Transform Pain & Trauma Into Creative Expression | David Choe

I'm a severe gambling addict. Every single addiction is gambling addiction. If you drink and drive, you're gambling. Addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. People, what are you running from, Dave? I was like, well, I'm f***ing.

I'm running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I hate myself. So I'm just running. So as long as I'm like doing graffiti, running from the police, you know, just hopping on a train, like... literal running like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second like what are you doing Dave I'm playing drums in a band I'm you know at a casino I'm

traveling, doing the news for Vice, I'm painting at this, like, I can't, I can't sit still, because that means I have to sit with myself, and I can't do that. I can't do that. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is David Cho. David Cho is an artist.

He's a highly accomplished painter, graffiti and street artist, writer, podcaster, and television host. Many of you are perhaps familiar with David as the guy who famously painted the original Facebook offices, took equity for the job, and got rich. Now that's a wild story, but David's whole life journey, what he did prior to and after that, and what he has overcome along the way is a million times wilder. As he shares today, David grew up hearing and thinking that he was destined for greatness.

but also hearing and thinking that he was a total disgrace. Today, he talks with complete openness and vulnerability about addiction, about cycles of success and failure, and about channeling and overcoming deep shame.

Today's podcast is unlike any other that I've hosted. David is wide open about his childhood abuse, his massive success, then career setbacks, relapses, and transmuting every possible emotion into art along the way. So no matter who you are, David's story, and just as importantly, how he's living right now, how he shows up on this podcast, will change what you think is possible for you in life.

It will force you to look inward and to use whatever joy and pain you have inside of you to be the best human being you can possibly be. David Cho is, as we say in science, an N of one, meaning there is no other like him. Yes, because of his incredible art, but also for his willingness to share so openly and honestly so that others can benefit and grow.

I consider it a true honor and privilege to host David on this podcast, and frankly, it's impossible not to love him. This one is incredibly raw and honest. It's also full of surprises, many of which are fun surprises.

So buckle up. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is, however, part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science-related tools to the general public. In keeping with that... today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with David Cho. David Cho, welcome. Thank you for having me, man. Huge longtime fan. Love your art.

I've been super inspired by your YouTube channel. I watch it sometimes before I do my drawing or I prepare for a podcast. What are you drawing? I draw a lot of anatomy on top of some... So I do neuroanatomy on top of some paintings that my friend Tim Armstrong has been doing. Musician at Leeds Center. Is it anatomically correct or is it like exaggerated or is it? This is a really good question. So. In essence, it's anatomically correct. Yeah. But...

Around the turn of the last century, two guys, Cajal and Golgi, won the Nobel Prize for drawing the nervous system and showing these things no one had seen before. And they stripped away everything except the essential piece. I'm going to compete with you. I'm going to compete with you. Yeah.

I don't like what's happening in your painting studio. Okay. Just from what you said so far, it's not good. Okay. But it's good because you did that and then now we have to strip that away. We have to get at the core of it. Because painting is... Wait, weren't you in the middle of complimenting me? Like, keep going. I mean, I love your YouTube channel. I watch it before I prepare podcasts and before I paint or draw.

And I'm back to drawing a lot now. And I live, I converted an art gallery into the living space. And somehow I thought that that would make me more inspired. But it turns out it does. A lot of things do, but I think the key with anatomy and trying to teach science with drawings is can't be too much detail, can't be too little detail, otherwise people are overwhelmed.

It's the best thing for, I think, everyone. But for someone like you who spends a lot of time in your head, I always say the longest journey you'll ever take in your life is from your head to your heart. And to be... an intellectual person you just live a lot a lot you like you try to rationalize and apply logic to everything so painting is not that music is not that creating is not that it's just to get to this

But it sounds just in the little that you've explained that your painting is very methodical. Super meticulous. I want to include every cell type. What's your threshold for positive affirmations? Can I go now? I mean, I like to think I have a thick skin, but who knows? No, it's all love. Okay. For anyone who's watching or listening, this is my first time meeting Adam. Andrew. All good.

There you go. Yeah, all good. All good. You knew my last name. You know what? I was thinking about my friend Adam. All good. That you know, that I used to skate with, I think. Adam Krohn? Yeah. Yeah, I was just thinking. Upper Playground. Yeah, Upper Playground.

Yeah, he worked. His dad owns Krohn's Shoes in Palo Alto. He wants to reconnect with you. Man, Adam Krohn and I grew up together. He had a mini ramp in his backyard. We hung out, we skateboarded, and then he started Upper Playground, the Walrus. That's...

That's it. He's your homie? I used to work for, I did tons of graphics for Upper Playground. Wow. Does anyone call you Andy? My skateboard friends call me Andy. So, yeah. But that's it? Like, no one in the medical, like, science world? Not anymore, no. Not really. That would have, like, you start your podcast and you do your, you're like, I'm Andrew Huberman. I'm a professor, yep. Like, I'm going to be all over the place because I'm nervous being here right now. I hardly do podcasts anymore, so.

I'm going to be all over the place. It's going to be sloppy. This is your canvas, man. Have fun. Well, I'm just meeting you. I already called you the wrong name, which is horrible. I hate the black. I hate it. like the studio this you with the black t-shirt the black mugs the black like i don't like it for you you know because i used to

I used to only wear black because I was like, I'm a painter. I'm always dirty. I don't want to like, you know, you could see the ketchup stains on my sweater and it's like, okay, that's, that's fine. But I just, colors are very important. in not just painting but like the palette for your house or you know like um most people talk about in the modern age modern man is

You know, and I just make shit up so you could correct. You're like the facts guy. But I feel like most people, human beings alive today, are going to die a very... It's mean to say boring, but just the same death, right? You'll most likely die laying down in a bed or hospice or in a hospital bed. You know, it's just like no one's dying. Like, I know there's other countries where there's war and famine, but I'm saying...

modern city, you know, like there's not like a hero's death, right? So it's just, it's all the same. And then you just, you know, the drive here in traffic, it's like everyone either has a black car or a white car or a gray car. And then you get to their house. And their house is a beige or a white. And you're just like, we only got one of these. You know, whatever your views on the afterlife are. But this is it.

This is it. Like, this is it. And it's just like people get mad of like, oh, I spilled paint on the floor. Like, I got a scratch. I'm like, paint everything. Paint your fucking car. Paint and make your, my kids drew my sweater. It's my favorite, you know, like. I like that sweater.

You know, so I walk in here and I go, fuck, dude. Like, and I'm projecting on you now. Like, when I wore all black, it said a lot about where I was at in my life. And I don't know where you're at because I'm just meeting you. But it's like. everything is black on black like black on the black t-shirt black mug back and it's like white t-shirt for my dream my my uh selfishly my dream is like this podcast would start

Instead of saying, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, Stanford scientist. It's just, hi, I'm Andy. Can you Photoshop a white T-shirt on? I'd wear a white T-shirt. I don't know. I don't like black. For me. I have hardly ever black clothes anymore. I want to add as much color because I just, maybe that's the season I am in my life or the time I'm in.

Yeah, I appreciate you saying the nice stuff. I never thought I would be a YouTuber, but that's providing a lot of joy in my life. And so I want to say to you, I'm meeting you for the first time. I've never seen you clean shaven, but I imagine, I mean, your beard and facial hair to me look very cute. You're very handsome. Your voice, when I hear your voice, immediately is soothing.

And I feel like this is a very kind person. Like once again, without having like now I've met you for like five minutes. I'm like, oh, this guy's super awesome. But, you know, like these kind of parasocial relationships where. I could go even, I don't know how hard you want to go today, but like, it's like, I meet people all the time and then I meet them and it's like, I've already met you. Like we've already talked. I don't know what your views on telepathy and spirituality. And it's like.

it's just everyone will meet everything's gonna happen the way it's gonna happen and everyone's gonna meet who they need to meet it's like all energy right you put this like I could sit there and go, why does Andrew Hubern want to meet me right now? And it's like, well, what am I putting out in the universe? And what is he putting out in the universe? And do the souls connect in that way? So I said, if I ever meet him, I just want to tell him how.

cute he is how soothing and relaxing and like there's something very um this is the invisible ingredient in like everything in art is did the person care Right? Like, I don't care how skilled and crafted, whatever. Like, did the person care? And like, when you do stuff in your voice, the tone, the frequency that's hitting my... my soul is like oh i don't know everything that guy's saying he's using some big words but i feel like he cares and so i i said if i ever meet you and um

I know a little bit from us talking on the phone, but I don't know your whole backstory. But I'm like, also, I project a lot and I make a lot of assumptions, which that's a defect that I'm working on. But I just wanted to say, like, even though. you had a horrific traumatic childhood like the fact that you're here you're alive and that you're doing all this good stuff it like it makes me emotional because i'm like i i don't even know you

And I appreciate what you're doing. And you're still a little bit immature, but progress, not perfection, right? So I think that's it for now. But I just wanted to tell you. all that because I, I feel that way about you. And I, I, you know, I like, I'm a big, sometimes you feel stuff and you're like, I'll text it to them or, or maybe, you know.

And I just go, no, if I feel that, I just want to, especially if it's love and positivity. I know I started by telling you how much I hate your decor and your interior decorating, but it's because I like you. Like I wouldn't, if I did, if I like. If I'm like, I don't give a shit about this guy and I don't want a relationship with him, I would never say anything. But I'm like, this...

I don't know what the science behind it, but being surrounded by this much black cannot be good, right? It can't. We're walking into a black hole right now. I don't know. Anyways, that's what I wanted to say. Oh, man.

Well, I'll take that in. Thank you. A lot there. Thank you. Were you able to take it in? Yeah, I was able to take in some of that. All right. When you call me Andy, it's a different part of my persona just because that names carry a lot. Oh, yeah.

Thank you for that. I'm going to take that in. And I get this little voice in my head that's saying, I want to be very clear. I had some rough... aspects of my childhood i've made good amends with my parents so we're good now i say that to uh you know uh for all the reasons people can assume but here's the thing i knew

somehow that we'd eventually crossed paths. I just didn't know when. So you say the telepathy thing. For me, I was a postdoc at Stanford. That comes after PhD. You do like five years. It's kind of like a residency. And I'm from the South Bay. And I didn't want to go back to the South Bay because as you know.

No disrespect to the South Bay, a lot of interesting things come out of there, but it was pretty devoid of the things that I like, which normally are in cities like art, live music. It used to be like that. Grateful Dead, we were in Palo Alto. I saw Fugazi play at the Edge on California Avenue. There was a lot of interesting things about politics, but it became very right angles when the tech industry really exploded there. And in 2007, when I was a postdoc, was when...

You were muraling at Facebook. I learned that later. Yeah. But. That was a time when I was back there for my science career and I was pretty miserable being close to home again. Honestly, I didn't want to ever go back there for a while. It was not healing. But when I learned your story. about muraling at Facebook and some of that, I was like, oh, there was at least one other person here who was like in the kind of...

spiritual, emotional fight with what the South Bay is. And then I realized that I heard an interview with Ian McKay from... Meyer Threatt. And it turns out he had been in Palo Alto because his dad was an academic or something like that. Of course. And he had skated some of the same ditches we had. And so there's a history of people being really frustrated with being there.

Really good Vietnamese food. Is there really? Yeah. Oh, in Palo Alto or the South Bay. Yeah, South Bay. Oh, yeah, Castro Street, Mountain View. Yeah. And it's changed a lot, but... Take me back to 2007. I don't know how you feel about historical stuff. Okay, so I'm definitely down to time travel and time jump and all that, but because...

My, I'm older, I'm 49 and my attention span is just completely fried. I'm going to, I'll just say right now, I'm going to get a lot of dates wrong. Like I'm not like, you know, things. People are like, that's, you know, like. 2007 was when the Facebook offices were what kids from the South Bay called the neck of University Avenue, right before it goes under the train tracks. As soon as you're on the other side of the train tracks, Caltrain.

It becomes Palm Drive, and it's up to Stanford. So those offices now are Palantir, which catches a lot of heat for other reasons. But those offices, right as you go under the train tracks, for us,

There was a curb cut right there, and there was a board slide thing. And so for the skateboarders, it was one thing, but then that was Facebook offices. And years later, I heard David Cho was merely at Facebook. So how did that come to be? I'm going to be like... very sloppy like i said and it's maybe some of the stuff because sometimes um it's the way i treat talking and journalism and podcasts is like

it's like a story in my own head someone else is like just shut the fuck up and answer the question right but like for me when I paint I don't sketch I go straight to finish and I so sometimes I'm figuring out what I'm trying to tell you because you ask me a question that's very direct but I The way it went into my head was very abstract because I'm so if you let me do a little paint mixing, I hope I'll answer your question. But do you.

Do you know Pee-wee? I'm wearing it today. Do you know Pee-wee's Playhouse? I knew, oh yeah. I met him actually. Paul Rubens? Yeah, at a photo show of Mike Muller and Sage who draws. Butterflies on Mike Muller's sharks and animals. And Pee Wee Herman, in his thing, in his suit, the whole thing, walked up. Laird Hamilton was there. Nice.

And he walks up to Laird Hamilton. There are a bunch of people around. Everyone's trying to get to Laird. Laird's like a... This was 2017. And I was in West Hollywood. And Pee Wee Herman walks up and he goes, I have to meet you. And Laird's like, and the best thing is Laird just goes, oh, hello, what's your name? Like typical Laird. Like Laird's a real gentleman always, you know.

He didn't know who Pee Wee Herman was? I couldn't tell if he knew or not. And he's like, I probably wanted to meet you, this kind of thing. And I was like, no way. And he had the whole thing, like the shiny lips and the thing. And I was like... That's Pee Wee Herman. That's amazing. I love that. Yeah. All right. Well, I mean, I'm definitely going to have to tell you my Pee Wee Herman story at some point.

I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Eight Sleep. Eight Sleep makes smart mattress covers with cooling, heating, and sleep tracking capacity. One of the best ways to ensure you get a great night's sleep is to make sure that the temperature of your sleeping environment is correct.

And that's because in order to fall asleep and stay deeply asleep, your body temperature actually has to drop by about one to three degrees. And in order to wake up feeling refreshed and energized, your body temperature actually has to increase by about one to three degrees.

Eight Sleep automatically regulates the temperature of your bed throughout the night according to your unique needs. I've been sleeping on an Eight Sleep mattress cover for nearly five years now, and it has completely transformed and improved the quality of my sleep. The latest eight sleek model is the pod five. This is what I'm now sleeping on and I absolutely love it. It has so many incredible features.

For instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called Autopilot, which is an AI engine that learns your sleep patterns and then adjusts the temperature of your sleeping environment across different sleep stages. It'll even elevate your head if you're snoring, and it makes other shifts to optimize your sleep.

If you would like to try Eight Sleep, go to eightsleep.com slash Huberman to get $450 off the Pod 5 Ultra. This is part of Eight Sleep's extended holiday sale, which goes from now until December 31st, 2025. Eight Sleep ships to many countries worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. Again, that's eightsleep.com slash Huberman to save up to $450 now through December 31st, 2025.

Today's episode is also brought to us by Element. Element is an electrolyte drink that has everything you need and nothing you don't. That means the electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium all in the correct ratios, but no sugar.

Proper hydration is critical for brain and body function. Even a slight degree of dehydration can diminish your cognitive and physical performance. It's also important that you get adequate electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, magnesium, and potassium are vital for the-

functioning of all cells in your body, especially your neurons or your nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it very easy to ensure that you're getting adequate hydration and adequate electrolytes. My days tend to start really fast, meaning I have to jump right into work or right in.

to exercise. So to make sure that I'm hydrated and I have sufficient electrolytes, when I first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 to 32 ounces of water with an element packet dissolved in it. I also drink element dissolved in water during any kind of physical exercise that I'm doing. especially on hot days when I'm sweating a lot and losing water and electrolytes.

Element has a bunch of great tasting flavors. In fact, I love them all. I love the watermelon, the raspberry, the citrus, and I really love the lemonade flavor. So if you'd like to try Element, you can go to drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free Element sample pack with any purchase. Again, that's drinkelement.com slash Huberman to claim a free sample pack. For me, art as a kid growing up, like the trifecta, my holy trinity of...

children's education, art, entertainment is Mr. Rogers, Bob Ross, and then, of course, Pee Wee Herman. I mean, Pee Wee Herman had Lawrence Fishburne, Gary Panter, Mark Mothersbaugh, like Danny Elfman, like he just... he was like the ringleader of all this creativity and he had like mecca like a high mecca hiney ho and do you remember the do you remember the secret word the secret word was like if anyone our age that's watching people's playoffs it was like

Today's secret word is, I don't know, what's our secret word today, Rob? Microphone. Microphone. And if someone says microphone, scream real loud. So can we do that today? Sure. All right. I'm counting on you. I want you to scream the loudest. And you don't take a pee until we take a pee. We got an agreement on that? Okay. All right. I hated the South Bay. I just... I have all the typical artist traits. I'm clinically depressed. I'm bipolar.

I have all the process addictions, food, sex, gambling, shopping, workaholism. Thank God I don't have any of the chemical addictions because I'm allergic to everything. severe OCD, severe antisocial traits, you know, I just highly sensitive, you know, so I just coming here today, like.

you asked me and i kept texting like i don't know we did this like dance for a few months and uh i uh if i'm just being honest with you like i i don't i don't know how to not be me you know and sometimes like I put a mask on and I I'm like I think this is what Andrew wants me to be today but I you know I didn't even meet you yet and so

Every time I've done Joe Rogan or any other podcast, like, I don't know, I just feel comfortable doing my own YouTube or my own podcast. But anytime anyone else asks me, it's such a, I know who I am. and sometimes I don't and sometimes I figure that out and it's sometimes you meet people on the street at pavilions or at the supermarket and they're like I and it's like this parasocial thing where it's like I know you I relate to you I

And there's something about that where the intimacy of meeting another human being and then just showing them your heart and then telling them everything. And my parents aren't going to listen to this. my brothers don't listen to like so in a weird way like you're gonna know more about me today than my own family so the parasocial thing is even it's real right like placebo effect is real like all these things so

I, you know, I got here early. I went for a walk down the, to those street and then it's like just this beautiful view of the ocean and I, it happens every time. It's like, it, it. I know what it makes me sound like. It's like, oh, this guy's like very unstable and unhinged. And I'd be the first to admit it. It's like, I cry all the time now. Like, I don't know what it was just like.

maybe just seeing all the burned houses on the way here just knowing that i haven't talked in a long time and there's no upside for me and i told you that i was like i go on these podcasts and i think um uh Howard Stern, like 15, 20 years ago, and Joe Rogan, the multiple times I've been on his show, I think are the only two radio shows, podcasts that have ever just aired it without editing. Everyone else...

Every time you've ever heard me on any other podcast, it's either severely edited or they cut out huge chunks of it or they didn't even air it at all. So I know that, you know, and I know the world we live in today. And so there was something that went, you know, in the narcissistic traits where I'm like, I'm the fucking greatest artist in the world to like, oh my God, I'm a piece of shit. Like it just, you know, it's just like this thing. And before.

when I was younger is like everyone has to see everything everyone has like I think I'm so important that everyone has to see everything that I create painting podcast book like whatever it is and then it went like my problem with my shit is it's all or nothing so it's hard for me to find the middle and so at this point now I'm like 49 I live a very quiet dad life you know I'm a family guy

And there's just thousands of paintings no one's ever seen. There's hundreds of hours, if not thousands of hours of podcasts I've never put out. There's books I've written. There's TV shows, movies that I've made that it's just, I don't. Before the ego and the narcissist is like, you need to put this out because you're important and everyone needs to see how important you are. And now the flip side to that and maybe.

Maybe it's not healthy either. It's like, I know who I am. I'm comfortable with myself. And I don't need, you know, I'm artificially blocked from everything. Like, I don't have my own password to my social media. I don't. I have blocks on my phone so I can't access the internet. So it's like I do put all these things into place to like protect myself because I'm a sensitive person. So, you know, as an artist...

There's certain isms and stories. It's like, oh, starving artists. You're not going to make any money. Struggling artists. There's these stories that people say and then you buy into them. But I had... I had a few teachers along the way that influenced me that like, you know, there's like just certain moments happen in your life that live in your head rent free. And I have a lot of those. And so...

One of the stories is, you know, I'm 49. It's like you have to live in New York City. If you make it in New York, you make it anywhere. What the fuck am I doing in the 408? Like this is, what am I doing in Cupertino? Like, in my head, the story's written that you're a fucking, you know, and I hadn't done shit, right? But in my head, I'm like, you're a greatest artist ever in...

Gilroy, you know, like what, you know what I mean? Sorry, no disrespect to Gilroy. It's like the garlic capital, garlic fest, garlic ice cream, you know? So there's a story in my head that it's like, I got to get to New York City, right? Like I got to like... I couldn't, I couldn't get any like leeway in Los Angeles. I'm born and raised in LA and I just, I couldn't, you know, and, and so I,

And now I look back, if I do an inventory of the most creative explosions and the most periods of creativity in my life, it's always found in the mundane. It's always found in... Cold temperatures. It's always found when there's no Wi-Fi. It's always found found in a suburb of It's it's like this story like it's gonna get to fucking New York and I'm gonna be part of this move It's never that like it's nice to romanticize that but it's

these moments of brilliance like someone whoever's listening right now they're like I got this and then I'm there's like a and then I'm gonna get to this and then I'm gonna meet this person and I'm gonna do and it's like bro I was fucking living in San Jose for seven years I met this wonderful lady she was my girlfriend for seven years but like at that prime i was 23 and i was like and um

For me, the stakes are so high because I, so one of the teachers was my mother, right? My mother is hardcore born-again Christian. So science does not enter the picture, right? It's like blinders on. And through her, I learned blind faith, right? Jesus Christ, that's it. There's no, there's no. So wait, you're telling me there was an actual ark with two animals and all the two animals didn't kill the other in the.

You know, and there was an atom and there was a snake that talked. It's like, yeah, like no hesitation. So she gave me that gift of like, like, hey, science, like facts. No blind, like just. holy shit like nothing could fault her and you're like you're fucking stupid you're ignorant like and she's but she's not she's a bright woman and now i look back and like i just met you

You're a brilliant guy. And I sit here and I go, I know some of the smartest people on the planet. You know some of the smartest people on the planet. And they're all dumb. They're all like idiots. You're like, wait, you're a genius. You have photographic memory. You created this company.

And you made some of the dumbest decisions I've ever, you know, it's like, it's like, yeah, you're really good at this, but you don't know relationships or you don't know. So, so my mom taught me through just not.

anything but just watching her of just this absolute belief and and one of her beliefs was you're my son you know this is some jesus like me who was like how i explained this is neurotic mess like growing up in an unstable family and all that, got fucking molested, every abuse, physical abuse, emotional abuse, like just chaotic because they were working and I was just like left out in the wild, abandoned.

spiritual abuse, all this shit. And she's just like, in the same way she believed in God and Jesus, she's like, you're the one. You're the greatest artist. And I'm like... five years old i'm like what the fuck are you talking about she's like no one's better than you no one's better than you you're the best you're gonna be the great you know your name's david

like a lot of koreans named after bible she's like i named you after king david you're gonna be a king and i go but now in hindsight i'm like and yes king david beat goliath but he also was a sex addict and had a lot of mental illness and like failed a lot you know she didn't tell me all that you know um so she's she's raising me she's brainwashing me it's like you're the best you're the greatest and then you you know i've met other artists where

It's like everyone has their own paths. Some become great because the parents are like, you're nothing. You're a piece of shit. You're the worst. Who the fuck do you think you are? I had the opposite. I had a mom just, it didn't matter. It didn't matter. but mom look at how horrible it's like you're the greatest and so it's like at some point i i hate myself i have like a solo such a low self opinion on myself i'm

I'm just down on myself, just this kid just constantly getting bullied and like the world just using me. And I'm like, of course she says that. She's my mom, you know. like but she just brainwashed me into believing that i'm the best and i would as a as a trickster and a shapeshifter i would you know what most artists lack is like an ability to communicate with words that's why they're such brilliant artists and that's why they can make great music and all this because they can't I can't

You know, like I'm gonna probably talk to you for you a few hours today and I'm gonna leave you're feeling misunderstood I'm gonna be like fuck did I because I'm not In the same way I can like translate what I feel in a painting. It's very like, it's like when people describe like ayahuasca or something, they're like, try to describe it and they're like, the words that you're trying to look for don't exist for what you just went through. So that's kind of the, why.

why I get really self-judgmental, but I'm like, this woman, and then, you know, my dad, he loves me, but he's like, he's all right. He's okay, you know? And I'd watch my mom, who was just like a brutal businesswoman, you know? And... she would transform you know we we we you know i i spent most of my life either poor or middle class you know like being wealthy came later but so you know we're on welfare a lot

businesses burned down in la riots like i saw my parents struggle a lot you know but then they would do good and they had the gamblers mentality which a lot of asians do and i have that too which is just I don't know if this is true, but I heard that Asians have the gambling gene more than other races, especially the women. Like most women don't have the gambling gene the same way men do.

So my mom would gamble like flipping houses or like not in a casino, but like just huge, like huge swings, which you're like, I grew up with a fearless woman, you know? But so we wouldn't have stuff. But then I would watch my mom open the trunk of her car and put on like fake jewelry, cubic zirconium, because she's about to go into a meeting and ask for a lot of money. And just insane.

lying and but hardcore christian so like the hypocrisy there like i'm definitely i'm trying to work on my own breaking out so it's like i'm going to be hypocritical in this interview and at the end hopefully i'll be able to correct any exaggerations that relies But that's a new tool that I have. I used to just, you know, whatever for the story, you know. I lied to tell the truth, you know, all those things. So I'd watch my mom transform from like a poor woman. The mentality was...

She's like, my son is the greatest artist in the world, and I'm coming out of my Toyota hatchback with a broken window. But when I go into this meeting right now, you're not going to see that. So she transformed herself into this. rich powerful woman and they just like get like I'm just sitting there a kid in the corner watching this woman get what she wants I'm like holy fuck what the fuck was that performance and then just coming out and I'm like but mom

that's not like those things you said. That wasn't real. That's not true. And she's like, yeah, they don't need to know that. And I'm like, but we just went to church and we learned the Ten Commandments and you're not supposed to lie. And it's like all this like confusion. And then I meet Sean Parker, who, you know, just the sweetest kid, you know, just he started emailing me right when he started.

Napster. He goes, I have all the emails. I keep certain emails and voice messages, and that's my own nostalgia. But I have a voicemail and a handwritten letter from Howard Stern saying, thank you for...

getting me into watercolors. And I was like, dude, my fucking hero, like, yes! Like, it's such a good feeling. I have a voice message from Pee Wee Herman, which I'll share later. And all my early... emails with sean parker i kept just because it was he's such an interesting like wonderful i know like the image of him but like i i we don't talk like as like we used to but I still consider him a friend and I'm forever grateful to him but so he I met him at a time when like

I mean, I don't even know how to, I mean, like, just complete disgrace and shame to my family. You know, it's like the immigrant story. Talk to any immigrant. Why the fuck did you leave your home? to come to another country because it was shitty there. That's it. You're not born in a country and you're like, dude, let's leave, right? The only reason why anyone's here is because it was shitty where you were at, right?

So then they all, it doesn't matter if you're Asian or Mexican, whatever. You came here for a better life. And what does that mean? Work your ass off. So we're in a nation of workaholics, right? This is an entire country of workaholics. So my parents, you know, I didn't go through it, but they're like Japanese tanks rolled down the street and you know They have the typical like fucking war famine all that stuff. So they get over here and like Born and raised in Los Angeles

You know, it's like, don't know who I am. Don't know where I belong. Just bullied, abandoned, abused over and over. And just, I didn't even really know the concept of suicide. But I hated myself. Like I couldn't live in my, like, it felt like I was burning inside my own body. And so even made fun of like.

Like I listen to, we have the same taste in music. I listen to Minutemen, Minor Threat. You know, I'm blasting Downset, Inside Out, Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers. I used to put on Soundgarden, Slaves and Bulldozers. punch myself as like just like i'm in my room a teenager just punching myself as hard as i can just to like go into like a berserker rage um and i and i just

Back then, I found pornography, and it was just so soothing. It was getting high. I would just masturbate over and over again. I'm like master, but I would do like weird self-harm. I guess the kids call it edging, but I masturbate, but then not come and then beat myself up. And I'm going through puberty. And I would go out and shoplift spray cans like just at, you know, hardware stores. And I'm listening to, you know, I would get like a...

Faith No More, like, In Living Colors, just, like, some song, and I would just, like, an OCD, just repeat, like, some lyric in it. I am a patient boy, and I would just, like, go into, like, a trance, and I would just go out, and I would just fucking spray paint. And I'm living at home, so I'm not hiding this shit. I come home, my hands covered in black paint. This is what we fucking came to this country for? This is why we fucking left another country so you could come here?

And not be an artist, but dude, like, you're a disgrace. You're a disgrace to our race. You're, you know, and my dad would just like fucking throw me against the wall. And I'm like, I don't care, dude. I don't care what you're, like, do you understand? Like, I wasn't, like, actively trying to kill myself, but I didn't, like, do you understand that everything you care about, I don't care? Do you get that? And, like...

You know, you start the show, and I was laughing because it's like, hey, I'm Andrew Huberman, scientist, Stanford, this, and I'm like, I don't care. Like, I like Andy. Like, I like that, you know? And then I was like, you know what? This is like a stolen valor. Sean Parker starting Facebook with Mark Zuckerberg, you know, I'm there at the beginning and.

So he brings me in. And at the time, when I first, this is years, the emails back and forth. He's like, I need, because the energy I was putting out at the time was what I'm telling you right now. Just, I don't give a fuck.

I don't care what you care about. Like, I don't, like, it's just complete. I don't care if I go to jail. I don't, like, I'm just painting on everything. And it's like graffiti. Graffiti is vandal. It's not an art. It's not graffiti artist or street art. It's fucking vandalism. It's a crime. And people are telling me, anyone out there doing street art, like, there's so many rules. There's so many, like, what did you write?

Did you used to tag or anything? No, but I... Shut up. If you skated, you definitely had like a... There were some kids in our crew that... Cubes? No. What did you tag? Come on. No, because I had friends who were like graffers and they were, they like boxed us out. You know, the Undershadows kids. You never did graffiti? No, but we can talk about this later. I want to hear from you now, but later we should talk about Orphan and the Undershadows crew, which is a...

which is a kind of a thing in the Bay Area. Yeah, yeah, I heard of him. Yeah, he was a good friend of mine. But anyway, I didn't graffiti. Okay. But I drew on my grip tape. All right, that's good. But no, I wasn't a tagger, wasn't a graffiti guy. Yeah, so I'm out. doing like that and you know like you know we can have like a conversation about creativity and this and that and it's like I can't it's

It's very hard to talk about, it's because it's like, can you teach a craft? Can you teach a skill? Can I teach you to paint the Mona Lisa? Yeah. I know how to do all that. I know how to like, I went to school, like I taught myself, I watched videos, like. You could teach yourself how to paint something to make it look like something. That's a teachable skill. But creativity, where does that come from? Are you just born with it? Is it from deprivation? It's like a...

You know, I can only share what my path is, and it's like, the embarrassment, like, you're Asian, you need to get a 4.0, you need to get into UCLA, you need to be a doctor or a lawyer. And it's like me, I'm the middle child, me and my two brothers, like long hair, listening to heavy metal and punk.

Why are you doing that white shit? You know like and then he's got the Asian kids that are into You know like there was no identity right and then It's just like lost just like what the fuck is, you know, like we don't belong anywhere just caught like the Asian depictions uh in media is like long duck dong Asians have small dicks they can't drive they're good at math it's just nothing's good right and I'm like I you know I'm just trying to figure out my way in this world and I and I remember

Sean just was attracted to like whatever, whatever little art I'd start getting some noticed and juxtaposed. And I was starting to do graffiti everywhere. And, and he's like, I want that. whatever that is i want that like i want to be part of that and i said and i i forgot what my painting it was it was like right when i couldn't sell a painting and then all of a sudden they were selling for a couple thousand and he's like

And he was a teenager still, and he goes, I want your art, but the problem is I'm being sued right now for a trillion dollars because every single song is a lawsuit. I mean, whatever, it ended up the way it ended up. I remember he goes, I'm getting, he showed me a screenshot or whatever. He's like, I'm being sued for $1 trillion right now, so I can't really afford your art, but like, I'm going to get it. You know, so we started this relationship and he would send me these.

crazy like abstract texts of emails of what he wanted me to paint and then and then uh he started another company called plaxo and he's like no and then finally you're catching me in the south bay you know i met this girl we fell in love and i moved to san jose just the most culturally dead place and everyone's like rollerblading working at Apple or MySpace or eBay or you know some some tech startup and they're like we're cool because we have a trampoline and a

You know, we have a like a kitchen area where you can have all the Red Bull and snacks you want and we have bunk beds. So we like that's also you could just keep working, you know. And so I meet Sean and he's like, dude, we're starting this company called Facebook and.

Like we finally have some money and like dude, this is he's like where you at and he didn't know all this But I had just gotten out of prison. I was in jail in Japan because i had beaten up uh undercover security guard i was 27 when i got and i owed everyone money i owed my girlfriend money i owed and so i needed money bad and um i was in like a lot of trouble i like was

I didn't know how I was going to pay everyone back because it's really hard to sell a painting, you know. But my paintings did sell once in a while, and they were starting to get pretty expensive. And then all the art that I did in jail. I used to work for Vice Magazine. I say work, but I never got paid. They didn't pay you? No, I think people, if anyone's listening, there's a little side tangent.

And it's going to definitely sound like OCD, like I'm keeping a list and maybe I am because I don't think about it. But I was sitting the other day and I go, they all owe me money. Everyone I've ever worked for. Like, people are like, I got to get paid. Like, someone develops a skill. Like, I'm good at songwriting or this or that. And then they go, well, I got to get, like, the young people's men. Like, well, that's my craft. I got to get paid. I go, I never got paid.

i work for nike levi's ruka giant robot vice fucking even my friend steve aoki and like just all every like 88 rising If I sit here, I'll name everyone. But either they didn't pay me what they said, or I had to threaten to kill them for them to send me, or they just never paid me. And I met Gavin McInnes when he started Vice.

And he had seen some of the art that I did in Giant Robot. He saw that I went to the Congo. He saw like, and he's like, hey. And it was all punk rock advice when it was like the big format. And he's like, dude. And he just believed in me. I don't know what he saw. He's like, dude, send me a drawing of cops beating up this. And I did it fast. He's like, I need it by tomorrow. And I was like, I can do it. And then he's like.

He just was like, hey, write me a story about some shooting in LA Koreatown gangster shit. And I go, but I'm not. He's like, just just do it. And at one point. That was another figure that was resonated my mom of like. The rules, reality doesn't apply. I'm sitting there going, wait, but I'm not a journalist. I didn't fact check anything. And there was some issues of vice where I wrote five different articles under a woman's name.

a black guy's name, you know, like just made up names, articles just to fill up pages. And I would have done the comic section, illustrations, music review, street. you know, fashion, you know, the do's and don'ts. And I'm just like, you can do that. And like, I had already been groomed for that because of my mom. It's like, no, reality doesn't apply. You just, my mom thinks I'm the best artist and now.

here's you know so sean's like okay and and so i'm i'm in what i feel is like purgatory the 408 san jose milpitas you know i'm just like what the fuck is this like And I'm telling myself, when I get to New York, it's like this Golden Gate, like, end of the Golden Road, like Wizard of Oz. Like, when I get there, then I'm going to get discovered. And then someone's going to be like... And, um...

Because what is it? You know, like people are like, what is, and I go, I can be a hater. I can be a loving, sweet, selfless person. I could be like a very hard, judgmental hater to myself. And so I take this so seriously. Like what we're doing here today is talking. I mean, it's mostly me talking. I could see that. But it's like we're having a conversation. But I think.

without sounding it's like i i think it's important that's why i'm here like i like i said like i'm like why i i feel like i trust you even though i just met you but like yeah i fucking puked down the street because i get I go, what's the upside? Like I'm going to talk and then maybe I say something that I didn't mean or I say it the wrong way or it gets clipped weird or edited. And I go, I think it's important. I want to come. I want to talk to you. And that's how I feel about my art.

What is that? What is art? What is creativity? And for me, it's like... I think sports are very gay, especially skateboarding. Like, I... If I never played sports, I would have never seen another man's penis. You know, like, and then in my time in sports, it was very rough because I wasn't, I told myself, any athlete that I paint with, they always start saying the same thing. I suck at drawing. And I go, why did you do that?

Why did you immediately shoot yourself? Like, who said that? Did someone else say that or did you say that? They start with saying something negative. And I go, that's exactly what I say if they try to teach me how to throw a free throw. I go, oh, this is going to suck. And they go. Why did you do that? And so for me, growing up, I grew up in a lot of black neighborhoods where...

The second, you know, I don't know how to play basketball, but the second I try and I fuck up, it's like, look at the Chinese kid fucking trying. And so I go, all right, you know what? I'm not even going to try it, you know? And it's like, well, you should have just come at like five in the morning when no one was there, you know? But like, I was so sensitive. I was like.

I don't want to, so I did things in the, you know, it's, art is a solitary sport for the most part. You know, I'm not, there's no Rob there. It's just me, like, even in the thing, it's like this. like don't look at my sketchbook and but in here i can up and fix a race whatever but so like in sports you know it's like

You're slapping guys' asses. You're taking showers with them. You're doing all this, like, male bonding stuff. You're just spending a lot of time with other men, right? And I'm like, oh, God, like. What is the feeling? I'm trying to isolate the feeling. Like, what? And I remember, because I don't, like, I tell this stuff not to be like, feel sorry for me or I'm a victim. I don't feel like that. I mean, I'm just telling you what happened.

Part of it is you do like, what would you rather, would you rather someone beat you up for five minutes or have the whole world read your diary? You know, like these kind of, and... And luckily, I had both. You know, I've been beaten to an inch of my life. I've had, like, I've had broken bones. I've been stabbed. I've been burned. I've been, like, everything physically you can think of. And I'm still here. Right? So there's not much.

Because I have my mom's delusion, like when I talk to Joe, and he's shorter than me, but I know he could probably, like logically, I know he could probably kick my ass. I have no fighting background. But in my head, I'm like, I'm pretty sure I could kick his ass. And that's just the way I walk through life. Like, I still believe in Santa Claus. People go, I can't believe I just said that. I think that's the first time publicly I've ever said that. We're coming up on Christmas.

By now, I'm sure that many of you have heard me say that I've been taking AG1 for more than a decade. And indeed, that's true. The reason I started taking AG1 way back in 2012, and the reason why I still continue to take it every single day, is because AG1 is, to my...

knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. What that means is that it contains not just vitamins and minerals, but also probiotics, prebiotics, and adaptogens to cover any gaps that you might have in your diet while also providing support for a demanding life. Given the probiotics and prebiotics in AG1, it also helps support a healthy gut microbiome.

The gut microbiome consists of trillions of little microorganisms that line your digestive tract and impact things such as your immune status, your metabolic health, your hormone health, and much more. Taking AG1 consistently helps my digestion, keeps my immune system strong, and it ensures that my mood and mental focus are always at their best.

AG1 is now available in three new flavors, berry, citrus, and tropical. And while I've always loved the AG1 original flavor, especially with a bit of lemon juice added, I'm really enjoying the new berry flavor in particular. It tastes great. But then again, I do love all the... I just remember...

There's I don't know it's changed now, but I remember when I was a kid It was around six or seven when they start going there's no fucking Santa But I was eight and I was like and they're like how dumb are you and I understand this reflects back to my mom and jesus i go and they go but you've literally never got any presents from santa how and and i'd go to shame because i'm a bad kid i cussed i was like i stole stuff from the supermarket you know like

And they're like, hey, fuckface, Santa's not real. And I just was like, but he is. I believe that he is. And I believe. I go, there's, there's him not giving me a present is like, cause I put him in this God category. Maybe he's not God, but maybe he's a God, like a demigod or something. And they go, how is he, how does he know if you're naughty or nice?

I go, telepath. How does he get every fucking present to every kid in that time? I'm like, oh, he's a mutant. He can multiply. He can make copies of himself. How does he get through that tiny chimney? I go, teleport. Like, I just... It's not even a question. I just know, I believe it. And I don't care how stupid you think, like, I guess this is me coming out with my Santa Claus, but it's just like, I just believe that. And you can't say anything to make me not believe that.

That's my blind faith that I got from my mom. So like every Christmas, I'm almost 50. I'm a fucking middle-aged man. And I go, maybe this is the year I'm going to. But now I look back and I go, the gift he gave me. of giving me nothing gave me everything right so i i'm i'm sitting there and i i'm drawing but i have that story in my head too like i suck

Oh, fuck, that doesn't look like Batman. Oh, his arm looks weird, you know? And then at some point, to this day, all the physical and emotional pain, sorry, just the physical pain, like... It passes. I've broken bones. I've had my face just pummeled, like just where you wouldn't reckon disfigured. But it passes. And if I think back, I don't remember it. But the pain that stays is like heartbreak.

You know, betrayal, abandonment. And I just remember my dad would make us keep a journal because he just wanted us to start learning how to write. And it started with, if I take you guys to the movies, you have to write a movie review. And it was like we were eight years old, seven years old, just, you know. Today we saw Karate Kid. Johnny got chased by skeletons.

the end you know it was like that like a little kid you know but he's like you have to do it Goonies was cool you know so we kept the thing but then he never asked to read it he just wanted us to do it and I was like oh So I started like getting more brave. I was like, I really like this girl at school. And like, and I would just start getting really vulnerable and open and just knowing because my brothers don't give a shit.

but then the thought of like what if someone ever read this so i was like opening myself up and just letting and i was like oh my god like it felt so good like like i can't tell anyone like

I'm having these kind of feelings or like, you know, like I fucking hate dad, you know, like, you know, whatever. And I would take the... bottom drawer out of my desk out and i would hide it under there and i shared a room with my brother so i always did it when he you know i thought i was being secretive and i was somewhere between seven eight nine i it just

know as you get better at writing and i i got more once i got more comfortable knowing that no one i just started writing everything like my brother's fart smell like i wish you know just like everything i would write just just completely

And I came one day and I saw both my brothers on the bed reading it. And I remember my face just, like it felt so hot. Like I felt like someone had just... like ultimate betrayal and and it was like being naked that's why i bring up the like i felt more naked than being in a room full of naked guys showering like slapping like it was the most vulnerable like

They were being so merciless. You like her and you did that. I can't believe you, you know, because I wrote everything in that journal. And I thought I was going to die from shame and embarrassment. And, you know. like the way kids are, brothers can be. It was merciless. And they made fun of me for years for that. And in the same way my face was disfigured and I've had physical abuse and all that, I lived through it. And I was like...

I'm still here. And so why the fuck am I going to be a pussy when I draw? When I draw, no more like I'm going to draw Batman like this artist or that artist. Oh, I'm going to draw like... you know like okay that's fine you're like trying to figure out how to work with tools and but and that's fine skill craft great but like this like showing you like so there's I had been trained now

for heartbreak right like a lot of artists spend their whole life being not validated bullied rejected and then finally they figure out how to draw something where people are like yes we like that and so they never grow They do that same verse, that same flow forever. And then you got people like Andre 3000. They're like, I don't care. I'm going to do flute shit. It's like, well, we don't like that. And it's like, I don't care. I'm an artist. I'm going to.

You got someone like Flea who's like, I'm going to just do performance art. And I'm like, I don't even like half that shit, but I just love them. And I go, how fucking brave is that? How brave is that? But I remember... Just to this day, right? I am a very successful, established artist. And yet today, there's people that are like, that's the fucking worst art I've ever seen. And I go, cool.

But if you don't have that background of just having your heart ripped out, it is the most painful thing to put yourself out on a camp, like to pour your... That's you. That's your soul. And someone's like, and then especially if you're trying to sell it, like, no, thanks. You know? So to have a guy like Sean Parker, who's younger than me, but just not even the art.

He's just like, I like you, like whatever that is. And then I want to change the world with this kid that I met, Mark Zuckerberg. And so I meet him with his flip-flops and, you know, I meet the whole crew. And I... And I go, what do you want me to do? He's like, I want you to fucking paint everything. I want people to be scared. I want investors to be scared. I want everyone to just be like, we're not MySpace. We're not eBay. I want them to be horrified when they come in here.

I want you to just fucking paint the microwave, like everything. And I go, indoors, right? And he goes, yeah. And I go, all right. So just like cover up your computers. And then they're like, no, we're going to, we're going to be working here. And I'm like.

You know how toxic these chemicals, like, I work in spray paint, like, I have brain damage because of this shit. Like, I have, like, memory issues. They're like, we don't care. You know, they're, like, young. They're like, fuck the world, hack the world, like, all that shit.

so I was there and they would be like let's fucking blast Daft Punk like I don't this is a world I'm not you know I like going into different worlds and they're like we're gonna blast daft punk because i guess it's like something with the repetitiveness and the cody and we're gonna do these hackathons where we just hack into shit and

It was punk rock. It was like a very nerdy punk rock, but they're like, we don't give a fuck. And I like that spirit, but they were such nerds. And they were so earnest. You've never heard people talk like that, where they're talking, they're like, and we're going to change the world. And I'm like, I'm into that, whatever that is. And they thought they were so cool when they thought they were giving me a Stanford email. Because I'm not on social media. I'm a Luddite. I don't.

I'm the last to whatever new technology. I'm like, all right, like I've never touched AI, any of that. And so I was like, you guys are trying to be like MySpace, but. Myspace is, it's already here. Like for the young people listening, like there was no Facebook. There was no Instagram. It was Myspace. It was just dominated. And they're like, yeah, but we're, we're fucking Myspace for Ivy League, you know.

Oh, that's right. In 2007. That's right. Because that was a postdoc. In order to get Facebook, you had to have an Ivy League or a Stanford email. Because technically Stanford's not in the Ivy League. So you're not the only one, motherfucker. Stolen valor. So...

I love it. So I forgot what it was. It was like Choey at Stanford EDU. But like I remember he gave it. It probably still exists. I don't know. I remember him giving it to me like it's something I wanted. I was just painting. He's like, Dave.

You don't have to go. I'll get you a Stanford email, and then you could be part of Facebook. I'm like, I don't want to be. I don't care. I don't care what you, like, you want to be, you and Mark and all these guys want to be in this, like, and they're like, he was, like, confused. Because he's like, you don't want the whatever, like, respect and whatever comes with having a Stanford. And I go, no, I hate education.

i hate learning i hate teachers i hate like what the are you talking about and he he was like i go why don't you just make it for everybody and he's like oh like you know the thing is like It was so funny when the David Fincher movie came out because it's just an awesome movie, but I was there for all of it. Some of the facts are right, but it just didn't go down that way. So Mark is like a genius. And Sean, I mean, similar to my mother. It's like, I think Naomi's still there. It was like Naomi.

Mark, Sean, Dustin, and me just like gassing them out. They're just trying to code like, and I'm like listening to all their conversations and I'm like telling them how nerdy they are. I'm like, bro, make it for everybody. Don't, you know, like. and they're like and i would listen in on all their conversations like so cool dave joe's painting our office and i was like oh they like me you know like i'm being validated not just by my mother you know um and so

You know, I do everything backwards and we start to discuss payment, you know. And at that time, I had once in my life sold a painting for like 10 grand. And it was like a fluke. And that's another story that I could tell about rejection and all that. So I just did some dumb, ignorant math. I was like, well, that painting was this big, and I was like, 60 grand, you know? And I needed that. I needed that to pay off everyone. And then at the time...

Up until going to jail, I had been a thief. I was doing a lot of stealing to support my... I was like, graffiti doesn't pay the bills. Stealing your paint. Stealing everything. Was Facebook Office painted with stolen cans? Probably. Probably. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

My graph friends, graph, graffiti for those that don't know. Yeah, yeah. They were like world-class crooks. Yeah, yeah, of course. Because they were always stealing pens and paint and, you know, I mean. Exactly. I mean, it's like it doesn't pay the bills, you know. Yeah.

So what had transferred, you know, the nature of addiction, if you don't get to the root of it, it just keeps jumping, right? Like whack-a-mole. So whack-a-mole into... my my background which is watching my parents take huge so i got into gambling so i was just like it there was every paycheck anything it was always i gotta figure out a way because gambling feels like stealing

and it's you know and i sat there and and people were just like you work at facebook like that's you know my friends that aren't in that academia they're just like that's like the the the shitty myspace you know like look at the font look at the you know all the artsy like look at the designs the fucking you know what is that the name facebook come on like that's the most creative you know

And I said, I think I'm going to ask them if I could get shares in the company. Did you understand equity in that whole thing? No, I don't understand anything. And it's like I have shares in other companies that are all worthless. right like it was just it was growing up with my mom watching her that if i didn't have that like i just and i don't even understand that i just

I remember being with having lunch with Zuck's parents and like, you know, he doesn't he comes from a nice family. And I think Yahoo or Microsoft, someone had offered him right in the beginning a billion dollars for it. And he's like, no thanks. And he's still sleeping on the fucking mattress on the ground, eating Doritos. And I'm like, like, you know, I'm trying to like pay my fucking, uh, all my friends back. And I'm like, oh, he don't give a shit.

He doesn't care about money. Like he cares about like what he cares about. It's like such a singular focus. He's like, I want to fucking disrupt the, I want to bring the whole world together. It was, you know, youthful idealism. And I remember. Going to work one day, I just loved working there because I don't get jobs like that where they're like, paint everything. Like, you're here doing this and I'm painting around.

I'm painting on everything. And the best part is that they didn't even like what I was painting. Like Mark would come and he's like, what is that dude? And like Sean's like. Dave, you know that other thing you did I saw at the art show? And I was like, you didn't ask for that. You said fucking destroy, like you said scare people when they walk, you know. As I recall, there was like a...

big primate monkey with jagged teeth and some crankers. Yeah, and I was gassing myself out. I'm doing all that shit without a mask on. It's all going right into my brain. I'm like... whatever toxic spray paint fumes does to your brain, and there's no fresh air coming in. And I remember Sean Parker just bronze, just bronze skin, like $200 haircut.

custom suit and i go who are you man and he was doing what my mom was doing he was just fucking doing push-ups and like and i was like this skinny little nerd like just he was like handsome and I go, oh, this is what my mom used to do before she went into a bit. She used to fucking, and he's like, oh, we're going to get, we're going to fucking raise some money. Like he was, and I go, holy fuck, this guy is so sick, you know?

and he transformed his physical appearance because he was about to go into like serious fundraising and that's when i met the paypal guy and peter thiel and like just i was like this guy's you know Like people give all the credit to Mark, but I'm like, Sean, guy was, he was an artist in, you know, and also like out of control, which like that attracted each other.

And then he was there when they got, when he got fired and all that stuff. But I remember like the impact that had on me, like just, wow. you've heard the fake it till you make it, right? It's like, I know I'm not the best artist in the world, but my mom thinks so. But Sean Parker, like other people think so. But I'm like, but that's whatever. They're just kissing my ass or whatever.

And then there can be a switch. And I think it's like sick and tired of being sick and tired or enough is enough. Like, I just can't. take it anymore it's like well i i can't live like this anymore i i feel like i'm trapped i feel like and so then it's like oh you can't travel you need money for that well i'm gonna hitchhike then i'm gonna hop on a freight train

I saw the entire world with nothing, no money. Like, well, it must be nice to be rich. I go, I'm rich now. I've had nothing my whole life and I just had to fucking fight for it. And like, would I recommend it? Like a lot of it was illegal. I spent a lot of time in jail, but also...

Jail didn't hurt me. I lived. And I spent some time there. I got to learn who I am. And so it's just to piece out the skills you learn for what's creativity, what's business, what... aided me and helped me at this time in my life that which no longer aids me now and how to like because my the other thing i learned from my mom is just just adapts oh our business just burned down in the la riots and instead of like sitting there was like okay now we're doing this now we're doing this

Now we're doing this. And I'm like, I remember getting a job in Beverly Hills right after high school. I was 18, 1994. And it was at this weird... comic book, like a high-end comic book store called Comics Top Hits. I'm a comic book guy. I love comics. And I remember I begged the guy for a job. I'm like, please, please. And he's like, all right, fine. The customer seemed... Because I would just hang out there and talk to the customers anyways.

and i remember one day stan lee showed up and i'm like stan lee like my hero you know and he and he sat there and um people were bringing him dark winged duck batman archie like all the things he he didn't work on hey marvel fans and he just signed everything and i'm like i was like the guy managing the line that day and i'm looking at his hair plugs and i go

You fucking, like, you didn't fucking invent Batman. You're, you know? And at the end of the day, I built up enough confidence to, you know, as everyone left and we're packing up, I'm like, Stan, dude, you didn't invent Batman. Why the fuck you signed that guy's book? And he's like. Did you see their faces? Did you see? Like, they were so happy. Like, why would I get in the way of their happiness? And I'm like, holy shit, dude. He's like, yeah, don't correct people.

And I thought about that, like everywhere I go in the world and there's like, China. I remember being in Africa and these kids were just chasing us everywhere. And our translator was a French-Vietnamese guy. And he was like, Dave's Korean. I'm Vietnam. It's like, you're just, they don't give a shit, dude. They don't give a fuck. I remember just the things I'm talking about is like watching Sean Parker shapeshift, watching my mom shapeshift, watching, um, act as if you belong.

Act as if you have a seat at the table. It's like, I know that's part of being an artist is being like shy, nerdy, self-conscious. It's like, just pretend like you're the best artist in the world. Like you just show up and you're like, put like... This is the journey from their head to heart. I like when you talk because you make sense. And that's why the smartest people in the world are the dumbest fucking idiots I've met because they try to apply logic to everything.

And you're applying logic to spiritual problems. You're applying logic to emotional problems. And it's like, how's that working out for you? It's not. You're never going to outthink a feeling. You're never going to outsmart a feeling. You're like, wait. These people are acting like, who would do that? Why would you do that? And I'm like, because it's not logical. It's an emotional thing. It's a mentally ill, whatever it is. It's not logic-based. It's emotion-based.

mentally ill based it's spiritual based like you can't fuck with people's religion or what they have faith in or and and all this stuff so i'm watching i remember going Stefan correcting the black kids that he's Vietnamese is making them feel stupid and they're getting angrier. The kids that think I'm Bruce Lee and I just confirmed that I'm Bruce Lee are getting happy, right? It's like...

People are dumb out there. That's fine. I don't care. I'm dumb. I'm stupid. It's like when someone corrects me, it makes me feel shame and dumber. But then if no one corrects me, it's like, then it's my own shit to figure that out or not. Right? So... Watching these people, like very successful people in my life, my mom, she's like unstoppable, right? Anything the world throws at her, she just goes, okay, I guess we're doing this now. Like she doesn't hang on. She's like.

hang on tightly let go lightly right it's just like okay we were real estate people now we're doing herbalife oh the that happened mark hughes died okay now we're doing this like she just goes like that like like adapts to any situation and like right now i get a call a week from all artists, creative types that it's, you know, and we don't have to have an AI talk. I don't, I would rather not have an AI talk, but it's Armageddon, right? Everyone's like, I spent my life doing sound engineering.

And now it's gone. Just like the guy who would do the like hand letter this and then Photoshop, boom, your job's gone. The Carl Zeiss lens go on the iPhone and now photographer. Like it's just, it's gone. Like you could sit there and start complaining or you could just keep adapting.

And so I think true creativity you can't contain. If you're open and you're ready to get naked and you're ready to, you know, people are like, oh, do you have to suffer to be a great artist? Absolutely, but you've already suffered enough. It's already done. Like whatever happened to you in your childhood, that's enough fuel for the rest of you. You don't have to continually. But I see myself and others at times like I hopefully am better now, but I see people.

continually putting themselves in this situation to, like, suffer more and more and more. And I just remember the shame of my, like, it's just these things. they're you know decades ago but they're still like my dad just like throwing me across like we left another country so you could be a criminal event like just

He was like, I'll just kill us all now. We were in the car leaving the police station. He's like, I'm going to crash the car. And I was like, I was in the back, like kind of disassociating, numb, crying, like feeling mixed emotions. Going from, like, victim to sorry to, like, well, fuck you then and, you know, everything in between. And then just going, I accept now. Oops. I accept. Sorry, am I close enough to the microphone?

You're good. Am I close to the microphone? Just going, I'm going to choose to believe what my mom believes in me. I'm the greatest artist on the planet. I was in my 20s. I was like... Fuck it. Like going into galleries, looking at comic books. And can I tell you one quick fuck you Sean Parker story? So at the time I was doing Facebook.

Like things were happening. Like I had a vice show selling my jail art, which gave me a little bit of cash. I was starting to work for Heidi Fleiss to do a erotic mural for her sex shop in Hollywood. And I had just gotten a job to do.

jay-z lincoln park's mashup album cover and it's like i needed the money and i need and it was just like it things i was like it's starting to happen like things are you know and and this is while i was doing the facebook thing so they hadn't blown up yet And they gave me the job and I'm like, the biggest rock band in the world and the biggest rapper in the world are doing an album together and they want me.

Little old me to do the... I felt so... I mean, they fucking butchered the art. I gave them the art and they just made it look shitty. They put a shitty font on it. They put a... like they did fake graffiti spray i was like what the fuck did you whatever anyways that's a whole other thing but um i you know i'm like cool like what's that gonna pay like you know like and they're like two grand

I'm like, wait, you know, it's like this one day I'm going to make it and my name is going to be in lights. And I knew other artists. So like Mir did. the Limp Bizkit cover Shepard Fairey did. So I knew them well enough where I was like, hey guys, am I getting fucked right now? And they're like, no, that's typical. I go, that's what they pay artists for?

I mean, because back in the day when I was doing art, paintings, whatever, galleries or illustrations, that was the range, 200 to like 2,000 at the most if you're doing like a cover or something.

I'm like an album cover for and they're like no that's what they pay and I was like damn dude I thought this was this is big time you know and so I negotiated for that at the same time i'm working at facebook and i drew this crazy cover and they're like yeah that's for the rights for the album cover right so then i don't know the album comes out and then they use the art everywhere

They use it on billboards. My friend's reading comic books, and he's like, oh, they did a full-page ad. And I go, like, for illustration, that's a separate fee, right? It's like, here's the rights to use on the album cover. Here's for advertising, right? And so I'm talking to, I don't know anything, right? I'm a fucking...

horrible street artist running oh I call myself a street artist uh delete that from the microphone sorry um so I I'm you know and you you could like bleep the names or whatever because i clearly remember so i call warner brothers and i go hey uh can i talk to whoever's in legal or whatever

And I go, yeah, I talked to my friends who are also artists that are more successful, and they said, there's a separate fee I should be getting for billboards, you know, bus bench usage, magazine, editorial, you know.

You know, magazines used to be big, you know, Tower Records, Virgin Records. And I remember the arrogance on this guy, Chip. He was like their head legal. He doesn't work there anymore. And he's like... and i i remember the way he talked to me felt like my child like just made me feel he's like you're some shitty graffiti like who the fuck are you you know like why am i wasting my time talking to you and i go well

And he started, like, just hitting me with legalese. And I go, hey, I'm raising my hand right now. I'm raising my hand saying, I don't understand what you're saying. Can you please talk to me? And, like, can you dumb down? You're, like, trying to beat me up with words right now. I'm just saying.

you know, it should be an additional 10 grand, 15 grand for what you guys did. I'll be happy with another five or, you know, just like trying to talk. And he's like, I don't know who the fuck you think you are. And it was like very condescending. And I remember the arrogance of, I was like, I could be recording this call, you know, but he was just, and I was like, for a guy named Chip, that's such a weird, you know.

You could come at us with lawyers you could like and you may be even right But guess what you're fucking with Warner like you'll never win like you will never get another dime out of us I'm like holy fuck that what a fucking

And like I said, like, if you're going to be, like, people are like, oh, I love painting. Then just paint. Like, oh, I want to be, it's like, you know how fucking hard it is to make money as a creator? It's like, you got to fight, you got to get a thick skin and you better be ready to, like, I had to.

Threatened Nike with blowing up their entire parking lot before they paid me I was like you asked me for these drawings. I did them I deliver them on time and you're giving me the checks in the mail and I called like Wyden and Kent, you know, whatever the Oregon and I was like

I live in LA. It's going to take me this many hours to drive and I'm going to, I don't know which car is yours. I'm going to blow up every car. Check was in the mail the next day. I'm like, why did I have to do that? Why did I have to turn into my mom to get the... But most artists go, and then they just get fucked over, right? So that's part of being an artist is getting fucked over, not getting paid what you deserve, blah, blah, blah.

So I'm like obviously sensitive and painting like in a bad mood. And Sean's like, dude, what's up, Dave? Why are you? And I told him what I just told you. And he's like, you know, Facebook has like big money behind it now. It's growing. He's like, oh, we got to.

multi-million dollar deal with Warner Brothers tomorrow in the meeting and I was like he goes check this out so he has the meeting with Warner Brothers and they're like full like you know everyone's at the long table and they're like oh we want to advertise with Facebook and this is the new this is the new world and they're like okay cool and it's like you know it's like millions of dollars or whatever hundreds of thousands of dollars and he's like yeah but

That guy Chip fucked with my friend Dave Cho, so we're not doing shit with you guys. And he just, and I was like, this guy's my dog forever. Like, like, what, how, like, like just. does not no given right i was like i cried i gave him a hug i was like don't with me don't with me like it felt so good it felt so good i was like and then i found out he got fired and all that it's like

I was like, yes, sometimes the little guy wins, you know, like it felt so good. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, Function.

Last year, I became a function member after searching for the most comprehensive approach to lab testing. Function provides over 100 advanced lab tests that give you a key snapshot of your entire bodily health. This snapshot offers you with insights on your heart health, hormone health, immune functioning, nutrient levels, and much more. We'll see you next time.

from top doctors who are expert in the relevant areas. For example, in one of my first tests with function, I learned that I had elevated levels of mercury in my blood. Function not only helped me detect that, but offered insights into how best to reduce my mercury levels, which included limiting my tuna consumption. I'd been eating a lot of tuna, while also making an effort to eat more leafy greens and supplementing with NAC and acetylcysteine, both of which can...

and support glutathione production and detoxification. And I should say, by taking a second function test, that approach worked. Comprehensive blood testing is vitally important. There's so many things related to your mental and physical health that can only be detected in a blood test. The problem is blood testing has always been very expensive and complicated. In contrast, I've been super impressed by function simplicity. and...

at the level of cost. It is very affordable. As a consequence, I decided to join their scientific advisory board, and I'm thrilled that they're sponsoring the podcast. If you'd like to try Function, you can go to functionhealth.com slash Huberman. Function currently has a wait list of over 200. 250,000 people, but they're offering early access to Huberman podcast listeners. Again, that's functionhealth.com slash Huberman to get early access to function.

So I got all the typical shame and all that. And to be fair, if you're my dad and you fucking escaped a war and famine to raise your family in America and you see your kid stealing paint at Home Depot to... graffiti dicks on walls like you're gonna you're not gonna so i give him that you know but i i just i was i felt i didn't know where i belonged you know i'm like i

I couldn't process, maybe I have dyslexia. I was in school and it just, I couldn't, none of the information, I was like, this is so hard. Like people, like I would try really hard to get a C, right? Where other people were like, oh, okay. You know, X? I was like, why is there an X in math? And they were like, Dave. And they'd dumb it down and dumb it down. I'm like, I'm retarded. I think I need to go to that class. Like, I felt...

Like I felt because both my brothers have like really high IQs and I'm like I'm I'm stupid like I you know, so I felt really small in that area and I and I and I made up the story like I suck at sports I go so this this is it This is all I'll ever be good at. And now I'm going to fully buy in to what my mom's saying. And because I grew up with the Asian work ethic, I'm like...

It's not a fit. I am good. I it wasn't like I am gonna be the best I was like I just adopted I am the best artist in the world and to that power of thought like I sat down And I'd go to museums. I studied everything. I studied comic book art, cereal boxes, museums, fine art. Why does this... I just got into the business side of art, the creativity, fucking loose watercolors, like...

Tiny, detailed pen, like everything. And I was like, and I was like, overcome. I'm like, I'm going to be good at all of it. Oil painting. So people go, what kind of artist? I'm an artist. Everything. When I talk, when I make music. I am going from, I'm a piece of shit. I suck to like, like, you know, not healthy, but you know, it was like, I am art God, you know, like, and so I was like in my twenties, just like.

brain like waking up and then like that's not how I naturally woke up I woke up like oh fuck you know and I'd wake up and I'd have to put that on like you're the greatest you know like um hypnotizing myself you're the best you're the fucking best You're the greatest. Were you doing any reading books? Because at the time, when you and I are basically the same age, back then, it wasn't a lot about neuroscience and this and that.

actualization it was all kind of you know hidden away but there was this there were You know, there was like the Tony Robbins type stuff. And there was this idea and infomercials and stuff that you could program your mind. Sounded like you just basically took all that on.

Without any of that. Yeah, I didn't read any of that stuff. I stole lots of books and I would read a lot of pornography. I guess this kind of, I could... fit my Pee Wee Herman story if we're talking about publishing it's hard to talk about this because kids ask me all the time like how'd you make it in art and like nothing I did applies to today you know it's like I went to Kinko's I would have to spend my money or figure out how to

do that copy thing, that trick to make more copy because color copies are 99 cents. It's like who has, so I'd have to pick which one of my paintings were the best, make these like mini color copy packets. So that's $10. And then.

I would go to the newsstand and write the address, like Rolling Stone, like all the magazines that had prestige and like C.F. Payne, Kent Williams, Baron Story, like all these amazing illustrators that... would work for a time magazine rolling stone playboy like they would all use so i would open the the front page where it had the heading of art direct and i would write write it down and the new stand guys like

I sound like a boomer right now like you know it's like who the fuck like there's kids listening right now this magazine what's that you know but that's what I have to do and I would be like which magazine do I want to send this $10 packet that I just and then I have to mail it to and hopefully like they get that

letter and not some other department you know and then you just rejection letter after you know like sorry sorry sorry and um so I'm I'm I'm sitting down and I'm I'm like, I'm ingesting all this, and I have the fire, and I'm like sitting down, and I go, that, like, what, why is that?

drawing successful why do you know and of course there's tons of insider trading and corruption in the art world but i didn't know that at the time right it's like oh that guy's dad owns fucking water like that guy you know so I would just sit there and I would be like that guy drew this much I'm gonna draw 10 like that guy did this and I'm gonna draw you know and I and I just

Some of my paintings, all my paintings back then had like at least seven layers, if not more. Just layering and layering and dancing. It was me. It's like a musician that's like I have to like I saw a thing with Rick Rubin and Flea doing Give It Away Now and he was just like you know he can do but he was like just like just play less and

Back then it wasn't. It was like I need to show everyone what I'm capable of, which is I can draw better than you. I can paint. I have to show you that. Now I don't care. But back then it was – and it isn't that. Art is a – it's not who can – put the most lines down or you know and so i'm i'm trying to i'm trying to like and it was just everyone has their own path but i remember year 2000.

I'm doing graffiti. I'm getting some gigs to do murals. You know, it's just slowly starting. And someone contacted me at Marvel Comics. And I was like, man, I didn't even try. And like, this is it. This is my dream. And then we want you to draw the X-Men, but like a cool, cool X-Men. I'm like, fuck, I didn't even have to go to portfolio day. I didn't have to, you know.

And I go, oh, I knew if I just kept putting my shit out there, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm what, 23 at the time, you know? And I start drawing it, and I guess they fired me? or they didn't fire me. They just decided to use a different artist, but they never told me. So I'm still drawing it. And I'm, you know, I'm a passive aggressive, angry kid already. And I didn't email. Some people had emails, but a lot, like a lot of artists hadn't.

This is the beginning of the internet. Like people weren't using it the way they do now. And I remember it was like the first message board where my friends were like, hey, Dave, you got fired off the X-Men book? And I go, how did you know? And they go, you don't use the internet? And I go, what is that?

And they showed us, and I felt shame again. I was like, oh, my God. Like, I was so excited to, like, there's little things in my head. Like, if I do a comic book, that means I made it. And I wrote the most scathing, homophobic. Racist. Like just, I was mad. I thought it was funny. I was 23 at the time. And it was like 10 pages long. But I didn't know the editor of Marvel. It's probably not even him. It was just, and I didn't know how to get it to him.

So I just went to Marvel's website and I just sent it to every single person that works at Marvel, like copy, paste. And the next day was my first experience in the year. You know, Y2K in 1999, 2000 of Going Viral. They're like, every artist I look up to, every writer I look up to in comics was like, we don't know who the fuck this kid is, but he just committed career suicide. And then once again.

shame and so like if i go back to all my shame stories i go what's what's the through line and we should have made the secret word shame but um oh i'm a shame chaser like i get high off shame like what's my drug oh Workaholism, it's like my drug that I've chased my whole life is shame and anger. Like a fucking powerful drug, you know? And so...

I couldn't believe it. I was like, I'm never going to get to draw the Hulk, Spider-Man, Wolverine. And I have at this point. And I went through the back door, which I always do. It's true. True Vandal. I just remember going, holy fuck, this is the worst day of my life. People that I look up to, there was a whole thing of, I don't know who this Dave Cho, I've never heard of him, but he's a horrible human being. And I was like, but...

It was context. Like, you should have heard how I saw it in my head. Like, you know, like, oh, it looks different. And I was like, holy fuck. And that was my first experience of like, of just feeling.

like me following a pattern of trying to replicate hatred towards me like like if it's but not knowing it I'm just like oh I don't know what the fuck I'm doing and like some ignorance some playing dumb some like repeating patterns like a monkey without knowing and and and so I had a friend in comics at the time because I was just like I don't

I was just making art. I was going out doing graffiti every fucking night, just doing that OCD, playing music in my head and just tagging up everything. Like the kind of graffiti you're not supposed to do. People's cars, houses. Like I wanted someone to kill me. Like I didn't care. Like I wanted someone to be like, dude, I worked hard for that car and you just ruined it.

And in my head, I'm like, but I'm a famous artist, which I wasn't. I'm 23. And they're like, I just made your car more valuable. That's how I'm thinking. But I was out of my mind. You probably did make their car more valuable in retrospect. Can I ask you a question about the shame? Absolutely.

I have a friend. He's an addiction trauma counselor guy, amazing guy. He's been on this podcast. His name is Ryan Suave. He has a gift for helping people understand trauma and addiction and this kind of thing.

We haven't talked a lot about addiction yet today, but you said you got addicted to the shame. And do you think – I mean, who knows? Here I'm using my intellectual brain, but do you think that the – that these oscillations of like your your mindset like i'm a great artist i'm the greatest artist sets it up so the shame is that much deeper like it's like loading a spring or uh because he told me once

Ryan once told me he's worked with heroin addicts, drug addicts of all kinds, sex addiction, everything. And he just said, you know, he goes, gambling addiction is the worst because the next time really could change it all. And he said, but there's something really interesting that happens to gambling addicts. He goes, eventually they get tired of winning and they get addicted to losing. Happens really quick. So...

I have my own feelings about this subject. I'm a severe gambling addict. Like, I told you I'm going to time jump, so I'm at that point, but I'll jump to the current, which is... which is a very shameful thing for me to admit or talk about, but, you know, I'm here, so I'll just go there. Shame is so powerful because...

At this point, I've been to all the 12-step meetings. I've been to Debtors Anonymous, Business Owners, Debtors Anonymous, Overeaters Anonymous, Workaholics, Sex and Love Addicts, Sex Addicts. uh gambling like all every single and so what's the through line every single one is gambling every single addiction is gambling addiction if you drink and drive you're gambling your life could be over and you're you know

If you overeat and you're diabetic, it's just every fucking addiction is... So addiction is one of those things you can't apply logic to. And your scientist friend nailed it. And as I explore my feelings, you know, because the people, what are you running from, Dave? And it's like, well, I'm fucking running from myself, dude. I don't want to look in the mirror. I don't want to see myself. I hate myself.

So I'm just running so as long as I'm like doing graffiti running from the police You know just just just hopping on a train like like literal running like literally running to make sure I'm never sit still for one second like what are you doing Dave I'm playing drums in a band I'm fucking you know at a casino I'm traveling doing the news for Vice I'm painting at this like I can't

I can't sit still because that means I have to sit with myself and I can't do that. I can't do that. I couldn't do that. I couldn't do that. I can now. So, you know what feels good? Winning a lot of money. Not working for it and sitting down at a casino and them knowing who you are and upping the limits and you... Literally making enough money off Baccarat or Blackjack what people don't make in a lifetime. That's a fucking, that's an insane feeling. How many shits do you think I took today?

before i came here rob how many two two one big one and one little one like scientists don't know what causes ibs i do It's stress. When I was gambling, when I was at the height of any of my addictions, seven shits a day at least. Just like, okay, like just like. And you would never see it on my face, or maybe you would, but I felt like I could gamble with a fortune in front of me and lose it and win it and, like, nothing. Nothing. Like, I was...

You know, disassociated, dead inside, whatever you want to say. I didn't feel anymore, right? Like the highs were so high. I had already been chased by the cops. I'd already been beaten the shit out of. I've already been molested before. I already... Whatever you could do to me, you've already done to me and I'm still here. What can you do to me that I... Like, I'm my worst enemy. Like, I beat myself up, right? When the gambling stopped, when I got into recovery, when I... Like, I take...

One shit a day now. When this fucking asshole asked me to do the podcast, I start stressing. I've taken, when was that? Like a few weeks ago? It's, it, oh shit, dude. I just took three shit. It started again. because i don't have stress in my life anymore or like i have whatever normal family stress but i don't have oh you're gonna say something on some guy's show and then your life's gonna be ruined again you know like that's i've done that so many times it's like

So I'm like, fuck, I just woke up. I just already took a shit. Why do I take another one? I'm like, oh, the IBS is coming back because there's a part of me that's like, I hope I say something horrible today because then I could feel that again. And so what people...

When they're listening to this and I don't know if I'm making, when I talk, sometimes I make sense to myself and sometimes I don't, but if you're an addict, it will make sense to you. If you're, if like everyone listening to this is either an addict or.

Or someone in their life is, like their family member or their friend. But at this point, with social media and their phones, everyone's an addict, right? You can't stop. It's just impossible. You will never... find anything more addictive than a phone right so in the time that like i haven't been in an actual casino in 10 years i've banned from all these casinos the whole world became a casino you can't go anywhere without gambling a fucking lottery you can go on your phone you could bet on

you know anything right so so at first in every addiction you want to win oh fuck that you know i i can't i can relate to drugs and alcohol even though i don't do that But, like, that must feel good to, like, get a little drunk and then be the funniest guy at the party. So eating the most delicious foods that I ever ate that I never thought I would eat in my life and then...

Okay, that's good. Your body feels good. Why do you need to eat until you're puking and you become like binging and purging? Because what you don't understand because you're applying logic to it is I want... to fucking hurt I want this like winning a million dollars feels fucking great losing 10 million dollars feels even better well that doesn't make any sense like getting married feels awesome

I mean, I'm just making shit up. But, like, put, like, greatest day of my life. Right? Like, greatest day of my life. And I could get dark. I'll try not to use dark examples. But when... something awesome marriage having a child winning a lot of money doing drugs and having one of the best days of your life like just when it's on the good side it feels that's why you do it heroin fucking feels good i've never done it but

the description of it is like, that sounds awesome. Why would you not do it again? But then when you're fucking scratching your skin and sucking dick for fucking crack, like, that's another high where you're at the bottom.

And that's a repetition of the pattern of whatever your childhood was. And so I don't fucking know Andrew besides his online persona, right? Like this is our first time meeting in person. It's like... This is not me being a know-it-all. Humans are not that difficult to understand. We're very simple.

I called him immature a little bit before, not to be insulting. It's just like, part of me is like, this is me being a hater. Like, I love everybody, but I'm just like, what fucking adult gets tattoos?

like what kind of adult kids and i know you got tattoos i'm like who just like throws their away to become a skater and then like are you okay with me asking you questions were you sexually abused were you no no i was i mean i knew i had friends that were i i lucked out i had one guy come at me that um

I worked at a skateboard shop in Palo Alto. Maybe you saw Palo Alto Toy and Sport. It was like down on Waverly Street. Guy that worked there did that. I responded differently. I flipped the desk over on him. I made him apologize to me in front of everybody.

And my biggest fear at that point was my mom, even though we had our attention. My mom's from New Jersey. Yeah. She's old school. She knew something happened. And my fear was that if I told her that she would actually kill him. Oh. Like actually kill him.

Like, and, you know, because despite, you know, whatever challenges she and I have had over the year, like that maternal aggression, that protectiveness, she would have killed him. So I remember being... like not worried about me worried that she was going to kill him you know and then um but no i i lucked out there i perceive you as a brilliant man and this is this is me gathering data and facts

In my life, not, I don't know what the, but, you know, you know, very smart. I know geniuses, you know geniuses. The smarter the person, the more intellectual they are, the more on the spectrum they are. the greater the trauma they experience. Because whether that was always in them and the trauma unlocked it, or you learn that as mental jujitsu to, like...

These people I know in my life that are just brilliant, like they're just, they can comprehend things that most people can, they could create. Their childhood was so fucking unsafe. Abandonment, you know.

and usually that's what i asked you about it's usually sexual trauma because that's that has carries the most shame that they're like i was small i couldn't defend myself that unless i become like like a jujitsu master or fighter how can i protect myself and it's with this so then something gets unlocked here and they become the smartest person in the room and they can just destroy you verbally they can destroy you in a courtroom they can just they can just and and

And so, yeah, to answer, you become a shame chaser. You get high off shame. And it's like, it's even shameful to admit out loud. And so, like, I could sit here and like... If I'm being present with current, with up to date, like I have a great life. Like I'm telling you a lot of stories from the past, feelings that I felt in the past. And I have, you know, I tell on myself all the time. When old patterns come up, I...

You know, I have a therapist. I got a men's group. I got friends who love me. I raise my hand. I go, I need help, which I never did before. I grew up with shut the fuck up and figure it out. My whole childhood was a question mark. Where are we going? What are we doing? Nothing was explained to me. And so there was a lot of violent, a lot of abandonment. And so I just, everything, and that's probably why I'm really curious and ask a lot of questions.

i didn't know what was happening and my parents were just like working all the time they're like i don't know stay at this house or this and i was just like who are these people like what's happening what's why is this guy baptizing me for the 10th you know like why am i getting on a plane this is like It was just like, just shut up. Just go along to get along. And so part of my story is if I'm a nice boy, if I'm a nice Asian boy and I do, then...

Then the world shits on me. Then everything horrible. The second I fucking speak up, scream, get the fuck off, like just do graffiti, break the law, then I get to do the Linkin Park album cover. Then I get... Sean Parker. It's like, and you know, I talked to all the jackass guys about this. It's like, you're rewarded for bad behavior. You get to be the president. You get to, you know, like the more act. And it's so in one way, okay, that's.

for career right but like what about it just runs hell on your personal life and that's why when i when i'm in my addiction and i'm chasing shame i drag everyone who loves me down with them so i go i i need to And I don't need my wife or anyone to be my mom. I'm like, I'll handle it. That's how I grow myself up. And it doesn't need to be like I said, brilliance is founding.

Milpitas and Palo Alto and Gilroy. Brilliance is found in the mundane, sitting in the waiting room. Brilliance is found in these like quiet moments. And so it's like, I don't need to go to rehab and have like this fucking movie role kind of, it's just like, it's a phone call. It's like, let me do this. And so the feelings, the chemistry, it's like when you lose all the money you've ever made in your life in a coin flip.

And you're just sitting there like. No worries. Hopefully I didn't get any on the microphone. What's that line from that 80s movie? It's not a party till something's broken. I always like that line because it excuses it immediately. Some breaks, folks. You just say, it's not a party till something's broken. In this case, it was my soul. So I was very... reckless with my heart. I treated myself very poorly. I didn't care for... I didn't care what happened to me. And so...

As I jump from addiction to addiction, it's like, well, which is the one I can hide in plain sight? The one that you're in right now. Workaholism. As long as you work all the time, as long as you're providing people, as long as you're helping people and being of service, then that's good, right? But what is being neglected in that? This, like.

I mean, I don't tell this to everyone, but like someone in your situation that, you know, you have life changes coming up. And I already know your answer, but I would ask, why not take one year off? like why it's like well i got my this and i'm an important stanford guy and i got yeah but that will like like you only got one life and you know there's something about it that feels like when I'm in my workaholism. Like that's the one where I get, in this society, a pat on the back. Good job, Dave.

you know the the sean parker story with the with the warner brothers that was a win i was like fuck yeah you know um but it was it was so much Can I tell my Pee Wee Herman story? There's some shame in that. I'll bring it around. I just don't, you know, part of my character defects is entitlement and impatience. Like, I just...

once I accepted what my mom is saying true. I am the greatest artist in the world, according to Jane Cho. And now I'm going to start, you know, not at first, but like, I'll start to believe that too. Because you got to... It's so scary doing graffiti. You know, not in a crew, not in a gang. To just go out and it's like, it's something so comforting to draw in a tiny sketchbook and no one's going to see it.

right you fuck up whatever but to draw something big on a wall and everyone going down the 101 freeways like thousands of people will see it before eight o'clock like that sucks that guy has no can control that guy injures like you're you're naked you're like this is what's inside me and i did it 40 feet long and here it is and they're like it sucks shame i'm chasing shame like it's like

What would it feel like if everyone's like, dude, that's the fucking masterpiece. Not as cool. Not as cool. So I'm just, I'm doing the thing. I'm sending my art out.

La Brea used to have a lot of galleries and I and I and in my head I thought my art was better than every artist that was in those I would be like and I'd go down the street and I'm like oh they show that I would keep a record of what kind of art they show that I'd

skate back to my house and paint like that style but better in my mind better and then i make a new portfolio and i'd go down like and they're like who the fuck like like it's like adult like you have to be shown first before they'll even take and i go but

You know, so just anger, more frustration, coming out sideways, coming out doing more graffiti, shoplifting, food to like, you know. So then I finally get to La Brea and Melrose where there was a... ice cream shop called double rainbow and there's this wonderful lady named candace there and i was saying how i'm talking now first like out loud and my art's just right here and she's like let me see and i show it to her

And she's like, this is amazing. I go, I fucking know, dude. I'm the best. And she's like, all right, shut the fuck out, all right? She's like, put it up on the wall. And then my ego goes, in a fucking ice cream shop? And I go, well, I guess no one else is offering that. Okay. So it was like. Not this. It wasn't like minimalist. It was floor to ceiling, hundreds of paintings, some that I spent months on. Like this was singular, just...

I'm the best and I need to show you. It wasn't like tasteful. Like here's one painting and let that breathe. And it was just like, here's, you know, and people are coming in there buying like mint chocolate chip going, Oh, that's pretty cool. You know? And so every day I would get a call, love your art, want to buy it. I'm like, fuck yeah, here we go. Like $2. I'm like, you know how long I spent on that art? And I just was like.

50 bucks you know i'm 23 this is like early 2000s i'm like that's that's less than the art supplies that i stole to be fair but still i'm like can you cover the cost of materials and they're like yeah that's good but you know can you just like haggling like five ten i'm like that's what a fucking print or sticker costs like this is an original painting you know

And I remember I got a call one day and it's these things that I keep, the stories that I keep editing in my mind to make me the hero, you know. And the guy's like, I'll trade you a car for like that giant painting, the one that I spent months on. And of course it's like... 1972 Plymouth Fury, no breaks, like cracked wind, you know, just a complete fucking beater, like piece of shit. But then the story in my head that I go around telling, you know, part of my PR marketing is like.

I traded my art for a car for, you know, oh, yeah. And I'm like, you don't need to know the details of the car, you know. And the guy in the, you know, recycler was trying to sell it for like $200, $300, you know. He's like, just get this shit off my lawn, you know. And I remember.

This is how I drove it. I would drive it and there was no brakes. There was like fuel and I had to pump it like a block before. And then I would always hit the car like ding. And the guy would say, hey, what the fuck? And I'd be like, sorry. I had no money to fix it, but I was just in my head, I did it. I fucking, I did it. You know, like small victories, little victories. And then my friend's like,

Uh, like, like I knew all like the indie zine, like make your own fucking punk rock. Like, and I would just get rejection letter after just, just the continuation of you're not enough. Your art's not that good. You suck. Maybe they wouldn't say that, but that's how I took everything. Not at this time. Not for us. Rejection letter from Playboy, from Rolling Stone.

And I just remember one of my friends, he just always had like nice sketchbooks. And I go, where are you getting that money? Like, you're a full-time artist? And he was like a dirty punk rock guy. And he's like, you know the skin rags pay just as much. it's like they have none of the prestige and like you know i went to the tower records warehouse once where uh they distributed a calendar i made and it's like here's here's like this whole table is the warehouse this is like

You know, Sports Illustrated, Rolling Stone, this and all of this is porn. Right. So, you know, you don't want to brag about that, but that's just they're like they pay literally the same amount as Rolling Stone, but it's not Rolling Stone. So I go, okay, I guess I'm doing that. So then I go to the part of the magazine stand where, you know, there's a curtain. And I go back and I start, you know, butthole fever. Just start writing down the art director's name. And...

That was the thing is like, I cared. I cared so much about it. It was important to me. It saved me. Art saved me. So it didn't matter if I was doing a logo for. Nike or Toyota or like you know I just was like this is you're still looking at me even though if I'm doing a corporate job like I'm I'm in there and I need you to see me and I am even though if I hate the job and you're not even paying me

I'm still going to do my best no matter what. I have pride in my work, you know, and I get that from my parents also. And I love that. I'll go to restaurants where I don't even like the food because I know the waiter is like running to bring me water. He cares. Like anytime, that's the secret ingredient to anything. Anytime I feel like the person cares, it just, it's such a warm feeling, you know?

And I cared. And I still do. I care a lot. Like, I sit here, I don't give a fuck. I do. I care maybe too much. So I write the number for... You know, I try the legit ones versus Penthouse and Playboy, and they're like, nope, nope. I'm like, I guess I go to Hustler and Buttman and, you know, Asian Fever, and I get a call from Buttman.

you know they're like these butthole paintings you did they're they're just they're so good and i'm like i worked really hard on it you know it's not like what i want to be doing but and uh they're like can you can you come in and it's just True to their title. That's all it is. It's just all anal. There's no stories about anal There's page after page and they go can you do like This but like every week I'm like

What do you need? They're like, you know, Superman fucking Lois Lane, anal, Spider-Man fucking, you know, midgets, like whatever, like just all anal. And I go, I can do that. I would love to do that. And like we pay. you know a couple hundred bucks i was like and i took it serious it wasn't like a it was like this is my and a lot of actually famous artists would do that but under fake names and they didn't want to be associated their real art with that i was like and

So I did all this art for Buttman. Once again, if you want to cut out any names, I remember everyone's name. Art director was Heidi. She was so sweet. She's like... It's just like I was only used to my mom saying she likes my art. So anytime someone not in my family said they liked it, it was, oh, it's not just my mom. Like other people like it, you know.

But also this massive narcissist, like, I'm the best. And I'm like, no, I'm not that good. But it's like both. And I don't know why this always kept happening, but... All these places I always worked at, they would always go, you got such funny stories. Like, do you got any, you know, and I was like, I think I'd been with one girl. They're like, you have any like butthole stories?

And I had been trained by Black Belt and Lying, my mom. She was like, yeah, of course. It was so easy for me. They're like, oh, because these depictions of anal sex are so... They're so graphic and fantastic. And every time you come in, you have some weird story. Like, do you know any women in your life that have experiences like this? And I go, oh, yeah, like super racist against Asians. I go, oh, yeah, like.

Susie Suzuki, like just making up fake names. They're like, you know someone named Susie Suzuki? I go, oh yeah, yeah. She goes, do you think she would write about her experiences? And I'm like... how dumb is this lady like i don't fucking know anyone named like what the fuck and she goes it's 40 bucks a story and i'm like cool like they're paying me 150 200 bucks for this i'll so i go home and i would just write the most ridiculous

Hi, don't speak English. You know, this is the voice I hear in my head. I come to America, need a job. And just writing like every like ridiculous male fantasy, like, and then he put in the wrong hole. And. pornography. I became a pornographer. Like I'm not, it's not like the proudest moment of my life, but I'm like, Oh God, you know, if God's looking down on me, probably, you know, but once again, shame, I'm cool with it. I I've made.

I've made myself at home. Like most people, they change their name. But I was like, this is what I do. I'm a fucking, you know. So here we go again. My fucking poor parents, you know. So I'm living at home, right?

So I could have done a better job hiding the graffiti. I didn't. They see the spray paint. They see the fucking paint on all my clothes. Was it good? Were you happy with the graffiti? No, I hated it. I have so much respect for it. that like it's it's everything it's physicality you're you're climbing you're you're ninja it's like fucking navy seal like it's crazy like you need to do a detail of a nose while you're balancing on barbed wire i mean it's

Yeah, those kids are crazy. It's insane. I'm like, fuck, dude. These people, if they had a little bit of guidance, they could have been like Navy SEALs, Green Berets, whatever.

So my dad of course find you know my pet once again And then I sit here now as I tell the story and it's coming Why didn't I hide it better? Oh, like maybe I wanted to get caught, you know my dad fucking throws like you know just like once again it's like this like think about my dad it's like his friends are like going you know his friends kids are like getting the highest SAT scores they're getting accepted into Stanford and

And they're like, my son has hair covering his eyes. You know, and I think I was starting to get into, like, shitty 80s, like, Warrant and Winger and Cherry Pop, you know, like that kind of, like, I listen to everything. And just shame. Like literally, like not feeling it, but like having another human, your father tell you, I'm so embarrassed of my son. I'm so embarrassed, like, like.

anger tears like just breaking like why why why did i come to this country why did you know just like and i i like i just It's like now I could feel more when I told it but like before I just like Like I just pretended like it was happening to someone else, you know, I just disassociated I'm like whatever bro like but it wasn't whatever it was like my dad disappointed in me my mom disappointed in me

And I'm like, fuck, man, it's not really working out for me. Like, just rejection after rejection, and I just... I remember the shipping. Like, it was in the Larry Flint building, Wilshire in La Cienega. And I was like, fuck, I live like a, like I could skate there. Like I'd rather, and I was scared to like send, oh, so this is what happened. So I got busted. The lady.

I don't know if she was a lesbian or something. She's like, I need to meet Susie Suzuki. It wasn't Suzuki. It was a name like that. It was like Trisha Toyota or something. And I go, Heidi, are you serious right now? It's like, like. I wrote that story. That story's ridiculous. Like, in my head, I'm like, it's so obvious a guy wrote that, you know? And she's like, hey, we might be Buttman magazine, but we print the truth. And I was like, what?

the fuck you telling me the penthouse letters are like shut the fuck up and she's like she's like took all my art threw it at me it's like you will never be publishing butt man anymore like she just you're done here and i was like

I spent a long time on those paintings. Like, I... All the folds of the butthole. Like, I really tried hard. Like, you know, it's like, rejection. Like, I had gotten so used to... my parents being disappointed in me gallery art like it was just it was like cool i don't all right didn't feel i i mean i'm sure it didn't feel good but i had figured out a way to internalize it and just all right

And then do my mom's delusional thing. But I'm still the best. Even though the world's telling me, like, you're a loser. And I go, okay, who's the art director at Hustler? W.T. Nelson. Okay, I'm going to. So I call them and I go, hey, I live, you know, I can skate there, you know, take me like an hour to get there. But I have these paintings and I don't want to send them in the mail. I never sent paintings in the mail before.

And I'd rather save on the shipping. And he's like, I don't know you, dude. And I don't really, but I had already sent the color copies and the pages that they had printed, but man, and he's like, but all right, I guess you could come. And I'm like.

Like, yes, I'm going to go to the Larry Flip building. This is going to be so cool, you know? And I go there, and he's just like, yeah, if you just tweak all these paintings you already did, we'll use those in Asian Fever. We'll use these in, you know, like different. You know, there was Hustler had like 20 different other magazines. And he's like, yeah, like that story is awesome. We'll print that story. And I was like, OK, cool. So I'm like, am I am I a writer?

You know, part of me was like, I'm a writer. I'm a published writer. Technically, you're a professional writer at this point. And at the time, I was also writing for Vice. I was writing for Giant Robot, also not getting paid. Like, this was the first time I got paid, so it felt like, oh. Did Batman pay you?

No, they didn't. Because they, we had that fight and they never sent the, you know. Apparently they quote only... print the truth but they also don't pay their bills so yeah the truth only goes so far for them so I it was me it was like I can see a lot of my mom in that now of how the reality is i'm not successful i'm a pornographer but in my head i'm like i'm published i'm a real artist like and i'm a writer i'm a scholar you know like i and then he i remember

WT Nelson paid me and then it wasn't that much money and like and now it's just like that awkward like yeah we usually don't have the artists come to the it's all like through mail and I don't know you

You want some porn? This was before Facebook. Yes. Okay. Because the reason I ask is... and i don't want to take you off track because i was wondering when facebook eventually paid out when the equity popped basically i'll get to all of it and i'm going to time jump but like it's just uh yeah sure i want to stay i want to stay in the feeling please

I'm trying to, because these are all stories I've told before, but like I've never told them from like an emotional perspective. It's always just been like almost bragging. I go, like I'm trying to. for the first time like sit sit in it and because i want to focus a little bit on the shame part you know and and part of you know part of being an artist is just constant rejection it's like asking a girl out like over and over again it's like

you're fat, you're ugly, no thanks, you're not, you know, it's like, and for art, it's art is different, you know, like what you think is cool, I might think it's cheesy, and it's like, now I can see that, but before, I was like, you're in the presence of greatness.

and you're saying no to me like i'm like okay okay all right i guess it's not good you know so it's what i present and what i feel inside I'm excited to share that Matina, the yerba mate drink I helped create, is now available at Whole Foods stores nationwide.

Long-time listeners of this podcast know that yerba mate is my preferred caffeine source. It provides smooth energy without giving you the jitters, and it has a lot of other potential benefits, including helping to regulate your blood sugar, improving digestion, mild appetite suppression, and much more.

Matina is my absolute favorite of all the yerba mate brands out there, and I've tried them all. Given my love for Matina, I decided to become a part owner in the business, and I helped them create their new line of products, which are all entirely zero sugar.

These zero sugar cold brew Matina flavors are fantastic. I drink at least three cans of them every single day. You'll often see them on the table during my podcast recordings. I absolutely love the product and I'm proud to now have it sold at Whole Foods. So check out Matina at Whole Foods.

food stores nationwide. It's cold brewed with the absolute best ingredients. It has zero sugar and it tastes amazing. And if you don't have a Whole Foods near you, you can also buy it online at drinkmatina.com.

they just started sending me boxes and porn porn was expensive now these spoiled kids today it's you know you could see anything right it's just free internet But back in the day, if you wanted to buy a video cassette or a DVD or a magazine, those things were like $20. Like it was expensive. And now I'm getting these care packages from Hustler.

shit that I'm not even into, like bodybuilder, chicks with, you know, like just a lot of shit. And I'm like, it looked crazy at my apartment. Like it was just, I'd finally moved out of the house. I was dating this girl, this crazy actress, and I just, it was Florida, like every room in the house had some kind of, it was like kind of my identity. They were like, Dave, the, you know, and.

She was starting to get disgusted. She's like, who am I? Who am I dating? You know, and I've always like at the core of all my addictions is codependence. It's I don't know what's happening. The world is scary. I don't feel safe and I need to go along to get along and I need to do, I need to make myself small so that everyone around me feels okay and at the cost of me. That's what I need. And so...

Oh, you like that kind of art? Then I'll, I'm a chameleon. I'll switch to that. Oh, you like, oh, you like Fugazi? Okay, I'll listen to Fugazi. You know, and there's like, it's not black and white. Some of it's true and some of it's like a mask. And I'm sitting there just really struggling, like stealing fish down my pants so I could eat dinner. Like I'm not getting paid. Like there's no money coming in. Like graffiti doesn't pay.

The pornography, like getting paid in porn is cool, but it's not money, you know? They're like, hey, you want... And I have a, you know, I have a sickness. I have a sex addiction. So it's like, hey, do you want 200 bucks or do you want... one thousand dollars in porn which is nothing to them it's just you know so i'm having a i'm just having a hard time and i i get to my 72 plymouth fury who like every time i get in i could kill myself or something you know

And there's a note on the door, and it says, doing a period piece movie in Los Angeles, your car, 1970, fits the time. Can we dress it up to make it look like an undercover?

you know pays something ridiculous like a thousand bucks a day or something like fuck like help like these small victories you know oh fuck yeah i show up the next day it's on the street everything in the street they made it look like 1970s there's all these other 1972 and they made it they put the sirens on the top they took the license plate off and the guy that's like dressing my car one of the

you know the the union guys looks in the back and he's like yo this guy has so much porn in the back of his car and i was like yes you know like And I go, what's this movie? And I see Johnny Depp come out of the house, and he's got blonde hair and a ponytail, and it's Blow, that movie Blow with Pee Wee Herman, right? But he wasn't in that scene. And I'm like, what?

holy i love johnny depp i'm like oh that's johnny depp and um this guy's being really loud he's like this guy has a lot of porn not just like and i and i'm like oh yeah i work for hustler you work for hustler so i remember just that was the first time i saw like a celebrity on that level in real life and i was like oh he's kind of short but like he was like signing autographs and talking to everyone i'm like this guy looks he seems very friendly you know like he had that

whatever charisma riz the kids say and star quality so then it's uh you know craft service lunch you know i'm i'm i've never been on a movie set before and i'm just like i'm getting paid to do nothing and just and i was like between all the the background guys i was the the man because i had so much porn you know so i just had i grabbed a sampling of it i had some of the

Some of the ones that I had drawings in and I put some like book, you know, I don't know. It's like maybe Johnny Depp's gonna see my butthole paintings and be like, hey, paint me, you know, like, I don't know. That's my delusion, right? So...

i'm like is he gonna eat in his own trailer or is he gonna be down with the crew and he was down with the crew so it's like lunch and it was just a scene like with i think ray liotta and like all this and i'm just sitting there and i'm like i want johnny depp to see like i want to like i don't know and i'm i'm like who the i have i'm like 23 i've you know i'm like

I do graffiti. I got a car that doesn't work. But I was like, it's going to happen. So he's sitting down with the crew. He's telling stories. I didn't have to do it. Another guy was like, hey, Johnny, this guy has all this porn in this guy. He's like, oh, really? I can't do a Johnny Depp impression. And I was like, my cue, I was like, hey, Johnny, like...

See, this is my art, and, you know, I had some Buttman in there. I grabbed a sampling of my, you know, maybe I had some color copies of my art, and he flips through it. He's in his wig, and he's like...

Like it's it's a lot of butts, you know, it's like It's pretty singular vision. I go, yeah, I could do other stuff and you know, he just hands it back to me I'm like, oh fuck I was like, oh, thanks Johnny, you know, and I was like oh that was cool and then i'm like trying to spin that in my head of like it immediately goes to he fucking hates you what like stupid still like why did you you know like why did you do that and then um

Yeah, I don't know the movie. Like, you know, when they do a Hollywood movie, they change the name. I didn't know it was going to be Blow. Like, that movie's awesome. And I feel, like, defeated. And they're like, hey, you know, we were going to pay you for two days, but we finished the scene, so you're only going to get paid for one day. And I'm like, pfft.

i'm gonna get as much chicken as possible so i started getting the tupperware and you know like i'm gonna eat for like a week off this craft service food and i'm i'm walking out and i see all the star wagons and i see on the door paul rubens I'm like, here we go. Like fucking my childhood. I'm like, and he had gotten cotton jerking off in a movie theater or something. I didn't give it. Like, I always.

Maybe I can verbalize it better with the shame, but like when Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting or like all of that always made sense to me and it endeared me to, it made me, it made them look human. I was like, that's weird. My hero, my childhood hero that did Pee Wee's Big Adventure, Pee Wee's Playhouse, getting caught jerking off. And why did he do that? Why didn't he do it at home? But I, even those things I didn't understand. I was like, now I'm like.

love that guy like I like I have nothing but compassion for like and that's like a lot of stuff that I had to work out with myself because a lot of things I do now is I work with, you know, murderers and at-risk youth and children. Like, I'll work with anybody because my old... self is like fuck this dude fuck this person fuck you you hurt me revenge revenge very korean you know and now i go if you know and i work with people in prisons i go

If you're willing to be a better version of yourself, I'm not a scientist, but I can use art and creativity to work with you to be a better person. Or try at least, if you're willing. Only if you're willing. If you're not willing, then I don't want to waste my time.

you know great so you know fuck it i'm gonna do it so johnny don't want the porn here i write a little i don't remember exactly what i wrote and i was like biggest fan love you i i think i wrote like i don't care what they say about you like i'm still love you and i can draw other stuff but here's stuff i've done for and i left it on his thing i knocked and i i was too embarrassed to like and i ran away and

I mean, it just, there was so many moments. I remember... you know and then so like it's it's gradual right like it's like okay and then this little thing happens and this but and uh you know it was like i don't know a decade before the facebook and also i don't pay attention to that stuff

So as the Facebook stuff was rising, Sean would text me and he's like, hey, you know, those shares are worth a quarter million now. But then at the time I was gambling and I was making that much gambling. So I was like, whatever, I don't care. And he's like, oh, you know, they're worth a million now. I had quietly become a millionaire by the time I was 30. I had a huge art show with Steve Lazaridis, who's Banksy's art guy, and I was like, I hit at the right time that shit, you know.

Like, oh, fuck you, dad. Look, I fucking made, you know, like the art that he hated me for. I was like, look, there it is, you know. And there was always a lot of anger at that. It's like, you fucking live in a house that was paid for by like spray painted dicks, motherfucker. fuck you who you know like you know and it's like i love my parents it's a love-hate relationship it's complicated or maybe it's not that complicated but it's like um you know hearing

I know how proud of, even though it's not very Asian for a parent from another country to say, I'm proud of you. Like he, he tells, you know, he, he's like. we like kiss on the lips he's like and he rubs my face like i fucking love you dude he doesn't cuss but he's like i love you i'm proud of you and it's like all that shit i just said it's like you know so i have a lot of compassion for for my my family um so like i remember uh and then things like

I started working for Vice. You know, I had this relationship with Gavin McInnes and Shane Smith, and they just, they're like, hey, you went to Africa to look for a dinosaur. You hitchhike. And this was... as print is dying and things are they were the first early adopters of tech and you know they're like vice is going to move to online i'm like who

I'm always the guy that's like who the fuck you know it's like I'm like Korean Forrest Gump I'm like just in the room with like the most important things in life happening and I go all right cool and they're like what can you film for nothing you know because it was like spike jones was there in the beginning johnny knoxville like you know it was like the beginning of of that advice you know and it all fucked up

because of greed and all that shit but i was like every time i hitchhike something crazy happens they're like okay cool film that so then i started filming thumbs up i think the first i was saying with time i think it was 20 years ago and i do all that shit and then it's like all the things like i was saying that i was arrested for i got shamed for embarrassed for now people are giving me money and jobs and they're like yeah all that fucked up shit can you do it on camera can you

You know, and I was like, oh, they like me. My mother was right, you know? And so one day, my friend Dave Chang, who also is... you know, severe gambling issues, you know, I didn't want to meet that guy because I was like looking in the mirror. He was like, everyone's like, he's you, but of cooking. And I was like, I don't need to meet, like, I need to meet with people that lift me out of my shit, not...

That's why I hate meeting other addicts because then it's like, you know, like you never know how it like right now I'm sitting here telling if I'm getting if I'm being if I started this show telling you what I least want to share. It's like.

Now I'm addicted to Pokemon, right? Like you go, oh, you haven't gambled in a casino in 10 years. You haven't, you know, and then you pat yourself on the back. And then the worst thing happens. My kid gets into Pokemon. I go into a shop. I had no idea that packs cost $20. I open a pack and the worst possible thing could happen. I get the hit card. It's like, you got the Sunbreon, the $1,000. And I'm like, wait, wait, wait, hold on. Wait, what? And I go, oh, this is gambling.

And in six months, I've gone from like, maybe I'll spend a hundred bucks, which at the time I was like for fucking cards. And now I spend thousands of dollars a day on it. And I always... I always turn my addictions, which I'm always open about, into my job. But it's for work. The buttholes, that was for work. You know, everything's for work. It's like, oh, now I'm drawing on the...

I got one for you. I'll give it to you later. I drew on Mike Tyson for you because I know you like Michael Johnson. I should give context. Dave sent me a text yesterday. He said, Oh, what's your favorite Pokemon? And I don't know because I don't follow Pokemon. And he goes, what's your favorite athlete? And I said, Mike Tyson. That's a Pikachu painted on top of Mike Tyson for you. Oh, this is so dope. So, I mean.

Thank you. You're welcome. You know the addictions, the things they say about addiction is it's baffling, cunning, seductive. And so I'm like, oh, I'm not. The gambling comes up in other ways. You know, it's like. trading cards, you know, like little things. And it's like, I don't, I'm not, as a middle-aged man, and I'm shaming myself, it doesn't feel good to be.

you know like like i'm friends with guys that are like like muddy mark who's in the beastie boys like he's 65 and my friend bill poon who i used to do a podcast he's 62 so like i'm I'm a middle-aged man hanging out with other middle-aged men in the middle of the night talking about Predator Badlands, talking about like childish arrested development type of shit. I go... And the thing is like...

I've been to countries and cultures where even being a Mormon when you turn 18, there is a ritual that happens that says, now you're a man. And we don't have that in our culture. So that's why you have grown men.

wearing Pokemon t-shirts and talking about fantasy it's all the same fantasy football it's all fantasy it's all immature shit and you just have grown men collecting toys and comic books and talking about cards and and it's like okay if it makes you happy cool i guess but there's always there's always a part of me that's like dissatisfied like like i i do like my daily affirmations of like i don't

i don't need to do anything today for andrew to like me like i'm enough like i just i have to sit in that and i was like no i gotta and then i i got it from you you know it's like we talked once on the phone before i showed up today and you've sent me a mountain of this yerba mate this delicious matina and i'm like

That's, I fucking like, this is like crack to me now. And I'm like, oh, this guy, I don't know. Hey, can I get some more of that? And I told you I was starting to get sick. And you're like, oh, I'm going to send you some peptides. And I go, what a sweetie. And cute. And.

like awesome and very handsome and like the your shirts the way they fit every time i'm like dude you got some guns and like the clothes look good i'm jealous of your posture um and i just go oh this guy's a caretaker like i haven't i don't even fucking know the guy and he's sending me like i don't know if peptides a drug but he's like i'll help you dave i'll send you these experimental medicines and this and i go thank you but also you don't need to do any of that

yeah like i just wanted to meet you and to be clear i i know i don't have to it's in my nature to want to care for people that i i i feel loved towards i i know but like we just met. And I'm like, those things take time. And then you're like, no, I got people to do that or whatever. And I go, the cost, I'll speak for myself. The cost of that at some point is you, right? When you spend so much time thinking of others, you know, and so.

And it feels like against how I was raised. I go, fuck, this feels selfish for me to, you know, like I never took a, you know, at the height of my workaholism, I was touring with my band. My podcast was DVD, I say, which I did with Asa Akira, Pornstar, and Bobby Lee, and Steve Lee. It was becoming the biggest. There was no one doing podcasts back then. It was Joe.

adam carolla i'm trying to remember it wasn't that it wasn't what it is now you know and so it was it was insane like because i grew up on howard stern and i'm like Just hearing him fight, like you couldn't say a certain thing. And then he'd get punished by the FCC. And then someone was like, hey, Dave, you know what a podcast is? I go, this sounds weird. What's a podcast?

And talking about terrestrial radio and the FCC and rules. And I was like, it's a new canvas. You can say anything? You can fucking say, like, you can fucking cuss until, like. The worst story, like, and I just, I couldn't believe that it existed. I couldn't believe, and so, you know, and I didn't like come in with a mission statement, and I know intention's huge, and part of it was I was just running and running, but.

now in hindsight i go what was that and i was oh shame chasing i was like how can i be as how can i record the downfall of me like like like How much can I go over the edge? How much can I push up against this boundary? Because let me see if you care. First of all, I was like, no one's listening. Turns out it was a lot of people listening.

i didn't know that at the you know we started i was like let's just let's just go let's record our downfall let's record our bottom like as an addict like being being how like i'm chasing shame like i'm like in a way it's like like someone who's like a flasher. They're like, what kind of person gets off on like running down the street? I was like, that's what I'm doing. I'm trying to, I'm not a mentally well person.

That I'm dealing with demons inside me that I don't know how to articulate. So I'm going to workaholism. I'm going and I'm trying to find myself and find out what I'm trying. Like I don't. And it's just so painful. And I feel misunderstood. And I go, let's just fucking say the worst possible things every episode. And make fun of it like a joke. And just like, I mean.

Once again, if I look back and I go, what's the worst things that ever happened to me? Jail, like getting canceled multiple times. It's like all of it led to the best moments of my life. So I don't sit here and judge. Oh, this was good. This was bad. Because good moments lead to bad. It's just life, right? It's fluid and there's a spectrum of good and bad. So I remember just there was so many...

i'm like doing this podcast and in my mind i was like like and like having howard stern write me that going on his show and him telling me afterwards in private dude you're out of control was the greatest compliment you know howard stern the the despite you know the king of all media telling me

And I asked him on the show if he can adopt me, and I'm like, I'm the prince of all media. I fucking do comics, and I do fine art, I do graffiti, I can do anything, you know? And to have that validation and... and you know we don't talk regularly but you know i started sending him watercolor stuff and then he got into water and he's fucking really good like he like everything he went into it and so that was

And then at one point I was talking to his producers about being on Sirius like right after him. And I was like, there's like Jane Cho was right. I am the greatest. Like I can do anything. And then. you know people started listening and they're like these people are saying the worst shit ever and I was like I know but I'm just like don't they know I'm a comedian like you never told anyone like and that's not funny but whatever I mean

I shouldn't have said like a lot of the things I said and I never gave, I don't like, as an artist, I don't like, like here's my black penis I painted on the wall. Like I don't. I paint and I do stuff, but the mistake that I made was words like in the spectrum of entertainment and art. Everyone watches movies and video games. That's up here, so that has the most eyeballs on it. Then you go all the way down to, at the time, podcasts, art galleries. You do whatever you want. No one cares.

And so that's how I was approaching it. And people go, when you paint the most fucking vile, obscene, disgusting shit, it's still a painting, right? But when you say stuff, people take it literally. Like you're coming at a microphone. Like, um, like it's a, Oh shit. I scared myself. Um, that was so good. I love that. Oh my God. That was felt good. Uh, that was a good scream.

that was like your punk rock someone sampled that turned that into a punk rock song um but i i treated it like it was just another you know i i was it was sean parker i'm not blaming it was These people in my life that I witnessed as successful, they didn't take reality seriously, right? I'm like, I don't care. I'm going to say, I'm going to push it as far as I can because I don't care because I don't respect reality. I've never have.

Like, you fucking believe in Santa? Yes! Yes, I believe. Look into my eyes. I believe in Santa Claus. 100%. There's no part of me that doubts that. That's who you're talking to. A mentally ill person working on himself.

Trying to express himself as, you know, like... A perfectly imperfect, unrepeatable miracle of the universe. That's how I... I'm trying my best. That's it. That's it, you know? So I meet... uh david chang i become friends with him he's like let's go to dinner i'm gonna bring my friend and his friend happens to be anthony bourdain immediately like i've met my my brother like i mean he's older than me but it was just

you know, ex-heroin addict, got through it through workaholism, and I could see that he was tired, you know, and he had a thing that he kept saying, he's like, what's your life you just fucking watch tv and watch the simpsons and you know he had this story like i have to live an interesting life and he's like oh i'm doing

You know, so I developed a friendship with him because it was just organic. Like it wasn't like, oh, I want to. He was in a way grooming either Chang or me or Roy Choi. I don't know. He liked Asians, but. He was grooming us to take over basically. And that once again fed my ego of like, oh, he can see what my mom, he thinks I'm special. Like the guy that is the most interesting.

person on the planet wants me to take over like oh my god this is great you know so he's like my you know it's like you're doing you know he's his show changes names no reservations it's it kept changing and so uh You know, every time I ate with him, it was insane. I mean, I don't know if he had eating disorders or what, but it's Anthony Bourdain. So you go in a restaurant and they bring out every fucking food, right? Like everything.

And I go, I'm watching him. He takes a sip of water. Thank you. Can you wrap this up? I'm like, you're not going to eat? Because everywhere he went, every chef wanted to. And he's like, Dave, if I ate all this shit, I'd be like 300 pounds, you know? So I'm like, can I take it home? He's like, yeah, you could have it. And then as I got to know him a little better, every time he came to LA, he'd stay at Chateau Marmont. And I'd be like, is your life just eating at restaurants?

And he's like, yeah. I go, hey, from now on, just come to my house. My mom's like, he's like, I would fucking love that. You know, he closes it. So whenever he'd come to LA, he would go to my mom's house. My mom loved him. Like Tony and my mom were, she, he, I don't know what his relationship with his mom was like, but he loved my mom and he'd always, he knew culture. So he'd always bring the Asian pairs. You know, he knew like, oh, I'm going to a Korean's house. And then after.

a while like when i meet people that i love and i respect i i value the friendship so i don't go and that doesn't mean i don't value you i was like i would love to be friends with you first before doing your podcast but i was like fuck it like let's just jump into it but do it in reverse yeah we'll do it in reverse and same thing like i never asked to be on a show i never but after a while he just was like dave

I'm doing LA. And I go, but haven't you done LA? He goes, yeah, but this is specifically Koreatown. And I go, okay. I mean, I grew up in Korea. I was born and raised in Koreatown. But so then his producer, his production company, 0.0. I loved it because when I did Thumbs Up, I'm everything. I'm the director. I'm the production. Thumbs Up is me, my friend Harry, a camera guy, and a chase van. That's it. It's four people. But I was like, oh, this is what a real TV show is like.

guys setting up shots and it was like a lot of people and I go oh fuck this seems cool like you don't have to so he goes so his producer calls me and goes okay we're gonna set this show up for like two months from now And it's Koreatown-centric. And I go, okay, but do you want to do fake? I'm down. What do you guys need? I know all the restaurants and stuff in Koreatown now, but...

Koreans don't eat Korean food. Like from my era, we didn't have any money. So when we go out, we eat at Sizzler. We eat at Denny's. We don't eat. We get Korean food at home, you know, like so. If he's trying to do an authentic story about where I eat in Korea, it's in Koreatown, it's Sizzler. And like every Korean American I know eats at Sizzler. And so she's like, so you're telling me.

We're going to bring Anthony Bourdain to, you know, spend all this money to take him to sit. I go, hey, I just told you, like, I'll fake it. Like, I'll, I know all the new spots. I know all the chefs. Like, we could, but I didn't eat that shit growing up. He goes, no, Tony loves authenticity. I'm like, we're going to fucking Sizzler then. So we do this whole episode. He comes to my warehouse and he's, I mean, it's like, I mean, pitfall after pitfall. Like, I remember at the time.

Channing Tatum came to my, like he's like his agent, this guy, Bill, Korean guy, Channing Tatum's agent's Korean. And he calls me and he goes, my client Channing Tatum loves you. And like, it's like after all these. Things and getting canceled over and over again in comics and whatever field I went in there was always You're not supposed to do that

You're not supposed to paint on a Mike Tyson card. You're not supposed to paint over this graffiti. You're not supposed to... There's rules that you're not following. And I'm like, it was this my whole life. So...

I remember Channing Tatum was also attracted to that, and he showed up with his agent, and he's like, he had just done, he was a pretty boy. He's one of the most handsome guys, but he's so talented. And I'm like, I don't fucking want to meet Channing Tatum. I don't care about Channing Tatum. And then he came.

to the warehouse and he's like don't think of me as just like the pretty boy dancing step up from the streets guy like I'm about to do G.I. Joe but like I'm like and I'd put out zines and like self-published books and I write the way I talk right now and he'd read that and I was like Channing Tatum read you know he goes you're a great writer and I'm like there it is again I'm like I write porn he's like no no no

You have a way of talking and writing that I need to be a part of that. Like whatever. I go, but I've never written a script. He goes, whatever you write, I'm going to produce it. And I go, holy shit, dude. This is amazing. And then like. I don't know, I'm time jumping, but at some point I got a little cocky and he put out 21 Jump Street, which Johnny Depp again, you know. And I said, there's Ice Cube talking to Korean Jesus during that movie.

do you guys still have that korean jesus it's like oh yeah we made that for the i go if you guys want to work with me i need that korean jesus so they sent me the korean jesus and i i put it in my warehouse and i pray i prayed to it every night i prayed to korean jesus and What else? I mean, because of all the canceling, it's like if I get canceled at Marvel, then DC wants to work with me. So it's like, once again, being rewarded for the bad behavior. So there's this editor at DC Comics.

Oh, cool. I can't draw Hulk and Wolverine, but Batman, Superman. And this guy, Axel Alonso, who worked at Vertigo, which was like the more adult, like Sandman and stuff like that. He contacts me and he's like, I've been reading your fucking fucked up articles and vice. He's like, you're a writer. I go, that's the thing that I have the most respect for is writing. Like I have a book in me. I've never, I haven't sat down, but it's like, it's in here.

I'm too scared to get it out, but he's like, yeah, your art's okay. I go, okay. And he goes, I want you to write a book about... It was like Koreatown gangsters. It was shit that I didn't know about. I was like, fuck it, I'll make it up. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to write it like this. And he's like, no, you're going to write it and someone else is going to draw it. I was like, oh, okay.

But he was like, and then I started writing it, and I start writing him emails. Like, it's done. And, you know, email bounced back. He quit and, like, moved to Marvel. And I'm like, oh. oh fuck it was almost about to happen again you know and then um and then uh my podcast starts getting bigger and bigger and i'm so i'm i'm in my full workaholism i i've

I'm aware that I'm an addict. I'm in my full addiction. I'm gambling with my life and life savings every single day while touring with my band, Mangchi, doing the news for Vice, doing art shows. Like legally around the world and doing illegal, like just, and people are like, are you on Coke? I'm like, I don't have chemical. I don't do, I get high off. Like I, and each thing is like, I have to do that. I, I'm not enough.

that's what I believe about that's what I did believe about myself and still sometimes it is I was everything the world had shown me is that besides from my mother is that you're not and that was also confusing because she sent me away and abandoned me so it was like you're telling me i'm the best but then you threw me out like trash so a lot of mixed messages and and and and the messaging that i heard growing up that i received was

You're not enough. Women don't date Asians. Your art looks like shit. You're not following the graffiti rules.

your art's a little too aggressive to be refined for it's just everything is just so everything had to be i need to be it's not it's not like i can kind of be in this field like i have to have the best podcast and in my mind that was howard stern so i was like however extreme he is i have to go like howard's the ringleader but i need to be the guy that's the you know and i i don't care what happens to me because i've had third degrees burns all over my foot like my brother's read my diary

I've been stabbed in my back. I don't care what you do to me because it'll never be what I can do to myself. I've hurt myself. So then I'm in Russia or the North Pole. interviewing it's my first time doing the serious news and i remember at the time shane and eddie and everyone advice we sat down and they're like dave your podcast is out of control it's like and they and like

They all know me. They're like, you can't say those things. I go, you can't say what the fuck I want. I'm like, this is Vice, baby. They're like, Dave. And it was like second season of Vice News on HBO. The first season was.

dennis rodman in north korea getting a lot of attention we start getting emmy nominations and the year that we did it i won the emmy for the news i'm like you know my ego's like oh the first time doing the news fucking nailed it and i'm like i'm god dude I can do serious news and I could do weird butthole talk on this show and I could do serious fucking delicate watercolors that could be in a museum and I could do the most craziest like you can't fucking put me in a box.

And if you try to, I'm like, I am better than you. I'm better than you as a human being. I'm better than you as an art. And it was like, my friends just like, because it's easier when you're an alcoholic or drug addict. You're like, bro, you're unhinged. You're out of control. But it was just. narcissism hating myself self-destructive behavior just and again the people would come up to come with me i'd bring them to because i controlled my addiction like i would

I knew that I had a problem and I know the nature of addiction is you can't stop. So I did something that I've never heard another addict do, which is I would hire people, close friends, being like, I'm an addict. I cannot be trusted. I'm a liar.

I'm a thief. And so when I'm in my gambling state, I don't hold my money. So as soon as I win the number I told you I'm win, I need you to punch me in the face. I need you to drag me away from the table because now I'm going to say anything to keep going. So I can never touch my own money. If you see me falling in love with a girl and going into my love addiction, I need you to come and punch me in my face. And like I gave permission for people to hurt me physically and to physically remove me.

It's like if I was an alcoholic, it would be I'm at a bar and after two drinks, if you see me take a third, boom, and drag me out of the bar. So in that way, very sadomasochistic, but successful. Like I never... Because I had someone, and they would only get paid if they got me to stop, right? But then I would pay these people to stop me and then try to figure out ways to, you know.

So at the height of my workaholism is the height of my addiction. Like I got every, I don't sleep. There's days. And then I had a. heart attack when i was 35 an angina attack i collapsed i went blind i collapsed and of course like a lot of stories as soon as i i didn't go to the hospital as soon as i woke up i was like what the fuck was that like i woke up 30 hours later another day

and i just went back to gambling but it was like you know i i could go into euphoric recall and just start telling like but i i don't want to like glamour because it's like i figured out how to how to be in the world If I have sex with lots of women and win lots of money and work really hard at all these jobs, then I will be validated and congratulated and held up high in this culture, even though if I'm dying inside.

I need to, I've spent so much time in shame. I need to go, I want to see what it feels like to be like a winner, you know? But then that's when I got there, I go. What do you do when you get to the... Heavy is the crown. It's lonely. I got to the top and I was like, kind of boring. Let's... The kid in the village with the match. Let's burn it down. We got here. It's like... And that was my childhood, literally. I would spend a lot of time building giant...

Legos with all the loot, like we had like all mismatched Legos that was like, you know, hand-me-downs and I would build a giant starship and my brother would come in, cool, and just smash it. I was like, I worked so long on that, but that was me doing... My brother is somewhere around about to destroy my career. Let me just do it myself. Let me self-sabotage myself. Self-sabotage. It was like mini suicides, you know? And so it's all...

I'm like, here, here I am. It's all, it's fine. I'm finally going to be, you know, validated as a human being, you know? And then I get, you know, I get a vice telling me, Hey, you get, you can't do your podcast and the news. I go, then go fuck yourself. And then we win the Emmy, but I'm not part of that anymore. And then I can't keep track because I keep... They're like, did you know this artist got caught on saying... I go, it's on my podcast. It was my podcast. You don't fucking...

It's not like I did it on purpose. You know, anyways, it just kept happening, and I'm at the sickest I've been mentally. And I'm trying to make sense of my situation while the world also has its own issues. And I just, like, I hit my bottom. I just went so off the deep end. And my friends were all like, you're going to die. Like, it's not like a normal OD with drugs, but you like literally had a heart attack from like not sleeping and gambling for like a week straight.

Like masturbating nonstop to pornography. Just like video games. Like I couldn't stop playing Angry Birds, which like everything's like so I can make a joke out of it. And they're like, that's your safety thing is to like make a joke out of it. And so I walk in to, you know, a meeting and Channing Tatum's dude is like, Channing ain't fucking working with you. And it was, it wasn't him. It was like.

hey i've spent all it was the agency is like we've spent all this time building up a heartthrob teen idol thing he's not going to be seen with a scumbag like you i go oh it's happening again shame i walk into 0.0 Bourdain's like, when I'm done, it's you. Here's a book deal with my publishing company. Your show is going to be on CNN. It's going to be exactly like mine, but with art.

Like you're going to travel around the art and it's like authentic to you because you already do that. I'm just like, holy shit, dude. This is, it paid off. All the bad behavior, like. I met my kindred spirit and, and I knew he wasn't happy. That's one of my, I can't watch, like it's been years since, since all that happened. And I still, I can't, I can't. Like, I felt like I met someone who finally understood me. So, I know it wasn't him, but...

You know, I don't remember the guy's name. I remember them and they could have told me over the phone. They're like, Dave, it was like getting caught at the principal's office. It's like, and I'm pumped. I'm like, my mom was right. Jane Jo was right. the the most interesting man on the planet like my friend tony is like handing you know handing me the baton like and i'm gonna do him like i'm gonna go for it like i wasn't married i didn't have kids i'm like i'm gonna fucking

Really, really, like, I took it so seriously. Went to Nat Geo, like, took all the meetings, and, you know, I remember sitting at a table just like this, and the whole... 0.0 production team is like we love tony like he goes but we are not working with you and i go you couldn't send an email like like what are you shaming and and all of this is fuel for me

Like, they don't know this. I'm like, the more you fucking do this to me, the more you're giving me my drug, which I'm chasing, which is anger and shame. It's a fucking powerful drug, right? And I go, okay, just another on the list that I got to prove wrong. Like, I will make you regret the same way Chip regrets fucking talking shit. Like, I will make you feel you come at me.

You better fucking kill me because I'm going to fucking destroy you now. Like, I am gonna make the most awesome show ever. And, you know, Tony called me in apology. He's like, dude, I don't... Like, they're their own company. Like, we work together, but they, you know, the optics aren't good. And I go, all right, you know. And I was like, missed it by that much. Like, so it.

and and and i had grown accustomed to it like this was it's not a new it's if i if i could just keep telling another like oh and then marvel rejected me then dc then The episode I did with Tony, I take him to Sizzler. I show him how I fucking did a fusion with a meatball and a taco. It was true to me, right? You know, I hammed it up a little bit for the camera. I rubbed my... wore my like shiny red Sizzler suit, but.

That was me. That was how my family... And it resonated. It was the most watched episode. I introduced him to Estevan Oriol and Mr. Cartoon. He loved all the lowrider cars. It was a fucking L.A. episode. And it was like my friends. And it was like... It was awesome. I felt so good. And I just started getting, like Sizzler asked me to be their spokesperson. Like, and the episode is me talking shit about how horrible their food is, but it has this, I'll do it guys. I'll do it. And so.

They're like, it's the most watched episode of that. And then we won an Emmy for that season. And I'm just like, and then that happens. And I'm like, holy shit. And then you go on Netflix or whatever it was on, and that episode's just missing. I mean, it's back now, but they took it off. And I was like, just keep striking. You know, and I'm like, what did I do?

You know, like me playing, like, what did I do? Did I do that? Like, I'm Urkel. I'm like, like, you're a fucking idiot, dude. You do dumb shit that you shouldn't do. You should shut the fuck up and just, and, um. When I meet the most powerful intellectually, like just these powerhouse humans, once again, it doesn't always have to be sexual abuse, but it usually is with men.

Right. I mean, women, I don't know that experience because I'm not a woman, but for a man to take your humanity like that, then I see because it's PTSD. It's right. Post-traumatic stress disorder. But then every now and then, like, I don't know what the exact. stats are you get pt i'm making this up pt gd post-traumatic growth disorder it's like that should have turned me into a drug addict homeless person but instead i took all that pain and i was like

K-Rage, I'll show you. I'll fucking show you. You should have never done that to me. You should have never. You should have never minimized me and put me down and disregarded me. And now I have to teach you a lesson. And I have to show you who you're fucking with. And it's such a horrible... It's such a painful way to live life. And I can't live with that pain, so I have to just keep doing more. It's never enough. I have to just keep showing you. that I'm enough. So then I'm just...

I'm living in like a very, I know I'm telling a very name droppy, like douchey LA story, but you know, I have Anthony Bourdain who's, I consider a friend and my hero and my idol. Like.

I was in a gang called Koreans Got Bad. That was two people, me and my friend Harry Kim. But we wrote it everywhere, KGB everywhere. And then I remember the episode came out and he wrote... kgb forever or something like that koreans i'm like my gang is harry kim and anthony bourdain like i just i was like it just it made me so happy that it's like

Tony Bourdain is repping my set, you know, like I'm a fucking gang, you know, it was like, it was two fucking dumbasses just writing, drawing dumb bucktooth whales, and I mean, I miss that guy so much. The people that were close to him, like you and Joe, it's the same response. Always. So then I'm, you know, I'm like lost. I'm... I'm getting closer and closer to hitting my version of a bottom. And I get a call from David Arquette, the actor. And I love all the Arquettes.

David, you know, this is LA shit, right? He just reaches out and he's like, hey, I'm watching TV right now with my, I think, fiance at the time. And we just saw your Anthony born. And he's like, that's the most fucking LA shit. He's like, I wrote. I was in a crew called KGB. Kid's gone bad. And I was like, no, Kareem's gone bad, you know. And he goes, it's crazy. Like, I used to do graffiti and tag. I used to write KGB.

And I grew up eating at Sizzler with my family. And he goes, and I'm turning, I forgot. He was like, I'm turning 45 or 50. I forgot how old he was. But it was like a big one, like 40. And I'm having it at like, you know, Sizzler's almost out of business. I think there's like three left in LA. And he's like, and it's at the Sizzler that I grew up and I would love for you to be here.

And all that stuff always, all like weird celebrity stuff always makes me nervous because I'm like, I don't know if they're going to be fake or, you know, and I'm a sensitive person.

if i'm meeting new people and they don't like me i'm like oh i'm a piece of you know i i'm sensitive i'm a sensitive artist um so i go to sizzler with my friend critter i was like hey can you come with me and we get to sizzler and it's packed and it's there's the buffet bar with the cheese toast and he's like dave dave i want i want you to meet some friends here come sit at this table and i sit down and it's sasha baron cohen like my hero and peewee herman and i'm like

holy fuck dude and you know both of them are just huge art fans so like they don't know my art but you know david arquette talking he's like this guy's an awesome artist and they're like oh cool we want to check it out and So, you know, Sacha Baron Cohen, like, collects a lot of Banksy and this and he's like, fuck, dude, I got to come to your studio. I got to, you know, so then I'm like, oh, cool. Like, once again, like this, oh, people like me. And if people like me, then.

Maybe I like myself, you know? And it's nice to be liked. It feels good to be validated and liked by people that you look up to, right? So especially Pee Wee Herman's my art god, like I said. Bob Ross, Mr. Rogers, dope. But for me, that's what I grew up on. That fucking character, the full commitment to that character, the voice, the king of cartoon, Penny, the stop motion animation.

I just, it spoke to me, you know, all the Gary Panter art. So I go, fuck, I don't know when I'm going to meet this guy again. I go, hey, I don't know, 20 years ago. 15 years ago you did a movie called blow and he's like oh yeah blow you know i go hey uh did you ever remember like getting a porn package on your step and he's like and like i'm trying to read his eyes he's like no i don't remember that

And I was like, ah, I guess someone, you know. But I did get his number that night. And then, you know, as I get, I hit, like, I wouldn't be here today without my friends just all.

who loved me came and they're like, Dave, you're not, like, it went too far this way. You know, you used to be this sweet, nice, humble guy and just, you just, you need a lot of help. So I... Like everything else, obviously it was the hardest thing I ever did in my life, but including plant medicine, therapy, rehabs, men's groups, 12-step meetings, whatever, if someone said it was going to help you.

I'm like, you're just breaking like generations of, all fucking Asians hit their kids, all, you know, everyone got sent away, you know, just like, I know, but I want it to stop. It's either I fucking kill myself or I need it to stop. And enough people caring about me made me care about myself enough. And I did, the podcast, the band, people, and they go, they'll be fine. Everyone's going to figure it out. And I got help.

You know, as soon as I was out of the first rehab, like 45 days, I was like, I'm going to do a podcast about this. And they're like, Matt out there. He's just like, hey. Why don't you live this life before you start telling it? And he's like, but I learned so many. And you go, yeah, but why don't you implement it in your life? And so I'm 49 now. I rarely do podcasts. I still do something creative every single day. I like to do it with other people.

I'd like to thank the sponsor today for this, God. I know people are like, oh, all you're religious. I go, I don't believe, you know. I don't believe in God, but I still pray to him. And like God, whatever you want to call it, like whatever that is, whatever that thing that controls telepathy and Santa and connection and all this, he doesn't care if I believe in him. He's still there.

Right? It's like such an ego thing. Who cares what you... The thing. It's like saying you don't believe in the ocean. The ocean is still there. So I want to thank that guy. And so as I live this life and then I start... to be like what is my purpose why am I here what is you know before your art was about like disgustingness and offending people and it was just a fuck you just showing people

Hey, Asian people aren't all quiet. Like, you're a rebel. Like, you're supposed to shut the fuck up and become a lawyer or a doctor. And then just like, I always tell people, they go, how do I make it? I want to be, I go. I'm an expert in disappointing my parents. You must disappoint your parents. Like my dad is so disappointed in me over and over again until he's not. But I'm like, what would have happened if I didn't disappoint him?

I would have got a pretty high SAT. I would have, you know, probably been on my second marriage, lawyer, golf, like, and he would be like, ah, I don't know. I don't know. But I... I know that he's proud of me now. And it was like a long, hard path to get there. And so I go, I, and part of me, you know, if you can't tell by now, it goes like this, the pendulum swings very hard. So I said to myself,

I'm going to, like everything up until now has been about, look at me, let me show you. And it's like, and I go, I got to take some space for me now. And, you know, I work with all these. youth groups and stuff and people go hey you know you did a lot of media and you did a lot of shit where you put yourself out there showing the worst part of yourself and like trying to prove to people that you're not a good person it's like you know it would

It would like touch people and help people to see like your journey and your path. And I go, fuck that. I'm not going to put myself through that. Like I'm taking space. And they're like, yeah, but like at some point, are you going to share your story? And I go, no, that's too literal.

I hate words. Words can be confused. Words can be misconstrued. I'm not doing that. I'm just doing this and this is enough. Your ego goes, oh, I'm working with 12 kids today. But if it was filmed... it could reach millions of people and it's like no you're working with 12 kids today and that's it and that's enough right um but then at some point after you this is years a decade of recovery um i thought well

part of the reason why i hate working with not and like netflix hulu hb it doesn't matter like they're all corporations they could be cool or whatever but and even podcasts, which was, that's the conversation we had. I'm like, it all gets edited. It's like as soon as anything gets a little, and so I go, I'll just make my own show.

because I have money to do that, and it's not going to cost that much. And then if someone wants to buy it, they will or they won't. So I started making my version of Pee-wee's Playhouse, which was the Cho Show, and it came out on FX. on hulu and and i got to learn what taking notes and having you know corporate feedback and whatever i'm grateful that it happened but they killed a lot of the episodes and um

And everyone's like, who's your dream guest? And I was like, it doesn't matter. I'll talk to anybody. I'll talk to the garbage man. But they're like, it's for TV, so you should try to get some celebrities or well-known people. And I was like, I want Pee Wee Herman. and uh i had his number still from sizzler so i called him and i you know and peewee herman's like i don't know if

And he's just one of those people that once he gets your contact info, you get a birthday message from him every year or a Christmas card. And I was like, it just, every time I got it, I would send, show all my friends. I'm like, it just made me feel so good. So, yeah, I have those emails that Sean Parker said about like what he wanted from my art to disrupt the world. I have the nice message from Howard Stern.

i have the the voice so i i called peewee and he's like dave i got some stuff some health stuff going on and and uh and he's like i feel honored thank you like you know i i love your art you know now he got to learn a little bit about me and he's like and i would love to be on your show but i just i don't know i don't want to be on camera anymore and and he's like you could send the episodes and i'll i i'll give you some like

if you open to it i was like of course you know and uh and it was just it just like i couldn't i couldn't believe that i was talking to him and he like was talking back to me as a equal And then, I mean, but I got it right away. He's not going to do it, you know. And then at the end, right before I hung up, he goes, you paint butts really good. He got it. You got it. And I, you know, he's like, I'm old. I don't want to talk on the microphone.

So I don't know if that answered your question about the South Bay. I know that was a long answer for the one question you asked me, but I don't know. Like when people like.

I feel like you're an open person. So if you ask me something, I'm like, and you're ready to go into my head space and, and we can go there together. Then I feel like cared for, listened to. And like, I'm like. Cause you know, you listen and they're not present. They're looking at their phone. They're like, okay, this show is two hours. And I'm like, I got law, you know, and that's also how I write very long run on sentences. No punctuation.

So there's no like creativity is such a hard thing to have a conversation about because it's not like my path is not someone else's path. And today it's just every day I wake up with what I didn't have before, which is gratitude. I just wake up and it's like, I had a horrible day today. Like, it was not good. Like, the fucking...

Like flat tire, appointment canceled, moved back, fucking crazy family shit happening with my dad. And I was just like, I wasn't going to cancel, but the feeling was like, it's not the right headspace to go. And then I said, you know what? Every, like, I could sit there and like self-analyze, oh, you have depression, you have this, and it's like almost.

some weird OCD, like, and you're a horrible person, and you have antisocial traits, and they go, okay, and then what are you going to do about it, you know? And so I sit back now, and if I examine my life... like a scientist i go hey uh what was what was what was all that shit about on your why did you say that stuff on your podcast why why did you like

do that thing that's against your value system why did you what was about the fucking like all the suicidal ideation all the times you try to like what was that about you know and not just Like I said like logically I know if I sound hypocritical not just trying to like analyze it like but just an examination of My my own heart like doing an x-ray of my heart. It's like what what were you feeling then and what?

and why like what is the shame hitting and why did you do that and like so I sit there and I go we live in a society I'll use I statements I live in the way the culture I was grown was When someone asks you how you're doing, it's just good. Okay. Which aren't emotions. That's all you say. You don't go, oh, let me tell you, like, I'm feeling shame today. And, you know, so we live, I live in, I live.

I was raised in a culture of everything's fine. Everything's okay. Get along to go along. You know, I was a lot of like Asian, the only Asian family in like a white neighborhood or black neighborhoods was like, don't. It's a lot of.

immigrant story right like don't rock the boat don't do anything to stand out we're guests in this country we're lucky to be here don't do basically everything i did you know like you know keep clear up the campground leave it nice And so I sit here and if I'm being introspective, this is all, this stuff is like, this is why I say this would be intimate because it's just private stuff that I don't, like I'm trying to just.

You know, know my own heart. So it's like, what? Why? What is the insane opening Pokémon packs about? like right you could turn that into a joke or like what is what is the unmet need like what is your depression telling you right now what is your anger if your anger is like unmatched with like oh there was like a little

Flare up at school as some kid said something to your kid and then like your response is like yeah, like what's that about so instead of Shaming myself and going I'm a piece of shit. Oh, I did all this work and I and I'm still this much. It's just And I think if I can get quiet and right-sized in that moment instead of, oh, I need to like make a story in my head to be like and just sit in that ugliness and uncomfortable like.

If I can do that, I couldn't do that before. I can't, like you have to either look at me like I'm nothing or I'm the greatest. I can't just, oh, Dave's kind of boring today or he's kind of not making sense or he feels like I couldn't. It had to be all or nothing. It was very black and white, very Christian the way I was raised, OCD, like God's way or Satan's way. And so now I just go, that's Palo Alto.

If I could find the Palo Alto in my heart, just like the mundane, culturally, like if I could sit in the boring, mundane space and I dare to be mediocre, dare to be moderate and just... Like I said, the feeling is like, oh, what's the sensations? Then that's where the brilliance is. Then I could find my inner spark. I could find... And then in that...

is when I feel the closest to you and other, like, if I'm with another person who's closed, this is like, just like banging my head against the wall. But if I can meet another spirit or soul and... you're it doesn't have i don't have to agree with you but it's like you're i don't like i've been talking my ass off i understand that like we could we could go all night right and if you share with me your heart then it's a shared brokenness

You don't get to where Andrew Huberman doesn't get to this with a smooth... Like, shit went down. I don't know, but it's on your face. And it's like a vibrational thing, right? Like, you don't... You don't fucking tattoo your whole body if everything was cool, right? You don't just become as smart as you are without, like, if you want to destroy me intellectually, you can. Like, I wouldn't, I would be like, like, right?

So if I can sit in and be vulnerable and say, like, hey, I'm not perfect, but I'm not a piece of shit. I'm enough. Like, I don't need to do anything today. And that's, for me, that was like these cultural moments of... watching outcast be inducted into the hall of fame and andre 3000 going i'm not gonna rap but everyone wants you to that's not where i'm at right now i'm just gonna i was like fucking amazing you know or uh

Tarantino's saying Paul Dano. It's like the worst part of There Will Be Blood. I was like, wow, that's the best thing that ever happened. You saw like everyone come out to say how brilliant he is. I mean, what if Tarantino just said Paul Dano's amazing? Then that would just... So I just find these, like what is, without trying to like psychoanalyze or overanalyze every moment of my life, just go, this is the space, right? Because I've done.

the brain mapping and they're like the way it was explained to me they dumbed it down they're like you're not a psychopath because you do psych you do psychopathic things but you actually care about people you're not a psychopath and they say the the space in your brain there's like a bridge like here's reality you know he's like it's like should i jump off this cliff and like most people will executive function like okay maybe i'm gonna get hurt and like

that that bridge is smaller for people like you they saw like a little they go so you don't really think you just do and then that's how you you're like how did i end up in jail how did i fucking like and and and that makes for a great story that makes for a great fucking life or like a storybook crazy life that makes for and and that's a a story that's just told oh like you need to be a fucking psychotic insane

crazy person to be the greatest artist right if you're just like a you know boring person living at home with like air conditioning and wi-fi and your warm cup of earl grey and You could do good art. You could even do great art, but you won't ever be the best because you're not facing your shadow. You're not looking at yourself. That's just technique. That's just craft. That's just skill. I'm ripping my fucking heart out and showing it to you. I'm like, what do you think?

I'm not saying what do you think. I'm like, fucking what do you think? No, I feel it. I mean, I feel it. Okay. You know, I mean, I...

Sorry, there's like spit all over the table. Please don't apologize. Don't apologize. I'm slobbering. I'm slobbering right into your microphone. No apology. You guys almost got me there. No apology. I feel it. I mean, I feel it. And everybody feels it. And if they don't, they should take a look inside.

It's going to sound like I'm name dropping now. Go ahead. Go for it. I feel very blessed to have Rick Rubin as my close friend. Not because he's Rick Rubin who produced all this music. That's super cool too. But because he has antennae. And he can feel shit. Yeah. And he can feel it, but he doesn't get absorbed in it. It's very interesting. I don't have that. Yeah. I feel stuff and it, it like the, the, it just. Yeah. And.

I am certain people feel your heart in what you do. The self-sacrifice part is hard to hear about. I can relate. Well, I... I talked to Rob a little bit because he's like a PR dude before. Was a PR. He's like a producer. I mean, he's out of it. That smile hides a lot of pain right there. Look at that smile. But yeah, I...

Yeah, it's hard. You know, they say all these dumb quotes, like, no is a complete sentence. And it is, right? I go no, and then I have to make up some fake, like, oh, but I got, you know, my car. Did get a flat tire, but that used to be a thing I would make up. And then people would be like, let me see the metadata on your phone and make sure that's not a screenshot from like two years. So I would lie and make up excuses.

the the ability to it goes against how i was raised it goes against my culture to just say no to my parents no to jobs, like leaving money on the table so that I could put myself first for the first time and nurture my own heart and take care of myself. It just sounded like that's...

I'd already written my story. I'm like, you know, and then when you have heroes like Bourdain, like I think a lot of people also killed themselves after Bourdain did that because they're like, if the most interesting man on the planet, the guy that's... a role model a guy i look up to like he's not he can't fucking figure it out then fuck what's there and and then almost validates it like it's so you can do it too like anyone like uh

So I, it was just, it just, I had it written out like everyone I look to, look up to. And it's so fucking boring and cliche when I think about it. It makes me so angry. It's like. You know, live fast, die young, and then just have people say nice shit about you. Or just be a little bit more boring and have wonderful relationships. You call me and you go, you're probably busy. I'm like, I'm not that busy, dude. I'm not a busy person.

I make a lot of space for myself now. I don't, like, and I deserve it. Like, I owe that to myself. I was about to say you've earned it, but you never needed to earn it. You know, I'm glad to hear it because. Will you commit to taking a year off? I could use some time off. All right. So that sounds like I'll start the negotiations at a year. And then if I can get you anywhere close to that.

because people will be like oh you know like the american vacation is like a week or two weeks right that's nothing that's like barely enough time to Yeah, I have all these war stories. I don't want to make this about me, but I have all these war stories like, you know, my girlfriend at the time, she'll validate these as, you know, being, you know, diarrhea and vomiting while writing a grant back when. I mean.

If I I've had so many wonderful opportunities, but I've been going pretty hard into the paint since I was 19. Like that means nonstop. That means like. 50 to 100 hour weeks since then. Like what's the longest vacation you've ever taken in your life? Four days. I mean, this isn't me deflecting. It's just like, I just met you and like, I'm so happy that like. I was like, if he gives me the space to speak, which you did, and you can feel what I was trying to say.

to me like that's all i want is connection right like that's i want to be seen now before i was hiding and wearing masks but in that i felt you and i go i i didn't know what you were going to say but i was like it's going to be less than a week because You don't get, because I know, you don't get to where, nobody does. Everyone pays the price. You don't get to where you are right now by taking time off. You just don't. But like you just said to me, I'll say it back to you.

You deserve it. And to speak to the workaholic part of you, and I say this to people that are like you and me. you will have more ideas, more inspiration. You can't think now because you're thinking about how's Rob going to get paid? Because you take care of a lot of people, right? But in that time, I could come. I could get rid of all this black. I could add some color here.

I could get you some white t-shirts. You could spend time with your family. Just the shit that you're running from, you know? And I feel like, okay, a year is unrealistic. You're like, I'm running out, you know, but it's, it will. Like people, oh, go do plant medicine. I was like, just taking a year off and first weeks or months will just be you unlearning the workaholism of just, I got to do something to have value and to just...

And I feel like it will, when you come back, you'll be like a thousand. And sometimes in our culture, we get knocked down not by our choice. But I'm like, this would be by your choice. I'm taking care of Andy today. Love you, Rob. Love all you guys out there. But, you know.

You know what? I'll run your podcast while you're gone. That would be sick. I'll do all the science. You could feed me some big words to use. And I'll go paint. Oh, my God. I'm going to – yeah, I feel more comfortable with you now. It's like –

Like I think I would lie to you like whatever whatever you showed me. I'd be like, oh, that's cool But like I think it's cool that anyone who's a egghead who spends time up here. I think every thinker needs to spend time playing music or painting because it's just it's the opposite of that right you're using the other side of your brain but it sounds like the way you're painting is very in your head and i would just rip you out of that and i

it would be very uncomfortable but then you could see the kind of like life right you just see throw shit at the wall and see what sticks and and and through that it's about control right And I had to, you know, and part of being in 12-step in recovery is like, and, you know, and the wisdom to know the difference, you know, the serenity prayer.

is I had to, like, you can't control Mother Nature. You can't control a fire. You can't control what other people are going to think about you or say about you. You just can't. You could try to, let me write a paper and, like, so that... and and and yeah you could do that for a little bit but it's tiring and it's exhausting to try to get all these people to believe what you know like and and and so i

Yeah, I just, it's anti, it goes against the word winning and the win's surrender, right? Like I win every day because I surrender constantly now.

and part of that i gotta still fight because it's like you sound like a loser why are you giving up right it's going to shut the up pick yourself up by your you know bootstraps and get back in you know like that's how you become the best like all the other artists they're like dealing with like you don't have kids you don't get married you fucking paint you go to the art store you buy all the paint up you fucking keep painting you steal all the paints like just keep painting never stop

And it's all going to be worth it because one day you're going to die and then legacy. But now we see legacy is nothing, right? I get in an Uber, get in the car, fucking smells like teen spirit.

Right? One of the greatest anthems ever. Guy in the car, 27 years old. What's this? Well, I'll tell you. You don't know fucking Nirvana? Okay, have you seen Goodfellas? Like, whatever. Whatever who's... the godfather like go down the list the greatest nobody cares right the great over the greatest so it's just this it's just this this is all you have so you've done enough people love you

You've helped so many people. And I want you to take one year off. And I don't care if people are like, fuck that guy. That guy helps me every day. I want to hear his soothing voice every night. But I'm like, AI, bro. Just use AI. No, I'm kidding. I'm just saying. I would love whatever you've been running from, whatever you've been doing to, like, you help a lot of people, but do you help yourself on that level? And it's like, yeah, starting painting, that's taking care of you.

It's not complete all or nothing, but someone like you and other people like you are not going to outsmart the feeling, right? You're not going to outrun the pain. And it's like, like. I don't know what your father was like. I don't know what your mom was like, but they're proud of you. Like you don't need to do more. Like they're proud of you. And like if you go to what I said, the only way to really make them proud is to disappoint them.

You just got to fucking, Andrew, I'm really disappointed in you. Then you know you're doing something right, you know? Sorry for talking over you. No, I was interrupting.

Your face says a lot, so I just want to know what you're – try to – Well, the part about legacy is where I was interrupting, but let's let it pass because – yes and yes the legacy thing it it it's nothing it's nothing um like i've done i feel like i've done so much in acting like i've done all these things and people are like

Who's that Chinese kid? I'm like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Like you do all this stuff so that you have something to leave behind. And I go, you just have this. You just have like right now, today.

and that's it and like we're gonna we did this today and then and then it's off to the universe i i can't control what people are gonna think about me and it's like i came here today with my intention of meeting you telling you how you make me feel and how like how much i appreciate you and i did that so that's it and that like i have no ill will i'm not trying to like

Yeah, I probably talk shit about a lot of people right now, but it's like, fine, okay, that's my... And I should probably just let all that stuff go, but... To tell someone who's used to winning, who's fought tooth and nail for everything they had to fight and prove people wrong over and over again, to tell someone like that, hey, just surrender. It's like, fuck you, dude. You don't tell me that.

um so yeah that journey from head to heart is it's a big one and that's why the like you can't say that to everyone right because they're like i gotta fucking but i'm like i i don't know your financial situation but i'm like i think you could take a year off like um It's not for, but that's the other thing, right? Like, it must be nice, Dave, from your perspective. And I go, I was homeless. Like, I've lived the worst. Like, people for, like, I know I sound defensive, but like, I've.

I wasn't born rich. Like, I worked for this. So it's like, must sound nice from a rich guy's perspective. And I go, if I think back to my happiest moments or even just my most creative moments, it was always less. It was never more, right? So when I lived in a tiny house, that means less doors to open, less walls to, we're living together in a, you know, and it's fucking cold, but at least we got body, you know, I'm making it sound like, you know, like we're.

We were okay, but I'm like, we didn't have that much. And it was great because we had each other. And I think back and I go, okay, creative output. Let's go to work. Let's go back into my head. I go, oh, every time I had like a... renaissance level creative explosion there was no wi-fi and there was no heater it was always freezing it was cold like you're talking about deprivation yeah like and then now like it's just

It would be with my attention, it would be impossible for me to get anything done if I didn't go out of my way to block all my electronic devices. I couldn't do it. My social media is on a separate phone. It goes into a lockbox that can't be coded out to get work done. I mean, what I hear, well, first of all, I want to be clear that... I don't need an answer from you. I'm just throwing the...

The challenge of the gauntlet down. All right. I would love for you to take one year off as someone who I just met, who I care about, and I, like, we're humans, right? Can't just run forever. Like, there needs to be a recharge, a refresh. Like, there's just things that you get offered, I guess. You're like, I'm never going to do that. Why don't you go to this retreat and just work on this part of your heart or this part of your...

uh journey for a month you're like i'm not gonna fucking do that and it's like but why not you deserve it and it's gonna be hard it's not like a fun vacation and like for me the way i think about it is part of part of like what because I take podcasting so like I'm it does I try to manicure

how I look and sound and I do a lot of people and I try to make it look like I didn't right like before I go on Joe Rogan or Howard Stern I like I call up people and I fucking do like I talk for 12 I go is this work is like And then I come on and I try, and that's fake. And it's been years since I did a podcast. I was like, I'm getting like a very genuine feeling from you. And so I don't want to do that today. And I was fucking, that's why I was puking. I was scared. I was like.

I'm just going to come in and I might say something that like fucks me up because it has so many times, but I'm just going to be the truest version of, I guess I could, that was scary to me. That was like really being naked. Like I. I like to be prepared. Like last night, it was late. I couldn't sleep. And I was like, oh, fuck, I can't believe. Because it's like I live a quiet, like I don't. And I was like, oh, man.

it was like let me like like not like you're the enemy i was like oh i'm going into enemy territory what if he has like a gotcha question like i have to have a uh you know like it was It was like I was at Vice again. You know, Vice was so much riffing and witty comebacks. And I was like, this is exhausting. And I was like, but can you just go and just, you know, and I realized it took me like two hours to answer like one question, but.

I also accept that about myself, you know? But yeah, I started like, I started, Andrew, and then it was like, it finishes your name, and I was like, I'm not going to do this. I don't want to do this. I don't want to just fucking read about you all night and then, like, have come in, like, prepared. Great. Great. I'm so glad you abandoned that. I did. I did. I said, just fucking told me. Dude. Yeah.

I'm so grateful you showed up here in that frame, that no frame frame. Yeah. I know as soon as I start talking, if I say anything kind about you, you're going to... get that thing but i'm just gonna tell you it i'll tell you um there are a couple reasons you're here some of them i touched on earlier you're amazing artist you're amazing person but the main reason you're here

is because a long time ago, I saw you at a meeting, and I learned from you there. And I was like, you know, I would like to be his friend. Oh, wow. And I know I can learn a lot from him. Oh, my God. So without getting into any details about that. I mean, you can. I don't care. Well, maybe another time. I told you. You know, you've helped me a ton. I also.

I have this model in my head, maybe this is the scientist in me, but I feel like you've made yourself like the anvil, the hammer, and the metal. And it's like this cycle of... the opportunity to do something, to feel something. And then, you know, I guess my friend Ryan Suave was right. He said, you know, people get addicted to shame. But to me, it's the whole cycle, right? But the thing that I...

I really want you to take in is that people learn from what comes out of your mouth. They don't like, yes, the stories are interesting, infinitely interesting and entertaining also. And yes, you have a gift. for storytelling, just like you have a gift for art. But it's, you know, people learn. And, you know, we touched on Bourdain, who I didn't know. I know you and Joe were both close to him. I know a couple other people were close to him.

And, you know, I'm not here on a public service campaign. That's not how I do this podcast. I'm only here with you right now. But, you know, there are a lot of people offing themselves. A close friend do that recently. A very famous... scientists that appeared to have everything, this kind of thing. And it's happening more and more. And I think that when people hear you, when I hear you, I know what people hear. They feel you and they hear.

The extent to which, yeah, there are a lot of hard stuff and great stuff happen, but you're still here and you're still going. And that example is really, really important. Well, I don't want to, I don't want to be a... survive you know it's like i'm a survivor because i survived all this stuff but so did everybody and i'm not trying to like and you but you're still going but i don't want to survive i want to thrive right you're a thriver that's why i think of like uh

Korean Jesus or Pee Wee Herman and I go, it was like, I try to keep things light and entertaining. It was a lot. It was really painful, right? If, if, if you get it, it wasn't easy and it wasn't easy for everyone, but. so then you go well will you work on yourself will you do this work will you go to a meeting and it's like are we having fun yet right it's like it's a lot of fucking pain and work to

Just be, you know? And the question is like, I want to put, is like, are we having fun yet? Like, isn't, aren't we supposed to have fun? Like, you know, my son wakes up every morning laughing. I go, what the fuck is happening up there? what is like I can't remember the last time I woke up smiling it's like and I'm like oh if we can remember like I like it was dumb doing the secret word but I

I loved it. Like, you guys scared the shit. Like, I... You know, and it's people... You know, trigger warning. Like, there's a lot of people killing themselves. Like, on an epidemic. Men. Like, I don't know that many women, but a lot of men. Mostly men. And so a powerful tool, because I've done so much reckless shit. I'm...

a miracle that I'm here right now. And I'm not saying that to be like, oh, I just... No, I think it is a miracle. I could have been dead a lot of times. No, I think God's been looking out for you for sure. So I say to myself without aggrandizing myself or being on like some guru, messiah type shit, it's like, so...

I made it through that. I am having fun despite how much I cry and stuff. But even that, like I wouldn't – I would be called a pussy and all that if I did that. And I go, I just – allowing myself to feel everything and and and so i i learned this tool called just play the tape out right so you go

If you're an idiot, you're an idiot. But if you have any level of intelligence, you go, well, how do you think this ends for you? How do you think this drug problem ends for you? How do you think cheating on your wife ends for you? How do you think nonstop? Like, it doesn't end well. Right. That's one of my favorite things to tell my friend. That's okay right now. It's mad. I go, but addiction and, and it just, it just escalates. It doesn't stay. You don't just kind of get like.

And in someone like me, it escalates very quickly. So it's dangerous. And addiction loves novelty, right? So if someone's sucking dick for crack in an alley right now... That little boy, he wasn't a little boy when they go, I hope I do that one day. That happened. It started with weed, then it went to coke, and it just escalated, right? He wasn't like, I want to...

Do degrading acts that I don't want to do for drugs, but it escalated and that's on the addict side, but I just found myself having a lot of I swear like weird broken promise. I swear I'll never do that. But then I'm like, here I am in this weird place doing weird shit that it's going against my value system. Here I am. Oh, I'm chasing the shame again. So I know this is kind of.

hypocritical because i'm i'm applying logic again but if you just talk to someone and you use this tool of hey you're not an idiot play the tape out your your behavior that's like chasing a bottom or destructive or not that destructive yet, but it's on the path and you're like, yeah, it'll be all right. It's like, just play it out. Like, how do you think this ends for you? Right? I go, I need to go back to podcasting.

Right? And then I go on these podcasts and I go, are we having fun yet? Is it like you seem like you got the weight of the world on your shoulders. You seem miserable. You seem like you can find, like, I'm not. It's just, like, in general, I don't find podcasters, like, happy people. It's just, like, I go, so, like, when, like, you know, cut.

Let's go. And it's like, oh, shit, sponsors. It's like, I got to fucking, the numbers are going down. And I'm like, can we have fun? Like, is it only about making money and just, it's enough. And it's because we live in a society, especially if you live in a city, where the messaging from billboards to social, everything is telling you from the second you wake up. It's not hundreds, it's thousands.

of messages telling you you're not enough right and so i do the brain mapping i do it and it's like wow dave you're really hard on yourself you say so much it's it's it's it's like if someone said that to my friend i would I would do something. So it's like a lot of punishing self-talk. And then it feels gay to say, I'm enough. You know, it's like that again. Why do you have to say it like that?

Oh, I'm worthy. I am a good person. I am a good father. I am a good friend. I am a good brother. You know, it's like, this sounds like just self-help. But I was able to brainwash myself into believing I was the best artist in the world. So why can't I brainwash myself into thinking I'm a good person? So then I go, when I meet people, I want to say nice stuff, like real stuff, not like that's how I feel. It's like, that's weird. I don't want to just tell someone his shirt fits good on him.

it does i mean even for black it does um so so the tools is like you know writing with deodorant like a thick white chunky deodorant just so i see it so it's in my psyche because it's every day it's billboards of good looking people and I don't look like that and so the messaging is all fucked up and unless I'm just gonna say fuck all internet and just move to the African wilderness which I might do.

Yeah, just right on the wall. I am worthy. I'm enough. And I see it every morning when I wash my face. And it's just like I'm starting to brainwash myself. It's like that's one tool is like telling people I love and I care about how I feel about them, not.

till they're dead not till it's like they're in their bottom and i'm like hey and it's like i tell them every day because that's that's that's all we have and then i say that about myself and then i can catch myself like that bridge that was like Basically like a suicide bridge, just like reckless behavior, reckless, irresponsible behavior, immature behavior. But all of this shit is hard because I'm coming at it with generations of a story that says, you need to stay sick.

Like when you hear Kanye say, bipolar is my superpower. Like there's a part of me that's like, of course. And I like my artists fucked up. The more fucked up you are, that's true genius. That's, you know, and I go. You know, I have friends close to me that go, as someone who's as creative as you is so, you're so like boring and small thinking when you just buy into those things. It's like, like.

is there anyone who lives a moderate life just a regular does everything doesn't have to be jumping on a train and like that is doing great art and i go show me an example there's and i go but couldn't you be the first well there's ego and narcissism and it's just like just

And then, okay, fine. Let's just go, let's go with, let's play that tape out. Let's just say for you to make the choice to be a normal person, you're never going to have the best podcast or the best art. You're just going to be kind of like right there, 70%. what's wrong with that you know but that's not that's going against everything right so i have to it's hard you know and especially something with art where it's in

There's just people that are like, you're literally doing the worst art I've ever seen in my life. It's like, oh, their first album was good type shit. And there's part of me that's like, yeah, the earlier stuff had more angst and way more detail and more labored over. And the stuff now is way more looser. But I love it now. Like, I like myself how I feel.

It's very rare that you have the whole lonely at the top, that you have these champions, people that are like the best at what they do, the top 1% of... the world champion of this, this, that you meet them and they're just like a content, satisfied, happy, they're just miserable. And you're like, what was the point? Why? And it's either.

You have the courage through yourself and friends to make that change. If you take a year off, we're going to hang out a lot. We're going to paint. That's an awesome incentive. We're going to do all that. It's always like, you got to do it alone. That was my message. Like, shut the fuck up. Don't complain. Like, very Asian, very Korean. Like, don't say anything. Like, someone fucking treats you like shit. Just keep your head down and just...

It's all revenge is a dish best served cold. You know, just fucking shut. Don't ever let them know. See you coming. See how you feel. And just your revenge is success. Like just.

like that guy treated you shit at work then just become the guy that owns that business and then fire him you know like um oh i'm so fucking glad that guy chip got fired that felt so good chip sounds like an asshole he was such an asshole but i so you just i i have in those things all these tools are like okay cool they're all simple

Okay, wake up every day and say I'm a good person. Yeah, it's simple, but it's hard. It's not easy. You have to like work at it. And feel it. Yeah, like, oh, get up every day and do 100 push-ups. I could do that, but I don't. But you could. It's like, but you care about.

your physical health, but why wouldn't you do that for your mental health, your spiritual health? You know, oh, I'm not religious. It's like spirituality is, it's the ocean, it's the universe. It's a power greater than you, right? So... um so i yeah that that playing the tape out is a very valuable powerful like i i need to take action in this way and and sometimes the action is to do less and it's to do nothing where everything growing up was do more and

I was going to say, am I making any sense? But through your face, I could see that. I feel heard and I feel understood in this moment, which is very special to me. So thank you. Thank you. You are absolutely heard.

Absolutely understood. And I'm very grateful to you. And I know everyone listening is to the permission to tell oneself and feel that they are enough is.

That's oddly the hardest thing, but the encouragement is heard. It lands. I think also because I talk so much about shame, and I'll end it with this. It feels like a... is uh hope and faith is also a very powerful drug and sometimes like like i said with my mom or me believing in santa like there's no logic in that but um you know Entire wars and nations are fought over faith and, you know, and I feel like because I'm sensitive and I'm empathetic to everybody that I meet.

that it feels like a really hopeless time. And I feel like that's why there's a lot of self-harm and depression. And so it's like weird. It's like, how would you be hopeful in a city like LA where there's like...

70,000 homeless people, like natural disasters, drug epidemics, you know, just all this shit. And it's like, then to... to you know to to to brainwash yourself like if because it's that that's what the connection is like if i don't believe it to find to go out there and meet someone in real life and say hey i'm having it was like the hardest thing to do it's like i need help right now

I can't, it's like weird to admit to someone that I can't do like, I can't, I can't even come up with one nice thing to say about myself. Can you say something nice about me?

well that sounds very egotistic but i i need that right now i really don't like myself right now and to have someone say something nice and you go okay maybe tomorrow i'll be able to say something nice about myself and then you're building something called hope and faith and so i don't know um i told a long peewee herman story but at the end of that i was like what was that it's like okay that's

resilience that's taking chance that's believing in yourself but i never gave up hope you know it's like and it's just and that's delusional in a way but

That's Like how like if you take facts and numbers and it's like this is the end of the world This is like me eyes gonna kill like all this fucking doomsday post-apocalyptic. It's like i don't need that shit dude i don't watch horror movies i don't surround myself with like that's fine like that's everyone do your own thing and like i said you know we were both like we like punk but we don't like hardcore like i used to love hardcore because it's i needed that

I needed to hear that message vibrationally and spiritually and sonically to go like, oh, that guy's singing at a frequency that's resonating with me. It doesn't now. And I fucking hated reggae my whole life because those people were happy. And now... I listen to reggae. You know, I go reggae on the river or whatever. You know, like, and I'm just like, you know, and I immediately judge. I can't believe you're fucking listening to reggae. This is.

like stoner music but it's the frequency is hitting me now so i can be appreciative of hardcore music but um yeah i If I look back and I go, what was that? What the fuck was that? It was just screaming for help, lost and hopeless. And I just go, hope is a hard thing to... have in a time like this but not if you ask for help not if you reach out not if you connect with other people and that is gonna be impossible to do if you don't you need to

now i sound like i'm gonna know it all but it's like you need to deprive yourself of electronics like it has to happen like you can't have real emotion if you're watching tv or your phone like It's the only way. It's like a secret language. Anytime I'm out and someone has a clamshell phone or a flip phone, a dumb phone, whatever, a brick phone, whatever you call it, I give a wink. Because I know I'm like this guy.

He cares about himself. Because you can't... No, you don't. You don't need to know who's being murdered on every country. What are you going to do about it? Nothing. So... I believe, I have faith that we're all here for a reason. And to anyone listening, and I don't know when this is coming out, and I didn't know.

Honestly, didn't know I was going to publicly come out about my belief in Santa Claus, but it is the season. Is this going to come out soon or after Christmas? Okay. Just try it on. I know it's stupid, but just believe in Santa.

i know kids already do but any grown-ups bitter jaded adults listening just just try it on this this year just and if you need you know he can teleport he's a mutant he has special abilities and he knows if you've been naughty or nice so yeah i don't i don't know we could i could like this is the problem because where we're at now is when i would start like this was like the pre

Like when I used to do my podcast, DVD, I'd just be like, oh, it wasn't a podcast because it wasn't a conversation. It was you talking the whole time and we're three hours in and be like, okay, now let's start. Let's get ugly and real. I feel like nobody likes to talk for nine hours, dude. I'm like, I do. So I feel like you'd be down if we wanted to go six more hours. Easy. And we could maybe do that one day. We should.

But I feel like, I don't know. Am I, am I, you know what? I'm surrendering. I feel like, unless you have more shit to ask me, then I'm down. Oh man, I've, in the. language of meetings and other things, I think for now, we're complete. Thank you so much, man. Thank you. Thank you. That was so, I mean, I feel good.

I feel good too. Very grateful. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho. To learn more about him and his work, please see the links in the show note captions.

If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero-cost way to support us. In addition, please follow the podcast by clicking the follow button on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, you can leave us up to a five-star. review and you can now leave us comments.

at both Spotify and Apple. Please also check out the sponsors mentioned at the beginning and throughout today's episode. That's the best way to support this podcast. If you have questions for me or comments about the podcast or guests or topics that you'd like me to consider for the Huberman Lab podcast. please put those in the comment section on YouTube. I do read all the comments.

For those of you that haven't heard, I have a new book coming out. It's my very first book. It's entitled Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body. This is a book that I've been working on for more than five years, and that's based on more than 30 years of research and experience. There's protocols for everything from sleep to exercise to stress control.

protocols related to focus and motivation. And of course, I provide the scientific substantiation for the protocols that are included. The book is now available by presale at protocolsbook.com. There you can find links to various vendors. You can pick the one that you like best. Again, the book is called Protocols, an Operating Manual for the Human Body.

and if you're not already following me on social media i am huberman lab on all social media platforms so that's instagram x threads facebook and linkedin and on all those platforms i discuss science and science related tools some of which overlaps with the content of the the Huberman Lab podcast, but much of which is distinct from the information on the Huberman Lab podcast. Again, it's Huberman Lab on all social media platforms.

And if you haven't already subscribed to our Neural Network newsletter, the Neural Network newsletter is a zero cost monthly newsletter that includes podcast summaries as well as what we call protocols in the form of one to three page PDFs that cover everything from how to optimize your sleep, how to optimize your sleep, optimized dopamine, deliberate cold exposure. We have a foundational fitness protocol that covers cardiovascular training and resistance training.

All of that is available completely zero cost. You simply go to Hubermanlab.com, go to the menu tab in the top right corner, scroll down to newsletter and enter your email. And I should emphasize that we do not share your email with anybody. Thank you once again for joining me for today's discussion with David Cho. And last, but certainly not least, thank you for your interest in science.