How to Build Products People Actually Love: The Secrets Behind Lasting Tech

What if the next trillion dollar company isn't chasing trends, but actually solving age old human needs just reimagined with ai? So today we're joined by OJ and two powerhouse builders and investors and tech veterans. They came from companies like Twitter, Typeform, Calendly, T-Mobile, and they just teamed up to release their book called Building Rocket Ships.

And in this conversation we're gonna unpack a lot from that book and also just in general the trends right now and what it really takes to build a product that's going to last in this whole AI gold rush time. Let's dive into it. Oji, Ezinnee to have that.

You're, you're both here and this is a, it's honestly just gonna make it even better. So you're a power duo, but there you're more than that too. I mean, you guys have individually, I mean, I can't even list all the background, so like. Everyone do your independent research, but let's talk about it. You, you both come from incredible backgrounds with large companies. Companies like Twitter type form, uh, T-Mobile, and I'm kind of blending both of your sides here.

Um, Procore Construction, I mean there's, 'cause I know there's construction folks listening, there's tech people listening. Um, the fact is you guys have great perspective of businesses who have done amazing things, have exited, scaled people. And like leading on the tech. And I think that's kind of fast, that's really fascinating in this world of AI and all the, the tools that everybody's experiencing in this, this next wave that's happening.

So I guess I'll start with thanking you and how are you guys doing? How are you, how are you feeling with, uh, where we're at in the world? So everything's so fast, but like, how are you feeling about it? Are you, are you like jazzed up for it? Are are opportunities? mean, I'm, I'm excited. I think that there is so much change happening. Breck neck, neck speed. Um, it is dizzying, but, uh, I love rollercoasters anyway, so this just works for me.

Um, I, I, I feel lucky that I've been in the tech space for quite a while, so I'm able to look behind and see, think about what happened in the past and try and get some learnings from that. So. Um, really excited about it actually. up? yeah. No, no, I, I feel the same way. This is, uh, it feels like a gold rush time

Mm-hmm. and it is, but, and I think there are negative and positive versions of that gold rush, but I think the thing that you are. Listeners should understand is that this is a time of great opportunity. Like when Bill Gates, uh, discovered computing in the 75 to 80, 83 when I started, Microsoft was a time of great opportunity. Silicon chips had just come out and the world was gonna change, and he saw it. A lot of people did not.

Okay. And, and when the internet, which Bill Gate did not Shepherd, came out. I like to say the internet dropped. When the internet dropped. There's a time of great opportunity and we've made trillions, you know, like catch a trillion bucks from that. Right? And the earlier thing, and so this is the same time. And so patient builders, ingenious builders. Um, are going to change the world. I wanna talk about money 'cause they will make money and money, just to be clear.

But we're very excited about that big level of thinking, but also just the details. Like what is the life of a startup guy? What is the life of a startup market? Or what is the life of an investor? All those things are gonna change. And you know, these are some of the things that we've been thinking about and we've been living. Yeah, you've definitely lived it through your own individual journeys.

course, I'm sure you share a lot of, you know, the inside scoop and, and obviously you wrote a book about it as well, so, we'll, we'll talk about that and, but I mean, you said it's, it's great opportunity. I mean, I just came back, I, I told you I came back from Cisco Live where that's all their keynotes. Were, we're interviewing some of the top execs. And I'm like, everybody is just has the same mindset. Like they're an AI forward company.

And but you said patient builders because, uh, and I'm curious, what do you mean by by that? Og. there's a lot of our industry that is. Trend focused, right? Someone builds a Calendly. You don't, you want to know how many people who are building a Calendly beater that's come to me to consult with them. You know what I mean? So people chase trends. Originality isn't, uh, like a premium in industry, actually even investing.

You know, like you see something that works and you want to, you know, invest in next Facebook and before you know it, you know, people start chasing, uh, failed social media startups. My point is that people who tap into, uh, perennial needs and workflows,

like there's some, there's an undercurrent of value that is the same from generation to generation, even when the technology level changes. like, for example, on the consumer side, we know that dating is always gonna make money if you're ingenious at it, right? Everything from, uh, plenty of fish to, uh, Tinder, right? We know that, uh, gamble, I don't wanna say this, but there are all kinds of things, sports and so on that is that, that are always good. But the technology changes and the.

Which it, it comes out changes, uh, but also in B2B, people are always gonna wanna sell stuff. People are always going to marketing. People are always gonna want to crunch the numbers and do data analysis. But the things that we built 10 years ago, 15 are not gonna cut it anymore. And they're gonna be different because we just got a brand new tool that's gonna make all the things easier. So patient builders are people who try to find sharp problems that are deep. We've had for a very long time.

Right. You know, Microsoft Office is writing. 50,000 years, uh, math and accounting, 50,000 years, problem. You know what I mean? Like email. Email is, communication is smoke signals. And so like, patient builders are people who plumb deep needs and then find ways to express them in new ways that match the next level of technology and convenience. That's what I mean. That's a great way to put it. That it's, yeah, they're, they're deep needs expressed in, in, in different ways.

It's, it's sharp problems. Like you said, ones that will always be around, but they're, they're almost like shape shifting in The yes, technology shifts around the need. Sure. What? What do you think doesn't shift in all of this? let, let's put it this way, I, there's something, a thesis we have is a great replacement. Like everything you're using today will not be the same in 10 years. Like they have been the same for 10 years roughly. They will not be the same. They will all be replaced.

The only question is, are the people who make them today going to be the ones who make the new thing, or is it gonna be a new startup? And the thing that doesn't change is like. Sorry, I don't want to get existential. ISN was, It's okay. I that kind of stuff No. She was accuse me of not being practical, but the thing, you It's know, we we're all mammals, you know what I mean? Like we need to socialize.

We, there's some things that are, you know, we thought Twitter would change the world, but it turned out that people just found their tribe

on Twitter and just stuck with it. And instead of having conversations instead of in a pub, they just have on Twitter. So that's what I mean, like some things have changed because they're rooted in human nature. So some things, no, I'll just add to that. Um, some of the things that don't change, like Oji said, the need is the need. It's a perennial need, it's an underlying need, whether it's B2C or individual or B2B. The second I would say is return on investment. Right?

The people who are paying attention to their, how their investment is being used and shaped. Are the ones who will win. And I say this because, um, we find people who build like, uh, you know, everything is fast, everything is happening, uh, quickly, and some people rush. And in that rushing, they're not thinking about the math in the end. And there're always going to be analogies to currency, right? Back in the day, in the social media world, it was. Followers, right?

Followership, then influencers and the, you know, that became currency in some way. Building a social network became more important. Eyeballs became more important. So there is always an an an, an analogy. To currency in some way. So I think that it just being able to pay attention to perennial need, really paying attention to a return on capital, that always will matter, period. Because you have to pay for the future. And then what is your analogy for currency?

What is your analogy for profitability? What is your analogy for growth? Because there always is one in, in, in this day and time. So I haven't figured out what it is in an AI world, but with every new technology there often is something. So just paying attention to what that analogy could be. technology companies are, we build stuff that make people either useful or happy, right? So that doesn't change like founders and product managers and product marketers and investors.

It's really about build something. And I love the way like. Some of these really, like early stage people talk about it. You build something that people love that is really useful, that solves a sharp problem for them. That's one dimension. And the second one is you build a a, um, business model that makes you money from that, right? Um, software works really well because the marginal cost of production is zero. And so if you hit a certain number of customers, you make money. And a lot of it.

So you make them happy, you solve a real thing, and then you design a business model that's really efficient and I think those, those won't change. Awesome answers by the way. how started with existential, which I love, way into this profound shift practical practicality. Let's make it a little bit more practical 'cause you're all about like.

Well, how does someone like a startup, I mean, and let's be honest, like even if someone hasn't run a startup before and they're listening, watching, they have some existing business, they probably see maybe a sharp problem that they wanna solve in their vertical. So maybe they do the vibe, coding, coding thing, or maybe they just hire some, yeah. Or, or maybe they're just trying to figure out.

What the, um, what the product market fit is, you know, just like, but how to test it at it at the smallest possible level. Like how do you get someone, guess how do you navigate this and how would you advise someone in that, in that phase? the way this works is our industry has actually pissed away a lot of money. Based on the passions of founders. Like founders wake up one morning and they obsessed with one thing that they think should change in the world.

The thing that we wish, because we spent so much, many hours talking to them, and actually I've been a founder, so, and I've made this mistake, so I've lived it. The thing you should check to see is, is this a sharp problem to anybody else? Is it the sharper around to 10 people, to 20 people, to a million people? 'cause that's what really matters. It's not about. An expression of your need and your ingenuity that you're bringing to market. That's, that's sort of the old way.

It's really customer satisfaction. We should be thinking like, uh, you know, like Procter and Gamble, they

don't make a Swiffer until they know that a million people are gonna buy a Swiffer, if that makes sense. So it's like, think about the problems of other people, not so much your problem. And then think about where you have insight. Uh, so that you can inject passion and stick to iveness when you're building that startup. When, uh, Jeff Bezos built Amazon, he built a shopping mart, right? He built a shopping mar. I don't even know if he was passionate about it.

I think he was passionate, not just about building shopping mart, but building something that was more accessible to people than just getting outta there can driving somewhere else, versus the problem itself is like, look, this has to transform. I'm the transform guy of this market. And so I think you start out by really. Figuring out, is this a problem that peop a lot of people feel deeply. And then the second thing is you ask yourself, what would a transformation of that look like?

And then you build a simple, lovable, but complete version of that and put it in front of customers. Sometimes that will take you three months. If it's a very common problem, it might take you two years because the level of, you know, when they say MVP, minimum viable, minimum for a. A, a big need is very high because all, there's a lot of products in the market, and so you some, like Figma famously built for two years because the, the, the viable was super high 'cause of Adobe, right?

And so viable took a long time. So you have to figure out what that is. Um, the simplest, most, most cogent. Attention grabbing version of something you can put out. And it is a variable time. We want to keep it as short as possible, but it's not always possible to make it in two weeks or whatever. Yeah. And that's where I think these vibe coders and all that, or you know, like, because everybody has access to cursor now, not to Yeah. like, yeah.

I actually think this is an amazing time, um, for that founder you're referring to who is trying to figure out, okay, I, I found a, a, a, a sharp problem. How do I move on? Because I remember the days I ran, um, I ran. Innovation or whatever it is, startup inside a company. Right? And the biggest thing was the time it took to create a prototype, right?

So right now, I think the biggest challenge most founders will find after they've done everything like you says, is find the sharp problem, really think through is how do you get access to people so that you can actually test. That is actually the bigger problem now because prototyping should be easy. Wizard or vase is all the things you can literally use, cursor, lovable, all those things to build something that is workable. So it's actually a really, really interesting time.

So it's one of those get off your but and just do it. But the hardest part I remember was, you know, having to log into Craigslist and incentivize people to show up and use and use my product so that, you know, to test whether it works or it doesn't work. But that gaining access so that people could actually play around with that product and give you feedback is, is actually the more challenging piece now than ever before. Before it was actually writing the code, building the software.

No Vico coding is making that much easier. So it's how do you get people and get real feedback because they can actually use your, your work now. So that's an interesting challenge. So for founders listening, you know, it's, it really is more about access to humans and humans who will tell you the truth. that's a good point. Yeah. So are you saying like trusted people, you know, people maybe that you hire, bring on your team as, and also people to give you feedback and tell you No.

No. So, so the thing is, is, is, is, is target, like one of the things that people do is like they'll build something and they'll put it out in the world and they'll get mixed feedback. Well, you should always filter your mixed feedback by your target customers. So one of the things you should do is. Any problem, sharp or not, has a profile, a very narrow profile initially that respond to it. Not everybody, right? So sharp problems. Also attach to narrow target customers.

So find a hundred of them who will experience what you you're doing for free or for Peter. Doesn't matter what it is, it depends on what you're testing, what target them.

And I think what isn't is saying is that the bill part is, um. The built part is super fast. Now, like we, we met a team in Ukraine who after you get off the phone and tell 'em about your problem, they'll crank out the prototype in four hours. that's great. That's okay. In four hours. the we're in. Yeah. yeah, but if you then get the prototype, what do you do with it? Well expose it to customers as soon as possible. Low stakes, beta, whatever you wanna call it, and start to learn, right?

Is that learning process that makes you a viable startup. Uh, it's incredible and I think that should be the shift that people are hearing right now is like, okay, the creation piece is, and you could of course get someone else to do that in.

Like, how would you, would you suggest most people, 'cause it's very simple to get distracted and start going down the, the lovable train or, you know, cursor, but it, like, as a, as a founder and, and obviously the, you guys are investing in these as well with your fund, right? So like how do you advise someone to maybe, uh, work with people to help them out?

'cause I know that's a big, that's a challenge right now to find folks that can think in this way and also you can trust, I know it's kind of loaded, but where do you start there? one of the underestimated parts of building is like just building, like before it was, most founders don't have coding skills, and so you have to find a team, or at least one person, CTO, whatever you call it, a co-founder. Now you can just start building it yourself.

Now, honestly, I'll, I'll tell you my synthesis, based on looking at all these tools is that. It's actually difficult to build something customer ready with lovable and so on and so forth. It's harder than people think because what what happens is you have to be smart enough to think through all the cus the human parts of this, not just throw up some code. Like, does it feel good? Does this journey hang together? And very, people aren't intrigued. Some people go to college for this stuff. Right?

Does it hang together? Um, because you can throw up something simple, but something that people will use for a day, two days and be happy. That's not trivial. Uh, but that's getting easier regard. I know it's how hard it is. It used to be super hard. You used to have two developers you work with for two months, three months, six months.

Now you can put together a prototype yourself, which is actually a very good PRD, the prototype itself to work with professional developers who you get online immediately. And then the thing that happens is you throw it to the first customer. They love it, but it's basic. And they're like, change this and change that. If you're not smart enough to vibe, code the changes and you're stuck. Does that make sense? So start, start by yourself.

But don't think that you can go the distance by yourself unless you're a professional. There are lots of developers who build like single one man SaaS because they can't, they, they're trained. Trained. But if you're not, start by yourself. But very quickly, hire people who can continue, who are pro or semi-pro, because the part of building a software, like we said, is listening to customer feedback and adjusting to it. And a lot of people just like. Can't do that just with vibe coding, right?

Your customer says, do this feature and then you're stuck. Back in the day, you'd write a product requirement document. It's a s like a physical document back then you'd have V one, then you'd have V two, then V three. By the time the product was launching, you were probably at VA hundred and something and you were changing words on a page because you learned more. You, you learn what the requirement was. You learned what was optional.

You learned what the software developer had to do and what need could be done, right? So that's the back in the day. Right now, to Oji's point, it's important that founders just vibe, code, build that prototype, but not get stuck and in love with the software on the page, right? They need to do V two and they can start over again because with V one you, your goal was not necessarily to have it working in the user's hand, was to learn.

Then V two, you learn again, throw away the other code, build it again, V four, learn again. Right. And if you think of it that way, by the time you're building your V 10, you have more information of what to give the coding team you're bringing on. Right. But if you think of the software as. are going to get stuck.

But if you use it more as a learning tool, a prototype, your pro product requirement document that is being re revised each time, and I think you have it, this is, I was just talking to some like, uh, product person I I mentor and this is literally what I was just saying to her. is how you need to think about it. It's there for you to learn with. At Product Mind, we believe that PRDs are going the way of the Dodo, right? A PRD is gonna be an map. You, you, you, because here's how it works.

You write a PRD, you sit in a meeting with a bunch of developers, you try to get them to see your vision, and then they write something and they tell you, is it, is it what you want? it what you want? And then you do another PRD and you have another meeting, blah, blah, blah.

No, you the founder, you write the app, but don't think about this as a final app. It is an avatar of your final lab. It embodies your vision. You hand it off. The developer doesn't need to read a document. They can see it, they can read the code, and then you can keep revising until you get an application that customers love. And they'll know how to make it secure. They'll know how to make it scalable.

They'll know where the dead ends are, and that is where they come in to actually finess it and make it beautiful. But at least you've given them that avatar. So think of that. Just run with it and just make your versions to learn. Put it in your customer's hands and just have them learn and it's okay to trash it.

Take your learnings, take that, put it into the new prompt, right? And start over. There's nothing there. You didn't write that, those lines of code. So don't be precious about it. Well, we're working on a project now where we are on V 20 of the app building, Yeah. And that's all, that's all through, uh, no code, you know, all all this stuff that the Yeah, we're, we're using, we use a mix of things like CEL and so on,

but at, at fowling, uh, we a studio. So we invest, but we also build, if that makes have, yeah, a few people building little things that to test and try, so yeah. I love it. I mean, would you suggest most people get familiar with these kind of apps just to see what's possible? Like have you hundred percent. Like you should be. If you're a builder, you should be living in these apps. They should be your best friend. Cool. And you mentioned lovable cursor.

Do you have a, all these So Vexcel, lovable cursor. There also de design tools. Um, on that side, there are website creation tools for the marketing applications that whatever is speeding up, development by 10 x you should be using. I love it. I think your, your analogy to, uh, creating an avatar, it's just like a customer avatar. there's psychographics, demographics, all these different qualities that thing. Um, and it's just a snapshot of that, that person.

But like, that might even change with more data and input

hundred percent. A hundred percent. Everything is the, the, you know, the, the, the prototype, the vibe coated thing is a representation of an early, that's how you go from a garden shack to the, the Empire State Building. Well, you remember that Not everyone matters initially. Only the people you identify who actually need experiencing this problem, not the entire world. Um, those are the people that matter and target them with that thing. I actually wanna underscore this.

Um, this is something I learned working with Techstars and all the founders. Um, there, um, it's really important that people listening know that. When you do put your product, Oji, you said this earlier, but I need to underscore. When you put your product out there, you will get feedback, right? If you get 10 people, but really pay attention and give weight to who we, what we call the ideal customer profile. Like you really need to understand who is this thing for and give weight to that.

So even if you've heard from 10 people, four may be the only ones that actually truly matter because that's who you are targeting first. You want them to be your early adopters, you're shaping the product around them. So that's something I noticed that, um, folks that I talk to often haven't learned and is worth underscoring.

That's a very good underscore. I think you're gonna save a lot of people a lot of time, I hope. And money, you know, and, and, and like you said, it's a gold rush right now, but it's for the patient builders. I know it's for the focused as well. Like I've heard a lot of people say that like. If you just focus in on whatever that sharp problem is that you're trying to solve.

Obviously with feedback, just remember like we're in a noisy world that moves super fast and we think that social media is distracting. I mean, just getting into cursor lovable, then you're gonna like, you never know, and then think of, oh, what's the other new tool I should try? It's like, hold Hundred percent. I so squirrel. Yeah, yeah. when MCPS came out and everyone was like, oh, you know, everyone is going and yeah, yeah, every, I would now ignore rest APIs and do MCPS forever.

Mm. No. Yeah, not necessarily. and if you know what that means, y'all go listen, you know, listen to some YouTube videos or someone. But either way, well, what, I kinda wanna wrap it up on this, but tell, talk to me about a product system and how you guys approach that because. Maybe, maybe you nail it on a, on the first version or, or single feature, but how do you keep that going and how do you create a system out of it that's sustainable?

let, let me, let me offer like a high level definition. Oji is really good at like, like giving good summaries and succinct soundbites, so I'll let him end with it. But first off, a, a product system is actually refers to the things that are happening within your organization, right? The different systems that actually interoperate that are present, whether or not you're paying attention to them. That lead to the products you build.

And when we talk about a product system, we're actually talking about three core things no matter what in any company, even a, a little startup. There's a way in which your people interact with each other, right? There's a way in which, so we call that the system of people, and there's also a way in which you are finding strategic direction, how you're making decisions, how you're prioritizing, and that we call holistically a strategy or way finding, right?

What decisions matter there, but what's most important. That's what we call strategy. There's a system of that. Then there's also a system of execution. Who does what? How do they do it? How does it ladder up into What tools, what What tools are we using? Where do we reference our code? How do, is it PRDs versus uh, prototypes? How do they work together? And that's what we call a system execution.

That is what a product system is really about, whether or not you have sat down and thought about it that way. They exist. So when we, when we name a products operating system, we are actually asking you to be intentional about how those three things interact with each other how they, how, how those three things interact with each other and how they lead to repeatability and scale over time. So that's really what it really is about.

Oji, you wanna layer in and bring it No, think I you, think you nailed it. There are three, four. Think let's talk about, then, let's use physics as a metaphor. There are three major forces acting on a startup or any technological company, right? People, um, how you find direction and how you execute.

Whether or not you realize that those forces are acting on your startup, they're acting on your company. Even if Google right, there's a reason people fret about the direction of Google, they didn't miss something. That it's the same thing. And what we try to teach people is to make those things not, uh, to make them more intentional. And we teach people how to interact for, well, those three things.

They the, like how they can do ballet together to make sure that you have an innovation engine that is humming all the time. If you have one or two of those things or none of those things, you'll eventually stutter. Right. I at Microsoft when we were stuttering during Obama years, and I saw this happen, um. App builder, startup, and it's the same principle. And in the book we talk a lot about how to optimize the interaction between those three, right? So that you are not a one hit wonder.

You can innovate all the time. 'cause when you do it, your organization actually produces new ideas constantly. because Yeah. We see, it's intentional. we, we, if you think about people, right? You see a founder and employee tension because there isn't this clarity on let's move to the decision making piece, like what is most important. So you, so sometimes you'll see that tension, but that tension happens not necessarily because they're individuals and butting heads.

It's because there probably hasn't been an intentional conversation of their way finding. What is the most important thing? What are we prioritizing? So that is where the intersection of strategy and um, people. Right. That's that interaction, having a, a very clear conversation of are we fighting for our lives? Is, I mean, is money the most important thing or is long-term strategy important? Then without that being said and discussed and like on the table, then you see this tension occurring.

Right? So you just, when we watch our different companies that we invest in or advise, we see these forces at play and being able to design them with core intention, like, okay. Who are the people who are decision makers, who are the people who take from, um, the decision makers and execute? Having clarity there, then figuring out what is the most important thing we're doing Is, is long term strategy more important than short term? What is our mix of investments?

Having clarity there and then also looking at what are the tools we use? Where can I find these decisions that have been made? Right? Um, so all those things are important and you need to be working on them and figuring out how they, they, they, they, they, they, they work, they interact. Sorry. We've said the same thing a few times, but we're trying to, I was trying to give you an example.

You're driving it home and it's, it's necessary because this is, again, it's being intentional in the early phases. Right. And not just letting it happen at, at whatever whim it's gonna happen. people think that effort and having fun produces good outcomes. But I think what we want people to understand is that there's a hidden rhythm to this thing that they gotta pay attention to regardless of your stage. Right. Yeah. It's always happening.

The people there the way find your strategy the execution, how, how get done. Like, and they, they evolve, right? So always that Oh yeah. We, we, one of, in the book we talk a lot of, we actually reference stages a lot where, like, when you're a startup, here's the forces acting on you. When you are mid here's the forces acting on you and how they're different. And when you're bigger, here are the forces and how they act on you at that stage. So we are actually very, uh, descriptive about it.

Yeah. No, it's, it's great. So the book, we've mentioned the, the book by but it's called Building Rocket Ships. Uh, Amazon or, or actually where you, you guys tell, tell me where, where can they find building rocket ships? Right. So we wrote the book because we want the knowledge about how to build technology companies, which is. Somehow still stuck in Silicon Valley and in Seattle and a a few cities Yeah. Yeah. be spread around the world.

We want, we want better products in the world, uh, and happier customers and rich founders. And so we building, rocket Building Rocketships. You can find it on Amazon. And every edition, uh, there is, I think we're gonna work on the audio version of that. And you on, on Shopify, you can see the same additions, but there's an additional bonus on Shopify. You have the Pro Edition. The Pro Edition is a product in and of itself. It is the book in digital form.

You can also, you, you get the book, you get a digital form of the book, and you get twice the book in practical templates you can share with your team to turn it into, you know, acceleration for your career. And so, Ezinne worked really hard on that version and, uh, I'm so proud of him. I love it. Yeah, so just to make it easy, we are@productmind.co, product mind.co. And if you do slash book, or if you land on that page, you'll see something that says, get our book.

That's the fastest way to get the Pro edition, which is the codo edition, which is interactive. I'm always looking at it and people are always sending feedback or questions and we'll update or, so it's a really interactive product as well. So if that's your, if that's your jam, then definitely go to product mind.co also join the Product Mind community. We are curating a bunch of like builders and so that can talk to and uh, on, on Slack.

So the Product Mind community is also available for people to join just to talk about this stuff. That's super helpful. I, I want more people with communities. 'cause again, we're mammals, right? Like we, we gotta keep inter that's not changing. We need to communicate. I talk about that all the See, see you. You're getting it. There needs under, always Well, this is why, like the, the clonings to, or the digital twin, it's all just furthering communication and connection. That's how I see it.

It's connection scale. So like. Yeah. Connection skill. I that's what fires me up. So I think we all have to take that into this new reality of AI being everywhere and, you know, who knows what the world looks like in two years, you hard but, okay.

This is fascinating. I'm happy that we, um, so go get building rocket ships. Yeah. Go to, we will link it all in the show notes, so product mind.co, um, doing all the things Substack as well. Ezinne, Oji, It is been awesome. Thank you so much for your time. It was an honor. Get you both. It was thank you. Thank you. Joe. We, we had so hanging out with you. You're very for having us. Thanks for having us. Yeah.