Diversion podcasts, Born next next and only going into met the government will be like I did that. We just said we found out how this already noted. It was going on the way back on the bus ride, like two hour bus ride. Bus had a leak in, it was raining, rain, got bustings in the head. The only thee was fun because we were point another. We're making jokes on win another and having a good time. You know we always do with a basketball here. That's that's
the only found fight about it. That was Kobe Bryant with his friend and confident Jeremy Treatment from the spring of talking about one of the last obligations that Kobe had to fulfill during his time as a student and a basketball star at Lower Merion High School. He and his teammates and coaches had taken a bus trip out to Harrisburg, the state capital, to meet Governor Tom Ridge and to receive a special acknowledgement from the state legislature.
It was one of Kobe's last opportunities to be a kid among other kids before almost everything in his life changed forever. Nearly twenty four years later, on the afternoon of Sunday, January, I was driving home from my in law's house. My wife had gone grocery shopping. Our sons, Evan and Gabe were in the car with me. Evan was eight at the time, Gabe was five. At a stoplight, I picked up my phone and checked my Twitter feed
Britney moves in this Sunday afternoon. Five time NBA champion former League MVP Kobe Bryant died earlier this afternoon in Los Angeles and a helicopter crashed. The news reports are just coming in among multiple victims. Kobe Bryant on that helicopter. We're gonna have. Ramona Shelbern joined us now from Los Angeles. She is what Kobe Bryant had died. I actually said what out loud in the car, and Evan got a little worried, wondering what was wrong. I played it off,
told him, oh, nothing. I didn't bring it up until we had gotten home ten minutes later and I parked the car. We are coming back on the air with new details and the tragic death of NBA legend Kobe Bryant. ABC News confirming the five time NBA champion for the Los Angeles Lakers was among five people killed when a helicopter crashed and caught fire in southern California. Authorities in Los Angeles County are holding a news coup. I off
handedly told Evan what had happened. I was trying not to make a big deal out of it, Like he had just gotten off the school bus and I was asking him how his day had been. Besides, we had to hustle. He had to get changed and he had to head right out again. He had, of all things, a basketball game. As Evan was putting his uniform on, though, I had to make a phone call. I searched my contacts for Jeremy Treatment's number. Tell me about the day he got. What were you doing that goes on the
phone with you. I'm Mike Sealsky and from Diversion Podcasts. This is I am cobD wat sne wht Slee to Create myself Saigned signs up and create yourself. Say nice, go on, create yourself. You gotta line of fren great minds, but we ain't line. Tell him that's getting time, Episode ten, Remembering Greatness. Two things happen when someone famous dies, especially when that person dies before their time. The first is something we all do. If that figure meant something to you,
like Kobe meant something to so many. We mark the moment we burn into our brains exactly where we were, what we were doing when we learned that this person was gone. Millions of people did that. When Kobe Bryant died, I happened to be in a car with my kids. Maybe you were at church, or at your daughters swim meet, or sitting with your feet up in your living room. Doesn't matter. You don't forget it. But there's something else, and it happens only to people who knew the person.
You review your own life and you try to figure out where you fit into their life. You remember the best times you had together, the hardest times, the times that made you smile and laugh, the times that made you furious. You remember the last time you saw them, the last time you spoke, the last time they crossed your mind. Aren't tell him. Kobe's first agent went through that process when Kobe died. At that point, tell him
hadn't represented Kobe in about twenty years. He actually retired from being an agent and became an executive with the Detroit Pistons, And it was in Detroit where he and Kobe talked in person for the last time during Kobe's final season with the Lakers. We certainly had our you know, issues where we disagreed, but I have to say that in the end he was always great to me and my family and my kids. And then, you know, five years ago write something, Chop of the Pistons called to
congratulate me. And when I saw him in Detroit as last year, my first year of the businesses, last year playing with the Lakers, came up to before the game, gave me a hug, thanking for everything, and you know, I couldn't have been nicer. And he asked me if I was happy what I was doing and and I said, you know how life is. You have to always change and adapt and challenge yourself. And I said, you're gonna do the same thing as you go into your nice
chapter and I'll never forget. He said, yeah, my next chapter will even be greater, and they ran off further. John Paul tell him had known Kobe a long time. Kobe's friends from Lower Marion had known him even longer from spending the last year and a half talking to them from my book and for this podcast, I can tell you the Kobe's death affected those people who knew him when he was a kid in a different way
than it did just about anyone else. I'm not suggesting that Kobe's Lakers teammates or his friends from the NBA weren't profoundly saddened by his death. I'm not saying that at all. But the connection between Kobe and people like Jeremy Treatment and his high school coach Greg Downer, and his classmates and teammates from Lower Marian was something else Entirely. They knew him before he was a star. They bonded with him when he occupied a space somewhere closer to
our own, before he became a star. Then they watched him become a star. It's like they were friends with Peter Parker before that. Radioactive Spider bidden listen to his friend Guy Stewart, his teammate at Lower Marian, talk about what it was like to find out that Kobe had died. Guy was getting calls and text messages, dozens of them from people who knew him and knew Kobe, but he
didn't want to believe them. And then I remember the moment I see it on CNN, and I'm like, I started like, I'm like my body shaking, I can't like focus on anything. It has been confirmed CNN is able to tell you now that NBA star Kobe Bryant was on board that helicopter and is now dead at the age of forty one. Or Christine Brooke, I'm like texting everybody. I call a sister. She doesn't answer, and I'm like,
all right, well, like what's what's going on? Not to say that she always answers my calls or whatever like that, but Texas cousin no response. I'm like, this can't be true. And I'm just like stuck in my seat and I just couldn't think of anything. And you know, once they
confirmed it, it was just like complete just breakdown. You know, like you expect to see this guy who was like Superman to everybody that he that that knew him personally, even you know, even if you didn't know him person you just think, like, that's not supposed to happen to a guy like that, That's not supposed to happen to his daughter, you know, and you almost questioned God's plan,
like how like how could this happen? Do you expect like the blame the crash and he's like holding everybody in his arms and they come out and he's fine, you know, or just like the story is just just isn't true. And I still can't believe it to this day. I still can't believe that he's gone to this day. Um, but yeah, I remember that day like like it was yesterday.
Emery Dabney, the point guard and Lower Marrion State championship team, the kid who had joined Kobe for those scrimmages and pickup games at St. Joseph's and Episcopal during the summer, was doing pretty much the same thing I was doing on that day. He was going grocery shopping with his wife. It was so crazy because I had a friend who had found an old picture of me and Kobe and it just text me picture of us maybe like an hour before. We're driving home and I get a cough.
My friend who lives in l A and he's kind of scene out there. Well, one of our teammates from college actually, and he told me, he's like, yeah, Kobe died up the helicopter crash. Like you're you're a line, there's no way look at the Hollida. He's like, I'm telling you and this is before the news of broke, so he's like Emory and he's kind of a prankster. So I was like, you're you're full of ship on it. There's no way in the world that that happened. So
he's like, Imry, I'm serious. And I got calls from people like I'm telling you. So we kept driving. I'm like, this be So my wife is looking on her phone for the news and we don't see anything. Calling back, I'm like, there's nothing on the news. You're you're you know, you're full of ship, and like maybe like forty or five minutes later, the news broke. Jeremy Treatment was the
guy I knew best was close to Kobe. When I called him that day, I just wanted to touch base with him, to see what he knew and how he was doing. He was at Jefferson University in the East
Falls neighborhood of Philadelphia. He was overseeing a high school basketball tournament there and a big game was about to start between German Town Academy and Newman Garrett, two of the top teams in the Philadelphia about all this and all of a sudden, and I was getting his text, and the first text came from my friend Jeff Isais is probably the biggest jokester I know, so how ironic He's the biggest jokes right now. It's it And it's like, I see this little image from t MC. It says
Kobe Bryant eyes in helicopter crash. I got twelve people around me, so it's not like I was at home, just you know, sitting there. It could be glued to it, and I'm like, well, like like I I didn't think it was real. And then I got another one and another one and I think you called it's called I'm like, oh my god, this is just happening. This is this is real. Listen carefully to this next part. There were children playing in a pool in a house near Jeremy's
while I was recording him. In the background, you can hear one of the kids crying. I think of that every time I listen to what Jeremy says. Next, I broke down for a minute talking to this guy del Greco Wilson and who I knew, and this other guy came over. I didn't know who he was, and I I put my head on the shoulder and I started to a complete stranger. To this day, I don't know who it was. Hey, this is Mike Sealsky, host and
writer of I Am Kobe. This podcast project came out of my work on a related book called The Rise Kobe Bryant and the Pursuit of Immortality. If you want to explore other parts of Kobe's story, check out The Rise. It's not just a book version of the podcast. I dive deeper into some of the topics covered in this series, and even some that we don't cover at all. Kobe's upbringing, his family, his identity, his effect on his friends and teammates, his journey into the n b A, and his earliest
days with the Lakers. The Rise Kobe Bryant and the Pursuit of Immortality is out now. Just head over to the Rise of Kobe book dot com and you can buy it from any of your favorite retailers. That's The Rise of Kobe Book dot com. Thanks. A month after Kobe's death, a memorial service was held for him and his daughter Gianna in Los Angeles at Staples Center, the Lakers home arena. Jeremy and Greg Downer flew out to l A to attend the service for both of them.
There was an odd feeling in being there. They still couldn't believe Kobe was gone, still couldn't reconcile and come to terms with his death. They woke up early on the morning of the service, and the scene around the arena shocked them back in the sorrow. I think you're feeling a little bit like the Enturig guys, you know, driving around l A and then all of a sudden you get to the Forum and like, I mean, the
Staples Center was like, oh my god. And you see all these people with Kobe stuff and Kobe flags and Laker flag and Kobe shirts and a boy, this is not gonna be easy. And U I'm glad I was there. It's all I can say. I was glad I was there. It was surreal. It was just too hard to believe inside, as one speaker after another paid tribute to Kobe and Gianna, his wife Vanessa, Shaquille O'Neill, Michael Jordan's when Kobe, a
piece of me died. And as I look in this arena, across the globe, a piece of you die, else you wouldn't be here. Those are the memories that we have to live with, and we learn from Greg Downer thought about the attribute that to him always seemed to define Kobe best. The quality of the Kobe embodied was that, either on a basketball court or in life, he could
not would not be stopped. When he wanted something, he pursued it until he got it Downer believed that Kobe could not be defeated, even by death, and he believed it right up until he heard something during the memorial service. You know, I heard this round of applause, and you know it was it was shock in the corner. Somebody was entering the building, and part of me was like, you know, here he is, Like you know, all of a sudden, he's alive or he um he recovered from
the helicopter crash and Superman is back. But I totally agree with you that he had an indestructible way about him, and I definitely need to feel the same way. As the ceremony ended, Jeremy and Greg caught a glimpse of Kobe's parents, Joe and Pam, sitting near the front, a massive people around them. Neither Jeremy nor Greg had seen
or talked to Joe and Pam since Kobe's death. In fact, neither of them had seen or talked to them in years, but they had a chance now and they made their way towards I'm Pam's like, Joe, it's Jeremy, Joe, it's Jeremy, Joe. It's Jeremy. We journey saw me like had a thick smile. I'm like, huh. The hug was thirty seconds long, and it's like just it goes to show you, like like he just knows his family, Like yeah, I'm not Seaquille Emeial, but like it's just somebody trust for twenty five years,
who had Kobe's best interest at heart. We we knew love. Kobe and I hadn't seen in a long time, and it was especial and he told Greg the same thing. But he just said, we made a kid for the world. And I'm just like I had to. I had to wait till I left the building, until her I could start to cry. I did. Pam was telling both of us, don't cry, don't cry. I'm leaving, don't cry, and it was this very immergtional I didn't amount Joe recently, and he did right back. He was wishing us all well.
It was very sad. Of course, at the beginning of this episode, I made an assertion about the things we do when someone famous dies, the people who knew that person try to figure out where they fit into his life. That's all Kobe's friends and mentors from his teenage years have been doing since his death. They've been weighing where they fit in Kobe's life and where Kobe still fits
in theirs when they think of him. What comes to mind first for Greg Downer, it's Kobe's relationship with Brinn Downer, Greg's daughter. They were close. Greg has several photos of Kobe holding Brick hugging her. I'm glad that they got to me, and uh, you know, I'm glad that Brand got to feel greatness. And as Brand has gotten older, she understands a little bit more as to who Kobe was. And sometimes we'll just watch some highlights of him. And you know, Kobe had four girls. I I only have one.
What makes this really difficult is the loss of Gianna and what what she was and what she could have been. But I'm so so thankful that that that Brendan Kobe got to meet on several occasions. For Mike Egan, Downer's assistant coach on Lower Marion State title team, one memory of Kobe stands out. One day that season, the coaches arranged for a gentleman named Harry Middleton to attend practice and meet the team. Middleton had played for the Aces
fifty three years earlier. In that was the last eight championship team for Longe here r and I just remember she's Kobe being kind of in awe of the guy. This is an older guy now white hair. Um, you wouldn't pick him out of the lineup as a former captain of a state championship team. But just the respect that Kobe showed for him, um, and the admiration he had, like as a guy who um, you know, Kobe was such a student of the game and he realized that, hey, I might be the man now, but this guy was
the man in this school fifty three years ago. That was really really cool for Emery Dabney. One anecdote doesn't stand out about Kobe. His whole attitude does, just like his share will to succeed when you've been close to that throughout your life, like you you have no choice if to be successful, I mean whatever success is. But he saw a gold and if you really think about him at a young age, he was gonna do everything
he could have to accomplish that goal. Um, And that's what I really think of when I think of him, Just like him having no fear and his relentless pursuits of of a goal, That's what I think of, Like on every time I think of that's what That's the first thing that comes to my mind. Dabney's perspective, I think, is a good summary of the macro view of Kobe. It wasn't just Dabney who saw him as incredibly driven.
Everyone who watched him play basketball, or heard him talk or read anything about him saw him the same way. But for Jeremy Treatment, the memories of Kobe have been building up within him for a long time, even before the horrible events of January. During that season, when Jeremy was along for the ride to the state championship victory with Kobe and the Lower Marian Aces, he compiled and
narrated a highlight video of the team's season. The soundtrack he picked for the video was one that every basketball fan knows one shining moment, the song that CBS always plays after the final game of the n c a A men's basketball turning down got Lower Marion prepared for the season right away, with a game against superpower Roman Catholic at Dreadful University. The videos highlights don't just feature Kobe.
His teammates are hitting three pointers and dropping in layouts, and Greg Downer is barking instructions from the side the line and cheerleaders are screaming and shaking their pomp pomps. But there's a lot of Kobe in the video, alley oops and breakaway dunks and breathtaking plays. The kids at Jeremy's camp see them fresh for the first time, but Jeremy gets to relive his time with Kobe over and
over again, and he relished is it. It's funny like when I when I played one China Moment every year camp. I'm like, this was like special, special thing that happened in this one special special time, And you know, you could go seven years without anything even close to that happening. And that's kind of how I feel about this time, like it was. And I look at my bucket list and look at things I've done and didn't do or with part of or experienced, and this is a one.
This is a major experience in my life. If you spend any time with Jeremy, it becomes obvious how much his time with Kobe means to him and still affects him. Yes, he was there when Kobe got his start, but Kobe was also there when Jeremy got his start. Jeremy had had a terrific career and his friendship with Kobe really was his launching pad to Jeremy. The two of them
will always be linked us in incredible. It's like I've known somebody pretty well that when they were on their rise, to see them all the things they said we're gonna happen, to see them actually happen. And how many people can live up the hype. How many people are Lebron James and Kobe Bryant, and how many people are like that? There's very new. It's like you're seeing a percosa spenom live up to the up to his own life, looked up to his own life. That's even harder than living
up to the other people's hype. I mean there was part of me that felt like you know, I was part of that, not a small part, but that was it was part of it. And special. I mean we all idolized people people who were special. I mean we're all special, but very This was incredibly unique person. Yes he was, and in the unique story that was Kobe Bryant's life, I think Jeremy Treatment holds a pretty special place.
He made these tapes with Kobe, and more importantly, he kept them, He dug them up after all those years, and he allowed them to be released into the world. Now, the people who knew Kobe so well back then, who loved him so much, can know how they fit into his life because they and the world can hear through Kobe's own voice how they fit and how much they meant to him. They can hear Kobe teasing and joking around with Jeremy during their interviews together, the easy comfort
they have with each other. Go hi, everyone, Okay, now how do you feel about They can hear him acknowledge the impact at that Greg Downer had on his life, the care that his high school coach had for him. He knew that eventually I would becoming a great play in the NBA. He knows that I would not have anything left. But right now I have a word upon my hand, and oh the NBA, you don't produced? Do things been tappulate? And maybe I'll lose it. I'll go
to college, he knows I don't. They'll have to learn abound writing. Comes had a world up my head. That's that's what this man's learned always till I told him I really don't care about that. They can hear the way that Kobe spoke about his mom and dad back when he still lived under their roof, when he was
just a teenager. Later on, once he was well into his career with the Lakers, Kobe and his parents had a falling out over his decision to get married so young, over their roles in his life and his career and his day to day existence. It lingered for years. I wanted desperately to speak to Joe and Pam for my book and for this series, especially Joe. He was the person Kobe had looked up to the most, and in a way, by pushing his father away, Kobe lost Joe
before Joe lost Kobe. But the Bryan's declined to speak with me. As far as I know, they haven't spoken publicly at all since Kobe's death. I completely understand and accept that. I can only imagine that Joe and Pam and Shariah and Shaya and Kobe, all of them presumed that they would have more time, that they would have an opportunity to reconcile, to be the same close knit family that they were when Kobe was still in high school.
I can't imagine the what ifs and the might have been that have been running through their minds, that run through the minds of any parent who has had to bury a child, especially when I hear this. It's a clip of Kobe talking about the idea of getting into an argument or a conflict with Joe and Pam, And of all those hours Jeremy spent interviewing Kobe, it's the most heartbreaking thing in any of these tapes. It's a little simple to me. I grew up in Italy. I
have any very reliable my sisters. One of my father and I know from that he built such a strong relationship, such a great fristship. We came back over here and kind of take it into play a class. Me came back get along with the boss, saying I hate online Jim or whatever. I'm right away from home, like my parents can't wait to get out. Um, I can't get home.
My mother, my father is really enjoyed. The family have said that I have I know it's not gonna be it forever, and that's why it's really important for my mother and father to come out there they were so I can enjoy the COMFORTA gotta working out. You gotta working out that that's your mother. If I should bat into his world, his world, how can you disrespect them? There no whether you have an argument or whatever, mother
and father or messing up or child's messing up. But it's tough things out before, it says now, and I feel I feel out better as a person knowing that that love is there that I take. No one's top of me the top of the bird beats. That's the time. But I'm gonna enjoy them now while I ask them to the fullest. Did you never know what can happen? No day anything? Um? No, you never know what can happen.
After I talked to Jeremy on the day Kobe died, I drove to a nearby elementary school, just ten minutes away from my son Evans basketball game. Tip off was We stood by the court waiting for a game to finish so ours could start, and there was a buzz among the parents and the kids. Did you hear can't believe it, and his daughter Gianna too. There were how many people in the helicopter. God, it's so awful, so sad. The news had been coming out in a trickle all day,
a drop of information here, a drop there. Out on the court, there was a kid nine years old, maybe ten, wearing a green uniform tank top over a white T shirt. And Evan pointed out to me that the kid had a word written in black marker on one of his sleeves. Kobe for men and women. He was the figure in sports that made them want to pick up a basketball and made the monomax sel in basketball with his drive and his love for the game, and particularly here in
Los Angeles, that will never be forgotten. Before my son's game began, my phone buzzed. It was my editor at the Inquirer. I was expecting the call, Hey, we need you to write a Kobe column. I don't know that there was a sports columnist in America who wasn't writing
a Kobe column. That day. After Evans game, I got home and went up to my office, opened up my laptop and tried to put the breath of Kobe's life and the shock of his death in some perspective That's the cliche Columus and writers use in moments like that, put it in perspective as if such a thing were possible. So I sat down at the keyboard and with a deadline looming, I wrote a ninety five word column and it sounded like this. Kobe Bryant dead. That can't be.
Kobe is strong. Kobe is always smiling or scowling, and both faces showed how strong he was. Kobe can't die. Wasn't Lebron James just passing him on the NBA's all time scoring list at the Wells Fargo Center the other night, then speaking with eloquence and depth about Kobe's influence and
effect on him. Wasn't he on Jimmy Kimmel's late night show, Charming and Smart, proud father talking about his daughter Gianna's basketball career just the other night, a helicopter crash in the middle of a Sunday and Gianna to what that can't be? But there it is? First on TMZ. Then one confirmation coming after another, Kobe Bryant gone at no, no, no, So now do me a favor, and do yourself a favor,
and do someone you love a favor. If you're reading this, Shut off your phone, close your laptop, or put the paper down. Go to your wife or your husband, or your mother or your father, or most of all, your son or your daughter and give them a hug, Call them, visit them, tell them you love them. Go to their basketball games and their dance recitals, or just stop by for a beer a laugh. Turn off the trickle for a while, and remember what the lasting lesson of Kobe
Bryant's life and death should be. It was difficult that day to consider Kobe Bryant's life in full, to dwell on anything other than the tragedy of his death. He was gone, so was his daughter. So we're seven other people who have lives and loves and achievements of their own. With the nearly two years of distance from that day, we can see more clearly, I think, what we ought to take away from his life and his career. We see the value of passion and determination and an unwavering
belief in yourself. We see his singular and blinkered focus on becoming the back, and his resolute willingness to work as hard and as long as he needed to achieve it. We see how the people around him fostered and encouraged that focus, and we see the cost of that focus, the entitlement, the self centeredness, and we see that that cost can be steep. We see most of all, the everlasting effect that Kobe Bryant had and still has on the people who knew him. For them, He'll never really
be gone. He'll always be there, his scowl, his smile, his breathtaking talent, his relentless desire and tireless will, the kid he had been, the man he was becoming. Forever. It has been absolutely beautiful. You guy. I can't believe it's comes to an end. Um, you guys will always be in my heart and uh I sincerely, sincerely appreciated. No words can describe how I feel about your guy, and uh thank you. Thank you from the bottom of
my heart. God, I love you guys, and uh I love you guys and my family, to my family, my wife Vanessa, I thought it's not thali a Gianna. Thank you guys for all your sacrifice, you know, for all the hours I's been in the gym working and training, and Vanessa, you holding down the family the way that you have. I can't there's no way I can thank you enough for that. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you and uh, what can I say? Mombow? I Am Kobe is a production of the Version podcasts in
association with I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted by me Mike sealskin GE's, produced by Jacob Bronstein and directed by Mark Francis. Story editing by Jacob Bronstein with editorial direction from Scott Waxman, Editing, mixing and sound design by Mark Francis. Stephen Thompkins is our production assistant. Our theme music is Create Yourself by Grover Brown featuring Justin Starling. Find Create Yourself wherever you stream music. Music
supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesan Sinking. Executive producers are Mark Francis and Scott Waxman. Join the conversation about I Am Kobe on social media on Twitter and Instagram. It's at Diversion Pods thanks to Orin Rosenbaum, Susan Cannavan and Jeremy Treatment. The ibis before the son. They don't want to stand when I said to briand is fun. Never
clack you out even when my work is done. If they're trying to black me, I might Heart someone throw the blood sweat and say, as we parted, Sufi, stay tending in, let it keep varius in. If they don't believe in themselves, tablet to fit that at Santa says, so set, I don't ask my am. This the reason why my work so damn different to the negatives. I can't listen see me at the tip, you can't listen where I'm a vote to play like cash is see I pay my dudes because of taxes. Gotta work, I
think and grind ahead of his time. So I'm saying that they made you. Don't tell them you create yourself the besh you finn or watch us by this by that time you gotta stay clock then break clock break we create ourselves. Watch me question, watch me want to create myself? Exack climb, signs up and create yourself. Say nicey, ain't no hard to create yourself. You gotta learn from the great minds. But we ain't lying. Tell them that any time this talent wasn't given, it was made the future.
Any time I could change better, tell them that I made it. Back home. As I walked through the harts of the fan, I can't from the valley of the shadow with death waiting for us. Some spoons don't hold your breath. The same town sat trains. But I did it with less. I know one that the being, so there's nothing to guess. Yeah, there's nothing to guess. It's our times on the we up next. We don't got any with rests. I did it with my soul hands, and we never forgets my a. This the reason why
my work so damn different to the negatives. I can't listen see me at the time. You can't listen for where rebuild, re shape, give me your eye. You got to risk take do it now. When I'm saying why, waits im saying that they may you don't tell them. You create yourself on the bench, you finn watch us. Why it's by that time. You gotta steak clock then break clock break. We create ourselves. Watch me watch them create myself. Shack climb, signs up and create yourself. Say nice,
ain't so hard create yourself. Gotta line pretty great minds, but we ain't like telling. Let's getting time m HM. Diversion Podcasts