Tom , thanks so much for joining me today. It's great to have you on a guest on our podcast series on Eight Ways to HR Excellence.
Well, it's only fair for turnabout to be fair play, right? I mean, you've been on my podcast a couple of times, so I am happy to come and, and provide , uh, what little bit of knowledge I have. Uh , do you , well,
I think that little bit of knowledge, Thomas , is somewhat, somewhat understated. So I think you have a, you have a tremendous amount of knowledge, and I actually wanted to talk to you about that next. So tell me a little bit about your business and how did you get started in your business? So tell me that story.
Sure. Um, I mean , uh, that's a , it's a long and sorted story. Let me see if I can boil it down for you. Um, I have been what most people would call a serial entrepreneur. I have owned and had transactions for a hundred businesses in my career. And when I, yes, I , you , that number is correct. Actually, now , uh, I have to increase that because I've got 103 businesses. I currently own three businesses, so , so I've owned 103, and I've transacted the rest of them.
So , um, when I sold my last company , um, I started thinking about exit strategies in general for businesses. And what I discovered was that , uh, an alarming statistic, and that is that only 17% of the companies that attempt a transaction want to sell, need to sell, have to sell, actually cross a finish line and close a transaction. And I started to get nostalgic about the fact that we had been successful a hundred percent of the time with our businesses.
And I wondered why is it that we've been successful and most businesses aren't. Uh, and so , uh, my, my team and I put together a , um, a strategy that we've used to prepare businesses for exit and mastery partners was born. We consult with business owners typically three to five years before they want to exit their business.
And by the way, we're agnostic about , um, the type of exit, whether they want to sell it internally or externally, to, to, to their children, to the next generation or to their managers, or to an esop, or if they want to do an organized , uh, shutdown , if they want to sell to a strategic partner or private equity, we don't care. What we want to do is help business owners think about and define what their ideal exit looks like, and then we can help them get there.
So we're a consulting practice that helps businesses define and execute their ideal exit strategy. Great .
Oh , that's perfect, NoDa . Thanks for sharing that, Tom. And , and of course, for, for audience who actually is, are gonna be seeing this , uh, Tom, and I've had the pleasure of getting, we've known each other for years. Our, our, our families have known each other for years, our wives, and so it's been great. So I'm looking, really looking forward to the conversation today.
So , um, with that, I wanted to see specifically, we wanted to talk about strategic planning today, and I wanted to understand, Tom, so if you could define, I know there's, there's probably thousands of business books around the strategic planning and this process itself, but if you can try to distill that down to, you know, a couple of sentences, or in your words, of course, how would you define the process of strategic planning for our audience?
So, to me, yeah, I mean, I don't know that there's a textbook definition of strategic planning, but, but the way I look at it and the way we look at it with our clients is really almost what I just described about what our business does take a snapshot of somewhere in the future. You know, strategic planning typically is, you know, three years out.
You want to define where you want to be three years out, and then you can understand the steps that you need to take today in order to achieve those goals. Um, you know, so many businesses and business owners operate day-to-day without thinking about what does the future hold. And so to me, strategic planning is taking a step back from working in your business for typically a couple of days and really getting very clear about where you want to go with this business.
Because if you can set a clear direction and then you can communicate that direction to your employees, then everybody can help paddle the boat in the, in the same direction. Uh, and so to me, strategic planning is all about taking a step back so that you can look into the future and get very clear about where you want to be so that you can define your course , uh, going forward.
Great. Thanks so much. So, so given that backdrop and that definition, Tom, how often should a , uh, gosh, let's say, I don't know, a , a 20, 30 million company with 150 employees, how often should that company conduct a strategic planning session?
I think at least annually. Um, because , uh, you need to, you know, if you, if you set the direction, and let's say you set a three year or a five year direction for the business, at least annually, you need to go back and assess, are the marketing conditions changing? Is there anything changing about our business that , uh, that we need to, to change the Mark A. Little bit?
Are we getting there faster than we thought we would so that, you know, perhaps we can change and adjust, or if something happened in the economy or in our marketplace that have caused us to veer off course, that way you can at least get right back on course. You know, so many times, mark , business owners will go through the process of strategic planning, and then they put it on a book , uh, and leave it on the shelf and don't really pay any attention to it.
Really, a great strategic plan is meant to be lived and breathed, and, and so it should ebb and flow, and you need to have those check-in points to make sure that, that you're following the plan and that you have the resources that you need to achieve the plan. So I think an annual refresh is probably a good cadence.
Great. Thanks. Uh, thanks for that. So how well would you say your clients, you know, you know, if you're looking at your , you're a middle market size company, how well do you say with your wealth of experience, do they do strategic planning?
Uh, you mean as a whole, all the, the , uh, the middle market businesses, how well do they , uh, on average do strategic planning?
Yes. Do they, you know, is it, is it, do most of them do that kind of naturally and on a regular basis? Is do you find some have never done it during the, the , the lifespan of their company,
Most would get a solid B minus , you know, they might pass , uh, but they would get a solid , uh, D minus in that regard. Uh, I don't think they give Ds anymore. I have a, I have a child in college still, and I think it's a B and fail or something like that. Okay .
. Oh , interesting.
Uh, but a , B , C and fail or something like that. But , um, but I think most businesses don't really take the time to do that. And, and it's partly because it's not a natural thing, you know? Mm-hmm . A lot of , uh, businesses, you know, are, are still owned by the founder. They started that business. They were the only employee. Uh, they work outta the garage and next thing you know, they wake up and they've got 250 or 500 employees, or a thousand employees, and they're in multiple states.
But, but sometimes it wasn't, you know, strategic that, you know, the strategic decisions that got them there. It was market conditions or driving ambition or whatever. And so it's almost not enough a part of the fabric of what companies should be thinking about. I mean, there's, there are 6 million businesses that employ people that are under a hundred million in revenue.
And perhaps the larger the business, 80, 90, a hundred million in revenue, the more likely it is that they're , that they take time to do some strategic planning. But those companies that are 5, 10, 20, 20 5 million, a lot of times they got there organically and, and haven't really taken the time to, to get into a cadence of stepping back, thinking about the future and being very strategic about your direction.
Now, that said , uh, we force a hundred percent of our clients into a strategic plan every year so that we can think through , uh, what comes next, what do we need to do, you know, we try to get them to focus on the endpoint , and then we've got a process to get 'em back to where we are today.
Right. No, that's great. And I know you, you know, I know in , in knowing you and working with you that I know a lot of companies, ideally in an ideal state , you'd, you'd be looking at having a strategic planning session of at least a day, perhaps a couple of days, depending on the complexity, the size of the business. I , if an organization only had a half a day to do strategic planning, and let's say , you know, Tom, this is all we can afford to do here.
What would you say are the top three to five basics they need to try to cover in that half day session to make sure they're coming out with a good outcome at the back end of it?
Well, how ironic, you just sat through a half day , uh, , I did planning session that I facilitated this weekend for a , for an organization. Uh, you know, they're a volunteer organization, and so therefore , uh, they don't have the ability to take two or three days and go out and, and , uh, and be strategic and, and think. So as we, I've done that particular organization's , uh, uh, strategy session each year for about the last six or seven years.
And , um, so there are ways to kind of shortcut the process a little bit. You'll want it to happen organically in the room because there's genuine power of minds coming together and differing opinions and different thoughts , uh, that can come together and cause people to move and come up with new, brilliant ideas and things like that. But there are certainly some things that you can do in advance, and it's what we've done with , uh, this organization , um, uh, business navigators.
It's , uh, local strategic , uh, or servant leadership organization. So we poll the members in advance, we poll the leadership team in advance, and we ask them , uh, questions about the future. We ask them, you know, what are the most important things that we can accomplish? And, and some of these are questions that if you had two or three days, you'd show up day one, and you'd start talking about those ideas and let them happen organically.
But if you've only got a short amount of time, you need to get answers to that in a , in , in advance. What are, what does our SWAT analysis look like? You know, our strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. You have to understand where you are in the marketplace. What does , uh, what is , uh, something that we can accomplish or that we should accomplish in the next year? If I think three years down the road, what, where do we want to be? What target do we want to be at?
Now when I do facilitate , uh, some like that, you get a, a , a wide variety of answers , uh, to a survey like that. But then you try to harmonize and distill it, bring it together so that as a team in a half a day, you can focus on the two or three most important things that will move the needle for the organization, or in this case , uh, for the business. Right. Uh , and , and, and what is it that we want to accomplish?
If you can, if you walk in the door knowing that you've already got two or three things, then you can very quickly hone in on those things and start making , uh, strategies and plans.
Okay , great. Thank you. Who should , so given that, and given the size of the companies, I know that some of them that the companies you work with, Tom and the , that , that I work with occasionally, it's, you know, they , they don't have a really big leadership team.
So my next question is, who should be, who is critical to be involved in this strategic planning session to make sure you , you have enough of a, you know, you, you , you have a , a good facet of the organization that can be involved in that process from the multiple disciplines within a business.
What would you say, if it's a, you know, a company that's a hundred people and that has a, a leadership team o of X amount, what would you say are some of the mandatory people that actually need to be in the strategic planning session to make sure it's productive?
I think it's the, the key , um, leaders of your revenue centers , uh, the key leaders of your operations centers. So it , let's say as a great example of software company, you want people there from your product development, from your , uh, help desk, you know, support. You want , uh, leaders in sales and marketing.
Uh, and you certainly need , uh, executive leadership, you know, the chief financial officer, the, the C E O. Uh, don't leave out HR because HR is an important piece of , uh, planning. Um, and a lot of people do that. You know, I , you already know this cuz you and I have talked about this a lot. A lot of small companies leave HR out of that leadership , uh, circle. And it's really important to include , uh, HR because that encompasses the whole company, right? And so, right .
Uh, so I think that the, you know, wherever your key operation centers are and absolutely you have to include your key revenue centers wherever you're generating the most revenue, you've gotta include the key people out of that. Now, it can get unwieldy. You know, our, the strategic planning, that session that we had this weekend had , you know, 25 people on the list cuz they were all, you know, committee chairs and board members and, and things like that.
Um, but , um, you , you want to keep it a a , a small enough manageable group, but it's gotta touch the entire company. And together you can think about decisions we make for the future of the product that we're making. If we're making a product or, or developing software or whatever. Well, we've gotta have the entire team behind it. If we make a change to software, we've gotta get our help desk behind it.
We've gotta get our, our sales and marketing team behind it, you know, and this gives an opportunity to get everybody rowing the ship in the same direction. You know, one of the, one of the common , um, uh, analogies that I use with our clients is if, if you haven't set the direction, if you haven't , uh, gone up to the bridge and pointed to the direction that we're going outward , see that dot on the land, that's where we're heading.
Everybody's still rowing as fast as they can, but they're all rowing in different directions. Uh, and so, so I like to say, stop, here's where we're going, and now everybody pull in the same direction. And it's amazing how much faster the boat gets to where it needs to go. Right? And so , uh, so to me, a strategic planning session, because strategy encompasses everybody.
Now you've got buy-in of all of the departments, if you include all the people, if you know, the other side of the equation is a lot of times I see , uh, A C E O or a c E O and one or two , uh, very close advisors set the strategy, and then sometimes it fails miserably , um, uh, on implementation because it was really developed in a vacuum and nobody's bought into whatever it is that the outcome is supposed to be.
And so I'm a big fan of including the right people, because then you get buy-in, right? You get buy-in, every department has had a chance to participate , uh, and, and what the direction is. And now they're all bought in on where we're going. And so we can, they can help get there, you know, but you can also carry that down further. You know, once you set that strategic direction, let's say that you make a key decision, well, then it could be carried out further into the departments.
And even each department could have a short half day session, okay, here's our mandate. Um, what ideas do you have around how we can get there? Right now you're getting into the tactical pieces , uh, as opposed to the strategic , uh, pieces. And then you get buy-in on the, on the department level toward the strategic goals as well. And then everybody's pulling in the right direction, not just the leadership team. I hope that, I hope that was not confusing the way I worded that.
No, I don't think so. I think it's really fascinating. It's , um, I , I wanted to ask you, and you may have just touched on it, but I, I , I wanted to just make sure I reinforce that for the audience. So what would you, you say you , you , you talked about now that the, the , the composition of the, the people who need to be involved in that, in that , um, session itself.
But what are, you know, what would you find, and you know, you know, you're a master at this, so when you've done strategic planning processes, what are , what are the biggest things that you've found that can actually derail the Strat , the , the session, the actual session itself, or make the session, you know, a , a , a complete failure? Are there times where you've actually seen it go so bad?
And what, what are those, what are those two to three watchouts that, that organizations need to video , especially if they haven't done a strategic planning session before to try to hedge their bets to be more successful?
Yeah. There are certainly some ways to, to completely , um, derail, get off, you know, get off the track and go in a , in a terrible direction. And in fact, you run the risk of it being more damaging. So, so , um, that includes things like naysayers. You know, people who are in the room who are, every time someone comes up with an idea, oh, we already tried that, or , uh, you know, it's, every idea has to be valid.
We don't have to validate the idea, but every idea is valid because genuinely in a session like this, someone will come up an idea, and it might be a hair brained , you know, something that is never gonna happen, but it spurs an idea across the room with somebody that suddenly an idea starts taking shape.
And, you know, 20 minutes later through discussion, you take this what appeared to be a crazy idea and turned it into something that is executable and manageable and measurable , uh, and, and has a , uh, a great chance of success. But a lot of times that creativity gets completely derailed when people are just shutting each other down or not paying attention, not having one conversation in the room. Uh, and so , uh, I like to say, look, no judgment on anything that happens in here.
Let's just talk openly and freely and then we'll figure out where to go. Uh, and the other, another thing that can derail it and um, uh, I've seen this happen frequently is , uh, if you lose focus, right? Mm-hmm . , if you have a big unwieldy group like we had on , uh, Saturday, right ? Which, I mean, it's not an unwieldy group.
These are all great people, they're all servant leaders, but sometimes suddenly people get into sidebar conversations and they're not paying attention to what we're trying to solve. And, and there needs to be somebody in the room who can stop that and get everybody focused because , uh, when those things happen, you could lose a great opportunity to really spur some great creativity and get some problem solving going on , uh, when people get distracted. So distractions are a problem. Mm-hmm.
, uh, naysayers are a problem. Uh, and, and , uh, or, or coming into it, here's the probably the biggest thing, mark coming into it with an attitude of, well, this is gonna be a waste of my time, or, right . Or, or we're gonna , here we go again. We're gonna do, we're gonna waste a day, and then we're not gonna do anything. Uh , I had a, a conversation with a , uh, with a prospective client even just this morning Hmm .
Who , who who said , uh, he, his business had made it to the , um, Inc. 5,003 times in a row. And he said to me, he said, yeah, this is the last year we'll be able to do that because it's just getting out of reach. Because, you know, as the company gets bigger and it's really all based on percentages, that it's gonna be hard. And I just said, hold on one second, and if I could react to that, I said , uh, if you believe that you can't, then you're right. So, so why so true , right? Yeah .
So true. So everybody's gotta come in with an open mind and, and realize that we can change the world in one day or a half a day , uh, and change the outcome. Um, and , and I don't know if it's gets too far, you can , uh, stop me if you prefer, but I can give a couple of examples of outcomes that, that were astonishing , uh, after strategic planning session. Does that, would that be
No, that, that would be great. It would be great. Cuz we're, we're gonna wind down the questions here in just a minutes . So I'd , I'd love to, I'd love to get your thoughts on, on what are some of the results and the outcomes of the sessions you've been part
Of. Oh, sure. Um, you know, I just, I think back to , uh, to clients that , uh, that we've done work with and , um, when they sit down to do this strategic planning, there's always a , a little bit of a edge of doubt and, you know, are we gonna be able to achieve this?
And you start thinking about, but then you start, I , if a , if a strategy session , uh, is the, is conducted properly, you can get all the way down to tactics , um, and , um, and really think about what are those key things that we need to , uh, do and what do we need to change? What are the things we need to monitor? What are the KPIs, the key performance indicators we need to look at?
And I've got a great example of a , of a client that , um, that as we started drilling into , uh, why our revenue was not growing as rapidly as it should have, and we just, just started asking questions , uh, suddenly the light bulbs start coming on. And, and the leadership team started realizing, oh, well, we're not measuring this. We're not paying any attention to it. And when we, it , it was just one of the, the key drivers in their business, just a, a key metric.
But so many times people don't measure those KPIs. And so, so in this particular case, they started measuring that K P I , and guess what? It started changing . Uh , instead of our average job being this size, suddenly it started growing right? Until suddenly, you know, a year later they've grown at 50%. And then the year after that, they grew another 40%. And then the year after that, they grew another 40%.
But it's because as a result of the strategic planning session, they're paying attention to the right things , uh, and not, they've always worked hard. They've, they've always had an incredible company, but if you, if you want to grow, then you've gotta pay attention to certain things and they figured it out. And that's different for every company, by the way.
Uh, but they figured out , uh, uh, through just thinking through the whole strategy, what those KPIs are, started measuring them, and then improvements started. And so that's really what charges me up about helping companies. It's not the result that we get then it's looking back a year later and going, wow, look at what we were able to accomplish. Uh, because we set a goal, we set a target, and we're moving in the right direction.
Cuz , you know, as the Cheshire cat would say, if you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there. Well, that's a terrible way to manage a business, figure out where you're going, and then drive with intent to where you want to be. And the way to do that is with strategic planning.
Right. Uh , that's great. And that is great. So , um, one more question for me, and then I had a couple of fun ones for you to sum the , and this question. So if, if a , if an business owner has seen this today, they've got the sales pitch, they love what they're hearing , um, what would you say to close the deal with them? What would you say would be the top three reasons that na and they haven't done strategic planning before?
What would you say are the stop , the top three reasons they need to start doing it now?
Oh, boy. Uh, if I, if I had a opportunity, I'd probably list a hundred things. But again , it is the, the, the most important thing is to have a clear direction about where you want to go, about where you want to be with your business. You know , um, of course, as I mentioned at the beginning, we help business owners , uh, design and execute their ideal exit strategy. And with very little exception, a growing company , uh, always is more valuable than a flat or declining business. Mm-hmm . .
Uh, and so it really helps you step away, get very focused on the future. It helps you , uh, number one. Number two, it helps get the whole team moving in the right direction. Uh, and, and , um, and number three , um, it gives you some ways to measure your success. Uh, and so , uh, to me, those are the, are the clear , uh, walkaways from doing a strategic plan.
Uh, and , um, and I would be happy to, to talk with any of your listeners about what does that look like and, and how do you pull it off? Uh , because there's a lot of books out there on strategic planning that you can go out and d i Wyatt if you want, right? The point is, is you've got to go do it. You've got to go do it. Set aside, now do it .
Yeah. That , that's huge. Now , it's , uh, no , this conversation has been hugely insightful, Tom. It's like you're, you're , you're , you've got such a wealth of knowledge. And the other thing too, knowing your background, you have sat you , you haven't been a consultant your entire life. You've actually been in large successful organizations, you've been in middle market organizations and you've helped to continue to grow them.
So you've, you've continued to actually, you've been much more of a practitioner sitting in the top seat for years, and now you've decided to share some of the wealth of knowledge with others and in your consulting practice. So , uh, so with that, let's finish up and have a couple of, let me, let me get a, let me get , let me throw a couple of fun ones at you , . I , I know Tom, that you are a voracious reader.
Yes. So what would you say, and I'm only gonna give you three again, this will be the tough thing for you, the three, three business books or books in general that have had the most impact , um, audio on your, on , uh, on yourself and why?
Oh , golly.
Only three, sir.
Uh , so , uh, when you, when you say that I'm a voracious reader, you know, your , your audience doesn't know me yet, but I read 40 or 50 books a year, right? And, and , um, so the, the business books that have had the most impact on me , um, uh, I'm gonna have to say , um, the most profound one, at least in recent times, right?
Um, and I , cuz I only stumbled onto this series probably two years ago, but I've reread the books many times , uh, is , uh, a badass by Jensen chro , and it's all about, you know, getting at the, the mental blockers that we put up that keep us from achieving the results that we want to achieve. When there are no real roadblocks, we create those roadblocks in our mind, and it's about knocking those down a brilliant series.
You know, I've, I have read that book over and over and over and , um, and love it. Uh, and hmm , I give it away as gifts. Uh, and , um, and , um, I think it's just, just hugely , uh, beneficial to anybody in any walk of life. Uh, and so, Jensen Cheryl , she's a , a brilliant author. Um, uh, if I dig da back deeper that I've read, you know, a book that has stuck with me for, for 30 years is , uh, focused by Al Reese . I don't even know if that's still available.
Uh, but it's all about , um, um, really focusing your business on your specific target, you know, moving in the right direction that way as opposed to , um, you know, the way many business or entrepreneurs are, you know, just chasing after every opportunity. It's being, you know, focus on your goal , uh, with blinders on. I think that that is a brilliant concept and I love it.
And I, I don't even know if it's in print anymore, but , uh, I think it is, in fact , um, I think that there might even be a , a newer addition , uh, of that. Um, and okay, third , um, , could , could I cheat and call it one of my books,
? Sure. No, go for it . No , there's , there's , there's no harm in that, sir. You're my guess . So, you
Know, yeah, I could, I could cheat and call maximize business value. Uh, the book I , uh, wrote three years ago, or the Maximize Business Value Playbook, which is 65 specific things business owners can do to improve the value of their business. Uh, I think those are, are , uh, important books to read. Are they the best books I've read? Uh , if I was being completely honest with you, I'd have to say no, but they are important books for business owners to
Read. Yeah , no , and I love, I personally love the playbook too, because it is so, because it's , it , it's, it really is, it's a playbook. Yeah. And very , it's very simple, very, it , it's short, it's short vignettes about which the immediate actions you can take to improve your business and improve its
Value. Yeah. It's got 65 chapters and no chapter. I think the longest chapter is like four pages, . Uh, and so I think somewhere in here I talk about how to read this book, and it's, it's not meant to be read, cover to cover. It's, you know, if you got a problem in finance, we'll go to the finance section and do the , read these six chapters, right? And , and that kind of thing. So , uh, so that's the way the, the book was designed and that just came out a , a couple weeks
Ago. Yeah. No, that's great. I let know , it's really a great book. So I highly, I highly endorse , uh, Tom's book also. Um, couple last questions here before we let you go and find out where we can find you at and our audience can find you at. So , um, so what advice would you give your 16 year old self today?
You're killing me. Um, don't be so arrogant. Um, ,
I know there's lots of things you'd like to share with yourself when you're 16 that you know now, Tom.
Yeah. You don't know everything and stop pretending like you do, and you're gonna realize at some point , um, how much you don't know, and you're going to start doing , uh, you know, better on it, but , uh, don't be so , um, uh, hard on other people. Um, and , um, and really , um, uh, don't waste time. Don't waste time. Time is an , a precious commodity, way more valuable than money. Um, if I, if I lose money and I still have time, I can make that money back, right?
And so , uh, so time is a precious commodity. I think those are the three most important things that I would tell my 16 year old self.
Great. And how about , uh, and I know you, you're a , you're, you're a, a , a really good musician yourself, and you love, you've got a very musical family. So , uh, favorite , um, favorite eighties band?
Oh, that's easy. Divo .
. There
You go. I was, I was alternative, of course, you know, Divo , now as I go back and , and listen to some of that music, you know, they were, they were avant garde, they were out there, right? And they're, they're not remotely out there, you know, by today's standards. But , uh, but I mean, I could, I was a DJ in the eighties, and so , uh, so I could list off any number, but, but Devo changed my life, so love that . Love their music.
Oh , that's great. So , uh, so how can people find you? Where can they find you online or how do they get in touch with you to talk to you a little bit more? If some of the things we've talked about today you've, they found are pretty intriguing, they wanna talk more with you?
Super easy on LinkedIn. It's just Tom Bronson, b r o n s o n. Uh, you can find me at , uh, mastery Partners. It's Master with a y mastery partners.com. In fact, on our website, there is a button you can click and schedule a call directly with me. Uh, so , uh, so you can do that right on that website.
Um, and , uh, otherwise , um, uh, you know , um, any one of our other , uh, businesses, the Business Transition Summit, you can find me there , uh, as well , uh, and Mastery Mergers and Acquisitions , uh, available there. But , um, but yeah, and right on our website, by the way, so people don't have to write it down. Now, if you go to mastery partners.com, my cell phone is right there too. You can call myself .
Okay, that sounds great. Well, apprec yeah, again, Tom, thank you so much. This has been, I've learned several things today and we've known each other for over 20 years. And , um, this has been a really, really good , uh, good session with you. Appreciate your time and, and I look forward to, I , I love to hear about your business growth, and I'd love to see how you're helping , uh, our audience and business owners to maximize the value of the business. That's awesome to hear.
So thank you so much again for your time, Tom, and for all of our audience out there, we'll look forward to talking to you , uh, in the near future. Thanks so much. Bye-bye.
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