Dr. Liz: Hi everyone. Dr. Liz: Dr Liz here, welcome to the Hypnotize Me Dr. Liz: podcast. Dr. Liz: I'm glad you're here, glad you're listening Dr. Liz: and learning, and hopefully it will help Dr. Liz: you with your journey along the way. Dr. Liz: I am a psychotherapist with a specialty in Dr. Liz: anxiety, insomnia and deeper emotional Dr. Liz: healing.
Dr. Liz: Hypnosis is one of the tools in my toolbox Dr. Liz: that I use to help people feel better and Dr. Liz: help people is one of the tools in my Dr. Liz: toolbox that I use to help people feel Dr. Liz: better and help people be better. Dr. Liz: I do work all over the world. Dr. Liz: Please feel free to reach out and contact Dr. Liz: me if you would like some help.
Dr. Liz: I've been an entrepreneur for most of my Dr. Liz: adult life, built an award-winning company, Dr. Liz: sold it and then focused mainly on my Dr. Liz: private practice. Dr. Liz: That gives you a unique perspective, Dr. Liz: especially my ability to work with people Dr. Liz: in business at all kinds of levels.
Dr. Liz: Before I go, if you'd like to support the Dr. Liz: podcast, you can go and subscribe to the Dr. Liz: newsletter and you'll get free hypnosis Dr. Liz: downloads that you can listen to Dr. Liz: immediately. Dr. Liz: Another way is to buy one of the downloads Dr. Liz: that I have for sale. Dr. Liz: I only have a couple up there, but they're Dr. Liz: good ones. Dr. Liz: They've stood the test of time.
Dr. Liz: I made the decision to not run ads during Dr. Liz: my podcast because I really do see it as an Dr. Liz: act of service. Dr. Liz: I completely respect people who do have ads Dr. Liz: on their podcast, but it's just not my path. Dr. Liz: All right, everyone enjoy the episode and I Dr. Liz: hope to see you back here soon. Dr. Liz: Hey everyone.
Dr. Liz: Dr Liz here, the podcast has been on a bit Dr. Liz: of a break because I moved from South Dr. Liz: Florida the Fort Lauderdale area, which is Dr. Liz: just north of Miami to North Florida, Dr. Liz: jacksonville, which is right south of Dr. Liz: Georgia. Dr. Liz: So it's been a huge move for me. Dr. Liz: I've been in South Florida 30 plus years Dr. Liz: and so this was a big change I was making.
Dr. Liz: So the last couple of weeks I've been Dr. Liz: unpacking at my old house, unpacking in the Dr. Liz: new house, setting up the home office. Dr. Liz: I found it was quite echoey so I had to Dr. Liz: order some acoustic tiles to like put on Dr. Liz: the walls and carpet for the floor and try Dr. Liz: to make it to where it was not so echoey. Dr. Liz: When I recorded I really thought I might Dr. Liz: have to record in my closet, which a lot of Dr. Liz: podcasters do.
Dr. Liz: That would not really be a problem, but it Dr. Liz: is more convenient to be able to record at Dr. Liz: my desk rather than the closet. Dr. Liz: So the interview today is with Dr Navidi, Dr. Liz: who is a specialist in hypnosis for GI Dr. Liz: disorders, functional abdominal pain, ibs.
Dr. Liz: We have a great conversation because I've Dr. Liz: been doing hypnosis for IBS abdominal Dr. Liz: functional pain, reflux, those types of Dr. Liz: disorders for probably five years now, Dr. Liz: maybe six, maybe a little bit longer than Dr. Liz: that, I'm not sure. Dr. Liz: It's not a huge percentage of my practice, Dr. Liz: but I definitely have people that come in Dr. Liz: for it from time to time.
Dr. Liz: Right now I'm all virtual, but in the past Dr. Liz: it's been in person as well, but it's Dr. Liz: always an interesting part of my practice Dr. Liz: and I love helping people that way. Dr. Liz: And his whole practice is focused on that. Dr. Liz: He has quite a large practice and they see Dr. Liz: people in all 50 states, which is fantastic. Dr. Liz: And they see adults and children and Dr. Liz: adolescents, which is also great.
Dr. Liz: Adults and children and adolescents, which Dr. Liz: is also great. Dr. Liz: I only see adults. Dr. Liz: So what a great resource. Dr. Liz: So we talk about all kinds of stuff during Dr. Liz: this interview, like what types of hypnosis Dr. Liz: to do and when to seek treatment with Dr. Liz: hypnosis. Dr. Liz: That's always a big question, like when do Dr. Liz: you try that? Dr. Liz: Often it's when people have tried Dr. Liz: everything else.
Dr. Liz: Sometimes they come in a little bit earlier Dr. Liz: than that. Dr. Liz: One patient I had is referred by the head Dr. Liz: of Stanford's clinic because it's such a Dr. Liz: reputable treatment hypnosis for IBS but Dr. Liz: often you'll run into GI specialists who Dr. Liz: just poo-poo it, who, like quote unquote, Dr. Liz: don't believe in it. Dr. Liz: And it's like look, hypnosis is not a Dr. Liz: faith-based medicine.
Dr. Liz: It is well-researched and someone doesn't Dr. Liz: have to believe in hypnosis for it to work Dr. Liz: either. Dr. Liz: So anyway, occasionally you run into Dr. Liz: doctors like that. Dr. Liz: The more knowledgeable ones typically Dr. Liz: recommend hypnosis as part of someone's Dr. Liz: treatment. Dr. Liz: I've talked way too long today, so let's Dr. Liz: jump into the interview. Dr. Liz: I hope you're healthy and safe. Dr. Liz: Peace. Dr. Liz: Hi, dr Navidi.
Dr. Liz: Welcome to the Hypnotize Me podcast. Dr. Navidi: Hi, good to meet you. Dr. Navidi: I'm glad to be here. Dr. Navidi: I'm always happy to talk hypnosis with Dr. Navidi: someone. Dr. Liz: Yep, me too, me too. Dr. Liz: It's always a fascinating conversation, I Dr. Liz: will say so. Dr. Liz: We're going to just start with how you Dr. Liz: first became a psychologist and then also Dr. Liz: how you started doing hypnosis. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, so I was a microbiology major.
Dr. Navidi: Really, I was a microbiology major. Dr. Liz: Really. Dr. Navidi: And then I did biotech work for a few years Dr. Navidi: at a couple companies. Dr. Navidi: I remember I was doing yeast exocytosis Dr. Navidi: research, yeah, I don't even know what that Dr. Navidi: is really. Dr. Navidi: I don't even think I know what it is Dr. Navidi: anymore either. Dr. Navidi: I think it had something to do with a Dr. Navidi: vesicle or something.
Dr. Navidi: Anyway, luckily and I was about to go and Dr. Navidi: do my do like a PhD in biochemistry, Dr. Navidi: because I just didn't want to be a lab Dr. Navidi: monkey for the rest of my life you got to Dr. Navidi: get your PhD. Dr. Navidi: So luckily I've got a wife that's a lot Dr. Navidi: smarter than me and she kind of sat me down Dr. Navidi: and was like, look, you might want to Dr. Navidi: consider doing something you actually Dr. Navidi: really are passionate about.
Dr. Navidi: She knew I was just constantly reading Dr. Navidi: books about hypnosis, about psychology, and Dr. Navidi: just practicing on anyone around me. Dr. Navidi: So luckily, I listened to her and, long Dr. Navidi: story short, I shifted over and now I'm a Dr. Navidi: clinical psychologist. Dr. Liz: Wonderful. Dr. Liz: So I know.
Dr. Liz: For me going through grad school, I didn't Dr. Liz: actually discover hypnosis until I don't Dr. Liz: know like 20 years out of grad school Dr. Liz: actually. Dr. Liz: So it sounds like for you it happened Dr. Liz: before you went to grad school. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, it was interesting. Dr. Navidi: When I think back, I actually I think as a Dr. Navidi: teenager I found this.
Dr. Navidi: I just remember it was like this little Dr. Navidi: black book and it was old school hypnosis, Dr. Navidi: like really directive stuff was written in Dr. Navidi: maybe the sixties or seventies and and it Dr. Navidi: was a family vacation and I got all my Dr. Navidi: cousins and my sisters together and one by Dr. Navidi: one, I just tried the stuff in the book, Dr. Navidi: just just for the heck of it, and it worked Dr. Navidi: on some and it didn't work on others.
Dr. Liz: But that was probably my first experience Dr. Liz: with it, that is yeah and did you go to a Dr. Liz: program that um taught hypnosis like mine? Dr. Liz: Didn't even I. Dr. Liz: There was not a class. Dr. Liz: I know there wasn't. Dr. Navidi: No, no, no not at all, not at all. Dr. Navidi: My first internship. Dr. Navidi: It was interesting. Dr. Navidi: I wasn't like the, the supervisor.
Dr. Navidi: He actually was trained in hypnosis and Dr. Navidi: told me that I wasn't allowed to do Dr. Navidi: hypnosis. Dr. Liz: Yeah, probably Right. Dr. Liz: Because, there's all kinds of regulations Dr. Liz: around it for psychologists. Dr. Liz: There's actually more for psychologists Dr. Liz: than there are someone who doesn't have a Dr. Liz: degree. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, oh yeah.
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, someone who doesn't have a degree can Dr. Navidi: just do a weekend training and put out a Dr. Navidi: shingle Right. Dr. Navidi: But but no, so I was. Dr. Navidi: I got involved with the American society Dr. Navidi: for clinical hypnosis, ash. Dr. Navidi: I saw that you also have been associated Dr. Navidi: with them and they do some great training. Dr. Navidi: So I was doing as much ASH training as I Dr. Navidi: could, and I still do so.
Dr. Navidi: I think they're a great organization. Dr. Liz: They are and for the listeners they're a Dr. Liz: wonderful way to actually find an hypnosis Dr. Liz: practitioner. Dr. Liz: They have a tab on their website where you Dr. Liz: could find someone in your state, close to Dr. Liz: you, probably, depending on where you are. Dr. Liz: But yeah, they're a really good resource. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, they are. Dr. Liz: So then, how did you start specializing in Dr. Liz: IBS?
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, it was an Ash training and I wish I Dr. Navidi: remember the name of the guy. Dr. Navidi: He worked out of NIH and he did a talk and Dr. Navidi: at least part of the talk was on IBS, Dr. Navidi: hypnosis for IBS and at the time, hypnosis Dr. Navidi: for. Dr. Navidi: Ibs and at the time I remember thinking I'm Dr. Navidi: never going to use this, Like I wasn't Dr. Navidi: really doing a specialty in health psych. Dr. Navidi: but you know I learned it.
Dr. Navidi: And then I had a patient that had responded Dr. Navidi: already well to hypnosis and and had IBS Dr. Navidi: and I said, well, you know you want to try Dr. Navidi: this out. Dr. Navidi: And they did. Dr. Navidi: They knew I hadn't done it before, they Dr. Navidi: knew I'd been trained. Dr. Navidi: So I gave it a shot. Dr. Navidi: It worked great.
Dr. Navidi: And you know that led to another and Dr. Navidi: another and, and as I'm kind of doing it Dr. Navidi: more, I'm learning, I'm reading as much as Dr. Navidi: I can. Dr. Navidi: I tried, you know, finding other trainings.
Dr. Navidi: And then the doctors in the area, the Dr. Navidi: gastroenterologists, start kind of knowing Dr. Navidi: me and referring more and more patients and Dr. Navidi: before I know it, it's like 80% of my Dr. Navidi: practice that chronic pain and chronic pain Dr. Navidi: yeah. Dr. Navidi: You know, you know, you just end up with a Dr. Navidi: lot of complex medical cases, yes and uh, Dr. Navidi: and throughout it I kind of developed my Dr. Navidi: own way of of doing it.
Dr. Liz: I was gonna ask you do you? Dr. Liz: Did you start out with the palson protocol Dr. Liz: um, or one of the manchesters, or no? Dr. Navidi: no, you didn't I didn't, I just um.
Dr. Navidi: I kind of learned some of the principles Dr. Navidi: from the training I did and then just kind Dr. Navidi: of came up with the rest on my own, and Dr. Navidi: that's I mean I believe in learning the Dr. Navidi: right way, but my personality is I always Dr. Navidi: kind of come up with my own little twist on Dr. Navidi: things. Dr. Liz: Creative, then it's a creative process. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, very much so.
Dr. Navidi: It's very in the moment kind of adapting Dr. Navidi: things, but that's just my personal style. Dr. Liz: Yes, I have a mentor who, when I first Dr. Liz: started doing hypnosis, I actually met him Dr. Liz: at a conference, florida Society of Dr. Liz: Clinical Hypnosis, which is a state Dr. Liz: subsidiary of ASH, which we just talked Dr. Liz: about and you know, funnily enough it's Dr. Liz: called FISH, right.
Dr. Liz: But I met him there and he quickly asked me Dr. Liz: he's like are you what happens when you Dr. Liz: read a script? Dr. Liz: And I said I almost always end up changing Dr. Liz: it somehow, like I can never read a script Dr. Liz: like completely as it's written all the way Dr. Liz: through. Dr. Liz: He's like okay, so that means like you're Dr. Liz: more on the creative side, like it's a Dr. Liz: creative, intuitive process, and he really Dr. Liz: affirmed that that that's okay.
Dr. Liz: You know that that's actually a really Dr. Liz: beneficial process because you're in his Dr. Liz: perspective, you're tuning into the client. Dr. Liz: That's what you're doing and what that Dr. Liz: client really needs, and I do. Dr. Liz: The Palson Protocol, which is a protocol Dr. Liz: for the listeners developed out of Dr. Liz: University of North Carolina, chapel Hill. Dr. Liz: There's a lot of research on it out of the Dr. Liz: medical school there.
Dr. Liz: So they even took tissue samples of the Dr. Liz: bowel for the hypnosis versus the Dr. Liz: non-hypnosis group and the bowel tissue Dr. Liz: changes, which is amazing. Dr. Liz: Like I you know I don't even understand how Dr. Liz: all that works really, but I know it does Dr. Liz: and so I definitely use that protocol.
Dr. Liz: But at the same time I've had many cases Dr. Liz: where I adapted it to really what the Dr. Liz: client needed and is going through, and for Dr. Liz: reflex as well. Dr. Liz: So it started out strictly for IBS, but I Dr. Liz: think they even did research about adapting Dr. Liz: it for reflex and had incredible success Dr. Liz: with that.
Dr. Liz: Like people who are not eating anything Dr. Liz: like felt like their diet was so limited, Dr. Liz: able to eat chocolate again and have coffee Dr. Liz: and spicy food. Dr. Liz: I remember one client who she emailed me Dr. Liz: later in the week this is after working Dr. Liz: with her for a while, a couple months or so Dr. Liz: and she said I had Thai food. Dr. Liz: I'm so excited, like it's amazing, the Dr. Liz: difference it can make for people.
Dr. Liz: I'm sure you have similar experiences, for Dr. Liz: that. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, so um.
Dr. Navidi: So once so at a certain point in my career, Dr. Navidi: you know I had this specialty and I Dr. Navidi: realized that you know I'm in the DC metro Dr. Navidi: area and there's nobody else on an Dr. Navidi: outpatient basis who could see, um, see Dr. Navidi: kids and adolescents uh, gi with GI issues, Dr. Navidi: and knew how to use hypnosis, like put Dr. Navidi: those three together and there was nobody Dr. Navidi: there.
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, um, and actually, by the way, um, I Dr. Navidi: helped found the, um, the Northern Virginia Dr. Navidi: chapter, which which once I I guess, um, Dr. Navidi: eventually they've kind of broken up, but Dr. Navidi: it was after I stopped having time to Dr. Navidi: really participate. Dr. Liz: Yeah. Dr. Navidi: So so long story short, I eventually Dr. Navidi: started this bigger practice. Dr. Navidi: Gi psychology uh.
Dr. Navidi: And it's goes by the same website, just G I Dr. Navidi: psychologycom, and the whole idea was that Dr. Navidi: there aren't enough people trained to do Dr. Navidi: this kind of gut brain therapy For sure, Dr. Navidi: and so that's what we want to do. Dr. Navidi: So I'm in charge of training, so at this Dr. Navidi: point I've trained maybe 15, 20 people on Dr. Navidi: this stuff. Dr. Navidi: I rely heavily on the Paulson.
Dr. Navidi: I feel like it's a good like training Dr. Navidi: wheels for people when they're getting Dr. Navidi: started, you know, and then, as they get Dr. Navidi: more experience, they can start modifying Dr. Navidi: it and kind of going off script, but it's, Dr. Navidi: it's like a safe place for them to come Dr. Navidi: back to you know when they when they're Dr. Navidi: unsure about something.
Dr. Navidi: And now Paulson has retired but he's Dr. Navidi: actually gonna work with us on a study Dr. Navidi: Awesome that's awesome. Dr. Liz: What's the study gonna be? Dr. Navidi: I think it's just looking at the results of Dr. Navidi: his protocol like out in the wild, so not Dr. Navidi: in a controlled like kind of university Dr. Navidi: medical center situation, but out in the Dr. Navidi: outpatient world where things get more Dr. Navidi: complicated yeah.
Dr. Liz: Awesome, that's great, great. Dr. Liz: Oh, I'll be so interested to hear the Dr. Liz: results of that. Dr. Liz: Eventually, I'm sure it'll get published. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, with his name on it, of course. Dr. Liz: That's a nice look up, huh. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, it is, and he's such a nice guy. Dr. Navidi: He's hilarious. Dr. Navidi: If you ever get a chance to hear him speak, Dr. Navidi: he's the funniest guy and just really knows Dr. Navidi: his stuff when it comes to hypnosis.
Dr. Liz: I did attend a webinar of his and, yeah, he Dr. Liz: was excellent. Dr. Liz: It's always nicer when someone's funny Dr. Liz: during the presentation or relatable Dr. Liz: Totally. Dr. Liz: Yeah, it makes it more tolerable. Dr. Liz: No one wants to sit through a boring Dr. Liz: webinar right when someone's just reading Dr. Liz: slides or something. Dr. Navidi: Oh yeah, those are the worst. Dr. Liz: They are yeah. Dr. Liz: So how did you get connected with him?
Dr. Liz: Did you just reach out? Dr. Navidi: Let's see, I think we were at I think it Dr. Navidi: was DDW, so that's like digestive disease Dr. Navidi: week, it's like the big gastroenterological Dr. Navidi: conference and within that they were having Dr. Navidi: like a little side training for GI Dr. Navidi: psychologists. Dr. Liz: Okay. Dr. Navidi: And he was doing kind of this.
Dr. Navidi: He was part of a panel of like four people Dr. Navidi: who were doing specific GI related hypnosis Dr. Navidi: topics. Dr. Liz: Got it Okay. Dr. Navidi: And so that's how we met him and then we Dr. Navidi: just kind of kept in touch and it was my Dr. Navidi: business partner. Dr. Navidi: She co-founded GI Psychology with me. Dr. Navidi: She was the one that just approached him Dr. Navidi: and started chatting and it turned out he Dr. Navidi: was interested in working together.
Dr. Liz: Great, great. Dr. Liz: So you serve the Washington DC area and Dr. Liz: you're doing in person, I'm assuming. Dr. Navidi: So if you're talking about GI psychology, Dr. Navidi: the bigger practice we're completely Dr. Navidi: telehealth and we're in all 50 states. Dr. Liz: All 50 states be part of PSYPACT or we can Dr. Liz: do that with hypnosis. Dr. Navidi: No, no, no, no. Dr. Navidi: This is. Dr. Navidi: This is again my partner cause.
Dr. Navidi: She does the operation side of the business. Dr. Navidi: She figured out between side pack and then Dr. Navidi: getting individual licenses for states. Dr. Navidi: She managed to cobble together all 50 Dr. Navidi: states so we're able to see patients.
Dr. Liz: Incredible. Dr. Liz: So for the listener side, psypac is a. Dr. Liz: Typically, when you're licensed as a Dr. Liz: psychologist, you're licensed in a Dr. Liz: particular state, meaning like you cannot Dr. Liz: practice in another state. Dr. Liz: Each state has their own licensing. Dr. Liz: It depends on the state. Dr. Liz: Sometimes it's very difficult to get Dr. Liz: licensed in another state that you want to Dr. Liz: practice in. Dr. Liz: It's actually been a historical problem.
Dr. Liz: When people want to move, it restricts them Dr. Liz: often from moving. Dr. Liz: So there was an organization that came up Dr. Liz: and said hey, let's find a solution to this Dr. Liz: and you can join this compact organization Dr. Liz: and it'll let you practice in other states Dr. Liz: without having to be licensed in that state. Dr. Liz: Now hypnosis, I've known, is a loophole Dr. Liz: often in the licensing laws where you can Dr. Liz: often practice in another state.
Dr. Liz: Sometimes you have to register with them, Dr. Liz: do something like that, but it's not Dr. Liz: strictly like I can't do psychotherapy in Dr. Liz: another state that I'm not licensed in, but Dr. Liz: I could do some hypnosis actually. Dr. Liz: So it's sort of a gray area there. Dr. Navidi: And for us, we're always doing our hypnosis Dr. Navidi: within psychotherapy, you know. Dr. Navidi: But you could do hypnosis outside of Dr. Navidi: psychotherapy exactly like you're saying.
Dr. Navidi: That's true. Dr. Liz: Yes, that's a fantastic resource. Dr. Liz: My own daughter, my 18-year-old has some Dr. Liz: significant GI issues and luckily I know Dr. Liz: someone who specializes in that and she Dr. Liz: happens to be in Florida. Dr. Liz: But you are right, I live in a huge area Dr. Liz: South Florida, Miami-Dade, Broward County Dr. Liz: and there's no one here that really does Dr. Liz: that, so that's an incredible resource for Dr. Liz: people.
Dr. Liz: If you're listening to this and either Dr. Liz: yourself or you have a kid who's going Dr. Liz: through it and you don't really know how to Dr. Liz: help them, so that's fantastic. Dr. Liz: Oh, so happy to hear that. Dr. Navidi: And that's the message I you know. Dr. Navidi: That's why I'm doing podcasts and stuff Dr. Navidi: like that.
Dr. Navidi: The message I want to get out there is A if Dr. Navidi: you have these disorders, and if you're Dr. Navidi: talking about just IBS, one in 10 people Dr. Navidi: have it.
Dr. Navidi: If you're talking about the broader what's Dr. Navidi: called disorders of gut brain interaction, Dr. Navidi: or used to be called functional GI Dr. Navidi: disorders, which include like dyspepsia, Dr. Navidi: nausea, vomiting, all kinds of disorders Dr. Navidi: 40% of people at some point in their life Dr. Navidi: are going to have one of those disorders, Dr. Navidi: so they are insanely common. Dr. Liz: I did not know. Dr. Liz: Is that high?
Dr. Liz: That's incredibly high, do you think it's? Dr. Navidi: the same in Italy. Dr. Navidi: When you look at the worldwide data, it Dr. Navidi: holds true. Dr. Navidi: Wow, okay. Dr. Liz: You know how they always say like the Dr. Liz: Italian diet is so much better. Dr. Liz: I'm like is that? Dr. Liz: A function of being in the US or that's Dr. Liz: worldwide data. Dr. Navidi: No, it's worldwide. Dr. Navidi: And here's the thing.
Dr. Navidi: It's not really caused by so much what we Dr. Navidi: eat. Dr. Navidi: It's caused by that interaction between our Dr. Navidi: brain and our gut. Dr. Navidi: Now we might have other problems because of Dr. Navidi: what we eat. Dr. Navidi: You know what I mean. Dr. Navidi: But these aren't necessarily caused by the Dr. Navidi: food that we eat. Dr. Navidi: But they can be exacerbated by the food Dr. Navidi: Once we have one of these disorders of Dr. Navidi: gut-brain interaction.
Dr. Liz: What do you think the underpinnings are? Dr. Navidi: I would say essentially, like the metaphor Dr. Navidi: I use with a lot of patients is, if you had Dr. Navidi: a computer, this would be a software Dr. Navidi: problem versus a hardware problem. Dr. Navidi: So someone with these problems is going to Dr. Navidi: go into the doctor and you probably know it Dr. Navidi: from your daughter.
Dr. Navidi: They're going to get checked out, they're Dr. Navidi: going to be potentially scoped and they're Dr. Navidi: not going to find anything wrong Dr. Navidi: structurally. Dr. Navidi: But the problem is how the central nervous Dr. Navidi: system is interacting with the enteric Dr. Navidi: nervous system. Dr. Navidi: Now, who tends to get these disorders? Dr. Navidi: Often it's patients with anxiety. Dr. Navidi: Now, who tends to get these disorders?
Dr. Navidi: Often it's patients with anxiety, patients Dr. Navidi: who have a history of trauma, have a Dr. Navidi: history or currently have an eating Dr. Navidi: disorder, and then, finally, patients that Dr. Navidi: are on the spectrum. Dr. Navidi: Those are the four groups that get it more Dr. Navidi: often, even though more people than that Dr. Navidi: can get it, of course.
Dr. Navidi: So if we think about that, I suspect that Dr. Navidi: the fundamental underpinning of the problem Dr. Navidi: is when we start to fear our own body's Dr. Navidi: reactions to things. Dr. Navidi: Right, there's a very frequent pattern that Dr. Navidi: you see where somebody gets sick and then, Dr. Navidi: after they're done being sick, they still Dr. Navidi: have symptoms. Dr. Liz: Yes. Dr. Navidi: And so what can often happen? Dr. Navidi: I think they almost call it.
Dr. Navidi: They call it like the PTSD of the gut. Dr. Liz: Oh, I love that. Dr. Liz: So accurate to you. Dr. Liz: I just want to say like, yes, love it. Dr. Liz: Yeah, my daughter is on the spectrum and I Dr. Liz: I know there's overlap between GI and she Dr. Liz: was diagnosed with gastritis so they did Dr. Liz: scope her and actually find something. Dr. Liz: But it's the PTSD around food, around like Dr. Liz: is that going to make me sick?
Dr. Liz: Like I don't know if I can eat that, Like Dr. Liz: yeah, and it can evolve into an eating Dr. Liz: disorder if it's not really addressed Yep. Dr. Navidi: ARFID. Dr. Navidi: If you're familiar with ARFID, it's Dr. Navidi: avoidant, restrictive food intake disorder. Dr. Navidi: For people listening. Dr. Liz: Yes, and these are not people who are Dr. Liz: trying to lose weight by restricting their Dr. Liz: diet. Dr. Liz: They are scared.
Dr. Liz: They are scared to eat something because it Dr. Liz: may land them in the bathroom or make them Dr. Liz: sick, nauseous, vomiting, that type of Dr. Liz: thing. Dr. Liz: So they start to restrict what they can eat Dr. Liz: and develop this very personal list of safe, Dr. Liz: quote unquote foods. Dr. Liz: But then what happens is it evolves into Dr. Liz: like nutritional deficiencies if it's not Dr. Liz: really handled and it's a hard one, you Dr. Liz: know.
Dr. Liz: I ordered the book, the CBTI for ARFID. Dr. Liz: Yeah, and basically it says like one, it's Dr. Liz: pretty much the only one on the market Dr. Liz: that's even written. Dr. Liz: Two, there's not a whole lot of research on Dr. Liz: it. Dr. Liz: And three, they're like well, we're Dr. Liz: shooting in the dark here, you know, like Dr. Liz: really. Dr. Navidi: And frequently there's. Dr. Navidi: From what we've seen, there's two major Dr. Navidi: paths to ARFID.
Dr. Navidi: Right, there's. Dr. Navidi: One is the sensory path. Dr. Navidi: Yes, and you see this with a lot of Dr. Navidi: patients on the spectrum. Dr. Navidi: They're very sensitive to textures and Dr. Navidi: tastes and you know, and they go, they can Dr. Navidi: develop ARFID through that route. Dr. Navidi: Then the other route is the fear-based Dr. Navidi: route.
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, right, they're afraid that it's going Dr. Navidi: to cause some reaction in their gut, either Dr. Navidi: pain or nausea or vomiting. Dr. Navidi: Sometimes it's even combined with Dr. Navidi: emetophobia, where people have an intense Dr. Navidi: fear of vomiting. Dr. Navidi: Oh yeah, so hard they develop similar Dr. Navidi: problems. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, yeah, they can develop similar Dr. Navidi: problems. Dr. Liz: Yeah, yeah, and I think with IBS as well.
Dr. Liz: People start to try to develop like what Dr. Liz: can I eat, what can I not eat? Dr. Navidi: That type of thing. Dr. Liz: Yes, yeah. Dr. Navidi: And the thing is they develop all these Dr. Navidi: like safe or unsafe foods, but most of the Dr. Navidi: time it's actually not the food, because Dr. Navidi: what will happen is, you know, and you know Dr. Navidi: this as a psychologist they're just having Dr. Navidi: a bad day and they eat some pizza. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, right, and so they're.
Dr. Navidi: Then they're thinking huh did, did my Dr. Navidi: stomach pain? Dr. Navidi: Was that caused by the pizza? Dr. Navidi: So then next time they have pizza, they go Dr. Navidi: into it with with a little bit of fear. Dr. Navidi: Yes, and guess what? Dr. Navidi: That fear feeds down the gut-brain axis and Dr. Navidi: causes more symptoms. Dr. Navidi: Yes, and so when they eat that pizza, Dr. Navidi: they're getting more symptoms.
Dr. Navidi: And now they're sure that pizza is bad for Dr. Navidi: them. Dr. Navidi: So then every time they eat pizza in the Dr. Navidi: future, they do it with a sense of doom. Dr. Liz: Yes. Dr. Navidi: They know they're going to have a problem Dr. Navidi: and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Dr. Liz: Yes, right, or they stop eating pizza Dr. Liz: completely. Dr. Navidi: Oh well, yeah, I'm not eating the pizza. Dr. Liz: Yeah, it's just not happening.
Dr. Liz: Yes, yeah, and part of the hypnosis Dr. Liz: protocol for them is to help them relax Dr. Liz: around food and have them eat a more varied Dr. Liz: diet and one that's like satisfying to them Dr. Liz: as well, but it does calm down all the Dr. Liz: symptoms. Dr. Liz: So how long do you typically work with Dr. Liz: someone before? Dr. Liz: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Navidi: So I would say that for me personally it Dr. Navidi: tends to be rather fast when we're treating Dr. Navidi: the, the, the GI issue. Dr. Navidi: So if it's IBS or something like that like Dr. Navidi: I've got a patient right now and they're Dr. Navidi: responding well and I'm guessing it's going Dr. Navidi: to probably be around five or six sessions Dr. Navidi: and they can be done with their, their DGBI.
Dr. Navidi: The reason I like this work so much, you Dr. Navidi: know cause sometimes psychologists look at Dr. Navidi: me a little funny when I say that I'm Dr. Navidi: specializing in this.
Dr. Navidi: But what I really like about it is it's not Dr. Navidi: too hard to treat the GI issue, but then Dr. Navidi: you've got so much therapeutic trust and Dr. Navidi: momentum that you can also treat what's Dr. Navidi: often an underlying disorder, which might Dr. Navidi: be anxiety, it might be depression, it Dr. Navidi: might be trauma, but there's such a good Dr. Navidi: relationship there that it's easy to get Dr. Navidi: that treated.
Dr. Navidi: And often they might not have been willing Dr. Navidi: to get that treated before. Dr. Navidi: True, they got that help for the GI problem. Dr. Liz: Yeah, very true, very true. Dr. Liz: I love that, it's a very nice way to put it. Dr. Liz: And are you seeing them on a weekly basis, Dr. Liz: every other week, or is it really Dr. Liz: individual?
Dr. Navidi: I typically will try to see them weekly Dr. Navidi: when they start, but if you know, sometimes Dr. Navidi: people for finances or schedule they need Dr. Navidi: every other week and I think that's fine. Dr. Navidi: I don't like to go less than that, yeah me Dr. Navidi: neither. Dr. Liz: Yeah, I won't actually do it if someone Dr. Liz: wants less than that. Dr. Liz: Yeah. Dr. Navidi: It's hard to get momentum when it's that Dr. Navidi: far apart.
Dr. Navidi: You know three weeks, four weeks, things Dr. Navidi: like that. Dr. Liz: Yeah, yeah, I mean, when someone's been in Dr. Liz: therapy with me and they feel like they're Dr. Liz: well on their way and they want some Dr. Liz: maintenance, then occasionally I'll do that, Dr. Liz: but I will not start that way. Dr. Liz: It's, yeah, there's not enough momentum. Dr. Liz: It's like taking a quarter of an antibiotic Dr. Liz: and expecting it to work. Dr. Navidi: That's a great metaphor.
Dr. Navidi: I like it.
Dr. Liz: Yeah. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, but related to that, when we look at Dr. Navidi: the data from our clinic because we've got Dr. Navidi: 10 therapists now trained up I'd say the Dr. Navidi: average for something like IBS is around 10 Dr. Navidi: sessions, Okay, Like 10 to 14 sessions, Dr. Navidi: because I think what happens is often Dr. Navidi: there's something else pops up, right Like Dr. Navidi: you're treating the IBS and they're like Dr. Navidi: hey, these panic attacks are really bumming
Dr. Navidi: me out and so you might do a session or two Dr. Navidi: help with that and then go back to the GI Dr. Navidi: Got it. Dr. Liz: Are you recording the sessions for them Dr. Liz: Like do you send them home with a recording Dr. Liz: or yeah. Dr. Navidi: So I would say the the majority of our Dr. Navidi: therapists. Dr. Navidi: They will record um and they'll send them Dr. Navidi: with a recording.
Dr. Navidi: I don't always record um because some of my Dr. Navidi: hypnosis sessions are not well adapted for Dr. Navidi: that Meaning. Dr. Navidi: I like to sometimes do a very interactive Dr. Navidi: hypnosis where I'm talking to them Dr. Navidi: throughout or there's ideomotor signals or Dr. Navidi: something like that. Dr. Navidi: That doesn't really lend itself to being Dr. Navidi: recorded and repeated. Dr. Liz: Correct, yeah, agreed.
Dr. Navidi: But often, like I'll find out, we'll find Dr. Navidi: out something that works for someone and Dr. Navidi: it'll be very interactive, and then the Dr. Navidi: next session I'll do another version of it Dr. Navidi: without any interaction, just doing the Dr. Navidi: thing we know worked. Dr. Navidi: And then we record that and we give it to Dr. Navidi: them. Dr. Liz: Okay, got it. Dr. Liz: So when you're doing the more interactive Dr. Liz: session, what are you exploring?
Dr. Navidi: interactive session. Dr. Navidi: Are you? Dr. Navidi: What are you exploring? Dr. Navidi: Yeah, so sometimes it's just something as Dr. Navidi: simple as you know. Dr. Navidi: Let me know when you notice that cool Dr. Navidi: feeling you know in your stomach, or you Dr. Navidi: know, let me nod your head when you know Dr. Navidi: this happens or that happens. Dr. Navidi: Sometimes it's more. Dr. Navidi: I would consider more advanced techniques, Dr. Navidi: kind of like exploratory.
Dr. Navidi: So we might be, you know, like Dr. Navidi: investigating how the problem started. Dr. Navidi: Looking at internal emotional conflicts, Dr. Navidi: are you familiar with Dabney Ewan's book Dr. Navidi: Idiomotor Signals? Dr. Navidi: Yeah For rapid hypnoanalysis. Dr. Liz: I love that book. Dr. Navidi: Yes, Me too. Dr. Liz: And I actually saw him before he passed Dr. Liz: away. Dr. Liz: I attended a seminar of his yeah. Dr. Navidi: Oh, I would have loved to meet him.
Dr. Liz: Talk about fun. Dr. Liz: I mean, kept you on the edge of your seat Dr. Liz: and this is like a two-day seminar of you Dr. Liz: know. Dr. Liz: We start at nine, we have a lunch break and Dr. Liz: we end at like five or something. Dr. Liz: And I mean, yeah, notebooks full of notes Dr. Liz: from him. Dr. Liz: He's incredible, he was incredible. Dr. Liz: He sadly passed away a couple of years ago, Dr. Liz: but, yeah, his book is fantastic as well.
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, it's so well done and I've read a lot Dr. Navidi: of hypnosis books and it's such an Dr. Navidi: accessible book. Dr. Navidi: He basically gives you a flow chart for how Dr. Navidi: to do this. Dr. Navidi: Really, some can be very complicated, Dr. Navidi: nuanced work and he gives you this great Dr. Navidi: flow chart for how to do it. Dr. Navidi: And I love his acronym I still use the Dr. Navidi: compass C-O-M-P-I-S-S to, like you know, as Dr. Navidi: exploring it.
Dr. Navidi: So for people listening that it's, it's a, Dr. Navidi: it's a. Dr. Navidi: It was originally developed, I think Dr. Navidi: earlier, by another clinician named Cheek. Dr. Navidi: I can't remember his full name, but they Dr. Navidi: called it the seven keys, the seven keys Dr. Navidi: for psychosomatic disorders.
Dr. Navidi: So it's like internal conflict, organ Dr. Navidi: language, motivation, past experience, Dr. Navidi: identity, I think, self-suggestion or Dr. Navidi: suggestion and then self-punishment. Dr. Navidi: I think those are the seven and exploring Dr. Navidi: that. Dr. Navidi: It just blows my mind still the stuff you Dr. Navidi: find when you go in there and look for that Dr. Navidi: stuff.
Dr. Liz: Yes, I usually use guides on my Kindle and Dr. Liz: so I have his seven questions and sometimes, Dr. Liz: when I get stuck with a client, I will go Dr. Liz: to his seven questions to ask. Dr. Liz: That are asking like was this suggested by Dr. Liz: someone in authority? Dr. Liz: Is this related to something in your past.
Dr. Liz: Like you know, it is very well laid out, Dr. Liz: but you're right, it is more of an advanced Dr. Liz: technique of um in someone who's willing to Dr. Liz: do that. Dr. Liz: Work with you too. Dr. Liz: Not everyone's really willing to do that. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, and I usually my philosophies. Dr. Navidi: I like to start at the more surface level, Dr. Navidi: like if we can solve this problem directly Dr. Navidi: with just direct suggestion.
Dr. Navidi: Great, you know, you're in're, in, you're Dr. Navidi: out, you're done you know, it's for the Dr. Navidi: people that don't tend to respond to those Dr. Navidi: direct suggestions in the way that they Dr. Navidi: would like that I often will then switch Dr. Navidi: over to the more exploratory methods yeah, Dr. Navidi: same here. Dr. Liz: I'm always like look, if we can get this, Dr. Liz: if you don't need the deeper methods, we Dr. Liz: don't do them.
Dr. Liz: Yeah you know let's, yeah, let's start here, Dr. Liz: and then only if we can get this, if you Dr. Liz: don't need the deeper methods, we don't do Dr. Liz: them. Dr. Liz: You know let's, yeah, let's start here, and Dr. Liz: then only if we need them do we go there. Dr. Liz: Yeah, so when should someone consider Dr. Liz: hypnosis if they have a GI disorder?
Dr. Navidi: So if they've got a GI disorder, you know Dr. Navidi: they're noticing pain or nausea or Dr. Navidi: something, of course, go to your primary Dr. Navidi: care. Dr. Navidi: You know, do the tests and, more likely Dr. Navidi: than not, the test will show that there is Dr. Navidi: not a significant structural component.
Dr. Navidi: And if that's the case, then I would Dr. Navidi: suggest, you know, reaching out to us, you Dr. Navidi: know, or reaching out to someone in your Dr. Navidi: area that's trained in hypnosis and trained Dr. Navidi: in working with GI, cause not every, not Dr. Navidi: every, person who's trained in hypnosis Dr. Navidi: knows how to work with IBS or functional Dr. Navidi: dyspepsia. Dr. Liz: No, it's a small percentage actually. Dr. Liz: Who knows how to do that?
Dr. Liz: Who has the both? Dr. Navidi: Yes, exactly, exactly, and that's the thing. Dr. Navidi: That's why we, you know, created, you know, Dr. Navidi: gi psychology. Dr. Navidi: It's just it's so rare Like literally GI Dr. Navidi: psychology, it's just it's so rare Like Dr. Navidi: literally, I think, the latest, numbers Dr. Navidi: were there are 500 trained gut brain Dr. Navidi: therapists in the world, that's probably Dr. Navidi: more than that.
Dr. Navidi: Yeah, you know, maybe you could double that Dr. Navidi: and be generous. Dr. Navidi: Say there's a thousand in the world but Dr. Navidi: still that's not a lot. Dr. Navidi: That's not a lot. Dr. Navidi: That's ridiculously low compared to how Dr. Navidi: many people have these problems. Dr. Liz: Yeah, absolutely it is. Dr. Liz: So do you ever suggest someone try apps Dr. Liz: first, like there's the Nerva app? Dr. Navidi: Yeah. Dr. Liz: You do. Dr. Navidi: Well, it depends.
Dr. Navidi: I think Nerva is good. Dr. Navidi: What they've done is solid. Dr. Navidi: Simone Peters is the one who created their Dr. Navidi: IBS section. Dr. Navidi: She's in Australia and she knows her stuff Dr. Navidi: and they've done studies to show that it Dr. Navidi: helps apt. Dr. Navidi: They have a really poor follow-through rate. Dr. Navidi: People tend to do a few sessions and then Dr. Navidi: basically give up, and there's all kinds of Dr. Navidi: different limitations.
Dr. Navidi: But I think if somebody just wants to give Dr. Navidi: things a try and they want a low cost entry Dr. Navidi: into it, I think something like Nerva is a Dr. Navidi: great way to start. Dr. Liz: Yeah, I think the same thing. Dr. Liz: But the biggest limitation is that there's Dr. Liz: no way an app could customize to you what Dr. Liz: you really need, and so when you see a Dr. Liz: trained hypnotherapist specializes in this Dr. Liz: area, we know how to do that.
Dr. Liz: We know how to adapt to you area. Dr. Navidi: We know how to do that. Dr. Navidi: We know how to adapt to you Absolutely and Dr. Navidi: and it's like it's going to be a while till Dr. Navidi: till. Dr. Navidi: An app, can you know pace it to.
Dr. Navidi: You know, like, take a little longer if you Dr. Navidi: can tell they need to go, you know they Dr. Navidi: need that extra time to kind of sink in or Dr. Navidi: speed it up If you know they're already Dr. Navidi: where they need to be. Dr. Navidi: You know, like, even just the pacing and Dr. Navidi: then using language that that really Dr. Navidi: resonates with them and using metaphors Dr. Navidi: that resonate with them. Dr. Liz: Yes, so true, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Liz: Well, you have given us some great Dr. Liz: information about hypnosis and GI disorders Dr. Liz: and some eating disorders too, arfid, so I Dr. Liz: really appreciate you being here today. Dr. Liz: Can you please tell people again how to Dr. Liz: find your practice and how to get connected Dr. Liz: and get some help that they want? Dr. Navidi: Sure thing. Dr. Navidi: So it's just gipsychologycom, really simple. Dr. Navidi: It's gipsychologycom, really simple.
Dr. Navidi: We've got a free 15-minute consult with a Dr. Navidi: clinically trained person who will answer Dr. Navidi: people's questions and help them figure out Dr. Navidi: if this is the right thing for them. Dr. Navidi: We're available in all 50 states. Dr. Navidi: Oh, I didn't mention this is pretty cool. Dr. Navidi: We partner with all these organizations.
Dr. Navidi: So so we're partnered with Crohn's and Dr. Navidi: colitis foundation and the American college Dr. Navidi: of gastroenterology you know Georgetown in Dr. Navidi: in my area. Dr. Navidi: Medstar scripts on the web, so it's like Dr. Navidi: probably about 20 different organizations. Dr. Navidi: The Mayo clinic we're partnered with and Dr. Navidi: we're their kind of GI psychology support Dr. Navidi: Fantastic. Dr. Liz: What about outside of the US? Dr. Liz: Do you take?
Dr. Navidi: international clients we haven't quite Dr. Navidi: figured out. Dr. Navidi: We've had a few patients over the years Dr. Navidi: that were outside the United States, but we Dr. Navidi: haven't explored it as a general practice. Dr. Navidi: We haven't gone out and made ourselves Dr. Navidi: available, but as far as I can tell, it Dr. Navidi: seems to be a very similar problem outside Dr. Navidi: of the United States too.
Dr. Navidi: There just aren't a lot of trained people Dr. Navidi: out there who understand how to do this Dr. Navidi: work. Dr. Liz: Okay, got it All right. Dr. Liz: Just asking because I know people out there Dr. Liz: who understand how to do this work. Dr. Liz: Okay, got it All right.
Dr. Liz: Just asking Cause I know people all over Dr. Liz: the world listen to the podcast, so I want Dr. Liz: them to be able to have the resource, and Dr. Liz: I've worked with clients all over the world Dr. Liz: as well. Dr. Liz: I I will say that, like Asia and Australia Dr. Liz: is really difficult for me because of the Dr. Liz: time difference. Dr. Liz: Yes, you get into like 12, 13 hour time Dr. Liz: differences.
Dr. Liz: But Europe, South America yeah, that's all Dr. Liz: pretty easy yeah. Dr. Navidi: Yeah. Dr. Liz: But thank you so much for being here and Dr. Liz: sharing your wisdom. Dr. Navidi: Oh, my pleasure it was. Dr. Navidi: It was a real pleasure talking with you and Dr. Navidi: it sounds like we have a lot of very Dr. Navidi: similar interests in terms of hypnosis and Dr. Navidi: probably know a lot of the same people.
Dr. Navidi: I look forward to maybe meeting you in Dr. Navidi: person at one of the ASH conferences once Dr. Navidi: they start getting back to in person. Dr. Liz: Yeah, hopefully, hopefully we'll meet up Dr. Liz: sometime. Dr. Navidi: Yeah, that would be great. Dr. Navidi: Well, it was a pleasure talking with you, Dr. Navidi: thank you. Dr. Liz: I hope you truly enjoyed today's episode.
Dr. Liz: Remember that you can get free hypnosis Dr. Liz: downloads over at my website, Dr. Liz: drlizhypnosiscom D-R-L-I-Z-hypnosiscom. Dr. Liz: I work all over the world doing hypnosis, Dr. Liz: so if you're interested in working with me, Dr. Liz: please schedule a free consultation over at Dr. Liz: my website and we'll see what your goals Dr. Liz: are and if I can be of service to you in Dr. Liz: helping you reach them.
Dr. Liz: Finally, if you liked today's episode, Dr. Liz: please subscribe to the podcast or tell a Dr. Liz: friend. Dr. Liz: That way, more and more people learn about Dr. Liz: the power of hypnosis. Dr. Liz: All right, everyone, have a wonderful week, Dr. Liz: peace. Dr. Liz: This podcast is not mental health treatment, Dr. Liz: nor should it replace mental health Dr. Liz: treatment. Dr. Liz: If you need therapy or hypnotherapy, please Dr. Liz: seek treatment from a trained professional.