This is a Diner, People Come Here to Eat Not Shop (S4 E13 "Nag Hammadi Is Where They Found the Gnostic…”)

Any there's like a mansion behind you a bridge, I don't know, there's like a bridge and then it looks like a mansion. Listen, you know, you know we've been coming here for twenty two years and uh you know we we love it and it's it's hard every single year. You can't see it like we can. There's literally, Daniel, can you see that's like a giant, beautiful mountain. It's gorgeous snow captain mountain. Like literally there is, Scott. We need to make this this podcast like number one this

whole year so we can just buy a house out there. Yes, we need it. We need an eyeball in. Yeah, it's our winter, it's where we winter. And then we can do our celebrity ski competitions. Oh yeah, actually that's a rat idea for charity. And we can do all that. I know, all these people here, we can get it together. It'll be fun. Have you always been a skier? Sorry to digress, we'll get to the end. Since I was seven years old, whoa is your? Is that your main

favorite sport other than baseball? Obviously based I don't. I don't care for baseball anymore, which is super weird because you're appropris get it though, because like baseball was a job. Skiing's fun. You know. I always forget that you were a professional baseball player, and I keep trying to forget, keep reminding me that was a great experience. I I don't. I'm not going to belive it. It It was a great experience. It taught me how to win. It taught me how

to succeed. It really discipline, absolutely, Yeah, absolutely, I mean you can't mess around, you know, and uh, you know, it's like it It's set me on a better course for my life. So I'm very grateful for that experience. Looking back on seven years of frustration, not not all frustration, but the last two were very frustrating. Because I wasn't getting to wear I thought I deserved to be. But that's life, you know, and uh um that was another lesson.

So it was. It was just chocked full of lessons throughout those entire seven years that later in my life, you know, helped me to become successful in other fields. Yeah, it's a generalization, but I would say, like, rarely when you like an athlete, are you ever like, hey, work harder to the athlete? They always are like, oh I can do that, I'll do that. Yep, I'll be there. I'm always They're always on time, They're always. They're just very especially you can't let your the rest of your

came down. I gotta show up, right, team, play team, all that stuff, right, don't take any of the credit. It's not about you, you know that kind of thing. It's important. It's important stuff, you know, traditional American values. Stuffed down my throat. Yeah, well, not to have an abrupt conversation change, But this episode was out of control. What is going on with season four? Amazing and it sweeps. Remember these are this is the biggest of the season.

I was. It was staggering. It was a staggeringly great episode. It was just I mean I watched it on my phone. I didn't bring my computer with me. I watched it on my phone and it was just bigger than life. Ye. Well, so I have a weird story. I there was a chance I wasn't going to be here today because I had something else at the same time as we're recording it. So Danielle changed the schedule. But I wanted to watch it just to be sure, just in case it worked out.

So last night, at midnight, I watched the episode. I didn't take notes or anything, though, so I just watched it. Well. Then this morning, at like seven am, I get the text that okay, we worked it out, you can be on. I watched it literally again. It was like a fresh episode, like you can you could literally watch it hit start again, and I think it would be just is enjoyable. Yeah, no question. I mean it's it was just firing on all cylinders, all characters, all great, just coming at you,

coming at you, coming at you. Um, you couldn't. I mean every time you started to laugh, you have to stop to listen to another line because it was going to be funny. It was, and that's why people watch it so many times, because it's like I missed that joke. I missed, you know what, I was doing a lot. I was hitting my reverse ten second thing on my phone just to hear the joke again because I missed

a little bit of it. The banter is so fast, and you miss a lot of t JS great lines like he is really because he's dry and so the scenes with you and him were so amazing. His father's son to the max. I mean you could see all that that genius tone oh so true, just even the way he walked and the way he just leaned on an elbow on the counter and looked up at bobbed his head. I mean it was just like it was so dom DeLuise, totally his son, and what a great performance.

I just just loved it and the timing and I you know, I took a hit in this episode. I got called a name. Right. Sounds like we're going to get so much to get into, but it's like, yeah, Danielle, take it away. Just this this is going to be the greatest synopsis of all time. Pressure Okay, Season four,

episode thirteen, Nakamadhi is where they found Agnostic Gospel. Air date February tenth, two thousand four, Jess is still in town and keeps running away from Rory, but then he finally says how he really feels that was I know, we'll get to it. Plus he makes Luke feel awful about wanting to fix everything. Liz brings her boyfriend t J to town and brings hope to Luke. Then maybe she will be okay. Lori, La and Jason pretend to be together at the benefit per Emily's request. So much

is so much, so much. It's just it's so much going on. So before we go and order with Scott, what's your overall on this episode? Just like how it made you feel? The performances, the story all a plus, all great? Um, you know, it flowed beautifully. It it had this pace that it kept. Um. It was very spirited pace um, which I like. Uh, it never really slowed down, but it never felt rushed. It just felt kind of exciting and fun. It was like ten mini

plays each scene. I was like, whoa. I just think what Amy's doing and what Amy and Dan are doing is now they have three seasons, three plus seasons to draw from, so they're using it at their at their measure and making this show and elevating this season. I mean this season. You know, Season four couldn't be season four without the first three seasons. And you know all of these not only are they doing all the great pop culture references, but they're doing the referencing the first

three seasons and it's paying off every single line. So I've never seen a show that's so full and so packed and so dense. The only other show like that to me is The West Wing. It's the only other one where I'm like, wow, it's just so dense. Well, first of all, there there are some right there are there are some. I'm getting little territorial right now. No,

I didn't say one was better. I just said it's a remind me of But I even thought this Kirk in this one is Kirk at his best, because it's funny and kirkish without ever like going that's not No one's doing that, do you know what I mean? Everyone can use a couple of more waffles over there in the kitchen ohafles next to the Melton living that vacation life. What's okay? I had two very early Nick and I got up early and had waffles at like seven o'clock. But now I'm famished. I need a couple of more

waffles anyway. Sorry, Yes, I want to go on record to say that I take back a lot that I said last episode when I was so over Jess, like I was so just done with him, and this episode I just got hooked right back in. Yeah he looked good too. He's so cool good even in that JELOPI of a car. I'm like, you're a bib that kids a movie star totally. Yeah, he's a movie star. You cannot not look at him. Yeah, I mean it's like, you know, I know he's done some films, um, but

I think he's yet to do. You know, he's there's a movie career out there for him. Yeah, that's funny. He Yeah, he hasn't had his like where he just suddenly becomes a movie star. But in the same breath, I don't want just two hours of him. I want like a whole year, you know, Like I like him being in a series. But to me, I think, like, okay, so Ryan Gossling, Like why Milow can be Ryan Gossling to me, Like Ryan Gosling, You're like he's a movie star,

Like that's Milo right, right? No, I I think he's it's still possible for him. I think totally. He's just so solid, you know. So I actually like the previously you know, when they're like previously, because I think it kind of just reminds you we're going to get some Jess in this episode. We're gonna get some Jason in this episode. They remind us about Rory saying I may have loved you. They re right, who lizes like? I like that as a way to start. It draws me in.

I think all of the the Jest stuff has never been more powerful because he's never had more to do. He's confronting his mother or avoiding his mother, he's confronting Luke and reading Rouke Luke the Riot Act and telling him, which was a devastating by the way, because it was had truth to it because he wasn't wrong. Yeah, I want to repeat what you said. He had more to do, and I think that's so important. Every character had so much to do that. I think it's why I felt like, oh,

I'm so satisfied, right right, nothing was wasted. I mean, you've never seen Milo that way. You've never seen Luke, I'm sorry, Jess that way. You've never seen Luke that way, you've never seen even Gypsy drunk drunk, but even Gypsy was served a purpose. Babette, her scene served a purpose because even though they went there because they're freezing, obviously

it further the jest storyline. Everybody, Kirk, everybody served a purpose. Jason, Liz t j brilliant, absolutely brilliant, and even even a lot for Liz, tons of stuff to do for Liz totally. Even We'll go to the beginning with their so cold, right, they're so cold because the windows broken, which was so important because it led us to why it gets Luke over there for that tender, beautiful scene between the two of them, We're just like, these two people are in love,

like why why do you waste my time? That scene also set up Jess and Rory too though, because she was she asked you like, do you think a froze to death in the car? You know, like she it just is setting that up to that she still kind of cares boy that that you know, that gaines bloodline causing that's the thing, as like a writer that I

could never do. I mean, I'm not a writer. I'm saying I admire writers because when you're crafting the story, somebody has to think, oh, the window will be broken, and as a result of that, like that's where I'm like, oh, how do they do that? Right? Right? Because I was so like this window thing is so why what's going on? And then you're like, oh, but it was so important, right the getting syrup syrup on my waffles and must be a nice life for you. Right now, we'll just

keep working here with no food. I ate I ate a banana and Scott's having a gourmet meal. But that's fine. By the way, I'll do a little fashion while you're while you're getting your breakfast. Second, Rory sweater amazing, she had that like really cute cozy wrap around sweater. But Laura, lie there. We'll talk about it. But there was a moment where Lorea lies walking in the blue puffer and the she's walking through start hollowed towards Kirk. The sun

is shining behind her long brown hare. I literally was like, she's legit glowing like an angel. It was that we have to get that on freeze frame on Instagram because I'm like, oh my gosh, she looked She's so cute. It's just ridiculous. Now, I did think it was very dangerous that they were using the oven for warmth and nobody should do that. Yeah, but it did. It did. Uh. It gave birth to one of the great lines about Sylvia Plath. Maybe she was just cold. Well I just

wrote down the joke about the thing. When's Nita coat so cool? And then they set up that you're gonna come fix it, which became important throughout, you know. And then in Lane still sleeping on the couch totally which I'm jumping ahead, but it's very sweet scene between lower lyon Lane where she says, like, I'm heading to town. Do you need anything? And she says has she asked that? There's just so many like sweet moments. But anyway, so then we realize there's so much traffic in stars Hollow.

It's just it's pushing that car. What car is that? Does anyone know what kind of car that actually is? Wasn't it a Comet? Or Rambler had an old Comet Rambler? I don't know. It just looks it's broken, needs a carburetor. Yeah. Hi, I'm Christine Taylor and I'm David Lasher. David and I start in a little show in the nineties called Hey Dude, and now we're eating up once again as the host of a new I Heart podcast, Hey Dude the Nineties called Do you remember the motor rolla flip phone? Do

you remember going to Blockbuster? Do you remember Nintendo sixty four? Do you remember getting frosted tips? Was that a serial? No? It was hair? Do you remember a O L instant Messenger and the dial up sound like Poltergeist? Do you remember when we dated? Okay, save that for the podcast. We're going to use Hey Dude as our jumping off point, but we are going to unpack and dive back into the decade of the nineties. We lived it, and now we're calling on all of our friends to come back

and relive it. Each episode will rival the feeling of taking out the cartridge from your game boy, blowing on it, and popping it back in as we take you back to the nineties. So listen to Hey Dude the Nineties called on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. First of all, can you

remember doing that scene? Because it's like you might as well have been a dance number with the three guys pushing and then you gotta walk up and Kirk's got to hit his mark, and the whole thing was like literally a chorus line. I don't remember one moment of filming any of that. That episode that shocked me Jesse's cars in MC ambassador. But anyways, that is not an easy scene. I mean, obviously they could cut, but like they're pushing that car. No, that's a real car, and

then you have to walk. First of all, you're driving the truck. All those people are driving, so there's cars being driven and having to hit their marks. Well, push this, Jelapi. It can't be easy. No, but you got you know, it's you just have a bunch of people working together to make it happen. It's it's easier than you think and harder than you think. Okay, okay, yeah it's both. Um. Because when it goes wrong, when it goes bad, it

goes really bad. It's like it's like the outtakes are pretty funny because it's like it all goes south and it's just like it's hysterical because it's so bad. It just doesn't work. It doesn't work. It doesn't work like beautifully, you know, because driving a car you can't even like so say, you know how you guys have your marks or whatever, like hit your mark. If you're driving with cars all you can see in a little duct taping X. Yeah, that's the key. That's you know, that's the key to

television acting. It's hitting your marks. It's like you have to do what you need to do, um, body language wise, to convey or whatever psychological gestures you are going to come up with that happened in the moment, and that all has to be accomplish before you hit that mark. And then you hit that mark and there's another mark.

So yeah, it is, it's it is. It not seem like there's too much in the brain Like I would be like my brain cannot walk, talk, chew, gum, hit the mark, move the plate, serving care but cat like I just no, but it can. You can do it because every it's like you're fully functioned. You know, your brain is operating, your motions are open, everything's flowing. Uh, it's really Look you can do it. Look the floor of the diner or whatever scene we're doing is you know,

we all have colored tape. Uh you know, um, lime green, laurelized red. Everybody has their own color tape. If we're doing four or five people in the scene. That floor and it's movement that floor. It's just like covered in colored tape, okay, And that's your dance for and you gotta know, you gotta know where you're going, and you do because you rehearse it a couple of times and you just kind of know it, you kind of get it,

and it's you just your mark. I think if everybody could be an actor, everybody would be because who doesn't want to do it? But like, no, I couldn't do it. Well, if you love it and you want to be great at it, not saying that you're gonna be great at it, but if you want to be great at it, you're gonna you know, you're gonna slide into your mark and you're gonna just do it, you know. And I have a I digress on or I interject with this question.

When you went to do the show, you just did Sullivan's crossing, did I get Yeah, you hadn't acted in a minute. Is it like riding a bike or it was a while. Is it like riding a bike or did you have to like like were you stiff at first or like bad? I don't know. Somebody hit him with a hammery and you can't even come back to you like your naturally know how to do it. Scott, Yeah, can you try it with a little bit of feeling. I feel like it's riding a bike. Is it like

riding a bike? Yeah, So you get out there and you you know what to do. Well. It was a different it's a different show. It's different writing. It called upon the actors to do different things. It's a far more emotional show. You know. It's it's it's actors emoting. So this oh no, no, no, no, this is a lot of talking. And yeah, I agree with you. You have to feel it. It's it's it's draining, but it's But Solomon's crossing was just like, you know, I'm gonna

have to cry today three times. It's that show where it's just deeply emotional. These characters are deeply affected by one another, and it's it's it's what's referred to as a romantic drama. So I didn't know that I could do that in front of a camera as frequently as I was called upon to do it. It's surprised that I could do it. And I realized I could do it in the first couple of days because it was like cry, cry, cry, breakdown cry, and I'm like, are

they kidding me? With us? And uh, I just you just do it, and I just feel the older you get, the easier acting becomes because you get you know yourself better. Uh. It really is about being comfortable in front of a camera and not being intimidated by it, but like knowing how to use the camera. You know, it's so I mean, at this point it's just I'm not saying it's easy acting. It's really hard. Um, but uh, you know, beginners get

nervous in front of a camera. They get nervous when they have to hit their marks, and there's this sort

of fear. I don't have that anymore, you know. What's so funny just even the zoom sometimes, like if we turned our cameras off, we should try this as an experiment one day, because I wonder if the show would be the podcast would be, like I don't know, just maybe even improved, because even having the zoom cameras on, occasionally I catch a glimpse of myself and I'm like, oh, oh, or I do this weird thing because I'm like, I don't want to have six We should all be in

the same studio. We should all be in the same room with cameras rolling. Fine, we can't really notice them, but we should be. We should be reacting off each other because if we're interacting in this in this way, at this level, over zoom or then imagine what it's like we're all in the room together. That's why I keep advocating going back to the to a studio, a dedicated studio. You wouldn't be able to be where you are right now. I'd have to move. But I do

think there's something about the camera. We could do multiple episodes in one day or in a two day period. First of all, this is boring for people listening, but actually I actually never let us do that. I will tell everybody I never let us do that for people listening that want a little inside baseball, because it's really hard to talk about the episode if you've seen the next one. So I really like that we do, we see the episode. It's a good point. That is a

good point. I will stand down on that all right. Anyway, we'll bore everyone later with our behind the scenes. And so anyway, this scene was so First of all, the gypsy Gypsy was very, very important in this episode and the scene where so she's working on the car and you get this shot of Jess and oh my god, he looked he had this pose. I don't know if people want to go back and look at it. But then when she says, well, wait while you do. But anyway,

she says, that's not her. I know her. That was painful because he was like smiling, like not smiling, without smiling, and just like there she is totally and she knew and she says that's not her. She cut her hair. She was so important, so important. Boy, these two kids, these two wacky kids. Man, they just they love each other.

But man, he just needs to get his act together or out of school and you know, open up, you know, some kind of a vegetable garden business or something and just be a hippie and just let it go be with jas, right, I mean that's the alternative. That's that's the other show. Yeah, yeah, Sliding Doors. I mean it could go a million different ways. So I actually okay.

So then we do have that Lane that's scene with Lane that we talked about Lane and Laura ly and then we get Emily on the phone, which I actually thought that Emily stuff was hysterical Emily and Richard and just they need these people at their table, and you sort of um because the episode was so sensitive and had so much feeling, and then it was nice to go like, oh, Emily and Richard crazy as ever, I mean, and just she just the interaction and like Laura Bobbins,

you know what, like she's freaking out about that one even is melting down, like bring someone, Laura lar always always good to see Emily a full throttle, you know. Yeah, and then she never can miss a beat because even though she's like so focused on filling her table, she was like, don't wear those pantyhose. You look like ten cents of dance, just like it's not even a phrase. Well yeah, anyway, it just moves so fast. So I like the setup of the whole fundraiser blah blah blah.

So then we go into Luke's and I thought that scene with Kirk and Miss Patty, he's all jazz hands, flaming baton and then she's just like He's like, are you listening and she's like not sense a day you're born? Ye, And it's just like it wasn't was it needed? No for the plot. But it's just so good, right, great, Great for the characters, great for the relationships. Great. Oh I do have a flag on the play though. Okay, okay,

so you know how we have of all this about Carrie? Right, so if she is, so Liz is coming and staying with her, and you had this like one night Shenanigans, maybe at the prom whatever. The town is the size of a piece, So why do you never see her? Yeah? I don't know that she lives. That Carrie lives in Stars Hall? Does she? Did they say that she does? I don't know. I just assumed if Liz was staying with her, that's a good point. If she's I mean, I guess they could have stayed at an end together.

But I don't know. You know, we don't We don't see every single character and stars Hollow, I mean, what do you think a small town is a couple of thousand? Five thousand? I guess that's true. I mean, how are you gonna see all of now? We see her when we need to see her, right, she's not. Maybe she lives on the outskirts. I don't know. Yeah, it's just's a mystery. Anyway, they couldn't make your deal. Right. Anyway, they threw big fat studio money at her and she said,

now who knows, you know? So okay, So that aside, that's sort of the one plot hole and it kind of comes up later when you bump into the three girls. But we'll talk about it then. Okay. So then we've got Liz in the ear rings in the diner, which actually lead to funny moments between Luke and Liz, like they have a cool interaction. Yeah, you know, I thought he could have. I mean, I understand why he didn't want it in his dinner. He's just who he is and that's just how it is. But he could have

let her. You know, I was like, just let herself some ear rings. What's the big deal? But that means she's going to stay if they sell, she's and you know, he didn't want that. He wants her to move on. He doesn't want to deal with it. Patty would buy the ear rings though, right, Like it was a toss in between to your buying the ear rings. I'm happy Patty did. Yeah. Hey, I'm Lance Bass, host of the

new I Heard podcast Frosted Tips with Lance Bass. The hardest thing could be knowing who to turn to when questions arise, or times get tough, or you're at the end of the road. Okay, I see what you're doing. Do you ever think to yourself, what advice would Lance Bass and my favorite boy bands give me in this situation? If you do, you've come to the right place, because I'm here to help this. I promise you seriously, I swear, and you won't have to send an S O S

because I'll be there for you. And so my husband Michael, Hey, that's me. Yeah, we know that Michael and a different hot, sexy teen crush boy bander each week to guide you through life step by step, not another one. Kids, relationships, life in general can get messy. You may be thinking, this is the story of my life. If so, tell everybody, yeah, everybody about my new podcast, and make sure to listen so we'll never ever have to say bye bye bye.

Listen to Frosted Tips with a Lance Bass on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, so there is something about Liz that's like, Okay, so I don't know if you caught it. She goes like you need to nap jack. Everybody's cool, it's cool. Like the way she talks is so seventies, like hippie cool, like you need a nap jack. Everybody's cool with the earrings. It's cool like and I kind of like it as a juxtaposition to Luke, who's so sort of uptight gradging.

They really feel like siblings. Well, she seems like she's doing really good in this episode, Like I'm like, oh, you know, she seems like she's she's I don't know, doing something good for herself. But then in the back of my head, I'm like, and obviously I don't know what happens, but I'm like, one's the ball going to draw? You know, I'm like, I think the problem with that dynamic with the brothers sister thing, and he's coming to the rescue all the time and cleaning up the messages.

He's got a memory of he's got bad memories and she has a very short memory span and she has good memories. It's all positive for her because now you know, she has the ability to, um, you know, to recreate her life all the time because she's always recovering. She's always in some kind of recovery. UM. So it doesn't you know, they're they're living on two different planes. That is such a great example that you just nailed it there, Scott, because the way she sees him, her brother Luke, is

not the way he thinks she sees him. And we learned that so much through her conversation with Laura Lai and the way she sees him as her hero, her savior. It's almost like, in some ways it's amazing, but it also is why maybe she keeps failing. He'll say of me, he'll give me money, He'll get me a place to stay. She doesn't ever have to be She gave her kid to him, right, She's it's always a super positive experience for her to be with him, because that's the hope

for her. That he's gonna, like we talked about in the last episode, that he's gonna show up. He's just gonna keep giving, giving, giving, and that's my brother and I love him. He's gonna be there for me. So that's great for her. What are the effect what's the effect on him? It's it's it's horrible. It's a horrible, devastating effect. We'll think about it the way she spoke about him to Lord Lie and we'll get into the nitty gritty of it is so different than the way

he speaks about her. They don't have. The relationship is not equal. He is always having to do everything, and she's like, I love him, He's my hero. He saves me. I mess up, he fixes it. I mess up, he fixes it, and he's like exhausted by it. It's what is that reciprocal? It's not reciprocal. That's the word. Their relationship is not reciprocal. Yeah, it's it's like, I don't know, unrequited love. It's just what it's just what brothers do. You know, just what her brother does. It's just what

brothers do. Yeah, big brothers that they've always done. They'll always do it. And uh, you know, he's got to find he's got to find it deep within himself to forgive her and to get over it and to move forward with positivity. I guess. But he just so she scares the hell out of him totally, and that brings up something that I'm going to go out of order, but I think it's important because we're talking about it.

Luke put that money in the car, Yeah, like that was major, Like he can't not help these people, right, so he could he's so hurt by Jess, right, I mean, Jess just gave him the biggest gut punch ever. And he went over to because he said, when I went over to Gypsies, she was still work. She was about finished with the car. And so you know by that he's gone over there and he put that money up in the and it's like, oh my god, this guy hurt him so much, but that's his kid, so he's like,

he needs that money. You know, that was a brilliant scene between Jess and Luke, but I think it was incredibly unfair, h and petty and easy and cheap shots. It was just, you know, Luke was formed. Uh you know, people are formed through their experiences, right, and they are who they are through their experiences in life. That's what teaches them and that's how Luke became Um. And for somebody to just rip the mask off that, I thought it was cruel and I thought it showed um a

depravity on Jesse's part that is completely debilitating him. Jess, I think it said. I think it said more about Jess than it than it does about Luke. And I think there's some truth even though there's some truth to what he was saying, Um, the manner in which that information was delivered was cruel, and it was heartless, and it was mean spirit, which is why Lauraa calls him out keep going, keep going, deep deeply troubled person. Uh And and my opinion of him went down a couple

of notches. Um. It's it's either he's so troubled that he's lashing out at everything, which is probably the case because he was you know, it looks like he was raised by a couple of addicts who didn't want to bother him. Um, So this is a deep seated anchor. This is a rage. So you know, Milo is filled with rage. And I think that's especially what Loyal is responding to stay with my daughter because even though you have these other personalities, you have these other qualities, doesn't matter,

Your rage wipes them all out. So stay away from her because one moment could end my daughter's future with you. And he's singlehandedly like crushing the two people closest to you know what I mean, Like it's one common denominator. This guy is ruining their life. He is hurting them so badly. The ultimate rebel, the ultimate bad boy. But boy, he just he just ripped Luke and new one now there is okay, So I guess there is some truth to what he said and that he's not wrong like that.

Luke is always trying to fix things, but Luke does it with intentions. And also he Luke does it out of love. Now he's not long. But the other thing that he's not factoring in with Liz now he knows it. The reason you're Luke is worried about Liz is because of the past. So even if she's doing well now, he's so like worried, like this is just going to

be like all the rest well. I think it's a sign of strength in Luke that people try to call him out that it's actually a sign of their weakness when they say these things like I never asked you to help me. That to me is a sign of extraordinary weakness and ingratitude on somebody's part when they say that that is the worst thing you could That's the most revealing thing you could say to somebody. I never

asked you to do that. When somebody steps up and does the right thing for somebody and then resents that person for doing it because they don't feel like they want to owe somebody something because I never asked you to do that, and that's because they're both but my ass. Okay, but screw you because you have problems and you know you want to feel like a martyr and you want to do this, Well, guess what, You're just trying to justify your own crappy behavior and ingratitude to what a

person that you respect to. So that's why I thought it was such a low blow, because people like that drive me crazy. It is a hundred it's a hundred percent low blow. But just playing Devil's advocate, I feel like just is also in he does he did this to Rory. He knows that Rory is so much better than him that he has to go away, you know what I mean. Like at least that's what is like his insecurity, like I'm not good enough for her. Yeah.

But but I think he feels the same way about Luke, Like I think he genuinely thinks this person is like the only father figure he's ever had and he doesn't want to be there to ruin his life, like in a weird way, Like I do get that impression doesn't make it right, but like it's almost like he's doing it for the right reasons, even though in his head, I think in Rory case, yes, and Luke's case, it's a bit of a stretch for me to get there. Um. You know, but I hear what you're saying. I think

subconsciously people do do this. Um. Yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting take. Um. But still um. But one of the great moments of purity and nobility that he displayed on the show was when he didn't say anything on the telephone when he called her from Venice Beach, right say anything. It was like, I'm here. Uh, the world society has erased me. I'm here. I love you, but I can't love you and I can't be in your life.

I thought it was one of the pure moments his character has had, right, true truly seeing what he was. It was a true, beautiful moment of introspection. I can't wait to hear your thoughts on the end of this episode. Yeah, it was, it was, It was. It was just's most honest moment. Yeah, you mean, the silent phone call. And he because he knows what he brings to the table and he knows that he can't be that guy for her. Um, And it's it was It was really tragic, it really was,

but it was beautiful for his character. It was it was he really went deep on that one. I go to is leaving though, his go to move because he left when the car crashed, he left, then he leaves on the bus, and then now he's leaving again. It's like his go to when well, he left like three times this episode, like Rory cap seeing Jess and like runaway, runaway, run away, and on the last scene see that, Roy's like, no,

this is my town. I gave not you. Um. Yeah, And I know he's been left essentially, his dad left him, his mom gave him away. So so he knows it from past behavior. When the going gets tough, you just tall ass you give up. That's really interesting, right, that's like the learned. That's what he's learned to leave. And so he quits life, he quits people, he quits on himself. He knows how to quit. He is he is the

definition of a quitter. And it's tragic because he's so he's so appealing in so many ways, and he's so smart, and he's so you know, he's that guy that needs somebody that's not related to him to come into his life and inspire him to stop quitting, you know, somebody, because there's there's such a well of talent there. You just know it, you just feel it that Jess can do will do extraordinary things. That's really true. It's a non relative like he needs like the boss with the

coach or the whoever. It's it's just a it's a random person. It's a you know, maybe he hands up in city college somewhere and there's a professor and who sees the potential in, you know, and one thing leads to another and next thing, you know, he's you know, he's creating headlines. So I see him as as having that depth of talent because he's so smart. Hey there, I'm Hollen rode In and I am the host of a new podcast called Holler Back Now NICs Colan Beacon

Hills and the Wolves are coming out again. You know me as Lydia Martin. I'm teen Wolf and on this podcast, we will rewatch every episode from the beginning. So join me and my favorite Teen Wolf stars and friends as we reunite the cast, the crew, and the heroes and the villains. Will be sharing every Gorey detail with you because as if a hundred episodes wasn't enough. I am bringing you all the behind the scenes. There's gonna be

so much more from each episode. Nothing is off limits and oh that's right, we'll be talking about teen Wolf the movie. I cannot wait. The Wolves are hell and once again, what can I say? So holler back now and join us each week listen to Holler Back Now on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts. So let's talk about to me, what is one of the most important scenes in this episode. There's probably a couple the interaction between lord lyon Liz.

So lor La comes up to the truck, she thinks it's Luke. It's not Luke, and oh, you're the you're the wife. I'm not I'm actually not the wife. And she says, huh, you look like his type. There was a few little subliminal things in there that I was like, oh wow, and then she says oh. And in that same convertation, in that same conversation, Laura like like calls Luke maybe one of the own Yes, right, there's two

things in that. Those are the two things that are so important, And then you really get the inside of Liz where she says, I'm a pain in his ass, and Loria says, aren't we all? You know? I screw up, he fixes it. I screw up, he fixes it. I'm out of money. He gives me money. I need a place to stay. He finds me a place to stay. And then she even acknowledges like I should have sent just to him sooner, sooner, she says, my hero so to me like that scene, and now she wants to

move back. But it's just such an important scene. And then you're right, she says, he's one of the only good ones. And then she says, by friend and customer, not wife like it just was like I know, like she knows, she knows, of course she knows. She gives the ear rings and says, oh, you could give this to your wife or lower Lie. I know, it's so good, it's so good. What did you think? And then what does he do? Right? That Nicole is such a waste

of her breath. So Scott, because you're really seeing that scene, because you're not in that scene, even though it's all about you for the first time, So as Scott, who is a k a luke like were you like, oh, whoa, what did you think that is interesting? It's character of development for Luke with in the in this scene that such a groople to say it, you know, I think it shows Laura being concerned for Luke and his emotional

well being after being ripped apart by Jess. Overall, I don't think that that's happened yet, that scene happened overall over specific about it, um And then now here's the mother, here's the person who created the Jess. I mean, which is worse? Right? So I think it's it's it's gloralized showing a level of concern for Luke's well being. It's like, I'm going to talk to this person. Uh. She doesn't

trust Liz as much as she doesn't trust Jets. So that was an interview and it was like to get us a feel, to get a sense that she initiated it. She thought it was Luke and ran up um. But I mean, there's a lot of distance between those two, and it's like, I don't trust you, Liz. You are the creator of Jess, so you're worse than Jess. I did not even think of that. And Liz is there, you know, Liz is sitting there you know, Lottie don

things are going to be great, isn't it wonderful? She doesn't understand there's she's so unaware of the effect she's had over the years. She's so unaware that nobody trusts her. There's not a single person that trusts her. Her son doesn't trust her, her brother doesn't trust her. And now obviously Laurel I doesn't trust her, and she's not worthy?

Is she worthy? So how far down you know, the scale of on human existence is she where she's this very likable personality that's very jovial, happy, positive, cool, you know,

hippie devil may care personality. Um, And she's she's not stupid, um, and she's got a new fella and things are maybe turning around for her, you know, And she's just completely unaware that she is unacceptable and that what needs to happen is for her to have you know, her come to Jesus moment and clean up her act and realized that she owes people a ton of apologies all over the place, so they'll work on herself instead of trying to have another guy come in the scene who has

the nerve to stand there and call me and you know, throw an expert it at me because I'm a concerned brother. It's like, you know, f hm, well right, but there's I mean, I've I've been in that situation. I've talked to guys like that that were with my sister and then she just had a long line here I go, I'm not gonna go. I'm sorry, I'm gonna sorry, I'm

not gonna go there. But it's but it's you know, what the Palladinos are giving us is the light, cleaned up version of horrible things, and and they're making it digestible, they're making it palatable. Yeah, well, you brought up something sous of it. How do you take something that dark and that destructive and make it entertaining and funny? Well, because you make those characters likable. But here's my question.

Is it a good idea to do that to a character like Liz, who is you know, she's an addict and she's screwed up her son and she you know, right, is there something Scott, You're bringing up something so fascinating. Civic duty on the part of creators not to to rehabilitate these awful characters in this way? I don't know, because here's what I'm thinking about now that you pointed out two things I really want to ask you about. Number One, You're right, So why are the sugarcoating something?

I like Liz? Right? I like Liz, and I have literally forgotten that she gave her kid away, Like I'm just like giving her a hale pass for that, Like she literally abandoned her child, which is really really bad, really bad, Yes it is, and I have completely given her a pass. So I thought that's such an interesting point, Like she is so likable, and I'm like, why is he vam so tough on her? But it's like she gave up her kid to him? And I do think we are glossing over that. So here's the other side

of it. You know, you as the person you are, me the person I am, Daniel. Okay, we haven't had a just a different experience through life. We we handle things in a different way. When we get in trouble to get out of whatever, we have a willpower. There's a willpower certain people don't have that. Liz is a person who doesn't have that. So do you accept that as a justifiable argument excuse this behavior and to continue to forgive and to continue to hope to continue to

engage yourself in that person's life. I did until you brought it up, until you've said it to me this way, which is making me think. And I think the other thing is and I know you don't want to necessarily go there, but because you have such personal experience with something like that, you're seeing it so clearly almost where You're like, Luke is not happy, and he is right to feel that way. Where I'm kind of like Lottie

Dottie Dog. Liz is school. She makes everything, she's funny, she's she's cute, and it's like, you're right, I've completely ignored the fact she gave up her kid, and also that she's letting her kid just go off. She Luke is the one giving the money. Luke is the one checking on the car, and Jess Liz is like not even caring that Jesse is off going. We don't even

know where the hell he's going. Yeah, because even in her recovered state, right like she you know, let's say she is an addict, Like she's doing well right now, so it seems, but she still doesn't have the capacity to look after her child, who's in the same city as her and clearly, Daniel, that's so right. And then Scott, I thought you said something so interesting. You said a lie goes up and loyal lies being loyal Lie. She's

so cute and bubbly and sweet, but she's interviewing Liz. Now, I thought Liz past that interview because I thought the takeaway from that scene was LORELEI had a better understanding of Liz. And my gut was when she walked away from the truck she liked Liz. Yeah, but I thought, you're right, Like it wasn't so obvious, but like, yeah, she should be questioning Liz. Liz is the mother who abandoned this hoodlum who has literally devastated her daughter. She

was actually quite kind to Liz. She could have come in hot and been like, what is up with you? You sent this kid here who broke my daughter's heart. Yeah, I I don't. I don't know that you want to engage your personality like that right off the first meeting

in that way? Well, right, right, right, obviously right, I think becoming feisty, right, yeah, you'd be you'd be a little more cautious and not that she would be justified, but um, you know that could bend Luke's mind around and then he'd open up a cannab will pass on Laurela so to speak, you know what I mean? Like, why are you talking? Because that has that happened before? Remember their big fight backlash, right, so maybe it should have. I don't know, but listen, Lizz's entire adult life has

been a cry for help. That's what addicts do. Everything they do is a cry for help. Whether and somebody answers them or not, it's irrelevant because they don't change. Some do they get the right treatment, right, But all Liz is doing, she's coming back. It's a cry for help, new guy, cry for help. She's everybody in her life. How she treats Jess now and that scene in Luke's apartment, Oh we're all together. This is a magical configuration. It's

all come together. Nobody was feeling it, okay, except for maybe teaching t J a little bit right, and and she's very entitled, comes into the diner, takes the stakes, takes the pie, which you're kind of like, oh, that's you're you know, but that is sort of rude. And I didn't get that when when I watched it, I was like oh, let her have the stakes, like let the pie stopping a d word, Luke. The behavior behavior of addicts that personality is it's unpredictable, bizarre. You know

you would you wouldn't. You wouldn't believe it. You wouldn't believe the kind of behavior and the kind of situations and how inappropriate behavior. It's just right, disconnect. We have really forgiven her. I really did, Danniel. I don't know about you, but I did not think of any of this when I watched it. I just gave her the hall pass. Let her of the pie. He's making the chili. This is so great. You're not supposed to You're not.

It's because everybody who's is probably screaming at their car radios right now or their iPhone saying, Scott, it's just a TV show. Let us enjoy it. Yes, I agree, there's that. So there's that it's just a TV show. And that's another point of view. It's entertainment. Both can be right, both can be right, because Danielle, what were

you going to say? I was gonna say, um, what I didn't catch through this is like there is that scene where Luke is like really like he obviously is not processing Jess or Liz like in a in a way that makes them comfortable, you know what I mean, So like there is I don't know, it's yeah, it's just a clue that there's like definitely turmoil within Luke

during this, you know, during just and Lisban. Right, I'm wondering if Amy and Dan I wanted both to be true Scott, they want you to take it just how you're taking it, and also take it as it's a TV show, enjoy it because they're giving us both. Why would they give us that intense scene of like just saying I don't like any of the guys, but she's gonna do what she's gonna do, and you have to fix everybody. You always have to be the good guy, like focus on your own life and leave everyone alone.

Like that was so heavy and dramatic that it's not just a TV show. Well when people, I mean, I think the reason that Amy and Dan did that is because when you're watching, you relate to one or the other, you know, like you can be like, oh, I have somebody in my life as constantly trying to meddle in that I don't want to, or you know, like on the flip side, like I am the person that fixes things.

Why can't they, you know, appreciate it, Like it's like getting I don't know, like every person that's watching is taking something differently away from it. Well, I'll tell you everybody's feeling something. And I think that's the job. They see it. It's like, how do we make the audience feel? How does this how? And and boy, they made me feel, well, that's why they're making everybody feel. They're making babies feeling

a seven year old kids feel. Yeah, that's exactly my point because like the character of Liz does not like really, when I'm watching her, I take it at face value. I don't make hearings, you know, everything exactly. But Scott has a different reaction to that. And then like another example is Lane. For me, I relate so much to Lane, but you guys, don't you know. It's like it's different characters mean things with different almost astounding me right now.

And why I like this podcast so much is Scott I'm I'm now I'm trying to see this episode through your eyes, right, and you're right, Like Luke is right, Scott Patterson is right, like I was watching it. It's just a TV show. I'm enjoying it, but you're right, like this was messy, Like why am I just forgiving

Liz where I did? And I like her and I like t J. And I'm like, like, we can talk about that ending scene where Luke is being such a cool guy to t J. So cool, and TJ just like you're a dick, and it's like that was gnarly, But huh, I get why he's saying that, because he loves Liz and so he sees everybody's seeing things through different lenses. Both are true. I think Luke deserved that. Um he was being a d to t J. He was.

He just dismissed him right away, right. He doesn't understand that there's been you know, there's been twenty t js, yes, and they've all treated her badly, and they've Peter and they've all put her in the hospital and it's all bad. And he's just like, not gonna give this guy a chance, but you know, and then he's doing it. He is giving him a chance, like Luke always does with Liz, gives her another chance, just the way. It's just the way he came around at the end and said, you know,

you know what. I He kind of deserved that shock. He's like, you should was thinking. But I also thought it was so sweet. It was sweet. It was it's like every time this guy gets vulnerable, he gets slammed. Yeah, because then that's so true. Like if I were Luke, I'd be like, oh yeah, and thank god Lorala walked up. What so obviously he was going to give her the

earrings first of all. If I was Nicole, I'd be like, we need to be done because you do not like me, you do not want to sleep in my house, and you're giving Laurea Lae ear rings. Nicole is not around to see those things. She doesn't know the ear rings. She doesn't know that he's going over to fix the window like that. Nicole is busy reading legal briefs. And we haven't even talked about the drunkie bloody hand scene and the tenderness and there's no blood, where's the blood there?

Scott's hand was covered in blood, and Loria gets a bandon and goes like, there's just blood everywhere and just a little band aid. She I did think the scene between the two of them, though, I literally wrote they're married. They're married because she's like, yeah, I want to tell me about it. I want to tell me what happened. Like it's just like and then Lorala and Jes that confrontation. I mean, I know we have to go, but like that confrontation was amazed. We haven't even talked about Jason

and Lora, Lee and Jason and his father. Awkward, let's talk about And there was some funny part. No, no no, I was gonna say, let's talk about that, because I really want to talk about the Jesse scene, just like I love you with the very last scene, go for it, just do it? Now do that one. How do you guys feel about it? Like, I want to know how you guys felt about just saying I love you. He loves her? You know, he he ran away from her what two or three times? And he just you can't

run away from your heart. Man, I think, what else is he gonna say it's totally true? What else is he gonna say it's the truth. Yeah, it made me tear up ashore, But it was also one of those things I think Rory has been wanting to hear that for so long, and she kind of gave, you know, she kind of told him he loved her. In her own weird way when that phone call seene, but for this time, like he was just like I love you and just like so blatantly told her. I don't know.

It just made me feel some kind of way, and it's like, oh yeah, this guy, this guy is so like like turmoil, like if like for me, I'm like, just why aren't you staying just stay and make out with her and like you know, hang out with her and say sorry, like he's not doing that like for somebody you love so much, why aren't you, Well, why do you trying? Mean that he said I love you? Like he said I love you and drove away. That's not helping her with closure, Like that's just going to

make her love him more. It's like I love that he said that. But I'm also like, then why aren't you trying to make it work? And why aren't you trying to get your act together? And you know, like if you think Rory is so much better than you, then like why aren't you putting in the work to make yourself better to feel like you can Because because he's not in a stable he doesn't have a home, he's not in a stable place where he can work

on himself really. You know, he's got to get he's got to get an apartment, he's got to get a job, he's got to get back into I mean that's going to take a bit, right. He's not in no state where he can work on himself at this moment. You know. It's just it's listen, I think Rory is really fighting and moralize helping her fight this urge to save Jess. It's like, don't do this. It'll ruin your life. There's

no guarante. You might have some bliss for a year, and then it could all turn bad because you look at his history, and she's fighting that and Rory knows that that is the path to take. It's just that she loves the God. She knows that these two could be, you know, legendary. She could have a legendary love with this kid. You know, it could be wonderful. How long will it last? Though, That's the problem. It's just so

much heart right now. She's worked so hard all these years to get to Yale and she's doing so well, and here's this kid, you know, and boy, these are the big life decisions that people have to make when they're very young and they're very difficult to do, and she's really struggling with it. I don't envy her position right now because she feels that kid and they're meant to be together and they could be great together, and you can just see it and feel it and want

it to happen. But man, it could just blow up her life in ways she'll never be able to recover from Scott talk about talk about traumatic tension because her life can go two ways. Like think of the say she runs after him and off she goes. That changes the whole course of her life. But if she's deals with this heartache and goes back to Yale and does Yale, her life goes a totally different way. Logan anyway, and how is she going to feel? She never gives this

a chance? Right, And ten fifteen years down the road, she's married, she's got a couple of kids, she's got a nice job in journalism, and she's kind of ho hum suburban life and she's not she loves her husband, but it ain't Jess, you know what I mean, there's only right, right, So there's all kinds of decisions to make right, Yeah, every you have, you you know, let's throw it back on YouTube ladies, Has there been a Jess in your life when you were young? That's such

a good question, Thank you very much. I've had like fifty Jesse's and thank god I didn't thank god I didn't end up with any of them, because Jesse's can be bad. Although the problem is I know a year in the life, so it's like Jess isn't bad, but she should have ended up with Jess. That's probably would have been the great move for her, but at the time like Jesse's are bad. Yeah, Danielle, is your husband a Jess, a Logan or a Dean? You don't know Logan.

I don't know Logan. I can't answer that. Claude Cannon your husband, I didn't answer. Jogin? Is that a thing's? A Jogin? Would be a Jogin would be the ultimate. He's a gene. Actually, how do you say all three? Because if you could all three? Yeah, if you could mine all three? Uh, Dean Jodan from the background, mss Msscott Patterson just crushed the podcast and she nailed it again. Three. We're literally tell her she's just now become iconic and

we're going to use that constantly. That is so perfect because a Joe Gadin is the ultimate dude. Oh my god, we have to start using that when we do Rapid Fire with guests. Oh my god, Wait, do you have favorite lines? I mean, I just loved the whole episode, so it's like, I don't know my favorite line minds from Emily in the beginning, she goes, Richard, I need a gimlet. That actually was so good and I just

gotta squeeze this in. But honorable clown Pillow mentioned oh yeah, yeah, I didn't even see it, but obviously came in hot in the beginning of the not the wife is probably I'm not the wife. Yeah, I'm I'm gonna. I don't usually want to usually recuse myself on favorite lines for Luke, but I think he delivered the coup de gras on this one when he said to Jess towards the end of that scene, that was so revealing um and referencing uh, referring to t J as he's a grown man with

an I just catch. Oh yeah, that was a line. Okay, So I don't know whether we do one to ten kirkwalkie talkies or one to ten band aids, or I was gonna say one to ten AMC Ambassador Cars. Which one do you guys want to do? You want to do one to tend bloody hands? Ye want to bloody hands? What he said something? What did he say about his hand? I got a handful of Barbie? Well? Yeah? Does that mean? Sorry?

It was probably really obvious and I just, you know, I heard there was there was a couple of lines. I'm like, what's hand? You want to do? Bloody hands? Pop tarts? We had pop tarts? They were Barbie band aids. Oh, thank you, Jackie, they were Barbie band aids. I get a handful of Barbie band I was saying, like barbed wire, look like Barbie like one to ten Kirkwalkie Talkies. No, okay, stop you pick, you pick. I'm sorry, I want to do I want to do List's earrings. No, no, I

want to do one to ten um Ambassador cars. Okay, Ambassador cars? Okay, what the AMC Ambassadors? Okay you go? Oh you'll go last, Daniel, Do you want to go first? Sure? Nine point five? Nine? Ten? Wow. I just it's how many episodes in a row that have been perfection. I just think season four is showing not only is it a ten Rush Joe Gadine for life, for life. That's what we should have done. Okay, So what's next week? Season four, episode fourteen, The Incredible more than halfway through

season four, Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. Well that's gonna rapid, folks. Uh yeah, welcome to the mountains. Are calling, the goats are yolding and I gotta get up there. I just gotta get up there. Well, I gotta strap on the skis and just get up that hill and then get down that hill and you can ski because later this week you've got interviews and pop culture. So thank you, Thank you everybody, thanks of downloading. Best fans on the planet. Um, have a great I hope all

your dreams come true. And uh, I love y'all. And uh and that's it. We'll see you next time. Be safe, hey everybody, and don't forget follow us on Instagram at I Am All In podcast and email us at Gilmore at I heart radio dot com. Oh you Gilmore fans. If you're looking for the best cup of coffee in the world, go to my website from my company scott ep dot com, s C O T T y P dot com, Scott E P dot com, Grade one specialty coffee. Yeah.