You and I are on a quest of epic proportions. Our world is facing catastrophe on a planetary scale and in need of our help. Together, we've answered the call to adventure and left the comforts of our peaceful village set forth into the unknown. And that's when we met Ishmael, a telepathic gorilla who showed us how our civilization is held captive by a story and helped us cross over the treacherous wall of Tiger mythology.
We came into contact with the levers traverse the Garden of Eden, studied the wildlife and made it all the way to here where we are today. The climactic culmination of our exploration. The ideas in the novel. Ishmael, written by author Daniel Quinn, think it's time we return to the place it all began. Ashbourne. Hold on. Careful. All right. Let's cross the intersection and pass through the thickets. Remember to watch out for the thorns. Yeah. Just ignore the no trespassing sign.
Here we are. Ashbourne Country Club. It's been abandoned for years. Come on, let's explore. Check out those oak trees. That to be, like, 200 years old. And look. Can you still tell this was a golf course? The grass is as high as our waist at this point. It's a real meadow now and here. Oh. Watch your step. You see that patch where the tall grass is matted down? That's a deer bed. I've seen them. The deer made this. This is where they sleep at night.
And some of the most amazing things can only be seen over time. This is the old country club's private pool. An artificial hole dug into the ground, lined with concrete, filled with chlorinated water. And then when Ashbourne was abandoned. Slowly but surely, the rain washed out the chemicals. Algae formed at its edges. One day I noticed there were lily pads. The next year there are reeds and eventually frogs. It's funny.
We live in a culture where it seems like nothing happens unless we force it to the streets. Don't pay themselves. Money doesn't grow on trees. But look, this was a sand trap. I watched this every day. The moss that took hold. The plants that grow up on the back of the lichen. This is life just happening on its own. And if we spend enough time here, we'll see hawks and herons and foxes and groundhogs at the bottom of the hill over there. That's where I bring my friends.
The ones who do understand we'd sit around makeshift campfires. My friend Mark and I started to learn how to identify different species and ate freely from the abundant wine berry bushes. And the most incredible thing is the whole world is this. Buried under layers of asphalt. It's there. In Ashbourne, the soil shakes off the cracked asphalt like a bad dream. New life grows in those cracks. And as a kid, I was confused. Why are we resisting this? Our culture calls this overgrown and undeveloped.
Few people just come out and say it. But most times we really do believe nature is just a resource. But Ashbourne shows that the whole world can be different. Because here it already is. And we know that there are cultures that live in balance for the rest of life. Our culture could be one of them. But as long as we're stuck in our mindset, it's only a matter of time before the bulldozers will come to rip up the soil and buried in asphalt all over again. Around the time I graduated high school.
Construction crews started mowing back the meadow mark trees to be cut. Even tore down one of the buildings that was the most fun to export. Development like this would start and stop in fits and spurts until luckily it paused for a long time. Maybe someone in some boardroom somewhere had to wait for someone at some desk somewhere else to sign some form. They were waiting on from some department downtown. Who knows? It would all get done eventually.
I knew unless one day they changed their minds and joined us in celebrating the flowers, breaking through the asphalt. Welcome to Episode seven of Human Nature Odyssey, a podcast exploring how our world is in trouble and what the heck we can possibly do about it.
I'm Alexis. Daniel Quinn once wrote Thinkers aren't limited by what they know because they can always increase what they know rather, they're limited by what puzzles them because there's no way to become curious about something that doesn't puzzle you. Daniel Quinn was born in 1935 in Omaha, Nebraska, and as a young man, he stumbled upon many questions that truly puzzled him. Questions about human history, mythology, civilization, and its self-destructive path.
His curiosity brought him into the hills of Kentucky to become a Trappist monk, to Chicago to work in education, publishing and the deserts of New Mexico with his wife, Renee. Along the way, he had certain thoughts which took form as interesting ideas and eventually he wrote, quote, It seemed to me I had something worth sharing. It would be a book devoted to explaining how things came to be this way, unquote. And one day it would also be a book about how things could be different.
But it's one thing to have an idea. Finding a way to share it. That would be much harder. In 1977, he wrote the first draft, but it wasn't quite right. So he wrote another and another, sometimes entire manuscripts would be dumped in the trash, but he kept at it. Eventually he had something that to him at least seemed publishable. But the renowned literary agent he sent it to did not think so. This is the 1980s, the agent told him, not the sixties. He sent Daniel Quinn back.
This response, quote, There were days when the love and peace were very much the by words of the times. But today's audiences have reverted to conservatism to a good degree. The modern reader is far more likely to purchase a computer book or something that offers practical advice than a work which deals with more arcane subject matter. We simply can't see marketing the script profitably in the contemporary publishing marketplace.
Furthermore, it's also my sad duty to have to inform you that no amount of revision could possibly turn this into a sellable manuscript. The flaws in this script are intimately bound up in your central underlying conceptualizations, and these make this material totally and completely unreliable, unquote. Well, shit. What do you do with a rejection like that? Maybe you take a break. Worked on some other stuff, sleep in a bit later than usual for a few days.
But if this is really important to you, you'll find a way to get back at it. And it probably helps to have the support of a loving partner like Daniel Quinn did. So he got back at it and rewrote it again and again. Years passed. Each time he kept what was working and cut what wasn't. Maybe this needed to be emphasized. This needed to be explained a different way. In this sense, the book wasn't created. It evolved. But who would publish this thing?
Meanwhile, there was another young man named Ted, who grew up in a wealthy family in Ohio at the age of 24. His father committed suicide, leaving Ted devastated and in charge of the family business, which happened to be a billboard company. Giant signs that get people's attention and spread information. It seems Ted had a genuine interest in this, or at least was good at it. Ted bought a local broadcast station and eventually launched the first 24 hour cable news channel.
Ted called it the Cable News Network or CNN. Ted Turner now owned a full on media empire and amassed a great fortune. But like Daniel Quinn, Ted was concerned with the way civilization seemed to be heading. In fact, Ted did the producers of CNN create a special video that would air if the world happened to come to an end? He gathered a military marching band to play the same hymn they played aboard the Titanic as it was sinking. But that was just in case.
Because Ted didn't want the world to end. And he wanted to do something about it. He wanted a framework on how to go about making the world better. Some kind of guide that would help make sense of the problems the world faces and what we could do about them. Ted wanted a vision, so he decided to pay for one. In 1991, he put together the Ted Turner Fellowship, a contest of sorts, offering half a million dollars to the author who could provide a new work of fiction that had such a vision.
He assembled a team of judges, each a literary titan, like while Stegner adding Gordon Moore and Ray Bradbury. Here's how Ted put it quote, The great minds of today need to focus on the problems of global significance. If humanity is to see new tomorrows, these awards are designed to encourage writing by authors throughout the world and in all languages that create positive solutions to global problems. Uncle. News of the contest spread all over the world.
The Fellowship received 2500 manuscripts from 58 countries. One of those submissions was from Daniel Quinn. His wife, Renee, had heard about the contest and encouraged him to apply. So he wrote one more version of the book he'd been working on for years and years. Each version had different characters told from different angles. This time he made it a dialog with a gorilla, a gorilla named Ishmael, as Daniel Quinn said in his autobiography. I didn't expect to win.
I figured I'd be eliminated in the first reading. But sure enough, he won. And in 1992, Ishmael was published and shared worldwide. And then a year later, something happened that didn't have anything to do with any of this. It didn't matter to Daniel Quinn. It certainly didn't matter to Ted Turner. I was born, which mattered a whole lot to me. And 18 years later, when I was graduating high school while exploring Ashbourne.
Having already read Ishmael many times, I wondered what would it take for the world to change? In the book, Ishmael and the narrator share an ongoing conversation. Over many months, they'll have a session about a specific idea. The narrator will go home, think it over. Then they'll come back and build on where they left off. But one afternoon, the narrator finds that Ishmael is gone. Just totally vanished. The only thing left in Ishmael is empty office.
Is the smell of guerrilla war that could have gone. Can't exactly saunter over to Tripoli without catching too much attention. He's a girl, after all. The narrator's devastated. He has so many unanswered questions. You can't leave me hanging. We weren't done. You told me all this stuff, but you didn't tell me what to do about it. You might be wondering the same thing yourself. I mean, here we are. Seven episodes into the podcast.
We've talked about our collective captivity and takers and levers and cultural mythology. The Garden of Eden, the love life. Now what, Ishmael? What are you saying? We do. The narrator is determined to find them. He remembers Ishmael once told him he came from a circus. Could that be where he returned? Well, after some digging. Turns out there's a carnival a few towns over. And sure enough, the narrator finds Ishmael there, back behind the bars of a cage.
The narrator waits for the gawking children of eve bribes security guard, and finally can ask Ishmael what's next? But Ishmael doesn't give us the ten simple steps to save the world or how to apply for an official leaver certificate. Ishmael is not that kind of guerilla or that kind of book. Instead, Ishmael essentially gives us a map of the landscape and a compass so that we may navigate the societal journey ourselves. But how do you transform an entire society?
Ishmael has given us a lot of parables so far, but now I want to share one of my own that will help us see how Ishmael will frame how to navigate this collective transformation. There once was a young prince who inherited a vast kingdom. When he looked out beyond the palace walls, he saw that his people were unhappy. There was much strife, turmoil and unrest. Crime was rampant. There were theft, scams, extortion. Even murder was commonplace. Nobody could trust their neighbors.
It's far from ideal, but the prince was determined to do something about it, so he locked himself away in his library for days. He didn't eat. He didn't sleep. And finally, the prince was struck by a vision of clarity. He wouldn't just make things better. He would create the perfect society. You see, the prince realized the problem with his subjects was their behavior was incorrect. Therefore, all the people needed were clear, detailed instructions on how to behave correctly.
The prince scrawled away furiously and drafted up the perfect solution that would save his kingdom. At long last, the prince emerged from his chamber. Peter the prince called out to his trusty acolyte. Peter dutifully and diligently entered the candlelit room, impressed by his words, carefully drawn out plans. Yes. Yes. Hello, Peter. I have here written the most brilliantly conceived, foolproof commandment. You are to implement this perfect plan, and soon we shall have created the ideal society.
Fantastic idea, my liege, who always have the best ideas. Thank you, Peter. So what is this? Official decree? No more lying. No more lying. That's right. It is now forbidden. Oh, wow. I didn't realize we could. Yes, Peter, we can. And we will. Yes, yes, of course, Your Highness. A point. I shall have this new order proclaimed in every corner of your kingdom. Very good. So Peter went out to execute his master's orders. Trumpets were blown.
Scrolls are disseminated, and soon every last peasant and paper in the whole land knew what the prince had proclaimed. A few days later, Peter returned to the prince. At your hands. Yes, Peter. Well, you see, I have good news and bad news. Okay. What is the good news? Well, the good news is I use this new font and all of the scrolls are handed out. It looks very good, very official. I was really quite pleased. And the bad news? Oh, that. Yes. Well, not everyone is following this new law.
They're not? No, no. People are still lying. I guess the law didn't work. I got any others. You want to try instead? No, Peter. In fact, I planned for this. You planned for this? Yes, I did. This isn't a problem at all. Peter, go tell the people that those who do not follow this law will be punished. Punished? Indeed, those who lie, even though it is forbidden, will be sent to the dungeons, the dungeon. Your Excellency. That dungeons for a whole year.
Well, Peter, as loyal as he was announced the new decree. Soon, hundreds, if not thousands, were taken by Royal Guards and locked away. Some estimated half of the entire kingdom was found guilty and punished. In fact, so many were imprisoned that dozens of new dungeons had to be constructed. A year passed, and Peter went to update the prince on his new policy. Greetings, Your Majesty. Hello, Peter. What say you? Well, I. I've got good news and bad news. This is due to the bad news this time.
Yes. Yes, certainly, Sydney. The bad news is that the prisoners who have been released were found lying again. Still lying. Are they? Yes. It seems even after prison day, we're just. Don't stop. I see. Don't feel bad. Your greatness or the law didn't work out. I'm sure you can conceive of an even better one. Peter, you silly little man. The law is working fine. It is. It's the people who aren't working. Oh, right. Right. So. So what shall we do with the lawyers in a whole year in the dungeons?
Don't stop them. The answer is simple. We shall send them to prison for life. And so it went until every last one of the prince's subjects were locked away. And the whole kingdom became one great dungeon. The Prince never viewed this as a failure, however. Sure, people weren't behaving how he told them to. But at least they were being punished for it. Now, in many ways, this ain't too different from now. Take your civilization's criminal justice system has operated for thousands of years.
Ishmael points out that even way back in the time of Hammurabi, the ancient Babylonian ruler, takers have created laws that tell people how they must live and punish them for breaking it. Even if a law isn't working, meaning that many, many people are constantly breaking it and being punished for it, like, oh, I don't know. The war on drugs in our era. Takers won't enforce this law because it's what people are supposed to do.
On the other hand, Ishmael explains that generally speaking, believers aren't making uncompromised passing laws based on hypothetical ideals. Adjustments are made. Individual circumstances are taking into consideration. There's flexibility. This is one of the key distinctions Ishmael makes between takers and leavers takers from their culture through declarations and inventions. Leavers evolve their culture over time based on what's working well for people.
And what works well for people is going to be different for different people in different places at different times. And that's important, too. Ishmael is adamant that there's no, quote, one right way to live, unquote. A world full of takers, trends towards a monolithic culture, a world full of leavers, trends towards diversity of thinking, being and behaving.
But ultimately, Ishmael believes, if we want to change how people, quote, behave towards the world, we need to change the way they think about the world, unquote. As Ishmael says, as long as the people of your culture are convinced that the world belongs to them and their destiny is to conquer and rule it, then they are, of course, going to go on acting the way they've been acting for the past 10,000 years. You can't change these things with the laws. You must change people's minds, unquote.
The narrator can't help but notice that Ishmael is. Health seems to be rapidly deteriorating. He's grown sick and weary. Ishmael is an elderly gorilla and starting to feel his age. One night, Ishmael tells him, quote, I've finished what I've set out to do. As a teacher, I have nothing more to give you. Even so, I would be pleased to count you as a friend, unquote. I like that Daniel Quint included this detail. Ishmael is not trying to have the narrator follow and listen to him forever.
The point is not following. Ishmael had a specific message to share, and once it shared, it ends. The teacher student dynamic with the narrator couldn't have known was that these end up being the final words he ever hears from Ishmael. The next time, when he arrives to visit, to attempt to buy Ishmael is freedom. With all his withdrawn savings in his pocket, he finds that the carnival's gone. There's a janitor cleaning up the trash who tells him just the night before Ishmael died of pneumonia.
If we want to change how people behave towards the world, we need to change the way they think about the world. This is the part of the quest where our wise old mentor leaves us and we have to find our way on our own. That's all we're left with in Ishmael. What do we make of it? For several summers after high school, my friend Dan and I set up our own yardwork business. My specialty was mowing lawns, and Dan had a way with those hedge trimmers.
But our favorite task was gardening, helping things grow. Some plants grow at the expense of others. In the garden. They take up so much space that soon nothing else is able to live. When weeding, it does no good to simply snap off stems or cut back branches to be most effective. You've got to pull it out by the root. That's essentially what Ishmael did helped get at the source of our civilizational crisis. With Ishmael his help, I could see how the many crises we face are interconnected.
Part of the same gnarly vine that's overtaking the rest of the garden and the roots of our civilizational crisis are deep and planted long ago. So let's consider one of our crises like climate change. We can build higher seawalls and grow drought resistant crops, but these are only Band-Aids. You could say the real problem is burning fossil fuels or overpopulation. Maybe capitalism.
But Ishmael would view all these still as just symptoms of taken mythology, enacting the story that the world belongs to us. Oh, no. I know where this is going. What's up, boss? You rang. No, no, no, I. We were just talking about gardening. This is our take on mythology. How we met in previous episodes. He speaks of subconscious cultural bias we're all raised with. He can be a little gardening. Boring. Yeah, you probably wouldn't be interested. So. No. There's nothing wrong with a hobby.
I can get down with that. What are we talking? A couple of supple succulents. If you find five kisses. No, actually, it's just a metaphor. We were talking about finding the root of our civilizations crises. If we're to continue to exist, we'll have to try and remove that root. How did the talking gorilla tell you that, too? So what's the root? Well, it's taken mythology. Excuse me. It's how we perceive the world. Our relationship to it.
Fundamentally, if we want to change, we've got to change our mindset. Oh, that's what you got to do. We got to change our mindset. What a frickin luxury. There's people starving. There's wars all over the place. The seas are rising. Now, those are problems to solve. You're saying that instead you've got to focus on changing how you think? No, that's not the only thing we have to do. It's not like we can only do one thing.
The famines and wars and climate change, those are serious stems and branches we have to deal with. In fact, when weeding sometimes you're gonna have to clip off some branches and stems to even get to the root. Okay. Yeah. Let's not think these big questions are meant to keep us in lofty places. Seeing activism and politics is just beneath us. There's still a part of saving the world balanced breakfast. We still need to create better laws, elect better representatives, take direct action.
Uh huh. We just have to recognize that in order to really solve these problems and heal these things, we have to know where they come from as well. We need a fundamental transformation of our entire society. Oh, come on. That's so lame. What are you. Mister Rogers sweater. I say, if you want real change. But this all burned to the ground. Start over. I used to dabble in a little pyromania back in the day. Now, I don't know.
Look, if we're on a plane not designed to fly, our task isn't to wait for its crash, but figure out how to find a way to land safely and build a better design. Hmm. But I think you have a point. Some people kind of like the idea of a crash. It's maybe similar to a drug addict seeking rock bottom as a way to trigger some sort of external intervention. But a crash isn't a real transformation. We just start building this all over again. I don't know. You guys are falling kind of fast.
Seems kind of inevitable. Okay. Okay. If we do crash and we might not, or it won't happen everywhere at the same time. But if we do crash, we need to make sure that the people on the other side one day say, look, kids, you see all that rubble. That's because we tried to think that the world belonged to us. We're not going to do that again. The worst case scenario is if after the crash, people of the future look at the rubble and say, kids, you see that we used to live like gods.
We got to do that again. So you want to change minds, but you don't want revolution. I just don't see the revolution as one event. The revolution we need is not like the French Revolution. A quick, violent moment. We need a revolution of the mind that will take place over decades, centuries. The transformation our civilization needs to go through is somewhat similar to the Renaissance, which literally means a rebirth. Yeah. No, I studied the classics well, at the beginning of the Renaissance.
People weren't like, okay, the goal is to build a society that in 400 years looks like blah, blah, blah. They just thought about themselves, the world, and their relation to it differently. When our whole society has different expectations about what we as a species should be doing here. We're going to naturally follow those expectations, and our transformation needs to be even broader and deeper than the European Renaissance, which was just refining taken mythology. We need a complete overhaul.
Okay, let's put it in, Ishmael, in terms at the beginning of the agricultural revolution, when your mythology was first being formed and the lifestyles were first changing. The people then couldn't have possibly imagined the world we create down the line when the first takers were embarking on what would become our global civilization. They didn't know how to split an atom or alter the Earth's climate. And they didn't need to.
They just believed the world belonged to them and took it one step at a time. They started in one sense, quite literally, cultivating seeds that grew into something beyond their imagination. So metaphorically, that's the position we're in. Fundamentally, I think Ishmael is right. Change minds, create a changed world. So you're serious that you really think I'm the problem? You think taking mythology caused all this? Well, yeah, I. I thought we were friends.
Is it because I said you need a dandruff shampoo? No, it's not because of that. I don't get it. But I've ever steered you wrong. Well, you told us we were at the center of the universe, so we're not. Well, yeah, I meant the center of the universe in my heart. You told us we were created separately and superior to all of life. Well, you can't take a compliment. The community of life are our cousins. Okay, sure. So what? You insisted the law of life doesn't apply to us?
Yeah. Turns out that was my bet. And most importantly, you convinced us the world was ours to conquer. So that's it? You're going to just throw me in the trash? A few thousand years of bad advice and don't get done with me after all we've been through. I'll tell you what all humans need a story to enact one way or another. Ishmael said, quote, You can't just root out a harmful complex of ideas and leave a void behind. You have to give people something that is as meaningful as what they've lost.
Unquote. Will still need a story. Okay. Sure. To grow up and not be. Listen. Take your hat. We can still be friends. Okay? Yeah, but we need to change the mythology we're enacting. Oh, Lord. Change. Change is hard, but extinction is worse. So you can still be our imaginary hat. Whispering words of encouragement, offering insight and advice. But it can't be that the world belongs to us anymore. We need to enact a different story. It has to be now. We belong to the world. You belong to the world.
That's what's been true all along. Listen, this is a good thing, and you can be a part of it, okay? You belong to the world. That's right. You're a part of the community of voice. There you go. Your existence depends on ecological help and robust biodiversity of the planet. Now you're getting the hang of it. I am? Yeah. This is a good place to start. Who knows? You keep spreading that message. The whole world could change. We could change the world. We've done it before.
Well, then you got yourself a deal. And speaking of deals, there's this new shampoo that's half off. It could help with your dandruff. Okay. Okay. Thank you. I'll get some today. Who? So, what did Ishmael mean by belonging to the world? Because it's certainly not the inverse of the world. Belonging to us in the sense that the world owns us. It's a different kind of belonging. We're at home here. We have a role to play. Like beaver dams and hills, beehives.
Our presence on this earth isn't meant to be destructive. It's meant to be part of the ecosystem. I think one way to think about it is we need to lean into giving in to what's already occurring. Because I have good news. The truth is, we already belong to the world. Poof! We did it. We are already intrinsically linked to the rest of existence. Flowing and evolving with it. Every year, Western science is finding out more and more how true this is, which it initially did not set out to prove.
Maybe another way of thinking about the question how do we belong to the world is how do you belong to a place? How do you feel at home there? How do you treat the rest of life as family? These are questions we all need to answer in our own way. It's not about finding the right answer. It's finding the one that fits with where we are and who we are. A couple of years ago, I got a text from my friend that said they were finally developing Ashbourne Dam.
I knew this day would come, but I guess part of me still hoped we'd wake up in time to find another way. I hadn't lived in Philly since childhood and my parents had moved away too. But I knew I had to drive down back to the land between the endless mountains and Pine Barrens and see it for myself. I tried to emotionally prepare, but my heart still sank when I came to the intersection. The thickets and thorns were gone.
The golf course turned meadow was now a desolate dirt pile stretching for half a mile. Cookie cutter houses were being installed. It was a weekend and the place seemed empty. So I walked like a ghost to the wasteland. Recording videos on my phone as I went, Oh, shoot, there's a bulldozer here. You see me? The guy in the bulldozer turned off his engine and walked over. The kid in me felt caught red handed. I guess I never have been allowed to be here anyway, but this guy didn't shoot me away.
I think he was happy to take a break and talk. So what's the plan for this area? It's going to be a development. Housing. How long? These are all houses like everywhere. You see these blue signs? Yeah, they're all singles, lots housing, lots have houses off of this house, everything else goes all the way. When I was a teenager and it was abandoned here, I would come to my friends and we would explore. And it was like such a special place. And so I grew up like my house was on a dead end street.
It was woods all the way back into the next industrial park. So it was probably half the size of this and it was great and Industrial Park came in and bought out the buildings. And so yeah, now you've got trucks up and down the street and everybody in and out. It's crazy and how it is. Somehow talking to that guy helped a little. This was literally a dude destroying the place I loved, but I knew he wasn't my enemy. We're all just stuck enacting the same old story.
As I was leaving Ashbourne, I stop on your golf course asphalt path. It started to fissure and crack half my lifetime before. And now a young pine tree grew in the cracks. Its needles almost totally covered the pavement that it was slowly shaking off. There are cracks all around us in the restrictive systems we've built, and then the mythologies we tell in those spots, new life grows. I remember that Ashbourne was not just the old country club or what grew up.
Once it was abandoned, Ashbourne was this the crack in the concrete and what grows in that opening? And I realized Ashbourne is everywhere. If we as a species are to continue our journey in the world, we must change the story we're enacting one that doesn't view us as the master species, but as a member of the community of life. It's up to each of us to answer the question of how we enact this story in our lifetime. Our change minds will lead to a change world. It won't happen instantly.
But give it time and it'll grow. In a sense, Ishmael was just the beginning. Daniel Quinn wrote new books, each delving deeper than the last, like the story of Be My Ishmael and Beyond Civilization. We'll explore these as well. Further down the road. But in 2018, after struggling with his health for several years, Daniel Quinn passed away. It was actually from pneumonia, the same fate he'd written for Ishmael all those years earlier.
He was 82. Daniel Quinn dedicated so much of his life to sharing a vision for our journey. Where we go now is up to us. Thanks for listening. There's one person out there who witnessed the ideas in Ishmael take form firsthand. Without her help, they would have never been shared with the world. That person is Daniel Quinn's wife of 50 years.
Renee, on the next episode of Human Nature Odyssey, Renee will join us for her first ever interview, and we'll get to hear her invaluable insight, perspective and stories that have yet to be shared. Until next time, where do you see the cracks in our mythology and what grows there? Talk to you soon. If you'd like to support Human Nature Odyssey, please share it with a friend. Subscribe wherever you enjoy your podcasts and check out our Patreon.
If you're hungry for more on these topics, that's where you'll find it. We have interviews, bonus guests, additional writings, transcripts of episodes and audio extras. If you believe in what we're doing here and want to help keep it going in the future, your support helps make that possible. Our theme music is Celestial Soda Pop by Ray Lynch. You can find the link in our show notes.
And thank you to Jesse, Stephen, Michael, Gary, Coby, Fig, Dan and of course our voice actors for this episode on and then Indian.