I am all in. Let's just do.
I Am all in with Scott Patterson an iHeartRadio podcast.
Hey everybody, Scott Patterson, I Am all In podcast, one of them production's iHeart Radio. We've got one on one interview with two very distinguished women, so it's really a two on once, a one on two interview with Lara Stash and Rachel Davidson. And they are notable in that. Lara's Assistant professor and Division of Communication, Visual Performing Arts at Governor State University and writes about gender, rhetoric, popular culture. She's an author of Breaking Bad Cultural History, Rowing in
a Little Field twenty seventeen. Rachel Davidson is Assistant professor in the Department of Communication Hanover College. Or Research broadly addresses rhetoric, rhetoric, and popular culture with interested in motherhood, caregiving, and social advocacy. But they wrote a book. They got together. They wrote a book called Gilmore Girls, A Cultural History. It's no longer just a cult classic. Gillmore Girls is a cultural staple for TV fans, so this is going
to be okay. So in Gilmore Girls a Cultural History, the author's offering engaging analysis a popular see of the popular series. The author examine how the show serves as a representation of American culture, politics, reflects complexity within multiple mother daughter dynamics, and unemployed literature, movies, music, and a lot of cultural stuff that really smart academic ladies say. So we've got them on. Thank you for coming on.
Ladies, thank you for having us.
We're very, very excited. So tell us about the book itself, how it got started, How you two came up with the idea.
I started watching Gilmore Girls back when I was in college, So I mean, I have loved this series forever, A huge fan. I've got my hep Alien shirt on which your listeners cannot see, but I will let you know I am a big fan. And I tried to convince Rachel to watch the show, and Rachel so that you will not know about her until I tell you this. She is very stubborn and she wish not watch it until finally and I said, there's so much here. You've got two girls like you, you'll love it. There's all
this pop culture stuff. And she finally couldn't resist me and watched it and fell in love. And so we were trying to decide what we wanted to work on our next project. And I said, after having I'd done the Breaking Bad book, and I said, there's only one other series that I know better than that one, and that is Gilmour Girls. And she was like, I'm all.
In, So.
Man, here you are on I am all in.
I'm stubborn. And Lara is very patient because she waited for me to watch this show for so long and for me to get I think I needed my girls to get to an age where they wanted to watch the show with me. And then when I did, oh my gosh, it just landed on me so hard. And Lara I could we were talking on the phone and I could see her smile just growing and she was waiting for that moment.
Okay, so you're hooked. We're writing a book, all right.
So let me let me ask you the big question right at the top. Why is the show such a cultural staple for TV fans?
Because I, well, I think Star's Hollow is kind of this bubble and you can have these crazy, cooky, off the wall personalities and just genuine affection for one another and community. You have these witty pop culture references, and I think you've gotten into this in a lot of your episodes in the podcast, is like every time you watch it there's something new, right, Like every time you make different connections. And I think there's just something about
being able to go back and visit it. I always say Stars Hollow is my happy place, and I think if I actually live there, it might drive me crazy. But I love visiting and it just the relationships are important. I don't know, everything just is. It's sort of this beautiful package.
So mm hmmm, Rachel, how do you feel about that?
I would just add that I think you know one comforting aspect of the show. Every time I watch one of the shows that has a town meeting, and the town meeting's full, and some people are annoyed, some people are falling asleep, some people are enjoying it. But the
fact is that all the people are there. And I think that's something that we are missing, at least I'm missing in some of my communities that I've lived in, is just to have all of these people that come together for the benefit of their community, that cares so much about their community. And I think that's what I love about what a lot of people love about Stars Hollow, In particular, a.
Man that is an interesting observation because the town hall meeting really roots the show in history, in American history, because you can see going back to the eighteen hundreds and seventeen hundreds, even the sixteen hundreds, you know, people having those same types of meetings about what's going to go on in that town and will they you know that, you know, you know this, this will these horses continue to leave their droppings here and we've got to do
something that's affecting the chicken coop. And that's a very very interesting conversation. It really does link the show toward you know, and it's an historic town as well.
So one of our chapters in the book is just about that phenomenon, like what is it about stars Hollow that is so appealing? And one a couple of things that we wrote about is that, for one, Stars Hollow is kind of untouched by commercialism. We're not seeing any Starbucks or Applebee's or you know whatever. We have all
of these mom and pop shops. And then also just the idea that, you know, one thing that we think might be reflected in this in Stars Hollow is the idea that there there's been a loss of small townness in American culture, and so maybe Stars Hollow is one way that we're kind of satisfying that need for community and smallness and in our towns in which we live.
I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, I'm all about small tones. Okay, So let's get into and and And that is why people talk about stars Hollow as a very very important character in the show, maybe the most important character in the show, because what what a what what a backdrop you know to bounce everything off of. So yeah, all modernity invading and how how conflicting and how funny that can be and and hence you know, the tone of the show. What. So let's talk about
the mother daughter relationship. I know you want to get into that. So what are your thoughts on h on on the Lurlai Rory relationship.
I think that is why there are so many viewers of different ages that find something because it's like the r Rory Lrelai relationship, but also the Laurel I Emily relationship and the Emily Rory relationship and the missus Kim and Lane relationship. Like there's all these mother daughter dynam that just can appeal to everyone. Right, Like my mom
watched the show. Rachel's daughters watched the show. We sort of spanning generations who absolutely love watching that, and I think we get into this, you know that I'm always fascinated by people that are like I want to be like you know, Rory and laurl I with my daughter
or whatever, or my mother. And it's like their relationship was dysfunctional in a lot of ways, like it was it was meant to be kind of, you know, not perfect imperfect, which I think is also a comfort because they cared about each other so much even if it wasn't.
Perfect, right right, right, Laura, you said that beautifully. The only thing I would add is, you know, speaking to what Laura was talking about, as how it appeals to different generations and where you're at at different stages in your life. I remember my mom just recently telling me that she was drawn to the show when it first came out because of the representation of Laura as a single mother, which was something and not just the representation of a single mother, but one that is without shame
about that kind of status. And my mom was in a similar situation and she loved that there was a brilliant, funny, witty, single mother who who you know, she could see in a situation similar to her own, So that it's one thing I think that the show did really well too.
So in a way, Laurel I was a real touchstone for all mothers, and especially all single mothers, and especially all daughters of single mothers or daughters that wish their fathers wouldn't be there, because she went through life saying everything that every mother, married or single wishes they had said, because she's basically going through life as a stand up comic and making light and making fun and being irreverend and being hysterically funny and being herself and being and
keeping her power all at the same time.
And I think too unapologetically herself. I think maybe that's what.
I was trying to say with the same piece, right, just yeah, just her authentic being, and that's okay. I wish I could live my life like Lareli as a stand up comedian. I'm not that quick on my feet.
Right, right, right right. It's so aspirational in that regard, because I think it's one of the things I take away from the show, say, boy, can you imagine going through life like that? How fun would that be to have that kind of a brain that's going to be so quippy and so clever and so immediately boom all the time, the fast and the funnies all the time, and every.
Emily is very similar.
I mean one go for me, I think, you know that is where I see Lorelai getting her wit and humor. I think Emily, I mean, her delivery is very different than Laurelize. Not necessarily as you know, a stand up comedian, but oh my gosh, so many lap out loud moments with Emily.
She's so I love that dynamic at Emily and Voorne.
Her values sort of come from a different place. But even Emily's friends say, oh you're you're quick like your mother. And a lot of the lines we pulled out best line for every single episode. It's in the back of the book, and a lot of the lines are Emily's as much as they are Lorealies or the rest of the town. Like everyone got good lines, which is I think really important.
Can you go through the topics that the book covers.
Yeah, so we look at relationships. The first part of the book looks at the relationships. We look at the mother daughter dynamic, we look at fatherhood, and representations like with Luke and Richard and Christopher, because you know, he was this really important father figure, although inconsistent, it was a you know, sort of a huge part of the plot.
We look at friendship, and then we look at feminism in the show and how the show really deals with that and how Amy Sherman Palladino had talked about how she wanted it to deal with it. And then we look at popular culture and the value of talking about popular culture. We look at issues of class because that's a huge theme. I mean, it's it's the undercurrents why more life ran right, and then the small town living.
It's also why she hasn't really changed that much.
Yes, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, the tension between the classes in her living in a place that doesn't really recognize that. I mean, it's it's just a brilliant It's a brilliant, brilliant jumping off point, isn't it. It really is. I mean, if you were going to conceive a show, you know that would I mean, and you said, because because what do writers do when they're creating drama or they're creating comedy. They have to create tension? So what brilliant, brilliant brilliant way to configure
some characters and just it just all works. I mean it works right away.
Yeah, And starting in season one, you start to get that tension where Lorelai ran so far away from it and now Rory's inching her way back and Laura cannot wrap her head around it. She doesn't know how to feel about it, and it's complicated. It's the relationship with her parents, but it's also just that life. And you
see that throughout every season. She starts dating Logan, she starts, you know, sort of when Rory gets out of that limo after the party after Dean breaks up with her, and she's wearing the diamonds and she's like clearly had a little bit to drink and she you know, and Laura's just looking out the window. It's just the saddest because it was not what she wanted for her daughter.
Yeah, but it's maybe what she wanted for herself and what missed out.
On, Yes, and attention constantly is it that she feels like maybe she didn't want to run so far from that life. She like went too far to extremes, which would totally fit with Laura because she's, you know, she's not perfect. She makes pretty extreme choices, right.
Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, we were just discussing her marriage proposal to Luke. So let's talk a little bit about the Luke and Laura l I dynamic here. Do you go into the talk discuss that discuss.
That we love Luke.
I'm telling each other, do not call him Luke. His name is Scott.
Yes.
And before I forget Scott, I wanted to tell you I promised my My youngest daughter is eighteen. Her name is Ivy, and she wanted me to tell you that Luke is her favorite character because Luke reminds her of her dad, which is my husband John. And also she loves the sarcasm and your your humor, Luke's humor.
Shout out to Ivy, Ivy appreciate it.
Yeah, I think you know. I've watched this series now. I'm probably on my twelve viewing of it. I kind of keep it on in the background, so it's kind of, you know, always going. But I was watching it recently and I think there's this episode, the eight o'clock at the Oasis episode where Richard calls Laurali and he's like, you have to fix this situation. You got to go on that second date with Peyton played by John Hamm right like you have to fix this. He's like, your
mother did not get the first cup of tea. And they go back and forth and she's like this is insane, and he goes, of course it's insane, like this is insane, but my wife wants that tea. She's getting the first cup of tea. So we're gonna fix this. And I it occurred to me that it was beautiful, Like that's the most romantic moment they have, like this love where he's just like, I know it's crazy, but I'm gonna
make it happen for her. And I think Luke does that for LAURALI I think consistently realizes that what she wants is sometimes crazy and wacky, and she, like you know, has all these sort of zany ideas, and he makes it happen. Builds an isolating rink, and he creates a fishing pond, and he bakes a cake for her daughter, and you know, like he just he's there for her and even if it's not something he understands fully, he
is there to help her. And so I think that's why their relationship is just so fun to watch and so romantic.
It's so romantic, and I love the the slowness over the seasons of how it evolves and changes and how tension is is created. I just I love from the very first episode how Luke you know, portrays this like protective you know, protective persona over both Rory and laurel I. One of my favorite episodes is when Luke rents or buys the the self help tapes about love and tries tries to hide them, but then he sees Laurali's face and then he's like, whoa is I just love it love.
Yes, I love that relationship.
And one thing I think is really cool and was distinct about Luke and Larelli's relationship as opposed to Larelei and some of her other suitors was I think Luke bridged both.
Like passionate love and companionate love.
So there was something It wasn't just that romantic side, but then there was also the long term companionate aspect of their relationship.
Right. They knew how to relax and hang with each other, right, Yeah, it wasn't all needy all the time. Yeah, you're talking about two pretty rebellious individuals who were really rooted in their individuality coming together and not sort of trying to invade each other's territory all the time. So there's a lot it's still a lot of tension there too, and there's like that class element to it because he ate from the upper rungs is a soyah. It was an
interesting dynamic, wasn't it. Yeah, it really was. Let's look at it from I mean, you brought up this feminist angle, right, and Amy shrim Palladino obviously steeped this show in feminism and talk about that as it relates to luc and Laurelized relationship and one thing specifically is that she proposed to him and how that sort of turned this all on its head. So talk about the feminist aspect first and how it affects that relationship.
Yeah. Well, I think the show does a really good job. We sort of talk about it in the book as like being very representative of contemporary feminism at the time. I think we've seen a bit of a shift post like Weinstein Me Too situation, But prior to that, these conversations were kind of couched. We talked about it, you know, but I think sort of this idea of bad feminism. Roxanne Gay, she's a feminist who brought up this idea of bad feminism and that there's not just this one
way to be feminist. And so I think although Lorelai is very independent, I think she relies on Luke a lot, and I think that's part of her journey is figuring out how to let someone into her life and why it's such a slow build, but like let someone into her life and be a partner for her, because she really sort of embraced this, like it's just me and my daughter and I'm going to make this work, and
she did a great job with it. But then her daughter goes off to school and has a life, and season four is all about her trying to figure out, like, now what is she going to do with her life? You know? So I think this show really plays with the tensions of feminism where we do it. It's not this idea of radical feminism, it's how do we do
feminism in everyday life? And I think Luke was a great counterpart because he was both masculine but also very compassionate in his own way, and I love that she proposed. And then you'll get into you know, in season six when you guys start covering that, like there's a bit of tension there for him, where the town is kind of questioning like, oh, she proposed right, like, and he has to try to deal with that and figure out like, Okay,
how do I feel about this? No, I'm fine with it, right, And so I think their dynamic together sort of highlights any kind of I don't know, tensions with that.
So I have stated previously that I had a problem with her proposing to Luke because it was coming from a really greedy kind of actor place where I wanted to play those scenes and I didn't get a chance to, you know what I mean. I think that's really all it is. Anyway, Rachel, go ahead and chime in, Oh.
I was just gonna actually shift just a tiny bit. The other part in our book where we're talking about feminism is in the friendship chapter, which was really interesting to us and for Lauren and I to plush this out. But you know, typically what we, you know, at this time, would have seen in the portrayal of women is women in competition with each other. You know, women not very
nice to each other, women not supporting each other. So one very refreshing aspect that we saw reflections of feminists and is all of these wonderful female friendships and supporting each other and supporting so that the emphasis isn't always on romantic relationships, but also in these these very functional female friendships between different women.
Laura and her mother were at odds so often did you ever think, as fans watching the show and thinking about it, uh post viewing, that Laurela had crossed the line into into insanity and a complete uh not appreciate what her mother was trying to do or whether her father was trying to do. To talk about that a little bit, I.
Mean, I think Amy Sherman, Palladino and Dani I think they have so many episodes where we can sympathize with Emily. I think lorele I is very well positioned as an unreliable narrator. She reacts emotionally very quickly, She doesn't always think things through, and she thinks she's right. And I think this the scene where she goes storming into Emily's house with Max Medina and is like, how couldn't you you don't care that I'm getting married? You're so cold?
And Emily finally turns around and she's like, I know how you feel. How would you fill if a stranger told you your daughter was getting married? You know? And for Emily in that moment, not Laura. Couldn't she just tell her? Right? I mean, obviously conflict for the show, but I think that she's a very sympathetic character in a lot of ways while also being very frustrating as a mother and sort of you can see both sides
of it a lot of times. And the one where Laurai writes the letter dear Emily and Richard yea episode is just you just want to give Emily a hug and be like that must have been like torture, you know.
So, Rachel, why do you think Tricksie was kryptonite to Emily? Why did Emily lose all her powers around Trixy? And why? Let's yeah, so talk about that.
I love so Trixies and maybe three episodes right, and that, Yeah, the dynamic that she brings in because I think in those moments we're seeing I think Emily in the place of Laura. I you know, we we wrote about you know, that kind of back and forth and you know, one thing that I have that I really loved in one of the episodes that Laura just talked about, Dear Emily and Richard, Trixy is not in there, so I'm debating
just a little bit. But the way in which the show plays with identification with Emily, I think is really really smart, especially in those those moments when we're getting the backstory of Emily and we're seeing, you know, we're starting to kind of understand and explain some of her terrible behaviors towards Laurli and it starts to kind of click with viewers. I think it makes sense, and I think Trixy also does that, So we're starting to build
some sympathy. We're seeing Emily in a very different role, not as you know, the Laurali's mom, but as a daughter in law herself. Laura, I know you have stuff to say about Tricksy too.
Yeah, no, I know, I thought you that was great, Like, I think it's fascinating because she's in that position and yet she doesn't recognize how she does the same things to Laura. So you're just like, we're not learning here, right, But that's that's part of the I don't know, the appeal and the fact that Tricksy does like laurle i values, you know, gives her some validation for all that she's accomplished. I think was really important.
And complicates as well, like the the arrangements between and the connections that that that Emily is trying to maintain in order to stay connected with Laura lyon y Where.
Do you guys fall on this this season? End of season five, Rory going to living in the poolhouse at Grandma's house and dropping out of Yale.
I think it was incredibly important. It needed to happen. And it's funny because when you rewatch the series over and over, you catch these moments and then I think it's the pilot or the first, you know, the second episode, Suki says to Laura, l I, now you know as Rory's about to go to Chilton, right like still early. Now you guys can have a normal mother daughter relationship where you fight and you you know you have that. And they still didn't really get there until this moment.
They had fights, but this is like off fight and they have to figure it out separately, and I think it was an incredibly important moment. It is like torture to watch those though, because so much of the relate there's so much of the show is their relationships, so you're kind of in limbo. I love being able to binge them because I can just get through those and back to where they're together again.
Yeah, as a viewer, it's so frustrating those months. I think it's like in the narrative of the show, it's five months maybe that they're separated, but then their reunification is one of my favorite moments of the show because I feel like, Okay, Laura, I putting all of these topics of conversations, like things I need to talk to Rory about when we come back together.
That's me.
I was like, I'm going to steal that in case I ever have any falling out with my children. But it's just such a beautiful coming together moment after that. And I agree with with Laura that as we were writing about that, I think I came to understand and appreciate that part of the show more than as a
viewer being frustrated. I think it was it was necessary, and I think also it was now that I'm entering into empty nester stage, like I'm appreciating that that part of the show and Laura I really figuring out who she is without Rory because you know, I'm learning that your role as parent, Like I feel like I need a parenting book, just a parent, you know, adult children. And so that's a really interesting, you know phase that the show that the show presents us with, but.
It is it is gosh, you know, it's such a powerful then running through this is that everybody knows what's going to happen. We know nobody's going to die, but we do know that Rory is going to grow up. We do know that she's going to go off to school. We do know that she's going to graduate. We do know that she's going to start her own life. And isn't that really something to watch? That's separating from her mom when they were so they started off so close
and then now that's drifting apart. That is that is a powerful magnet for an audience. It really is.
And it's real too, you know, it's so real, real things that happened.
Well, I think it was really important. Laura. I stood firm. She has to figure this out on her own, she has to make these mistakes. And Luke was like, we gotta go get her, We got to go kidnapper, We got to talk to her right, and it's like she's going to have to figure this out and she's going to make some major mistakes while she does this, and it has to happen. And then right before they get back together. Oh wait, have you you haven't gotten there. I don't want to. I don't want to.
That's seasons. Please don't please. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen it. That's okay, that's okay, all right, So let's get into Rory's relationships. Okay, uh discuss you know, the Deans, the Jesses, the Logans. Talk about those dynamics and what they did or didn't do for Rory.
Well, I do want to say we were pretty anti Logan in our book, and I think we both can say that perhaps we were a little aggressive with that. I feel like, uh, I sort of understand where that comes from. Like Rory really experiences all the tropes of romantic novels. She gets Dean, the jockslash motorcycle driver. He was kind of he kind of his personality shifted a
bit by season two. Then she gets Jess, who's like the bad boy but super smart and the only one that could really understand what, you know, her level of intelligence and she goes on to Logan, who's like this millionaire. It's every trope and she gets to experience it. So I do want to say, if anyone reads our book, I'm a little less anti Logan, even though he was
my least favorite choice for Rory. And I think probably we've talked about it a few times that perhaps we were a little aggressive in our anti Logan sentiments in the book. But yeah, I think I think when Rory dates Jess and Luke's like, are we okay with this?
Like is this? Are you okay with it? Right? Because you know, she really did not want that to happen, and she says, I think it's about time for a Jess and it's like, yes, that's you have to kind of figure out who is your partner, right, Like who is who are you compatible with? It's not always going
to be the same. And I think the parallels between Dean and Luke and Christopher and Logan, like Dean he's not the one for her, even though Luke is the one for Laura, you know, and Jess brings something really important for her. He's my favorite. I am totally team Jess, but I don't think he's the best fit for her. He is, he just doesn't give her what she needs. I don't think Logan's the right fit. But clearly later in life she you know, maybe continues that path.
So yeah, that's the acid test for me with Logan, because I'm very fond of Logan and I think he's super smart and I think he does give her what he needs. But the thing is, the acid test is ten years from now, when they're married, they have a couple of kids, and he's running the empire, is Daddy's empire? Is he going to cheat on her? Do you see him cheating on her? And I kind of do?
Is Rory gonna cheat on him?
Pat?
I Meanyeah, She's a pretty complicated character, and it's yeah, it's not necessarily sunshine and roses for everyone, Right, Rachel, what you said in the book that you wanted her to choose herself so she had a very.
Well I was going to say that also that if I had to choose, I'm definitely team Jess. But in our book we end that chapter with the possibility of a fourth option, and that is Marty.
That's right, who's probably the best guy for her. He's mister reliable, Yeah, Yeah, he's gonna make he's always going to make a good living. He's always he's going to get a teaching position at a smaller college, and he's going to be the steady He's going to be steady, steady, steady guy. He's going to love her, he's going to worship her. It's going to be a great life for those two. But she just doesn't get that spark from him, you know. So yeah, yeah, I know, I've seen it
all that way, Yeah, seeing it all before. What was your favorite part of the series.
I do just absolutely adore the female friendships, especially between Lorle and I just I love Melissa McCarthy and I just love what she did with that character. But I just love that that was an aspect of the show. It wasn't just focused on, you know, a romantic relationship. But my favorite part did you say favorite moment or favorite part.
Of the series or favorite part?
Okay, I love Kirk's short film that they play. I think it's season two and it's at the Stars Hollow movie. First of all, I love when Laura I thinks she's going to be able to choose a film and she she I think references Fletch and Arthur, which makes me laugh every time, and Sophie's choice as well. But then when we get to see Kirk's film that I just thought the show is so smart. I just loved it.
Watch it frequently, right right right, Laura, one last idea here. What was so distinct about the show compared to other shows during that time two thousand and seven.
I mean, I think even on the network that it was on the very first the pilot episode, Laura la I says to Rory, like I had DIBs on being the beat to night right, Like you did not see that on any shows that were airing on a family network. And it was just a very real representation of how people actually talk to each other, not these sappy moments. And I think that was one of the comments that Amy Sherman Palladino made, was like I didn't love the
close ups. I didn't want the emotional, like sad thing. It was about making tragic figures funny. And I think I watch it every time and I'm like, they are They've got these tragic stories, all of them, and yet it is so funny. So I think it was it was I've never come across another show like it. Somebody will say it's like Gilmore Girls, and I always watch it and I'm like, no, more good. It's fine, but it's not. Don't say it's like Gilmore Girls, because you
just can't do it. Even Marvelous Mismaans. I mean, that's a totally different thing, right, It's it's it's it's just it's sort of on its own. Son.
Yeah, I would just said to that too.
Just the quantity and the quality of the pop culture references I think keeps people coming back to the show because and there's someone a scholar that requoted in the pop culture chapter that it's not so highbrow references where it's like condescending to the audience. Some of the references I know, and when I know them, I'm so proud of myself and I feel really good. But then the other references, I'm like, I'm going to go look that up because Lorelai is super cool, and I want to know.
I want to read what she's reading or I want to watch what she's watching. And I don't know how Amy did that, Like, I don't know how she created just very carefully these pop culture references that that keeps people coming back I mean still when I rewatch it now I I write down I need to look up who you know, whoever whatever, look.
At this movie.
It cannot catch everything, which was very difficult when we were writing this book, gather evidence.
It's tough.
Well, I can tell you that the type of couple that goes on a vacation and they take a hundred books with them, that's what they do on vacation. They read no right, so but yeah, I agree with you. That's that's that's the very special special sauce of the show. I agree. Anyway, that's all the time we have. We got to have you back on the show. It's a fascinating conversation. Thank you so much for your time. Rachel Davidson at Lara Stage. The book is Gilmore Girls of
Cultural History. Go out and get yourself a copy. Thank you, ladies so much, and hopefully talk soon.
Yeah, thank you so much.
Thank you very much.
Hey everybody and Tuls again. Follow us on Instagram at I Am All In podcast and email us at Gilmour at iHeartRadio dot com.