I am all in.
That's just you. I Am all in with Scott Patterson an iHeartRadio podcast.
Everybody Scott Patterson, I Am all In Podcast one eleven productions, iHeartRadio, iHeartMedia, iHeart Podcast. One on one interview with Jonathan Decker, who is an LMFT. He is a licensed marriage and Family therapist and the CEO of Cinema Therapy and clinical director of Mended Light. He is a movie buff who has started a YouTube channel of therapizing if that's a word, a TV and film. He's got some links to Laurele I and Emily Scenes, Luke and Laurel I Scene, all kinds of things.
iHeart podcasts. Listen on the iHeartRadio app.
Tell us a little bit about how you ended up analyzing films and TV shows and characters they're in.
Yeah, well, thank you for having me. I am a forty three year old late bloomer for Gilmore Girls. I missed it by a couple of decades and now I'm just adoring it and can't get enough of it. But I've gotten to psychology. I wanted to be a filmmaker or director or a therapist, and when I was in school that's I was leaning one way or the other. Finally some work with some Matris teenagers, kind of like Jess. It steered me in the direction of psychology and therapy.
But my passion for film never left me. And you know, I'd love to use movies and TV shows to illustrate abstract concepts about when you're talking about. Because I became a family therapist, healthy relationships, unhealthy relationships, What do these principles look like? Applied? And I found that film and TV was perfect in classes and in therapy for illustrating what I was talking about.
So why did you choose Gilmore Girls?
I chose Gilmore Girls. That was actually our fans. So I've got the two channels Cinema Therapy and then Mended Light and Men Died Light. We do more television breakdowns, and the fans on Mended Light. I was asking, you know, what should I do next? I covered a couple of things, Buffy the Vampire Schleayer, Euphoria, a couple of things, and overwhelmingly the demand was for Gilmore Girls, far more than any show that's airing now, I have to say, And I was in my twenties when Gilmore Girls came out.
I was not especially interested at the time. I was super into twenty four and Lost in the Office and things like that. And what's funny to me now that I'm watching Gilmore Girls is Luke is a character who would likely not watch a show called Gilmore Girls.
That's for sure.
So I see it, but I see him. If I had watched it, then I really I would have realized, Oh, Luke is, in addition to being a wonderful character in his own right, strategically, he's the surrogate for the boyfriends and the husbands who might not take interest to are forced to watch this show with their girlfriends or their wives. And then and then they attached to Luke. You know that that Luke kind of keeps everything real, keeps everything dry, brings it down to earth.
Uh.
But and so I started doing reaction videos to talk about the relationships on Gilmore Girls, and they are far and away our most popular videos on the channel. People just can't get enough of them, which staying power because you know, it's been a minute since you've been on the air, and people just revisit it and love it and share it with their their own daughters. And strangely I'm drawn into it.
Let's get into the therapy of it.
Then.
Yeah, so we think laurla I moved too fast into a relationship with Christopher. What do you think was her thought processing that was trying to use him to heal from Luke.
Yeah, well, I listen. Having so a little bit of a quick background, I was part way through the fourth season when I got contacted about this podcast, and I have crammed for the Final Life so in the past week and a half binging gil Girls from season four, season seven, and so it's all very fresh for me. And I do think Loralai has always used Christopher as the It was the plan that she had in mind if he ever grew up right, if he ever got his act together. And I absolutely think she realized that
Luke is her soulmate. I think she realized that Luke is better to her than anyone's ever been to her, and that wound is so fresh and so deep that she's going to go to what she's comfortable with, even though she knows it's wrong, right wrong for her. She's been down that road with Christopher several times, and the biggest determinant of that is not because Christopher has grown up in a lot of ways, but is where her heart lies. And her heart absolutely lies with Luke. There's
no ifs ans or butts about that. I was team Luke from the first episode. By the way, I'm not even brown nosing. I'm just saying, before I even knew that you had a podcast or that you and I were going to be interacting in all my videos, I just kept saying, if she doesn't lose, if she doesn't choose Luke by the end, I'm gonna riot.
And riot we will.
So the obvious advice would be for Laura I to give herself more time between dumping Luke and getting involved with Christopher again.
But do you think that part of her wanted to.
At least try to see if it could work out to complete her own family dynamic.
She didn't want to live with it. What if. I don't know that she needed to take it all the way to marriage, but to always whether she ended up with Luke or not, should I close the door on Christopher permanently or could it work out this time? And I think she needed to explore that space in order to have to have closure, and for all she knew
it was going to work out this time. Right, and she entered into it perhaps headstrong and perhaps on the rebound and perhaps hurting, but I think she entered into it with good faith of want I want to have
this family dynamic that I've always wanted to have. And what I love about the previous episode to the one we're talking about today, or at least I guess the past couple episodes, when she writes that letter for Luke, it's because she realizes that Luke has been more of a father to Rory than Christopher ever was, and he's in that sense been more of a partner to me and in a lot of other senses as well.
M all right, so you know that Christopher really pushed her to marry him in Paris? Yeah, what would have been a different option to handle the forceful way Christopher was asking Laurel I to marry him.
What should Laurel I maybe have done?
I think if there is one of one of loural Live's weaknesses and one of her beautiful characteristics, honestly, is that she can be spontaneous and what she's feeling is what she runs with, and sometimes she regrets that and sometimes following her gut leads her down the path. Christopher pressured her, and she yielded, And I think she yielded, as you were saying, for all for other reasons you're talking about. I think she wanted to test this family dynamic,
see that could finally work. I think the fact that if you have ever loved somebody and there's still goodwill between you, then that love is always there. It may change form, it may no longer be romantic, it may no longer be sexual, but the people that matter to us will always matter to us. And so it gets kind of hazy. So what could she have done? She
could have asked for time. She could have said, you know, we're in Paris and I'm heartbroken and I don't want to end up alone, and so I don't know if I want to say yes to you, Christopher. I don't know if that's Paris and my loneliness talking, or if that's because this is right and I've been through enough that I really want to make sure it's on stable footing.
So I'm not saying no. I'm saying, let me let me think about it, and let me let me examine my heart and see what it is that I want to do.
What do you think of Christopher's he is he just selfish or is he a narcissist?
Because it always seems to come back. I mean even when he's you know, it's always about him.
He always makes it about him, and he has inconvenience and he was busy and I'm sorry I couldn't. You know, he didn't show up at the hospital in season seven for Richard because he was a little in a snit over Luke.
I would say more selfish than narcissism. I mean, you can say there's narcissistic traits there. The key thing about you know, narcissistic personality disorder that separates it from ego or self absorption is a lack of passion, is a lack of empathy. And Christopher feels genuine remorse when he
hurts people. The issue with him is that he's so consistently he's the yin to you to Luke's yang, because Christopher so consistently puts himself first, and then he feels bad for hurting others for when he does that and Luke does the opposite. He consistently puts other people first, and then what's left for him, you know, And I think that's one of the reasons why Luke is so often unhappy and grumpy is because he gives so much
because he doesn't know how to not give. And I love watching some of you know, Luke's journey to kind of a healthier self interest, right to finding that balance because the thing that I love about Luke all the way back to one of my favorite moments very early on, is he hates and mocks the whole we're going to go stand out in the snow and do the Revolutionary War reenactment, but he still brings the guy's coffee, right, and then when they ask for when they say can
we get hot chocolate or apple cider instead? Instead of saying are you kidding me? He just goes and they starts taking people's words, Like Luke is always gonna do the selfless thing, and I think Christopher is the opposite of that.
Well, let's move on to the breakup. Do you think that Christopher could have changed his jealous ways when it came to Luke and because he displayed this kind of immaturity and jealousy. First of all, do you think that jealousy was justified? Do you think her behavior was in any way antagonistic or disrespectful toward Christopher.
Ah, if it was, it certainly wasn't deliberate, right. I think Loralai was coming from a place of sincerity. And the thing about Christopher is, we're watching someone across the series, and when all the characters are like this, we're watching a growth arc, right, We're watching people grow into maturity.
And Christopher has come a long way since we first met him, but in other ways he hasn't, And especially when his insecurity is he I think wants to be He wants to be desired and he wants to be loved, and that's fine, that's a human need. But the issue is if somebody else is desired and loved instead of me, is that a deficiency on my part instead of just simply this is who the other person chooses, you know. And in defense of Christopher, they are. They are married
and so he's not entitled. But I do understand that that would be a painful thing to recognize and realize. But the mature, the mature way to handle it is always if it's if it's truly love, I want you to be with me, but more than that, I want you to be happy. And if you're not going to be happy with me. If you're going to be happier with Luke, if you're going to be happier on your own, then I want that for you. And what I see with Christopher a lot is is not necessarily actual love
for Lorli. The attraction is there, attack is there, even affection is there like and it's all genuine and sincere. But in order for it to be love, it has to be what do you what do you need for your happiness? And I want that for you?
And he just wasn't willing. Well. He eventually did come around to that.
Yeah, yeah, you know he was. He was afraid of losing hers. He was really just hanging on for dear life.
Yeah, I think, And I think that's a very compassionate way to look at him. And the fact is we we tend to be very judgmental of people and their behaviors and just in general. And if you look at any Gilmore Girls fan forums, I mean there's people of all sorts of opinions and get fired up because they
care so much. But the fact is, most of our most harmful behaviors, most of the things that we do that cause the most pain, come from a place of our own pain come from we want to Everyone wants to feel safe, respected and loved, and our worst behaviors are either efforts to be safe, respected and loved or reactions to not feeling safe, respected and loved. And so
I don't fault Christopher. I just feel like it's a shame he lacks the maturity because if he could show up with maturity, with selflessness, with integrity, and with accountability, he could have ended up with Laura Lai. There are several times while watching the show, I'm like, oh, I mean, I'm team Luke, but I can I wouldn't hate it if she ended up with Christopher. I thought that several
times during the show. But every time he did something, you know, out of his own self interest first and foremost before his daughter and the mother of his daughter, I fell back on your side, brom.
So, all right, so this, you know, it all ended between Laura and Christopher, with her saying you're the man I want to want. Why do you think it took her so long to get there? Let's go to the end of the relationship.
Okay.
So with Laura I and Christopher mutually agreeing that they should go their separate ways, she says, you're the man I want to want.
Why do you think it took her this long to get there?
I think the Gilmours are a passionate family. I look at Richard and Emily and for all their pretenses of high society and doing things the proper way, you look at any time they feel offended or slided, and it's all passion. And it's a similar thing with Rory and with Laura. I it's hard to follow your head when you're just guided by your heart. And that's the thing about these these passionate characters, is Lorelai why did it take her so long to say this to Christopher to
get there? Because of Max Medina, because of Luke, because of the things that she wants out of her life, because the times that she's felt hurt and had to protect herself, you know, from from a million things where it's hard to know what you actually want when you're focused on the feeling of the moment.
Boy, is that that is the truest statement?
Yeah, Well, people really get lost in the moment, don't they, And they just forget about the macro they do.
And that's and that's one thing I always liked about Luke you know, and I don't want to be a such a Luke stand here that I can't admit his faults. But is Luke from the opening episode, Luke knows exactly who is. He loves his diner, you know, he tolerates the people in the town and secretly adores them and would do anything for them, but he's not going to let them know that, you know. And he craves a
simple life and deeply he craves he craves connection. But you know, when when Richard's trying to get Luke to franchise uh and and Emily's basically telling Luke you're not good enough, it, it shakes him in it for a moment. But what Luke always comes back to is I know what I want. And I think Luke is the opposite of Loraai because Luke sometimes is too much in his head. I think he's too much what's here's the here's the choice,
here's what I'm doing, here's my life. And you know, especially in seasons five and you see kind of lore Lie opening up more of that that heart side of Luke that he's kept buried. And that's why I think they're a good balance for each other because Luke is a stabilizing influence for Law overall, and Lorelai helps Luke to come out and to feel and to be presentent and not be detached and distant.
Right, right, let's do a sidebar, yeah, because because I want to talk about a little bit about and then we'll get back on the Luke Laurelei Christopher dynamic. But since since it's so prevalent in season seven, but tell me about your thoughts on because the thing I always wondered and what I found fascinating about Laurel's character is how quippy she is and how clever she is, and how fast and funny she is, and how the humor is constant.
And people often.
Do that because they are uncomfortable in a situation and they know intimacy or they can't be intimate in that situation with loved ones or friends or whatever.
So it's just like joke after joke after show.
Yeah, it's a it's a defense makes it's a protective mask. This is something in our in our mended light reactions to Gilmore Girls that I've said is simultaneously endearing to Lauraai about about Loralai to me and drives me crazy. Is anytime there is an apology to be made, she leads with a very awkward icebreaker and further alienates the people that she's hurt. He sees then and then I remember there's a different episode where Rory does the same thing,
and I said, yep, they are family. But that's just but that's just good writing. You know that that type of consistency, and it absolutely is this this fear of vulnerability, and I think she comes by that honestly. You know, vulnerability was punished in her family growing up. Declaring what you want, declaring your hurt was met with defensiveness and blame shifting and and Laurie, Laura, I was never allowed to just be real. And so this is how she
learned to cope. And you see this with her parents all the time. Loralai is always throwing jokes towards her parents that her parents don't think is funny, but Laura doesn't care. They're not for them, for her, They're gonna help her. They're gonna help her to feel more comfortable. Like she's having a little one woman show and she's both the performer and the audience, you.
Know, exactly exactly, Yeah, but you also see, speaking of character growth, when she's truly comfortable with a person, she doesn't feel the need to do that.
There are times with Rory that she doesn't lead with jokes. There are times with Luke that she doesn't lead with jokes. There are times you know in this episode that I that we just watched a season seven episode fifteen, she has a beautiful conversation with her mother where she tells her mother that she and Christopher broke up and I wrote it down. I thought it was so f she says, we split up. I don't know, and then Emily says, I don't know what to say, and Laurai says, really, that's great.
And that's great. You don't ever have to say anything. We don't have to talk about it, right, it's good.
We're we're all good. Yeah. But Emily for the first time shows just not maybe not for the first time, but we're seeing late in the in the series, Emily more and more just being real and valuing emotion over over prestige or status or stat or or the norms
right that she's supposed to fulfill. And when Lauraai feels comfortable with her mom, she jokes less m and then when LAURAAI jokes, it's not to protect herself, it's just because she's still She's still her, she still likes to amuse herself, right, but it's no longer a mask.
Uh.
And that's the difference, right.
Would you say that with Laura l I there's a reservoir of anger toward Emily and even toward Richard because of the experience of being pregnant sixteen pretty much being banished for not yeah, you know, telling the Gilmore line as it were.
Do you do you find that to be the case?
Yeah? I mean, and we see that all throughout the series, that there are steps towards healing. But I like to tell people we have the wrong idea about forgiveness. We think forgiveness is a I forgive you and then it's done. It's like it never happened. But forgiveness to me is like exercise. You have to you have to do it consistently to see the benefits, and this family takes It's hard. It's hard to forgive because there's so little accountability. But
whenever it does happen and steps are made, the pain resurfaces. Right, Those wounds don't just go away. So it's not like you forgive somebody and then the wounds are gone. I forgive every time the pain comes up. I forgive every time the offense happens, because that's how I have to deal with it. And so what we see across the entire series is a family healing baby steps, just these tiny little micro steps at a time.
So it's your defining forgiveness as something that is to make a commitment too, because it's going to that forgiveness. Is that same forgiveness of that same issue is going to rise up time and time and time again throughout your life with that individual.
Yes, And I want to make a caveat because forgiveness, forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. I think trust has to be earned, and in order for us to have close relationships, there has to be trust, which is why several times throughout the series you see Loralai withdrawing from her parents because there's no trust there, there's no safety there. It doesn't mean she hates them, it doesn't mean she doesn't love them. It just means she
doesn't feel safe with them. Forgiveness is I'm releasing bitterness and anger so that I don't carry it with me.
Right, So it's for you.
It's almost a selfish thing, or it's a healing thing, a personal healing thing.
It's a self healing thing, and we extend compassion to the person who gives offense by understanding where they come from. If Loralai were in therapy with me throughout the series, I'd be like, look, we can't control what your parents do. We can try to influence, we can try and help them have light bulb moments to see things differently, but they've shown their incredibly rigid so we can't control what
they do. We can control what you do, and every time they hurt you when you choose to let go, not to condone and not to say it's okay, but to say, Emily's gonna and Emily's gonna Emily and Richard's gonna. Richard, Right, They're gonna do what they do. So how close do I want to be with them depends on how much I trust them. Not a lot Friday night dinners, Right, that's what we got. We're not much in each other's
lives other than that because there's no trust there. But Loralai could be happier unless bothered by what Emily and Richard do by practicing forgiveness. Again, it's not because they deserve it. It's because this is how I keep my side of the street clean. It's how I heal and when we have interactions, it's how I keep things from going bad on my end, right, I help de escalate the situation.
Interesting, forgiveness is a powerful thing. It is, yeah, a powerful, powerful thing.
What do you think about the way.
Luke and Laurel I communicate because it seems like it seems like, you know, we discussed in a nauseum about the April coming and seeing him wanting to spend time with her away from Laurel I, and he kind of shut Laurel I e out of that whole experience.
What do you think about that whole arc?
So as candidly, there's two parts of me. There's a part of me that is frustrated because it feels like, well, we don't have a finish line for the series, so we're creating some new drama when after all these seasons, I like a lot of people just want to see Luke and Loralei together and more or less happy, right, But at the same time, I don't think it's untrue to Luke. Luke and Lorali both strike me as people who've experienced what I call micro traumas right. We often
in the psychological world we think of trauma. We think of near death experiences, right or abuse or some heinous acts of violence, or near or almost dying. But the fact is, like the little things can pile up and have the same response in our in our brains right where where we feel triggered, and then we want to with wrong, and we take actions to protect ourselves, and we lie instinctively because we don't want to be hurt again, or because we don't want to hurt a person that
we care about. Was I frustrated that Luke didn't tell Laura Liaie for such an extended period of time. Yes, I think everybody was. I'm you you probably were. But at the same time, I don't think it's it's untrue to somebody like Luke who has had his heart broken a bunch of times, someone like Luke who has lost his lost his father, has had a rocky relationship with his sister, who took Jess in and completely gave his
heart and soul to Jess. I mean the fact that he was you know, a bit of a bit of a punk about it the whole time is just Luke, but but he was, he was one hundred percent there
for Jess. And how many times this man feels like I've done something where I screwed it up, because that's that's part of Luke's selflessness is he also takes responsibility for the happiness of other people, right, And so Luke having a daughter that he didn't know about, he now feels like I missed all these years where I could have been a dad, where I could have been there for her. I imagine there's a little bit of looking in the mirror, feeling like a failure of why didn't
the mother tell me and involve me in this? And then Laurai has made it very clear several times like and and I know Luke and Lauray have talked about having kids together. But then there are also times where she thought she was pregnant, right, and she was, and she didn't tell Luke about this, But there's just biased from Laura. I'm like, oh, gosh, I don't want a baby right now, like oh to bring another person into their lives, and I think Luke panics, And so this
is all listen. I don't want to be too big of a I'm biased, but I think therapy helps with these types of things. And that leads up, Oh, that opens up another avenue of how do you get someone like Luke into therapy because it's it's not his jam and I and I have to say, as a therapist, my absolute favorite Luke moment is when he's listening to the tapes and the and the whole time he's just like, this is such bull crap, and he's just he thinks it's so ridiculous, and that he has a light bulb
moment that you know, of who do you choose? Who do you really want to be with? Who do you want to see?
Who's face do you see?
Right?
Right?
Who's face are you thinking of?
Right?
That that whole right and.
Two things happen for Luke. One is on the much bigger important level, is that he realizes Laura lies. The one but two for me as a therapist is realizing, oh, maybe this isn't such you know malarkey after all.
So let's move on to you know, some of the parental relationships in the show. You know, Laurel I not having a stable male figure in her life, either growing up or in the early part of her adult life.
Other than Luke, I would say.
Yeah, how do you think this affects Rory going forward and Rory making her choices life partner?
I think Rory has had a wonderful model in her mother. You know, you can say in a lot of traditional mom things, Lorlai is not that she's a very different person, but in what truly matters, the support and the unconditional love and the sense of belonging you know that she gives Rory. I think Rory knows that she can do it on her own because she's seen her mom do it. And so my hope for Rory and I understand there's
a Gilmore Girls A year in the life again. I spent the past couple of weeks catching up on three seasons of Gilmore Girls to get up to where we are today. So I don't know what happens after this.
All right, we'll have you back on after you watch the Netflix episodes.
Okay, I would love that. Yeah, I would love that, Thank you. Yeah, But I do hope for Rory that, Okay, I can do it on my own. So if I have somebody, it's because I want this person not because I need a man, not because I need a partner. It's because I want to share this experience, my life and maybe create starting a family or whatever with this
specific person. And I think Rory has been a lot like Laura LII, and that Laura Liai knows that she can stand on her own, but she still really wants somebody, and sometimes she wants it so painfully that she makes not great choices. That's Laurali. That's also Rory right again, very passionate people, but you see them across the series grow more into Okay, I'm going to bring my my judgment up to my passion right that I'm going to I'm going to lead with my head and my heart
when it comes to when it comes to relationships. And so that's my assessment of Rory. So we'll see what happens if I'm right or not.
See what happens. What do you think of Season seven?
So far? So good?
There's some good episodes.
There's some actually very very good episodes in season seven so far.
I have gotten into the fan debate, and I know there's something for a lot of TV shows and a lot of my favorite TV shows there's like a five season curse. You have a really solid five seasons and then after that it's hit or miss. I think The Office, twenty four, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, these all shows that I like that that happens with. So here's my take on season seven. The writing isn't as sharp and it's not as consistent, but there are moments that make up for it.
It's very well said, that's very well set. There's some big moments, very well set.
This moment between Lorli and Emily in this episode we just watched, where Laurla is expecting her mom's judgment and disdain and just gets acceptance is beautiful, is wonderful. Frankly, I feel I don't know if you followed uh The Office all the way to the end, but their their final season reminds me a lot of Season seven of Gilmore Girls, in that, Okay, we're no longer in the prime, but we're substitute. We're trading some of the wit and some of the consistency for a few standout moments that
everyone really wants and needs. You know, not not to get off the Gilmore Girls too much, but like if you go into the Office, Jim and Pam and their marriage is on the rocks and they reconcile, or or Jim and Dwight becoming friends instead of being enemies. You know. There there there are emotional bits of closure that are worthwhile. And that's what I'm finding with season seven.
Interesting Jonathan, It's been a delight. There's so much more to unpack. We're gonna let's let's have you back on very interesting insights. Yeah, watch the episodes and we'll.
Chat about it. Okay, I'll come back.
Yes, thank you, Thank you very much. I would love to be here. And for your listeners, if you want to see me break down Gilmore Girls, it's on mended Light YouTube channel and just go in there and search Gilmore Girls and you can you can watch just how much I gush over Luke as a straight middle aged man. It's kind of embarrassing. But here we are so.
Appreciate your time and your insights, and uh, you know, hopefully we'll see you soon.
Thank you.
It's been a pleasure, all right, Jonathan. Great meeting and great talking to you. Be well.
Thank you.
Hey everybody, and don't forget follow us on Instagram at I Am all In podcast and email us at Gilmore at iHeartRadio dot com