¶ Mental Wellness in the Workplace
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this is Bob Goodwin , president of Career Club , and welcome to a special episode of HR Chat . I'm really excited to introduce today's guest , who's also a friend . John Ferguson is the CHRO at NASCAR and a real thought leader in sort of the next generation of all things HR , and with that , john welcome .
Hey Bob , good to see you today . Thank you so much for the opportunity to join you , leader in sort of the next generation of all things , hr , and with that John welcome . Hey Bob , good to see you today , thank you so much for the opportunity to join you , and it's always a good time when we get a chance to talk , so excited to be here .
No , thank you so much . Where are you at today ? Are you in the office ?
I am in the office . And the office is where we're in Daytona Beach , florida , so we get to enjoy the sunshine state there .
You go Awesome . Well , normally I would talk your ear off a little bit and do a bunch of gabbing , but these are shorter episodes so I need to stay focused . So there's a few things that I'd like for folks to kind of hear you talk about . One of the things that I know that is near and dear to you is mental wellness in the workplace .
We've talked about this in other forums before , but you know , in the current environment whether we're talking about the election , which is this is being recorded is still to be happening Wars , inflation , interest rates , layoffs , all kinds of things sort of going on externally People have their real lives between kids , aging parents , health , finances , all the things
that go on in real life . And then , oh yeah , there's work . That also is a stressor . What are some of the things that how you guys kind of philosophically think about mental wellness , bringing your whole self to work and helping people really be the best version of themselves in life and at work .
I take a deep breath there so we can really reflect on what that means . I think , when we look at the shifting generations in the workplace , the ability to bring your whole self into the workplace is going to become more and more present . Yes , older generations probably operate it from a lens of separation .
There I go to work , I do my job , I go home , I live my personal life . Work I do my job , I go home , I live my personal life .
As we work , play and live all in kind of this continuous circle , those clear lines of separation are becoming more and more blurred , and so I think some of the information that we'll see with Gen Z entering the workforce is going to help us all be more open , be more candid , be more transparent . However , that will be different for different folks .
We're going to have different reactions to that . So when I think about mental health in the workplace , as leaders , I think we have an obligation to , as best we can , lead by example , because I've heard a quote once that leaders cast long shadows .
So in casting a long shadow , people are watching and looking at your behavior to determine how they may or may not show up in that space . So if we are transparent about the ailments or the challenges or I would just say general adulting that happens in our life .
We give a level of clearance to those that are experiencing the same thing , and they don't have to come in and act as if everything is perfect . So you know , I'm transparent . Look , we had a leak in our roof . I need to be at home today to help get that fixed . Or , you know , my daughter's not feeling well . I'm leaving to go pick her up from school .
I would never want anyone on my team to feel as if they couldn't be a part of or take care of their family due to something at work .
I mean , we've all heard it we all are here on borrowed time , and these companies will continue to move on whether we're here or not , and so I want to make sure that , while we are in this space and time together , that everyone is getting what they need . So I think it's a bit of a give and take .
Maybe at some point I'm able to give X percent and that group's able to give X percent , but at the end of the day , we should be able to find balance that allows everyone to to live their best life while also being able to provide for their family .
I remember in a previous conversation , john , you shared with me that there was a colleague of yours and I can't remember if they're on your team or just somebody that you work with that there was a colleague of yours and I can't remember if they were on your team or just somebody that you worked with , but you noticed that they weren't kind of themselves like
maybe something had happened , but , whatever it was , you knew them well enough to be able to call them over and say , hey , do you mind sharing a little bit of not just that story , but why being able to be proactive and ask about these kinds of things is important for your frontline managers , hr leaders and everybody really .
I think that's a matter of slowing down enough to be aware , but also having enough observation of your teammates to understand . Well , maybe something's slightly off today . So that did happen . It was a former colleague .
I remember we were having a conversation and they were naturally more on the quiet side , but I had worked with them long enough to understand something was off about it . So I saw them earlier and I noticed it , but there was a lot of people around so it wasn't a time to say anything and I was like , well , maybe I could be off .
But then I saw them later in the day and we were crossing in the hallway and I could still get the same sort of measurement and I said , hey , how are you ? And that was when the sort of doors opened to understanding greater depth of what was going on in that individual's life .
We had to think about we don't know what type of home environments people are coming to the workplace from . We don't know what type of upbringing they may have experienced . I'll never forget once in undergrad I probably was a senior Dr King at Furman University . She I had like writer's block .
I was struggling , bob Probably had procrastinated on an assignment , and I went in there and I just was down and instead of going into well , hey , you can build an outline , hey , you can do this she simply said how are you I'm not going to lie , bob Her asking me .
That opened a bit of the floodgates and I started crying , you know , because it was just like there was a lot that I had on my shoulders probably last semester of college . I need to do well on this . I'm near the finish line . All of this pressure and I probably just been holding a lot of things in .
You think about social , you think about anxiety of like , what's next ? Do I have a job , will I be employed post-graduation ?
But in that moment and sort of me having that natural release and just flowing with what came up and let it go , I had a clear head and I would even say I had a clear heart so that I could go in and get that paper done and I'm sure I got a good grade out of it .
But in that moment , her showing that moment of personal care , forget the schoolwork , forget the paper , how are you , john ? And then you sit back and you realize when was the last time someone really asked you that ? And they meant it .
So when I catch employees or notice something's off , I'm naturally inclined to want to make sure they are well , because , at the end of the day , I know we as employees can work ourselves up and I've been guilty of it , of telling , kind of making the story up in our head .
Oh , if I miss this deadline or if I don't get this just right , you know I could be X , y , z , you name it . But maybe if I go and have the conversation with whoever the product is due for , help them understand the nuance of life that either has popped up or maybe is being a hindrance to us .
That's built when everybody can get a little bit below that waterline and have humility in the workplace . The first thing that strikes me , john , that you've said there was really kind of an intentionality . I love what you said slowing down , just slow down . There's an intentionality .
The second thing that you did was you didn't do it in public , you waited until a more private moment to talk to them . When I think about Dr King and your experience with her , I think it's kind of the point that I was making earlier . Like you were in school at the time .
But you know , just today in the workplace there's somebody at NASCAR , there's somebody who's listening to this , who is feeling all this pressure and all this stress .
And again , when we say , bring our whole selves to work , like people are and it's how they compartmentalize things or deal with things , dr King did you a great favor because she just asked , and now it's kind of up to you whether you want to share or not share , and that's cool , right , like no problem .
But I know , like in whether we're working with job seekers or in the outplacement practice or just executive coaching , sometimes the tendency is to get very tactical and practical and those kinds of things and not just talk to the human being , not the work producing unit .
And it is amazing how often I've had the experience of being the Dr King in that equation of just saying , well , susan , how do you I mean before we get into all the resume and LinkedIn and forget all that crap how are you in watching the floodgates open ? And they just kind of needed somebody to care enough to ask .
Right , that is , that is true . And I even think about our children . I think about the kids going through school , because we've seen incidents in the media . I don't need to label anything , but when did someone ask like how are you , what's going on with you , how is this experience going for you ? So I try to slow down enough .
And you said something I want to respond to bringing your whole self to work . Now I will say , bob , I think that's nuanced , I do think that's nuanced . And when I say whole self to work or your authentic self , I believe that you should recognize John and Bob for who we are at our core , no matter where we are .
So you wouldn't see me at a football game and say that is not the guy that I work with . Or you wouldn't see me at work and say that's not the guy that I went to the football game with . But there are elements of who we are that have to be more prominent , depending on the situation . Does that make sense ? I want to build on that .
So we have a mutual friend in Johnny Taylor from SHRM , and Johnny and I were talking about this a few weeks ago and this I love what you said who you are , not just where you are . That is a great expression and what we were talking about were core values .
And when your core values are aligned with your work , the mission of what you're working on , and you find purpose and I'm going to make a word picture here in a minute of being one person at home and one person at work , that's exhausting and when people talk about it for people that are just listening to this , I'm holding my hands up like scales .
When people do work life balance , think about that . The whole concept there is that they're in conflict with each other and if they're in balance , we've just minimized the conflict versus one plus one is three because they're working together .
The word picture I wanted to use , john , to kind of amplify your point , is if we could say that who I truly am is a liquid , just is a liquid . The container changes . I might be in a work container , I might be in a parental container , I might be in a spousal container , I might be in a friend container .
Whatever , the liquid is the same Like I'm , not something different , it's just the container you find me in . I'm shaped a little bit differently , I might look a little bit different . I'm still the same me ideally , irrespective of the context , which
¶ Maintaining Professionalism Through Emotional Intelligence
is a container . You want to respond to that .
I love the way you put it . I'm going to take that on the road with me and I'll be sure to give you credit , but that's it . That's exactly it , because I have to show up differently for different environments , but I never want you to say that wasn't the John that I know .
No , I'm still the same John , but how I may talk to my children is going to be different than how I may talk to my colleague , but I want you to still know the essence of who I am . Through all of those transactions .
My core beliefs , my core mission , my core values are still going to be consistent , and I just think that's really important , because when you know there are certain elements of no matter who we are , they aren't appropriate for certain areas . Like , I wouldn't have a conversation that I would have with my children with a colleague . It's just simple as that .
There's just that nuance , and so I want to make sure that the incoming generation and the emerging generation workforce understands that piece , because there are some things that you shouldn't discuss in the workplace .
Workplace , right , you know , uh , but that doesn't mean you can't be who you are , but there are certain parameters that you still want to have because this is a professional environment , so , and I think you can have that work-life blend . You can totally have that , uh , but you need to to to be mindful of what container is needed for that moment .
that's exactly right and then that , you know , really kind of bridges us into emotional intelligence , right and being , and being able to quote , read the room and , you know , be able to understand what's the context that I'm in right now and what does that call for . And you know , I love what you said about .
You know there are generational differences and that is diversity , and there's not even necessarily a right or a wrong to any of that Right . So it's not judgmental , but respecting other people's boundaries Right , because they're bringing as much of themselves as they want to bring to work . Right .
And so this notion of respect , I think , is really key in all of this , because otherwise it's like you know , ain't nobody going to tell me what to do and you're just kind of being what you want to be and not being very sensitive to how's this affecting other people , and you know .
Then we start getting into words like empathy , right , and are we really being the best colleague that we can be when we're just worried about well , this is what I want to do . This is how I want to be .
I think emotional intelligence is a skill that we will never master , and I say that because it requires consistent practice , because different things can bring up different emotions in you which could throw your what you may perceive , your perfection of emotional intelligence .
It would throw it off because you're fighting with this natural human instinct to respond in a particular way . And so that's when I go back to the slow down , slow down , slow down . Feel the emotion , try to assess the situation . And there's nothing wrong with having to tell someone , you know what . I need some time to process that .
Can we schedule some time later in the week , because there's a lot that I want to make sure I'm able to understand and review prior to giving you , potentially , the response in this moment .
So let me take that one back to the team , or take it back and reflect on it and come back to you , because I think it's that composure and the ability to remain level-headed , because let's just talk about this . Everyone working today is experiencing change . We have been on a roller coaster of change since 2020 .
You know we saw the pandemic social justice movement .
We have been on a roller coaster of change since 2020 . We saw the pandemic social justice movement . We saw remote hybrid , some people being called back into the office full time . We have seen where the job market was hot you could leave a job and get another job just like that . We've seen it cool off . We've seen interest rates increase .
We've seen it be a seller's market , a buyer's market . We have just seen a lot of change , and so one thing that will be consistent and guaranteed in our journeys in life is change . But that doesn't make it easy . That doesn't make it easy .
So I always try to tell people to make sure you are taking care of yourself during change , but also understand and develop the ability to flow , because there's so much in life that we cannot control .
What we can control is ourselves and potentially our homes and things of that nature , but when it comes to working , there are going to be some things that we're going to have to learn to flow with , and a good mentor of mine shared recently . He said you need to always have a North Star , and did that change impact your North Star ?
If it didn't impact that North Star , then flow . But now , if it did something that impacted your personal North Star , then you need to figure out sort of how do you respond to that in a way that allows you to remain true to who you are and what your North Star is .
And I just thought that was very good advice at a time when I needed it because I was focused , potentially , on things that I couldn't control . He's like well , let's think about that . How did it impact your North Star ? And I'm like well , you know what ? Not so much . He's like then you've got to flow with it . I love it , so I share that .
I hope that resonates with you too ?
No , a million percent . And so there's a book and maybe a lot of people read this in high school or college or sometimes since but called Man's Search for Meaning , by Viktor Frankl . And he was a Austrian psychiatrist during World War II , jewish Austrian psychiatrist during World War II , jewish . And he lost his whole family in the Holocaust .
He spent four years in concentration camps and came out of it . He was the only survivor of his family and you know , you clearly can't imagine more horrific circumstances . And these are , to your point , externalities and the quote .
There's a million of them in this book , but one that just really stands out to me we've even put it on our website is , you know , the the last freedom for a person is the freedom to choose , irrespective of the circumstances , choosing your attitude and choosing your actions , and that's called autonomy and that's called agency , and you know the way that we talk
about it is that these are your North stars
¶ Workplace Empowerment and Personal Development
. I mean , like this is all kind of in the same area and the thing with autonomy , which is the ability to self-govern , and agency , which is with moral authority as part of that . What's right and wrong for me ? But one of my values , my true North is nobody can take that away from you , comma . But you can give it to people .
I can give it to you , like I'm so mad at how you treated me , it was so unfair , blah , blah , blah . And usually at this point I'll quote Nelson Mandela , where he says bitterness is like swallowing poison and waiting for your enemy to die Right .
And so you know when we can recognize that we've got this autonomy , we've got this agency , and you can't take it from me Like this is who I am , this is my North Star .
And , yes , all this is happening , but the way that I think about myself in the present , the way that I think about who I want to become , the way I'm going to choose to react in this situation , is not the lesser person that I could be sometimes , but that's not who I want to be and that's going to govern my reaction to change , because we don't like
change at the end I mean , typically , people don't like change . And so how we deal with it and , to your well-made point , the pace of change and the amplitude of change are only increasing . It ain't getting slower . Today is going to be the slowest day of your life moving forward . And so , until we learn how to deal with change . It's just stress .
It's just high , high levels of stress .
One thing that stands out to me and when we even think about work-life blend where you want to work , how you want to work , and that autonomy and agency employment is a two-way street and you can be there and have a great time , but then sometimes you are being elevated to another place , and so I think for a lot of people I always say we don't have to be
long suffering . If there's something that you don't like and it does impact your North Star , I want to be able to partner with you to help you find whatever that better alignment could be for you , because when you don't like , you say you swallow that bitterness and you're waiting on it to poison someone else . It's just not going to happen .
So now you're really unhappy here or wherever you're working or whatever the environment is . I think this is even beyond work context personal families . You know all kinds of things . If it doesn't bring you joy , know that you have autonomy and agency to control the space that is within you and around you .
All . I can say is amen , but it's a truth that I think all of us need to come to . I think for a lot of people it's not natural , because the natural thing is to complain , be a victim , right , be , you know , long-suffering , as you said , but when it's like , wait a minute , you only get one time around this track . Is that how you want to spend it ?
Is that going to allow you to be the best version of yourself , for satisfaction , joy ? And then , is that what you want to model for people that you influence or would hope to influence ? And I think for most parents , they want their children to be happy , not to be at a job that they don't like or doing anything that they're profoundly unhappy at .
Life's going to have ups and downs and marriage or anything isn't amazing every day . You don't jump off the bus at the first bump , but I signed up for this trip . I'm going to stay on this trip .
But things like work there's a lot of companies to work at and if a and cultures change , companies change , right , when I started here 10 years ago , it was amazing , but you know this , that and the other has changed . Okay , talk for a minute , john . This is this .
Is you're so good at this , about helping people want to be from somewhere like you , right and to give people the freedom to leave . Can you talk about that for a minute ?
That's such a powerful idea that I don't hear very often One of my core philosophies in being an HR practitioner and leader of organizations people is we want to be known as a great place to work and a great place to be from , and I think that is really providing the space to welcome Gen Z into the workplace , because the data already says they're not going to
be long tenured employees , so we need to start shifting our perspective on how we view retention . So being a great place to work means that while you were here , bob , we had a phenomenal time . We grew , we innovated , we added skills to our toolkit , we impacted the bottom line , we saw expansion . You felt like a whole person at work .
I felt like a whole person at work , but , hey , guess what A new opportunity appeared . You're ready for a new challenge , a new something else ? Or just you feel like you've done what you needed to do here ? You're ready to try something different ? We have to look at that in a different light .
It's not that where you were today was bad or anything was wrong . It's just that , hey , you have helped me propel myself to the next level , and so that's when it becomes a great place to be from , and that's what you want your organization to be known as I don't know who , anyone who would say otherwise .
You want to be known as a great place to work and then when people leave , they start becoming brand ambassadors and say you know what ? I'm so thankful for my time at XYZ Company because I wouldn't be here if I didn't get that experience . It really gave me the skills and the tools and it gave me confidence .
And so in that confidence and in that evolution and that professional journey with them , I was prepared and confident to apply for this job or to take that phone call . But then it also allows for you to have that career path and career progression that we know the incoming generation , and I would even say all generations , want to see .
But there's been a point in time where it's like it was stacked above you . No one was leaving . So it's kind of like do I sit here and feel like I'm not getting the full experience , or do I go over here where I can continue to grow and get that full experience and get the exposure that I want or expand my scope ?
So that's something that I think a lot of companies need to really sit and reflect on , especially as we look at just the shifting dynamics in the workplace , I can't say it enough . Right now we have a healthy mix of everyone , but that's to your point . That's diversity . But as those generations shift , the behaviors are going to shift too , and companies .
Traditionally we've been kind of anchored in like retain , retain , retain , and that is still a great philosophy .
But sometimes we have to Potentially help employees reach the next level , even if that means it's beyond our organization , because this is one thing I'm firmly a believer in If we were a great place to work and we become a great place to be from , we can always welcome you back .
You took it out of my mouth . That's waiting .
Yes , the boomerang employee , because now you're coming back and you have this added skill set that nine times out of 10 , we could not have provided to you , because every company kind of has its own DNA , so they have something that they're really good at .
We have something that we're really good at , but now , when you come back to us at the level that you want to be , you have a fresh perspective . You have a different way of looking at our business and that now makes you more competitive in the job market .
Makes you more competitive in the job market , but now it also allows you to add that additional level of value and input and business evolution to what we are currently doing .
John , the problem is the time says we have to start winding down . I had a list of like seven different categories .
I have one more piece , though , one more piece on the mental health .
And this is what we talked about last time .
Oh , what was the app I told you about ? So we talked about the feelings wheel is how it came up but it is . Oh no , I'm moving slow here . Hold on , hold on how we feel . How we feel is a free app that you can download in your app store and it helps you with putting labels on your emotions , and I think sometimes I could outspeak for myself .
I have been guilty of suppressing Like nope , let me just bottle this in , Let me bottle this in , Let me just take it , take it , take it . But sometimes when I let myself actually feel that emotion happy , sad , angry , whatever it could be there's a level of slowing down that comes into place .
And I believe that when you're able to label it , put a word on it , even kind of go back and look at the trends of maybe what you're feeling , you can understand what is impacting you , so you can also do a better job of operating in that space of feeling your emotion . So I offer that to anyone listening today Download the how we Feel app . It's free .
It's a version of the Feelings Wheel where you have different emotions , but it's digital and they can check in with you throughout your day and you can start looking at trend lines . You might realize you know what . Maybe I never feel good in the morning because I realized I don't go to bed till 2 am .
Maybe a lot of my life would be different if I went to bed earlier . So that's just one example .
But thank you , bob . No , no , I love it , and sorry , now you make me have to say something else . On top of that is there's there's a concept that I learned from my friend , dr Andy Garrett , who's a clinical psychologist , just to this last point that you're making , which is called name it to tame it , name it to tame it .
And we are emotional creatures , like we were created to be emotional , and that's okay . But when it gets to be too much , then it becomes , it can be problematic . So when we're feeling things and I love your feelings , will and the what's it called again Sorry , how we feel out . How we feel out is , but when you can put it .
I know what I'm feeling and you said something twice in this interview that I think is really one of the keyest keyest is that a word . Most key takeaways is slow down , slow down , slow down to engage with your colleagues , slow down to engage with yourself . And what am I feeling feeling ? Why do I feel this way ?
How can I reassert my autonomy to my own feelings ? Right , but takes time . It takes a little bit of training , like you . Like when these feeling wheels are an app to help you do that , John . We could keep going . I love talking to you . You're one of the best HR leaders that I've had the privilege to talk to .
I appreciate you spending a few minutes today here with HR Chat . Thank you .
Thank you , bob , it's always a pleasure . No , okay .
And everyone who's listening . Thank you so much , Bill . Thank you again for allowing me to do this , and we hope everyone has a great day and we'll see you on the next episode . Bye-bye .
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