Welcome to the Huberman Lab guest series where I and an expert guest discuss science and science based tools for everyday life I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine
Today marks the third episode in our four episode series about mental health with Dr. Paul Conti Today's episode deals with the topic of healthy relationships How to define what a healthy relationship is and how to achieve healthy relationships of all kinds including romantic relationships
interpersonal relationships at work friendships with family and of course with oneself This episode builds on the framework of the psychology of self and mental health that was established in the first and second episodes of this series However, even if you didn't listen to the first or second episode in this series Today's episode will still contain a lot of information and protocols that you will find valuable for improving your relationships
That said if you have the opportunity to listen to the first and second episodes in this series I think you'll find those to be tremendously beneficial at any point during today's episode Dr. Conti Discusses what makes for a successful relationship of any kind as well as tools to improve those relationships He discusses various types of bonds including healthy bonds and trauma bonds not just in the context of romantic relationship But in the context of all types of relationships
We also discuss different challenges that people face in relationships including abusive relationships And we discuss the role of power dynamics anxiety and boundaries in relationships both from the perspective of unhealthy relationships But more importantly from the understanding and protocols to cultivate healthy relationships While there is an abundance of opinions and information out there on the internet these days about relationships both healthy and unhealthy
Today's discussion approaches the topic of relationships through an entirely different lens Which is the lens of the self in terms of one's conscious and subconscious mind And how multiple conscious and subconscious minds through different individuals Interact with one another in ways that we can see and ways that we can't see and all of that framed within the actionable steps That any of us can take to improve our relationship to our self and to others
Before we begin I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public
In keeping with that theme. I'd like to thank the sponsors of today's podcast our first sponsor is better help Better help offers professional therapy with a licensed therapist carried out all online I've been doing therapy for more than 30 years Well, I confess that initially I was forced to do that therapy as a condition for being let back into high school Over time, I learned that therapy is a tremendously valuable practice
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Hubertman to get 10% off your first month again, that's better help HELP.com slash Hubertman today's episode is also brought to us by waking up Waking up is a meditation app that offers dozens of guided meditation sessions mindfulness trainings yoga need your sessions and more
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That's waking up calm slash huberman and now for my discussion about mental health with doctor Paul Conti
Dr. Conti welcome back. Thank you. Happy to be here Today we're going to discuss relationships and that will often focus on romantic relationships but also relationships between friends between family members And inevitably the relationship to self which is what we really focused on in episodes one and two of this series episode one being all the things that go into a healthy self and how to understand what is unhealthy and healthy and all of us and make adjustments
to the unhealthy aspects of our unconscious and conscious through really specific proactive Behaviourers and patterns of thought so really a road map to these ideals that we call mental health and understanding of the self Today we want to talk about relationships from the perspective of of course how people relate But I have a feeling it's going to have something to do with or perhaps almost everything to do with our relationship to understanding ourselves first Yes
So just to make sure that we're all on the same page regardless of whether or not people have seen episodes one and two And certainly people do not need to have seen or listened to episodes one and two of the series in order to understand today's discussion Could you please tell us
What is a healthy person and how can we ask ourselves the sorts of questions that allow us to determine whether or not we are healthy and Where to look in terms of making adjustments if we want to be healthier than we already are which I have to believe Almost everybody if not everybody certainly wants to be the healthiest and best expression of themselves so that they can do
The most for themselves and for others in the world. So The the linchpin of it all right is the agency and gratitude as verbs right that's the top of the mountain right There's a lot of climbing we do to get to the top of the mountain once we're over the top of the mountain
Then things are in a better place and even though they're two words right agency is of course a word A gratitude is a word But it doesn't mean that they're separate concepts approaching the world through the lens of agency and gratitude thought of as
One thing because they come together and they come together as verbs like that's What we're aiming for right because that's the thing that we can work towards right if you think about what comes Underneath of that right it takes us back to the the two pillars and the the ten cupboards Right and if we're looking in there enough we're reminding like what is in my unconscious mind?
I might not be aware of when we generate some curiosity about my defense mechanisms and my character structure and think about what's salient inside of me Like if we're doing all of that then what we're doing we're building empowerment we're building humility and then ultimately the
Expression of all of that is the agency and gratitude and it's something that we can't have Enough of like I say what's the best amount of that the most that's possible right because we're going to engage in the world In the healthiest way because agency and gratitude does it mean like we're happy about everything right if there's something negative And we can change that then we don't feel happy about that
We the sense of gratitude in me makes me more likely to feel that I can change that right or to take the chance of trying to change that And then the agency part of that concept can come more to the fore and I can make the change So it's not about bliss right
It's not about forgiving self and others for all sorts of things and not working to make better It's about being in the world and being as aware as I can possibly be Including being aware that there are things I'm not aware of right so sort of having a healthy Respect and an orientation to the world that values truth and values understanding and exploration If we do all of that then we reach the top of the mountain through the agency and gratitude and then what
Builds upon that or what comes from that is the the peace the contentment the delight the generative drive being strengthened like that all comes Together and then the aggressive or we say aggressive because that's a traditional term with the aggressive or the assertive right the assertiveness or Sertion drive however What whatever word we want to put to that that drive exist in us in a way that subserves the generative drive
The same thing with the pleasure drive in us. It's exists in us But it's subserving the generative drive and then all those good things come together And they come together to help us be as healthy as we can and to stay healthy
Right including when tribulation or difficulties come our way so that we stay as best we can in the agency and gratitude as verbs and again There's nothing theoretical about this like it's a way To live and and there are a lot of people who live some of their lives or parts of their lives Through that right and we can aspire to it and we can work towards it And if we're the best that we can be then we're going to be in our relationships the best we can be like think about it
Like you and I have a relationship. We know each other. We're working together If I can bring my best self to you to thinking about you to understanding You if I can bring the agency and the gratitude then I'm going to do right by you I'm going to mentalize this idea of thinking about what's going on inside of you Like I'm going to bring the best of all of that and then because we have a relationship There's also an us like there's a me there's a you there's something that happens between us
That's the relationship that's the us and I will also bring my best self to that thing that is no longer just me or just you But that isn't us and that applies to all relationships right you can apply that to seeking health in every single relationship in our lives What you're saying really speaks to the importance of people Taking a real look at themselves You know, which is not necessarily an inventory of self in the typical sense that we're used to hearing it
But rather through this lens or map of the self that was spelled out in episodes one and two and again for those that are just joining the series now um the map as we're referring to it is available as a downloadable PDF
Um in the show note captions if people want to get that it's completely zero cost You can just go there and access it or just view it on a screen printed out whatever whatever you like You certainly don't need to do that Because here again, we're talking about the core elements of that map
Which i understand correctly arrived eventually at a Set of verb states that we're calling agency and gratitude those are not separate as you pointed out they work together You described as it on top of the geyser right and i really like that like there's a lot of things going on
But then it all uplifts to something right and if we're doing it in the right way in the in the diligent way Then it is like a geyser and what it's lifting up on top of it is the agency and gratitude I love you put those words to it and i think it captures it really profoundly Well the stuff that geysers up perhaps deserves a bit of our attention Just for a few moments You describe these two pillars that I described as geysering up to agency and gratitude in the in the best circumstances, but
The best circumstances we want to remind ourselves and everybody are attainable by looking at what's in those pillars Um those two pillars are the structure of self so really understanding something about the structure of self So that includes some understanding of the unconscious mind some understanding of the conscious mind defense mechanisms Character structure and self that was all reviewed and described in episodes one and two
As well as the functions of self which are more of the verb states the expressions of the structure of self self-awareness in the first of those defense mechanisms in action and here um, I'd be remiss if I didn't Tell myself and everybody else again that defense mechanisms are not always bad
There can be healthy defense mechanisms. They can protect us in very valuable ways And then this notion of salience what we pay attention to you know what sorts of scripts are going on in our head about ourselves and others
What are we paying attention to how are we interpreting those in our head and to others and in most importantly perhaps to ourselves And then our actual behaviors of what are we doing from the time we wake up until the time we go to sleep at night and then our Striveings our sense of hopefulness
Or perhaps lack of strivings and there I'm reminded also that No, but he does all of these things perfectly all the time we all have elements within us that perhaps are not Serving to guise are up into agency and gratitude as well as they could But that all of us have the capacity to look at
At these two pillars and these Ten things that were just listed off as you describe them as cupboards that we look into an examine and think about and that If we can do that with a skilled clinician like yourself or Another psychiatrist or psychologist terrific But even if we don't have access to that that we can examine within us What is and is not serving to guise are up into agency and gratitude?
We can bring any issue of self To those two pillars and the ten cupboards within them any issue of self why because that's what it is Right in the sense that like it is is the us what's inside of me?
I have an unconscious mind. I have a conscious mind. I have a defensive structure. I have a character structure I have a self like like that's what it is right and all the functions that you mentioned They're all going on within that Structure of self they're manifesting themselves like that's what it is when we're being right in the active way of the verb Being right that's what it is which is why we can bring to it any issue of
Self even though of course there's tremendous complexity there, you know the million things that go on in a second You know underneath the surface in the unconscious mind and our defensive structures and how to see them But like we're human beings. We're complicated right like that's okay Because we have methods of understanding we have methods of inquiry and we can use those methods to make things better And that's how we make the guys are as strong as it can be where like maybe some
Maybe some some of the waters running counter current in the in the okay Well, let's try and have things go all in the same direction But we don't need things to be perfect for for the guys are to spring up and the agency and gratitude to then be uplifted upon it
So everybody has one of these maps as I understand it and therefore anytime we're talking about Relationships romantic relationships or otherwise we're talking about The intersection or overlap of those maps in some way maybe even the synergy and the outgrowth of those maps becomes its own map
I think we'll get to this a little bit later. Yes When I and most people hear the word relationships in particular romantic relationships I make a couple of automatic assumptions First of all I have to Assume that people are either in a relationship or out of a relationship
There's probably a third category out there of plurals and other things, but we'll keep it relatively simple And most people I assume When they search for or enter or enter to relationship they thought about Whether or not they had resonance with the person whether or not you know there was a
Intellectual or mutual interest resonance or a physical resonance You know maybe something about family history common goals etc um That's typically what people think about and then a perhaps if people have a bit more of a psychological understanding or they're
Reading some you know pop psychology books these days. You know some of which are are pretty good Um, they might understand something about Themselves or the other person being a bit more anxious or a bit more relaxed So you'll hear things like anxious attached secure attached things that of that sort if we could just step back from all of that for a moment and examine it through the lens of The maps as you're describing them which exist in all of us and that really are the map
to being the best version of ourselves If we look at relationships in terms of lists of you know where where people went to school if they went to school The you know are their parents married or divorced, you know, do they have trauma that they're aware of or not aware of these kinds of things
I guess we could call those and here. I'm borrowing language that you used earlier off camera So I want to acknowledge that um, you know points of compatibility Like like I think that seems like a reasonable place to start right do people want the same thing
So if you if you could I could you talk a little bit about points of compatibility in relationship and how those show up um For better or for worse when you encounter people in the clinical setting, you know when you see a relate somebody who's in a relationship That's really working for them and it's healthy Versus if they're in a relationship where it's really unhealthy Um, presumably there's some knowledge about points of compatibility, but I'm guessing that's not always intuitive
Mm-hmm, right. I think the place we start there is acknowledging what we can know and what we can't know Right, so this idea that there are levels of emergence where where things at a lower level come together and create something that's new We see this throughout science from subatomic particles all the way through to culture, right? So someone could know theoretically like lots and lots and lots about you and lots and lots and lots about me
But they don't know about us, right? Like they don't know how we interact They don't know if we have shared interest what we talk about right they they don't know that no one knows that like we don't know that About the combination of people we can't know it in advance But we often believe that we can which then leads to a lot of false metrics of trying to figure things out So when we're looking for compatibility the thought was very basic tangible things like if it rom in romance
For example if there's someone who absolutely wants to have a family and there's someone who absolutely does not want to have a family Okay, that would be a reason for those two people to not choose one another, right? So there are there are these factors but but the factors are all in a sense very evident and very concrete, right?
if we go If we go beyond that we say okay, we can see the obvious right then what we're looking for is really a compatibility of generative drives Right, and then that it tells you can these people then get along? Like you know, maybe one of them is from one side of the world and the others from the other side of the world or One's an accountant and the other is a musician and you know It doesn't mean that oh, they're built not to get along or that if they're doing the same thing
They're built to get along or if they're they went to college in the same place or they went to college versus not going to college Right, there's so much there That we we try to build a story on and then what we do is we miss the forest for the trees, right?
And the trees I think are the factors that Don't matter so get let's think about the factors that do matter Person wants to have a family other person doesn't that's relevant But the the trees that mislead us might be did they have the same level of education? Did they have the same family structure growing up? Our parents still together
What do they enjoy? Are they creative or Scientific or whatever were creatively scientific right we we could look at all of that But I think then we're making a bunch of trees that mislead us if you say look to these people Come at the world through how much agency and gratitude is there guiding them? How you know how high is the top of that geyser? How high is it uplifting that how strong is the generative drive?
If we match people upon that then we see oh Those people got along and those people didn't and then the other all the other factors like pheromones, right? And things that we can't understand or like we flex it first impression So so like we get let things develop honoring the truth of what we can't know that when you put two people together You get something that's different than the sum of both people right? It's not an overlap of maps, right?
It's a new map right and the map is informed by things that are that are on each individual's map But what we're looking for are maps that don't have very significant uh differences around just clear concrete things, right?
But once we get beyond that the maps can synergize in all sorts of beautiful and unpredictable ways And if both are are coming from the perspective of a generative drive that is at the forefront Great you put those maps together and see what happens maybe nothing happens Okay, those people don't go out on a second date You know, maybe something happens, but it doesn't develop in certain ways Okay, those people data then stop dating like this happens all the time, right?
But we set the odds in our favor That the generative drive in each that is at the forefront Means that their maps can synergize in ways that can then be beautiful and ways that can maybe bring to both people That which which they want and I think There's a simplicity to that
That I think if we honor it can be very very helpful whether it's romance is friendships of looking at what the truth of it is instead of the factors that we try and gain a false sense of security If we're we're using them to select upon you mentioned several times
The generative drive and I definitely Would like to learn more about that and spend some time there in the context of relationships But just to drill a little bit further into what we've all heard so often And you touched upon a few of these themes Around points of compatibility But also where
Sometimes we can Respond to the wrong things when thinking about compatibility again We're framing this mainly in the context of hypothetical romantic relationships But certainly it pertains to other sorts of relationships things like You know is one person educated With an advanced degree and is and is the other person also You know, we tend to assume that people who are Are somehow a better match than people who aren't it's sort of an implicit assumption that's often made not always or that
You know if two people really love music that they will enjoy music together and therefore You know the sum of the whole is greater than either of its parts You know and then and I think those things are utterly irrelevant interesting and I want to hear more about this because I think that
If you think about Which I'm sure you don't but like dating apps for instance like what's listed out there or First your second dates which you know Consistive like learning a little bit about somebody and what they're doing and maybe even a little bit about their history and and Maybe an activity
And certainly an intentional awareness to how the other person is behaving in the context of different things like you know A waiter or a waitress and how they're treating people and and you and and then you hear about things like um What are the this is not something I'm familiar with. Oh right the um the love languages people are like oh
What's their love languages? You know, it's like gifts or like acts of physical Touch or you know or acts of service or something I met someone recently who and she told me my love languages all of them You know, which I think is the most honest answer right because sure there's probably some waiting around what people value more or less And in the absence of the things they value the most it would probably feel a bit like deprivation in any relationship but
As I'm describing all this I'm realizing more and more like Yes, all of that matters anxious to attach secure attached love languages etc But it really doesn't get to the heart of the matter It really doesn't get to this as you're describing it this Generative drive in individuals and whether or not those match up well along the points of compatibility Right with the other person's generative drive and you know I haven't run a controlled study for this but the best evidence I have is that there
Fortunately are many people out there who are in happy healthy relationships But there are many many many people who are not Either because they can't find them or they're in them and they're not healthy or they're not happy etc So if you could um elaborate a bit more on the generative drive again reminding us what the nature of that is We cover this a bit in episodes one and two but what what the nature of that is and and some different ways that that's expressed and how that shows up in
Healthy relationship. Yeah, yeah I think we really disprove The idea that that some of these these factors that I think are superficial in the context of whether people are going to be compatible They're not superficial things, but they're not germane right so let's say you think about music right and say two people are contemplating romance right and They both really like music
Well that could go very very well. Let's say they both have a strong generative drive that they those pillars are pretty healthy And the guys are of the agency and gratitude is riding upon it and they can find peace in them in themselves
Um, they're strongly generative then they could become interested in the music the other person likes isn't there's not going to be a complete overlap Right even if people generally like the same thing But they say they like different things like just liking music or even liking the same music
There's still difference right so the person has to go beyond themselves right and say okay I'm interested in like what you think even about the music we both like right what factors do you like their places of Of learning and of growth for both and you could see how both liking music whether it's the same or different music That sounds great right We could also see how that cannot be great right if if the generative drive is too low and the aggression drive is too high
Then I'm gonna think I like music my music is better than yours or you know Right or you know people then start they'll the fragment right even though they have the same interest or if the pleasure drive is too high
Then they think I want to listen to my music not yours. I'm familiar with it instead of Hey, I'm interested in that music Because because you're interested in it and I'm interested in you right which leads us to the second part Let's say you have someone who really has no interest in music and someone who does well There can be an openness of saying if I'm interested in this person And this person is really interested in music like well that I have some interest in it right
I want to learn something about it. I want to experience some of it with The other person and let's say that person then find say that's not my thing It's not the thing we connect on then why would that be the end of the world right? Many people one person goes to concert the other doesn't right?
So you know we we try and find these points of commonality because I think we get over reductionist And then we think oh here's a bunch of factors that we will identify and what they do is they obscure us From the primary factor which is the generative drive which of course will then induce open-mindedness Mentalization if I don't like music and you do instead of saying Was he like music for you know?
I need a friendship with somebody likes music, you know you think Hey, like that's interesting like if I'm interested in you as a friend that I've respect for you and what you think then Why would I not have some interest in what you're interested in you know?
So so this idea of compatibility revolves around The health in each person it doesn't revolve around factors That are anything but the concrete logistical factors that would just keep two people apart I love the idea that healthy relationships center around the factors that really matter within the self Right in particular the generative drive and I and I love the example of someone being able to be curious about somebody's
Interest about their partner's interests even though they might not share those um From the standpoint of agency and gratitude because the agency component there is really key I think that a lot of people feel as if they aren't really good at something or really knowledgeable about something then
It's not for them Right which is the opposite of having agency and gratitude because gratitude is closely tied to humility You know, how could we know everything you know it can be good certain things and not others So the way you describe it includes aspects of openness of humility
But also the agency side the empowerment like if I'm going to learn more than perhaps you know we could enjoy more of that together Perhaps not right that I think um this is what I'm sensing and I'm also sensing that um the words like minded You know like-minded people Has so much more to do with their generative drives and how those match up As opposed to the activities that they prefer engaging in And the sorts of foods they like or the movies they like and um which
Makes sense at some level, but I think it is still uh counterintuitive for for a lot of us who um just kind of reflexively Think oh like they like the same things, you know or maybe that maybe even they met at work because they like the same type of work They like to live in a certain area of the country and therefore by proximity they met um and this raises all sorts of um Interesting ideas perhaps about um the statistics of what we see right like two musicians together
Um we therefore assume that musicians belong together or two scientists together I know loads of scientists scientists couples or scientists physician couples and um but of course the numbers are skewed Because they were working in environments where it increased the probability they would interact
So this is actually a vote for online dating in some sense because it breaks through all those Um sometimes even geographical barriers, but certainly that the the traditional barriers of culture right right And if you think about could we're talking about relationships?
So I would like my relationships to last as long as possible right That means now we're talking about my lifespan and my health span right like that then becomes part of that discussion And of course we're very interested in lifespan and health span and we see
People do much much better when they're interconnected in the world around them when they're still learning new things like we know That's true that people often will tell you know those sort of trail off of of what they're learning whether it's it's music It's literature. It's the world around us You know relatively early in our lifespan, but the person who's interconnected learning new things right has a much greater probability of
Living longer and living healthier right so think what's that about? It's about a generative drive right?
It's about you know what I've learned a lot of things over the course of my life and I'm 80 years old now and like great that there's more to learn Right and like that's what you see it makes me think of a woman who's around 90 years old And my practice who like she's always learning new things like she's super interested in things And I'm always struck about how like she seems so much younger right and and there that's not just a selection bias
Like oh, I just happened to see that in that person like she has the factors that predispose to aging in the way that's healthiest and happiest So it really comes down the root of all of it in ourselves in our relationships in the quality of them over time And how long we get to have them really arises from a generative drive and that's the thing that makes us then Undefended right and let's us find interest in things about other people that are different from the things in us
Which also comes about naturally like I think it's interesting that we have this sort of bias like so that musicians belong together Well, why they're familiar with the same things right? I guess they have the same interest same thing with scientists But then a lot of people like different foods right like I love different ethnic foods like why because it's different
Right, it's it's an appreciation of difference. I don't want to eat just like I did growing up and many many many people are like that That's an appreciation of difference of diversity So sometimes we'll kind of harness that and we'll look at it and we'll say oh like that's present in us But for whatever reason we become very reductionist about relationships And now we're trying to match based upon sameness right and like sameness
This is is not the point of it. I mean there even thoughts right about people then in some way seeking difference right and maybe pharaoh Mones are telling us that like I actually know very little about that But I certainly know that striving for sameness
Doesn't make good things happen in relationships You know, I've been doing this for over 20 years and and like I don't see that the alleged factors of sameness Matter again, unless they're so concrete like if this person is absolutely going to live in North America
And that person's absolutely going to live in South America Let's not potentially put them together But once we get away from almost that level of concreteness Let's look for something different and then like everything else It simplifies
Right the higher we go up the ladder the more simple things get if you're looking at the pillars structure of self function of self You're creating the agency and gratitude then what are you looking for when you're looking for a partner a match in generative drive
I want to make I want mine to be strong and I see that it's strong in this person they create in a way You know what I do science they grow a garden We're generative together right like that could be super compatible because we're looking at the one factor that really matters I'd like to take a brief break and acknowledge one of our sponsors AG one AG one is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that meets all of your foundational nutrition needs I started taking AG one way back in 2012
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And it has occurred to be before because I've experienced both that the phrases absence makes the heart grow fonder And out of sight out of mind are in direct contradiction with one another so they're both true depends on the circumstances and you know who the hell knows why it could Right you also hear opposites attract, but they don't stay together Right you hear similar you know the important thing is to find someone similar to you that that or that there's like one person right that's right
If you I mean these are if we really think about it crazy right notions yes, but they drive a lot of what People think about a lot of relationships right they drive angst right they drive bad choices they drive situations that then create a sense of guilt and shame and inadequacy like we mislead ourselves By not going to the basics of what is actually true like when we look at myself make myself as healthy as I can be right because if I'm healthy
I'll recognize a lack of health in the other right so it also protects us against bad relationships And then if I'm going to make myself healthy which we're describing how that looks wouldn't I want someone who also
wants to make themselves healthier at least if we're going to ally right let's let's ally around making both of Of ourselves healthier Absolutely, and we're going to go deeper into how to Look into the map of self and how that relates to relationship Uh certainly more as we go along this discussion
You've mentioned several times however about generative drive and that it really is The definition of like-minded in some sense And you also mentioned aggressive drives and pleasure drives themes that we touched on again in episodes one and two But listening to those episodes is certainly not necessary to digest what we're talking about today Could you go a little bit deeper into the generative drive flush out for us? What that is um, I think generative I think generator I think energy
Um, I hear aggression or aggressive drive. I think as I think most people do um friction maybe even conflict Maybe physical conflict maybe verbal conflict But I know it's some of that perhaps but a whole lot more and then pleasure drive and pleasure
Uh some people think bliss some people think delight um and some people probably have all sorts of specific things They think of with respect to pleasure So if you just flesh those out for us a little bit more because I think those are going to serve as um cornerstones of today's Uh discussion Sure Drives and in this case the generative drive sort of exist Within us and what they do is they're defining potential, right?
So so right now one could argue if we just pause for a couple seconds. We're not doing anything generative in those seconds Right, but then we resume doing something That we believe is generative right so at the time we're pausing That's when we can sort of look at that as a as a drive within us to to To make new learning right to understand things we didn't understand before to spread a sense of goodness
Right, so it resides in us in a way that is determined by a whole bunch of different factors like like everything else that's determined within us There's a nature and a nurture component So some aspect of it or what are the genetics that came down to us? What are formative experiences?
But we can go in and alter that so if we see the drive as a set of potentials like in that moment we pause There's a set of potentials Within us like potential of where we can take our thoughts our actions our reflections our decisions Hey, that's the drive within us and It exists within us in a way that we could Localize now like if we think enough about okay. How much of a generative drive is there in a person?
How much is that person looking to the to to Make a better life for themselves or a better world around them? And how do they feel about themselves and their ability to do that how generative are they or how shut down or demoralized or envious?
So we can in a sense Localize that and again the localization has these genetic and nurture components to it But we can then go and influence that and that's the that's the importance if the drive is a set of potentials A set of possibilities then that drive is one in the same Prevated with however we want to to to describe that with the agency and gratitude because the agency and gratitude is sort of the operative form of that
That's the verb right? It's the drive actually driving something right?
So if you have a strong generative drive then agency and gratitude are leading the decisions the reflections are coming Through that the aggression within us or again, that's the this the historical word but we can say aggression and assertion Proactivity proactiveness right all of this inside of us and are drive for pleasure for gratification Right that all is then it's in us, but it's observing the generative drive meaning the generative drive that set of potentials and possibilities
Is dominant which of course makes sense with agency and gratitude those active verbs being what is most Active right and then we're also going to feel at times and hopefully at a lot of times right that that set of peacefulness that sets of Contentment the sense of delight right what you're describing when you're you know doing the podcast and you're in it And all these good things are happening to you right?
There's a strong generative drive in you that set of potentials are being actualized through the verbs of agency and gratitude Like you're doing it all right then and as you're doing it you have a sense of peace and contentment as you're enacting all of it
And then that makes you healthier reinforces the generative drive it protects you against the next sling or arrow of outrageous fortune that will come your way Right you become more self-knowledgeable more you become stronger right and and ultimately that's what we're Looking for like that's the state of goodness and I believe that if you look historically What is it that we're seeking we can put so many words to it and we're choosing to put these
Words to it. I mean, I think that this is the the structure because I think the science the history the clinical experience the Phenomenology I think it all tells us this we can put different words to it But what we're looking at when we're looking at truth and how to get to the happiness quote unquote that that people have sought through the ages I mean, I think we know enough now we've learned enough that we can say oh this is what it looks like and it fits
The arbiter of all truth which is as you get further up the hierarchy it gets simpler That's true about humans what's going on in my unconscious is is very very complicated right But if that's something too as we get higher up to like I'm approaching the world with a lot of agency and gratitude
Right, that's a lot simpler and that's what can be common among us Which is why if my pillars are very different from your pillars and what We've struggled against each is very different and what we may still have to work against is very different Well, we can be extremely compatible as friends because are we are we working on ourselves? Are we fostering the generative drive so we're coming at the world in that way an agency and gratitude?
That's the similarity right between us that matters and Ultimately, we're looking at the potential that every moment we're building the potential in us for what comes at the next moment Which is why we're describing the overlap the point of commonality that really matters
That that matters we're putting a label to it right we're saying it's the generative drive But it is also that okay, we both come at the world through agency and gratitude You know if two people are assessing compatibility, but if we're looking at something to nest that under and what seems
Most logical is the set of potentials within us that we're building and altering each moment and then as I alter it in this moment Right, it's altered and then affects my next moment right if I do something that's just kind of thoughtless to somebody You know because I'm in it. I'm in a bad mood right then what am I doing?
I'm projecting out my aggression I'm doing something that basically makes me less than right and then I'm going to feel less in the next moment Whether that moment is about me or is about someone else the drives are the potentials in us But we are actively working on them determining them changing them each moment I'm well on board the idea that the the typical pairings Let's call them the idiosyncratic pairings of you know musician with musician in many cases
But you know sometimes very verbal person with quieter person, you know introvert with extrovert or introvert with introvert you that all of that takes Backseat or it perhaps even back backseat and perhaps even is out of the vehicle compared to the critical importance of generative drive right
When we think about Generative drives and individuals you beautifully described what a generative drive is and how it shows up in individuals When thinking about generative drives in romantic relationships, however Because generative drive can be expressed to varying degrees
Does one often see that or do you think that a Matching of sort of levels of generative drives is what fosters the best relationships in other words Let's say somebody has a pretty high pleasure drive um, but not us very strong aggressive also pro also called pro-activeness drive and so maybe like
They're um, they watch a lot of Netflix like a lot of Netflix But they're not even the sort of person that's like really excited about the shows and telling you about them because there's a version of watching a lot of Netflix where the person is
Um really interested in learning and in knowing maybe even they're thinking about writing a writing something You know poetry or book or they're bringing some of that to their life right I mentioned that way because watching Netflix is in bad per se right it's not anti-generative Is it an escape or is it generative is a person thinking about what they're gonna do?
They're gonna write that book or are they just trying to numb out and at the end of five hours in front of the Television they don't know what those five hours were right there's no intrinsic value judgment Based upon a lot of things that we make in intrinsic value we make value judgments about right you have to look at who is the person
What is the context are they being generative or not? Yeah, some of the movies and shows that I've watched in relationships became the the points of connection around At least to me tremendously interesting discussions on hikes that we took the next day and um and reflections on our own
Relationship and work in life and so I'm so glad that you point out that there's nothing intrinsically valuable or or Invaluable about something like Netflix Um or even intrinsically passive about doing something like sitting around or or even reading books for that matter There's a passive version of reading great books also people forget that It's hard to read a great book and not learn something. I guess that's why they're called great books
But um, but there is a version of that. I know many people who want to possess the book I read the book and I'm gonna check it off I don't know what was in it like people do that that is not generative so should we consider matching of level or expression of generative drives as Perhaps that what we are all seeking in seeking relationship like that and do you think that people tend to pair up Naturally pair up with people that have a similar level of generative drive
Or if they don't do you think it leads to problems right? Yeah, I think that by and large people don't that It's not the thing that we're thinking about and looking for in ourselves or others and I absolutely believe that it makes problems and Let's take a look to not look it makes problems to not look right. It makes sense to write the fact that we're not basing it upon generative drive Does indeed I think make many many many many many many and in fact countless
Problems and I would take as an example think about the idea of a trauma bond right a trauma bond is not a bad thing I Sounds like a strong statement because the way that I hear a trauma bond Used is it's a bad thing right, but it doesn't have to be so so let's take a look at it
Imagine that you have what people call a trauma bond. You know, you have two people who Let's just what we're make up a situation right there They're functioning in the world around them, but they each have had some very significant trauma
That is creating issues in them. So let's say they're avoidance issues Person doesn't feel safe or comfortable in the world around them They get invited to places that they like to go, but they don't go right they want to go to the museum and see something really new and cool
There but there might be a crowd right I mean this happens right and let's say you have two people who both have this in them It could be because the trauma is similar the trauma could be night and day right but they each have this in them They could bond around that trauma in a way that worsens the trauma That's why people think negatively of a trauma bond right so if the case is that the trauma bond is not a good thing
For these two people say why is that it's not because both of them have had trauma and both of them are impacted by trauma And both of them are impacted by trauma in similar ways. It's not that It's that the drives are not in a healthy place and the gratification of
The generative drive and the pleasure drives are not high enough. So let's imagine the generative drive is could be relatively low in each of these people and one or the other or They could have a naturally high drive that's being thwarted right so so there's something that's out of balance where the drive is the ability to express The drive right is there enough agency right if there's not like let's say one person is really really shut down That person can't stand their job right?
Okay, something is shutting that person down the generative drive wishes greater expression They go back and look at themselves you can bring that into line right but it something is out of balance at the time The pleasure drive maybe low or it may be high But it may not be gratified
It may be that that person loves museums and wants to go to the museum but can't find that gratification Right, that's a possibility the aggression or assertion drive would be on the Low end right, but it could be higher Maybe if that person felt safer right that drive within them has a lot of latitude in it And maybe it could move higher right but something is out of balance in the drives and in their expression Right
That's the problem because let's look at the other side where a trauma bond is a great thing right?
So each of the people in the example has trauma and they recognize it in themselves and they understand How it makes things harder for them and and then that they're communicating about how it makes it hard in the other Right, so maybe there's a lot of overlap right in social avoidance and sense of vulnerability But maybe there are things that are different in one person versus the other So then they can come together and say look the what's the goal of life?
Like I would like to be as healthy as I can be I'm working on myself You want to be as healthy as you can be we want to be as healthy as we can be and if we're healthy We also help each of us be healthy So maybe those two people Neither of which they would ever go to the museum on their own
Because the trauma inside of them is at a point it hasn't been worked through or it's at a place where they just Simply feel too vulnerable right but together They can go to the museum and then the bond around trauma helps them be Healthy the drives are in a better place because they're able to recognize Hey, there are things going on in me that I'd like to be different and better and you recognize that too And we can talk about it with one another right?
So they're in a healthier place and then from that healthier place They build greater health So much of what we hear about in terms of friction points in relationship centers around it seems Communication or lack of communication and as you're describing the role of the generative drive and healthy relationship It seems to me that it ties back in every way to agency and gratitude and agency being such a critical element of communication because
Wherever you've identified that okay, there's a potential problem here Um people with high gender drive in these examples seem to be capable of like self-inquiry asking the other person questions that bring bring them closer together and to a deeper understanding of the self I raise
this because one thing that's Often overheard or that I've overheard I of course have siblings and friends or are And I'll place this in the the way that I've most typically heard it, but I'm sure it exists in other ways too Which is um in the the conversation my head is one where a woman is saying you know There with somebody Or dating somebody and like he's he's so clueless like I wish that he would just do this thing
Sometimes these are acts of chivalry like maybe it's flowers or vacations, but more often than not it's it's A request or a complaint about a lack of proactiveness You know, this is also what ratchets up to these very pan statements that you hear like oh, there's no real men
These days or like there no real men left or you know this kind of thing you also hear it in the reverse right you hear men Making pan statements about women And here we're doing this in the context of heterosexual pairings, but of course it could all work just as well in homo
Right, it's exactly could all work In the context of homosexual pairings too So you hear those sorts of things and it sounds like a lack of communication And you know, okay, maybe one person needs to be better at asking for their needs to be met
Maybe the other person needs to develop more of an awareness of what the other person needs of course We all seem to kind of intrinsically wish that um things would just happen for us without the the need to request them or ask for them But I'm realizing again
That all of that is is distracting commotion because that's not really what's going on What what's really going on it seems is that the engine behind communication the engine behind curiosity a desire to learn and know and Create something from that learning and knowing in the relationship The generative drive is really what's the issue or the lack of generative drive in any of those conversations It seems one could circle back to that and you know, okay, well
Someone's not asking with the right questions and therefore not doing the right things because they're they don't either have a sense of agency Or they don't have gratitude for the situation they're in including their own ability to do that
Right, so when you hear you know people aren't showing up for the relationship. They're not showing up or you know She's not showing up or again, let's make the pan statement go in the other direction that you know That somebody just wants a lot of attention right they just need an excess amount of attention won't let me do my own thing But also wants me to work and be successful You know again these are stereotypes but all of that seems very distracting however all of it
Seems far simpler if we push it through this filter of Generative drives and whether or not it's being expressed Yes, yes, I think maybe the best example of this because it's so highly charged is imagine that the pleasure drive through the lens of sex and sexuality Right, so imagine that people are in a pairing the inner relationship because of how they got there We're taking people are in a relationship and one has a sex drive with which means an interest in sex and maybe
Procivities for a diversity of sexual experience that say if we just for sake of this example We put on a one to ten scale that that person is a two Okay, now it's at the other person in the time being the greatest. Yes. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Tell me right that person is a two Now let's say the partner is an eight Okay, so so there's a big mismatch there you think how does that normally go?
The two stays a two the eight stays an eight and things don't go well right it creates friction in the relationship at a minimum It blows the relationship apart at a maximum the person who's a two feels inadequate often I mean it's not always right but but this is how the softening goes person who's a two feels inadequate because the person who's an eight wants either more or different right and the person is it who's a two doesn't now that person feels bad and they may feel bad about
Themselves are resentful of the person with a higher sex drive the person on the higher level feels now resentful of the person at the lower level Or maybe they feel like there's something wrong with them because their sex drives too high or they have an interest that that the other person Doesn't have and now they start labeling themselves like this happens all the time and it doesn't change
Most of the time and the problems are enormous. Okay, so so let's see How could that look how would that look with really high generative? drives and therefore the ability to think about self to think about others and to think about the us of the situation Right the two people together right so They be able to talk about it in ways that Wouldn't be faulting of the other and would acknowledge what's inside of them like the person with the lower drive could say you know it just
The thing that doesn't strike me as more interesting. I don't think about it more they could talk about all of that the person who Wishes more or wishes different could talk about that too right and could talk about what they feel inside If there's a frustration of that just like the person with the lower sex drive could talk about the how frustrating it feels to feel pressured right
So what are they developing? They're mentalizing right they're thinking about each other's emotional states and and They're coming at each other through agency and gratitude like I'm so grateful for you Remember see they were the examples these people are partners and they're happy with their partnership like oh my god
I'm so grateful. I found you right they would each feel that way I'm so grateful you're in my life like this happens to right and then from that lens You know the two isn't going to be coming eight the eight isn't going to become a two right but in general in situations like this
There can be somewhere in the middle right and and let's say the two You know be says like okay, you know what I can get out of my comfort zone a little bit Why don't most people try that because they feel embarrassed they feel self-conscious
You know that they don't want to try new things or try more like people get closed down Because there's such shame around sexuality you can you take people on any spectrum of sexuality and you will find shame you know not in every person but across whatever population
We're looking at because it's so emotionally charged so let's say in a loving caring relationship We're like that person feels the freedom inside so you know what Maybe I could enjoy sex a little more a little more often a little more In that person thinks about like somebody who's at a two Can then move that to a different place?
So you know a little bit more or maybe even a lot more depending and then the person who's at the higher level You know at the eight doesn't need another eight right in order to stay in the relationship But but something maybe more than a two right and then let's say they come into the middle and then the person who's an eight realizes like Look, I love you and you love me and and you you out of your comfort zone right in order to do this and like and loud
And it's like more fun for both of us so like you know what it's okay my higher sex traffic all deal with that that maybe just making it up like I would like to do it three times a week. We're doing it to two. Okay, you know what that that's fine both sides can live with it But it is not Fredbear so like well they can live with it. It's like no number one. They can live with it number two
It's better. It's better right the two at one point was thinking Hey anything more than a two is I can't do that right is shut down on the eight doesn't want anything less than an eight Now they're in the middle and the relationship is closer That's real that happens. What is it relying upon it's relying upon the generative drive to have the openness the ability to communicate
Maybe the person who's an eight say has a sexual proclivity. They're embarrassed about that happens all the time too But in the sense of acceptance of self and and the belief in the strength of the relationship and the acceptance of the other
You know people can broach things most people who feel like oh, I could never broach that it's not something bizarre or dangerous Like it's not something that in a relationship that's that's defined by the generative drive the other person is likely to reject so
Let's define our relationships through the generative drive and let's cultivate in self and others The most generative drive if somehow Let's say person A and person B here because it doesn't matter who's the eight and who's the two has cultivated more of a generative drive Then maybe that person could give more to the other
Before that person can give back to them. You know, we have these I think just Completely nonsensical ideas about mutuality right the idea that even in a situation that's supposed to be defined by love right and in a friendship is a form of love right so friendship um a collaborative
Uh endeavor right they're like these they have they have some affection in them right friendship can have love and often does and let's say the love of of romance that they're supposed to be some equality Right, they know the idea that well if I'm gonna give something I want you to give something to
I'm like it is not good if one person is always doing The giving things are out of balance, but it is very healthy to be able to say You know if I can give something and you're not in a place to give something let me just give something to you Right people don't
Always or maybe don't often depend on how we want to look at it give to others with a sense of freedom like and you don't owe me anything either Right why because it comes from love it comes from the abundance The the excess of goodness in me coming through
The the the agency that I feel the gratitude that I feel and then what's more likely you're much more likely the other person right To sort of feel like hey, I can go a little more you feel stronger you feel empowered making someone feel worse
Or saying you know what I can give you something, but you owe me something back right even if that's tacit right I'll give you know I can give you this now But you kind of know that the other person could end up doing the laundry for two months or something like this
Not okay. Why don't just give something right you're giving goodness and then the other person actually gets the goodness And they're more likely to find it within themselves right to to then Come a little out of their comfort zone develop, you know move their generative drive a little bit forward
So so gifts given to others with no expectation of return are gifts of abundance their gifts that arise from the generative drive and they make us more generative Think about the opposite what often happens each person makes the other feel guilty
Right right. Oh, you just person wants you want so much and look there you are again like people feel terrible about that Or you know there you don't want any sex or this or that the other person feels terrible like That's why the two stays the two and the eight stays the eight right but it doesn't have to be that way And it's also not that if both end up in the middle so both are a five that that's some compromised position that implies less
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based on my understanding of the generative drive the aggressive also We're calling it pro-activeness drive in the pleasure drive and the Importance of the generative drive being greater than the aggressive or Pleasure drives I can also see the potential problem of having like two eight along the Session desire scale or two nines Or two tens and actually have observed a lot of examples of this
For instance if they're let's take two nines. They're both people nine out ten on the on the Joy and sort of perclivity for sex adventurous sex etc on they're very high on the pleasure scale I Perhaps even so much so that they Don't pay attention to or one person doesn't pay attention to the critical need for Points of compatibility to be met like the desire to someday have a family. I've known couples like this
They're together for a long time. They seem to really enjoy one another. I know nothing of their sex lives But there just seems to be a very strong attachment around certain forms of pleasure that they both enjoy engaging in so this could be
Activities or travel. I mean here. We're saying you know now and I have ten on on the sex scale, but In many of those cases there's one person saying you know, but I want to have a family someday and they're just not into that or perhaps even like But he won't leave his wife
Right, you know, they're like involved in something that feels really good. They're matching along some Set pleasure drive but completely overlooking the larger goals of one or both people Right and in it, you know, here I point you to an instance of infidelity That's its own, you know, issues with morals etc but You see this a lot like people really orienting towards what feels good and who feels good to be with and that of course is Healthy, but that's not the entire picture
so would you say that what I'm describing is an example of where the pleasure drive has overcome the Generative drive because in the case of somebody wanting a family and the other person already having one and being unwilling to leave that one or the other person not wanting a family that the The generative drive of the the person who
Who wants a family is is not being respected. It's it or it's being undermined by this excess desire for pleasure Like they're just drawn into the moment and the amazing weekends and there but this person's incredible and their charismatic and I can't tell you how many times fed friends say that um, you know, they are they admire the person they're with But they know the relationship can't work because of all these other underlying issues right right right right
It's it's interesting. We both Overestimate and underestimate what say love can do right people so love can do anything No, if I spill that glass love's not going to put the water back in it right if I must live in North America And my partner must live in South America like we're not going to be okay, right?
So we say these things in a very wishful way love will overcome everything like this doesn't overcome that right Or maybe it does in the right circumstances so think about if the generative drive is very Very high right in both people so both people have say a strong need to live in a certain place
They can't find a compromised position. Maybe they live half the year in North America and half in South America But why because in that situation the love between them the which which is the generative drive in the relationship Right, so what does that mean?
The first person has to have a strong generative drive be healthy Understand it even though I I need to live in North America I doesn't does it actually mean that they really need to live in North America right I have to be able to see beyond myself and what does that mean to the person I love who needs to live on the other side of the world If the other person can do that too then in the relationship right which is a new entity right it emerges from one person and the other
You can know everything about one person everything about the other You don't know about the two of them together right so the two of them together are And us and if that us has a strong generative drive Which it can if if each person has a strong generative drive they can bring to the state of emergence of the us the generative drive and You know that's the we're talking about a relationship So say the love between them and they can find a way through so the idea that like
Love cures all things if we have to find what does that actually mean right? It doesn't mean we have a lot of pleasure together right or we like a lot of the same things like that That's not what that means and people can very very much love one another But not be aware of the limitations inside of them right because maybe there are other things going on in them Like say childhood trauma they love one another, but they can't get out of their comfort zone enough right?
So the point is if we make each ourselves as healthy as we can be and then two Cells come together that are making themselves as healthy as they can be then the us between them And really can fit that definition of love and do anything but we have to define that in the right way
In a way that honors the truth which again is not a higher degree of complexity It's actually more simple So you gave an example of a romantic relationship where one person has a strong sex drive and the other a weaker drive And then we talked about an example where both people have a
Essentially high sex drive and where that could potentially be Beneficial assuming that the generative drive is also high in both of them And we also explored a little bit of how it can be bad for relationship if it exceeds the generative drive What about the aggressive pro-activeness drive? How does that show up in romantic parents?
You know if one person has a high pro-activeness A.k. aggressive drive and the other person does not um What does that look like and and do you see that often in your clinical practice?
Sure sure If this makes sense maybe we look at that example of the person who's a two and the person who's an eight on the On the sex drive scale right you would say okay the person who's a two who's trying to To raise that right has a strong generative drive What does that mean the person thinks you know what I think I can do this I can set myself about this like see it will make my relationship better like I'm gonna give it a try That's a generative drive in action
The pleasure drive the person may look at that and say look maybe this can be more fun for me Right like hasn't been that fun for me if I have a low pleasure drive could I start enjoying this more and then maybe that moves up Right or maybe I have a higher pleasure drive, but it's not been gratified because I haven't been able to be open and honest like Let me see if I can make that better Then what's active like what the person is doing is then going to the aggressive or assertive
proactive right to that drive and going to the potential in that drive and mining some of what's in it like Yeah, how am I gonna do that? I'm gonna bring myself to bear
Right and like that's not an easy thing. It's not like that person then All of a sudden decides to be more sexual right there have to be a lot of communication between the two people a lot of discussion of what what setting Might be best for that what helps the person feel understood feel more comfortable like there's a lot then to do there And the person may even need to go back to the pillars right because the person may feel like whoa
I don't think I can do that right and then it is that's not good. I want to do that right What is it that I can't do there's a realization there and then maybe the person who's an eight because they're so well connected gets it Okay, you can't do that like let me support you right in whatever way what while you're figuring that out because they're both generative
They want to figure that out now the sorry to interrupt when you say you go back to the pillars. You mean go back to Exploring their structure of themselves and their function of themselves so that they can Um, for instance get some insight into what sorts of defense mechanisms might be in place right What they're paying attention to or their behaviors like maybe even health related behaviors that could be impacting their sex drive But but maybe even things that
Um, resided a deeper level the unconscious mind you know talking to somebody till they make a connection around Shining more or or some story that they've integrated into their thinking at a subconscious level right right
Just an example they see a lot right is avoidance where again not always but let's say the person with who's the two On the sex drive scale who finds like I can't do it right Well, I can't I just can't bring myself to do it right and then they go back and they explore this happens up This happens a lot where There's avoidance and then we get curious about the avoidance like because the person's like I just there's something to adjust. I don't want
To do that right? Okay, so there's avoidance. We identify avoidance We also identify that it's not healthy because the person does actually want to do that because it's it's good for their Relationship and it could be good for them too and then maybe we start looking at unconscious mind right or conscious mind right and maybe we don't find because it's it's easy now if I said oh There's a major trauma that the person hasn't processed sometimes it's that but a lot of times it's not that
You know, maybe that person just never learned to feel comfortable with sexuality or Maybe the way that they experience or are attracted to sexuality was Disparaged or denigrated right or they or they had some bad feeling about it because the society and the culture told them that or maybe
They had a couple bad experiences where they were treated in a certain way and then it's like okay that person comes by that Honestly, there's not a major trauma there in fact unfortunately There's a trauma that's almost predictable from the way our society You know has been structured so person can go look at them like right Like I never I never learned How to do this or how to be comfortable with this or I know what I learned that I'm not good at it or I learned that
No one will enjoy it with me, but but that's not true like these are these are situations not in a side of a loving relationship Right now that person is able to bring that knowledge to bear whether it came from the unconscious mind or the conscious mind And then that's how you work to start shifting things like that was then this is now right it is not then when say the person say in high school had a sexuality
That others didn't approve of and made them feel bad. Well guess what it's not then and like that's unfortunate
It's wrong. It's unjust. We're gonna honor and validate all that that is But we're also gonna look at that that was then this is now and you get to behave differently now You're an adult now and adults get to choose their relationships and you chose a good relationship right so So this is the kind of thing that can that can get that person to the point where they can go back up through now What happens at the end of it the guys are is stronger?
There's more agency. There's more of a sense of gratitude Right why because the person can attach themselves more to I'm so lucky to have this person as opposed to Damn it. I wish that person didn't have a higher sex drive right so the person and they feel better about themselves instead of What's wrong with me that I don't have a higher sex drive right? The or I said they wish the other person had a lower sex drive. I wish they had a higher sex drive
That's not grateful like I'm grateful. I am who I am and that I have any sex drive at all and I'm grateful for this other person now through Through that right that change right they can go back and better Access the assertion the the the proactive drive the aggressive drive whatever we want to call it because they've taken away They've gone and worked through the barrier to it then they're able to be a little more out of their comfort zone and the other person meets them there
Right and and they start having this this you know this healthy thing between them where the us that is them the love between them gets Better right and then where do they find themselves? That's how they get to the five which is not a compromise between eight and two that satisfies neither It is a compromise between eight and two that is way better for both and for the relationship I'm curious about
common pairings that you observe in the clinical setting um and Not to focus on the bad but If there are common pairings that rarely lead to a good outcome I think it's worth us learning about those um simply because they're common and they lead to a bad outcome and uh
A discussion of this sort could potentially help people avoid such pairings or at least Recognize that they're in such parents and I realize of course because of the way that we're framing things during this series That any time we talk about a pairing we're really talking about two maps coming together forming a new and And Someone independent map that represents the relationship I have to assume that many people in the world have maps that are very very healthy
Uh, and they're probably even those rare individuals that don't need to go into those cupboards that reside within structure or self and function or self and do any work But I'm sort of smart for those of you there just listening and not watching this I'm sort of smiling as I'm saying that because I don't actually believe any For such person exists. I think all of us even the healthiest among us could be even healthier and
It's a press more generative drive and more positivity for ourselves and for the world. Yes. We to do that work
So it's a life's no endpoint to that. Yeah, that's beautiful. We can do that forever as long as we're here And should yeah, I do believe right which is one of the reasons for having this discussion exactly I have to imagine that there are also a lot of people out there perhaps most people who Still have a lot of work to do and those words a lot perhaps are in boldface capital underline highlighted letters right And as a consequence we see relationships in the world that are not healthy
What are some of those common unhealthy pairings? I think it's worth spending at least a little bit of time on this Yeah, yeah, sure as we talk about this I think That we should make sort of somewhat simplified but hopefully helpful
Distinction right so there are people who are coming at coupling from primarily health Right and again, this isn't to criticize people who aren't coming at it from primarily health We all want to get to where we're coming at anything and everything from primarily health and there A lot of the problems are those simple things like wow. I can't believe it didn't work out I play the trumpet and he plays the clarinet
It's like no that wasn't a real set of factors. That's why it didn't work out like it's more in that realm It's not always just happen like that kind of stuff is a big factor right when we look in the other realm where where there's a significantly problematic Mental health issues right which which people come by honestly but need to face if life is gonna get better right there
There are two common paradigms there now again. There are way more than two ways this can happen But I'm gonna highlight two that we see a lot and maybe more than anything else in the in the clinical setting so the first gets called repetition compulsion right but it won't be very very clear
I do not believe that there is any such thing as a repetition compulsion a compulsion is something that one cannot control Right what's going on inside the person is very very complicated when they're making decisions that lead to repeating a cycle And those are things that can change right and do not have to be compulsive so people are often struck by Why a person is in the same bad relationship seemingly that they have always been in but with a different name on the other person
Right, I mean people will say this like it's that person's fourth abusive relationship in a row And it seems to be just the same person with a different name like that people say that a lot
They say that about themselves. They say that about others and it's very very baffling. I mean You know people have often been in my office very upset about that like realizing they're repeating and they don't know and it's frightening And you know you can get a lot of of fear and vulnerability from that But there's a way of understanding it that because our our The limbic system right the emotional parts of our minds don't care about the clock in the calendar right so trauma
Impacts we can packs the whole brain, but trauma impacts the limbic system. It creates strong negative Emotion that then stays with us regardless of time. It doesn't care about time right so imagine our person It gets in a relationship and And the relationship starts to become abusive right I mean, it's easy to say that and then move on to something else What's that like for that person? What does that feel like when that person who they may have seen as a protector of friend right it is now
cursing at them denigrating them pushing them hitting them. I mean, it's terrifying. It's horrible right so it is a deep impact the traumatic impact on the person and a lot of the time most of the time like all trauma
It triggers shame. Okay, so trauma triggers shame in us if the trauma is strong enough It changes us as we move forward in the world and then we are different in a way that makes the past very immediate in the present so what the person then is trying to do And there's been a lot of thought about this over the years and the fields to trying to understand this and I think in many ways doing a good job of Understanding this that the quote unquote repetition compulsion is
The drive and I don't mean drive like we're saying there's a push inside the person to try and make that right Right with the idea that if that person can be in that situation again Right, and I don't mean in the exact situation when someone raises a hand to them but they can navigate a relationship
Because like they thought it was a good idea the first time So they don't want to feel like that was a very bad idea So I'm going to make it right and then I'm going to be okay and I'm going to be whole right because the person is driven by fear and
Honorability and the shame of the trauma right so then they're trying to make it right because Because the limbic system doesn't care about the clock or the calendar if you can make it right now you make it right in the past Right because that system doesn't care about the passage driven by
Trauma so then the person's trying to figure out something that is different they're trying to choose that person behave in the relationship They're trying to make things different But they've selected for a dramatically high pre-test probability of the same thing happening again Which is why you know if I could count the number of times that someone has said to me
Oh, you're not going to help me especially at the beginnings of therapy. There's no way you can help me right my last Five relationships were totally terrible like I there's no way there's no hope right people have said that to me So many has last three the last five the last nine and I will say back If you tell me seven different stories of Relationships with seven pretty different people several different relationships as they evolved and the same really bad outcome I'll agree with you
But you're not going to tell me that and that's why there's hope And no one has ever Told me seven different stories right feel like wow you just can't do it right no and again even if they were seven I'm saying same thing for exaggeration right but they are but there aren't right is what is it? It's the same thing seven times That's what it is because the person is repeating and if they can understand the what and the why why are they selecting?
How are they selecting someone what's going on inside of them? We go back to the structure of self the function of self we address what is there then that absolutely And change and then what will we talk about is that person then Goes out to find another relationship even if they said they never never never would again like now they're making the decision to go out Is to say what relationship are you looking for your second?
You're the first one seven times no harm no foul But you can navigate the second because They're in a different place they're coming through agency and gratitude instead of Denigrating themselves if you're what's wrong with me? What's wrong with everybody else? I'm here right even though like some bad things have happened to me look at what I can bring myself to bear I can go out there and try and find someone I can see With clear vision now
There's agency there's gratitude and then that person can go out and find relationship number two. That's a really good one in The example you gave it's Very powerful and also very extreme, you know an abusive relationship where someone is you know sadly getting hit or you know screamed at you know
Oftentimes it seems people end up in repeated unsuccessful pairings meaning unhappy pairings of Um, maybe someone who's like very strongly assertive maybe we would say it happens a strong aggressive drive Some people might even call them a narcissist
That phrases thrown around a lot these days. I mean narcissist gaslighting like projection these phrases are thrown around all the time I think with frankly very little understanding or of what they actually mean unless they're coming from a qualified clinician Is it the case that? You know submissive people
Are drawn to narcissists are narcissists drawn to submissive people. I think these questions ringing a lot of people's minds If I could clarify something that I think I maybe could have said in a clearer way You pointed out that the example I gave was it was a very strong one or an extreme one right so As a physician, I think I naturally gravitate to the extreme circumstances because they're the ones that bring the greatest risk Right, but we're we are talking to people in those settings, right?
But but most people are not in those extreme settings Right, but that extreme serves as a model for how things that are less extreme can happen So when I think right we're sitting here talking to everyone across the spectrum and most relationships that are not going well
Thank goodness are not going to be that extreme with repeated patterns are going to be that extreme But it's just as important to pay attention to a pattern where one person Really is sort of more deferential than they would like to be to the other than it's comfortable to them And they're seeking someone ultimately who's just a little bit more assertive and you know That's not some disaster, but it cannot go well over time where that person slowly gives up say more and more of themselves
And and there can be that repeated pattern you heard people say yeah, it was a pretty good or pretty equal at the beginning But then you know, I just had like less and less of a say or every you know or you know then more and more like I just became the whole relationship, right? So
It's no less important when it's less dramatic, right? Because the relationship so goes in a wrong way When it's more dramatic, there's more risk of course, but most people are going to be in the less dramatic But but but super important Category and I think it's important to to point that to point that out too How much of what we're talking about is nested on people's Deep perhaps understandable desire to just make sure that the other person doesn't leave
I mean, I can't tell you how many times I've heard about or observed relationships that from the outside it seemed really unhealthy but It also occurred to me that people are doing things on both sides of the relationship That ensure that the other person doesn't leave so I'm not talking about a physical trapping of someone in the environment
I'm actually talking about the opposite. I'm talking about somebody going against their better judgment right and doing things for the other person or against themselves or both Perhaps even in the context of what looks like healthy family like doing an excessive amount of of
Raising of children or excessive amount of work To support the family Simply to ensure that the other person doesn't leave right right here again We can look across the spectrum right so before this you talked about relationships that can be very unhealthy like a narcissistic person And how can those relationships develop?
It's important that we touch on that in the context of this because that's sort of the extreme example So people who are narcissistic meaning a narcissistic character structure now We're getting into the realm of significant
Psychiatric problems and people who are narcissistic are exploitive right there are bottomless pit of need arising from vulnerability And yes, they can be helped and if someone out there thinks I'm narcissistic then not trying to be negative or mean Like you can get help and you can be better That's the whole point of what you and I are talking about here, right?
So people can change but but someone who's coming at the world through a narcissistic character structure is exploitive of the other And then can say survey a room and find that person who's at trauma such that person is going to be desperate not to leave a relationship And then they can exploit that person and often behave in awful ways and the other person won't leave now I'm giving an example It's not the case that case that way every you know every single time but that's the dominant
That's the dominant picture if you have a narcissistic person and who is that person more likely to pair with and then you sense the vulnerability The the desire for the other person not to leave so and that person would have to have then significant problems in themselves
Like a potentially instead of a pathological level of narcissism a pathological level of dependence for example So we're in the realm then Of of real problems and again real problems can be treated and real problems can be improved That's why we have clinical care But it can also serve as a model for seeing the ways that are that are less dramatic right so so there are Many people who through the desire for the other person not to leave and we could call that attachment and security
Right and and maybe if we leave away the stereotype version of it right the person doesn't feel securely attached to the other person Right and and somewhere inside of them They've learned that if they're more pleasing right if they give up little parts of themselves that person won't leave
Right it might be because that's why their mother didn't leave their father when they think about it It might be that's why their father left their mother because their mother wouldn't do that right whatever it may be Or it may be their own prior life experience or who knows something they read but forgot I mean usually it's something more salient
Not always but they've internalized something that leads to a compromise of the self now again all that that's not what attachment insecurity is right attachment insecurity is just feeling some insecurity about the attachment so for example, I feel attachment and security about just about everything right I've had the experience of of sudden
Very painful losses happening right so I have attachment and security in the sense that I'm worried right I get at it anxious about like people going away and and like and you know want to over control like I but I recognize this inside myself I try and do my best to say look I don't want that to make me unhealthy I want to recognize it. I want to find some happy medium where I honor that in me but don't get carried away
With it to the point where I try and over control and then I push my relationships away right so I say that because there's such a contrast between that kind of attachment insecurity which can involve over control right and the kind of attachment insecurity that can involve compromise of the self so we want to be very very careful like we want to be careful like what is a trauma bond and what does it mean we want to be careful what is attachment insecurity and what does it mean a certain kind of attachment insecurity can lead a person to make progress
of compromises of self that are not good and healthy for them. I'm curious about some of these unhealthy relationships from the other side meaning from the side of the person who is let's hope not but in some cases exploited or who's being taken advantage of or in this scenario of an narcissistic person or an abusive person is the one who's taking the abuse
often it seems the victim in that scenario will be truly stuck in that situation they can't leave for financial reasons or kids or their own internal workings their psychological machinery has them locked into that in some way and it's that locked in by psychological machinery that I'm interested in and I think a lot of people are interested in because from the outside we just look at that and say you know why doesn't the person leave why don't they just leave
but clearly there's something about that situation that quote unquote works for them and my works for them I don't mean that it's adaptive clearly it's maladaptive but that works for them. The possibility I raised earlier perhaps is relevant here you know maybe it works for them because they know that the narcissist get some sort of internal reward for engaging this kind of dynamic and therefore won't leave and the other person not leaving is of more value to them than the other person that is not going to be able to move forward and then the other person that is going to be able to move forward and that's going to be a part of it.
And I think that the person feeling safe even right so it's a trading one form of safety for another or perhaps the victim as we're calling them in this scenario is somebody who you know feels a great sense of reward by serving somebody more powerful than them.
This raises all sorts of interesting questions perhaps about power dynamics as well which I certainly have questions about but what are some examples of the internal workings of such a person that reside within those bins of structure of self or function of self that would put someone into that sort of situation and lead them to stay in that kind of situation.
Yeah well any situation like that if it's as you say working for a person which at times you know we see that from the outside because like things continue to go along and things continue to go forward but that only works for someone.
If they don't have the understanding the empowerment that we would wish for anyone and everyone to have so what is going on inside leads that person to feel a sense of an inability to change you know whether they can't see their way out of it or they they kind of could but could never navigate to it and there's there's a problem there. If that's working for someone right because we're talking about something that's exploitive right that's abusive regardless of how it's.
Abusive and I think I believe that can only happen in the context of being demoralized right or the circumstances of being so disempowered right you know someone just can't go 10 feet from home like their situations of.
Outrageous amounts of oppression right of a person where where the person just cannot choose differently and the and their situations where where we as stewards of all of us really the government may intervene for example ideally right that someone would come in and help that person but barring that kind of outlier a person would only be in that situation in the context of being demoralized and that demoralization would come from.
To low a drive for assertion being proactive aggression right that that drive its realization is to low and if we give people the understanding and we give them the help the means they don't have to stay in abusive situations like we see this in situations where our society will intervene or someone helpful intervene some person or entity will intervene and help a person. And it help that person to understand.
What's going on inside of them that leads them to feel that things can't be better they can't do better whether they're not worth better whatever that may be and help them to find the empowerment to then navigate themselves out of the situation and and here again I think it's not just agency but it's agency plus gratitude right including gratitude for having a self that could leave a situation.
When people are in situations like that you know we talk about people is beaten down you know it's it's a way to kind of capture like what I think that feels like and how much suffering there is in those situations to to to to to be in that place and to not have the agency to get out of it and the person is not feeling a sense of gratitude for self right they feel so bad about self that there's nothing to be grateful for right and there is so much to be grateful for right we can go through and.
Through any person in a situation like that and we could list wonderful things about that person adaptive things about that person kind things about that person diligent things there are things like that in every person but if the person can't see that they can't attach to that they can't have the agency and gratitude then they stay in a situation that is really defined by the agency and gratitude and therefore that aggressive assertion proactive drive being. Express that such a low level.
I can see how a healthy relationship could exist in relative isolation you know not complete isolation you know and here again I'm referring to or thinking about a romantic relationship you can see how a healthy romantic relationship could exist in relative isolation you know a few friends some contact with family members or in great connectivity with friends and family and neighbors etc.
And still be a really great romantic relationship I can also see how the sorts of relationships that we happen to be focusing on at this moment which are this unhealthy dynamics are made far worse by lack of connectivity to outsiders in fact a previous guest on this podcast was David boss who's a professor of evolutionary psychology down at the University of Texas Austin and he talked about some of his research into the dark triad these are narcissistic Maccavellian sometimes also sociopathic individuals.
How that plays out in romantic relationships and it's a terrible thing but in an important thing to understand given the unfortunate frequency that that occurs but one of the things that I remember so clearly from that discussion with David boss was that even when there isn't sociopathie or a strong desire to destroy the other that in these sorts of relationships there's often an attempt to isolate the person you know first by isolating the most important thing to do is to isolate the person.
First by isolating them from their family also from friends and co-workers but all with the goal of convincing that person that no one else would want them as a way to make them quote unquote voluntarily stay in other words to undermine their their sense of safety to ramp up their sense of anxiety except in the presence of that individual.
You know I'm remembering that now because you know as we're talking about why wouldn't somebody just leave why wouldn't they just tap into that agency and gratitude it's clear that the the oppressor in this kind of relationship has a real incentive to try and undermine agency and gratitude because of course with those they would be revealed for what they are and the person would feel.
So I'm taking us back once again to the critical need to cultivate agency and gratitude not just in unhealthy but certainly unhealthy relationships right I mean I think the principle here is that darkness always favors the oppressor. So the oppressor wishes for darkness so you want to isolate that person right because when people see that things are better for someone else they realize things can be better.
When people are told by someone that they're worthwhile or they're funny or they're pretty or they're smart or whatever the case may be they may take that inside right you know they may take inside oh maybe I am you know I'm handsome and smart maybe they start thinking about that they're very basic concepts that allow person to entertain new ways to look at themselves right so the person who's oppressing wants that person to live in darkness they don't want them to see that they're.
They don't want them to be directly told that they're better than how things are and that same darkness on the outside say the lights are out around the relationship is the goal of the oppressor on the inside again the person may know this and be doing it consciously but often this gets played out in unconscious ways like the constant denigration of someone.
This isn't saying inside gosh I'm trying to reduce their their agency their aggressive drive really down to zero right but that's what they're doing somewhere inside there's a knowing of that even if it's an unconscious knowing and then what the impact of that kind of abuse over time is a lower and lower and lower ability to bring oneself to bear less proactive aggressive assertive lower sense of agency and gratitude.
That's really the definition of being demoralized right and that kind of abuse is always promoting demoralization because demoralization is the darkness on the inside right just as envy is to right demoralization is a form of darkness on the inside envy is no less dark envy may be a lot more active right but in both cases there's no knowledge there's no growth there's no wisdom there's no learning right so they're the states of dark.
And what can happen in a way that's really so tragic to think about is you often can have an abuser an oppressor who is living in total darkness inside may living through the lens of envy and then you can have a person who is being oppressed who is being exploited who is living in darkness but they're living in the darkness of demoralization and now that's a very sad thing to say to a man.
And it's been a very, very sad thing to see right is if you do clinical psychiatry for long enough you see a lot of this and it doesn't have to be this way even the people who are pressing have it within them the majority of time to make things better and we do see that I took care of a man a long time ago who had been terribly abusive to his family and is was always unclear to me it happened years before that that he just under the
understood and again I never understood like what happened that that he he got it and the man really made change like again I don't know what the circumstance was that made that motivation him but he went back and looked at himself and he went back and looked at how his father oppressed and terrorized the family and how he just did it with automatically right because what it was rooted in his own fear of vulnerability and he's going to lose his family and not be a man anymore unless he oppresses them like he recognized all of it in him.
And he had changed it so dramatically he had removed himself from the family system and when I got to know him it was years later and he was reintegrating back in to the system because there had been such prolonged change and he had communicated to the family his understanding of self so it's not impossible even someone who is abusing oppressing coming through a narcissistic character structure right there there's no therapeutic nihilism here right things can change it.
Things can change and things can change in the oppressor which isn't excusing that right that mean a person who's doing things is morally culpable right there after criminally legally culpable so that is all true just as the ability to change is true and then the person we think about more commonly in the situation of course is the person who's being oppressed and there can be change there too but a problem is how hard it can be the impact of the isolate.
And also the death of resources to really help people like it's an actual true story of a woman who I believe with all my heart could get out of the cyclic abusive situation she was in if she had a carburetor.
She had a carburetor right she had a car the car didn't function she had a place to go right that where others wouldn't know that she was there and the problem was just a few hundred dollars to change the carburetor but there's like there's no place to go there's no resources we as a society don't help people not maybe that someone help that woman and got her carburetor and she drove away right it shows how we can bring ourselves to bear as a society to offer people help.
Which sometimes is like the lifeline the person needs and you know maybe that person really needs a safe house or something very dramatic or they need a carburetor to get away from being terrorized but a lot of times it's just community support structures right good structures around people in community communities that can offer them support in situations that maybe less dramatic opportunities for interconnection which sometimes people can find through social venues or through religiously a few
affiliated venues but the idea that community support systems on all levels make a huge difference that that's how there's another level right beyond the relationship right it's the society it's the culture right and that's how we on that next level of emergence beyond the individual relationships can foster goodness can foster health in each and every one of us.
How does some of these same dynamics play out in non-romantic relationships so for instance in the workplace I was weaned in academic laboratories so what's most familiar to me are gosh unfortunately numerous examples where people working in laboratories not the same as mine because I've been very fortunate to have amazing benevolent mentors quirky and outrageous at times but benevolent nonetheless but others around me have been in laboratories where we're going to be in the world.
We have been in laboratories where for instance the workload was just ridiculously high like the demand far exceeded what any person could do and if somebody had God forbid a cold or children like it was near impossible to impossible that they could meet the standard there or stress dynamics you know pressure cooker dynamics that
made it what anyone would call a toxic environment you see this also in law firms you see it in companies you see it in families you see it in friendship circles right I mean how many movies are about teens pressing one another through bullying and ridicule and and practical jokes that are anything but funny right that are downright destructive okay and on and on and so often the victims in these cases if it's not a Hollywood movie
feel as if that's their only choice because to leave is to essentially have no other options right it's not that that's the only option is to stay it's that to leave is essentially to leave science because these people in positions of power have the louder voice they have the megaphone they write the letters a recommendation the law firms people talk
in as I you know kind of spool this out in a long form question I'm realizing I can't think of a single exception like as long as there are going to be people interacting and people talking about their interactions and people in positions of power this sort of dynamic is going to take place
right absolutely anytime you have a closed system without accountability you just rolling the dice for that kind of oppression right we need accountability you think about theoretically what should have happened there right there should be higher order accountability right whether it's in a company or university or
wherever it may be there should be higher order accountability that is reasonable and rational so it's not then acting in a top down way that would be over controlling right telling exactly what you can't say or what you can't can't do and there's there's too much rigidity that can be enacted top down but the problem runs both ways if there's no accountability from the bottom up then that person is just simply
stuck right why because the system we've put into place has failed right and this is where we're talking now about not just individual relationship with two people relationships but now we start talking about systems of people and systems of people are another level of emergence with
with a personality so to speak in environment all their own you can know everything there is to know about each person in the system you don't know about the system but what you do know is that accountability is necessary I mean probably if we add it up all the examples in history you know we'd we'd have to talk about them over a thousand years I mean how many examples do we have that close systems without accountability are just rolling the dice they breed
oppression you know this is this is true and I've been at several different places so I'm not trying to implicate is any one place versus another but I was part of a medical treatment team so this is a hierarchical medical treatment team of maybe seven people will give her take one penny upon the circumstances where there was physical abuse going on in the treatment team
this is true and I'm not I'm not saying this in some exaggerated manner where somebody brushed up too close to someone and they slipped no hurting someone on the treatment team right two different people who are being hurt by someone senior so so this is is it a major university in a clinical setting right and it's not again that's not that it's not like that's the be all an end
though but you think about the alleged the sophistication of the people in the system the alleged empowerment of the people in the situation which did not stop to that so we need to have accountability the accountability has to be reasonable it doesn't mean over control but it doesn't mean under control either and if that person is being overworked as you describe with no way of
winning or harmed on a you know on a medical team and there's no way that that that person can change that the system has failed that person and fail them dramatically and guess who suffers everyone does right that person suffers right and the science that's being done or the medical care that's being provided is important to all of us anyone could be the patient
who is being taken care of by the team where one person is hurting a couple of the others you think that medical care is going to be optimized right is the science going to be optimized that we're utilizing to try and make our lives better live longer be in less pain
what's happening there is envy that person who's oppressing other people is driven by envy whether it's a narcissistic character structure that acts almost exclusively through envy or it's envy that is in this person's life in this way or not not another way does it matter right what's going on there is envy and envy is nothing but destructive right the generative drive is nothing but productive envy is nothing but destructive
could you remind for people that perhaps may not have heard episodes one and two yet that envy is perhaps not just a desire to be like somebody else that envy in the context that we're discussing here is something quite possibly different and there's a varying lexicon which is right is important to define it because I think people learn it in different ways I've heard it talked about in different ways so
to define that there's a difference between jealousy and envy and again we could choose different words but this is the way I learned it that's been most impactful where jealousy is is benign right it's the idea that if I see that you have something that I don't then I think oh well maybe I could work harder and get that thing right or if I can't have that thing like maybe it's a person is younger right okay can't make myself younger and I can think okay like you know through lens of gratitude was is that the only thing about me right
I can't think of anything good about myself right other than maybe I could be younger I mean if if you come at that through the lens of health it's like it's okay right it can serve to motivate people to like try harder work harder take a look at themselves and be more accepting of who they are and what there's circumstances in life and what kind of control they can enact and what kind they can't it's okay right envy is different right envy comes at that time and we can't
come at that problem from the perspective that bringing down the other person right is just as effective as bringing up the self that's why envy is destructive so someone who might see another person and they envy them their youth right they envy they want that and they want to bring that person down right
because I can't make myself younger but then they was I can't make that person older either but they can do other things to them right they can sexually harass them maybe they can make terrible jokes that are really insulting and humiliating maybe right there all sorts of things a person can do to bring down someone else the an action of envy is destructive and I truly believe this that people who who come
at the world very strongly through envy by enlarge in narcissistic character structure this is a small percentage of the population but that small percentage does most of the damage on earth right it's a strong thing to say but when I think about you know studying political science and thinking about history and learning medicine and learning about psychiatry and sociology and really trying to look at the world and and and thinking what what drives
a person on a medical team who's gotten to be a senior physician to physically hurt doctors lower on the hierarchy envy. That person feels terrible about themselves and then it's being destructive to those people same thing that's the same thing is that work in the lab the same thing is at work when people start wars of destruction that just simply harm other people and we can see no other sense of it that from the individual setting all the way up to the world setting we
setting, we see the destruction of envy, and we also see it inside of us. Because a person who's enacting envy in the world around them is never... There's no chance of happiness. Hence the idea of a bottomless pit, whatever you get. Let's say an envious person who wants more money. I want to have more money than anybody. Everyone to have less money than me. So then they come at the world through the lens of greed. When they get more money, how long does that make them happy?
This doesn't mean money is bad or having money is bad. It just means if you're coming at the world through the lens of envy, and that lens is specifically focused on money, then you'll be a greedy person who is never satisfied even if you have $10 trillion. So it's never good. It takes away from that person any possibility of happiness. And if you see people, work with people with the narcissistic character structure, there can be a sense of a very brief happiness in the moment.
I'm happy because I realize I have something someone else doesn't. I'm happy because I'm thinking of myself. And even though I feel very insecure and vulnerable inside, I have a whole set of defense mechanisms that let me turn those tables around and then feel good about myself in a way that places me above others. Whatever is going on in that person, it may bring some very brief gratification in the moment, but that's not happy. And it's hence the need for the gratification over and over.
And over again, narcissistic people are the least secure, most different people on Earth. They just have a phenomenally healthy defensive structure that comes about in order to try and
protect them, that leads them to go to the opposite. Some of what's called a reaction formation, going to the very opposite denial, avoid insrationalization projection, very unhealthy defenses, that then leads that person to protect themselves from any help while they are frantically trying to gain some goodness that makes them feel good for a split second and then disappears. Forever, hence the tremendous predilection for destruction.
How do you and how should we think about power dynamics in relationships? Perhaps starting with romantic relationships? I've heard it said before that there's always power dynamics in relationships of all kinds. I don't know if that's true or not, but I've heard that. And I've also heard that that's particularly salient in romantic relationships. Independent of whether or not it's a homosexual or heterosexual relationship that there's always
to some extent or another one leader and one follower. This is a interesting, perhaps a controversial idea, but I've heard it enough times that I want to know more about it. Sure. So power dynamics are very important, but also something we tend to be so over-reductionist about. I mean, this idea I think that there's always a leader and there's always a follower. Every single relationship, that's true on balance. We tend to be so reductionist.
And then what we do is we miss the real power dynamics that are going on. Just like I said in a previous episode that I think my math minor has helped me the most for all of life. I think a power dynamics course that I took as an undergraduate in political science has helped me the most as a psychiatrist took it long before medical school because that class
taught me so much about power dynamics. I thought it was going to be about overt power, who has power over whom and tells whom to do what, but what I learned is so much of power dynamics are covert. They're under the surface. For example, they're the things that are not said. Something that was called at the time, at least, the issue of the non-issue. Where there's an issue between two people like this person never takes out the garbage.
That person always takes out the garbage. That person is resentful about it. Both of them know, but the person who always does it can't say so. Because if they say so, the first person will punish them in some other way. By not taking out the garbage, then the place smells. That person goes to work and the person who's at home has to take it out. That's one example of the issue of the non-issue. Other examples are where someone is looking and smiling and being really nice to someone
who they know is going to physically harm them. If they bring to light, that they're actually not happy and don't feel good about that person. From the dramatic to the non-dramatic, un-stated power dynamics are going on all over the place. They're in every single relationship. Less of a person is in a relationship with someone else and they're both comatose. I guess only one of them has to be comatose. But they're power dynamics going on. But it doesn't mean that they're unhealthy.
Because there are always power dynamics. So then what are we looking for? Again, there are a lot of things we could look for, but we could talk about really two primary things. One is look for the non-obvious and two is the give and take. So the first, even in our own relationships, because it's interesting how many people will say, talk about the power dynamics in their relationship. They're not always saying, here are the power dynamics in my relationship, but they're telling me about them.
And they're telling me about the things that are overt. Now, somewhere inside of them, they know that they can't really raise issue A, B, or C, or there'll be some retribution, whether it's small or large, or they might even know everything's okay and that person is happy, but they know I'm not giving them room to say that
they're not happy. And that could just mean if they say they're not happy, then I'll come home a couple hours late the next day and that person will feel some attachment and security because of that. And you know, there are also ways this can play out, but since so much of power dynamics are unstated or covert, kind of like the iceberg of conscious and unconscious. There's an iceberg
of power dynamics. So to think about, including in one's own relationships, whether it's a neighbor, it's a friend, it's a work relationship, or most charged, it's romance, what's really going on between us? What's really going on between us? I'm not looking to tell myself lies, right? I know that I may not be able to understand all of it, but let me stop and think about it.
And people, if you ask people to stop and do that, they can say, yeah, it's really not okay, or you know, because sometimes they don't know that it's there or they don't want to know that it's there and the therapy work is trying to guide them to there's a immense power disparity, maybe in the relationship when they're presenting. No, everything is equals a good supportive relationship. You're that a lot. And of course, it's not always that there's something bad
under the surface, but a lot of times there is. And even something mildly bad is not okay, and can cause problems. And sometimes there's something very bad. So look for the non-obvious. And then the second is that give and take is a very good sign of health. It is a very good sign of health. So if a person can kind of see that there is give and take, and it might be about
something as simple as like who chooses where we go to dinner. Okay, you know, sometimes one, sometimes the other depends who has a stronger feeling or it may be that person always decides where we go to dinner, but the other person's okay with it, right? And that person always decides what movie they want, the other person, right? So the idea that there's give and take and then in periods of time where one person may be in a more difficult place. One person has a significant
loss, right? Or an injury or an illness, then you see that that shifts a little bit. One person is giving more, right? But then ultimately the idea is that's from the outside, right? If one person is giving more to the other, there's a generosity of spirit in both the giving and the accepting, right? That leads them to then be stronger together. So even when people say, well, they're imbalances. In some way, if you just look at what's going on day to day, but in a healthy relationship
with high generative drive, the periods of imbalance strengthen the relationship. Right? You see this with friends where two people are a pretty equal friendship and then like one person has something difficult happens and the other person is there for them. What's true on the other side of that? They're better friends, right? And it's also why we often want to be interconnected when we're healthy. What is something bad happens to both of them? Right? It's good to be interconnected
and friends and family can be supportive to us. So the idea that give and take is healthy, I think, is very central. So just looking for evidence. It's often if I don't understand like what's going on in the relationship. Maybe it's early in the therapy or it's just been kind of opaque or I can't figure it out. I'm looking for is there a give and take because then I'm going to think, okay, more likely than not things are healthy. If I see an imbalance whether the person knows it or not,
I'm thinking more likely than not it's unhealthy. And then they're just clues along the pathway of my efforts to understand. The non-obvious piece is really intriguing as is the give and take. And I really appreciate that you brought up the give and take because that's a very concrete place that we can all look and ask ourselves, even if people are into romantic relationships. What is the give
and take in a given friendship? And as you mentioned earlier, it doesn't have to be scripted one for one, one for one. Maybe it bounces out over time or maybe it doesn't. I mean, I've had friendships that have lasted many decades even where I can honestly say I'm always the person to reach out to the other person. But when they connect, they connect with such a depth of attention that I don't feel any deprivation whatsoever. In fact, I don't think I've ever considered that I'm the person
that always reaches out until today. And so it doesn't bother me whatsoever. I feel infinitely rewarded in the relationship. Like it's generative. It feels generative. It doesn't have to be equal. However, one wants to define equal, but it has to be mutual. You're getting, you know, you're feeling goodness from the relationship. So is the other person. Okay. That's good. That's coming from that high generative place. And when we really, let's say we push that concept forward to where we
want to be living, not some pie in the sky, right? But agency and gratitude as verbs, the generative drive is very strongly expressed. And the other drives are subserving the generative drive. Then we get to the place where we really see it is true that it is better to give than to receive. The happiest people I see are the people who are giving. Now, of course, it feels great to receive. Right? But it feels better to give because there's a goodness in the self, in the giving. And I remember
seeing this as a child and being too young to understand it, but I was a little kid. I liked getting things, right? And as a little kid, I liked getting things more than I liked giving. Like, that's okay when you're a little kid. But what I did observe is that my maternal grandmother who is very sweet and loving and caring, she loved giving, right? You give her presence and we did. And she liked,
she really liked getting presents. She loved giving, right? There was an excess of goodness. And then as I got older and I learned more like who she had been in the community and how she had been to people. And I could see and now through the lens that there was such goodness in her. I think she's, you know, for me, she's the shining model of goodness that I internalize as I aspire to be better. So then I think I want to be like that. I am more generative as I try and think more about
giving than receiving. It's not trying to say I'm some noble person or I'm being ascetic. I'm think that's a good way for us all to feel, right? Or someone a very, very successful person that I consult to this in my life, who has talked about how he always makes inside of himself the best understanding of what's going on between him and another person, whether it's a very big financial deal or it's about power or it's personal and then gives a little bit. Always, where have we
ended up? Let me give a little bit, right? And there's a person who's very, very successful, very, very happy, right? But I would argue the goodness in him is why he's successful and happy. It's not that he's successful and therefore he's happy, right? It's what's inside of him that fosters both of those good things and he could be just as happy without the big success. Maybe he wouldn't, maybe he wasn't minded to do that and he grows a nice garden. He could be equally happy,
but the point is the goodness in self to be able to do that, right? To feel good about doing that. I feel better about giving that than I would have, receiving that. That's pretty stark, right? It's something given to the other that I would have gotten right now and we're in maybe an negotiation to give it feels better than to have it. I'm sure there are many people thinking about individuals who are highly successful, who are not givers, who are takers. I do think those
examples of takers as I'm calling them. I'm grab a lot of attention, but I know at least within science and the other domains of life I've been in that there are far more successful people who are also givers, even to a great extent. Of course, that doesn't mean that they're giving to the point of an inability to give further or to take care of themselves. The giving is part of taking care of themselves, but it's part of this generative cycle. It's not one thing. It's not a
tip for tap. It's part of something that makes them feel good, makes others feel good. It's anti-transactional. As we're talking about the self and into relations between selves in these different relationship contexts today, this word transactional keeps coming to mind. What I'm so aware of as you're describing what healthy selves and healthy relationships look like is that it runs counter. It's pretty much everything that I've heard and that we hear in the world
about relationships and about the relationship to self, meaning it's not transactional. It's really about a cycle. We're using this word generative over and over in its specific context today. I don't want to rob that word for a different purpose, but I'm imagining a upward spiral in my mind or perhaps something that's really like a circle of life that just keeps growing bigger and bigger and bigger. Maybe we could talk a little bit about this notion of relationships being
transactional. It's such a loaded word, but I have a close friend who's married with more than a few children who told me the other day, I realized that it's all transactional. They're extracting from me and I'm extracting from them and it's benevolent because it's all good. This is really dreadful. No one wants to think that the closest relationships in their lives
are transactional. He was coming to that conclusion. I disagreed with him and I don't know where that all sits for him right now, but maybe we could talk about the transactional versus non-transactional aspects of relationship because we all want things. That's perfectly healthy, I believe. We all experience disappointment and pleasure and relief and sometimes major disappointment, pleasure, relief, etc. But what is the role of transaction in relationships? How does
psychiatry, how do you and how should we think about that? We often get confused because there are transactions in every relationship, but that does not mean that every relationship is transactional. If we think about what transactions are, we can think of the stereotypical way. It can also be, here's the transaction, I'll do the dishes and you wash the clothes. Or for instance, I'll make the money and the other person will raise the children.
There are transactions, but that does not mean that the be-all and end-all of it are sort of hard-hearted, calculated transactions and transactions also occur in less obvious but equally important ways. Another way that transactions occur is, right now, I'm putting something out there, I'm saying something. Then at a point I stop and I am waiting for you to put something out there. Then I take in what you said. We're doing something
that in that sense is transactional. I'm waiting for you to give me something. I take it in, I process it, I give something back out to you. But that's not the be-all and end-all of it. So there are transactions whether it's the, who's going to wash the dishes, who's going to do the clothes or what do I put out there that you take in and what do you put out there that I take in that there is something greater than something beyond the transactional. There is
some controversy to this. I thought that the historical thought in the field that there are just aggressive and pleasure drives in us and that everything is transactional. Again, we don't really have a way of disproving that. There's not going to be some equation that disproves that. But I think it's entirely disproven by human experience. We could talk about
an infant number of resources to consider this. Just imagine the writings of Victor Frankl and the writings and the theories around human interactions and psychological theories that have come of it to think that everything is just transactional. It's a denial of the humaneness in all of us that I think he just brought to the fore so strongly. But again, there could be nearly infinite infinite resources throughout human history that say, hey, we're not entirely transactional. It's
not just aggression and pleasure, but there's something more going on here. There's learning that feels good for the sake of learning. There's kindness that feels good for the sake of kindness. There's giving that feels good because giving feels good. Like, this is going on in us. It's going on when we're like loving children, for example, or loving animals. There's something inside of us that's not just transactional. And that's why I think what we're talking about is if it's truth
that should all hang together, right? It must all hang together. And this is why there's an us over top of each individual that's in a relationship. This is why you can know everything about me. You can know everything about you and you can know nothing about our friendship. Absolutely nothing. Because it's something different. And if it were all just transactional, there would be nothing different. And I think our experience as human beings. I know that to be true because
I just know that I don't always feel selfish about things. Maybe sometimes I do and I do something nice because it'll make me look good. We're all human. But I know that there's good feeling from others towards me at times. It's just about the good feeling. I know that there's that from me towards others. So that tells us, yes, there is something other than just the eye. There is the we of diads, right? Of relationships. And no matter whether they're work, family, friendship,
relationship, and then they're the levels beyond that that are larger weas, right? The we of groups. So if I understand correctly, it can be the case that one person makes the majority or all of the income for a family, the other person raises the children, takes care of the majority of the home. And of course, there is a transaction there, a set of transactions. But that it's in service
to something larger that really isn't transactional. I'm just dealing your words here. But if I were to expand on that just to make sure I understand that the non-transactional thing that emerges from that is generative because it's a family, right? It's a family that everyone can extract growth and pleasure and meaning from. And just because the roles are divided as such, it doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship is defined as transactional in the sense that it's less than it could be.
Right. Right. Right. If you think about what's really being transacted. So let's say one person is out in the world and is making an income. The other person is taking care of the family and taking care of the home. What's being transacted? Well, the person who's making the money is sharing the money, right? In that sense, transacting some of the money to the other person. Like you get to have some of it too. You get to have some of the benefit from it. And the person who is at home
who's taking care of the family and the home, saying you get to have some of that too, right? You get to come here. The children are taking care of right? The home is taking care. So both are transactions, something to the other, right? I mean, that's truth of it, right? If you look at what's really going on there, when a person is getting benefit of money, they didn't earn, the other person is getting benefits, they have child care, they didn't do or pay for, right? So hang for
child care, they're sharing resources, right? So yes, that's true. But is that it? I mean, are these two robots? Right. One is the money making robot and the other is the child care robot. Like that's not what's going on, right? The way we want to envision that, if we have two healthy people with generative drives is they love one another. They're creating something better than they could create on their own. In fact, they've created children, right? They've created a home together,
and they're nurturing that family together. That is generative. And because it's generative, it can also be flexible. So let's say the person who's at home says, I need to do some things outside of the house, right? Or let's say the person who's out working thinks, I feel overwhelmed, and I like to switch to a better job, but that jobs half time, I want to be, I could be half in the
house, right? Like this is where people can come together, right? In the same way we talked about the two and an eight on the sex drive or sexuality scale, where people then can find compromises, right? And if one really wants to stay out of the home all the time, but the person in the home wants to leave the home, well, they find a way that that works, right? Because they're care for one or another, the generative spirit that is in them individually and as a couple, let's them nurture
that. And one isn't interested in oppressing the other. I'm not going to leave my job. You stay at home or I'm staying at home, you stay out there. It's like, well, let's think about things. Let's communicate, right? That's how the generative drive not only, like, makes that awesome, right? Like, the five isn't the compromised position between the eight and the two. The five is awesome, right? Here, the transactional aspects are awesome because of the generative aspects of what comes of it
far more than either of those people could make on their own. I mean, home and say, it's not too obvious, maybe if one makes X amount of dollars, each could make half X. That's not what we're talking about, neither of them can create that family on their own. It seems that so much of what we're talking about relies on, you know, the hallmarks that we always hear are make up good relationships of all
kinds, romantic and otherwise. Like things like communication, listening, generosity, okay, all the stuff that we all know that we should bring to relationship and hopefully are getting from relationships. And that if we're not, that we should probably request from others in, you know, polite ways, right? Can I say, can I, can I say, I have one word for that. Kindergarten, right? Think about that. We learn that in kindergarten and what you're describing is so simple,
right? That's why it's so high up on the, this is what the guy's are pushing up. It's high up from the two pillars, right? Because what you're talking about is simple generosity of spirit, giving rather than taking, right? Being kind to others, letting things go, feeling good about yourself, or even if you fall down, right? We learn this in kindergarten. So we must somewhere inside of us really value it, right? But then we let it go. We make things overly complex. And, you know, this,
this idea that in many ways we should go back to kindergarten, right? Because there's a purity there, right? Children and age where, you know, they can learn and then we bring a nice kind of learning to them and a nurturing to them. And we can bring it to ourselves too so that we simplify that which has become overly complex, right? We simplify because trauma makes complexity. Having to just make one's way in the world is complicated, right? So things that more and more
complicated and we lose the simple roots of goodness or the goodness of simplicity, right? And we can come back to that. So I couldn't resist when he said, oh, these are kind of simple, these basic things, right? Like, right? That's the point of it because that's where agency and gratitude and the generative drive, that's where they live in the simplicity.
Glad you mentioned kindergarten. It brought me back to images of kindergarten where, yeah, as far as I can remember now, there are all the critical components of a great generative environment, you know, adults who really cared about us. Fortunately, there were snack time with oranges or nourishing food. There was nap time in the afternoon like these things are all things. You got some exercise, explore, get a guinea pig home on the weekends. Yeah, this guinea pig.
I think they actually, I think there were several guinea pigs, but they kept trying to convince us it was the same guinea pig because they would allow one family to take home the guinea pig each weekend. And sometimes I think it didn't work out quite so well. But anyway, the guinea pig was a pervasive feature. So you learn to take care of things. And in all seriousness, now that I step back from it, there's nothing more generative, it seems, than the kindergarten classroom environment.
Or we should say a healthy kindergarten classroom environment. It's all about support of others. And if we go to the pillars, the structure of self and the function of self, I mean, surely there's a lot going on at home too. But think about like what salient, it's learning messages of self confidence, like instilling those, it's behaviors that are based on strivings
and hopefulness. It's all the good things. Yes. All the good things. And so as I was thinking about communication and all these good things that clearly kindergarten is a wonderful template for in all seriousness, I think it's an amazing template. I'm thinking about what gets in the way. And of course, trauma can get in the way. And we should talk about that more. But it seems to me that one of the things that gets in the way of asking for what we want, of hearing requests of us
in the way that is going to bring about the most generative goodness is anxiety. It's like, you know, you're tired from a long day. And someone mentions like, you know, we have to take the trash
out, you know, like I was at work all day, like, you know, that kind of thing. Or earlier, talking about the issue of the non-issue, terms of power dynamics, you know, that, well, let's just say I've had the experience before in relationship with feeling like if I make a request or I have a quote unquote complaint about something that the other person is going to be so upset about the fact that they didn't do something well, that's going to be three days of just like diminished
happiness for everybody. So I just assume like not deal with it, right? So when we hear the word anxiety, I think we often about the person like quaking about, you know, public speaking or like getting the circuits in the brain hijacked that we're only designed for saber tooth tigers. But, you know, anxiety seems to serve both a very important functional role in modern life that has
nothing to do with physical threat. But it also seems to be the feature that if not kept in check, if we can't regulate our own anxiety, I'm realizing there's no way that we're going to be in a position to ask for what we need and what we want to hear what's needed of us and what others want. In other words, anxiety seems like a major barrier to the generative drive. Mm-hmm. I think the place to start is if you show me a person who has no anxiety, I'll show you a
mannequin, right? We all have anxiety in us. Remember, it's just a word, right? What are we getting at? We're getting at a sense of tension, right? A sense of disquiet inside of us that we would like to solve, we would like to ease if we could. It is not helpful or healthy if we have very, very low levels of that, right? Because then our strivings are certainly going to suffer, right? There's not a lot
of motivation to go make change in the world, change in our lives, right? So if we have too little of that tension, that doesn't go well and could that maps to a low assertiveness, aggression, proactive drive, there are other ways that can show itself, but it maps very clearly, I think, to that. And that's not good for us. On the other end of the spectrum, we're much more concerned with the other end of the spectrum because a lot of anxiety feels very, very bad and it feels very bad right
now, right? So our high levels of anxiety, they narrow our cognitive spectrum, they narrow our ability to think about what's going on around us, to think about ourselves. So the idea with anxiety is to recognize, hey, we all have it and we can call it anxiety, we can call it tension, we can call whatever we want to, but we want that to be in a healthy place, right? Which comes, of course, back to the self, that if my levels of anxiety are very high and therefore it's causing problems
in my relationship, like maybe I'm always asking my partner if we're okay, right? That happens a lot. Like are we okay? Are you happy? Right? Because there's a lot of anxiety in me. Like the first place it goes to look at myself. So we could say, oh, I have attachment and security. That's just
stating the obvious, right? Or sorry to interrupt, but a very common one nowadays that I think is new in the course of human history is, you know, the reaching, the tugging the line phenomenon, you text somebody, you're thinking about them, you don't hear back and then attention starts to mount. And then depending on the context, you may either be concerned about the person or even suspicious about what the person is up to. I mean, here, it's very contextual, right? And it depends on the
history of both individuals and that relationship. But then the person will reach back eventually and it either will bring relief or relief with some resent, like where were you? What happened? You know, this is very, very common. It's so much so in fact that I've come to learn and talking to others. And this is the classic, you know, I have a friend who, but really others who are in
the landscape of looking for relationship. And there are people, I know well, who go through a lot of effort to set an intermittent schedule of response, like to not give the other person the sense that they always respond with short latency because indeed, sometimes they will be able to do that and sometimes they won't. What they're basically trying to do is make sure that the person doesn't, they're actually trying to take care of the other person in addition to themselves.
Because I think we come to expect a certain latency of response with certain individuals. And if we don't hear back with that particular latency of response, our own anxiety starts to pick up and it can be quite damaging to a relationship in particular to the generative drives within us. Because in that time that we're stressed, we're not tending to other things, including things
that we could do for the relationship that we're so worried about. It's a famous scene in Swingers, right, where the person leaves a message and then, you know, and lives the whole relationship in his own mind and breaks up with the person and they never actually spoke, right? That there's the anxiety run wild. And of course, I remember that was very, very popular when
that came out. Why? Because it resonated. We know with the insecurities we feel and now, with the ability to feel those insecurities in a much more immediate way, that person didn't text me back, right? There's a lot more of that inside of us, which really points to if you're able to identify that you're that you're anxious, too anxious for comfort, which again, if one looks inside, or even listens, maybe to what others have said or reflected, like there's a lot of data, especially
in respect to be able to identify that, right? The next question is always why, right? Let's go look at that. Maybe that person has been anxious their whole life, right? Maybe they just have run tense all the time. You know what? Sometimes a little bit of medicine that kind of just pulls that down, person can take that for 50 years. Life is better. There's no side effects. Like so sometimes like that might be the case, right? Sometimes the person's anxiety kind of grew throughout childhood
and maybe that's because there were difficult things or traumatic things that happened. Maybe there was nothing like that, but maybe the person was very good at engaging in the world and then felt more and more pressures upon themselves and no one ever did anything wrong and they've only been rewarded, right? But regardless, look at the anxiety in yourself. Go back to those pillars, right? And one might discover, for example, maybe the anxiety I'm feeling is attributable to the
other person. Am I feeling anxious because I'm intimidated? Am I feeling anxious because I know that if I don't behave in a certain way, no, the next time there's a group meeting, there'll be some snarky joke made about me. So anxiety sometimes it's the self. Sometimes it's got a lot of biological components. Sometimes it's got a lot of psychological components. Sometimes both, right? Sometimes it's
the environment. Sometimes it's the other, right? The other person. So look at why? Because that's how we learn, right? Like what is going on inside of me? Where is that level of anxiety? How does it not feel comfortable? Like what actually is it? How is it changing? How on behaving? How might it be changing? How am I responding to it? So what are we doing? We're going back to to those look in those
10 cabinets and figure out why which we can do, right? The vast majority of times between ourselves and the use of others, either professionally or non-professionally, we can go understand the anxiety or the lack of anxiety. Why am I not so motivated? Right? I mean, that's a case with a lot of people who feel demoralized. They don't feel they can get anywhere in the world, right? The
world's a bad place and how are you going to make your way in the world? And they start feeling nihilistic or they feel like there's the eight balls against them, even in a generational capacity, right? And now they feel demoralized and the tension inside is soothed by things. So maybe that's the person who's overusing the thing that soothes, right? So they could go look at, like I always kind of motivated and did well in sports or the well in this was interested in that, right? What's
going on? That's how a person could identify, for example, being demoralized. So that process of inquiry gives us the information that we can use in the service of change and the change will not achieve 100% of the time. The change for the better is predictable if it's arising from a place of understanding. I'm very curious about frames of mind in relationship. In particular, how being in our own experience, say anxious because someone hasn't responded to us and really paying attention
to the anxiety and drilling into it and asking ourselves, you know, why am I anxious? And do I deserve to be anxious? Is it about me? Is it about them? Whether or not that's a valid pursuit or whether or not focusing on the other person and trying to imagine, you know, like what's going on in their head that they might be doing this or that they seem to do something repeatedly? This, of course, relates to much more than just the scenario of waiting for a text message and feeling anxious.
I mean, I think so much of how we come into relationships of all kinds, you know, romantic, certainly, but family relationships are, you know, in and around the tendency to switch back and forth, sometimes seemingly at random between our own experience and what am I feeling? What am I experiencing? And then thinking about the other, like what is what are they thinking? What are they experiencing?
I mean, this is everything to do with human dynamics, right? I would think that it's near impossible for the typical person to just live life through their own frame and lens and never pay attention at all to what others might be thinking. Even, for instance, the most exploitive extractive narcissist sociopath presumably is thinking about, you know, who in the room is going to be their
target because of how that person might be feeling. And of course, on the benevolent side, people who want to do positive, generative things in the world are probably thinking about, you know, who do align with, who has common goals that they might want to work with or be with romantically that could help them and the other person generate. So what is this thing that we do? What is it called and how does it work to place ourselves in the mind of others?
And what roles does it serve and what goals does it undercut when we do this? Well, so I think the first thing to say is that everything follows the same simple pattern, right? So I start with thinking about me, right? If I'm anxious, why am I anxious? What's going on inside of me? I think about you, are you anxious too? Or maybe I'm not anxious, but I notice that you are, right? So there's the thought about the eye because I can't think in a clear headed way about you
unless I've thought about me, right? Because if I'm really, really, really anxious, then how am I supposed to understand and try and get an idea of where you're at, right? So then where do we arrive? We arrive at the magic bridge of the us, right? That's what connects us, whether the us is a friendship, it's a professional relationship, it's romance, right? There's the bridge of the us because it's not
just how we're when am I anxious, how are you anxious? What are things like when we're together? Maybe that maybe I'm anxious when we're together and what's that tension about? You're anxious when we're together and maybe that's for reasons we could talk about and make less. Maybe there's some insecurity in one of us, or maybe the other person is behaving in a certain way that's not making the second person feel good, right? We can then come together and see how does the us impact
the level of anxiety and how do we then take away from the us being stronger? So think about we talked about the trauma bond. Trauma bond can be enacted in a negative way, it can be enacted in a positive way and those two people who can go to the museum together who can't go to the museum separately, right? They're living in the magic bridge of the us, right? They're both at the museum but neither can go to the museum, right? Neither can go to the museum but both can go to the museum
and then they take away stronger selves from that, right? That's a reinforcing experience. It's positive, right? It builds the generative drive, it builds confidence, right? The person went, they were assertive and that was gratified in a good way and they felt pleasure, right? So when we look at the us, it is about the us in the moment, right? But it is also about how two people are
impacting one another in the rest of their lives. And this, of course, this is more important to the closer the relationship, like this is very important, for example, in close friendships or family relationships. And I think this is of extreme importance in relationships, right? These are the two people who presumably are the closest to one another on earth. So a shared us that promotes understanding and bolsters a sense of agency and gratitude and bolsters the generative drive,
like that's great for both people when they're not in the us. When one goes one way and one goes the other because that happens all the time in relationships too, right? If you go to work at different places or, you know, we bolster ourselves outside of relationships if we see what the magic bridge of the relationship can be. So we can look there for problems like, why am I anxious? Why are you anxious? Why are we anxious? Why are you only anxious when we're we and not, you know, we can
look over all that and we should, right? But we can also even more powerfully look for the good there, right? How can our shared bond, whatever it may be, be better for both of us. And what's stronger incentive could there be than to do that in relationships, right? Romantic relationships, the ones that are closest to us, if they're not romantic, they could be friendships. Whatever our closest relationships are, they're the most important vehicles. So to speak, to better health and
happiness, to getting to that place of peace and contentment and delight, right? The us is very, very powerful. In fact, even more more powerful than the I and the you. When thinking about the us and trying to understand why somebody that we know and are in relationship with is behaving the way they are or might be feeling or claiming they feel the way that they are, how useful do you think it is for us to put ourselves in their shoes? You know, I couldn't think of all sorts of
ways in which this could be beneficial. I can also think of all sorts of ways in which it would be focusing off the self and our own experience in ways that might be defensive of weight, and so, you know, or denial, right? I'll come clean. I mean, there've been plenty of times in relationship where I get fixated on why someone is the way they are, the haved the way they did. And more often
than not by taking a step back and thinking about why my reaction to that is the way it is. I don't solve the quote unquote problem, but I get a lot further along in terms of quelling my own anxiety and finding a path forward. Right. Right. Right. Well, mentalization, which is the ability to discern feeling states, intention states, in self and others, but now we're looking for others, right? So the ability to understand feeling states. What's going
on inside of you? Intention. What are your intentions? Right. That should only be good. Right. Because because if we're seeing it through a clear lens, meaning a lens that's not biased by some problem, like a defense mechanism of rationalization, for example, or projection, right? If we're seeing clearly, we're learning about the other. Right. And the learning is never bad, right? Knowledge truth
is good. So if we learn about the other by, in that sense, putting ourselves in their shoes, then we gain information, but it's the health in us that is so crucial to what we do with that information, right? So one person could say put, put themselves in the other person's shoes and and then you say, okay, that person I can see, that person's responding and it's say, say,
pretty calm, pretty calm about something. Right. And maybe that's just a good thing. Maybe there's some contention going on and that person's maintaining their cool and that person's going to be really helpful in navigating an argument or a disagreement to like some, some like really positive endpoint.
Right. So if a person sees clearly, like I see, okay, I see that you're, I can see that you're calm and I also see that you're trying to figure things out and the things that you're saying are sort of positive, you're disagreeing with me, but, but you don't seem to mean ill, right? Then I can see, you know what I think your calm is good, right? Because I'm getting a little bit upset and you're not. So you, so, and I see that there's a benevolence in you. So maybe you'll guide us to the
place that maybe I can't, right? But think about if there's not a clear lens inside of me, right? If I have a defense system that leads me to externalize responsibility, that leads me to projector, leads me to all sorts of things that are not healthy, now I might think, well, you're calm because you used to don't care about me, right? I mean, so the thing with the same exact thing, right? Now, in the example we're giving the person in your position is like being really benign and benevolent,
but it happens all the time where that is misconstrued. So it's not that, it's not that the insight that person is calm, I see that they're calm, it's that there's a deficit in the mentalization, the person's not fully understanding their intention, right? What's coming through then gets distorted, right? So we think about defense mechanisms, they can be clear, they can let light through in
this beautiful way that has fidelity, or they can be very distorting. So the thought, if I'm discerning that you are benevolent and you seem to be trying to solve the problem for us, but I take in, and you just don't care about me and you're trying to put one over on me, if I've assisted accurately, but it comes on the other end in a way that's changed, right? That's because
there's a lack of clarity, there's distortion inside of me, right? So then, if I'm really working on myself, I'm in the best place I can be, I'm going to be better at mentalizing about you and me, right? Even if I say, well, we're having a disagreement, I know I tend to get a little defensive, so I'm going to be a little biased to see what's in you in a kind of negative way, right? So what am I seeing? Like, okay, you're pretty calm. Like, maybe you don't care. Like, I know I can think that,
right? But like, come on, you're trying. You want to solve our problem. Like, imagine, when that goes on inside of a person, which sometimes goes on consciously or goes on unconsciously or some
mixture, it's so powerful, right? The person is aware of their own state, which helps them to be aware of the state of the others, of the other, and then the information they're getting comes through with fidelity, and now all of a sudden, instead of maybe I'm going to blow things up, now I'm aligned with you in solving our problem because I see clearly about you and me, and that's going on
all the time. It might say, well, it's complicated. There's a lot of back and forth, right? There are millions of things going on every sweat second in our unconscious mind that is throwing all this up to the conscious mind. It's doing things rapidly. That's going on all the time in us, whether we want to acknowledge it or not, and we choose not to acknowledge it at our own peril,
because then we're not going to those two pillars and their ten cupboards. We're not going to the structure of self, the function of self, and what comprises those two pillars to look for, hey, what's going on, right? Let me understand better. And even if things are going well, we can always, as you said, not that long ago, we can understand ourselves better. The stronger I am, the more generative drive there isn't me, the less defensiveness, the more the agency and the
gratitude, the more I'm armed for whatever difficult thing comes my way. So if there's a conflict with someone, whether there should be or there shouldn't be, maybe someone's being really aggressive, and I got to kind of say some things and try and counter that, right? I'm going to be able to discern one from another. I'm going to be more effective in both, right? I just set myself up for success. And if I'm setting me up for success, then I'm also setting you up for success,
if you're someone I have a relationship with, no matter what it is. And then ultimately, I'm setting the way, right? The magical bridge of us, I'm setting that up for success too. And that's how you see on these levels of emergence that, you know, if you understand everything about you, and understand everything about me, and let's say, person understands we have a generative drive, you don't really know what our relationship is going to be like, but you think, I bet it's going
to be a good one, right? And then what would we then then contribute, say, to a broader culture? So a group of people, maybe there's 10 people, a bunch of friends getting together, we would contribute goodness at that next level, which is then the culture of the larger group. In hearing your description of mentalization, the stability for all of us to get into the mind of another, and to try and imagine motivations and states that would explain their behavior. And self, right?
And self-hand other. Yeah, that seems like a natural reflex that's that's healthy. And it seems to surface most often in as the consequence of negative interactions, right? You know, something didn't go right. And so we kind of explore like, wasn't them? Was it me? Like, was it something that happened before? You know, what else is going on with this person as a way to try
and arrive at some sort of hopefully generative understanding? But it seems to me there's also great value in mentalizing about others under conditions in which things are going well so that one can potentially make things or encourage things to go even better in future interactions. Right. Well, the first thing I would say is I think the reflex is most often not mentalizing, that the reflex is most often not mentalizing, right? Because the reflex is often
come from a position of not feeling safe, right? There's some conflict. I don't I don't feel good, right? There's some conflict people, you know, we all can get very defensive very quickly, whether we show it on the outside or we start partitioning inside. And the problems come not from mentalizing, but they come from not mentalizing, right? And not being aware of the difference, because then I conclude I know what's going on in you and I don't, right? Because I don't know
what's going on in me, right? And I think you're being aggressive really. I'm feeling kind of defensive, I'm feeling vulnerable and then I'm getting aggressive, right? But I can't handle that because I don't want to be aggressive. So you're aggressive, right? So there's such a difference between say coming at a self other conflict from the perspective of say not mentalizing, but thinking that you are versus mentalizing, there's a difference between, is it me? I know it can't be. Is it you?
It must be, right? And that's how a lot of that goes. And then of course, what's the data that's gathered, the data that's gathered supports that. I mean, I think this is this wars, I think, have happened, you know, based upon this little own conflicts and friendships and in relationships, the key about mentalizing is that's not what it is. Mentalizing goes like this. Is it me? Is it you? Is it us? Let's figure that out. Let's figure it out together, right? It's not,
it's not defensive. It's not aggressive. It's not projecting. It's really actually seeing. And look, if it's me, I want to be aware of it and say, yeah, like, whoa, I got up on the wrong side of the bed, like, let me just say I'm sorry, right? Or if I might say, look, I know that you're being aggressive and you normally wouldn't be them and say, look, let me just get away from, let the person I care about calm down, come back later, you know, or if it's us is really something between
us and let's sort it out. Like the information that allows the healthy, right? The agency and gratitude decisions is always there through mentalizing. The danger is when we're not mentalizing, but we think we are. Got it. In keeping with thinking about others and what's going on with them, mentalizing that is and in thinking about what's going on with ourselves and the exploration of the cupboards under the pillars of structure, self-function, self and our desire for all of that
to guise up into agency and gratitude. One thing that we hear about so much these days, and generally, I think it's good that people are talking about them are boundaries, right? You know, you've crossed my boundary, or I'm setting a boundary and I've certainly embedded the message in my head that in order for certain relationships to be at their most loving in my life, sometimes the boundaries require very little frequency of communication. But that doesn't mean the relationships
aren't ongoing. So what are your thoughts on boundaries and how should we think about boundaries for sake of healthy relationships? Well, healthy boundaries always start inside. And then once we have them squared away inside, we can project them outward, right? The same as everything works, right? It starts with the self and then it includes the other. So let's say you took an example of a friend
who's just a little too presumptuous, right? Like the kind of person you'd rather knock on your door, but who just opens the door and comes in. Like that kind of thing. And you like the person a lot, then there's a lot of resonance and you want to lose the friendship and then so let's imagine what could happen here. It's not the only thing that can happen, but a thought experiment, right? So the person may then question themselves, like, is there something wrong with me? Like,
because I don't really like this person coming in my front door. Like, is that just me? Am I being weird about that? Or am the person kind of stop and think about that and they can take stock of self and they can arrive at an answer, right, for themselves? Like, look, that person may conclude that, you know what, people are almost close to as this person coming in my front door, you know what, that's okay, right? I don't need to set a boundary there, right? That's possible, right? More often,
what the person concludes is, no, I don't really want that. Like, I do actually want this person to knock on the door and that's okay. There's not something wrong with me. It's not that I'm being a jerk, it's not from being a bad friend, right? Because what are they saying? You might say, oh, they're preparing for what the other person could say, but no, they're countering what they're testing out to themselves. Does that mean I'm a bad friend? No, right? That kind of thing.
So they know and then they understand and then they have, and they have the right to set the boundary, right? Like, okay, it's my house. I try and be generous, but I still don't want people coming in to do it. Like, you come to some conclusion that setting the boundaries, okay, and you're squared away with it inside, then you communicate the boundary outward, right? And you decide, how do I want to communicate that? Like, saying, hey, man, don't come in the front door anymore. Like,
that's not so good, right? Now, the friendship is really on the rocks, right? But to say to someone, something like, yeah, I care about you and I trust you and I know you feel the same way about me, but it just makes me nervous. You know, people just come in the door like, do you mind? Is it okay? Like, please, not go in the door. Now, the thing about how that's been done, like, it's so accurate, right? To what's going on inside the person, to how the person wants to communicate
with the other, then you have the highest likelihood of effectiveness, right? And the person also, in that sense, has sort of the clean conscience, it's so to speak, that lets them take in information back. So let's say the other person, hopefully, has a high generative drive and all the good things we're talking about could say, oh, you know, I'm sorry, I didn't, I mean, I didn't mean to make you
feel uncomfortable. I kind of just automatically do that or, you know, I always do that at my brother's house and it's close by or whatever the person is saying, no worries. Okay, everything is fine, right? But let's say that person does get mad, right? Now, you know, like, whoa, it's going on in this person, right? Because now, what you're doing is you're seeing signs of unhealthy in the other
person. And it may be that, whoa, that's not so healthy with the person, but I like other aspects of the friendship and that seems like kind of a strange idiosyncrasy, then you might decide, you know what? I want to keep this friendship so I'll start locking the door. And the person has to knock or you might think, okay, is this, is that my seeing something here? That's about lack of
consideration, right? That's about selfishness. It ultimately may be about envy. I'm going to walk into your house and ruin your privacy, you know, and I'm going to walk into you also make you feel anxious. I feel entitled to do that. Like, look, the kind of thing that's really coming through the lens of envy. So then you start thinking about that. And, and maybe not always, of course, sometimes you find a friend who can do the right thing. Sometimes you find a friend who can't,
and you can still make the friendship work. Sometimes you find a person who's not a friend, right? And you see, like, oh, that's how everything is with this person. He was like, there's no us. There's no us, right? And that's, that's how people can leave relationships that ultimately are exploitive in one way or another, whether it's a friendship, it's romance. If a person really understands, there's the me, the you, the magical bridge of us. And then wait, there's no magical bridge
of us. I feel that there's a magical bridge of us, but the other person doesn't. There's immense power of understanding and then of appropriate self-care and self-protection. Over and over again, not just during today's episode, but in the previous two episodes, it seems that getting squared away with oneself, or at least one's own internal processes, to some degree, right? Gaining some insight as to where the negative or even positive emotion within us is arising
when we're in relationship to anyone or anything. It just seems so key. It's like the foundation of it. You know, you said, you know, like getting to the maximum amount of agency and gratitude is the goal, really. And that's done by cycling back through the cupboards that reside under structure, self and function, self, and asking questions about oneself. And really, unless we are trained psychiatrists like you, none of us really should be doing that for the other
person, it seems. With this, it's really our each and all of our own responsibility to do for ourselves, but that it serves others in so many positive ways. Right. Right. So mentalization greases the progress of all things good, right? Because it is about actual understanding, feeling states, intentions, but I have to first mentalize about me before I mentalize about you. A way of putting this would be, if I'm thinking about you before I'm thinking about me, I'm on a fool's errand.
Right. You have to start with the self and to try and attain clarity of self or to realize that you can't. Right. That's, it's a very important nuance. If I know that say there's trauma in me about a certain thing, and I know that I respond in ways where sometimes my emotions get high, and I can't quite, I can't quite think through it all, right, which can happen to me with, with references or something that's encompassing a certain kind of trauma, I want to be aware of that.
Right. So this is an idea of not only being aware of what you know about yourself, but being aware that there are things you don't know about yourself. So if I know enough to know that a certain kind of interaction about a certain kind of trauma really sets me to a place where I'm not able to mentalize, like I normally would be, right. I'm sort of flying blind, right. Then good for me to know that because I don't know what that's doing to me. So it's the last time to make conclusion.
So let's say I'm in that state, let's say I'm in that state because of something that just happened. Right. And now we have some sort of conflict, right. Then for me to realize like, well, what's going on on to me, I'm bringing to this a lack of clarity because I'm, I'm really activated, right. And that's since the anxiety, the tension in me has been raised to the negative emotion that reflexive negative affect feeling emotion has been raised in me. And then I realize like, I don't
know how it's going to go if we interact about it now because I can't rely on me. So like, hey, can we talk about this later? The same way, if you recognize in the other, that person who's usually rational is like, was all worked up, recognize that in the other, right. And may that person doesn't realize that they still want to interact. And you say, can we, let's, let's revisit this. And we're like, we're both kind of calm, cool and collected, right. So mentalization greases the
wheels of all progress. But like anything else has to be deployed in a way that works. And the way that works is I start with me, then I go to you, and then I go to us. I'm fully on board the
start with me, then to the other, and then to us model. It makes total sense. In fact, so much so that I'm starting to build an image of my mind where first is a kind of a rule, which is it, you know, it starts with self-understanding and, you know, thoughtful, structured inquiry along the lines of the map that was laid out in episodes one and two of this series and that we've been
alluding to numerous times today. And then there's a second line or rule that I've got, you know, written on this imaginary piece of paper in my mind, where anytime I default to thinking about another without first going to my own map and exploring what's going on with me, that my own map starts to become blurry, like I'm losing access to it and it potentially could disappear. I'm just creating this in my own mind as a way to create a little bit of, I think, help me
anxiety. I like it. To really go there first. Pain's the picture. Yes. And, you know, the purpose in having such an image in my mind that, you know, access to the self and understanding of self is potentially drifting away is because I think for me there's a third line in this rule, rule set that I'm imagining, which is that the less understanding we have of our own map and internal process, the more likely I am where we all are to just latch on to an unhealthy map,
another unhealthy map. Yes. I have to leave it. Or even follow the directions of our own unhealthy map, right, which leads us to someone else's unhealthy map and then we latch on to it like you said. Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Yeah, that's right because it's still active even if it's blurry or if it's obscured from my awareness and drifting away. If I'm trying to guide myself with my broken compass, I run into someone else with a broken compass. Now we're both wandering, right? So be
aware of the compass isn't working the way we wanted to. Can we go look at that? Can we can we make the map healthy? Make the map accurate? Make the map guide us towards what we want because then we will find other people who've worked on their own maps that way. Absolutely. And so often I hear about and frankly, I've experienced, you know, this feeling like, oh, it's just a matter of finding somebody who is healthy, right? And then things will be much easier and much better. And surely
that has to be the case. And surely there have to be instances where people, you know, have a interaction with somebody that leads to a relationship with somebody and the other person is much healthier and whatever trauma we come to the relationship with is best supported or better supported than it would be if we were with somebody exploitive or who is a truly damaged, you know, in some way who basically had a map that was really, I don't want to say screwed up,
but that they had not explored any of the numbers. They need a lot of work. I don't see that very often. I definitely see people who at least from my outside read seem to have healthy maps or are doing regular exploration of their maps and therefore healthy. Who knows? I don't know what they do with their time in every domain of life. But once again, we come back to this importance of understanding what's in those cupboards, what's in those pillars as a not just important but critical
step in understanding and building ourselves in positive ways. And I was like, said once or twice before in this series, but I'm going to say it again. And I'm sure again and again before we conclude this series is that what's so attractive about this map is that it sets a very clear and simple set of ideals, not necessarily simple to attain. And as you said, it takes time, but agency and gratitude, you know, empowerment, humility, leading up to peace, contentment and delight, all as
action states, not as passive states to just a bask in and, you know, and disappear. And this notion of the the generative drive. And by now and in this episode, I'm sure people are well on board the understanding that the generative drive is not just about going out and doing things. It's about doing things in service to and in a way that supports learning, knowing, creating, not just of others and in the world, but in the source. Yes. I love the map imagery because
you can almost see the map changing, right? As a person, I imagine a person is busying away in the cupboards, right? Oh, there's a lot to work on in this cupboard. And they're busying away and they're doing the work. And we can see the map changing. That path that looked like a really good path actually goes through a swamp. You can see the swamp on the map now. It appears on the map. That other path that looked like it's a little circuitous, that's a good path, right? It might be
a harder path. It is a little circuitous, but look where it leads, right? The map becomes clear as we do the work on ourselves. Yes. And also the understanding that you've laid out for us here really helps avoid a lot of the common pitfalls that are associated with, you know, sticky language and sticky for good reason. I mean, what's stickier and more interesting for people that are interested in themselves in relationship than things like, you know, boundaries or labels,
like anxious attached or secure attached. I'm not being disparaging of those labels, but I'm realizing those are just labels, right? They don't define action items and specific lines of inquiry to get us back into our self-understanding over and over. And not as a full-time job, right? We all have to live our lives, but as a way, actually, to be more leaned into life in the outside world. Those labels define people no better than the numerical diagnoses in the psychiatric taxonomy book
that we glorify, right? Labels are not understanding. Numbers are not understanding. They can help. Taxonomies are good. Sometimes labels let us categorize things, but labels are not a substitute for understanding. Numbers are not a substitute for understanding. If we look at ourselves, we get real understanding. And that's what makes the difference. That's what bolsters agency, gratitude, all those good things, clear mentalization, greasingly, wills a progress more. The generative
drive getting stronger, we really can find goodness and often do. And that's why I think everything we're talking about is very hopeful. I mean, it acknowledges there's complexity, there pitfalls, right? There are all sorts of things to it that we need to be aware of and to be aware of. But that doesn't mean that ultimately it isn't positive, that we're not speaking to, hey, whatever it is that's ailing you, that thing can be better.
I'm so grateful that you're sharing your knowledge and experience around all of this with us and that you've laid out such a clear and logical and deep and tractable, really actionable understanding of all this that we can engage in is tremendously powerful. Thank you. I so appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you for joining me for today's discussion about how to
improve your relationships with Dr. Paul Conti. I'd also like to take a moment to remind you that the fourth episode in the series on mental health with Paul Conti will be out next week. And that links to all the episodes can be found at hubermanlab.com. If you're learning from Endor enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zero costway to support us. In addition, please subscribe to the podcast on both Spotify and Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple,
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