Hi there, and welcome back to Hugo's There. I think since it's been about a year since I started Hugo's There 2.0, I'm going to stop calling it Hugo's There 2.0. It's just Hugo's There. And this is going to be a relatively normal episode where we're going to be talking about a nominated...
fiction. And in this case, it's actually a trilogy of books that were all nominated for the Retro Hugo. And in this case, it's the C.S. Lewis Space Trilogy. We'll talk about that title for it as we go along. But my guest is Evan Bradkey. Hi there, Evan. Hi, Seth. Thanks for having me. Yeah, yeah. What should people know about you? I am a tax collector from northeast Wisconsin, and I like...
Reading really everything, but I certainly have an affinity for sci-fi. I also am a runner. Oh, nice. What's your preferred distance? I haven't been training the past couple months, but as far as races go, I won't get out of bed unless it's a half marathon. I can do a 10 mile on my own, whatever. Okay. Yeah. Whereas I won't get out of bed if it's a half marathon. 5k is like, I can do a 5k. I can, I can pretty much, you know, roll a 5k without training too much. Right. But, uh,
it'll hurt a little bit, you know? So by way of introducing the space trilogy, and I do want to talk about like... Is the space trilogy really the right word for it? And we can kind of get there as we talk about the three books. I think the way we'll structure the conversation is kind of start by talking about C.S. Lewis, in case anybody's unfamiliar with him, and then kind of go into some overall thoughts about the...
the books and the trilogy, and then we'll kind of dive into each one separately. And I don't want us to go for three hours, so it'll be brief conversations on each book. Sounds like a plan. Okay. So yeah, any background that you have on CS Lewis that you want to share? Yeah, so C.S. Lewis was a medieval literature scholar. And he died in 1963. So he lived 1898 to 1963, actually on the same day as John F. Kennedy.
the author of Brave New World, Aldous Huxley, interestingly. And he is maybe most famous as an author for the Chronicles of Narnia, the sort of the juvenile... fantasy series that is filled with Christian allegory. And, you know, in contrast, this is the space trilogy is a adult oriented. sci-fi Christian allegory series of books. So he had, but he, in addition to that fiction, he wrote a lot of nonfiction and,
theology. He was a Christian convert, a close friend of J.R.R. Tolkien, and part of a discussion group called The Inklings with poet Owen Barfield. Tolkien himself and some others. And so Lewis is, I would say, more a popularizer of theology than a... He wasn't doing innovative, creating new theories or doing particularly innovative theological things. He was a theology communicator. Yes. Yes. In the way that, say, Neil deGrasse Tyson is not. Yeah.
doing what Albert Einstein did, with all respect for what he does. Yeah, it's interesting, too, when you think about all the stuff that you learn about the Inklings. And C.S. Lewis is kind of beloved by... Evangelical Christians, I would say, are big fans of C.S. Lewis. And it's so funny because there's a whole strain of evangelical Christianity that's very, not ascetic, but suspicious of people who drink or smoke. Right, right.
The Inklings, they were just sitting there smoking their pipes and cigars and throwing back beer. Yes, yes. But in a very collegial, kind of quintessential English pub way. Yes. Because one of the themes of that hideous strength, which we'll get to, that comes up again and again is when... The protagonist is sort of drifting from what he should be doing. He sort of numbs his conscience with alcohol repeatedly. And that's a consistent theme there.
And I mean, you mentioned that the Chronicles of Narnia do have that strong allegorical kind of bent to them. Yes. And, you know, I agree. It's definitely there. Tolkien wasn't a big fan of that, right? I think he described the Lord of the Rings as a fundamentally religious and Catholic book. But there's nothing explicit in there, right? He wasn't trying to say, hey, by the way, Gandalf or Frodo or Jesus, right? Where in the Chronicles of Narnia, Aslan is definitely Jesus. Right.
And yet, I do think that in terms of the accessibility of those books to people who are non-believers, right, or non-Christians. you can read them and miss all of that. If you don't have the background in the basics of Christian thought, then you can read it and it's a perfectly readable fantasy. The kind of Christ figure trope is very widespread in fantasy.
Absolutely. Yes. And so, like, my friend across the street had read The Chronicles of Narnia when he was a kid. I didn't come to them until as an adult. But, you know, they were not a church family at all. But, you know, he loved the books. Yes, yes, absolutely. And I think that's, you know, our civilization, for good in my opinion, but whether for good or for ill, is fundamentally, in so many ways, a Christian inheritance.
Western civilization. Yes, not strictly speaking American, but yes, Western civilization. all the values that, you know, Tom Holland's book, Dominion, Tom Holland is a historian, not, not Spider-Man, Tom Holland kind of talks about that a lot about how Christianity. Through the Roman Empire and then after the Roman Empire really inverted the value system that had been in the ancient and classical world in so many ways. And so, yeah.
You know, it is, I think, I don't think C.S. Lewis would be offended to say it is the myth that, not myth in the sense of false, myth in the sense of story. we tell ourselves as a civilization that shapes everything. Right, yeah. And I think Christians get their knickers in a twist when you say that...
something in the Bible is strongly mythological, right? And you're talking about that from kind of a literature, you know, and not the genre of it, but what it's doing, right? This is the story this people is telling themselves. Absolutely. Yes. And even there's elements certainly in the Bible where Jesus is using hyperbole and humor and all those things. And if you are going to take a text...
seriously, sometimes that means not everything in it is literal, actually. And that's a, you know, there's sort of a valid source for debate and discussion. around a lot of issues, but I think actually to read everything literally is in a certain sense illiterate. Yeah, absolutely. So I was talking about the Chronicles of Narnia and having that allegory in them and yet being very accessible. And I would very easily recommend to people, if you've never read them, they're terrific.
a lot of fun. They go down really easy. You can, you can easily sit down with one in a single day and get through it. I've done it myself where I went through the entire trilogy in a week or not trilogy. Sorry. Seven books, is it? Yeah. I've gone through all of them in a week. And it's not like the Douglas Adams, right? All five books of the trilogy. All seven books of the Chronicles of Narnia trilogy.
And I want to get your opinion on this. I would hesitate to recommend the space trilogy to the same person that I might. recommend The Chronicles of Narnia. Just because I feel like there's some things in it where it's, and maybe this is the question, right? Is a non-Christian going to enjoy these books? I would say, I was thinking about this.
and i would say they would struggle with perilandra um i think you know in rough sort of punchy one sentence one or two sentence outlines uh out of the silent planet is in the tradition of wells H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, kind of a fun exploration story with some interesting philosophy and theology. Yeah, I won't try to say the extraordinary voyage. thing that is, you know, in French, right? All the Jules Verne stuff. Yes. And Perilandra, if you are not interested in the, you know,
the Garden of Eden story and an allegory of that. It's, it's a, it's a beautiful story in a lot of ways. Um, but there are, there are parts of Perilander that, that kind of drag. And I think would, would. So would do so even more for someone who is not interested in or hostile to the Christian tradition. Okay. And I think that hideous strength is... up there with 1984 and Brave New World as far as a compelling depiction of a certain type of dystopia. Okay. So I would agree.
Definitely agree with you as far as Paralandra. You know, it's a trilogy that can be read separately. I would not recommend reading Paralandra on its own. if someone were you know just looking to dip their toes in the water depending on what they were interested in i would recommend this or their preferred type of science fiction i would recommend giving
Um, out of the silent planet or that hideous strength shot. Okay. I think I'd have a hard time recommending that, that hideous strength just because I, I feel like, and we'll get to it when we talk about it, where it's a little more. a little more in your face about some things where Paralandra, I, I mean, I just love Paralandra. And so, so I'd be like, yeah, yeah, read that. It's, it's kind of like a take on the creation and fall narrative in the Bible. And.
I think it could be enjoyed in that way, unless that was totally not to your taste. And that's the other thing, right? The genre here. Out of the Silent Planet is Lord of the Rings, more than Star Wars, right? Where there is... a space voyage and that kind of you're like, well, that's science fiction. Yeah, but it's done in that very kind of literary way that doesn't make a whole lot of sense necessarily. Definitely not hard science fiction. And so to me, it's more space fantasy.
And also just because, you know, to somebody who is not a religious believer, right? Angels, the Oyarsa, right? They're a creature that reads more fantasy than science fiction. Yes, that's a fair... I don't know. I think if you, and Wells was, pardon me, Lewis was very cognizant of writing in the sci-fi tradition throughout Out of the Silent Planet.
tongue in cheek says, you know, this isn't like what, what, what, what, uh, you know, he'd read in his, his Wells. Right. Yeah. He named Jack's Wells. Yeah. And, and he makes a point to say, you know, to explicitly say on the, on the notes. before the story i i'm name checking wells out of respect i really like you know out of honor should we are there any other kind of overall thoughts on the trilogy you want to get through or we can circle back to that at the end
I think we can probably circle back on overall thoughts. Okay. All right. So at this point, I feel like I haven't necessarily recommended these books to everyone. But they are on the... Retro Hugo list. So if you want to check them out, I think they're worth reading. What's your history with the trilogy, by the way? So this is the second time I've read it.
I picked it up because I'm a fan of C.S. Lewis through Chronicles of Narnia, as well as some of his other theological works. So yeah, it's just my second time reading them. That's my history. Yeah. For me, I didn't come to a lot of C.S. Lewis until I was in college and taking classes like Christian classics where we actually read the Screwtape Letters and some other stuff, right? And then I didn't read the Chronicles of Narnia until I was... 23, something like that. And...
My wife actually took a full semester long class on CS Lewis. And so, so she had a couple boxed sets of books. And so I just read all of them because that's just kind of what I do. New books appear in my house and I read them not so much anymore, but you know, like anytime. my son read something in high school I was like oh sure I'll read Life of Pi I'll reread The Lord of the Flies 1984 just to kind of stay abreast of what he was doing
But yeah, I read these ones. I don't know if I actually read those ones in college. I know that I read them as a young adult. And so when you kind of sent the email and you had suggested several different options, and I thought, you know what, I should revisit the Space Trilogy just because they're on the list. And it's been...
25 years since I read them. So I was glad to revisit them. So let's go ahead and start talking about what the individual books are. So we'll start with Out of the Silent Planet. Sure. So Out of the Silent Planet starts with a philologist, basically a study of old languages and texts. I actually think Friedrich Nietzsche's degree was in philology. Wasn't Tolkien as well? He was a, yes, or a linguist. Yes, one of those similar.
I kind of think of them as the same term, philologist and linguist, just one of them sounds cooler. Well, and one sounds more... scientific, which is something that confers a certain dignity, but also in some ways divorces, ignores the literary element of it. Yeah, so Elwyn Ransom, the philologist, is out on a walking tour, and he is asked... So he's looking for an inn to stop at. And he runs into this woman. And I just want to pull up this quote because it's so classically Lewis and it's funny.
the kindly old landlord on whom he had reckoned had been replaced by someone whom the barmaid referred to as the lady. And the lady was apparently a British innkeeper of that Orthodox school who regard guests as a nuisance. Throughout Lewis's writing, he has a very kind of gentle, humorous way of sort of illustrating who these characters are and their flaws. But it reminds me almost of Jane Austen, where it's not mean, it's funny.
have a line that i think you you said uh from the horse and his boy uh the opening line there of there once was a boy called eustace scrub and he almost deserved it right right right i know that's uh The Voyage of the Dawn Treader. Oh, yes, yes. Okay. And Austin opens Pride and Prejudice with, it is a truth universally acknowledged that a single man in possession of a fortune must be in want of a wife. Right.
Just sort of the little gentle irony that's soft. And I think there's something, it's easy to be sarcastic and harsh and cynical.
And sometimes characters deserve that and people deserve that. But there's something refreshing and enjoyable about reading about a softer touch. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So he's initially... going you know looking to to find a place to uh to stay for the night and he is uh this woman uh says her Harry has been kidnapped by these two people and sort of sends Ransom to go get Harry, who's important to her.
Ransom kind of breaks into this state where he meets Divine, D-E-V-I-N-E, who he went to school with and didn't really like, and Weston. and divine and weston kind of harry escaped and and ransom is kidnapped and they launch a spacecraft from their backyard. Right, right. Yeah, they drug him and then put him aboard the spacecraft.
yep yep and uh and there is a you know in terms of the the sci-fi element there is the the um they are rotating the ship to generate gravity um and there's certain elements of the spaceship that have kind of an of sci-fi realism to it. To 1950s sci-fi realism. Yes. I guess 1930s, 1940s. Yeah. Right. Yes. Lewis is writing this in 1938. So given that he was not a, you know, kind of a.
hard sci-fi writer. There's just little touches that really place it in the sci-fi universe. Yeah. I never really got the impression that they were rotating it for gravity. Or that they had, you know... artificial gravity or anything i know at some point they were rotating it and and part of it was that one side of the ship was very hot because it's facing the sun right yes yes and so they're going around basically unclad because it's so warm in the spaceship yes yes
And it's got a fun – some fun kind of – not pre-scientific, but like not a lot was known about space exploration in those days, right? Certainly not on – you know, campuses, English departments, right? It's art major physics, right? And there's been, I can't remember what the name of the paradox is, where basically the idea is, well, if...
Essentially, there are an infinite number of stars in the universe. The Fermi paradox in the Drake equation, right? No, no. It might be Fermi. But essentially, why is space black? Right. In the visible spectrum. Right. And the expansion of the universe and the redshift and all that kind of stuff actually explains it. Where if you look in the X-ray, you look in a different non-visible light spectrum. Yeah, it is all lit up out there.
But for Lewis, right, space is very bright because now you're out of the atmosphere and you just you have the sun there. Space is very bright. And, you know, you talk about the name of the trilogy or the space trilogy. I think you could call it the cosmic trilogy and get at what Lewis is getting at here, which is space is the heavens with spiritual beings. that are you know that sometimes
operate on planets, but you are sort of closer to the heavens and those spiritual beings when you're in space. Yes. Yeah. And here, I mean, talking about the cosmic trilogy, I want to talk about the cosmology of it because essentially the cosmology is that, yes. Angels and spiritual forces are real. But what we have as our kind of Western, you know, the art of Christianity, right? Our idea of beings with feathered wings and that kind of stuff is a small piece of it.
And they're not just operating here on Earth, they're operating on other planets as well. And it kind of reminds me of some of the Divine Council stuff that I've been reading from Michael S. Heiser. Yes, Michael Heiser is fascinating. where it's almost like a council of the gods, right? And of course, Oyarsa, I guess, is Oyarsa the generic term? Because they have like the name of the planet, right? Yes. Yeah. So it's...
Yeah, it's Oyeresu is the plural, I believe, but you're an Oyarsa of a planet if you're, roughly speaking, the divine being. in charge of a planet. Right, right. And that gets into the title here, Out of the Silent Planet, right? There's something wrong with... Or something has gone wrong on Earth, where essentially you have had the Oyarsa that is in charge of Earth is bent, right? Has gone rebelled.
More or less. And so it's similar to, you know, stuff like you'd see in Paradise Lost or other conceptions, or at least a take on that. Yeah. So this ship is, well, so as he's... kind of exploring space and and they are go and he's not sure where he's going turns out he's going to mars yes and he hears that he interprets overhears a conversation uh that he's that he's going to be turned over to the natives as a sacrifice. Yes. So he kind of keeps his guard up. And when he...
You know, they land on the first sort of encounter with the, as soon as he can, he escapes and he runs away because they are trying to turn him over to the, and I would say that the Sorns are. perhaps the most humanoid of the species, and they're sort of weaker gravity, so they are really tall and lean. But kind of imposing as well. Yes, yes. Yeah, so Ransom runs away and he runs into a forest and he finds that he can eat some of the plants. Vegetation, yeah.
and drink the water um and and then he meets a cross uh and and they are Would you say kind of dog-like? Yeah, I kind of pictured them almost like Wookiees, actually. Oh, yes. Not quite as large. Somewhere between Ewok and Wookiee. Were there a little more simple, right? Yes. But yeah, and they kind of help him along, right? And he gradually, he's a philologist, right? And so he starts to decode the language.
Yes. And that I think is depicted as, yes, very, very, it's very interesting to me. I've always been interested in languages. And I think it is maybe the most kind of. I don't know if realistic, but, but, but, you know, this was, uh, CS Lewis worked on languages and understood languages and how people would, um, set, you know, learn them. So, um, that's very well depicted. in my opinion.
Yeah. And so when I said that the book is more Lord of the Rings than Star Wars, I kind of pictured the Ross as more or less like the hobbits, just larger hobbits. And then the Sorin were more like men. And then what is the name of the more dwarfed? Phil Triggy are kind of the dwarfs. Yeah, they're the craftsmen, right? And so that's where that comes in. I don't remember if they were described as small, but they're certainly described as being the craftsmen of the world.
Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, you know, this, so this book was written in 1938. So you have, in my opinion, it really reflects the worldview of someone in a. Small, rainy island, part of an empire that was controlling a quarter of the world at that time. Yay, we can build a ship, put some metal together, go to Mars and learn the language.
Yeah, but it has both sides of that, right? It has the more innocent side of that with Ransom. And then it has Weston and Divine who are like, well, we've put our stake here. This all belongs to us now. And we're going to turn the natives into... cattle or chattel or both. Yes. And divine is sort of vain and motivated by money. And Weston is, in a certain sense, more idealistic. He really believes in...
I guess you'd call it white man's burden or cultural supremacy. Yes. Yes. Uh, dominating, um, other, other species and other planets. Um, and, uh, so.
And then you have Ransom, who is sincerely curious and excited to meet these other species. So he's kind of coming to fit into the... village life with the Rosa and He is goes on a hunt and On this hunt he he manages to kill the the water beast that's significant to the Rosa, but he, he experiences the, the, the elders or the, the spiritual forces telling him that he needs to go to meet.
Oyarsa, the ruler of the planet, and that he should have gone earlier. And when he is starting to leave, Divine and Ransom shoot one of the people he's hunting with. So the Rosa kind of give him instructions as to give ransom instructions as to how to get to meet Oyarsa. So the instructions they give him are... Could have been better because they send him to a very high elevation where the air is very thin. And he's directed to go to a cave where he meets with a Sorn.
who actually does help him and give him oxygen and all that, and who actually carries him a significant chunk of the rest of the way to meeting Oyarsa.
Let's see, am I missing anything so far? No, that's about it. So what I'll say about this book is it's not an anti-climax, but just stuff sort of happens and then the book's over. And there's not sort of a traditional... arc to it to me right there is a climax of the book but it's not that much yes yes i i agree with that and and i think this was you know
necessarily kind of part of C.S. Lewis doing his project. There's a didactic element to it. It's not always story for story's sake. It's story for... the sake of doing, you know, communicating a message, which, which can be a little clunky at times, but yeah, so he, he goes to, so this, this Sorn, Agri, helps him get to Oyarsa. And there's, he goes to an island where the Phil Triggy, who are roughly, yeah, roughly speaking, the dwarf, the miners, the craftsmen, and Sorns, and the Rosa are all.
essentially worshiping the God of the planet. And there are some really interesting sort of carvings and artworks and things that reflect a cosmology. that is uh sort of rhymes with earth cosmology there's a there's a you know venus which is uh which is clearly a feminine they're they're on malaconda or mars which is clearly outlined as masculine yeah and some yes so sort of reflecting lewis's view that
There are these universal myths that are just true everywhere. Yeah, and he absolutely was drawing on this sort of traditional... I can't remember what, like the five heavens or something, seven heavens or something, cosmology. And I found some videos where somebody, there's a scholar who wrote a book, and I can't remember the title of it, that's all about kind of the way.
Lewis, uh, enact that in the Chronicle Narnia and in the space trilogy, but it's good stuff. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, yeah. So, so, so he goes to the, um, to meet with the. Oyarsa, or essentially the god of the planet, and learns that Earth is called the silent planet. Right. Volcandra. And it's because Earth's Oyarsa, which is clearly...
Satan is bent and has sort of perverted all the instincts. Because Malachandra is not a paradise in the way that Paralandra... is right right but it is not fallen in the same way that earth is it's maybe somewhere in between um and each of these three because you know the philtriggy the sorens and the um The Rosa, they all have their purpose and fulfill it, and they're not trying to dominate each other. They all have common language as well.
Yes, yes. So they never had a Tower of Babel event, right? Right, right. And so there's... And that takes a while for Ransom to kind of wrap his head around. Oh, these are all kind of rational species, irrational animals, or now. And they all fit together. And it's not about one's in charge of the other. They all bring something different. Which is hard for an imperialist person to understand. Yes. And it is hard for a human with...
on earth to, you know, just from earth to understand. Yes. There's, there's a, throughout Lewis's, throughout this trilogy and throughout Lewis's work, there's a sense of, and heck, even in Tolkien, needing to have a respect. for nature and the role it has. And it's not sort of something to be dominated and exploited. We all
We need to fit into it. Yeah, that reminds me of the magician's nephew when they're in Narnia right at the creation event, right? And Uncle Andrew thinks, well, we can just bring raw metals here and it'll... You know, the world will bring forth ships and things, right? And it'll be a great industry thing. And Lewis is like, yeah, no, that's no. That's not a good idea. And there's a fun.
conversation that goes on between, because of course, Ransom has learned the language and he can, he can, and he can see the, uh, Eldil, right? Yes. Or Eldila and Weston can't. And his language is very imperfect. And it's kind of amusing that he's talking in me, Tarzan, you, Jane kind of language. Well, he's trying to sort of – bully what he regards as these primitive natives. He's trying to give them a couple beads for the island of Manhattan. Exactly. It is a genuinely...
hilarious scene because Weston's trying to, sorry, Ransom is trying to translate it. And Weston is, he thinks they're all dumb and he's the idiot. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Who doesn't understand anything? Who doesn't understand what's going on? Well, and too, just the fact that he knows just enough of the language to try and get his bullying points across just reminds me of some of the history of...
colonialism where, where like you establish a pigeon and then you never really want the person you're talking to, to progress past that. You don't want to learn their language. You keep them down with the language. Right. Right.
Because it keeps them from being able to say complex things. Yes, that's a good point. We said earlier that in some ways this book reflects the confidence of... of an empire um but it is very explicitly anti-imperial yes um in in its message um yeah so so divine and weston are also brought to this island And, and so at first Weston is trying to kind of bully them and that just doesn't work. And it's this really funny scene of, of what does this idiot think he's doing?
What does he think he's achieving here? And then a little bit more kind of a disturbing side is he thinks he's going to be killed. And he gives a speech about how... you know progressive scientific evolution demands that um that the stronger win sort of might makes right uh combined with darwin and uh there's there's there's the comic side of it and there's the i think a little more serious critique of of a philosophical view too yeah
I think we could probably leave off with that book and not – I mean, they end up back on Earth, right? Yes. So that further adventures can happen. Yes. And Oyarsa, they offer to let him stay on Mars, but he – says he has an obligation to his people. And so they go back to Earth and further adventures.
So then Paralandra, which I guess I didn't mention at the top right out of The Silent Planet, comes out in 1938, and then 1943 we get Paralandra, which is the continuing adventures of Ransom on another planet. And this time it's Venus, and like you said, it kind of evokes that.
the feminine over, you know, Mars, obviously Aries, right. The war, the, the, the traditional classical kind of understandings of masculine and feminine. And, um, right. And I, I, was always enchanted with this book and in in both The first two books, I did enjoy some of the language of just, here's Ransom rambling around the country, just looking for a place for a pint and a pie, right? Yes. And a place to lay his head. And it's just sort of very…
very fun. But, but every time I reread them, I'm like, I want to get to the other planet. Right. I'm impatient for that. And I was impatient for that in Paralander as well. And I don't really remember what the setup was. So maybe you want to talk about the beginning of it. Yeah, so the setup is so Elwyn Ransom has really been transformed by this changed understanding of the universe and the spiritual forces.
that are real and so he is kind of continually talking to maybe talking isn't the right word but in contact with these forces and he is uh told hey we got a mission for you And he's ultimately sent to to Paralandra or Venus to counter an attack. that is being launched by Satan. So he's sort of magically transported in this casket vessel and clothes are unnecessary. uh, on this planet. Um, and it really is a, an, an Eden like place. Um, and there's the, uh,
There's floating islands that he has difficulty walking on until he sort of gets used to how you... Yeah, gets his sea legs kind of... Right. I always loved that imagery of the flexible islands, right? Just floating around this world, not the fixed land, right? That's right. That's right. Yeah. And it really is... some really beautiful language um and and beautiful images that are that are evoked i don't you know the in terms of almost lyrical language i would compare it to almost
you know, parts of childhood's end by Clark. I don't know. Are there, are there, is there anything? What would you compare the kind of lyrical imagery? Yeah, I mean, to me, it brings up Paradise Lost, which is, you know, very lyrical, right? It's literally done in, I don't know. Daxilla kexameter or whatever it is. Daxilla kexameter. And this isn't that, but it is still evoking that story. And so like we mentioned, this is the most kind of explicitly
Oh, we're doing a Bible here, right? Yes. He meets Eve, the Eve of this world, right? Yes. And I can't remember, was she ever given a name? She was the queen. Yeah, that's right. I mean, and at the end, I think she's Tyrendryl. But throughout most of the text, she's the queen of the planet. Yes. And here, Paralandra is in a pre-fall state, right? So it's still in original innocence.
Me as a, you know, leaning more progressive Christian kind of these days, I don't really buy original innocence. I don't think it, I think it was said. It was a theology that was created for a particular reason, but we don't have to go into all of that. But it still is really fun to think about what does it look like to continue in a state of innocence?
for, you know, all time. Yes. And that's really the challenge. Um, so what's, what's, what's going to happen here and, and, and Weston from, uh, from the, from the previous book is ultimately the source of this, uh, you know temptation um yeah in in this sort of garden of eden yeah he basically becomes a serpent right yes yes well i i don't know about serpent per se because
He's clearly possessed, possessed. Yes. So Weston lands and he is, and, and, um, Ransom is with this woman in this period, periodozaical environment. And he, he sees, he recognizes. this is a threat and stay away from the, you know, these people in this woman. And, but at first Weston is, he is very much saying he's a changed man that. But in this very, you know, I believe in all spirits type of thing. It's sort of a, I don't know what type of faith would be like, but it's...
Certainly not Christian. Yeah, more of a pantheist kind of thing. Yes. Pantheist, right? There's spirit in everything. Absolutely. That's a good, yes. When you try and nail him down, what do you believe? It's very slippery. And then eventually he becomes possessed, clearly, by a demon. So Ransom's challenge. is to keep... So the one rule that Malaldil, who is sort of the supreme god of all the planets, has is do not...
stay on what they call the fixed land. Right. Uh, and Weston is trying to convince her to, uh, to stay at that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so you end up with Weston being the little devil on her shoulder, right? And Ransom being the little angel. Yes. And so... There's a lot of philosophical debate back and forth, and Weston has some advantages in that he doesn't need to sleep. Right.
You know he's a demon because he doesn't need to sleep. I thought it was very evocative, the scene where Weston trying to take advantage of this basically keeps Ransom from sleeping. Yes. Ransom. Ransom.
You know, just periodically calling out his name to keep him from being able to rest. Yes, yes. Very effective and interesting. And he's going around and harming little creatures as well, right? Oh, and there is the... where he's, and I didn't mention it in the first book, but the whole vivisection thing comes up again and again with sort of Lewis's skepticism of science.
I don't know, skepticism of science taken too far, I guess. Right. In some of his nonfiction work, he talked about vivisection. Yes. So, you know, it comes up certainly in... that hideous strength and uh and but uh weston here it's first it's sort of the frog creatures that he he just kills a bunch of them just plays them yeah and it's it's a really
horrifying description. It's very visceral, yeah. And then eventually he makes clothes for the queen. You need some clothes. Right, to appeal to her vanity. Yes, yes. And where does he get the feathers? He brutally kills a bunch of birds. Right. Right. Yeah. And I mean, it's very much when you think about like the garden narrative in the Bible, right? That Eve looks at the fruit and sees that it is appealing to the eye and also good for knowledge. You know, there's more than one.
aspect of it that's appealing to her. Weston is trying to appeal in as many different ways as possible. Yes, and trying to appeal to her vanity and to appeal to her as a woman. Yes. Who is somehow wronged by the world around her and needs to violate the rules for there to be some greater sense of justice.
Yeah. I mentioned that Weston was the serpent, and I think you're right in correcting that into more where he is kind of possessed right there. But he's not innocent, right? Because he set himself in opposition. And it reminds me of the narrative of the Exodus where the Bible talks about Pharaoh hardening his heart to what Moses is asking for. And then later, the...
The emphasis shifts to God hardened Pharaoh's heart, right? To where you set yourself in opposition and now you're stuck in that. And I'm going to put you on that path for my own purposes. Yes. Weston clearly, in terms of Christian theology, you do things that let demons into you.
right um and and so it you know let the demon in and now and there are these really sad moments when you see um weston you know oh is that is that that person there that's actually still suffering right right he snaps out every now and then right the the real weston peeks through every now and then um but it's you know it's only in moments um
So, and it's just, you know, that real person is getting weaker and weaker and more and more diminished. Yeah. Yeah. So they're kind of having this extended debate and eventually ransom. Starts to perceive, I need to sleep. He doesn't need to sleep. Things are trending in the wrong direction and realizes he needs to physically fight Weston. Yes. So there's a...
You know, kind of a physical fight of kind of a boxing match. And then they're both really injured. And so the humans on this planet are able to essentially call animals to them to do their will. And so he is, you know, Ransom is chasing Weston on this sort of dolphin fish thing. And eventually they land in a tunnel.
in a cave and then ransom ultimately has to throw weston into a pool of lava to end the demon's presence on the planet it it uh it just reminds me of obi-wan versus anakin a little bit Yes. The confrontation of good versus evil there. And yeah, he ends up essentially below ground, but on the fixed land. Right, right. Yeah, and one thing, so Weston is the only one with clothes.
throughout the most of this yeah that's one thing that kind of uh sets you know sets him apart um and of course in the original garden narrative why do you need clothes because you're naked how did you know you were naked yeah right right and that was you know part of that temptation that ultimately she didn't choose to wear clothes um yeah you end up with a with a long discourse from from perilandra the the
The ruling deity of each planet is just the name of the planet. Malachandra was the one from Mars. The trilogy makes clear, too, that they're not physical in the same way that we are. They can be in multiple places at once. And so that's why he's able to talk to them even when he's on earth. And there's a long dialogue that keeps having the term blessed be he.
And it's very, it reminds me very much of like, if you've ever read any of the prophets of some of the language there. Yes. Yeah. And this is why I say if you're not sort of interested in. in christian theology you would struggle with with with parts of this yes yeah because it's it's all about
the, you know, the, the allegory here and the fall and how, um, how humans are supposed to, to, to relate to, to God ultimately. And I can't remember who said it. I wrote down the line and I think it was ransom saying it too. to the queen. Whatever you do, he will make good of it, but not the good he had prepared for you if you had obeyed. Yes. And that's very much like Lewis definitely doesn't sit in the reform tradition where everything is laid out just on the rails.
Yeah, yeah. Where there is a trajectory of the will of Meleldil, right? Yeah. Where he'll course correct you, but you might not end up where he wanted you originally. Right. Yeah, and... So the book ends and Ransom meets with the king and queen and the god of Venus. And Ransom is... Sent back, you know, kind of celebrated as a savior and sent back to Earth. But, you know, also told there's a battle coming on Earth. Right. Prepare for it.
Yes. And Weston at some point has these terrible nails, right, on his fingers. Yes. And he ends up wounding. ransom in the heel, which I'm sure is straight out of, you will crush his head and he will bruise your heel, right? Out of Genesis. Absolutely. And so that wound carries over to the next book.
Yes, yes. So yeah, I think that's really, I mean, in terms of one thing to say about Paralandra, it was written during World War II. And there's some, you know, several references to Ransom saying... okay, I'm struggling here, but there are people dying in trenches back home. And it is the book during the war that is about kind of a direct confrontation.
So it's sort of a thematic fit there. Yeah. And it makes sense for an author like Lewis, where he would have someone like Ransom, who's essentially the author proxy, right? Who had served in the earlier war. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So yeah, let's move on to that hideous strength. And this is by far the largest, the longest of the books. And this was written in 1945 or published in 1945. Yeah, probably roughly the length of the other two combined, right? Would you say?
Yes, definitely. And this is one that I enjoyed Out of the Silent Planet the first time I read it. I found it a little bit of a slog on a reread, even though it's short. So a short slog isn't as bad as a long slog. Where Paralandra, once you get to... to kind of all the debates and stuff. I really, really enjoy it. There is some soggy stuff toward the end of that as well. Or that hideous strength I really struggled with the first time. And some of it is that it's, it's like Lewis taking.
King Arthur, Brave New World, Star Wars, and the Book of Revelation in a blender. Yeah, the Arthur stuff doesn't work. I think if he had excised the Arthur stuff, it would be a tighter narrative. But it's very British, right? And I wonder as Americans, without being kind of steeped in Arthurian legends, and I'm not sure that everybody is anymore, but I feel like there's stuff that...
The original audience reading this probably got it better than we did. That's fair. Have you done the Once and Future King? I have... The Sword in the Stone was a Retriego winner. So yeah, I did do that. Okay. Yeah. I mean, that's a wonderful retelling. Yeah. all of the elements of the once and future king are well the the sword and the stone is like the the the ya portion of it and the rest of the once and future king is not forgets that's yes yes um
And nonfiction, that author T.H. White was kind of a troubled man. And there's a really good nonfiction book called H's for Hawk written kind of interweaving the story of... This author of the nonfiction book, Raising a Hawk with T.H. White, who was raising a hawk and really struggling with T.H. White was gay. That was obviously not, I mean, it was illegal until the late 60s in the UK.
So struggling with that, struggling with other aspects of his life and how that contributed to the story he ultimately wrote. Yeah. So one thing that I've gotten negative reviews, I've kind of stopped even looking for at reviews for the podcast because.
one negative review that I got was, you know, he seems to think that he needs to apologize for all the old science fiction. And I'm like, I'm not apologizing for it. I'm explaining it and setting it into context and saying, you know, some of these books aren't exactly the most progressive things that you're going to read.
And here, you know, we already talked about this is in a very sort of Western civilization, Christian worldview that it's coming from. And I wouldn't say that His Strength is a progressive book. In many ways, it reads as an anti- progressive polemic, at least against the kind of progressivism in academia that Lewis was seeing. And he said in the introduction to the whole trilogy that, you know,
Yeah, the main character is an English professor. Sue me. This is the world I know. Yeah, and anti-progressive bureaucracy. Yes. In all its forms, in government and in universities and that. And I think one thing you said in a previous podcast is, you know... Heinlein wrote a lot of books with a lot of different ideas. You can disagree with some of his themes, and that's fine. But to pigeonhole an author, especially someone like Heinlein, who did not...
I mean, Stranger in a Strange Land and Starship Troopers and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. Like, those are three... Those are mutually incompatible philosophies, right? And they're all fantastic books. And, you know, sometimes you just got to take a book. And I think... You know, C.S. Lewis wrote a really great essay called On Reading Old Books. And he would be talking about books from the 1700s or 1800s. But he really eloquently challenged people. You know, our era has blindnesses.
And the way to see what we're blind to is to read from other eras. Yeah. Yeah, I remember reading that essay where he said, look, it's fine to read contemporary novels and contemporary works. But, you know, alternate. Read older stuff too. Yes. Yes. So... But you should probably return to that hideous strength a little bit. Yeah, yeah. And this is definitely the least space book in the space trilogy, which is I do think the Cosmic Trilogy makes more sense. Yes. Because it's all set on Earth.
And this is the confrontation that was coming. Yes, your exciting sci-fi novel that starts with a university selling land and discussion about appointments to university positions.
Trade disagreements from prequels, right? Yes, that's a good one. Yeah, so it starts with Jane and Mark Stuttuck. And Mark is an academic and Jane is... a wife and and she's a phd candidate right before she married yeah yes yes and that is a kind of part of the tension and resentment and challenge that's going to be kind of pushed throughout the book um so Mark Studick is a sociologist at Bracton College in Edgesto. And so they are debating the sale of this land called Bragdon Wood.
And it is, as it turns out, where Merlin was buried. Right. Yeah, and they're selling it to the National Institute for Coordinated Experiments, or NICE. Yes. Interestingly, there is a... part of the national health service in Britain has the acronym nice. So Lewis may have been, uh, making a lampooning that yeah yes yes um it's interesting how they set up the kind of uh bureaucratic trench warfare um throughout the the novel studock always wants to be part of the
the inner ring, wherever that is. So at Brackton College, it's the progressive element. And the progressive element sort of disdains the conservative traditionalists and wants to sell the land and sort of controls things behind the scenes. They set the agenda and manage the agenda so that the sale is going to be approved, but they describe it as certain transactions.
that may be beneficial to the college in this very obscure kind of bureaucratic way. Yes. Obfuscation. Absolutely. Absolutely. So after the deal, after the land is sold, One of the insiders from Nice, called Lord Feverstone, but he's actually divine from Out of the Silent Planet, approaches Mark about joining the Institute. While this is going on, his wife is having some bad dreams, or what she thinks are bad dreams, involving a convict, Al-Qassan, who was executed, and he sees...
pardon me, she sees Al Qassan kind of being experimented on, you know, saying, I would rather die than have this done to me. And he is, you know. Alka-San's head is talking and operating on its own. Right. And she's just kind of terrified of this. And so she meets the wife of one of her tutors, Mrs. Dimble. who sends her to Miss Ironwood, who lives in a manor in St. Anne's. And so, you know, Mark is, this time he's kind of interested in his career advancement. The thing about Mark is...
He's never actually interested in the work of sociology, it seems. He's always interested in being an insider. And so he has this position. Jane is experiencing these these weird dreams and anxiety and they kind of have a have have a spat um and then mark goes to nice uh where he gets to know some of the the people at their at their headquarters headquarters in bellberry
He keeps asking, so what would my job be? No one can ever tell you what his job is. There's a very good comic element to it, too. Just almost kind of office space. if you've seen that movie of what do we do here? Yeah. Yeah. It reminded me a little of severance. Um, I don't know if you've seen that show. I don't think so. Where, where they're sitting there and like,
They never have explicit instructions on what they're supposed to be doing. Okay. It's just like, you'll know the bad ones when you see them in the... on the screen that just kind of reminded me like the vagueness of what exactly are his duties you know he's just advancing and that's that's the most important thing to him and meanwhile he's not recognized that his wife is really unhappy
Yes, yes. And he meets another fellow at Bracton there, Bill Hingist, who is, I would say, a real scientist, like a chemist. And Hengist tells him to get out. And Hengist leaves and he is murdered. And Jane has a dream of that murder. So Jane visits Miss Ironwood. And Miss Ironwood tells her, your dreams are visions of true events. Yeah. I think it's around this time that Jane meets Ransom, correct? Yeah. They call him the director. Yes. And what is it? Mr. Begins with a B. The bear.
Mr. Boltitude. Boltitude, yes, yes. So Ransom is the director of this seemingly amorphous institute at St. Anne's. And he's gathered the... A few people around him, and a talking, or not a talking bear, a bear, Mr. Bultitude. Right. Yeah, and it's worth noting, too, that some years have passed, right? And yet Ransom still looks...
like a relatively young man, right? Because he's because of what happened to him on Paralandra, right? Because of the influence. It reminds me of the shining face of Moses kind of thing. Yes, yes, yes. And he can't age, but he does have that wound in his heel that still hurts. Yeah. So yeah, so Ransom is still kind of in contact with these. We are spiritual beings. And yeah, what next? Well, then you have kind of a dueling things that happen back and forth with the director.
I think he goes by Mr. Fisher King, right? Yes. To really set obvious that there's Arthurian stuff going on here. And his forces are working against the kind of progressive forces of Nice. Everybody's trying to find Merlin. And it's kind of amusing when the progressive side thinks that they have Merlin. Yes. But he's just a tramp. Yes. Yes. And it's, yeah. You know, Lewis is really good at making comic scenes. You know, and yeah, so everyone's looking for Merlin. And meanwhile, nice.
proceeds with the sale of the land they are essentially tearing up this charming country university town edgesto and building you know big buildings and they are yeah uh inviting a workforce deliberately not familiar with Native customs, and participate in starting a riot. Yeah, the false flag, too, to justify taking over the area. Yeah, and Mark's first actual job is to, before the riot...
write newspaper articles for different newspapers arguing that the riot proves that NICE needs to be given its own law enforcement power. Yes. Yeah, they're co-opting the press, essentially, for their own use. Yeah, and one is sort of for what would be kind of the tone of the New York Post, one being kind of the tone of the New York Times, all trying to justify the same thing.
Jane is kind of returning from the Institute when she gets arrested and tortured by the nice police by, by fairy hard castle. Yes. Yeah. And because she had been, she, she, Jane had been talking to the director and the director said, well, I want you to try and rescue your husband, essentially. And then she's. arrested and eventually let go and just go straight to the manor. And while this is happening, Mark is never a very consistent person.
He has these moments where he wants to leave. And then he's always dissuaded. So, you know, at one point it was, you know... They really want to get their hands on Jane. So they are trying to get Mark to bring Jane to nice. Right. That's the only thing he's really good for. Yes. Yes. And then they say, well, you know, your wife's not doing well. He is about to say, my wife's, you know, suffering some kind of mental breakdown. I need to be there. And then he is dissuaded after.
after an interaction with the deputy director, Wither. Right. And Wither is like Ransom, doesn't sleep a lot. And he has these, you know, he's... as it progresses, clearly also possessed. But he has more of these... More of the moments where you can see kind of the two personalities, where there is a real wither who is sort of a hapless bureaucrat that just talks nonsense. Yeah. Everything he says is super vague. Yes. Yes.
a way that again it's very comic um when he says something when he's he's talking in this way yeah um but but he's clearly you know possessed too and kind of able to use threats and bureaucratic cajoling to advance a demonic agenda. Well, and we didn't even really talk about the quote head, right? Yes. Which normally when, if you didn't know better, right, you'd think the head, well, that's the person in charge. Well, no, in this case, it's a head. Yes, yes.
The formal director is this Horace Jules, sort of a populist journalist type who's not worth much. But the one who's actually in charge is, you know, they took... the criminal Alka-San's head. And there's this physician, Phil Ostrato, who thinks that his whiz-bang medical machines are animating this head. But it's not. It's a demon. Yeah, so much of what Phil Ostrato says reminds me of all the idea of uploading consciousness into a computer. Yes.
um which i'm like anybody who's ever worked with computers for long enough knows that's not really a great idea because it's not like they always keep running yeah and i mean i i have to say the whole you know in terms of current events the whole neural link thing is Candidly, pretty disturbing to me. Even if it's possible, what's being promised, I don't think that's a good thing. You also have Professor Frost, who...
He knows what's going on, right? And he talks about the macrobes. Yes. Which are larger forces. They are the demons that they are, you know, dark spirits that they are in contact with. And that are animating the head. Yes. Yes. Yeah. So those are, I mean, there's really, you know.
what three people that kind of really know what's going on yeah yeah and in terms of like my criticisms of the book there there are a lot of characters and it was pretty hard to keep track of who was who i had to keep going to the the wikipedia article and looking at the cast of characters Yes, that's a fair. Where the other books are very succinct, right? In Pearlander, you have Weston, Ransom, the Queen for most of that book, and that's it. Yes.
Yeah. So, so at this stage you know, Jane has a dream that that Merlin is waking up. And so they, so. Ransom concludes that they are looking for the body of Merlin. Ransom thinks that Merlin is sort of this spiritual force that will likely fall in with whoever gets to him first. Right. And then, you know, while this is going on. So the nice bosses.
So Mark lost his wallet when he got to Bellberry, to Nice, and he didn't make a report about it. And this, of course, like, you know, Chekhov's gun comes back. Guess whose wallet has been found by Hengist's corpse? Marks. And so they try and blackmail him into kind of committing to signing on with them. Yeah, and bringing Jane in. Yes, yes. And so this actually prompts him to leave. Right, yeah, that prompts his come to Jesus moment, right, where he kind of has his foxhole conversion.
Yes, I will. Hey, I'll go to the police and try and straighten this out myself. But he is arrested for the murder of Hengist and then kind of transferred to the nice police. So during this, the St. Anne's, it's, let's see, it is Jane because she has the dreams so she can help find Merlin and Dimble and Denniston.
two of the men at the St. Anne's group. And there are some nice personnel that are all kind of trying to chase down Merlin. And the St. Anne's company meets him, but he rides away. And the nice group... captures a tramp that Merlin, whose clothes Merlin had taken. So that's kind of a source of ongoing comedy is there's this... you know illiterate tramp who the the fancy progressive nice people are are trying to charm and talk to into
working for them. Yeah. Yeah. And so eventually they're able to essentially figure out that Merlin, no, Merlin is on their side. Yes. And he's almost the inversion of what happened with Weston.
In Paralandra, where he more or less, I won't say gets possessed, because that has a negative connotation, right? But like, is filled with the spirit, right? Yes, yes. Of Oyarsu, or of all of them. And he goes in... too nice essentially acting as a translator right right well i'm going to translate for merlin right yes because nice had to outsource this because they weren't good with the language now remember right divine
could have learned the language was you know plenty of these you know there were opportunities uh early on to learn the language if you were really curious or anything like yes so and then so merlin takes uh the tramp through uh and demands to kind of go on a tour of nice and while this is happening um the formal head horace jewels is like at a banquet
And Merlin releases all the animals that nice has been torturing. And it's another anti-vivisection thing. Yes. Yes. And it's a very, again, another really funny scene where. There's just this absolute chaos where... Oh, it's grim, though. Yes, yes. And it starts with, okay, Horace Jules is talking gibberish, but no one's really paying attention. And then Merlin sort of casts...
the curse of Babel, he called it. He said, yeah. And they, uh, so no, none of them can understand each other. Yes. As in, you know, the tower of Babel. Um, and while this is going on, the animals are.
released and a lot of people are killed at the banquet um who it is uh not weston it is uh wither and and strake and filistrado that go to the head at this point right right right and they the head you know the demon says i need a new head so they they kill filistrato this one's not good enough um and then wither kills uh Strake, who is this reverend who sort of just believes in power and has come to serve nice. And then Wither gets killed by Mr. Bultitude.
Who then finds his one true love in the woods. Yes. Yeah. One element that we didn't touch on that I wanted to is Mark is sort of being tortured in...
the objectivity room, or the normal room, where everything's just slightly off. The door isn't quite the right size. It's on a wrong angle. And eventually there... asking them to do um asking mark to do sacrilege to you know to condemn um you know to to stand to stamp on a cross that type of thing um but there's uh you know the the whole element of
People, this is important to Mark's coming to Jesus of, you know, there is an objective truth. There is beauty. There is order. There is right. And they are trying to. train that out of me by putting me in this objective room. I don't know if I'm quite doing it justice. Yeah. I feel like you kind of have to read that one. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, on reading, for me, it is as compelling as O'Brien.
interrogating Winston Smith. I was going to say it's very evocative of 1984 in that way. Although I guess this one precedes 1984. Yes. Yes. Yeah. It was, it was written in 45. Yeah. Objectivity room instead of room one Oh one. Right, right. And sort of very much of a piece with Lewis's belief that there is objective standards of right and wrong, and that part of them is beauty shows us truth.
you know, to borrow from, from Keats and truth beauty. Yeah. Or even, even Andy Dufresne from the Shawshank Redemption, right? I'm talking about hope. Yes. Yes. Yeah. And, and I, you know, I think when it comes to. to architecture. The buildings you live and work in either reflect an appreciation for the human or a contempt for the human. Are they designed to intimidate or do they fit in with their built environment?
Yeah. Yeah. So Merlin helps Mark escape from prison and they go to St. Anne's and Ransom and Merlin are both kind of like Enoch and Elijah. in the Bible, sort of just taken away. They don't die. It's implied they go to the paradise of Venus. Right, right. And I think earlier, I can't remember if it was Merlin or someone who basically offered to heal.
Ransom's foot and he essentially said this is my thorn in the flesh and you know it will be healed when I'm judged more or less right when I go to my rest Yes. One other part that I think people would probably find a little problematic just because of some of the – The fault in Jane is essentially she wasn't submissive enough to her husband. She was resentful that she didn't get to continue in her studies and her career, and it ends up with them kind of reconciling in this bridal chamber.
Right. And I really, I was, I was really hoping that Jane was going to become the new Pendragon because there was something earlier in the, in the novel that essentially said like Merlin was really had no use for her. Right. And it was like, well, you were supposed to have. a child that was supposed to be a key figure here, but it's too late for that. Yes, you're right. That's a key element. The dissolution and eventual repair of their marriage is a key driving plot. Mm-hmm.
No, not that I think that husbands and wives shouldn't be reconciled to each other and live happily ever after. It's just, I wouldn't mind a version of it when it's less about, well, the default with you is that you're not complying with the feminine norms. Right, right. Yeah, because it starts, I mean, the book starts with Jane being resentful because she doesn't have anything to do after 11 o'clock.
And the domestic role that she's not happy with. Yeah. You mentioned earlier that Mark kind of progressively drinks more and more. Yes. And, you know, Mark is just kind of a pathetic character. And that's kind of why I wanted Jane to be fronted more as the main character. Because I would struggle to sort of say, is Mark the protagonist? Because he doesn't really drive the plot.
very much. Pathetic's a really good word. Yeah. Who is the protagonist? I don't know. I mean, Mark is the figure, I guess, most involved in the story. Maybe. Well, he's most at the center of the story, but involved is a stretch. Yeah, that's fair. Yes. Where I feel like Jane is much more crucial to actually what happens, and yet she's a woman, and so she's sidelined.
Yes. And that may be just blind spot at the time. Yes, he was. Yeah. I mean, Lewis wasn't even married until he was in his middle age. Yes. And it was, it's probably going a little too far to call it an immigration scam. But it was not a, but it turned out to be a very good marriage and a real love. And he actually wrote, A Grief Observed After His Wife Joy Died. And it's a really wonderful... That's a tough book. It's a tough one, but it's a really beautiful meditation on grief.
Yeah. And, and yeah, so I was, I was surprised when I realized that this was written in 1945 because it very much reflects a post-war world. like right after the war has ended. Yeah. And there's something of, you know, I think I said in my notes, the type of bureaucracy that was necessary. to fight world war ii that nice maybe represents the worst elements of that um the sort of faceless monolith that is vague and that you can't you know hold accountable and runs your life in a lot of ways
Yeah, yeah. So what are your overall thoughts on this novel? I mean, this was my favorite of the novels. Okay. If I were telling someone to try one of the novels, I would say That Hideous Strength. it's um you know there's uh the throughout the you know earlier in the earlier books the criticism of of vivisection there is this nice is constantly promoting objectivity
Or, you know, putting the science in charge, whatever the science is, it's never actually very clear what the science is. And that's something that... sticks with me when it comes to current events, candidly. We had scientists in charge of deciding to do gain-of-function research. And now there are millions of people dead because we put scientists in charge. Sure.
If someone who just spent a lot of time watching horror movies saw, hey, let's make diseases more dangerous in labs, they would just say no, and there would be millions fewer dead people. And so I think... and this is pretty explicitly something Lewis was critical of, and that I agree with him on, is that science is a wonderful tool that ultimately needs to be submitted to greater principles.
non-scientists to right and wrong to common sense things like that yeah yeah i can see that and you know there's a tipping point where where all of a sudden it's Now it's official science, you know, that's right. It reminds me of the planet of the apes where, where Dr. Zaius is like, you know, theology has nothing to fear from science, true science. Yep. Yeah. It's science is a tool.
Just like capitalism. Capitalism is awesome. It seems to have made us relatively wealthy. But, you know, it has its downsides. Yes. Yes. And so we as humans. set up our societies not to serve abstract science or abstract free markets or abstract capitalism. We can, we should, I would argue we must deploy our human judgment above the science. Right.
I mean, this one definitely is more explicitly Christian in that the term Christian is used frequently, right? And Jane explicitly converts to Christianity. Yes. And so to me, that makes it a tougher one to recommend to just anyone, right? Whereas I feel like somebody could read Paralandra at least, you know, the first two thirds of it and really enjoy just sort of that exploration of innocence.
And then at the end, it might get a little preachy. Yeah. I mean, the language is beautiful in Paralandra and some wonderful scenes and some really interesting philosophy. I think that... We struggle to write the most compelling. It's easier to write about how... hell or suffering is make it interesting than paradise. And I was like, I mean, for me, it was like, okay, you know what?
20 pages of all the fruit is delicious and everything's great. And that was about enough for me. Okay. That's, that's the way it comes out to in people talking about how, well, heaven sounds boring. Yes. There's an element of that. Our minds. don't really, we're too familiar with suffering to understand what it would be like to not have that. Yes. Yes. And we're too, arguably too familiar with, not familiar enough with.
you know, paradise or goodness or whatever to write compellingly about it. Yeah. Yeah. In my opinion. Any other thoughts on the, on the trilogy? Anything else you want to talk about? I don't think so. I think, you know, C.S. Lewis is a really great stylist. And it's really... you know, relaxing and enjoyable to read. He's kind and sensitive to his characters, even the demons that, you know, you sort of see how they give themselves away.
even if they're not likable characters. And he's a really good stylist that, you know, whether it's one of the, one or all the books in the space trilogy or. I think Screwtape Letters is fascinating. Again, heavily Christian, but it's got more than pure theology going on. And of course, Chronicles of Narnia are just a...
a joy as well. So, and I think especially with his role in the Inklings and his relationship with Tolkien, if you're a speculative fiction reader, sci-fi or fantasy, this is an important figure to try. You might not like it, but, you know, like, oh, I'm a big sci-fi fan. I just have never read H.G. Wells. Well, try it, you know, if you're really trying to get a sense of what's, you know, the scope of speculative fiction.
Yeah, and it's definitely of its time and set in a particular place. And I can't help but wonder, would somebody who's in academia get some of the stuff, especially in the third book, better than I would? I work in government, so maybe the comedy of silly bureaucracy.
lands a little more with me. Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, you know, I definitely recommend them, especially if you've read like The Chronicles of Narnia and you want to, like you said, kind of be well-read as a speculative fiction fan. I do think they're worth reading. And, you know, if you're a Christian or even like if you were raised in the church and are not particularly church anymore, I think some of the stuff will resonate with, you know, stuff you remember from Sunday school. Yes.
And I have no idea how it would hit for a person who was an atheist or hostile to religion. Yeah, I mean, I might say that I would start with Out of the Silent Planet, just because it's such a fun... exploration book that lays out the geography and language and species. And of course it's got its perspective, but there's just a lot of cool exploration, you know, fun. All right. Well, Evan, as we move towards signing off, do you have any social media presence you want to?
give out for people to find you i i do not have anything to to promote thank you so much for having me and hopefully we can uh do something in hey if you do pride and prejudice i do want to be uh All right. You know, that one, I might have to do a panel discussion because I'm sure at least one of my sisters will want to be on. Just so that they can argue for the Colin Firth adaptation more than the Keira Knightley one. I haven't seen any of the movies, but... Okay, okay.
They're both good. I do like the lengthier one. And yeah, one of these days I need to get back and finish that. I was going to actually mention that to my sister at Christmas when I see her just because... I had started reading it and would like to go back and finish that because it's kind of delightful.
All right. Yeah. And I mean, people don't know that that was one of the books on your list. And I said, you know, it would be kind of funny to have two guys talking about Pride and Prejudice. It's a great book. Greatest. Greatest opening sentence in all of literature, in my opinion. But there's a lot of competition there. There is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
All right. Well, Evan, thank you so much for reaching out. It was a long time ago that you reached out and I was like, well, I'm booked out for another year or so. But yeah, thanks for doing this. Thanks for having me and being flexible on my schedule. Yep. No worries. All right. Bye now.
Talk to you later. Bye. Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that discussion with Evan about a really interesting book trilogy. And I'd love to hear from you if this is something that you've read, especially if you're somebody who isn't churched or isn't coming from the same perspective that I am. I'd love to hear.
how these hit somebody with a different background than I have. Happy New Year. Of course, this is the first episode that comes out in January. So happy 2025. I mentioned a couple of episodes ago that I was trying to build my network over on Blue Sky, just because it feels a little bit like Twitter used to feel.
So if you still have not followed me there, I updated my handle. So it is at at hugospodcast.com. So if you look that up on Blue Sky, you'll find me or Seth Heasley, you'll find me either way. But the network is starting to build there, and it's really cool. I'm really enjoying kind of being over there. And I'm still posting stuff to any site I have access to. I've been trying to be better about that.
I am pretty well fixed for guests for some time, so I won't put out a plea to have people volunteer. But as always, if you want to pick an item off the Mondo list of award winners or pitch me something else, do go ahead and reach out to me.
me at feedback at hugospodcast.com or find me on one of the social media sites. I am accessible there. If you want to support the podcast, you can join the Patreon, which you can find a link in the show notes. You can buy me a coffee, buy me a book, I call it. And that's also in the show notes. I also want to start off the year by making sure that you are aware of Take Me to Your Reader, my other podcasts. We had a really fun episode that we did in December about the hunt for red October.
I think that's a particularly good episode just because of... Podcasting is cool. The kind of networking that you can do, the kind of things, the experiences that you can have through just reaching out to people is really cool. And that's one of the episodes where something of that happens. I don't want to spoil it.
And I think that's going to do it for this episode. So thank you so much for listening. And I will talk to you next time. Bye. The theme music for the Hugos There podcast was composed and performed by Tim Kusky.