was, and you know, crying and the collective distress, but just how there was such a strong sense of unity and community.
I can't tell you. I'd say to people, thank you so much, you know for that, because when I was in hospital, it kind of made me just go, I can just relax here and get better, you know, there was nothing to sort of worry about because I was freaked out about that and thinking what can I do to stop something happening?
You know, it was good that the city or the nation reacted reacted that way, and we taught the flowers, but the amount of people there, it was literally difficult to get into the crime soon then going backwards and forwards and people they're so respectful and.
Just, and I thank our country for that, you know, makes all the difference.
Yeah, there was a lot of pain there, physical injuries, emotional injuries. Talk us through that because you carry, so you've got to carry something.
Yeah, well, okay, so my physical injuries where there's a hole in my.
Foot that hurts.
Ah, yeah, and I've got some shrapnel in and around and the shrapnel that I got still got little fragments of strap.
Sounds pretty cool. I've got some shrapnel, yeah, when you go through the right.
Yeah, that's right exactly. I say that a lot actually anyway, Yeah, so shrapnell in my foot, which is like fine pencil sharpenings. So a few things here, two things nurses. Right, So I finally we finally get in through emergency at Prince of Wales and I'm greeted by emergency nurse there and so I say to it, right, just tell me straight my foot. Do you think I'm going to lose it? And she looks at my foot and she says, I've seen worse, And in that moment, I went, that's right,
don't catastrophize, Louisa, she's seen worse. It's going to be okay. So we're going through that. And then, of course I didn't realize, and this is peculiar, but I had also been hit in my belly, shrapnel in my belly, So that was really weird. And there's only recently, like about two weeks ago, that I found out that when you've got various injuries around your body, you only feel one point of pain at a time. So anyway, you know, my foot was in serious pain and I didn't even
feel this in my belly. Right and so I'm with the nurse, the emergency nurse, and we've done all the doctors, have checked in this and that and blah blah.
And the.
Middle Eastern crime scene cops are there and we're talking and they're recording me because I'm going to ten a dozen because I'm thinking I need to tell them everything that I can remember in case I forget when I have my surgery. Blah blah. Anyway, this is all happening in the emergency room right there. And then the nurse says to me, so, Louisa, we're just going to cut off your dress, and I went no, no, no, you're not. You're not going to cut off my dress. I really
like this dress. It's my best black dress. You know, go anywhere girls, we'll understand, perfect black dress for everything. We're visiting a lawyer, appropriate that I wore a black dress away. She says, yes, it's protocol. It's what we're going to like what you're going to cut off my dress? So really upset about it. And so I turned to these Middle Eastern cops, right and I say to them, you can't let her cut off my dress. And they say, whoa, no,
we're not interested. Typical cops. Where's a cop when you need one? They just like, yeah, exactly. They disappeared anyway. So she starts to cut off my dress and you're going cut, cut, cutting, I'm you know, and we're going up and it's going up and over my head and then I'll help her lift it over my head. And then as I do that, I my hands and whoa, they're full of blood all over my hands and what's that?
I'm thinking, what's that? And she like suddenly goes, oh, right, okay, lie down, blah blah, checking my Oh there you go. You got two yeah, shrapnel we had that little moment that nurse and she's looking at me and I'm looking at her, and she knows that I know that she was right. She had to cut off my dress and that was really great. But then then she says, I got to cut off your bra and nickers, and I'm like,
no way, I just come back from America. There's a brand new right, and she's just this is what we do. And I'm thinking someone's got to do something about this. But anyway, that all said, she was right, and I had shrapnel in my belly. But then I just tell you this story. So this is what happened. So you know, when you've had surgery, the doctor comes around and visits
you the next day. So I'd had surgery at about seven o'clock in the morning by the time it all was said and done, and the doctor must have come
to visit me around you know, midday, one o'clock. Anyway, so she comes to visit me, and she's lovely, this doctor, and she says, oh, Louisa, And by this stage, I've got this great big water around my foot and you know, patches of different things everywhere, and she says, oh, Louisa, like this, and I went, oh, no, I did lose my foot after all, that just the way she said it. And she said, no, no, Louisa, We're so sorry, so sorry, but we couldn't get the shrap and all out of
your belly. And I went, oh. She said, yes, it's about the size of a long grain blown up piece of rice and few there and we just couldn't get it out of your belly. So I said to her, seeing, you know, like she was so serious, I just said, oh, gee, doc, shame you couldn't have done little LiPo while you were down there, right, And yeah, I thought she'd laugh, and no, no, she finger and she says, Louisa, your fat saved your life. And I'm like, pardon me, what did you just say?
You know, because what doctor says that?
Right?
And she says, Louisa, if that shrapnel had gotten into your abdomen and your organ, she said, things would have been very different. So, you know, I just had that little moment in the hospital there with that doctor, and I thought to myself, my god, how many years I've been trying to lose that extra ten or so twenty kilos, right, but here it is that saved my life, you know, the very thing that I have loathed about myself.
Doesn't it to chow a lesson in life?
Exactly right?
There's a reason who was meant to be I don't it.
Never cursed to Quilo again? Ten years of freedom, not worried about needs that.
Well, look a game. We laugh about it, but you've got to laugh about it like it impacts in so many ways. Now, that was shrapnel. I know. When I went through the crime scene, there was so much concern from a police point of view and trying to ascertain what went on, and concern from the tactical guys that I put up front. Heroes is a term that's used
too often with policing things. They're doing a job, but in the circumstances, and I have had involvement in tactical policing in the circumstances for them to have to go into a situation like that, immediate action after what happened
to Tory would be confronting. And they didn't know whether they were going in there with the bombs, and they went in there without blinking and eye when they came out and they had done their job, They've taken out the terrorist and they found out that the hostage had died Katrina in that situation, they were obviously devastated, and we had ballistics, the coroner come through the crime scene. We left it all in the in situe. Corona come through the crime scene, ballistics, and I think it was
about a day later or whatever. Then the ballistics called me back to the Sydney Police Center and showed me something that he'd seen in the way that the bullets were fired and all that, and it looked like it was shrapnel from a ricochet that had hit Katrina. And we had to keep the integrity of the investigation protect that because we were doing separate things. As we've mentioned Angelo Mamolo, who did a great job running the whole investigation.
And I know it was a relief to the tactical blokes that went in there that wasn't from a direct hit. And I'm sure they'd be feeling that you received shrapnel. You're the one that was in there, you know, the chaos of the situation. What's your thoughts on the police that went in that day.
Yeah, you know, first of all, I'm astounded the hindsight that everybody has an opinion and I sort of say, you weren't really there in the moment, how can you have an opinion, But you know, that's the way it is. Everyone does have an opinion, and so in the moment. A few things about those cops, right, So the tactical guys. First of all, they were there all day. They did not There wasn't a change of shift. They were there all day. They were waiting with us, and just knowing
that they were there was very comforting. But they waited in the hot sun, you know, and I just and then of course when they came in and they rescued us, which is what we'd been waiting for all day. Finally they came in, and the overwhelming insanity of being in that space. If you imagine that, it was like Hawaii five oh and one cop goes in and shoots one
bullet and the bad guy's dead. And somewhere in my crazy brain, that's maybe what I thought was going to happen, But of course that's not reality, and what I didn't know until the inquest. So my opinions are informed by the inquest and what actually happened. But you know, Monas
did not go down. He just did not go down, and so they had to keep shooting to take him down, and they had to keep shooting to take him down because they thought he had a bomb, and someone had mistakenly thought they saw a wire going down his shirt sleeve, a long sleeve shirt sleeve, and therefore that meant that he had some sort of button thing that but if they did not take him out, then he could pop
the bomb. Right, So that makes Once I heard that information at the inquest, I suddenly understood why there was so took so long. The shooting just went on so intensely, so logically, that makes total sense to me. And I think that, you know a few things. I don't know that the general public really understand that. Actually one of the one of the tou guys was hit. Officer B
was hit. Now, he was hit with shrapnel as he was coming into the cafe with monas like directly firing at that and he took shrapnel to the side of his temple. Now, for the life of me, I don't know how anyone takes, you know, effectively a bullet to the side of your temple and you don't die. He didn't die. That's miraculous. But you know, it costs these cops, you know, physically and psycho emotionally as well. They're just
humans like us, right, even with all the training. But you know, so with regard to those guys from right up front, I remember, Mum and I just were poor Angela, when can we meet those guys who rescued us? Can we meet them?
Please?
Can we meet them? And we'd ask that every second time we spoke to him formatt anyway, But of course that's not how things work with cops. And it took me a long time before I met them or some of them, And you know, we have nothing but admiration for them and gratitude and total respect, you know, like it's it's hostages are running out right and they're running in. They're going in and my god, what kind of crazy brave does that take?
Well, I know that will mean a lot to them, and the fact that you've said it to them, but it's good that said publicly. Admiration and respect and I think that's how it should be described. And they all pay a price for that. I haven't seen a police officer involved in the shooting that hasn't paid the price, one one way or the other. And it's scrutinized and it's scrutinized why people with benefit of hindsight that weren't there.
And yeah, I was hearing just on the grape vine about the guys before they went in or when they were there, they were finding their families saying mightn't see them again, but they still went in.
Yes, So that is that's what I mean, like, who are these people?
Yeah, we are out there, and that we're lucky that they're out there. The inquest the answered some questions for it. Was it traumatical, was it beneficial in the scene, and you had Michael Barnes as the as a coroner who had a good reputation, a no nonsense type of person and probably the best person for looking into it. Where you satisfied that the questions were being answered that you needed answered.
No, not really. The inquest was for me quite traumatic actually. So originally I went to the inquest to pay my respects to the families because I hadn't had a chance because I was in the hospital when that, you know, Tory and Katrina were buried. But I wanted to do that. And what happened to me was once I started to go to the inquest, I realized that this was the only way I was really ever going to know what really happened, and I certainly couldn't rely on secondhand information
that one gets through the media. So I started to go every day. So I virtually went every day, not quite but virtually. It was an arduous time because it took so long that inquest, and the inquest was trying to be all things to all people. You know it really, you know, an inquest purpose is to find out the cause of death for people who've died, and there were three people who died in that siege. But of course the rest of the country was looking for something more.
I mean, we were looking for what possibly if this happened again, what improvements could be made, all of that kind of thing, but also trying to understand how how did this happen? And so there I was left with several significant questions post inquest.
Yeah, say what they are?
Well, a few things. So, first of all, because I have connection with the New South Wales Police, I have a lot to do with them. I've spoken at several functions and different things and training and all that kind of stuff. So and I'm very grateful for that opportunity to share like that with them.
And.
Just as an aside to that, it absolutely takes the siege. The link siege has taken a toll on the police collectively, because without fail, whenever I've gone to share with police, someone in the room will say, Louisa, we're sorry. You know, it wasn't meant to be like this. And there's a collective grief amongst our police. And I feel for them, you know, because it's not their fault, you know. But anyway, at the inquest, it was fascinating to see how it
played out. It was all done through in segments, different things about Monas and then about the cafe, and then about you know, and then about the police. So there was a lot of discussion, as there was in the media, a lot of discussion about the police and what went wrong. And we have to say things went wrong, you know, But I can say I know things have changed, you know, because of my dealings, and I'm very grateful to know that they've changed the way the negotiators work. For example,
there's been significant changes there. There's been things that have come out of the lint. For example, one of the hardest things, of course was for the police dealing with the hostage survivors and families after the siege in the immediate aftermath, that was very challenging and hard for everybody. So now as I understand, the police have something called flows, which is family liaison officers who are dedicated in those
kind of circumstances. For example, I imagine that would have happened for Bondai, where in those circumstances where someone's died, the families are given a one point of contact with the police they call flows. And that's a great thing because I know that it was hard, you know, because the nature of policing you can't just pop off and hold the hand of people who in trauma from an event late.
I think that's great initiative that's come in, And you're quite right that has come in and there were problems there and I can speak from personal experience from that particular incident that there were so many victims, so many families, and yeah, I was doing the crime scene, but I was allocated to speak to a family and stay in contact with this hostage and things just it was on the magnitude that we didn't understand or hadn't prepared for. And having been a homicide detective for as long as
I have. I know the importance of that keeping those lines of communication, and you're looking at it from a hostage victim of crime situation, the importance of having someone that you can find out what's going on or what's the processes. Who can I ask a question? And without having someone that you know you can pick the phone up and speak to, you get lost in the world.
So that is a positive that's come from it. You mentioned the negotiators, and I know they got put through the ring or over what occurred there, and hopefully the improvements have played out from there, because if things happen, and I keep prefacing it with benefit the hindsight, we're all clever when we look back. But if there were mistakes made, let's own them and improve if we can.
Yeah, I think that that's true. And that observation I made with regard to the police was seeing how they quickly got about making those improvements. It was very encouraging for me because it's really easy to be down on the police, but actually, yeah, the work they've done, you know, but it's perpetual, whether it's us individually as individuals or it is our institutions. We always always have to be on the board for improvement and changes and embrace that
as hard as it can be. But you know, it wasn't. Of course, we had opportunity to give mister Barnes a victim impact statement, even though the inquest wasn't about the people who survived. They're about the people who died. So, you know, I think in hindsight there may have been we needed something that was between an inquest and a royal commission to address the entire gauntlet of what happened at the Lend. The inquest was not big enough. It
was necessary, but not big enough. In our expectations were too high for what a you know, an institution or a function that the inquest could provide. So in hindsight, I hope that there'd be you know, maybe it doesn't need necessarily a royal commission, but it needs something that's just a little bit bigger. I don't know, not being a legal person, but so you know, I sort.
Of okay, parliamentary inquiry or something. And I understand what you're saying, and you obviously understand the nature of inquest, the parameters of a narrow manic cause and time and location of death. That's yes, really what the coroner is there to put them. Maybe the expectations were going to look wider, yes, than what they had the power to do. Any other things that have flowed on from your experience what you're doing now, And yeah.
Well, you know, the inquest led me a bit gobsmacked, not being a legal person to understand what was happening with the DPP And in actual fact, I still don't know why. We don't know why man Heroon Monus was even out on bail. That man had approximately forty three different sexual assault charges against him. So why is a man with forty three different sexual assaults even out on bail that he could then commit the lent atrocity? So, you know, like that is a big question for me.
We've not looked there. We've been so busy looking at the police. We didn't turn our minds to looking about why he was really out on bail. It was discussed, but it was hedged. There's a funny little legal thing that happened at the inquest that I don't really understand. It's a mystery to me. But you know, there's something called client confidentiality, So of course in this instance, the police were the clients of the DPP. So therefore there's
a client confidentiality that's right, exactly privilege. So however, the police, in the spirit of the inquest, said that they were happy to negate that or surrender that privilege and just let everything out. However, the DPP chose to not do that.
They insisted that client confidentiality be held. So I was confused about why an institution like the DPP that's there to look after us, one would think why they would do that and why we could not dig in a little deeper and understand what was it that allowed that man to be out on bail? So was there an issue with a judiciary? I mean, excuse me, God forbid
that I should question them? What do I know? But you know, seriously, if we're going to be transparent, if we're going to actually suck the guts out of what happened in that search situation and get whatever benefit we possibly can, then surely we must be brave enough to ask those questions.
Well, Louisa, and I'll say this in a general sense because I'm a coward and I won't be specific, but you know, when it comes to legal systems looking at themselves or critiquing themselves. There's a certain what I call intellectual arrogance that comes about that. Why would you dare question what we do? And so I think that plays out and I'm talking in a general sense, but it's
a fair question. You ask what man Monus was doing out on bail, because when the incident happened, when it very first hit the news, we're in the homicide office and one of the young female detectives said that's man Monas were charged him in relation to the murder of his ex partner, and that's where he was identified first. So there are a lot of questions. And I suppose you're the victim of these actions, and so I think
you've got to write the question. But yeah, when they're looking in the into the court systems, and look, I take it you're a person that respects the court system. I do too. We've got to have a system. But again, if it can be improved, let's improve it. Then it's very easy. It's almost like a sport beating up on the police, and police are robust enough to accept that. But if the problems are external to the police, maybe we should look at that as well.
So yeah, I would hope, you know, we are ten years now since the Lint and we have not moved on this issue, and one wonders, you know, what is this about? Who doesn't take sexual assault seriously enough to keep someone like that in prison? So we have you know, imagine if we'd learned that lesson at the LINT. You know, serious, this kind of crime is.
The potential consequences from exactly.
Okay, So you know, I am keen about that. If there's ever anyone who who's brave enough to stand up and start to ask those questions, I'm just you know, nobody, and I have no legal skill, but I think it's still out there. It hangs in the air for us.
Yeah, well I wouldn't. I'm not going to agree with you on being that nobody. You're articulating the horrific experience you've been through with some genuine emotions, but consideration for everyone involved, not just yourself, and that says a lot about you. Are you advocating for anything else, you do anything else on the back of what your experience is?
So you know, I'm like so blessed, Like I said, you know, like I really had that euphoric experience, and that has to do with the fact that we started the Luis a Hope fun for nurses at Prince of Wal's Hospital back then, and that was my involvement with the nurses is happy. I'm so happy. It's like a privilege, so privileged to be involved with nurses. The incredible nurses
could rule the world. I'm just saying anyway. But of course now I'm more directly involved with something called VOTER, which is Victims of Terror Australia, which is for citizens of Australia and New Zealand to come together with regard who have survived terrorist attacks, to be a support group for each other. So we've been working very hard on that. So the launch has just happened recently and so I'm
very excited about that. For you know, this is when you are a victim of terror, you become the state because the terrorist is not interested in you as an individual. They're hitting the state and so it's completely different actually to other acts of violence. So the expectation on you is different and a whole lot of different things. But so therefore, how we help and support thevictims of terror and let's face it, the world we live in, it's not going to stop.
The link Cafe was a small incident that it might pile into insignificance in potentially what can occur when you're talking terrorism. For the support group that you're setting up, If people are interested, how do they find it?
Yes, well they can find us online. You know we're at a vota voter and so victims of terror Australia they can find us there and certainly they can go to my website if they like, just to make contact because we want to reach out. We want to know other people who've been in this circumstance so that we
can be supportive of each other. Myself personally, I have a very keen interest in how we can serve the broader community and for those who have been victims and survivors can then reach out and speak into the community with regard to these kind of things for our social
cohes and our multicultural nation that we are. And of course people like Jill Hicks, brilliant, amazing Australian, South Australian, she was in the London bombing attacks, So you know people like Jill and of course the amazing Alpha Chang and.
Different people amazing that's.
Right, and so you think, well this has happened to me, what do you do with it? You know, all things in life have a reason, I believe, and so therefore, what do you do with this experience? You can be owned by the experience, or you can own the experience and you can work out a way to turn it
for good. And for me personally, that's been a blessing to be able to do that in just small ways, but you know, just to encourage other people and to not let ourselves go down down the hole and the whole of course is racial hatred and all of that kind of division. Australia is not that kind of place. But I mean we have to actively and deliberately make a way to do not be that place, because be very easy to be convinced to be fearful or angry.
But you know, actually, no, we can be another way, we can be our true selves.
You know, well, I am not going to add to that because I can't. I can't deliver it as articulately as you had. And I've just got to say, like you inspire me to be through what you've been through and come out with this attitude and the way that you're approaching life. Louise, I hope you're a good person. You are a good person. I've really enjoyed the chat. You have taken me into something, into a situation that
a deeply personal situation. But I think anyone that's listening's got a now clearer idea of what went on in those sixteen hours of terror and the horror of it. But I also think they'll find some inspiration in the way that you've coped with what you've been through and what you're focusing on now. So it's been an absolute pleasure having you on Eye Catch Killers. Thank you, cheers well.
Louisa took us right inside the linked cafe suage. That was her explaining what happened in there and the emotions as she went through the highs and layers, thinking she was going to be killed, thinking that's the last moment in her life just really blew me away. But more importantly is her attitude for what she came out after being a hostage in the terrorst situation and the outlook she has on life. I think she's a really beautiful lady and I love talking to her.