Good afternoon, or good morning, everybody. This is Mark Mitford, managing director for HR Catalyst, and I'm really excited to have a friend of mine, Julie Chance, as our guest today, and Julie is gonna be talking about the interesting area of talent management and how this is a cri , a critical and strategic thing that every business owner needs to focus on.
So, with that, Julie, I would love for you to, if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself as to who you are and what do you , uh, what is your business and , uh, and , uh, just wanted to start out there as a good starting point.
Absolutely. Thanks for having me, mark . So I have a company called Action Strategies by Design. And my PA passion is really supporting organizations in creating workplace cultures where everybody can thrive, where the individual contributors, the leaders, the organization itself thrives.
And our vision is really a work, an environment where every single person can contribute to their full potential and where everything, everybody's pulling together towards a common purpose. The way we do that is we work with , um, leaders and with their teams around leadership effectiveness, around communication, around collaboration and, and , um, building high performing teams.
Wow. That's, that's, that was really well said , Julie. It's, it's amazing how, you know, the nice thing is, you, you really discussed a lot of the key things, which we wanted to jump in today , today into a little more further detail. So, what was the, so your story, so when did you start your own business and what was kind of the driving force behind you actually starting your own business?
So the, the driving force between, behind me starting my own business was really I'd gotten to a point where I decided if I was going to succeed or if I was gonna fail, and especially if I was gonna fail, I wanted to do it based on my decisions and not the decisions that somebody else was making.
Uh, the reason I went this particular direction and where my passion for this work comes from is I started my career working for a psychiatric hospital or residential treatment center for emotionally disturbed children and adolescents. And if, you know , if you, if you have kids, you , you know that , um, adolescents are really, really good at splitting their parents if their parents aren't really on the same page. Right?
Interesting. So
When you're working in a, a environment with emotionally disturbed , um, young people, they're very, they're equally good, or even better at splitting the staff. So that team work and the staff being on the same page was really critical to the success of the individuals within the treatment programs. So I , that's really where my passion developed.
And then over time, I saw the, the success that organizations could have working with as a team , um, compared to people that, organizations that weren't working as a team. And then I had the opportunity to work with some really good leaders and, and a couple of really bad leaders , that , that helped really cement that direction.
Oh , that . That's great. You know, I think we all have , um, I know that you've been working for quite a few years, Julie, just as myself, and I think we've always had these, we've had these in , in these situations where organizations, we have a really good, well, well running organization, and we have some that are not so good.
And so it's kind of , uh, it's really interesting to hear some of your background there. So , um, you know, today of course, we're, we're here to talk specifically around talent management. So with that as kind of a backdrop around talent management, and I think a lot of people here , you could Google talent management and you get in talent development, you'd get, you , you can find a thousand definitions.
But in your words, given your expertise, how would you define , um, talent management for our audience today?
So I really look at it as being three pillars. The first pillar is around attracting talent. The second pillar is around re retaining that talent. And then the third pillar is around helping, supporting and creating environment where that talent can contribute to their full potential. And obviously there's a lot of pieces that go into each one of those, right?
The right , the acquisition piece is everything from recruitment to interviewing, to making the offer to onboarding. Um, things like career, pro progression, employee engagement , um, leadership development really fall into our , our key IPO components under the retention and the performance pieces. But it's, it's simplest.
It's, it's those, it's a focus and a strategy and effective implementation of a strategy around those three pillars.
Hmm . Yeah, that's great. So, no , I love the way that you simplified it for our audience. So why, why do you think, if we're, if we're talking to, if we have business owners, business leaders on , uh, listening to this today, why do you think it's so important for, let's say a , um, 50 million company with 200 employees?
Um, why do you think it's so important for them if they've never thought about a talent, a talent management strategy, why do you think it's so important for them to implement it within the next couple of months, if at all possible?
Well, I actually think that a a a talent develop or a talent management strategy is even more important for that size of an organization maybe than it is for a larger organization. Cause one, typically they have to do more with less resources, and they, they oftentimes don't have the resources to recruit the way that a, that a larger organization can.
So, so a good talent management strategy actually gives them a competitive advantage , um, in, in terms of recruitment, retention, and performance. And I think, you know, it, it, we know that the cost of, of replacing employees, the cost of turnover is very expensive. Um, it's, it's time consuming.
You lo you lose productivity , uh, just all kinds of issues around when there's turnover , uh, when you've got a lack of engagement and when it hurts productivity, when you've got , um, you know, the whole, when you've got leaders who haven't been trained and aren't as effective as they could be, then that hurts production or productivity across the board. So I think it can help create a competitive advantage.
It can , um, help increase productivity and ultimately pro uh, profitability. And I think particularly organizations that are in a high growth mode, that's oftentimes when things start falling apart, right? They've gone from where they could get by with the systems, the processes , um, including the talent management system process that they have to where that growth just amplifies the need for it.
So it can help help them in periods of growth not be so chaotic.
Right? Oh , that's, no, that's a great response.
It's so true that, you know, when a company, if a company is growing rapidly because of the marketplace they're in , um, the products, what have you, they're seeing a great market opportunity that it's , it's so paramount for them to really have, if they, if the wheels, you know, it's , it's almost like there's some issues with the , with the vehicle they're driving and they, they, they try to accelerate the vehicle,
then sometimes those issues are gonna become that much more extensive or exacerbated. So , um, so those are great thoughts. Thank you for that. So in your opinion, how well the middle market size companies actually have a talent management talent, you know, management process from, you know, the experience that you have and , and what you've seen with companies of this size?
Well, I think it varies, right? There's some companies that do it very well on the whole, though, I would say it's an area that the companies struggle with, especially that, that size company that, that you've described. Um, I think there's probably a number of reasons for that. Mm-hmm. , um, that one is, you know, focused on day-to-day operations, right?
Don't take the time to step back and say, how do we put this this in place? I think that , um, the expertise to put it in place may be another , um, concern or another issue. And then I think sometimes , um, leaders don't maybe believe how important it really is.
Hmm . So what would you do if , um, so if, you know, just on that one point you just mentioned there the last couple of seconds, so if leaders , because I think we all run into that situation, if a leader's not bought in on actually doing this, what can you do?
What have you done to be able to create more buy-in and commitment from a leadership perspective, if it initially they're really, they're really not bought in , what are some things that you've done personally to be able to turn their be , be able to , uh, turn them in a slightly different direction?
That's, that's a , a difficult , um, one, I think one is to really get them to look at what they're doing now and is that working? How well is it working? What are the problems that are coming up? And if you start seeing those people problems coming up , um, that, you know, is turnover high, what's turnover costing you?
That's a , that's a really often a great place to start because it's an area where leaders feel the pain, right? Mm-hmm. , they see the cost in it , and it's an area that, that keeps them up at night. So I think if , if there's a high level of turnover , um, that's a great place to start to get them to, let's at least try implementing, starting this process. Um , you know, there's a lot of statistics out there.
Statistics can help. They aren't gonna change somebody's mind though. It definitely , um, is a place to, to start and to look at though, and then try to get them to, to make a change.
Hmm .
You know , it , it change one thing. Let's, let's look at what's one thing that, and hopefully the biggest thing that might be impacting just turnover, if that's what we're looking at and what's one thing that we can do in this entire system or process that, that we can, can make a change and see what results we get.
Because I think that's the, the , um, the whole piece, right, is leaders need to see results towards the things they care about, growth, productivity, profitability, and, and so if there's one area that can be tweaked and, and then start to see some results, then it's a little bit easier to , to implement on a grander scale,
Right? Oh yeah, no , that's , that's really, those are some really good nuggets there too, Julie . I know that , um, in the work that I've done a lot of times too, you know, you, if you can create one win, you know, get some momentum, get some buy-in.
If you have a leader who's not bought in yet, create one situation where you get one success story, it's almost like a little bit like the snowball effect where you can, if you can create that momentum, then that makes things work. Um, that makes things become a little bit easier to get that next win and maybe the next one. Yeah .
So with that, let's, I'm gonna go ahead and take a short break and also let you take a short break and we will be back in probably about 30 seconds to, to continue the conversation.
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Okay. We're back from our break. And , um, thank you so much Julie, for the great insightful in our first half of the program and the podcast. Thanks for your insightful conversation there . I just wanted to continue to follow up and we, we also wanna make sure everybody stays on board cuz we got a couple of fun questions to ask Julie when we finish up.
So , um, so our next question for you, Julie, is , um, would you say that talent management, is it a system, is it a process, is it processes or is it both, you know, system, a system and a process or processes? What are , what are your thoughts there?
Well, I do think it's a system and, and I think within the system there's processes, right? Or processes. I think you've got a system where, where recruitment has to integrate and interact with the retention has to integrate and interact with, with the , um, performance piece. And so all of those pieces have to work together.
But then there's sub-components as , as I mentioned earlier, within the, the re the attraction piece. There's, you know, the, the , the recruiting, finding the candidates, and then there's the actual interviewing piece, and then there's the hiring piece and the onboarding piece. And that onboarding piece is, is a link or an intersection with the, the main maintaining and and performing piece.
So I think within each of those pillars there, there are processes.
Okay. That's great. So , um, what would you say if you were working with a client and they were just getting started with , uh, with you on this journey, what are there keys, what are the key success, you know, criteria or any metrics or criteria that you would say, here's a good way to measure success in this as we build this talent management , um, system. What would you say those are?
Well, I definitely think retention, you know, what's turnover, what's your, what's your turnover rate? And is turnover going the direction you want it to go? Which is down, right? Especially turnover in the people you want to keep. Mm-hmm . Um , so is, is that, and , and just in general, is that going down? I think employee engagement is a critical aspect , um, or a measurement point.
You know, engaged employees are more likely to stay mm-hmm . engaged employees are more likely to be productive. Um, so I think that's a , a metric or a measuring point. And then the other thing that I think it's important to measure in some way or shape or form is leadership effectiveness.
Uh , how , how effective do the individual contributors do the, the employees of the organization in general feel that their direct manager or leader is?
Hmm . Yeah, that's really good. It's, and it's so amazing because when, in my experience in , in working with companies, I always talk to them. And when working with a client, you know, you have good turnover and you have bad turnover because a lot of companies that they measure turnover, they're just looking at the pure number and the math on what their turnover, attrition rate is.
But I always say, you know, if you have good turnover, that's if you have people who are your C players and lower , um, that are the people that are leaving, that's actually good turnover. And like you said, the bad turnover. Of course, if you're losing your A players who are really driving your organization, then that's really bad turnover.
And , and what can you do about that turnover to try to mitigate that number and be able to lower that, that , uh, uh, significantly.
The other area that I would say is, is bad turnover and something to really look at and monitor is if you're losing a lot of people in the first 90 days or even six months , um, you probably don't really know if they're A or C players at that point. You may, you may get, you may know within a week, then, then you, but then you've got something going on with your hiring piece. Mm . Right .
If if you've got that huge, huge short term turnover , um, that can be problematic.
Right. No , that's a great, no , I love, I love that you , um, you had that thought there, that's really good.
So , um, what can happen, you know, if the process, if, if you get started, what , you know, here's a scenario, a process you started with , um, with a client, you know, six months in , nine months in , um, what could happen for that process, in your opinion to , for that process to actually get derailed or dramatically fail?
Uh , you know, even if you see that you get, you get momentum, there's buy in those commitments and you get some things going. What are some things watch outs for our audience around what can happen to actually derail the process once you, once you start to actually build it out?
So I think it's that, that what we all do and we all get sucked into is that focus on the urgent versus the important. And I think sometimes even though it's this, this is very important, most of the time it doesn't feel urgent, right? So it's, it's that, that, you know, day to day , put this fire out, put that fire out, which really is a downward spiral, right? Mm-hmm . , right ?
It , it , it , if you can step out of that long enough to get good strategy in place and maintain it, then it actually helps with that having to put fires out. So I think that's one of the biggest pieces. Um, I do sometimes see like, it was sort of, okay , this is the flavor today, right? And ooh , that's a , that's a bright shiny object. Let me, let's do this one now. Um , so I think that's another one.
I think the main one though is just that, that people get sucked into the day-to-day. Mm-hmm . And don't focus on what has to be done that , that, you know, what has to be done to keep that system in place and to keep it going. I think metrics is a way to help with that by measuring periodically are we going in the right direction?
If you've got , if you're measuring the right things, you know, you start to see that that downturn, it can be a , uh, indicator that, that maybe we've gotten off track.
Yeah, no, that's great. So thank you. Yeah, that's, that's wonderful. So is this something in creating , um, in creating an and helping to build a talent management process, is that something that you actually help business owners with currently?
I do. I focus , um, primarily around the, if you look at those three pillars , um, I focus a lot with the leadership development and the leadership training , um, piece of that because leaders, and where that becomes critical is leaders are have a huge either direct impact or influence mm-hmm . over all aspects of this.
So if , if you, you know, if you have your leaders trained, aligned, bought into the importance of talent management and their , you know, they, they have skills or developed skills in terms of interviewing, they have developed those, especially I would say coaching skills around coaching and developing their people.
Those, those go a long ways towards , um, the, the having a good talent management, effective talent management system . So they're around team development , um, developing teams also, and then, and then some , um, a piece of it beyond the leadership piece is professional development for the individual contributors. And we work there also around communication skills , um, being effective team players, things like that.
Hmm . Okay. That's great. Um, so if any business owners are watching this and they don't have this , um, they, they don't have a talent management strategy in place , um, what are three, what are three compelling reasons that you would say they need to start that today and not put that off?
Uh, profitability. Profitability and profitability.
. I love it .
Seriously though . And I think, I think, okay. It's easy to say that, right? Sure. For business owners, a lot of times it's hard for them to connect the dots to, okay, so, so what is that trail from talent management to profitability? And we've talked about those.
Just to, to kind of put it in summary though, is a good talent management system will help you get the right people in place from the get go into the right jobs, right? Um , when you get the right people into the right jobs, it helps with eliminate turnover , um, which is costly.
When you get the right people in the right jobs and they're engaged in what they're doing, they're passionate about what they're doing, they're engaged with the company that leads to also helps with retention, right? So it reduces that turnover cost and it improves engagement when or when people are engaged, that improves productivity and it improves innovation and creativity.
So all of those things a talent management program can help an organization do, which leads to greater profitability , um, in the end.
Right. I know . And then, you know, that's it .
As , as long as you can make that busin that compelling business case for leaders and owners , uh, CEOs, you know, once you can tie, once you can tie it and cor correlated back to the, you know, the revenue side and the profitability side, then a lot of the , um, I guess a lot of the naysayers are, are quickly quieted because they really understand this has a direct line to profitability,
I think. Yeah . It's easy to see , say, right, then that helps and then they've gotta see it.
Right? Right. Um, we were gonna go to , um, move over to some fun things about you and, but before we do that, any final talk ? You know, this has been a great discussion. Um, Julie, any final thoughts on the topic you'd like to share with , um, with our audience?
I think that for these mid-market businesses, I think that, especially those that may not have the expertise of a human resource department or a well-staffed human resource department, the idea of implementing a talent management system or a , a strategy that we've talked about that's got all of these components and, and moving pieces can be, can be daunting, right? Mm-hmm . can be almost overwhelming.
And when we get overwhelmed, we don't take action. So I would encourage , um, business owners and business leaders to, to find one thing, one area to start with. We talked a little bit about that, and I would just, in general, it's gonna vary from business to business.
And if I were talking to a business leader, we'd look at their business, but just in general, based on my experience, I think the areas where I typically recommend somebody starts is with the hiring process. Are there good job descriptions that really define what somebody needs to do? Because if , if not, then you're not gonna hire the right people. Mm-hmm .
, do the leaders and the hiring managers, the people who are doing the hiring, do they have good interviewing skills and do they have support in, in interviewing? So those are, you know, that whole interviewing process would be one place to start the second place or another place to start, especially if somebody's not doing a lot of hiring, right?
Some organizations are doing a whole lot of hiring, others are, they still need a talent management system, but the hiring isn't the the pain point. I would start with developing helping leaders develop their coaching skills. Uh , go Google did a, a study a while back called Pro Project Oxygen, and you might be familiar with it, but their goal was to prove that managers weren't needed.
What they ended up coming up with was a list of about eight things that really set eight characteristics or competencies that set great leaders a apart from their other managers or leaders within the organization. And the number one thing was to be a good coach, to be able to ask questions and listen and help people grow and develop.
So that is one of those two areas, either in the hiring area or in the, the coaching and development area, or helping leaders and managers be good coaches is where I would start.
Hmm . That's great. Now those are, like you said, I think , um, we all know depending on our careers, and I even prior to our careers, if we had, if we were doing sports and we were, I think everybody who was , who, you know, played some sort of a sport in their younger years, if they had a really good coach that really remember who that was and why that individual was such a good coach. Yeah .
So I just love , um, I , I love that about , um, about what you just said. So, so with that, we're gonna turn over to a couple, a couple things that that just really insightful about you, and just obviously I know, I think I know you well enough to know that you're extremely well. You're, you're very book smart , you're very smart, and you're very book smart.
So what would be three books that you'd actually recommend our audience , um, to our audience today, and why would you recommend those three books? So
The first one was a no-brainer. I mean, that just popped into my head immediately, and it's one that I recommend quite often. It's, it's pro , I don't think it's probably ever on the best seller , seller list. So it's one that's a little more obscure. It's called Turn the Ship Around, and it's by , um, an author named l David Marque . Okay .
And the story is he took over a submarine in the Pacific Fleet that was worst in the fleet, and within a year he had turned that submarine around. He and his team had turned that submarine around to be first in the, the fleet. And he accomplished some other really , um, unusual things from my understanding.
Um, I don't have a , a huge understanding of military operations, but he got all of his officers promoted to command, which apparently is a little bit unusual in military situations. And he did it with the people that were on the boat when he got there. You know, there was some turnover and things, but some people came in, some people transferred out, didn't have the ability to go in and fire people.
Right.
typically not how the military works, right? So I hear leaders a lot complaining about their team, and I think it really shows this book and his story, and he puts some structure and a framework around what he did. It's not just the story. Mm-hmm. , um, really helps to show that you can do a lot with the people you have if really if you put in place what we've been talking about.
Right? Yeah .
That would be one. The second one I wanna make sure I get the, the names right, is called , um, it is called the Chocolate Conversation. Okay . Lead, be Lead Bittersweet Change, transform Your Business, and it's by a woman named Rose Foss . And I like that one because I really think it, it helps people understand the way different people that , that people perceive the world world differently.
And the way I see things aren't necessarily the way you see things. And even something as simple as the word chocolate can have different meanings to different people. And then the third one would be it doesn't hurt to ask using the power of questions to communicate, connect and persuade. And it is by Trey Gowdy . Um, some people may recognize that name as a former , um, congressman.
What I would say is it's not a political book and regardless of your political persuasion, it's well worth reading. And the reason I think it's so important is I think if, if I could come up with a keystone habit that leaders could do that would have the greatest impact on their, their performance and their effectiveness, it would be asked more questions. Hmm .
And I think, and , and ask the right questions in an effective way. So I think that book really does a lot to , um, to help understand the importance of questions and how to ask questions.
Okay. That's great. No , thank you. No , I love, I love the three books and I love just your description of each one of them . That was a really nice synopsis, so thank you. Um, how about I'm not, and and I'm not sure if you listen to a lot of podcasts, but if you do, what are two podcasts , um, that you're currently listening to now and that you enjoy?
I don't listen to a lot of podcasts. I do listen to a lot of books on tape. Um, I, I am, that's how I do most of my reading. Right . Listening. And a , a good book for me is one where I've been compelled to also buy the, the written version so I can look back and look things up. Um , I do , uh, the Harvard Business Review does some podcasts occasionally, and I listen to those.
Um, I'll tell you three of my favorite authors that all do, I don't know if they all do podcasts mm-hmm . , but they all have done Ted Talks and they're worth looking up and listening to their Ted Talks. One is Simon Sinek, he's best known for Start With Why , but he's got another book about playing the Infinite Game. Mm-hmm . that I think is really good. Um, Brene Brown. Mm .
She is a, she's an author, she's also a social worker, a professor of social work at the University of Houston. And my first two bosses were social workers. Hmm . Because of the industry I was working anyway . Sure . And what I, what I found over the years, I don't think I realized it at the time, but as I've worked with other people, is they were excellent leaders.
And I think it's because they were trained in the People Dynamics piece and somebody that's been trained in that human dynamics, interpersonal relationships, that whole piece, and can set expectations and hold people accountable. Mm-hmm . , they can do kind of both sides of that continuum. Right, right. I think we're excellent leaders and, and so I really like her approach.
I think she's somebody who, who probably can do both. And then the third is Daniel Pink. Mm-hmm . . Um, probably my favorite book by Daniel Pink is Drive, and I think he's got some TED Talks as well.
Oh yeah. That's great. Wow. No , this is really, this is very helpful for me too. So I'm gonna have to listen back and jot down some notes, so, no, that's awesome. So , um, last couple of things and so is what would you tell your 16 year old self today?
You know , I thought about that. I have thought about that a lot. And that's one I don't have a great off answer to . Probably would be take more risks.
Okay .
, uh, take more risks and , um, have more fun.
There you go. Good for you. That ,
That's what I tell. I'm always, I think I tell The's what I tell , um, younger people, like my niece and nephew , um, everybody's always telling, be careful, work hard, you know, study, get and I'm telling , have fun. Do all of those things and have fun.
Yeah, that's right. There you go. It's, yeah, you don't want, you don't want life to, you know, you don't wanna spin around a few times and you find yourself in a situation where your college days are over, you're just starting to work. And, and I know with my having daughters in their twenties now, they're like, you know, okay, well, so what am I gonna do now at work?
Well, you're gonna work every week Monday through Friday, and you're probably gonna do this for the next 40 years. And their , their , their responses are rather interesting , um, depending on the day and depending on how, how their work life went. But it's interesting when you look at it too. Um, how about the last layup one for you? I think everybody's got one in their back pocket. Um, favorite eighties band.
Oh wow. You know what my friends say about me. Um, and when it comes to music, they say, I like anything square . My , um, my brother would and niece and nephew were riding in my car the other day and, and my brother said, your music is just one step above dad's. And my 24 year , four year old niece said, I like Papa's music better. So eighties , eighties band, I can tell you.
Um , so I'm clearly not real into music. Uh , I, the Eagles, I don't know if they were eighties or not, but they are probably one of my favorite bands. And then I always liked the , um, shoot, I'm blocking on 'em now. Um, can't think of, I can't think of who it , who they are. I saw them in college and they were ancient. I thought they were ancient then, and
Oh, . That's great. Um , yeah, but I'm pretty sure the Eagles, what's that? Beach
Boys.
Oh, there you go. Yeah . Beach Boys. Yeah , that's a classic. So, and then the Eagles, I think that is definitely an eighties band. So , um, as we wrap up, so if people want to talk to you more and find out about , about more about what you do, how can they find you?
Where can they look for you online or email address, whatever you wanted to share, so much so the audience can reach out to you and ask you more questions.
So the website is action strategies.com. So action strategies.com is the website. Um, I am pretty active on LinkedIn that, that , um, it's just, if you search Julie Chance and Dallas, you'll probably find it or Julie Chance Action Strategies, you'll probably find it. Um, so that's a great way to connect. The phone number is (972) 701-9311 . And email is J Chance just J c h a n c [email protected] . Correct .
Any of those ways are a great way to, to reach out and , um, you know, feel free to, to reach out on LinkedIn or, or to email. Um, either way is great.
Okay . That's great. Well, thank you so much, Julia. I loved, it's, it's kind of fun because we know each other a little bit through a , um, a servant leadership organization called Business Navigators. But , um, it's really nice to do this because I think I learned a lot about you and I learned a lot about just the , the whole spectrum of talent management and why that's so important.
So with that , um, I'm going to, we're gonna sign off for now, but thank you so much. And again , uh, this is Mark Mitford with HR Catalyst, and I enjoyed the conversation. Thanks so much for your time, Julie, and we'll look forward to having our next guest on next month. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.
Thanks for having me.
You're welcome. Thanks, Julie. Bye-bye. Bye.