Hello to everybody. Just good to see you today and Great. Uh, we're looking forward to a great conversation with a , uh, professional colleague that's based in the Houston, Texas area K Natal. So, Kay , I'd love to be able to start out with you telling us a little bit about what do you do professionally.
Hi, mark . Great to be here . Thank you so much for the invitation. Um, yeah, so professionally I work in the talent management space, so predominantly looking after performance management, succession planning, career progression or talent mobility as it's now, now dubbed. So that's kind of where I've been for as well as learning and development. Um, been there for the last 10 or so years, and prior to that was part of hr, doing all HR business partner kind of work.
Um, so have a good view of many, many things including performance management. So this is an exciting topic.
Okay, that's great. Wow. So I've got a That's wonderful. I've got such a subject matter expert in front of me here. So, so how, just outta curiosity, Kate , how did you decide, because you become a little more focused on performance management, what was kind of that driving force to get you to, what was that intrigue or excitement to you to get you started in performance management as that focus area for you?
Actually, it's really interesting because performance management has always been something that I've been interested in, even when I was at , um, university or college. Uh, just the topic always interests me. How do we get better as individuals? How do we improve and how does that have an impact on the business?
So it's always been interesting and when, you know, you go into the work environment and you see performance management in action , um, especially in the earlier years before it's changing, it wasn't exactly how I had anticipated it would be lots of individuals that don't particularly like it and don't wanna do it. , , all you hear is that's time consuming. I'm like, all right , . So I got a lot of that.
And , um, I think when I moved into learning and development and started to actually really concentrate on learning, did I really understand the , the importance of performance management , um, and how it kind of links into career growth and all those pieces. Um, so it's really become a focus point. It's really important. Whenever I'm in talent management, it's the first piece that we start with because everything else is hinged on it.
So , um, that's kind of why it's, it's just really important and how I've kind of progressed that way. It's interesting how time tells.
Oh, that's fascinating. That's fascinating. So when you think about it, so for anybody in the audience that really doesn't have a good definition for performance management, how would you, for an , if you were going to be looking at a client opportunity and talking to them about performance management, how would you define performance management for those in our audience? Just that they can get a really, a professional definition of that.
I'm not quite sure about professional definition, but I'll give you a plain and simple definition of what I think it is that works too . Performance , performance management. Individuals often just think it's performance reviews and the annual review, and that's the extent of performance management, but it , it's not, that's just a small piece of it. I think performance management is a cluster of functions that we do to grow and develop our employees in the business.
It can consist of many things, continuous feedback, regular one-on-one conversations, coaching, goal setting, clarification of expectations, it's career growth. It's all these pieces that we call performance management. And whether your company chooses to do an annual review or not, that's just one small piece of it. Um, it's actually multiple pieces that we do over a course of a year throughout an employee's journey. So definition of performance management.
There are multiple pieces that consist of performance management that you need to be thinking of as you go forward.
Right. Oh, that's great. And so it really, for organizations that you haven't worked with that are , excuse me, but ha organizations that actually haven't done this before because it has so many facets to it. Where where do you recommend as a good starting point in actually starting this journey, that performance management type of process?
I think the best place to kind of start is with our, your regular one-on-ones. Those are the start of many conversations. So building your managers to have a regular cadence , um, getting your employees involved, having them be empowered to drive and, and, and have those conversations with managers, I think is the first step.
Um, once you've kind of built the cadence and they're having these conversations, it becomes easier to do feedback, it becomes easier to do coaching, it becomes easier to talk about goals. Um, it just becomes easier as the, as the conversations progress, it becomes easier. So I think that's the best place to start, if you've have , the other thing is if you haven't had any managers that do one-on-ones or have never done one-on-ones, then you might wanna start with some training.
So getting managers what's best practice, what is , what does a one-on-one look like? How do they have those conversations? Right? That's kinda where I would start.
Okay. That's great. So those one-on-one conversations since you say are so critical. What is , um, so if you, I would assume you do quite a bit of training in this area. What would you say the key thing is that most managers actually don't get right about doing one-on-one conversations with their employees.
They don't have them the first thing.
There you go. That's probably helpful if you start doing them, right, ?
Yeah. That's the first thing is that I found managers that don't do them. That's the first , um, little hiccup. And my, my advice to new managers is always just put it on the calendar, set up a regular cadence and stick to it what you discuss, you'll get better at. Right . You know, there are things that you can do, but just, just get it on the calendar first. Get it on a regular cadence, get that moving and don't ever cancel. Right. Unless you absolutely have to.
Um, and that way you can show individuals that you're dedicated, you , it's their time mm-hmm. that you're not going to move them off the schedule because something, something else has come up that you need to take care of. Or if you do that, you explain, I'm gonna move it for this week and it's, and it's tomorrow instead of today. But I think that's the first thing that managers really need to do is build up their cadence and then they can start talking about start simple.
I know managers just generally talk about work, but start there. Right? Uh , but then start to l build relationships, listen, ask about developmental , um, opportunities that individuals are interested in. You know, where are their strengths, where are their weaknesses? Just, just getting started I think is, is a crucial step that managers take and they just don't, because they're either scared or they feel like it's not something that is valuable to them and their time. Mm-hmm .
, but it really is . So it's to , to get them there.
What you mentioned too , uh, while you're, while you were saying that I was thinking, so you mentioned cadence is really important in keeping that cadence. So what do you recommend is that , um, every two weeks, every month, what do you recommend for , uh, new, new organizations you're working with? What do you recommend that cadences to be in an ideal situation?
depends. , it depends on the manager, but, you know, I have found weekly is good though I do know that, ma , we sometimes we have teams of managers that have more than more individuals that they could possibly fit in in a week. So it becomes really difficult for them to have regular one-on-one conversations. So I tend to say every week, every second week, it would be great, right?
If you have an individual who is, you know, senior that perhaps doesn't need a check-in every week, maybe make them every third week or so mm-hmm . so that , um, you're still touching base with them, but they are a little more senior. You don't need to be a handholding too much, but new hires, you have to meet with them every week, maybe even every day .
Definitely has to be, be some sort of regular occurrence with new hires, individuals that are new to the role, new to your team, they need to be on a more regular cadence. Individuals that are struggling, obviously more regular. So I'd say stick to about a week , uh, maybe every second week. Mm-hmm . , depending on how big your team is, but at least once a month. But no , no less than that.
Right. I love what you said there too, around with new employees, that new hires, the , the more frequent, the better with new hires. And that's something that in the work that I do , um, that's something we definitely, we, we, we, we look at that onboarding period as a 12 week period and making sure that there's more frequency of meetings up front , and that's just so highly important. So I'm glad you kind of refirm that.
So , um, how about, you know, companies that are middle market size, you know, let's say lower middle market to middle market size companies, thousand employees, 500 employees. In your experience with working with those size companies, how well do they do performance management? All those facets that you've described?
I actually don't think it has to do with the, the size of the company. Okay . I think it has to do with the, the process that you've chosen. So I've given you a couple of examples. I think it really depends on a leadership. How vested are your leaders within a feedback culture with driving performance management? They need to walk the talk. They need to do those performance management tools. Mm-hmm . , they can't be sitting on the side, not doing their one-on-ones.
Um, it matters like their managers see it, their , uh, individuals, employees see it if they're not doing it, not practicing it. So it's really important that leaders do it. And then making sure that your managers and employees are vested. I think that's really important. Whether you're a large organization, small organization, middle, it doesn't matter. If you have those components , um, good process leaders are ready to go, then it'll be a successful process. Right.
So I think it doesn't matter about the size, just whether you have the right components.
Okay. That's great. And I'd also say, what about the, how do you feel, because you have been, you know, been doing this for, for a number of years, how do you feel around that? It's gotta be , uh, you know, a , a question around does it have to be leadership driven or does it have to be HR driven ? What is your opinion there?
Actually, I believe that everyone owns it. So there's just certain pieces of it. HR is generally the individuals who, who make sure it happens, right ? Gets it in place, puts the training in place. Leaders are the ones that support it. Managers are the ones that execute it , but ultimately I think the employees drive it. They are the individuals that seek feedback. They are the individuals that want understanding of their goals, career growth , um mm-hmm . .
So I think it's led a lot by employees. And I know that that's not common, but it needs to be like, how do you get managers and employees to drive the process together? Right. And that, I think, is really important because if you're both vested in it, then you'll both make sure that it happens. And I think that employees really wanna be involved.
Yeah. No , that's great that you say that too. And I think to me in a , in a, in an organization now that employees, I , I always, I , I think about the, you know, the employees in charge of their career and it's really up to them that, you know, if they're waiting for their manager who maybe manages 10 people to run their career, that Yeah . You know, it , it's like, yeah, you know, you're one employee, the manager may have five employees, 10, 15 employees, they, they that work for them.
You know, I , I always think about that too, that I'm , you know, to your kind of refiring that I think the employee really needs to drive that conversation and drive where their career's going.
Really. They do. And, and also just, you know, and I know it's scary and that's part of where learning comes into it, right? Is that, and showing individuals what it looks like. But you know, you need to be able to ask for feedback. What does that look like? Like, how do I get better? Don't wait for someone else to tell you what to do. Like, that's, that's the one thing, it's like your manager could tell you, but you might be waiting for a while , like you said, right ?
15 employees, you might be, you know, only schedule every one every month , um, ask, look at your career, get questions going, you're not sure. Um, you know, put all those pieces together. So I think it's really important that we empower our employees to do that. The more information they have, the more documentation they have, the better. And Right . It takes. And it alleviates the manager too.
I mean, I think managers have just been, you know, so it's you, it's you, you need to manage it, you do it, you push it. But I'm like , you don't have to work so hard. have , have your people do some stuff, right? Have them write the goals, come back, you know, is this what you want? Let's talk about it. Let's, let's see how this works for the business. You know, you don't have to work so hard as a manager, just get people vested in, in, in the process with you. Yeah.
That is so great. I love that . I love what you just said there too, that, yeah , at the end of the day, who actually owns your career? Is that your boss or is it yourself? So, yeah, when it gets down to cadence, you talked about earlier about cadence of one-on-ones. What about a formal review where there's actually gonna be written documentation and assessment?
Um, I know a lot of companies, and sometimes you cringe when you hear annually, but what is your recommendation annually, semi-annually, quarterly? What kind of recommendation do you have around the cadence of actually doing a formal type of review with an employee?
I think it depends on the organization, quite honestly. Like sometimes , uh, an annual review might work for them. Mm-hmm . , sometimes semi-annually, sometimes only once . And , but I've also been in organizations where you don't have a performance review. It is a summary of conversations that you've had over the last year. Right. So though it's still formal, but it's more of a wrap up that you have once a year. So that shouldn't really be as formal. It's just a split .
It's an extra conversation that we say, yay , we got to a point of this year. Let's sum up what we, where we're at and let's get ready for, for the next , um, portion of, of the journey, I suppose. So I think it really depends on the organization, what works for them. Uh, it depends what fits. Like sometimes annually fits for people. Sometimes it dozens .
I've worked with many sales organizations where they cringe if it's at the end of the year, cuz that's when they, they're wrapping up their lost sales and mm-hmm. , I'm like, I don't wanna get measured now sure . I'm still getting deals in . Um , you know, so it doesn't work for them. Uh , so what , you know, you gotta kind of figure out what works, what works the best and how formal you wanna make it.
How maybe it's semi if you're doing quarterly, maybe it's not as formal until you have a , a final at the end of the year. Right . So I think it , it just really depends on the company.
No, that , that's, that's, that's great to hear. So , um, it's interesting too because when , uh, in , in the work that , uh, you know , uh, that my organization does, it's funny because I always think that employees managers who are gonna give an employee a really negative review, they typically put those last and then you ask them, why do you put those last? Well, I really haven't told them that they've been doing a bad job all year or the last six months, and then I just cringe. Right.
And I'm sure you've seen that all the time. Well, if you were doing reviews like you recommend, it wouldn't be a surprise.
That's right. I call them no surprises. Like, you don't wanna, a performance review should never, if you're gonna , it should never be a surprise. And that's why I hinge so much on these one-on-one conversations, because it should never be a surprise. Isn't that dreadful? Like getting to a performance review and like, and you get told like, Hey, you weren't doing a good job for the last year, six months.
You could have had all this time to improve, to develop, to grow, and you're only finding out a year later. Right . How do you improve? I think it's such a disservice to employees to do that. Mm-hmm . . So that's why having these regular conversations where individuals feel safe to share feedback. Sure. It's okay to tell someone. It's actually easier to tell someone about a small thing when it happens, then bulking it all up until the end of the year.
Right. Oh, that's, that's so great to hear that too, because, and in some cases it's actually a disservice to the employee because if they don't have feedback, I always say, you know, employees can be very good, but they're not psychic. They may not know that they're doing a bad job until you tell them and give them very specific feedback about what they're not doing correctly.
Yeah. And I've never had anyone say, you know, oh gosh, that was terrible feedback. They're always like, oh, I didn't know. Or, you know what, so true. I was kind of , I wasn't sure. So thanks for pointing it out. Um, so it's, it's never gone as terribly as a manager's , um, predicted would go, it's just that we just don't do it regularly. Right . And that , I think that's, that's why we should be having these regular conversations.
You don't , you don't step onto a tennis court and just assume that you can play. You need to practice. So the same goes with feedback and, and regular conversations. You've gotta have them because it builds muscle and you get better at it. And then you won't have those difficult end of year conversations cuz it's a non-event . No surprise .
Right . Oh yeah, that's perfect. So, so do you have , um, like do you think that performance management, is it a system, is it a process? Is it both? What are your thoughts there? I
Suppose it could be both though. It's, which comes first? Mm-hmm. , I think is, is the fir the , the question. And I would say the process comes first because performance management, you can do without a system. Google Docs, OneNote, as long as you're keeping track, everyone has access to it and you're having meaningful conversations, I think that's more important than the system.
What happens with the system is sometimes you buy it and it it, it's not flexible enough for your process or it doesn't, or it hinders you from developing your pro your performance management strategy further than what it is today. So I think be careful and wary of buying a system to implement performance management. Right ? Cause that's, that limits you and you need to be, ha you need to be flexible. Mm-hmm. , it changes, your business changes.
Um, you can't buy a system that works today, that doesn't, that's , you can't change tomorrow. Or you buy a system that does only annual reviews and there's no, no one-on-one conversations that you can record. Then you have this bifurcated process and it , it just doesn't work for individuals, managers and employees want it to be easy. Mm-hmm . , everything's easy these days. We have app for everything. So it needs to be simple.
I think, you know, as HR individuals, if we're not thinking about keeping it simple, then we are hurting ourselves about getting it to work within
The
Organization.
Yeah. That is so true. That's so true. Well, you know what, we're gonna take a short break, Kay . So thank you so much. We're gonna take a short break and then we'll be back in a couple of minutes just to co continue the conversation with , uh, with , uh, the great conversation we're having with K Natal . Thanks so much.
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Okay. And we are gonna start back with our conversation with K Natal and , uh, Kay , thank you so much for the conversation we've had thus far about halfway through our , uh, our chat today. And so what I wanted to do is ask you next, if you were again , uh, if, if anybody who's listening to this podcast or watching it, if they have not done anything regarding performance management before, what would you recommend as a a subject matter expert in this area?
What would you recommend as three to five things that are the key things they need to include in a performance management process for it to be successful?
Great. I think that's, that's, that's awesome. And I think we've already kind of been speaking about it. If you haven't noticed, I'm one-on-ones is definitely one of the things you need to get in place. one-on-one conversations are key. Uh , you gotta put those in place. Um, feedback, whether you're using a system to collect feedback from individuals or, you know, making sure that individuals feel comfortable putting feedback into place or discussing feedback with peers and managers alike.
That I think is, is very, very important. And then I think it's just taking away the, the scariness of performance management is , uh, you know, letting individuals know that they're empowered to make these choices. They're empowered to talk about it. They don't have to wait for their managers. So I think communication is big too . I think it's, if you're talking about it once a year, it's in one ear and out the other. Um, it needs to be a constant thing.
So , uh, if you're in HR or you're a leader, you need to be talking about what regular conversations with individuals about, you know, setting those goals, making sure that individuals close goals out . I think that's another thing is that managers feel like goals are once a year. Uh, things, they're not they can be if that's, that's, there's no changes and that's what you're doing. But ultimately business changes and, you know, things get put on our plate, taken off our plate. Mm-hmm .
and goals need to change all the time. So , uh, as a leader, you need to make sure that individuals understand that, that they need to update their, their goals and Right . Make sure they're driving in the direction that you want them to be driving to . Right .
That's great . I think those
Are important things .
That's great. No, thanks for that. So, so what about if a process, you get the process going, of course there's a lot of excitement about getting this started. What , what happens? And, and I'm sure you found it in your experience. So what happens at that process gets derailed or starts failing? How, what are some things you can recommend that an organization do to get it back on track and get it back to where it needs to be?
I think first things first is to ask what happened. Like, how is it, how, why is it coming off the rails? like what, what is really happening? I think sometimes we're scared, you know, or we think we know. Sometimes we're like, oh yeah, I've done, I've seen this happen before at a prior organization or company. And sometimes it just isn't. So we need to just ask, you know, what, what is going on? Is it a subsection of a business that's coming off the rails? Is it everybody?
Um, you know, is it a certain piece of a , uh, the process that's not working? Uh, is it the system that's not working? Like we really need to dig into what's not working and then you can put in a solution. I think that's, that's really important. And the way that you would do that is collect feedback, speak to managers, speak to leaders, speak to employees, find out what's not going well and what they don't like. So that's the best way.
Sure. That's great. That's great. I wanted to run with something you just said too, and you said a little bit earlier in our conversation before we took our break.
So do you recommend that with all the systems and apps that are out there, do you recommend right up front that the organization needs to either purchase a specialty software for this or use, if they're using a , uh, an H R E S, you know, HR information system platform that has performance management module in it, do you recommend that everything be embedded into a tool , um, a software tool that they have a standalone or are using an H R I S system? What are your thoughts there?
No, don't go by a system . Okay . Without understanding your process first. Um, and I think, you know, but also people also need to explore what they have. So if you have a standing H R I S system, you know, get with a vendor, see what it looks like and how it works mm-hmm. , right. Um, and where you can make changes, because I think that's important because sometimes, you know, it's a standard. You only have an annual review. This is what it looks like and this is the standard process.
Um, ask what's coming down the , the roadmap . Like are they including regular one-on-one conversations? Is that being integrated into your performance reviews? How do they integrate goals? So I think there's a lot of questions that you should be asking if you have a current vendor , um, which direction are they taking performance management. Maybe it's just a side module.
And then you may wanna then think about, is this what you wanna do for performance management or should you consider a different system or a different app that you may use for performance management or any other talent management , uh, pieces. So I think there's a lot to consider when you look at systems. You don't just go out and buy one. Uh, make sure that it works for you now and into the future. And then if you currently have one, take a look at what it's got and how much can you change.
Right. Okay. That's great. So if a business owner has been watching this podcast and they're still, they haven't, they don't do performance management currently, they ha they're still not convinced. Um , what are three reasons they need to get started with this? You know, and I of course, I don't know when people are gonna watch this, but they need to get started within the next, you know, one or one to two months at least start moving in that direction.
What are three compelling reasons you would say that a business leader really needs to start putting this as a priority for their business?
I think, you know, there are many articles out there that will tell you all kinds of things. And I think the obvious are engagements. Your individuals will be engaged, retention, uptick, and culture. I think those are really, really important. But I think if you are a leader that really truly believes in people and developing people because people are the backbone of your organization, then I think you really need a look at performance management.
Performance management is just one of those pieces. Without it, people don't know which direction they're rowing in. They don't know whether they're doing well or not. They don't know whether they have options at your organization.
So with a performance management system, if you're having the right conversations, then individuals know they're guided, they're motivated to be there, they want to help you drive, they want to learn, they want to put what they're learning into practice, they want to grow with you. Um, so I think all the problems that we've been having with individuals leaving because of career opportunities means growth opportunities.
If we're not talking about it, if we're not sharing what we are good at and what you're not good at and and moving individuals in the direction that they're supposed to be going, then it's only a detriment in the long run. So the best start now, it's not hard to get started. Mm-hmm. , it grows from there. It's a process, but the best way is just to get started, get your managers talking, get your employees talking , um, capture those, that information and then move from there.
Right. Oh , that's awesome. Good for you. Now that, that's a really good , if that's a , that's a really, I don't wanna say a sales pitch cuz it's not a sales pitch, but it's really, it , it's really for improving. There's so many facets about this that is really about, like you said, employee engagement and employee engagement in most organizations is, is quite low for many reasons.
So even just getting employee engagement in those and having those conversations with employees, we have to remember that employees are people and having that conversation with those employees is, is gonna be huge. So , um, I'm gonna stop right there. Kay . But thank you so much. I'm gonna ask you gonna move over to a couple of fun things I want to ask you about , but thank you so much.
No problem. Thank you. Great questions. Yeah.
Yeah, they , they're , so thank you so much for your , uh, just the really good insights you've shared today. So , um, so we can, we're just gonna move over a couple of quick , uh, quit hitting , uh, quick hitting fun questions for you. So what are three books you did , they don't have to be on this topic, but they could be on other business related topics, but what are three books you would recommend that are that , that are must read for , um, people in our audience today?
Um, I have just finished Impact Players by Liz Weisman. So Okay . That clearly performance management, , who are your , who are your impact players? Um , I think is really good. I do like the First 90 Days, which is by Michael Watkins. So I think if you're looking either starting a new job or starting to look at performance management , um, in terms of growing new hires, then I think the first 90 days is, is a really good book to go with. And then I always like , uh, dere lead by Brene Brown.
So anything that that is opening about and just funny enough, she says, you know, unclear is unkind. So talking about performance management, if you're not clear, you're being unkind. So Sure. Um, go ahead and take a look at those are my, my three that I, that I really like.
Oh , that's great. That's great. I'm not sure if you're a podcast listener, but if you are, what are some, what are, what are a couple , uh, current , uh, authors that you enjoy listening to their podcasts?
Renee Brown's one of them, but there are a couple of others. Like , uh, brown Table Talk is really awesome if you haven't , um, done that. It's with , um, Madam Mallek and DC Marshall, and they're, they're talking about awesome content about breaking down the challenges for women of color that they face in the workplace and how providing practical tips. So that's a great, great talk. If you haven't, if you haven't , um, listened to that.
Converging Conversations is also great , uh, brings together people on many different topics. So that's, that's also a , a good one to listen to. Um, I also like , uh, work Life with Adam Grant just because he talks about all kinds of com all kinds of topics. Sometimes it's , uh, you know, work related , mostly work related , and sometimes it's not mm-hmm . . So I like it a good mix.
Oh , that's great. So you're, you're a very wor , very well versed podcast listener, that's for sure. You've got some great ideas there and some of the, some of the authors I have not heard of, so I've gotta go check those out too, so. Awesome . Um, last question for you. So given where you are today, what would you tell, what , what advice would you give to your 16 year old self?
I'd say stay the course. It's a fun and exciting ride. And when you get to college and they say you're gonna do hr, don't go, what is that ? It's all good. .
Oh , that is , it's
Fun and exciting. So funny.
That is great. Stay the course . I love that. So that is awesome. So it's , uh, yeah, that is, that is great. Well, I have truly enjoyed the conversation today. Kay . So we're, how can people, if they're interested in having further conversations with you, how can people find you online?
Uh, LinkedIn. Just reach out on LinkedIn and we can chat.
All righty. So it's K and it's Natal, so it's N A D A L . So just so folks, yeah . So that's great. So thank you so much K that it's been a , a really insightful conversation today. And , um, I hope everybody who listened to this got some really good nuggets because , uh, Kay shared a lot of great insights today about performance management and just the insights and just the facets of performance management because it is a process and it's something that's somewhat of a cycle.
And so if you don't do it now, if you haven't done it before, I hope you've heard a lot of compelling reasons today to get started sooner than later . So again, thank you so much for our audience. Thank you Kay , for the opportunity to get a chance to chat with you today and we'll look forward to , uh, catching up with our audience in a couple of months. Thanks so much. Bye-bye .
Okay . Thanks so much, mark .
Bye-bye . Bye .