The £100m Brand Man: 17 Unknown Ways To ACTUALLY Secure a HUGE Exit + “the EXIT world has COMPLETELY

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:00:02 00:00:00:02 - 00:03:07:23 00:03:07:23 - 00:03:10:20 00:03:10:20 - 00:03:16:09 Dan I went to that Houlihan Loki event in the Park Lane. 00:03:16:10 - 00:03:31:11 Dan I got invited through Perry, and I. If I'm being honest, I thought it was like a tiki bar in Clapham, like the whole land, like. And I said that was something that you can't you can't say that you're actually not that close. And, and I was like this, I was like this sort of this whole new world is on the exit. 00:03:31:12 - 00:03:49:06 Dan Eldorado is that makes it like where everyone else is. This podcast is working so hard to get to this exit or at some point some may not say they're not. But at some point there, there's this hope to get to an exit. And, yeah, I was walking around this swanky hotel and it just felt like there's this whole new world. 00:03:49:06 - 00:04:14:08 Dan And I've spoken to people who, you know, like, people are chameleon. They're like, how do we actually get there, you know? Yeah. And one of the things I've kind of learned from being there and speaking to people there is these getting these deals done is incredibly hard. Yeah. And I'd love to sort of for you to parachute is in to one of the exit deals. 00:04:14:08 - 00:04:28:02 Dan You eventually got over the line, but where it was all kind of hanging by a thread and it was up and down, and you were kind of, yeah. What were the thoughts? What was going wrong and what were the thoughts in your head at night when you were trying to go to sleep? Yeah, yeah. 00:04:28:04 - 00:04:59:01 Giles Brook Gotcha. Probably best examples. Bear. Right? That's probably the best one, actually. We use Helen Haughey advised us on that transaction. Kind of where we start on this one. So I think, I think there's a number of things I'd say, which is, I mean, look, getting to an exit is very, very difficult. If I just take a step back, actually, I think my general advice to most startup drug founders is particularly in the early days, people seem to start thinking and worrying and get distracted by exit far too early. 00:04:59:03 - 00:05:23:12 Giles Brook And that's just one of those things. If you concentrate on building the brand, the business and the financials associated with the business wrong. Just say an exit take care of itself. But the probability of getting success, that exit will be strong if you focus on building the business. Now of course, as part building the business, you need to also understand what constitutes and what represents you, giving you the best chance to get a successful exit. 00:05:23:14 - 00:05:25:24 Giles Brook So that's definitely that's the first thing I say. 00:05:25:24 - 00:05:29:09 Dan But just quickly that those principles are so brand. 00:05:29:11 - 00:05:29:20 Giles Brook Yeah. 00:05:29:20 - 00:05:31:03 Dan So that financial that. 00:05:31:05 - 00:05:48:24 Giles Brook Yeah. So we could have a long run on this today. But let's see let's go through it because I think it's really important. Yeah. You understand. Right. So the world has changed as well. So the first thing I'll say every time is everybody just obsesses about that PR now, which is correct. Right. So everybody wants to look for strong revenue growth. 00:05:49:03 - 00:05:57:04 Giles Brook And you talk about compounded compounded annual growth rates okay guys. And typically as a start up brand you're going to want to take off growth over a three year or five. 00:05:57:04 - 00:06:02:02 Dan So if I'm going to be a three year old yeah. So dumb questions say that right. 00:06:02:02 - 00:06:25:21 Giles Brook So this thing okay gotcha. Which is compounded compounded annual growth. Right. Yep. All that does is that takes your growth rate, your average growth rate over whatever period of time you want to select. So it could be a two year, three year, five year. Yeah three years probably atypical. So it will say that look you know typically you know if you're growing at single single digit over a three year compounded annual growth rate, it's probably not that attractive. 00:06:25:21 - 00:06:53:17 Giles Brook But as a start, anything between kind of late teens, up to a 60% growth rate on a compounded basis excites prospective buyers. So I think the first thing to say on the analyst is obviously the revenue growth. But if you're looking at me, particularly when I invest in businesses today, the number one metric I will look at on every single prospective, you know, kind of investment document, which they call again, technology information memorandum, which is what and I am I. 00:06:53:17 - 00:06:54:14 Dan Learned that the other day there. 00:06:54:14 - 00:07:16:03 Giles Brook Will be a glossary around. Yeah I businesses need to be simple. We can get onto that as well. But I sort of thing. But the first thing I look at is gross margin rate. Okay. Because effectively the minute you need to set up your value chain on your business, that you're making a good gross margin. And the reason why that's so important, I just explain what gross margin is. 00:07:16:03 - 00:07:34:13 Giles Brook And again, I'll keep it simple. It's typically and again, the big problem we have as well is that people are manipulating their definitions of gross margin. Right. Because they're trying to hide some costs, which should be in gross margin, but they'll drop it elsewhere in the PR now. Right. Investors have wised up to that. Right? There is only one definition of gross margin on traditional food and drink business. 00:07:34:15 - 00:07:51:02 Giles Brook I'll talk a little bit on on DTC in a second, but effectively gross margin is if you take your invoice price that you sell to your customer at, if you take away promotional discounts, okay, which that gives you a net revenue, which then is not after you take away your promotional costs, that is what you call your turnover. 00:07:51:02 - 00:08:10:13 Giles Brook And that is what you report to HMRC. You take away from there your cost of goods, what it cost you to make it, plus also your logistics, what it costs you to ship it to the customer. Yeah, that then gives you your gross margin. There's also something called trade investments. If example, if you've got a gun random paid Sainsburys 10,000 pounds like on land that needs to come into it. 00:08:10:13 - 00:08:38:01 Giles Brook But that's what you typically call gross margin. The only slight difference is something that's there's another thing, whether you call it cheap gross margin one, two, three or various gross customers, is that when you've got a e-commerce or a DTC business or a business that is a hybrid channel, you also need to look at acquisition costs for consumers that because people can be spending between 10 to 30% of revenue getting consumers in, and that acquisition cost has to come in as well. 00:08:38:01 - 00:08:38:16 Giles Brook So people need to. 00:08:38:19 - 00:08:41:17 Dan Help people, sort of they can they can sort of shove it under the. 00:08:41:17 - 00:09:00:19 Giles Brook Carpet. It'll be dropped, it'll be dropped, it'll be hidden under gross margin in something like marketing or something like that. Right. And I think it's really important that it's a clean definition. But just to give you an idea. And so the number one thing I look at is gross margin, right. Yep. And I kind of have a gold, silver and bronze view that anything that starts with 30% I say is bronze. 00:09:00:21 - 00:09:34:22 Giles Brook I think that starts with the 40% is silver I think gets towards 50%. I call gold, okay. And that's where you get excited because the problem is, is that and again, I, you know, do feel for a lot of a lot of startups because, you know, had a huge amount inflation last few years. The majority of challenger brands have not been able to pass on the same level of inflation through to the retailers as the corporate guys, because either that brand isn't strong enough, to put that inflation through to maintain the consumer demand or else it just not have, you know, the strength of a business to be able to push it through is, 00:09:34:24 - 00:09:53:18 Giles Brook you know, as much as some of the corporates have, you know, with retailers. So the reason why the gross margin is so important is that if you don't make enough money at gross margin level, you don't have enough to invest in marketing, in people and in your overheads and within overheads. You've got things like your processes and systems and all that. 00:09:53:20 - 00:10:12:08 Giles Brook And the problem is you just continue running out of cash because, you know, if you're turning over 10 million pounds as a business, but you're making a 40% gross margin. Yeah, you've got 4 million then to deploy on the rest of the PNL. But if you're turning over 10 million, but you're only a 20% a gross margin business, you've only got 2 million then to deploy in the rest of the year now. 00:10:12:08 - 00:10:32:13 Giles Brook So you need to be making a strong gross margin business to generate cash for the business. As part of the working, you know, the working capital, cycle, but also to be able to deploy it and invest in that, you know, in the brand, you know, in the business. And then the final thing, just before I kind of come off the panel thing, is that the world is also changed when you're looking at exits. 00:10:32:13 - 00:10:46:10 Giles Brook Okay. So I would say when we sold bear 70% or 80% of prospective buyers, we were talking about a revenue multiple alongside an EBITDA multiple. If you go out and. 00:10:46:11 - 00:10:47:20 Dan Define those quick. Yeah. 00:10:47:20 - 00:10:48:20 Giles Brook Sorry, I. 00:10:48:22 - 00:10:50:05 Dan Don't know I'll be the baby here. 00:10:50:05 - 00:11:06:24 Giles Brook No not yes. All right. So so obviously the revenue multiple hopefully is quite explanatory. So if you're turning over 20 million and somebody wants to is willing to pay you two and a half times revenue, and by the time two and a half times typically people will take the last 12 months, the last 12 months prevailing revenue is what the run rate is. 00:11:07:00 - 00:11:26:09 Giles Brook Okay. So if I if you're doing a 20,000,012 month run rate and somebody offered you two and a half times that, that mean effectively be selling the business for 50 million. Yeah. What's happened though now is that and it's for various reasons, it's about, you know, people wanted to see a proper business. It's also the cost of borrowing and stuff like that. 00:11:26:11 - 00:11:52:01 Giles Brook 90% of prospective buyers will only now value a business on an EBITDA multiple, because they're not prepared to buy or pay a high multiple against revenue for business is just hemorrhaging cash and losing money. They need to bring a business in that they feel can immediately start contributing to that, to the wider group for what they're doing. And it's not surprising because a lot of the businesses that obviously are looking to acquire are listed. 00:11:52:01 - 00:12:08:05 Giles Brook They have shareholders, they have quarterly earnings that they've got to update with, and if they're bringing something in, it's got a very quickly step up and they able to contribute, you know, to the central group. So the big change is now. And one of the thing I'm talking to because you know I've got just under 20 businesses now. 00:12:08:05 - 00:12:24:09 Giles Brook But I'm you know I invest in myself. Right. That's my portfolio. One of the biggest messages I can give everybody is that you really need to start becoming what I call a proper business earlier than you would have done three, five years ago. If you want to get a successful exit, you need to think about how you can become EBITDA positive. 00:12:24:11 - 00:12:57:07 Giles Brook And just to explain EBITDA. Right. So EBITDA is earnings before interest tax amortization, okay. And that's effectively your net profit at the bottom. So once you've taken your gross margin, which we defined earlier, you take your marketing costs off, you take your people costs off, you take your overheads off okay. That's an EBITDA, right. And typically, you know, again, just to give people just a benchmark is that if I do bronze, silver, gold, I'd say bronze is 5% EBITDA and above silver's 10% EBITDA and above gold is 15% EBITDA and above. 00:12:57:09 - 00:13:18:07 Giles Brook But the other thing that's really important that a lot of people don't realize is that, you know, I can tell you now, right now in the market today, the, if I just talk packaged goods, the average exit, most food for challenger brand is between 1.9 to 2.1 times revenue, and the EBITDA multiple is about 12 times okay. 00:13:18:09 - 00:13:32:21 Giles Brook It feels like without going into like an economics lesson here, isn't it? Yeah, but let me just explain why it's important. So let's just take that 2020 million. Yeah. So I mentioned earlier and let's just say we're going to get it this time. I'm going to I'm going to get two times revenue which is about average which would mean the business is worth 40 million. 00:13:32:23 - 00:13:52:12 Giles Brook But let's say that 20 million business year is only making 5%. Okay. So that effectively means that they're making 1 million. If you wanted to get the 40 million, but you're only making 1 million, that means you've got to get 40 times multiple on the EBITDA. Not going to happen. People are going to look at it and go, okay, very exception. 00:13:52:12 - 00:14:13:04 Giles Brook It might do for various reasons, but that's why I'm saying that you've got to almost look at the two, because let's just take the example on that 20 million, and let's say that's two times revenue, which is the 40 million. But EBITDA level, if you're making, you know, 10% EBITDA, that means you need a 20 times multiple. 00:14:13:06 - 00:14:17:05 Giles Brook That becomes more realistic if you've got a really strong and hot and and hot brand. 00:14:17:07 - 00:14:19:24 Dan You said you set out with your portfolio of twins awake now. 00:14:20:01 - 00:14:21:24 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah, I apologize. I know that. 00:14:21:24 - 00:14:22:10 Dan If there's this. 00:14:22:10 - 00:14:23:21 Giles Brook Much worth, people listening back. 00:14:23:22 - 00:14:27:20 Dan And go, we're doing this. Yeah. In this first thing in the morning, maybe this is the afternoon. 00:14:27:22 - 00:14:28:05 Giles Brook You need. 00:14:28:09 - 00:14:30:08 Dan Double math. This is what I always used to fall asleep. 00:14:30:10 - 00:14:31:00 Giles Brook Call today. 00:14:31:03 - 00:14:50:22 Dan Yeah, yeah, yeah. And three of these. No, but it's super, super valuable because as a as even at this Houlihan, like, is all of these, as I say, it's like Excel Eldorado in this kind of opulent, Park Lane hotel, but and you can see that's what the end goal is, but it's. And then I suppose what I want to chat today about is how we reverse engineer what they need to focus on now. 00:14:50:23 - 00:15:11:18 Dan Yeah. And you said, you know, there's 2021 brands in my portfolio. They need to get to EBITDA, EBITDA positive business earlier than they initially thought. We want to sort of fast track that process. What are the three 1 to 3 things that they like? People listening to this can say, right, that it's the world's change now. It's not based on revenue multiples. 00:15:11:22 - 00:15:24:00 Dan Yeah, we'll get a grip. We're going to be in a much more advantageous position if we go off EBITDA. How do you kind of do that or some brands so far down the revenue line that they kind of thought, yeah, I don't need to put it. 00:15:24:02 - 00:15:36:09 Giles Brook I think, I think for for people starting up at an early stages, make sure you set your value chain right in the first thing. So what I mean by that is that, you know, a lot of I see too many brands set up and go, okay, I'm only making 20% today, but I think I can get to 40%. 00:15:36:09 - 00:16:00:23 Giles Brook Typically, margin only goes one way because particularly you're dealing with the supermarkets. They want more. And as you grow you have to kind of invest more and more, right. So I think if you're starting up today, try and set up the value chain of a business where you know, straight away you can make 3,040% margin back from whatever the consumer price, what more do you need to give the retailer down to then obviously what your cost of goods are trying to set up a model where you know you can make 30 or 40% today, is that is the first. 00:16:00:23 - 00:16:31:15 Giles Brook It's the first thing I say for those of slightly further down the journey. People just think it's growth, growth, growth, right. It's not be careful. It's not growth at any cost. And my advice is today is and you know, I've had this conversation with numerous of my involvements the last few days. So over the last few weeks is if you came to me today and said, look, we can have a compounded growth rate of 45%, but make 5% EBITDA over the next three years, or I can have 30 or 35% growth rate over the next three years, but make 10%. 00:16:31:17 - 00:16:58:00 Giles Brook I'd want the latter. I'd rather because 3o-35% growth with a 10% EBITDA. In my mind, today is much stronger than a 4,045% growth to the 5% EBITDA. Because people you need to rebalance the PNL and it's really important that people, you know, the you know, the people have a balanced PNL. And the bit that people forget as well is that if you don't have a good gross margin, the starting place, you're going to continually be fundraising and fundraising and fundraising. 00:16:58:00 - 00:16:59:08 Giles Brook You just run out of cash the whole time. 00:16:59:08 - 00:17:08:22 Dan That's, that's, that's that's a war of attrition. The mind and the soul. Yeah, yeah, we've gone through that is it's just it's that's where the funds sort of get squeezed out of that. 00:17:08:22 - 00:17:22:12 Giles Brook Absolutely. But going back to advice, you said to me, look at the top three things, right? Yeah. The number one thing that I want to explain to everybody is there's something that's more important. So I when I talk about revenue, gross margin, EBITDA, that's let's just call that PNL stuff, right. 00:17:22:12 - 00:17:26:02 Dan It's that, as we said, the biggest pain now that's financials finance. Yeah, that's going to be the. 00:17:26:02 - 00:17:47:11 Giles Brook Number one thing is brand okay. Yeah. And that's what people don't understand. Right. Is that I've known businesses that on paper look absolutely exceptional because the PNLs are unbelievable. But if anybody is going to acquire you they will spend sometime six figures. I had more than 100,000 pounds on conducting audits of your business, but more important of your brand. 00:17:47:11 - 00:17:59:05 Giles Brook So they will do brand health surveys that will use very strong consumer marketing agencies and stuff to look at the categories you operate in and to understand how strong your brand is in those categories. 00:17:59:10 - 00:18:01:09 Dan What are some of the metrics on those? Health. 00:18:01:11 - 00:18:25:04 Giles Brook So it will be advocacy will be in that loyalty. You know, will be it being there. I mean, again, when you get more data, see, it's about retention. It's acquisition cost. There's loads of different metrics, but it's basically it's sure it's kind of something called the Net Promoter Score, right? Yes. It's in the consumer world is would you recommend that brand, you know, to your friends to buy? 00:18:25:06 - 00:18:52:19 Giles Brook People would look at that brand and, you know, give you an example. If you look at something like in coffee, for example, there's been some really good startups that have done a really good job, not too good revenue numbers. But actually when you look at the number of exits in coffee, there's not been many. And one of the big reasons for that is people are looking at that and saying, look, I think you've done a great job, but if I look at you against the likes of, you know, espresso, Illy, etc., I can't ever see how you got to play against those guys because that such strong brands in that category. 00:18:52:21 - 00:19:15:13 Giles Brook But if you look at, you know, again, if I look at what we did, invite Coco, right? Coconut water, the brand like Coco became synonymous with coconut water. We had PepsiCo come in, you know, with naked and also with harmless and harmless harvest in the US came in through another corporate. We also had some coming in obviously through through the coke system and we got bludgeoned that. 00:19:15:13 - 00:19:35:13 Giles Brook But what the thing that won, the reason that we won on that is because we spent every minute, every second of every day. How do we become the number one brand for the consumer on coconut water, so that we became synonymous with coconut water. And that's what won through and that's why when you look at the coconut water walls and they were walls, it got really, really personal. 00:19:35:13 - 00:19:50:11 Giles Brook They got very, very challenging. And both you know, I looked after Europe, but also with micron in the US, the number one thing that won us through alongside a very strong was supply chain, which we can always talk about separately. But was the brand strength right. The brand that we knew that everybody out, you know innocent was a juice player. 00:19:50:17 - 00:20:02:12 Giles Brook You know naked also was in juice. All we obsessed about was coconut. We made sure that we unique consumers knew that we were just always dedicated to bring them the best possible coconut products that gave us such a strong, resilient position. 00:20:02:14 - 00:20:25:11 Dan So it's fascinating. So I am I've I've been writing this thing recently about like the 1% of the 1% and how how you know, I've interviewed Julian Metcalfe recently, James Watt yourself today. Adam balance innocence. Yeah. And I'm thinking like, what makes these guys operate at a different fucking level, like the 1%, 1%. And they have this thing called called a barbell strategy, which is by Nassim Taleb. 00:20:25:11 - 00:20:44:01 Dan And it's if you want to be antifragile, super strong, you have to basically is in investment is doing a few high risk things with lots of sort of low risk things, and you can apply it to life. Right. And, Julian's thing is simplicity and complexity. His whole thing is like, if I, he can hold complex, complex things in simplicity. 00:20:44:03 - 00:20:58:17 Dan Adams was he talked about, you know, he loves race car driving. He was like, that's actually a lot like building a brand. It's it's the got the darkness and the and the bulls and the car to go around the track. But if you don't balance that and balance that with some data, you're completely fucked because you're going the wrong way around. 00:20:58:17 - 00:21:16:19 Dan Yeah. James, what speed versus direction? He's a I would rather move so fast and fuck up 30% and and then we can course correct by listening to the consumer. Yeah. And what I'm getting from you, mate, is it's this balance between this, these financials on the left hand side naturally. And it is the whole point of this is it's attention. 00:21:16:19 - 00:21:32:02 Dan Yes. It's you know, because I think so. You've got financials and brand. And I think what so many things do is like right. We'll build a fucking amazing brand. And then kind of let the not not neglect the financials but not think about that EBITDA thing and then you end up with an amazing brand, but you can't get an exit. 00:21:32:03 - 00:21:43:17 Dan Yeah. The other way around you build an amazing business. You have no brand. And I think and I'd love to go into the Copa Wars, the kind of sorry, the coconut wars to, to actually get into this. Yeah. 00:21:43:17 - 00:21:47:20 Giles Brook You've got you've got what you got to do is you got to balance the business. And just to finish a bit on the brand bit. Right. Is that I'm just. 00:21:47:20 - 00:21:48:19 Dan Gonna check these lights, but yeah. 00:21:48:20 - 00:22:03:22 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah, please. Yeah. On the brand piece. Right. If you think about it. Is that. Yeah. You need to be a hero in your category. And that's the big thing. When we looked at, you know, when we sold the bad business, we were the leading brand. We were the biggest and the most and the leading brand for kids fruit snacking. 00:22:03:22 - 00:22:19:22 Giles Brook Right. And that's what made a big difference. Invite cocoa. You know, at one point in time, we had a 92% market share of coconut water that got down to as low as 51%. But all the way through that time, regardless of market share, we were always the number one coconut water, right? Yeah. And that was that was the big thing, right? 00:22:19:24 - 00:22:37:04 Giles Brook That's what buyers want to see. They want to bring in, you know, if you look for a successful exit, they need to make sure that your hero category. And that's why if you're actually got a big turnover, but you're listed across 5 or 6 categories and you're a jack of all, but master none of those categories, difficult to get a very exciting exit because you're just not powerful enough. 00:22:37:06 - 00:22:42:15 Giles Brook Any of those categories. That's not just for who wants to buy you. It's more important for the for the buyer. Yeah. So if you're in so. 00:22:42:17 - 00:22:44:05 Dan When you say buyers in the the. 00:22:44:05 - 00:23:02:03 Giles Brook If you want to if you're in a sold supermarket buy right. If you're Tesco Sainsbury's or whatever. Right. My advice is always build really deep before you go wide. Right. Which basically means, you know. So if you look at let's look at one of my current ones, buyer me for example. Right. We are we are just we are focused on two categories. 00:23:02:05 - 00:23:24:04 Giles Brook We've got cereal and then we've got basically dairy. And we're not going any further than that at this stage. Right. Because we just want the cereal. We've got muesli, porridge and granola. And we've also got some cereal bars which sit as part of that portfolio. And then we also have cafe yogurts and cafe drinks. Yeah, they are billion dollar opportunities in in themselves. 00:23:24:04 - 00:23:42:14 Giles Brook Right. We are not just working in the bars and just focus on those two categories and just to make sure that we're absolute heroes in those categories. We're getting loads of things. Or you could go and do this category, this and this. And actually for us it's no, no, we're going to build really deep because then we know if we become hero in those categories, it really does help us at some point in time on actually that business. 00:23:42:19 - 00:24:02:11 Giles Brook We're in the strongest possible place because we're very strong in that. Right. So category. But I also just wanted to mention to you, Dan was, well, what I don't think people realize is, is that when you come to sell your business, you are going to be sat in a due diligence meetings with not just the commercial director, the marketing director, the MD, the CEO, the whoever it is. 00:24:02:14 - 00:24:30:05 Giles Brook These big entities are obviously kicking the tires on your business these days. Now there is a guy like you sat there with a laptop who is a data guy, right? When you go into an exit process, whoever's buying you will. I guarantee you, unless you are very lucky, you have very deep pockets as a startup, a challenger brand, they will know more about your brand, your consumer and your business from a data perspective than you will because they have access to all of the consumer, shopper and category data. 00:24:30:07 - 00:24:44:06 Giles Brook So I've honestly, I've seen it. And funny enough, I was speaking with some of the, the, I mean, advisors in the last few weeks and they were laughing. They were said also, I've been in some meetings recently and some of the founders jaws are just dropping because I suddenly sat there going, oh my God. They're like, that's that. 00:24:44:06 - 00:24:59:11 Giles Brook They're going, oh my God, these guys know more about my brand. Am I consumer than I do? So don't bluff, don't bullshit. But also you've got to make sure you know your your consumer really, really well because you know, the stakes are very high and an exit and you've got it. You've got to realize you've got to be on top of your game. 00:24:59:11 - 00:25:01:18 Giles Brook If you want to get successful, exit the. 00:25:01:20 - 00:25:23:05 Dan To be a hero of of your category pieces is fascinating. And it goes back to that tension. If you can build a massive business across multiple categories. I did, Tim Reese from Coco invited me to do that sales training thing for them, okay. Which was great because basically and they got on their wall in their office like a, a panoply of different categories they tried to go into. 00:25:23:11 - 00:25:40:10 Dan They had like rights, Coco, CBD, Vita, Coco, all sorts, and they and the lesson from that was we tried to go and go for these sort of land grab opportunities. And they realized by actually just doubling down on the core, they've grown a massive business. Yeah. But then the reason they brought with me in is, is because they've got this. 00:25:40:12 - 00:25:55:07 Dan All this will go live once it's launched. So I can talk about it. We've got this new treat skew that's never been seen off in the States. Yeah. And so they're like, well we've, we've and it's just been it's not a barbell. It's like focus on cool versus innovate. And you focus on you and you're trying to. 00:25:55:09 - 00:26:14:21 Dan And I think Aristotle has got a quote which quotes you're trying to find golden mean which is that middle point. And that's where like that's where the goal is. And you know, they swung too far with all this NPD. And then now they focus. Now they're going back. And the treats, I think, is this new product that's doing really well in the States and they're trying to unleash it here. 00:26:14:23 - 00:26:29:16 Dan So that's what I sort of like how we do to sell it into the retail and make it fun and like convivial and all that sort of stuff. But how how do brands find that golden mean in between those two polar things? Because it's like, how do you want me? 00:26:29:16 - 00:26:51:05 Giles Brook Yeah, but you've hit you've hit the nail on the head, which is I think people think that, you know, innovation has got to be as weird, as wacky and as different and out there as possible. Right? Yeah. Innovating close to the core is the number one advice I can give everything be about innovation, right? Because if you innovate, if you've got something, if your core business or your core category, your core skill is, is, is really strong. 00:26:51:07 - 00:27:10:10 Giles Brook Doing different derivatives or very similar products of that is going to create more value for you for the shareholder and for the consumer, whichever way you want. Look at it. And there's so many examples. That's the Vita Coco one you give. You know I remember you know across I was in that business 12 years. We did every single flavor like passion fruit, pomegranate, blah blah blah. 00:27:10:10 - 00:27:23:22 Giles Brook We did sparkling. We did everything. We tried everything. And then we sat there and we obviously had like hockey pure. And then somebody said, well, look, everybody's the number thing. One thing we've always known as people said, look, you've got to wash it tasting more like a pina colada. So we're like. 00:27:24:02 - 00:27:25:23 Dan That's that's the white skew isn't it? Yeah. 00:27:26:00 - 00:27:50:06 Giles Brook So that's the pressed, right. So all we did was we took the great cool pure offering and we basically blended in the 2,030% pure pure to create a much more richer and sweeter coconutty tasting flavor, which was we call pressed, which is for those people who are real diehard loves coconut taste that. So that's consumer. And it tasted well see clearly no alcohol at all, but it tasted almost like a you know what? 00:27:50:06 - 00:28:11:12 Giles Brook You sort of pina colada within the first 12 months, that press launch delivered more revenue to the group than the last seven years of innovation. In total in 12 months. And again, let me give you one example as well, just in marketing, I just think so smart at the moment is that, again, look at the Red bull juggernaut, right. 00:28:11:14 - 00:28:31:03 Giles Brook Red bull, at the end of the day, 99.8% of their turnover or night less I say 90, whatever it is, 95, 99%. Whatever you wanna say is their regular Red bull and then their sugar free Red bull and then different pack sizes around that. Right? So actually don't forget pack size packaging is big innovation as well as obviously looking at different variants. 00:28:31:03 - 00:28:51:02 Giles Brook Right. They've tried tonics, they've tried Red Bull Cola. They've tried additions. All of them do hard anything. But what's really smart I think that they've done, in the last few weeks has been announced. So they've now launched Red bull Zero. So I've looked at the Coke model and said, well actually that's look, they've got Coke, Diet Coke, Coke Zero. 00:28:51:04 - 00:29:05:02 Giles Brook So what they've done now is I said, well do you know what? Let's do the same on energy drinks. So we've already got the sugar free and we've already got the regular. But actually sugar free doesn't taste the same as the regular. But let's do a Coke Zero equivalent and call it Red Bull Zero. And they've launched that. 00:29:05:04 - 00:29:22:16 Giles Brook And I guarantee you that it's going to absolutely fly. And you know again another example is look at Oatly right. They have the oat drink. They then have the organic boom and then have the British tradition and stuff. Again very similar product but slight twist or nuance on it. And these are all hugely incremental bringing new consumers. 00:29:22:16 - 00:29:34:08 Dan The the format things fascinating and I think is actually I think as you say, people can get think because I'm an entrepreneur or a founder or even the team. It's like we've got it decent fucking built like that Jaguar. Yeah, that thing is, I do think so fucking bonkers. 00:29:34:08 - 00:29:39:05 Giles Brook Trending. I maybe that's what it's all behind it. I mean, that was really bad, but this is I think. 00:29:39:07 - 00:29:55:00 Dan We've got to do something so wacky and crazy to really push the boundaries. And you see brands just kind of moving, as you say, away from their core category. And then you I'm walking down another, I'm like, shit, these guys are playing in here. And I won't say the brands, but like, that's crazy. But the format thing is really interesting is actually quite easy to do. 00:29:55:00 - 00:30:12:04 Dan And there's the sales director, Vice coca was talking about consumption expansion. Yeah. So he was saying that, you know, if you get a pack of eight of those, right, your cocoa things in your in store like six pack of, I don't know the actual sizes if that's in your fridge. You were going to boss through that. And I know this for a fact from Diet Coke. 00:30:12:04 - 00:30:26:23 Dan If I've got Diet Coke in the fridge and I've got eight of them, I will just blitz through them. Yeah, versus I've got one. It's like all you've got to do is make the sorry, make the pack bigger. Get that in. It's not that they still but then it's going to drive your sales and it's this consumption expansion thing. 00:30:26:23 - 00:30:37:20 Dan And you know I think it's what they do very well by doing those big those big things. I need to see if I've got one at home. But also sorry versus say ten. I will get through four days. So just bring. 00:30:37:22 - 00:30:54:23 Giles Brook Your drink more in between the same. Yeah. Because let's just say it varies by person. But let's say your average main shopping trip is every seven days. Yeah. Guarantee you if you get that strategy right you can double, triple, double treble or even quadruple your consumption. Yeah. Over that same period by just getting the pack size. And you're right, you've got DC. 00:30:55:03 - 00:31:08:03 Giles Brook You've also got, you know, a vehicle like Costco as well. You see people buy massive packs in Costco, but they're buying as frequently because they get the consumption now they're not running out during, you know, during the day between when they're making the, you know, the second, but the first and the second purchase. Right. 00:31:08:05 - 00:31:15:24 Dan It's it's a no brainer. So that's another way to innovate is just is just is just literally the format. What about. 00:31:15:24 - 00:31:33:15 Giles Brook But it's also one of the big thing on that as well. Right. And this is why some of the brands are smart in the DTC world is the more you can get the consumer into the subscription model, the better, because that's because, you know, consumers. But let's say you got consumers buying on DTC, right? They will basically buy when they remember whatever it is. 00:31:33:15 - 00:32:00:18 Giles Brook Right. If you get a subscription model set up and typically you'll see a 1,015% discount, it works for the consumer as well. They will then get a repeat order going through to them on a set period every single month, and just you will just see straight away that once you get, you know, again, we'll have done a great job on this, by the way, which is one of mine, is that, you know, once you get somebody on the subscription model, they stay in the brand, the launch, the brand, but you also generate the right frequency of purchase. 00:32:00:18 - 00:32:21:08 Giles Brook But actually, if you're smart during when somebody's subscribed, you can then also get them to buy more and stuff like that. So particularly when you're bringing out, you know, new varieties or whatever like that, they suddenly add that onto the subscription and again, the volume goes up and stuff. But subscription means that you haven't got to rely on the consumer remembering to buy, because actually there's the automated subscription comes out again. 00:32:21:10 - 00:32:29:03 Dan I thought about that and it just again, it's it's kind of like it's like the online version of the bigger pack, isn't it? Really. It's just how do you get. 00:32:29:05 - 00:32:29:17 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:32:29:20 - 00:32:41:17 Dan Right. And get your brand to seep into people's habits. I want to talk about this and I think it's really interesting frame to look through things is there's a guy called Charlie Munger who's Warren Buffett's business partner. 00:32:41:17 - 00:32:42:08 Giles Brook Yeah. 00:32:42:10 - 00:33:05:06 Dan Wrote a fascinating book. And he, called Charlie's Almanac, and he and he basically he has this rule called inversion. So you learn more by what's going wrong versus what's going right. So just avoid bad things. Wisdom is prevention. Wisdom is prevention. And he does this talk at I think it's at Harvard's commencement speech. And he's also to give a talk about how to be happy or how to live a great life. 00:33:05:11 - 00:33:23:08 Dan So what he does is he says how to live a miserable life. And he says basically everything I've written down. Just avoid that and you'll be happy. So you learn more by avoiding bad things. I think he says, you know, if you want to be really miserable, take take drugs and booze, be unreliable, be envious, be resentful like that. 00:33:23:08 - 00:33:41:06 Dan That's his list. He's like, you avoid those things, you'll be happy. Yeah. I want to apply this to food and drink. I mean, you can use any brand. I'd say a brand that's in maybe 5 or 6. Maybe even a Coke. That's a bit too big. But around that ilk, say you want to try and commit brand, decide and kill off a brand in grocery. 00:33:41:08 - 00:33:50:13 Dan What are some of the things you do? And I think this will really help listeners to avoid them. So I think the first one would obviously be to like let let's drop the gross margin to say 10%. 00:33:50:17 - 00:33:55:09 Giles Brook So how would we succeed as a brand by obviously how is accessible than others. Right. 00:33:55:09 - 00:33:58:12 Dan Yeah, yeah. How would you kind of kill off a brand and then a. 00:33:58:12 - 00:33:59:04 Giles Brook Competitor brand new. 00:33:59:04 - 00:34:02:05 Dan On the back? No, no. Your brand I think sorry. It's because because that. 00:34:02:05 - 00:34:04:05 Giles Brook That that would go into danger territory. Yeah. Yeah. 00:34:04:05 - 00:34:21:12 Dan No no no no no no. It's a really good reframe. He says if you just avoid these things then you'll be successful. So say with this podcast, if I want it to kill off this podcast. Right. Don't post every week. Yeah. Don't invest in the cameras and stuff too. Don't prepare for it. 00:34:21:14 - 00:34:23:13 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah. No I said yeah. 00:34:23:15 - 00:34:23:20 Dan Yeah. 00:34:23:20 - 00:34:41:10 Giles Brook So again this is my view right. And not everybody will share it because you got people who got different models. And you know, my model is because, you know, some people invest an insane amount of money because they want to be the next listed business or the next unicorn billion dollar business. Right? I'm a middle road sort of person. 00:34:41:10 - 00:34:57:16 Giles Brook I want to invest and grow businesses from five, ten, 20, 30, 40, 50 million. But I'm always going to I want to do it where there's a business, there's a validation each time. So we will always check before we put big sums of money down. We'll always test something or check some, right? So just bear in mind I'm not middle level of risk in terms of building a business. 00:34:57:16 - 00:35:16:18 Giles Brook Right. But within within that way of thinking, the things that I will say, look, if you want to kill a brand off here, the things to do so launch or else. Agree a listing with a customer, a ridiculously low gross margin if you're below 20% gross margin. Because sometimes people are justify it and say, well, look how actually look, there's a market for this. 00:35:16:18 - 00:35:35:08 Giles Brook It's amazing visibility. Let's do it now. There may always be the exception of that. But generally I would say, look, have your pricing parameters give your sales team the pricing corridors that they can work with them, but don't drop below that, because once you drop below that, you just end up burning through too much cash and you're not making enough money. 00:35:35:08 - 00:35:56:21 Giles Brook And it becomes, unfortunately, a little bit of a, a kind of downward spiral from there. So I think that's the first thing I say. I think the second thing I'd say, as well as don't buy the listings either, because quite often you'll see that people not just having to invest in a case price to buy it, but they also have to put big lump sums down particular saying, oh, you need a, you know, there's a listing fee of ten, 10,000, 20,000 pounds. 00:35:56:21 - 00:36:15:00 Giles Brook That's that's quite common in the travel environment, by the way. So if you go into those customers, you know, like the travel of this world and stuff like that, if you have to kind of pay for space in those sort of places because it's, it's a bit who wants the space? And then some of those are great, great brand building sites, but you've got to make sure that you've got the commercial parameters right. 00:36:15:00 - 00:36:37:10 Giles Brook Because if you haven't, suddenly you start hemorrhaging cash, because if the right sale is not strong enough, you go down pretty quickly because you suddenly invested too much, too much in that. Right? So I think be very careful about the support package, the investment you put against certain customers. You know, I always do on what I call a percentage basis rather than the cash basis to say, look, actually, we'll give you 3 or 5% of, revenue back in marketing. 00:36:37:12 - 00:36:52:09 Giles Brook That's fine because you're only exposed to 3 or 5% whatever revenue generate. But if you said, I'm going to put ten, 20, 30, 50,000 pounds down, yeah, the revenue is next to nothing. You're not going because suddenly that ten, 15, 20 million as a percentage of the revenue becomes a huge amount, right? 00:36:52:15 - 00:36:53:02 Dan I love that. 00:36:53:04 - 00:36:54:08 Giles Brook Thing. So look at that. 00:36:54:08 - 00:36:55:20 Dan Delicious piece of nuance that. Yeah. 00:36:55:20 - 00:36:58:00 Giles Brook Yeah. So it's just details like that. 00:36:58:02 - 00:37:06:01 Dan What other little details like to really kill off a brand. Because again, it's it's that's literally that's literally just putting a different thing on the former's like do percentage versus cash because. 00:37:06:04 - 00:37:29:03 Giles Brook There's a, there's a few which people will say, well, I'm being controversial here or not, I don't know. I think overtly criticizing competitors and going on a marketing campaign where all you do is just diss your competitive set. I think it's a very dangerous thing to do. Seeing a number of challenger brands kind of take long established brands in the category and do consumer campaigns and talk about how crap they're, how rubbish they are, and sometimes taking a swipe at them. 00:37:29:03 - 00:37:47:10 Giles Brook And we've seen, you know, we've all seen some backlash in the media about that as well into this inappropriate and also people have been asked to take ads down, talk about your own brand and its own merits rather than dissing direct customers. I don't have an issue if you talk about the in the category in general. So if you're doing something differently that's healthier or better and everybody else. 00:37:47:10 - 00:38:04:20 Giles Brook So let's just take soft drinks. Let me, for example, let me take Dalton's example, which one of mine? We absolutely are right to talk about the fact that we are sparkling water and we are, fruit, nothing else versus the fact that all those other soft drinks have got stuff like aspartate and stuff like them, which is a time bomb waiting. 00:38:04:20 - 00:38:33:12 Giles Brook I mean, that's the ultra processed foods we've seen already, but that soft drinks world is going to change in the next three 3 to 5 years because it's going to be regulation, because those ingredients are all going to get found out. And I think you can you can absolutely, at category level talk about that. But what I don't want the guys at Dalton to do is start calling out that orange brand or that lemonade brand or that brand and start testing them, because I think it's a really dangerous thing, because you lose a lot of credibility as a brand, both with consumer and with people in the industry. 00:38:33:12 - 00:38:35:05 Giles Brook If you do that. 00:38:35:07 - 00:38:49:11 Dan Yeah. Back to that sort of financial brand tension. It's yeah, I it's it just I've been spoken to loads of buyers and on panel and heard on panels. It's like the worst thing you can do is go in and dis a brand is a competitor. It just looks like you've got no confidence in your own self, in your own brand. 00:38:49:13 - 00:38:54:04 Dan And that will seep through to the consumer. What else? Like what are the ways to potentially kill off a brand? 00:38:54:04 - 00:39:12:06 Giles Brook Yeah, I think probably overspending on general marketing before you've got the brand established. And I've seen this the whole time which ATL campaigns. Yeah, I've seen it like I've seen people running like tube campaigns when they're in less than 300 stores and you're like, why are you investing in consumer awareness when people can't even know where to or can't? 00:39:12:06 - 00:39:28:16 Giles Brook It can hardly buy you anywhere. Your best thing there is just, you know, take a fraction that spend read if you want to take the same spend, invest in proximity to purchase, right? Go and invest in the store. So if you're in Wholefoods, when in Sainsbury's, go and speak to those guys and say, right, how do we bring the brand to life and store or market there? 00:39:28:16 - 00:39:42:21 Giles Brook Because you've got a much better chance about educating a consumer who could then convert to purchase and then importantly, knows where to buy it as well. You see too many people spending too early on generic consumer marketing before they even built up the distribution. 00:39:42:23 - 00:39:58:22 Dan That's a glorious kind of linking this to the Julian's Bar. But if simplicity and complexity is, as you say, a brand, I've seen there's loads around London brands going to 200 waitress stores and they've got fucking ATL campaign. I'm thinking, this is crazy madness. It's like that is that it's so easy to get complex on that, so easy to go and spend loads on influencer campaign. 00:39:58:22 - 00:40:17:09 Dan So he's going to spend loads on doing an event and a launch party. So he's, he's going to spend loads on, as you say, ATL campaigns. It's like proximity of purchase. That is that's the golden it's golden mean I like Aristotle I don't know why it's getting philosophical, but it is really interesting that the what would you say? 00:40:17:11 - 00:40:38:17 Dan Are some other sort of, barbell tensions. And, you know, I, I don't know if you read it, that thing between the founder mode essay and I thought that was by Paul Graham. I thought that was really interesting is what he basically says is this is this is I think you called it rightly so in our last podcast, Founder Writers, which I thought was a fucking brilliant, just a beautiful way of saying it. 00:40:38:19 - 00:40:50:11 Dan And he basically what he's all about is this tension between operators. You know, someone says, you know, you get called a very good operator, Mark Palmer, very good operator. Then you've got sort of the founders, sort of the more kind of. Yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah, yeah. 00:40:50:16 - 00:40:51:19 Giles Brook A bit all the time. Yeah. 00:40:51:19 - 00:40:52:00 Dan You see 00:40:52:00 - 00:41:16:08 Dan it all the time. And I suppose what I think happens and I've seen this first hand, I've heard, I've heard it happen. This, this the Airbnb guy who, who in this essay basically talks about it. He says founders start at the beginning. You need this founders magic. As brands scale, you need to become more operational. And what basically happens is you get these guys who've come in from Big Blue chip companies who sort of say, well, we need to get the founder out of here because this isn't the way we're used to running it. 00:41:16:09 - 00:41:33:02 Dan You know, they lot of times you hear someone say, oh, the founders of Fucking nightmare work with these. Is he or she's a lunatic. And that happened. This is what happens in all these businesses and this this talk, this founder mode essays with all the some of the biggest stops in Silicon Valley. And basically they found a kind of gets pushed out of the business. 00:41:33:02 - 00:41:40:00 Dan And then actually what happens is you go down the line like, shit, we need that magic. Because that magic like and that's a ball itself. 00:41:40:00 - 00:41:42:05 Giles Brook These guys know the fairy dust, right? They got. 00:41:42:07 - 00:41:46:02 Dan How would you what's your I mean, after that, everything you've gone through. 00:41:46:04 - 00:41:48:16 Giles Brook I mean look. Right. It's again, this is my view. 00:41:48:16 - 00:41:51:04 Dan Yeah. 00:41:51:06 - 00:42:09:09 Giles Brook I think people have to respect founders, right. I sometimes I do see particularly institutional come in as a proactive venture capitalist. And sometimes it's like the grim Reaper. They'll just side for the business of how they want. Right. But I think from my perspective, you've got to remember, founders typically put everything they've got on the line and sacrifice everything. 00:42:09:09 - 00:42:33:04 Giles Brook They've got to get a business or brand off the ground. And I've always had ultimate respect for founders to say, look, you've got to remember this is their baby. They've done all this, but at the same time, you have scenarios whereby founders are apps exceptional at what they do, but equally could be a blind spot about why the brand isn't reaching potential, because that actually all the ingredients can be there to have an incredible business. 00:42:33:06 - 00:42:54:13 Giles Brook But the founder doesn't have the capability or the experience all the skill set to unlock it. So where you've got, you know, a founder who understands that, obviously, you know, so I'll speak to some founders sometimes and you bring either a management team or even somebody alongside them who's got that, those messy ingredients together, those dynamics become unbelievable. 00:42:54:13 - 00:43:18:01 Giles Brook Right? And, you know, I've got so many of my businesses where I've got really good founders, but also now in people alongside, they've just transformed the business. And it's nothing against the founder at all. The founders still like 24 seven. Absolutely. You know, full, full tilt running in the business. But you know, there's a number of things you look at which is the founders know what they're brilliant at, but also know where the shortcomings are. 00:43:18:03 - 00:43:40:23 Giles Brook And this when you talk to me about why I invest in when I invest, that's one of the big things I have to I have to make sure that when I first met a founder, I know that they are somebody can listen, because that's if you look at there've been some really exciting brands and businesses which should have been really successful, but actually they had a founder in them that was didn't listen for whatever reason, whether to pigheaded or else just actually know my way is the only way. 00:43:40:23 - 00:44:01:06 Giles Brook And I think this is how it should be. I think having a founders who listen, who listens is really, really important. And equally, as an investor, I've got to listen equally. But you put in a complementary skill set, senior leadership team or else an MD alongside a founder at whatever stage you think is required. Typically that will only do one thing, which is, you know, make the business successful. 00:44:01:06 - 00:44:19:24 Giles Brook And can I give one of the best examples right where we are sitting, where we are sitting now? Yeah. Lucky saint. Right. Luke. Absolutely outstanding founder. I can't talk highly enough of him. You know, it's one that I should have invested in. But you know, it didn't just because with Covid and stuff and it didn't quite happen. But you know Luke's an incredible job. 00:44:20:01 - 00:44:45:13 Giles Brook But also he realized that, you know, he was from one out there from outside of the industry, but also there are people in industry that could actually compliment him really well. Brought in Emma Hill, right? I'm a absolute machine like. And honestly, I cannot talk highly about her skill set and her ability to scale businesses. You know, I saw as innocent when we used to work together, you know, she went and did the same at Gray's, and now she's in here at like you saying, you know, doing doing a you're doing a great job. 00:44:45:15 - 00:45:06:02 Giles Brook And this is a great example about how suddenly you can take a great, a good business and a good brand to actually becoming a really exciting, great and outstanding business surround, you know, as a founder in the same way as an investor. Right? So one principle here, just surround yourself with outstanding people. Never be too proud, never be be too much about, you know, I'm a control freak. 00:45:06:04 - 00:45:09:11 Giles Brook You know, put put good people around you and the business will always be stronger. 00:45:09:13 - 00:45:26:14 Dan What are the different types of of operator. Because I think you've worked there's almost like different shades and textures. I think you talked about Jonah innocent being like, I think on our first when we read Jamie, like, you put any Footsie 100 business. So yeah, it's a shame you've got Emma like describe with the operators across all your businesses what you've worked with. 00:45:26:14 - 00:45:41:12 Dan Like what are the different types? Yeah. I think the founder, the founder stereotype is very founder. It's like you can kind of I've spoken to so many of them. Yeah, I kind of get that. But what would you say is some of these different, the different operators and what are some of the lessons from that? 00:45:41:14 - 00:46:00:04 Giles Brook You're right on the founder stereotype, but actually there are examples where they're not always stereotypical. Right. So for example, I'll give you example, take Byron me, which is one of mine. Right. You obviously got Meegan, but you've also got John. Yeah. Now John particularly it's first time founder. Right. But because John is what I'm saying, the Twilight is career is probably unfair. 00:46:00:04 - 00:46:15:14 Giles Brook But John John and I are a similar age. Right. John has a huge Mac experience. Therefore, actually, if you look at him and running the business, I think you'll actually have a lot of longevity because he's run, you know, he's been in big companies before that. He's been at Nestlé, he's been a PNG, he's got great experience. 00:46:15:19 - 00:46:28:08 Giles Brook He's also got quite an entrepreneurial flair. So actually I think he will, you know, he will be able to take the business to a significant scale. Whether the founders I think were, you know, potentially run out of kind of runway. And that's where you've got to look at. Yeah. Bringing somebody in. 00:46:28:09 - 00:46:42:22 Dan Yeah. I would actually say yeah, that and this is very reductionist. These two sort of buckets of yeah, yeah. Stereotypes are like, yeah, we need to be careful here. But he's someone who I would say a, an operator with a founder's flair. Like he and I think a love John. Right. 00:46:42:23 - 00:46:43:06 Giles Brook Yeah. Yeah. 00:46:43:09 - 00:47:02:19 Dan He's in the right place with the founder's flair. But then say people are looking for operators to come in to their business. And, yeah, maybe we can talk about the different textures or styles. Like what? What would you say they should be looking for? Because again, I've seen it combust and like the amount of times it's happened. So James Watt at BrewDog. 00:47:02:19 - 00:47:17:05 Dan So I'm never going to hire a blue chip. And all of this is new ones, right? Everyone's got their own way of doing. That's why I love this fucking podcast, because there's a gazillion ways to skin the cat. Ben Branson I'll never hire a blue chip person again. You know that. There were more founders, but then there are other businesses. 00:47:17:07 - 00:47:31:15 Dan But if you get that sweet spot right, and you get almost it's not like product market fit. It's like founder operates, which is what lucky saint. Yeah, yeah. Then it can fly and like, some of my friends have got so many businesses and they they lack that. Operator so what should they be looking for in their operations? 00:47:31:18 - 00:47:50:23 Giles Brook So I think, I think it's very much business and founder dependent. Right. So yeah. You know, I have to say, I do concur that 9% of times it's very difficult for blue, blue chip people or corporates to come in to challenge the world and thrive. Somebody will give me exceptions, but where I've seen it in the main, it's been challenging to do that. 00:47:50:23 - 00:48:09:20 Giles Brook And it's also similarly it's difficult to get people to come in from the retailer sides. If you've been the other side of the fence and you've been a buyer to get them to come over and actually on the sell side, that's difficult because it's bloody difficult on the sell side. But also, I know that for some sellers, you know, from on the supply chain side, on the supply side, onto the buyer side, they struggle as well. 00:48:09:21 - 00:48:42:01 Giles Brook You know, some people are phenomenal what they they do. But sometimes you can't you haven't got the transferable skill set that you'd always like to go into different business environment or different different role. I mean, look, it's a very different question for me to answer because it depends on the business and the founder in question. But my my answer to you is to say you have to look at the dynamics in each business and say, look, you know, so if you look at, for example, okay, when I was running via cocoa, for example, the number one most important hire for me was to get somebody strong operationally. 00:48:42:01 - 00:48:50:22 Giles Brook And why? Because supply chain operation bores me and also is not my bag at all. So I knew that I had to surround myself with somebody exceptional, that. 00:48:50:22 - 00:48:51:07 Dan It was that. 00:48:51:07 - 00:49:08:12 Giles Brook Person. And we had, bless him, not around anymore, unfortunately, because, he lost his battle to cancer but got could Ben. Right. So I have been right. He came in so he actually used to work with Julian, back in the Metcalf days and let's say days. Ben was just phenomenal for the business and did did an amazing job for us. 00:49:08:14 - 00:49:10:17 Giles Brook I'm still in touch with, you know, his wife and his kids today. 00:49:10:17 - 00:49:13:07 Dan Actually, it was so good about what was the 1% of the 1% about. 00:49:13:07 - 00:49:31:03 Giles Brook Ben was just an absolute. He was, Cambridge smart as you come. Right. Had the ability to, you know, we had we had not just problems, but we had challenges the whole time. When you're setting up about, oh my God, how do we set out? We need to cope packing. Christ, we've got to source this. We've got to do this. 00:49:31:05 - 00:49:50:17 Giles Brook We had a very complex supply chain with, you know, bringing stuff in from Brazil as well as Asia. And it's actually a very complicated supply chain. And we were also trying to basically build the whole supply chain ourselves. That gave us competitive margin. Yes. We had an American team who we also worked with, but Ben just would just eat through this work, but also just had the ability to make stuff happen. 00:49:50:17 - 00:50:13:19 Giles Brook That's the biggest thing I would say. And you talked about this earlier, which is there are a lot of people who sit on paper and also what they say strategically are absolutely outstanding. But there is a big this, you know, again, I can think of so many founders and businesses who I thought could have been successful, but unfortunately, they found all the people in the business didn't have the ability to be operators and to be actually deliver the strategy. 00:50:13:21 - 00:50:33:11 Giles Brook And that's a big thing, Ben, to teach, it was the right thing to do, but then he could execute that plan as well and go and deliver it and deliver it incredibly well. And that's the biggest thing I'd say, is that whenever you're looking to, it's like, you know, dare I say it, you could build a business full of Harvard Business School MBA, all really smart guys. 00:50:33:13 - 00:50:51:10 Giles Brook That doesn't mean that that business is going to succeed just because they've got the intellectual powerhouse, whereas the guy rolls up his sleeve. Where's the hustler? Where's the person who's really good? Operator, you've got to have a real plan and dynamic. But I was I was probably that innocent, if I'm honest with you. You've got strategic powerhouses like Adam, Richard and John. 00:50:51:11 - 00:50:57:05 Giles Brook Yeah, you've got Jamie Mitchell, who lectures at the London Business School. Right. You got people like that. But. 00:50:57:11 - 00:50:57:21 Dan Jamie. 00:50:57:21 - 00:51:01:11 Giles Brook Jamie. Jamie was media innocent if. 00:51:01:13 - 00:51:01:17 Dan Yeah. 00:51:01:18 - 00:51:06:03 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah. He went then went to work for the Bamford group and then also Gaucho. He was chairman for that other guy. 00:51:06:06 - 00:51:06:13 Dan Yeah, yeah. 00:51:06:13 - 00:51:33:17 Giles Brook So again I understood about half of what these guys said because they were talking on a different intellectual that I'm not academically smart, but I'm streetwise and I'm smart and I'm commercially smart, and therefore I think and I believe I complemented them really well because when it came to actually, you know, we scaled up business from 1700 and 20,000,004 years, having people like me and other people in the business, I think played a massive role because actually make it then happen with the customers and scaling up. 00:51:33:19 - 00:51:45:06 Giles Brook And sometimes that was tragic. But more importantly, just being able to understand what you need to do practically to then make the things happen in store, that meant that we were then successful. That is an important ingredient. 00:51:45:09 - 00:52:02:13 Dan That's that that that is the barbell. It's it's that sort of that strategic, as you say, these, you can be super, super bright, but they need that. You need someone who's a hustler. Yeah. Hustler. I think hustle gets better. Name hustle. Go getter, relentlessly resourceful. And then that golden mean which I keep going back to is make it happen. 00:52:02:13 - 00:52:13:00 Dan Yeah. And I think you can get people either to to hustle and to go getter who and they've got. No they're just like and I'm, I'm more like this just like running like a fucking headless chicken around. 00:52:13:02 - 00:52:35:09 Giles Brook When I but you do get people who've got sweets. Some people are very I've got a can do but both. Right. Yeah. Plucking out examples like you talked about Tim Reese, writer cocoa. My God, he's one of the best examples of strategic but also being able to deliver and operate. Right I'd say James. But Master Hugh, another good example will bowler you know, so Will's done a great job, depicted pop chips and then go on to do other stuff. 00:52:35:11 - 00:53:05:24 Giles Brook So it's a child farm, etc., and post that. He's another example of guy who's actually very strategic but can also can deliver as well. And I think this is what I come back to earlier, which is you've got to look at the dynamics within whichever business you're looking at amounts to it. But I think the one thing I'd say on here, which is probably the most difficult thing for me, is, I mean, I mean, you've mentioned the word before is that I have had in my portfolio, but also I can see in other businesses where investors must be kicking themselves because you've got founders who are suffering from that find writers they always 00:53:05:24 - 00:53:23:02 Giles Brook know best. They won't let go of the baby because it's theirs and stuff like that. And you can just see potential just draining out that business every day. And you just want to go look, actually, look, just try it. Just go with me for a bit because you're going to see that business apps thrive. But you've got to let you know. 00:53:23:02 - 00:53:28:10 Giles Brook You've got to let it through, you know, let other people help you understand what that needs to happen to make that change. 00:53:28:12 - 00:53:49:17 Dan Let let's go into sort of the the trenches in the coconut wars. Yeah, I think this is a great landscape to kind of explore this, this founder operating mode. So yeah, you're in the trenches and as you say, you've kind of got missiles coming in from vivo from from PepsiCo innocent there anything I remember this because this one it's like 2016 sort of time. 00:53:49:18 - 00:54:17:02 Dan Yeah yeah yeah that's when I started money off. So I remember this vividly. And yeah like like what was say say you're kind of in, in the war bunker or the or the war room and you're trying to plot out this, this, this strategy to win, to win the Coconut Wars. Like. Yeah. Just to describe what was going on with the competitive landscape and describe like, your decision making process to say, right, then we're going to fucking do this. 00:54:17:04 - 00:54:20:23 Dan We're not going to do this, we're going to do this, and this is going to help us win. I'd love to really get deep into that. 00:54:20:23 - 00:54:46:19 Giles Brook Yeah, yeah. And I totally so that's probably the most exciting, challenging, scary time my career that, that, that kind of a four year period when we'd literally grown coconut water, we'd start the whole category in Europe. The guys done a similar job in the US. And I'll talk more about the European piece, because actually the US did exactly the same, but against a different competitive set. 00:54:46:21 - 00:55:05:21 Giles Brook Yes. And deli counter equally well. But let me talk about the European bit, because I think I'm better place to talk about that. That's probably the most rewarding time of my whole career. If only says, what are you most proud of? It's building the coconut water. And then again, I want to be careful. I say that because it's not in an arrogant way, but wrong to say seeing off the. 00:55:05:23 - 00:55:06:14 Dan But you can say. 00:55:06:14 - 00:55:28:03 Giles Brook That temporarily, temporarily, or for the time being, seeing off Coke and PepsiCo and Danone brands. To the extent we did, it's probably my kind of, you know, my most proud moment and testimony to the kind of people in the team that were built like Coco. There were a number of things. When I look back, how did how do we what made us so resilient? 00:55:28:05 - 00:55:47:17 Giles Brook One is we knew and just try to understand how we were going to market coconut water to the consumer. So it's always about why coconut water and then why that a coco was a brand of choice. And we basically there's too many businesses or go right for a start, any sort of meeting, student meeting going right, okay. How do we grow a household penetration? 00:55:47:19 - 00:56:08:14 Giles Brook How do we get that next consumer? How do we do that? On number one thing at like Coco, was that right? Let's talk about our existing consumers. How do we make sure that they stay with us. They are spending a large part the disposable income on our drink. We should never, ever fatigue from being grateful for that and understanding what else we can do to thank that consumer. 00:56:08:15 - 00:56:25:13 Giles Brook That's what obsessed about. And the scary thing is what people don't. It's a lot of businesses don't realize this, but I always say this is virtually the same in all consumer good businesses is that, you know, 20% of our consumers with 70% of our business. So if you can get that 20% right and you can give them files, we stay with you. 00:56:25:15 - 00:56:32:08 Giles Brook And why Vitaco who cares about you as a consumer? You've got a good chance of winning a battle, right? So that's one of the first things I say. 00:56:32:08 - 00:56:53:00 Dan So just on that, to quickly tease out one of the questions Julie I asked Julian was, he goes, the only time on this with the, And Metcalfe's the only time I've ever gone wrong and things have gone. Everything sort of started with this, and it's just this whole sort of cascading effect. Yeah. Things going Pete Tong is when I took my eyes off of the product and the consumer product consumer. 00:56:53:03 - 00:57:07:17 Dan And that's why I love linking all these different conversations together. Because if you have this sort of into, web of different knowledge. Yeah. And so, yeah. So when you were trying to do more for that consumer and this is almost, this is almost like the first play of this Coke in this Coke Wars is like, what were you doing specifically. 00:57:07:19 - 00:57:25:10 Giles Brook So we were looking so we basically got we knew we obviously we had a lot of we had a lot coconut newsletter that went out. So we had a load of consumers we spoke to directly. Yeah, we got in touch with them the whole time. We gave them extra discounts, do that new products coming in, they got like on topics like content how and it wasn't but let's say our top 250 or top 500 customers. 00:57:25:12 - 00:57:37:21 Giles Brook When we launched pressed, they got a gift box with that. Didn't have to pay for it. Got to say, look, you've been a really, you know, important consumer as part of our journey. Thank you. Wanted to give you on your product before it comes in market. So just all those touches we you know we you know we can find them. 00:57:38:01 - 00:57:54:21 Giles Brook We have different events going on. They got invited to the VIP area, some of those consumers because look you've been with us, you know for for this long period of time, you've always engaged with this. Come along and, you know, come and see us at this festival or this event. So we did that. We went through that and we did that through both our direct data, but also our retailers. 00:57:54:21 - 00:58:14:13 Giles Brook Obviously, a lot of the retailers have the loyalty cards and stuff, and you can see who who's who's your highest spenders. Again, we target them through our retailers. And then it was here's this cool shopper marketing is yeah. So you know so you know we did that. The second thing we did was that and that's slightly associated that was we said and this is where actually this is where we got it wrong, by the way. 00:58:14:13 - 00:58:32:06 Giles Brook So and you laugh about this, but people will say, well, Giles, Giles seem to knows what he's doing. But I always laugh because whenever I'm speaking with, you know, to people in industry, you have to remember probably somewhere between half to 70% of the advice I gave is based on mistakes I've made, not what I've got. Right? Right. 00:58:32:08 - 00:58:57:02 Giles Brook So this is one thing that and we made this decision as a board. Right. And we got our metric wrong. You know, you talk we talked earlier about key metrics in a business. So number one thing, when innocent naked and you know, other brands or came into market and there were a lot of them was because the number one thing was protect our number one market share, that was the most important thing for us. 00:58:57:02 - 00:59:02:14 Giles Brook We will always, no matter what, we will stay number one market share. So one of the issues we had. 00:59:02:17 - 00:59:07:06 Dan And that was that was your goal. And that's right. Yeah, it was a mistake using that one. 00:59:07:07 - 00:59:25:16 Giles Brook But let me explain the backdrop. Right. Yeah. So innocent seven years before coming to coconut water had launched an orange juice, which they started off in a tetra failed dismally. Everybody in the business was to kill it. But John, right, was like, no, we're sticking with this. It's going to work. We're sticking with it. We're going, it's going to work. 00:59:25:16 - 00:59:41:21 Giles Brook We've just got to work out what we need to do, because we have to go after orange juice because we can make them, you know, we don't need to just be a smoothie brand. We can reduce and smoothie brand. And I can remember some pretty conversations in the business about it, you know, John with these co-founders, etc.. Coke deal came in. 00:59:41:23 - 00:59:48:13 Giles Brook And then relaunched the orange juice into what used to be the Minute Maid plastic craft. That you remember the glass. 00:59:48:16 - 00:59:49:08 Dan Yeah. Yeah. 00:59:49:10 - 01:00:08:09 Giles Brook That great identity. All of a sudden you could see this beautiful orange juice sat in this packaging, whereas, you know, Tropicana was hidden in this tetra within three years, if not for years, innocent. A toppled Tropicana in Europe. As I understand it, virtually all the Tropicana PepsiCo team lost their jobs on the back of it because it got absolute decimated. 01:00:08:11 - 01:00:11:21 Dan So get links back to the you can just inform as innovation. 01:00:11:21 - 01:00:29:03 Giles Brook Exactly. So the reason I mention that story is yeah. Given what innocent are just done with to kind of PepsiCo and Tropicana then then launch into coconut water. So as a board. So there was me, there was Mike Coben. I found it and it was Eric Miller who was from Vernon Best, one of my main, one of my main investors. 01:00:29:05 - 01:00:40:00 Giles Brook We sat there and we're going, look, they just killed Tropicana. We have to really think very carefully what we're doing here. So what we did was we said, look, whatever they do, we're going to go toe to toe with them. 01:00:40:02 - 01:00:41:17 Dan When you say they that's PepsiCo. 01:00:41:18 - 01:00:46:23 Giles Brook That's innocent and naked. Okay. So the problem we have and this is worse. 01:00:46:23 - 01:00:47:09 Dan And yeah. 01:00:47:10 - 01:01:05:20 Giles Brook This is the problem we had was that we didn't realize. And again I'm I don't if I had the same information today I'm not sure I'd do it any differently. Or maybe I'm probably back the brand a bit more. But the bit we got wrong was, is that. The Coke and Innocence strategy and the PepsiCo strategy was coming to a market. 01:01:05:20 - 01:01:27:17 Giles Brook We've got really deep pockets. We're just going to literally discount, discount, discount. So at one time I think it was something like nine nine of 12 weeks of buy one, get one free or half price in a row. Right? So it just literally bludgeoned the market drivers much trial and penetration as you can. And then over time, because obviously we'll then take all the market share away from the leaders. 01:01:27:19 - 01:01:44:11 Giles Brook And then over time we can build that back up. So we were getting absolutely smashed on what you call average price. So back then we sell one liter, except the one liter was the real price fight on here. We were selling one liter at 349. Clearly at the retailers decide the pricing, not us, but the recommended was three four, nine. 01:01:44:11 - 01:01:56:09 Giles Brook And that typically what was in market, our average price was about 2 pounds, 72 pounds about two. I can tell you this now. Ceramic 2.60 pounds 2002 was. 01:01:56:09 - 01:02:01:11 Dan Our scores of wardrobes. What was our average right. 01:02:01:13 - 01:02:20:14 Giles Brook It went down as low as 192 and it was hovering around the early 2 pounds while innocent and, naked, were just bludgeoning primates because we were going toe to toe. Same thing on. All we did was we just crashed the market and actually we we kept that market share. 01:02:20:19 - 01:02:22:01 Dan Ruining your gross margin as well. 01:02:22:01 - 01:02:41:04 Giles Brook Right? It was killing our gross margin. Also, the retailers were going hang on a minute, there's loads of volume growth. But actually suddenly what was my most successful category in juice and smoothies? Because I would love this. Because coconut water was leading every growth. So even today, that one liter pure skew is the fourth biggest skew in the whole of that juice smoothies picture. 01:02:41:04 - 01:02:59:05 Giles Brook Even today, any private label orange juice or anything like that is phobic excuse. It's a power people don't realize. But they were like, guys, whoa, whoa, you know? And of course, retailers at one point do like, obviously if I can give consumers more value, the shoppers more value, great. But it was touched to such a point. It was just devaluing the whole category. 01:02:59:07 - 01:03:22:24 Giles Brook So the bit we got wrong is that we actually realized we didn't need to code over time. So we then still gave the consumer amazing value, but we put about 1,020% average price back on. We just changed the mechanics on promotion. So stop doing half prices because they weren't creating any value for us or for that, because the trouble is as well, if you're a half price, why shouldn't you be in the you know, if you're a half price, I might be going to pay the money at full price. 01:03:22:24 - 01:03:26:00 Giles Brook Why should I be the same as a, you know. 01:03:26:02 - 01:03:26:11 Dan This is what. 01:03:26:11 - 01:03:42:22 Giles Brook Makes me laugh. Sometimes I sit there not meetings. I sit there when I hear people get on a pedestal and start being principled as a founder or a business owner. But if you ask the same question as consumer, they give you a different answer. I'm a consumer. I wouldn't buy that because just be honest. You're saying something very different as a founder or business owner. 01:03:42:22 - 01:03:45:21 Dan Hey. Right. Delicious nuance their job. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. 01:03:46:00 - 01:04:19:15 Giles Brook So anyway, so we got so we it took us about two years. I mean I share went down as one of 50 plus 51% I don't know exactly today, but I think Tim's in a great job at getting the business. I think market share is back up 7,075%. And if in the UK and I think it's very similar in Europe, because I got both very big markets in France and Germany now, but we slowly built the valley back into the category and actually coconut waters now still like I mean, again, juice has had a particularly turbulent time over the last, you know, decades, particularly around commodity prices and obviously consumer, you know, consumers dropping an 01:04:19:15 - 01:04:37:22 Giles Brook ounce. They're looking for the functional drinks. Coconut water has been pretty resilient all the way through. But you know, the thing I got wrong and the bit I'm trying to say is that we didn't back our brand enough. I still today, when we were doing the same things, we were paranoid because we're always respectful, right, of competitors. But we actually went going toe to toe with the wrong strategy. 01:04:37:22 - 01:04:56:20 Giles Brook We should have gone down to about 70% of what they were doing, because we just took too much value out of the category. And it was a but it was a it was a really tough, tough time. But what was amazing for me was that, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of pressure on me and the senior team in the European team, but at no point in time I think Mike is the founder or Eric he was the other. 01:04:56:20 - 01:05:17:00 Giles Brook My books are quite small European bull because we lost a group bought and no point in time were any of the behaviors inappropriate or was there any pressure that was saying, you know, no, no, no, it was a time where they were telling us, you're wrong, we're taking over here. You're right thing to do. And you know, surround yourself with people who, you know, take a collective and collaborative approach. 01:05:17:02 - 01:05:22:16 Giles Brook And it was all a decision. And we, you know, we came out of it really well. But it took it it took a lot. It took a long while. 01:05:22:18 - 01:05:41:09 Dan So from that and going back to the war bunker. Right. So yeah. Yeah. As an, you know, kind of put me in here of food and drink but you know. Yeah. So it's like right, let's go toe to toe with them actually let's reverse back focus on brand. What are the other things you did. Because as you said I think yeah that's the excuse to exist now. 01:05:41:09 - 01:05:43:07 Dan But like an innocence I don't know if they still they. 01:05:43:07 - 01:05:52:14 Giles Brook Still are much, much less distribution but still are around. And I think, I think coconut water is not it's not a key strategy for them anymore. They've got other areas which are doing incredibly well. 01:05:52:14 - 01:06:02:00 Dan Yeah. As you say. You said the highlight of your career is taking note. Yeah. Decimating. And I think it's good to be competitive. I'm competitive. But you know decimating some of those big boys. What else were you doing. Well each yeah. 01:06:02:02 - 01:06:25:06 Giles Brook The other the other big things we did in the war bunker was that I don't know if you remember back then, but literally the demand for coconut water was insane. Yeah. The biggest thing that we had, the weapon we had in our armory was that we basically built a supply chain meant around about 80 to 90% of global coconut water was basically owned by the vital cocoa production network. 01:06:25:12 - 01:06:25:23 Dan Right. 01:06:26:02 - 01:06:39:19 Giles Brook So but, you know, you know, at one point in time we had it we had strategic calls to make of it as a business because we could effectively sell liquid to Coke or Pepsi and make good money on it because they couldn't get hold of any. But we were like, do we sell it or do it? And actually we didn't. 01:06:39:19 - 01:06:56:09 Giles Brook We did. We sold a bit, but we match in the end. We we created more volume elsewhere. We decided actually we would increase our demand plans elsewhere and we'd actually find more volume. So, you know, in the US they do like run, you know, don't you know. But Costco is massive in the US, right. And like an MVM I mean it's crazy like MBM which is. 01:06:56:11 - 01:06:57:00 Dan MVM. 01:06:57:00 - 01:06:59:10 Giles Brook MVM is it's the members value some. 01:06:59:12 - 01:07:00:05 Dan Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:07:00:07 - 01:07:28:02 Giles Brook It's the Costco promotion. But like a three week American Costco promotion would do about a third to 40% of the total volume in Europe in the whole year. I mean, that's just crazy. You have like, you know, 80 trucks, loads going into one Costco thing. So we we decided to utilize all the liquid we have by giving the consumers more deals and across more customers, and therefore we increase our revenue because we didn't obviously. 01:07:28:04 - 01:07:44:19 Giles Brook And yet. Yeah, we didn't want that. We didn't want obviously the water to go to waste. We obviously obviously. So I think, I think our supply chain was rival that is that is the bottom line. And I think the big thing is our supply chain, when there's a period where demand exceeds supply, that gave us a big competitive advantage. 01:07:44:20 - 01:08:03:01 Giles Brook That meant that we came through that, that world war really well. I think the other things we did as well, which again, to be clear as well, this was about, you know, doing things in the right way. We also created value our categories, which made complete sense us. So we did as well as much cocoa obviously, as in the beverage liquid. 01:08:03:01 - 01:08:10:11 Giles Brook We did cocoa oil right, which was was used for cooking oil and skins, whether that was launched. So that was launched into all the cooking oils. 01:08:10:13 - 01:08:12:07 Dan In with the Lucy B, Joe Wicks. 01:08:12:07 - 01:08:13:07 Giles Brook Exactly that. 01:08:13:09 - 01:08:14:03 Dan I remember that well. 01:08:14:06 - 01:08:15:22 Giles Brook That amount was massive in that that was like. 01:08:16:00 - 01:08:17:00 Dan 16. Yeah. 01:08:17:00 - 01:08:40:21 Giles Brook I mean that was like 7 to 9. Well, actually 7 to 12% of European turnover, about 5 to 6% of global turnover on coconut oil. And again, it was great for us because it was it was synergistic because clearly you know what you drink and what you eat. Obviously, you know using coconut oil in cooking and health and beach and stuff like that and hydrating your skin, etc. work with obviously hydrating into the liquid that you were taking in so strategically. 01:08:40:21 - 01:08:53:08 Giles Brook It worked really, really well for us. But what it also enabled us to do was a lot of consumers came into the brand through, you know, skincare and stuff in the boots or in the cooking aisle. We then managed to get those consumers and come across to start drinking it as well within, within the beverage. 01:08:53:08 - 01:09:00:10 Dan But back to your point idea of like innovate in close to the core is that is that is that innovating close to the core? 01:09:00:16 - 01:09:02:02 Giles Brook For me it is because. 01:09:02:04 - 01:09:03:07 Dan This is where you want, isn't it? 01:09:03:07 - 01:09:24:04 Giles Brook Yeah. Because because the reason being right. You know, back then we decided we weren't just a beverage company. We're a coconut company. We were going to use the natural incredibly, you know, nature's best kept secret, which is the coconut has so many different qualities. We were going to bring that to the consumer in the best way. Now, we could have done it in so many different ways, you know, loads of bits. 01:09:24:04 - 01:09:35:19 Giles Brook But actually we just where we focus on we stayed predominately in beverages, but we saw coconut oil as a big opportunity for us and therefore we just work with those. Now we could have gone into other categories as well. We could have done an Ice cream as a we didn't. 01:09:35:21 - 01:09:53:07 Dan This is the whole point of it. This, this this. Yeah, that innovation thing is new. Wants the pendulum swing. Yeah. As you say as West. They showed me when I went to do the talk because it's like that that is in the coconut oil is close to the thing, but, it's close to the core. But then I think there was I hope there's like a smorgasbord of, like, CBD. 01:09:53:08 - 01:09:55:12 Dan You coconut oil, it's like that's going out a little bit. Let me give you. 01:09:55:12 - 01:10:19:08 Giles Brook An example similar to that today. It's like so I have a lovely business where I said lovely, lovely founders. Adam Jess on a brand called Freya, which is bone broth addict. You've seen bone broth, the Bramble Scott absolute mad. It's this whole kind of collagen trend that's really gathered momentum. It's honestly unbelievable. I mean, if you see the, the predictions in the forecast, how big the bone broth is going to become is amazing. 01:10:19:08 - 01:10:38:10 Giles Brook But if you look at that, another great example where you're going to to categories are slight dip, which are completely different, but actually it's hugely synergistic. It makes sense. So we have all the liquid bone broth where we either have the, you know, we've got the cartons where obviously people then out into stock or whatever it is. We also have the instant bone broth where it's like a sachet and you have it like a hot drink and stuff. 01:10:38:12 - 01:10:52:09 Giles Brook So if you go to America at the moment, what's really trending? You going to Starbucks in the US, people go buy, you know, they'll have a kind of flat white or kind of a latte can have a bone broth to go, please. So all the coffee shops in New York are now doing bone broth to go, because that's that's your health kick right. 01:10:52:10 - 01:11:13:13 Giles Brook Go inside it. Yeah. Yeah. So but what we also have is we also have powdered bone broth because it's absolute crammed with I mean it's a bone broth is crammed with amino acids. It's very high protein. And it's obviously got collagen with it. So you know a good, good slug, you know, like a third of the business is actually the powders alongside the liquids and people like. 01:11:13:15 - 01:11:40:07 Giles Brook But so if you think we've got the food division which is the liquids, but then we've got the, the supplements division. And actually if you look at some of like perfect head, it's not, not a different. They've got obviously the product and the energy drink in the cam. They then got the match powder and people are like using the powder to put it in a smoothie or you know, or whatever, you know, taking it as a supplement and you're bringing in a completely different consumer set, but, you know, very similar states, but providing the product or the natural ingredient in the, you know, in a format that works for the consumer. 01:11:40:09 - 01:11:58:19 Giles Brook And that's working incredibly well. So, you know, there are times in a business where, yes, there are closer categories to go to because supplements versus food, you might argue, could be slightly further away than me going between, you know, I'm going to go into like I gave you earlier, we got cereal and we're going to cereal bars because they're obviously closer. 01:11:58:21 - 01:12:04:05 Giles Brook Yeah, but still are exactly the right thing to do. And that phrase is a great example of that. Is flying. 01:12:04:07 - 01:12:24:06 Dan Let's in terms of that that this war period, I think it's just it's such an it because retrospectively it makes so much, so much sense. What was the hardest part of that period? Like almost like when you're in pain, sleepless nights and like, would, would you want your kids to go through that period? 01:12:24:08 - 01:12:44:23 Giles Brook I mean, look. In through what I did with bear and by Coco, I had 12 years where nobody saw me write a six and a half days a week. I remember, you know, I remember going on holiday with Penny and Penny and the kids and Penny be like, it'd be three in the afternoon. You get to come out the hotel room, right? 01:12:45:00 - 01:13:05:13 Giles Brook And it was a necessary evil, because that's what it took to be successful on those brands. But what I did know, though, is that there was a period of time where that was acceptable and not acceptable. So it was it was brutal. But I loved doing it. I know it needed doing. But I also knew that, you know, my kids were very young back in those days. 01:13:05:15 - 01:13:22:06 Giles Brook But what it also enabled to me do is like, if you look now, today, you know, Dan, is that I have a platform whereby, yeah, I still I'm never going to retire. Right. You probably see sort person I'm the energy I've got and stuff like that. I love what I do but I the my life works in the following way which is the number one thing is family. 01:13:22:06 - 01:13:37:24 Giles Brook So the first thing to kind of do when all the kids have got sports fiction stuff. So I am the dad. He's quietly sitting on the touchline every Wednesday or every Saturday watching my boys, the playing, you know, rugby, cricket, hockey, whatever it is. I just love the next. I want to see, I want to see them. So that comes in. 01:13:37:24 - 01:13:54:19 Giles Brook Secondly, fitness is, you know, with me that's that that comes that's the second thing in the diary. So all my training and stuff. So no board meetings on a Wednesday. Why. Because that's when I go biking with all the guys I train with. Can you not change it? Nope. Because that's important. And the third thing that work goes in and I now work about three, three and a half days a week, right. 01:13:54:19 - 01:13:56:19 Dan So go hard on those days. Yeah. 01:13:56:19 - 01:14:08:08 Giles Brook And I actually, you know, my, my boys are ten and 13. And for the last three, four years, you know, I'm very lucky that I probably spend more time with my kids than any other parent does. 01:14:08:10 - 01:14:10:22 Dan That I want them to go through that, that period of time. 01:14:10:23 - 01:14:12:01 Giles Brook Sorry. That's what you actually asked me. 01:14:12:01 - 01:14:12:18 Dan Also, because it's like. 01:14:12:19 - 01:14:13:06 Giles Brook So I think. 01:14:13:07 - 01:14:17:08 Dan Because that's that's what character building is. It's like that's what the paying teachers, the lessons. Right? 01:14:17:08 - 01:14:35:24 Giles Brook Yeah. I mean, I'm sorry, if you ask me, the number one thing that keeps me awake at night, right, is, you know, I've been very fortunate in life. You do need a lot of luck along the way. Has a lot of skill and hard graft. Right. But all things. Unless Penny and I go to Vegas and lose the lot, there's a chance to be a decent amount of money left for the boys. 01:14:36:01 - 01:14:53:09 Giles Brook The no. One thing keeps you awake at night. Night, night. Is that. Is that how. How does that money get passed into the boys? Right? It doesn't ruin them. But more importantly, the boys have got to learn what growth is in life. So, yes, I do want my boys to go through it. I'm not. I'm not one of the. 01:14:53:14 - 01:15:03:01 Giles Brook So, you know, for example. Yeah, we've kept we had a way to house in, in South Wales. We've kept that. And because, you know, trying to get kids, trying to get the property ladder these days I'm. 01:15:03:05 - 01:15:04:10 Dan Living at home at the minute. 01:15:04:10 - 01:15:16:21 Giles Brook Yeah, it's a joke. It's an absolute joke. Somebody has to be done about it, by the way. But that's that's for another time. But, you know, we've kept, a small place down in Wimbledon because I think that's what I want for the boys to have. So they'll get help on that sort of stuff. 01:15:16:21 - 01:15:18:03 Dan But that. Were you were living in. Yeah. 01:15:18:06 - 01:15:34:02 Giles Brook Okay. Yeah, but they'll have to pay a rent for it. They'll have to pay the bills. An important. I want them to go on a career. I think the big thing I, you know, and again, it may sound funny, but, you know, I even talk to them. Nice. Ten and 13 year olds. I talk to them today about what is your passion in life? 01:15:34:02 - 01:15:53:00 Giles Brook What do you enjoy doing? Right. Because the number one thing I'm going to say to me is I want them to take a career path that they love doing, and they're passionate about me going into food and drink. Oh, really? I should say consumer goods. It's more consumer goods rather than food and drink. I'm very lucky because I've done something I absolutely love, something that, you know, inspires me, invigorates me every single day. 01:15:53:02 - 01:16:08:19 Giles Brook I do expect my kids, though, to have to go through a really tough time because you just don't. You don't learn your life lessons if not on them. You know, I think it sounds weird, but, you know, we I see it in what I do now with them and stuff like that. We do we do a lot of stuff with them, even at ten and 13. 01:16:08:19 - 01:16:15:16 Giles Brook And you know, I definitely want, you know, there's times when I can see they're not comfortable, but I'm happy with that because they've got to go through some of the pain and, life experiences. 01:16:15:18 - 01:16:31:21 Dan This is you can tell me to fuck off on this question, but like, how much? What was the biggest exit you you did like, how much money did you make and how did that change you? Because it's like it's it's nothing like people, as you say. It's this exit Eldorado, this call that they think like, what happens when you actually get the fucking gold. 01:16:31:21 - 01:16:33:21 Dan Yeah. What I mean, yeah, yeah. 01:16:33:23 - 01:16:49:13 Giles Brook I mean yeah. So I think I've said this and before number of podcast which is and and people are like oh yeah, it's it's very easy if you say that John sat here but you know the first exit I was bad right. Yeah. And that was, that was several million. Right. That was a good that was a good exit. 01:16:49:15 - 01:16:50:06 Dan 7 million. 01:16:50:06 - 01:17:07:12 Giles Brook Seven seven. Yeah. I don't you know, I don't talk I don't talk money. And the reason being is that it's actually not that important to me. And also I don't know, I just think want to say vulgar, but I just think sometimes I just feel like. 01:17:07:14 - 01:17:21:11 Giles Brook That money's great, but it's not everything, right? And it's more importantly, it's not what motivates me personally. And so. But I've got a big third right on in the bank account, and I generally didn't know what to do with myself. And I did the most stupid thing I've ever done. Right? 01:17:21:13 - 01:17:22:24 Dan Right. Vegas. 01:17:23:01 - 01:17:38:15 Giles Brook No, we're not stupid, but I like but this but this was the thing. So we we we we spend a lot of time in Majorca, and I have a house in Majorca. So again, that don't get me wrong, what's happened is facilitated that. And that's as much home for us as the UK now. But I remember when Palma, the main city and I've never had a nice watch. 01:17:38:15 - 01:17:55:12 Giles Brook So I went and bought myself and I make a watch, you know, it's dark side of the moon. Lovely watch. It's not on. I've got a garment on. But now it's all the way. This, this, this is a good example, right? I'm on this watch for three years. And I had a panic attack coming up shop. I was like, want to buying a watch? 01:17:55:12 - 01:18:13:22 Giles Brook I don't need a watch. How can I spend a few thousand on a watch? I don't need that. And that was a big thing for me. It's a big, like 30 in the bank count. And I didn't mean it. Just like I don't need it. That's not what motivates me. Kind of building brands, enjoying the journey, being a thorn in the corporate side, creating positive change. 01:18:14:01 - 01:18:37:12 Giles Brook You know, particularly as opposed to change the environment and sustainability side. Obviously, you know, 65% of my portfolio, 80% of my portfolio of a B Corp certified, you know, 6% female founded now, they're the things that excite me and what I enjoy. And that's I get more out of life. You know that side I think so I've, I mean, I've had I mean that's that's the other thing as well for me done is that people do what I do. 01:18:37:12 - 01:18:56:12 Giles Brook So you I again I hate terminology, but people classify me like a angel investor or high net worth or whatever. And they'll say, oh, typically what you'll do is that, you know, you normally do ten investments and if one come off, it's all good. I don't agree with that. So of my 18 today, I had five successful exits. 01:18:56:14 - 01:19:19:06 Giles Brook I would hope I can get at least ten, if not 12 of those 18 to get to exit, because I think if you're if you prepared to put time in so I don't I get my hands dirty and I'm an anonymous at capacity. I really jump in and do everything I can to help the businesses. If you pick carefully and pick and carefully about, first of all with the founder, then get in the right category, in the right brand. 01:19:19:08 - 01:19:33:13 Giles Brook I think you can really change those percentages that people say, like the 1 in 10. I think you can get, you know, a much higher probability. And that's what motivates me and excites me. It's not the cash. The cash is the cash is great. But that's not the motivation is. 01:19:33:13 - 01:19:50:10 Dan Will Chase has got the best line for this. And he's obviously exited a couple of times with Terrell's and then Chase's areas. When you're in the winner's enclosure, you realize that all the fun in the race and that's like, that's that's a truism. I want to talk about, like kind of addiction and an obsession because, I mean, I've got I've got a hugely addictive personality, right? 01:19:50:10 - 01:19:51:00 Dan So like. 01:19:51:02 - 01:19:52:01 Giles Brook Who has an ace, a founder? 01:19:52:01 - 01:20:06:07 Dan Oh, this is what I'm just what I'm trying to work out. Right. So I remember I went like in my 20s, I was fucking partying loads like staying up all weekend, like just sending it. And it was like obviously just loads of insecurities. I was basically blanketing with booze and drugs and partying and stuff, and it was me. 01:20:06:09 - 01:20:07:06 Giles Brook And you're one of many, right? 01:20:07:06 - 01:20:19:01 Dan Yeah, yeah, one of many. And it was. Anyway, so I went to go and see a therapist to see what was going up, up in the box. Right. And he was like, mate, within 17 seconds of meeting on you, you were and you're an addict as okay. Well, like, you've got to kind of work with what you've got. 01:20:19:01 - 01:20:33:14 Dan Right. So then I stopped also the partying. I still do drink, but like it's, it's it's way less than what it was like. I've probably done six months off this year. Total. But my addiction is just gone straight into this. Yeah I'm like addicted to it. 01:20:33:14 - 01:20:34:12 Giles Brook And on channel eight right? Yeah. 01:20:34:12 - 01:20:50:05 Dan It's my channel it and it's but I love that's when you saying that you were in a hotel in Majorca. And it's like the gorgeous vistas in the sunshine. You're just grafting, grafting yourself to the bone. Like, how have you got better at dealing with that? Because I think you say I'm a transplant at it. Like I see. 01:20:50:07 - 01:20:59:05 Dan And I also think in business it's great to say you're obsessed. Obsessed is great in business. But you say you're an addict in business. You know, obsession addiction is one of two sides of the same coin. 01:20:59:05 - 01:21:04:00 Giles Brook If I was an addict in business, I'd be doing another pair of like, okay, I'd just be going on to the next thing. Next gig. 01:21:04:00 - 01:21:10:08 Dan Next. How did you ease off that you something? I'm. 01:21:10:10 - 01:21:11:14 Giles Brook I think there's a few bits to it. 01:21:11:19 - 01:21:12:06 Dan Yeah. 01:21:12:08 - 01:21:30:08 Giles Brook I think one is what sustainable is and I've, you know, innocent. I burnt myself out, had some panic attacks at innocent. I was just I was just I was just, I basically innocent was a great business. Very high pressure to work in that. I was also in a nightclub at 3 a.m.. Three nights a week. 01:21:30:10 - 01:21:31:06 Dan Yeah. Yeah, I. 01:21:31:06 - 01:21:45:22 Giles Brook Was also training six days a week. Can't let somebody get you a tap on the shoulder. The guys. Not enough. So I took that myself on manifesting. You all suddenly had a panic attack. I just just didn't. I was just up. What's going on here? I am, I'm a control freak like me. Yeah, that was a big problem back then. 01:21:46:01 - 01:22:03:17 Giles Brook But it's the best thing that can happen because, you know, going back to what you're saying earlier about, you know, you said, you know, you said you're addictive. Personally, I think there's no such thing as a normal person. Right? We've all got a certain a bit of control illness or a addictiveness or attention deficit, but it's just where we sit on the spectrum. 01:22:03:17 - 01:22:05:18 Dan Everyone's on the Speccy on some some it's not. 01:22:05:19 - 01:22:23:21 Giles Brook Yeah, I know, I think normal should be actually banned out and dictionary. I think it's the worst word in the world. Like there's no such thing as no normal. Right. But you know, as you get I guess I've mellowed as I've got older. Right. But for me, one of the biggest levels for me is kids. Right? 01:22:23:23 - 01:22:41:11 Giles Brook So, for example, if you look at my triathlon racing, yes, I still train a lot, but I don't race as anywhere near as much as I used to because I enjoy racing abroad, because I love going to different places and stuff like that. I race about 30%. Well, I used to. Why? Because I don't want to be away from my kids and actually I'm no longer the priority. 01:22:41:13 - 01:22:59:16 Giles Brook My boys are the priority and Penny, my wife's the priority. And that's and we always talk about my immediate family nucleus is the priority. Right. And I think that that's the big thing for me, which is both in business and to get where I got to in triathlon, which, let's be honest, wasn't an amazing standard, but for me was quite a good standard. 01:22:59:18 - 01:23:19:04 Giles Brook I had to be really selfish because if I wasn't selfish, the business wouldn't have succeeded or whatever. But it's now not my time anymore. It's actually more about the people around me and that's not just my family. It's also the founders and the other businesses I work with. You know, some of the founders I mentioned to you earlier, you know, I don't give a crap if I take any money out. 01:23:19:05 - 01:23:31:15 Giles Brook I just want to see those guys succeed because some of those guys, just the the people in the characters they are or the monumental shift they're putting in, I need and want them to be successful for themselves because they, you know, did they deserve to be. 01:23:31:17 - 01:23:47:12 Dan Take me to that because I'm 31 now, so take me to when you were 31 like I, I think it's great you've got this. But you also you've got to graft your fucking tits off as well. Like how what was your day like your brain like in that period when you were just at the coalface? Like slamming it every day, like, yeah. 01:23:47:16 - 01:24:01:23 Giles Brook My challenge was I've always struggled to switch off. Right? Yes. Same. And that's the big thing. And my, my biggest issue is quality of sleep. And even today is it's quite an issue because I'm just I'm a thinker and I'm a just, you know, I will always get more done in a day than most people get done in a week. 01:24:01:23 - 01:24:17:10 Giles Brook But that's just me, right? But I've just, you know, I've I've dialed it down. I found different ways to do it. You know, it's like, you know, I don't I don't hardly drink at all. I, the only time you get me to drink these days is like, I've got a good friends 50th coming up in a few weeks time in London and he's put a big effort of a party. 01:24:17:12 - 01:24:33:18 Giles Brook I'll probably come out of drink retirement for there and have one good night. So I wouldn't call myself teetotal. But equally, you know, I don't drink much, these days. You know, I don't have caffeine in my diet. But be clear, I'm not living a monk existence. I'm happier the person I am today and what I do today. 01:24:33:18 - 01:24:50:17 Giles Brook Because I think I've got the. It's about balance, right? And all I've done is that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly like I've just shifted more towards the middle, right? Or else I've taken the really silly weights off the end and just put some small weights on the end. Right. Whichever way you want to look at, whichever analogy, Trevor, analogy, analogy. 01:24:50:17 - 01:25:05:18 Giles Brook Because sometimes it's actually the reason I give that analogy. Sometimes it's if I want people to shift away from the ends, but well, you know, taking a barbell analogy, it might be easier for them to drop the weight on the end to stay on the extremes, but just drop the weight on the end, right? Because if you're not, you know. 01:25:05:23 - 01:25:15:16 Dan Yes, that's what I've said. For example, on Friday. So I've done these teetotal periods. Yeah. And then I'll go to my beta and then it's just on to spend all my fucking money and it's stupid. Yeah. And I'm just like, you. 01:25:15:16 - 01:25:18:24 Giles Brook Are 31. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I enjoy it. Right? Yeah I know they're not. 01:25:19:00 - 01:25:29:22 Dan But then I was like I was like, why? And that's taking the things off the weights off ever so slightly. So it's like went out Friday, got very drunk but then didn't drink Saturday. Sunday. Yeah. Whereas before it be like start. 01:25:29:22 - 01:25:30:15 Giles Brook Went right through. 01:25:30:16 - 01:25:32:02 Dan And then you just it's it's. 01:25:32:04 - 01:25:32:23 Giles Brook You scraping it on. 01:25:32:23 - 01:25:42:09 Dan Wednesday on booze on Wednesday to Sunday first on Thursday, you know and it's and it's I what I'm trying to do is I've done the, the extreme I've done the, you know all on off on off. 01:25:42:09 - 01:26:11:18 Giles Brook It's like but like families isn't it. Founders or endurance athletes etc. they're all Type-A, right? All do everything to extremes. Right. And that's the thing, the, the hard thing to say is I don't think you can be successful unless you are that type of person, or it's more difficult to be successful unless you're that type of person. But you've got to understand about on a ratchet of 0 to 10 at different periods of time, what's the right level to be at different phases of time? 01:26:11:23 - 01:26:39:09 Giles Brook That's what it's about doing. And you know, I am. I know in the last 5 or 7 years, I've completely changed a lot of the dials on the different aspects of my life across personal time, work time, fitness and stuff. Not got the balance completely right. Yeah, but I'm pretty happy where everything is at the moment. And also, I'll be honest with you, I much prefer the person I am today than I was 1020 years ago. 01:26:39:11 - 01:26:51:22 Giles Brook Yeah, I think it's high octane, was just full tilt and stuff like that. And I prefer, I prefer the person that, you know, there will be some people that will say, oh, Charles isn't as much fun as he used to be, or, you know, just, you know, cos he's just, you know, I think he just needs to chill out a bit. 01:26:51:22 - 01:27:08:16 Giles Brook Not all these triathlons have, but that's my passion. That's what I love doing and actually got huge friend network through through it, through all that. We go racing you know, we go broaden it. I, you know, I have so many friends through that and you know, do that and or equally wherever possible. Now I'm going to take my family to everyone racing. 01:27:08:16 - 01:27:37:03 Giles Brook And guess what? My kids now do the triathlons as well. Their choice. Not me for sure. I'm not I'm not. Push it out is going get on that start line, is it? Jump in some ocean and get swam over by another 20, you know, 20, 20 kids or whatever it is. But I think I think what I'd say on this podcast is that everybody's got to do a bit soul searching, forget what everybody else is telling you, you know, forget trying to be everything to everybody. 01:27:37:05 - 01:27:54:22 Giles Brook Work out for whatever period of life you're at. What's going to make you happy? Yes. Right, right. Happiness does not necessarily equal success or equal money or stuff like that. And it might be for some people. Right. And, you know, some of the macro acts and we've seen them on these big massive corporate companies, it's just it's all about the coin in the, about about the money for them. 01:27:54:22 - 01:28:16:18 Giles Brook Right. But you know, whether it's talking about me or talking about you down, you know, it's that kind of going on that journey to say, right, what do I want on my life? What, what? Yeah, what my passions, what I want to do, what I want to enjoy. I'm just going after that. And, you know, it's just I think it's where people get it so wrong because they spend all their time looking at everybody else in the whole situations. 01:28:16:18 - 01:28:18:00 Giles Brook And it just it's just nuts. 01:28:18:04 - 01:28:34:10 Dan Yeah. The coin, the coin is such a such a sort of vista and, illusory thing in the distance. I want to go back to kind of what we, what that, that when everything was hanging by a thread with one of those exits and kind of just will wrap up. Yeah. Yeah. Because you've started to stop very. Yeah. 01:28:34:12 - 01:28:48:09 Dan I, we always go round like this is the, the value of this. Yeah. I like to go all over the place, but I'd love to go back to that and then we can begin to wrap this up. But yeah, that moment when it's all hanging by a thread. You say you don't sleep at night. Like what the thoughts going through? 01:28:48:09 - 01:28:55:17 Dan Why is it hanging by a thread like tapers into that into into your bedroom at night and what's going on in your soul. You know. 01:28:55:19 - 01:28:58:06 Giles Brook Yeah. I mean. 01:28:58:08 - 01:29:00:19 Dan I think first, why was it hanging by a thread that she gives me? Yeah. 01:29:00:19 - 01:29:16:04 Giles Brook I mean in the early days. Right. So yeah, actually let me also say definitely the so what used to me, what used to make me lose sleep at night was I was always worried about what other people were thinking about the job I was doing and what. Yeah, you know, I was doing it. And I quickly realized, screw everybody else. 01:29:16:05 - 01:29:31:22 Giles Brook This is about me and actually about my immediate family and then everything else. Once I got that room, got that real sorted out. Life wasn't great, right? Because I was always worried about trying to call it people. Please, would I ever try and do the best job for everybody else when I'm like, no, actually, I'm going to start doing it, you know, for me and me and the family, right? 01:29:31:22 - 01:29:52:06 Giles Brook So I think that was the first thing I think hanging by a thread, I mean, look. The bad deal went through. We were quite lucky actually. But even then when you think you've got an incredible business watching people drop out of process, it's pretty scary. And again, my biggest advice I say to founders is say, look, everybody say I can be a classic example here today. 01:29:52:06 - 01:29:56:05 Giles Brook People will go, I'm not selling to private equity or venture capitalists. I'm definitely a. 01:29:56:10 - 01:30:09:10 Dan Three year old, but thrilled. Yeah. Can you what's the difference between private equity venture capitalists M&A? Because, you know, Tim from Rothschild threw this out for me of the day. It's not is it is quite nebulous unless you're in that world. As I say, it's a different sort of, yeah. 01:30:09:10 - 01:30:27:13 Giles Brook So like some institutional capital. Yeah. Right. Which is basically people who have funds, some of the family offices, some I just raise money off different, different different sources. You know, again, I don't know the exact definitions, but just call it private equity. Venture capital are just, you know, they are funds where they've got money to invest into businesses. 01:30:27:19 - 01:30:41:04 Giles Brook Well, typically, you know, so private equity is more about three years looking to return the money in three years. Not a look to basically try and triple the money in three years. But it's a cost of borrowing. They're even now talking about four times in the money in three years, because that's the sort of return that they need for investors. 01:30:41:04 - 01:30:54:14 Giles Brook Right. So you've got peer. But so if you think about private equity or venture capitalists, you'll sell a business to them. But typically you will the management team stay on as part of that journey. But they want to flip it for the next. 01:30:54:16 - 01:30:55:05 Dan That's venture. 01:30:55:05 - 01:31:13:10 Giles Brook Capital. Yeah I'm private equity. Typically I'll come in. They'll buy the business or a significant minority or a majority stake, and they'll now flip it again in three years. Again, it's not 100% that rule, but a lot of funds. And actually some of the financial regulations mean that they have to operate in certain ways. So again, I'm no massive expert in that. 01:31:13:10 - 01:31:27:09 Giles Brook But but typically what that means though is that you are on the under the pump a lot because they have they have investors that they have got to return the money for. They'll have somebody sits on the board. They normally have some really bright young kid who's normally sat there asking you questions the week, the date. 01:31:27:10 - 01:31:29:18 Dan Well, you know what they like. Yeah. 01:31:29:20 - 01:31:50:07 Giles Brook And I understand why because the stakes are high for them. So, you know, when you look for an exit, there's various things you've got obviously an institutional exit which is proactive venture capital, but that typically means that you are exiting or realizing some value. But you're actually most a management team or you're as founder are more likely to have to play a journey on the next part or next stage. 01:31:50:07 - 01:31:52:07 Giles Brook The journey will then get flipped again. 01:31:52:09 - 01:31:54:13 Dan And that's when they keep the founder on. Yeah, not. 01:31:54:13 - 01:32:00:13 Giles Brook Always, but at the time, yeah, more often. It's interesting. You know, you talked earlier about sometimes you'll have a founder an MD comes in. 01:32:00:15 - 01:32:01:03 Dan Yeah. 01:32:01:05 - 01:32:15:20 Giles Brook If an MD is an outstanding job. And actually the founders got to a stage where they can't take the business any further, that's where you'll typically see a founder exit in that scenario. Yeah. Sometimes, you know, they'll keep them on just because they'll take a view that actually it's important they still associated with the business, but it's very much. 01:32:15:21 - 01:32:16:17 Dan Magic isn't it. Yeah. 01:32:16:18 - 01:32:37:10 Giles Brook It's very much circumstantial. So you've got an institutional exit which is private equity venture capital. And again, that can't just have to be 100%. That could be stage as well. It could be like an earn out over X years. And that's another thing to say is that these days virtually all exits on a stage basis. So you'll typically sell the business or sell a part of the business for initial consideration or initial amounts. 01:32:37:12 - 01:32:59:02 Giles Brook But then you have targets over one, two, three, four, or five year periods and unlocks the rest of your earn out. With goes 100% sales. So again, I can talk about it because I've been public domain is look at someone like Sir Thomas who again lovely guy sold mama to AG Barr first stage and then three years later, is any of the papers that he that. 01:32:59:06 - 01:33:20:15 Giles Brook And then they've bought the rest of the shares. A mama now is a complete exit. So that would be example of that. Right. So you've got institutional money, you've then got trade sale. Right. So that's what that example I just gave you a manner that where you've got a big corporate or big food and drink or big consumer goods company, or consortium will buy you and then you've got an exit there. 01:33:20:17 - 01:33:29:04 Giles Brook But also there's a third exit, which is one that we took via Coco where we floated it, we IPO the business on the Nasdaq in the US. Rare. 01:33:29:04 - 01:33:30:08 Dan Right. 01:33:30:10 - 01:33:46:24 Giles Brook It it is, but it's like it's rare. But again, if you talk about hanging by a thread, it's but it's very interesting because when you look at the Coco journey and again I want to be careful here because I don't want to talk out of turn here because, you know, I headed up Europe and played a big role. 01:33:46:24 - 01:33:56:00 Giles Brook But equally, my Carnera and others were the founders. So they're probably better to talk to me about this. But we came very close to selling that business on a number of occasions. 01:33:56:00 - 01:34:12:08 Giles Brook But what's really interesting is, is that I'm a big believer in fate. Right. And I also think good things happen to good people. And you know, my canary, you know, and also a lot of I mean, one of the beautiful things about like Coco, it's just full of great people. 01:34:12:08 - 01:34:33:16 Giles Brook Right. And that's what the fun, fun and business is important. Right? That's the number one mantra. You've got to have fun in business. And I'm a big believer in fate. And I you know, even though that they were at the time, you know, I can remember being with Mike, we had also another problem in London. We came over with another transaction and there's a big fall out and it fell apart and there and I remember having, you know, having a beer with Mike afterwards and just like head in the hands going, what are we doing wrong? 01:34:33:16 - 01:34:35:04 Giles Brook Are we just we jinxed here. 01:34:35:06 - 01:34:52:15 Dan That's nothing I've no no one really talks about enough is how many deals don't go through like we've just got our family friend who's just about. We literally went for drinks to celebrate the exit, and that's what. Yeah, I have done the halving block list, guys. I used to. Yeah. Was that we were like, we're, you know, the batsmen pass me the fucking oranges. 01:34:52:15 - 01:35:04:13 Dan Let's have some tequila. And then and then the next thing gets the Monday and the deal's off. I know, and it's just like. And then it's back to square one. It's like, how many, how many deals do you think? What's what's the capacity to deal to deal with? 01:35:04:13 - 01:35:09:08 Giles Brook I would say 95% of deals fall through. Wow. 01:35:09:10 - 01:35:14:05 Dan What happens is like what's what? Why is there anything brands can do to protect themselves of that? 01:35:14:05 - 01:35:29:22 Giles Brook Or just do a whole podcast on that? Right? I mean, it just is so circumstantial. Yeah, it can be different races. It can be characters in the business. Suddenly it just doesn't click for them. All the deals done. But then they're going to take it to the group, board. Now we don't like that. But this, you know, this division, the food and drink division want to buy it. 01:35:29:22 - 01:35:53:04 Giles Brook But the guys at the group board know I want it to happen. Or else they announced the city latest results aren't quite good enough, actually. We're pulling we're pulling the acquisition because we need to. We're going to redirect the funds elsewhere. There's so many different nuances of what can happen. But just going back to that, but I can't our stories that the is are rare, but a lot of people do it right. 01:35:53:06 - 01:36:19:06 Giles Brook It is very expensive to IPO business, particularly in America, but the reason I believe in fate is if you now look at Vitaco because we floated at $16 today via Coco is the it's the highest leading performing beverage stock on the whole the American stock Exchange right. It's continually results. It's a record high at the moment. So it's more than so for shareholders and investors who've come in since the launch. 01:36:19:06 - 01:36:44:20 Giles Brook It was at $16. It's nothing. It closed last night. Last night at $36.28 or something like that. And it's high has been $37, which was, which was two weeks ago. So it's it's done an incredible job, you know, so everybody says it's a good idea to float a business. Yes it is. But again, again, if I was to talk to like a Fever-Tree or an Oatly or be on meet all who floated. 01:36:44:22 - 01:37:07:17 Giles Brook But that share prices are all down. You know, fever-tree not as much these days, but if you look at like an Oatly or a I am on meet that down, I think people are lost like 97% of their value because they're down at like 3% the original share price. So it's not you know, the bottom line is if you're going to float a business, this is in my mind, if you're going to float a business, you have to know that every single quarter you can hit your numbers. 01:37:07:19 - 01:37:24:18 Giles Brook You have to hit your earnings right, which is obviously your bottom line. You're perfectly as soon as you have one wobbly quarter share price just plummets. So you've got to have what I mean by that is you've got to have a stable go and go on to an onto the stock market, but know that you've got a stable enough business. 01:37:24:20 - 01:37:37:10 Giles Brook You can pretty much know your numbers the whole time, because if you're if you've got a really volatile business, the market doesn't tolerate the ups and downs as much as a private a private owner would do. 01:37:37:12 - 01:37:58:11 Dan When you get to that exit, El Dorado Goose, I call it like where the gold lies. What are some of the things founders can or not? Even founders, just like operators or anyone in the business. Like what the things that they probably you they don't think about but should be thinking about, you know, and because you've gone through many of these processes like what are the you know, he talks about earlier about how to care for brand, which would be like the. 01:37:58:13 - 01:37:59:04 Giles Brook The number one thing. 01:37:59:04 - 01:38:00:05 Dan Is one is. 01:38:00:07 - 01:38:20:11 Giles Brook Be able to demonstrate how strong your brand is. The number one thing. Yeah, yeah. Two is make sure you've got both good growth which I call the compound compounded annual growth rate and EBITDA. So have the balance between between the two between now three. Make sure you if you've got a portfolio you know make sure you've got absolute heroes in certain categories. 01:38:20:11 - 01:38:38:02 Giles Brook It's like if you're selling a business, if you came to me and said, right, I've got a business that's worth that's turning over 30 million across six categories, or I've got businesses turning over 20, 25,000,000 in 2 categories. I almost guarantee you the business is doing 2020 5,000,000 in 2 categories is worth more than that. One doing 30,000,000 in 6 categories. 01:38:38:02 - 01:39:02:07 Giles Brook Yeah, 35 million. 40 million. Yeah. So you know, being a hero, being a lead brand. And when I say lead, by the way doesn't have to be mean. You're the biggest. Right. If you are leading growth or winning on consumer surveys. And I give you a good example of this. Take Pippa Nut for example. For me, I think that's the leading brand in nut butters at the moment, just overtaking Meridian, but not quite as big as whole Earth. 01:39:02:07 - 01:39:21:13 Giles Brook And you might have seen how has got bought bought the other way. But so you know, it's about you're on that trajectory and actually you can get to being, you know, you're the fastest growing, you've got the scale. You might not be at number one, but somebody is excited because they feel it's about whatever it is. What do you think about if anybody's going to buy you the you know, particularly corporates, right. 01:39:21:15 - 01:39:38:05 Giles Brook Taking you from like I can I'm plucking numbers here. So he from 20 to 50 million isn't enough for these guys. Most of these guys need to have 100 150, 200 million brand in their portfolio. So when they're buying you they have to have a view. So when young boon young and Isabel from Lotus bought bear or young. 01:39:38:06 - 01:39:53:23 Giles Brook So we had this bikes, we had pools and stuff and baby and I'm really excited about alphabets and it a young said, look, don't be too rude. Can you just talk to me about yo yos? How do I make yo yos? Which is, you know, you're telling me it's them one kid snack and it's the number one lunchbox item in the UK. 01:39:54:00 - 01:40:10:20 Giles Brook How do I mate? You're doing 20 million on that at the moment. How do I make that hundred million in the UK? Can that's. Can we just talk about. That's nothing else. And he's done this exactly the same because you know Biscoff and the speculator which is all that whole thing. And again talk about how you innovate brilliantly with any I mean Lotus is a great case study for people to use. 01:40:10:22 - 01:40:26:21 Giles Brook You know, he has, I don't know, 30 brands in the Lotus family, but I can tell you about 90% of the focus goes on the Biscoff brand. Right? That's all they worry about is the Biscoff brand because it's so powerful and strong. And that's what I mean. So you have to have a brand be able to demonstrate that your brand has the potential to go to that level. 01:40:26:23 - 01:40:35:21 Giles Brook Other other things to look at is show the brand can travel. So if you're only one category and you've gone into a second category and it's doing really well. So for example, buyer me, we've gone into. 01:40:35:23 - 01:40:37:20 Dan So I went into those stuffed bars. 01:40:37:20 - 01:40:39:12 Giles Brook Yeah exactly that. Yeah. We'll be. 01:40:39:14 - 01:40:41:14 Dan Innovating close to the core but also in a different. 01:40:41:15 - 01:40:59:12 Giles Brook Way. Buying me is going to buy me is going to serial but also gone into into into yogurts and drinks. Great example there. And people are saying well I'll make quite a fantastic yes no but but gut health obviously we've got in cereals but actually the heritage of Gaia was is in dairy. Right. Because if you go back to the year do you remember that everybody. 01:40:59:14 - 01:41:01:12 Dan Everybody every year. Yeah. 01:41:01:13 - 01:41:18:08 Giles Brook Every fridge originally. Now every fridge had a Yakult or an atom a limited amount in the 80s, 90s and 2000. Yeah, yeah. I literally I remember as a kid, boom, I could an all nighter in the morning. Yeah. And particularly when you go to continental Europe like in France, for every, for every one meter of the UK, we had to have a yogurt space. 01:41:18:08 - 01:41:32:17 Giles Brook They have three meters, they have three times more space in the supermarket. So if you can get things like the dairy side right in those continental European markets, huge upside. But also there's a lot of players like you take a Danone or something like that. That'd be very exciting in that, you know, in that sort of business. 01:41:32:17 - 01:41:38:02 Dan So, so that's so that's the other thing is how important is it to think reverse engineer of who you're going to sell to? 01:41:38:03 - 01:41:38:14 Giles Brook Totally. 01:41:38:14 - 01:41:40:01 Dan Yeah. Yeah. So who to say. 01:41:40:04 - 01:41:59:05 Giles Brook Can I give you the best example of that one. Right. Let me go back to my innocent days. And I think, I think I think the boys would be okay me saying this, but which is so this is sometimes where I and I think I mentioned this this year for you and I sat down chat. You might have at some point a conflict between what's right for the consumer and what's right for to get you successful exit. 01:41:59:08 - 01:42:20:03 Giles Brook And let me explain that. Right. So act innocent. We had in which day of the week you were looking at an which whether we're fighting it with, with the government and HMRC smoothly gave you one a year or two year, five a day, right, for portions of fruit. So let's just say we were 2 to 5 a day and we spent a lot of money fighting that. 01:42:20:05 - 01:42:45:21 Giles Brook Somebody innocent came up. Genius. Because you remember taking the government back. You remember the fight get, you know, get your five a day. We're going to create better pots. I'm going to create reg pots. I'm going to do three portions of veggie in there. So how good is this as a consumer that, you get two of your five a day on your fruit smoothie and you get the veggie pot three you'll five a day, you got five, five a day, three innocent. 01:42:45:21 - 01:43:04:22 Giles Brook So you just buy a a smoothie, you know, your five a day high fives. Everybody's going genius. Absolute brilliant. So we launch fresh pots. It's like challenging short shelf life similar blah blah blah upset. Brilliant. So I can't remember exact numbers, but let's just say back then we were turning over 120 million of which veggie pots was, I don't know, 810 million. 01:43:04:24 - 01:43:27:05 Giles Brook Brilliant. However, when it came to looking to sell that business. Okay, there were some exceptions, but 90% of people are interested in innocent. We're going to be a beverage operator. So when Coke came in and did the deal, they valued the business, but they virtually put a line through veggie pots and said, that's our strategy for us. We're a beverage company. 01:43:27:07 - 01:43:44:14 Giles Brook So actually the 10 million didn't really get any value. It might have got a one times revenue. I don't even think it got that. And what happened with that was veggie pox got retired and Paul Brown got it for free and launched balls. Yeah. Right. So that's an example there. I'm just using that example there to say look consumer. 01:43:44:16 - 01:43:44:24 Giles Brook Well that's. 01:43:44:24 - 01:43:48:17 Dan Right. And with but my actual talk about it I cut this out. But 01:43:48:17 - 01:43:50:14 Dan they, they basically executed for fuck all 01:43:50:14 - 01:43:53:00 Dan you've done all that work actually. 01:43:53:02 - 01:44:10:20 Giles Brook And this is what it's about. I mean, master of a category and doing exactly that. And this is a big thing for me, which is you will sometimes come back inside. It doesn't mean actually, because it depends on, you know, if you're actually thinking, well, actually, I might still sell that business to VC or private equity or else actually my kids might take that business over or whatever. 01:44:11:00 - 01:44:16:00 Giles Brook But if you're looking for a clean trade exit, you've got to think very carefully about those dynamics. 01:44:16:02 - 01:44:18:21 Dan So there's no I sort speaking to a million. 01:44:18:23 - 01:44:21:03 Giles Brook Is it's Amelia, Bobby. 01:44:21:05 - 01:44:24:12 Dan Money and you know, they're they're fucking flying. They, 01:44:24:14 - 01:44:25:12 Giles Brook She's doing amazing job. 01:44:25:12 - 01:44:41:14 Dan You said that they're doing all of that. But also like to get the done free orders. She was like, you know, who does? What is it like? It's like fucking selling a house. You call an estate agent, do you? How do you do you do you have to call these people? They call you like when you say, we're speaking to the end of mind. 01:44:41:14 - 01:44:50:21 Dan We know where the Eldorado is. It's like, how do how do brands begin to know who to go for? Who's going to buy it, you know, so, so nebulous in the grand scheme of things. 01:44:50:21 - 01:45:11:01 Giles Brook So my, my, my three bits of advice are four bits of advice I'd give them. That would be. So first of all, you know, if you're doing a great job and if you're powering on, you should find that some people come to you and just introduce themselves. It's like I'm knocking, right? So I think it's the first thing build a great brand and build a great business alongside that brand. 01:45:11:03 - 01:45:35:23 Giles Brook And you should find that people start courting you anyway. Other thing I'd advise as well is that, there are a number of. M&A and M&A obviously mergers and acquisitions, stroke corporate financiers who whether they're represent on the buy or sell side, are continually representing people to buy or sell consumer goods brands. So, you know, you you and I spoke about some of the names earlier. 01:45:35:23 - 01:46:15:05 Giles Brook You know, you've got the banks with, you know, Rothschilds and you've got people like Piper Sandler, then you've got others such as more like boutique corporate, such as Hulu and Loki or Spain, Lindsay or Atlanta, for example. You should go and engage those guys and say, look, just want to put us on the map. Just talk about where the business is at, which is what we're doing a little bit about what we're trying to do, because those dying guys, day in, day out, speaking to all of the CEOs, board non-executives, M&A, head of M&A is in those sort of companies about, okay, what are you looking at a market? 01:46:15:09 - 01:46:31:19 Giles Brook Are you looking at acquisitions? Because sometimes they're given a mandate to say, look, okay, but example. Right okay. But that say, look, we've got a mandate to spend up to ten mandates. Right. So a mandate is a they will put in a request to say it's like, so let me get you an estate agent and saying, right, I guess I should say right. 01:46:31:23 - 01:46:51:14 Giles Brook Can you find me 1 million pound three bat house in postcode 18. Next out, these five things. Can you go away and find that for me? So the estate agent will go away and try and find something match that. That it's not uncommon. It's very, very common that the big corporates will say, look, we've done a whole strategic review of our business. 01:46:51:16 - 01:47:14:02 Giles Brook We believe in our within our own brands. We've got this capability, but there's 2 or 3 key consumer macro trends coming up or else categories that are exploding. We want to get into what we have exposure on. Can you find me? You know, a protein brand or can you find me what every brand is? Yeah. And if you've if you've got to introduce yourself and have these conversations, then you they can you can they can tee up those conversations for you. 01:47:14:04 - 01:47:32:08 Giles Brook And sometimes don't forget it's like you might not be ready to sell, but you can also have a conversation. But also you can bring somebody on a cap table as a minority investor, because a lot of these businesses have incubators now. Yes, there are some pros and cons to some people say, well, yeah, but if I bring them on, does that mean that if I want to sell it eventually I won't get as good a multiple? 01:47:32:08 - 01:47:48:23 Giles Brook Because maybe they've got something in the, in the, in the legals that says they get the right to buy at a certain price or actually, if, you know, if I've got Nestlé coming in, putting like a minority stake in, does that mean someone like Unilever will never have a buy me because they're never going to buy a business that's got somebody like Nestlé on as a minority thing? 01:47:48:23 - 01:48:12:24 Giles Brook So there's all those things to think about. But surround yourself by the advisors and people who, you know, who've been through these or processes, how you might write decisions. But, you know, fundamentally, you know, example, it's same with Amelia. Keep doing what she's doing because she's building an incredible brand. Everybody is talking about that business. It's also an area what I love about what she's doing. 01:48:13:01 - 01:48:34:09 Giles Brook And this is why this this is what this is what inspires this work. What I love doing is that, you know, she's done it in a really unsexy area, right? Canned and packaged grocery like people say, well, you know, I have this mantra that every, every I say every category needs a challenger brand, right? Yeah. Okay. There was nobody's disrupting pulses and grains and stuff in there. 01:48:34:09 - 01:48:46:02 Giles Brook She's gone in there and done an incredible job on a commodity, on a commoditized private label. When I talk about private, I mean like retailer branded, what do you need? A challenger branding that look what she's done to that category. She's like, revolutionized it. 01:48:46:02 - 01:49:03:09 Dan I wrote a newsletter that was all about this, and I was basically saying, like, why USP unique selling points are kind of dead and and actually what is what is a better move is unique category place. So instead of trying to say say for example like super busy category at the minute. So, so we've got health drinks, everyone's fighting, fighting, fighting. 01:49:03:09 - 01:49:20:00 Dan It's like the other way which you can do and there will be some winners. The other way is to say pick a category that hasn't been innovated in for yonks and just go there and be. The first is doing it with Bobby Oatly with oat milk. Yeah. You know, Jim Kahn is now doing with curry sauces like, you know, you know like curry sauce is like that. 01:49:20:02 - 01:49:25:22 Dan That was such a commoditized market changes. It's like totally. And I completely agree. Like there's a challenge brand in every. 01:49:25:24 - 01:49:52:10 Giles Brook Do you know what this all comes back to. And I think I think Adam sets up Adam Balon. He the on the podcast for he said it as well and it's my number. I talked about number one things in the panel in the building your brand. Right. The number one thing that this comes down to if you, if you if you want to build a brand, but also if you want to successfully exit the number one advice or the number one thing I look at in any investment I look at is the is a consumer y strong enough? 01:49:52:16 - 01:50:16:20 Giles Brook That's the big enough. And let me explain that right. For your brand or business or the cashier in terms of what you're doing in the brand, you're doing a product or service or providing, why is that going to be so desirable for a consumer in terms of better needing an existing sorry for, better meeting an existing needs state or meeting an untapped needs state? 01:50:16:22 - 01:50:40:12 Giles Brook And let me give an example recently. So obviously I'm in gut health already, and a number of brands. So obviously we talked about Freya earlier obviously got buyer me Dawson's. We've also got cop soda. But if I look at gut health I reckon I've had 14 gut health sodas coming to me in the last three months with, launching this whole soda, this guy or soda. 01:50:40:14 - 01:51:03:16 Giles Brook And I look at them all, or most of them. I can't actually give you a reason why the consumer should pick it up, because consumer why isn't strong enough. And it's no different than when I was on coconut water and somebody said to me, I'm launching birch water, I'm launching melon water, I'm launching, I think, rosemary water or whatever, they all came. 01:51:03:18 - 01:51:22:08 Giles Brook Yeah. But why? Oh, it's great tasting. Why? Well, it's sort to this. Does this. There wasn't a real, you know, it's not coconut water. Why coconut water? It's got twice the potassium of banana. It's all about electrolytes. It's electrolyte. So when you look at a proposition or your brand, what is the why is the why is strong enough for the consumer. 01:51:22:08 - 01:51:33:03 Giles Brook How are you going to tell them about it. Why that you're going to convert to purchase. And that's the number one Achilles heel I see the whole time, which is you. Why is not strong enough? That's the biggest thing. 01:51:33:05 - 01:51:39:09 Dan Yeah. That's this is, this is fascinating because, Seth, do you Seth Godin is a marketer marketing. 01:51:39:09 - 01:51:41:12 Giles Brook So you you read a lot more than me. I can. 01:51:41:12 - 01:51:56:18 Dan Yeah, yeah. Anyways, he he's like, he came on the podcast, which is like a dream come true. So he's the most he's the most is based inspire me to everything really which was just like a full circle moment. But I was talking about trends and he was saying and he, you know, this guy's like, I think he's 60 or 65. 01:51:56:18 - 01:52:16:10 Dan So he's seen it and worked in marketing his whole life. And he was saying, we drink. You see moments of inspiration followed by long tales of commodity, which is exactly what the fight cocoa is. It's like race to the bottom. So it's like you have the moment and the coconut water race the bottom. Yeah, I think, you know, gut health with the sodas race, race then eventually is going to happen. 01:52:16:10 - 01:52:33:07 Dan As you say, you've seen 15 pitch decks, is going to eventually go to get to a thing where it's a race to the bottom. How can brands and will wrap up? Some of you realize you've got to go seen, but how can brands really, like make their why ironclad for the consumer? Like what some of the thing is they can do. 01:52:33:07 - 01:52:36:15 Dan And how do you do that via Coco? For me, the why is what is that? 01:52:36:15 - 01:52:57:08 Giles Brook Is that again, when you talk about Prada thing and I think Mike would say the same. Right. I will again, careful because I'm never, ever, never complacent. And you literally obsess every day to make sure you stay where you are. But the amount of people that told us that coconut water would last, it was a fad, whereas we knew it had been drunk across the globe, particularly in hot climates, daily ritual everywhere. 01:52:57:10 - 01:53:09:24 Giles Brook And it was just about bringing that particularly to the Western world. And why that look? And coming up, you know, I, you know, I was I stepped out after 12, 13 years. But I think Mike's coming up to that. We commit to a 20 year anniversary. 01:53:10:01 - 01:53:10:19 Dan In New York. Yeah. 01:53:10:24 - 01:53:35:05 Giles Brook But the number one word I'm trying to explain there is longevity, right? Everybody said it'd be a fad. The number one thing you need to provide is why there's a one devotee for the brand new category of what you're doing, because it's been so resilient and kept going, and it kept growing and growing and growing and growing. And, you know, you know, Mike's Mike's well over half a billion sales now the market cap of Coco is over 2 billion today right on on the show. 01:53:35:07 - 01:53:44:19 Giles Brook And it's got this brilliant ability to show that more and more consumers are coming into the brand every day. But importantly, existing consumers are buying more and drinking more each day as well. So I think in terms of. 01:53:44:21 - 01:53:50:19 Dan Do you think brands can draw, it can turn fat, can drive fads to trends to like if. 01:53:50:19 - 01:53:53:14 Giles Brook The if the why is strong enough. 01:53:53:16 - 01:53:54:22 Dan Brands can lead it and clear. 01:53:54:22 - 01:54:08:16 Giles Brook Enough, then yes, there's a reason why. I think you're about to see a one of the things I think about to see a big danger at the moment is that when we talk about future trends, I think you're about to see a world where, you know, at the moment, if you're not careful. I think everybody sat there in the morning. 01:54:08:16 - 01:54:25:10 Giles Brook A lot of people are particularly people who are into like, you know, kind of fitness stuff in the body that's out there. There's I know, I know people, including myself, I'm selling I certainly got 20 supplements, right, of take this, do this, do this boomer madness and actually think, you know, there's a brand like Heights at the moment is going, look, get all the noise. 01:54:25:10 - 01:54:45:15 Giles Brook You just need one thing. This is it. And I think you're going to see there's a global trend around personalization. But also I think there's a global trend around simplification as well. And that people just want to know that if I drink right this it does this. But importantly the why do that that it does. But importantly to the level you acquire, I think that's what can happen because it's like it's like me at the moment. 01:54:45:15 - 01:55:02:12 Giles Brook I'm now rattle on what I take because I'm taking turmeric and all bits and pieces because I'm told, you know, bits and pieces from trading or just general lifestyle and stuff like that. But I think you're going to see a lot more simplification coming. People who can just make consumers lives easier are going to do really, really well. 01:55:02:14 - 01:55:03:02 Giles Brook But going. 01:55:03:02 - 01:55:04:21 Dan Back, that's what kills basically done, isn't it? 01:55:04:22 - 01:55:05:23 Giles Brook Reveals a great example. 01:55:05:24 - 01:55:08:23 Dan Like I mean, and I like the Rory Southern talks about. 01:55:09:01 - 01:55:11:12 Giles Brook Complete meal solution and then that does that. 01:55:11:14 - 01:55:17:04 Dan But also it's like also I think the fact it doesn't taste as good as a laser is what is. It's just G that's genius. 01:55:17:07 - 01:55:37:04 Giles Brook But but what you have, what you have to think about there is huge the market themselves in such a good way. So it's no different than saying well yeah, but surely then everybody's still just having a multi-vitamin and you just need to agree to that motivation. Everything's okay. No, because that's not enough for a lot of people. They're now trying to take excess, kill them really well because they're communicating exactly what is in their products, why that's all they need. 01:55:37:06 - 01:55:42:19 Giles Brook And that and the buck stops there and everybody, and they've got the consumer saying, yeah, that's what I need to do. I'm happy I've nailed that. 01:55:42:21 - 01:55:51:08 Dan What do you think of some of the trends that melt into fads, and what do you think some of the fads that potentially like will be will be the like a coca will be the innocent. 01:55:51:08 - 01:56:15:15 Giles Brook Salem I think I think just generally speaking, I think, you know, macro trends. We talked we talked about personalization. So I think it's not gonna be long before two in between. You know, whatever you've got on your watch or on your wrist or on your phone, we'll just tell you straight away, here's your recommended order. I've got all these things and yeah, we talked about and bio me that we think we can do something where people can answer ten questions and we can personalize exactly what they need from us. 01:56:15:17 - 01:56:41:23 Giles Brook So I think personalization is a big one. I've talked about that bit. I think in terms of macro trends, I think collagen and gut health is just going to be huge. I think gut health probably will be the same size, if not bigger than protein as a macro trend. What you're now seeing now, it's really interesting because people think proteins gone to its level and it's still going to be there, but the protein is about to go again. 01:56:42:00 - 01:56:42:16 Giles Brook So you know. 01:56:42:17 - 01:56:44:18 Dan What makes you think that like as in. 01:56:44:20 - 01:57:12:23 Giles Brook Have a look at the U.S is absolutely juggernaut thing again. Because beforehand it was just particularly the fitness and active lifestyle people getting into it. But now people are realizing that a high protein diet can benefit so many more range of consumers particularly, and even kids, females, females with pregnant pregnancy, menopause, all that sort of stuff. And protein is now being, integrated into so many different diet requirements. 01:57:13:00 - 01:57:46:20 Giles Brook Suddenly people are realizing that protein is incredibly hot as general lifestyle. So the addressable audience is probably going up 40%. And when you look at globally, the billion, you know, amount of people now be advised to take more protein. It's quite frightening. So I think protein, you know, and gut health are going to be absolutely huge. And then obviously the other big area in consumer goods, some I know I'm not going to talk about the whole sustainability bit because I think, you know, I think every single product and service, unless people pick that up and know that they're doing something that is less detrimental or more importantly, has a positive impact on, on, on, on, 01:57:46:22 - 01:58:16:05 Giles Brook on the planet less, I think that's can become a prerequisite for products if you don't if you aren't having a positive impact as a brand, as a brand, whether your product or service on the environment, people are going to stop, stop shopping. You know, I think you've got to do that. But I think going back to consumer goods and food and drink, I think this whole nootropics, adaptogens, you know, the big area there, which is obviously a lot of this stuff is kind of positively using the mind and again, putting stuff into your body that has functional benefits that are are akin to that sort of products. 01:58:16:05 - 01:58:27:00 Giles Brook I think, again, mushroom is going to be a massive growth area and you're seeing some good brands. You know, you've seen space goods, you've seen dirty. You know, there's some days in Co there's loads of nice brands doing that. It's a big space. 01:58:27:05 - 01:58:43:13 Dan In terms of like the consumer piece is again a massive addict to coffee as well. But that space is really does work well. Libby from Piper Investments says that there only ever be one winner in a category like what are your thoughts on that? 01:58:43:15 - 01:58:48:21 Giles Brook Do I I don't agree with that. 01:58:48:23 - 01:58:52:05 Giles Brook She took it from a challenger brand perspective. 01:58:52:07 - 01:58:53:19 Dan You know, you know, pop investment as in. 01:58:53:19 - 01:59:14:11 Giles Brook Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I think I do agree with that. But then there are always some categories that would challenge that. And that is for example, let's take energy drinks. I think both Red Bull and Monster have been very successful alongside each other because I almost argue slightly differently. And I'm not not by the way, I know Libby and she's she's an incredible operator. 01:59:14:11 - 01:59:38:15 Giles Brook Right. And very, very smart. The only I would say is that quite often you need multiple good challenger brands to build the category to its potential. So, for example, on coconut water, I don't think we have got coconut water as a token category to the size we got it to. Unless we had the likes of innocent, naked, harmless harvest all spending money, helping us drive awareness and then building the category to the level. 01:59:38:17 - 01:59:57:22 Giles Brook Yes, I would say we're the lead brand out there today. But there are still some of the brands out there, and I'm sure somebody else will come again. And you have to be a little bit careful on this, because it's like takes me this example today. Innocent is the number one smoothie, right. But everybody said don't go in smoothies again. 01:59:57:24 - 02:00:20:21 Giles Brook But then have a look at what something like mockingbird is now doing. So mockingbird is actually a very younger incarnation of Southey. Right. So that they bought they didn't realize that they bought the A6 mockingbird. Mockingbird is absolutely smashing it in there. And actually, you know, is a good second player to innocent and I suspect innocent are happy about that because I think mockingbird is bringing new consumers or lapsed consumers back into the category. 02:00:20:23 - 02:00:26:07 Giles Brook And then it's innocence job then to say, well, how do we then, you know, convert them back to convert them back or bring them into innocent as a brand? 02:00:26:08 - 02:00:44:22 Dan What are your thoughts on other brands? Because that category piece is interesting is actually you can compete with I think people are by default competitive founders are. So they look at their other challenger brands as a competitor set. And this is what Mark Palmer told me. He goes, yeah, actually that is that you can do that. Me you're going to be quite paranoid, miserable like all those things. 02:00:44:22 - 02:01:02:06 Dan Yeah. Slightly different with Vice Coca because it was much there's a much. You guys are much bigger then. But he was actually saying, you know, so say it was peanut butter money love versus pepper. Not so we could compete with each other. Or we could both just try and knock off some part. Both try knock off. And he was basically saying go after the big incumbent. 02:01:02:06 - 02:01:03:24 Dan Like, yeah, how do you think. 02:01:04:05 - 02:01:17:13 Giles Brook Yeah. You basically I think what you do is. It's like it's like various because you can go after being incumbent if your consumer demographic is completely different doesn't help. Right. But if you've got a lot of consumer y. 02:01:17:13 - 02:01:18:08 Dan Right. Yeah. Yeah. 02:01:18:10 - 02:01:35:19 Giles Brook Exactly that. Right. And I think you can do that. And I think yeah. Good examples I've got again Amber which is the meat. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Those guys are doing a really, really good job because you know we've looked at you know, you've got brands such as Kings and other brands in the category who are well-established meat snacking brands. 02:01:35:19 - 02:02:00:18 Giles Brook But they said look, how do we win? And they've basically said, look, we can actually we think we can do we can win on product better than those guys deliver a much more tasty high, higher moisturizer, less dry, you know, biltong, etc., but also in a more sustainable way through. They talk very heavily about regenerative farming with a really nice, strong brand that has a really nice premium edge to it and embers just now absolutely flying. 02:02:00:18 - 02:02:16:17 Giles Brook So the why is strong so strong in that category. Some of the retail has gone actually. We see the role you play actually because there's this premiumisation happening in that category. And people want the quality of meat and they want that high, high protein sauce. And they, you know, against a 2 or 3 competitors in that space. Ember have done a really good job on that. 02:02:16:23 - 02:02:24:10 Giles Brook So I think again. I'd answer that slightly different to to and again, I'm not trying to be controversial. Yeah. 02:02:24:11 - 02:02:25:08 Dan I just like getting. 02:02:25:10 - 02:02:29:13 Giles Brook A huge respect. Respect both. I mean Mark and I have worked together. 02:02:29:15 - 02:02:31:17 Dan He's one of the labels isn't exactly. 02:02:31:23 - 02:02:56:08 Giles Brook But I think what it comes down to is that. I think you can have multiple challenged brands in a category if each brand's Y is big enough. If you have a positioning and you're strong enough and you can, you know, you can be, you know, if you can be successful, you know, I think multiple brands can operate. But ultimately the the brand that has the strongest is the consumer and continues to evolve and reinvent itself. 02:02:56:08 - 02:03:14:04 Giles Brook And when you grow with your consumer and doesn't fatigue, that's the one that ultimately will come out on top. That's the bottom line. You can't stand still. You've got to evolve and stuff like that. You've got to you've got to do it differently. And again, one brand I think I know they're only two and a half, three years old, but, you know, people said to me originally with, oh, surreal, you know, I love them cereal marketing and stuff like that. 02:03:14:04 - 02:03:17:14 Giles Brook But, you know, it's going to fatigue a bit, but you just watch how they've taken on already. 02:03:17:16 - 02:03:25:11 Dan What do you. Unbelievable. Let's. Yeah. What do you. Because Jack's got he's got a kid. He's got a knee operation and you know something. So I'm trying to pin them down. 02:03:25:13 - 02:03:26:21 Giles Brook Okay. It's got two kids now. 02:03:26:21 - 02:03:49:17 Dan Yeah, yeah. So so we've I've literally been emailing them back and forth for like, ages and we're like, we're going to make it happen hopefully in Jan. But yeah final thing like what's going to make them successful do you think because as you say a lot of people write wrote write off, write off, write it off, say no, written off it off that category, that category saying, oh, you know, you know, like what? 02:03:49:17 - 02:03:51:23 Dan How do you think they're going to get what. 02:03:52:00 - 02:04:09:24 Giles Brook That brand I can't, I mean, again, the they are the numbers in two and a half years, there are a scale most brands haven't got two in 4 or 5 years. Absolute flying. There's a number of things you've got there. You've got two incredibly complementary founders who are both top of their game who's. 02:04:09:24 - 02:04:10:12 Dan Which. 02:04:10:14 - 02:04:27:20 Giles Brook To Jack. Jack is more commercial supply chain kit is he is he's the brand in the market. Yeah. And you know he's doing both and complement each other very well. Yeah. They've also got an innocent guy who does a lot of the copy and stuff in there. Like, Johnny does an incredible job. So I think you've got a winning team there. 02:04:27:22 - 02:04:50:13 Giles Brook I think you've also then got a product that is back on track with consumer sites and will continue to be high protein. You then got obviously, zero sugar and low carbs. That trend is a very big trend for consumers not going away. You've got a great tasting product. You bring in innovative and innovative, relevant flavors, exciting flavors. 02:04:50:13 - 02:05:12:04 Giles Brook I mean, look at the partnership they did with Gymshark, like, you know, so good. And you've got logo, Gymshark logo, you know, cereal pieces, people going to absolute mad for it. I don't know if you saw a week ago they just launched their limited edition honeycomb, which is unbelievably tasting. It's brilliant. And I'm just sat there absolute wetting myself on the whole Winnie the Pooh versus Paddington battle for having, you know. 02:05:12:06 - 02:05:24:21 Giles Brook Yeah. And you know what I mean. It's just people need this in their life every day, particularly with the rubbish we've got going on around us and all the austerity, you know, I don't know what they're talking about. Not going to be change or austerity. The government, we all go back to austerity, whether we like it or not. 02:05:24:23 - 02:05:32:11 Giles Brook You need brands that bring it, bring the, you know, bring a moment of sunshine to your to, you know, your day. And so that's what someone like Cyril's doing. 02:05:32:13 - 02:05:42:12 Dan Outstanding, mate. Look, I know you've got a long a meeting of absolutely fucking love that it was. It was banging. And there's just. Your mind is bubbling with wisdom. It was. It was absolute. 02:05:42:17 - 02:05:45:03 Giles Brook So thank you for having me again. Yeah, it's been great. My. 02:05:45:03 - 02:05:45:19 Dan Next event member. 02:05:45:19 - 02:05:57:04 Giles Brook Always happy to do it. Doesn't have to be on you could be biannual. And if there's anything you know you ever need or you want me to talk about, I'm always happy to talk about it. But, mate, thank you. And it's great to see the podcast grow so much because you didn't really, really well with that. So that's great. 02:05:57:09 - 02:05:58:04 Dan I appreciate that. 02:05:58:05 - 02:06:00:02 Giles Brook Good people deserve to do well and you're one of them. 02:06:00:03 - 02:06:03:10 Dan Oh, thank you so much, mate. Right. That was so 02:06:03:10 - 02:06:04:13 Dan cool. 02:06:04:13 - 02:06:41:12

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The £100m Brand Man: 17 Unknown Ways To ACTUALLY Secure a HUGE Exit + “the EXIT world has COMPLETELY changed… Multiples of revenue is DEAD”

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