¶ Intro / Opening
The end of the employer employee relationship is an inevitable part of running a business and requires special care. In this podcast. we'll cover some common misconceptions about the termination process and help, you know, the facts. Welcome to HRpreneur. I'm Jim Duffy. From main street to your street. The HRpreneur podcast is centered around helping small businesses like yours gain the knowledge you need from HR, payroll, and hiring to time, taxes, benefits, and insurance.
Today we'll talk with our guest Meryl Gutterman about myths surrounding employee termination. Meryl is senior counsel with ADP's HCM group. Hello there, Meryl. As always, it's great to have you back on our show.
Hi, Jim. Thanks for having me. It's great to be here with you as well.
¶ At-will employment
So let's address the first myth we'd like to bust. And that is at will employment means you can fire an employee for any reason.
This is a great myth to attack first. The truth is while at will employment basically means that the employer. or the employee may end the employment relationship for any reason, the reason must still be a lawful one.
So, for example, there are laws that prohibit employers from terminating individuals for exercising their rights under the law, such as taking job protected leave, and employers can't terminate an employee because of a protected characteristic, such as age or race or religion, disability, gender, national origin, or military status, for example.
So if an employer were to terminate an employee for engaging in protected activity or because of a protected characteristic, for instance, then they may be subject to a claim or a lawsuit regardless of the employee's at will status. And there are other ways other exceptions to at will employment as well That can be created by a contract or a statute or the courts or public policy so you have to pay attention to those as well.
Okay, meryl So I understand Montana is the only state that doesn't recognize at will employment. Could you please explain how Montana's law differs?
Sure. So in Montana, employers must have good cause to discharge an employee after the employee completes an initial probationary period. If an employer doesn't establish a specific probationary period, the probationary period is assumed to be 12 months from the date of hire, which the employer can then extend for up to 6 more months.
The law also has rules for notifying a discharged employee of any written internal procedures for the employee to file an appeal with the employer about a discharge. And the state also defines good cause as reasonable job related grounds for an employee's dismissal based on the employee's failure to adequately perform their job duties or the employee's disruption of the employer's operation.
Or the employee's material or repeated violation of an express provision of the employer's written policies or another legitimate business reason that the employer determines while they're using reasonable business judgment.
Thank you, Meryl. Very helpful.
¶ Final pay timing
The next myth I would like to ask you to address is the one that talks about final pay isn't due until the next regular payday, regardless of the state or the situation.
Yes, this is a myth, so let's debunk this one as well. Uh, the truth is that under federal law, final pay is typically due by the next regular payday, but there are many states that require final pay sooner. In some cases, the timeframe differs depending on whether the employee initiates the separation, and that's also known as a voluntary termination, or if the employer initiates the separation, and that would be known as an interim termination.
Involuntary termination, uh, for example, in Texas, for involuntary terminations, final pay is due within six days of the date of termination. And when an employee quits or resigns, they must be paid in full, no later than the next regularly scheduled payday after the effective date of the resignation or the retirement.
And keep in mind, too, that some states have separate final pay deadlines and other rules that apply to commissions and bonuses and other special situations that you have to also pay attention to.
Great points to remember.
¶ Method of final pay
Uh, for our third myth, Meryl, let's discuss the misunderstandings that a departing employee's final pay should always be mailed to them.
Good idea. Let's tackle this one as well. So, in reality, many states have rules about the location and the method for final pay. So, listeners need to first make sure they're checking their state law for details. So, for example, in California, when there's an involuntary termination, the employee must receive their final pay at their place of discharge.
When the employee resigns or retires, California requires that the employee receive their final pay at the office of the employer in the county they had been working. And if the employee gives at least 72 hours notice of their intention to quit, final pay must be paid at the time of quitting. But, if a California employee quits or retires without providing that 72 hours notice, then they can receive payment by mail if they request it and they designate a mailing address.
And the date of the mailing is what constitutes the date of payment for purposes of that requirement to provide payment within 72 hours of their separation notice. And then also in California for both voluntary and involuntary terminations, an employee who is authorized final pay by direct deposit may receive final wages in this manner as well, provided that all the other final pay requirements are also met.
So moving on here, one of the challenges that employers face when
¶ Return of company equipment
employees employment ends is ensuring the company equipment is returned. This has resulted in the myth that employers can simply withhold the employee's final pay in those kinds of situations. What's the truth?
Right. Uh, well, that's not the truth. The truth is that regardless of whether the employee has failed to return company property, the employer must meet federal and state final pay deadlines. So while withholding an employee's final paycheck is not allowed, there are some limited cases in which deductions may be permitted under federal law.
So if you have a non exempt employee and that's an employee who's entitled to minimum wage in overtime, the Fair Labor Standards Act, or we know as the FLSA. It does permit deductions for unreturned equipment, as long as the deductions don't reduce the employee's pay below the minimum wage, and they don't cut into any overtime pay.
But there are some states that prohibit this practice, or have other requirements, so employers need to check their state law, and they really also should be consulting with counsel before they're making any decisions. This type of deduction or any type of deduction, um, deductions for unreturned equipment are never permitted for employees classified as exempt from overtime. And keep in mind too that under the FLSA employers have to get an employee's consent before they make a deduction.
So the agreement needs to specify the items for which deductions will be made. And that could be for company uniforms or equipment. Or even employee theft and the agreement also needs to specify how the amount of the deduction will be determined. So, again, it's best practice to obtain the employee's authorization in writing and to consult with legal counsel before you're making a deduction.
Thank you for clarifying that, Meryl. Another common myth is that employees who quit are never entitled to unemployment benefits.
Right. This is a pretty common myth. In reality, the fact is that an employee who quits is not
¶ Entitlement to unemployment benefits
always disqualified from them. So to receive benefits, employees who resign have to show that they quit for good cause. And this is typically attributable to the employer. So while good cause varies by state, employees who quit as a result of retaliation or maybe to care for a sick family member or perhaps due to a significant reduction in hours or pay, they may be eligible for unemployment benefits and eligibility rules vary greatly.
So here too is another area where employers need to check their state law for details.
Great point.
¶ Recordkeeping post-employment
Okay, Meryl. So the next myth I'd like to address is the one that once an employee leaves. The employer no longer needs to keep their records. Is that true?
Right. That is a myth worth addressing because no, that's not true. Uh, the truth is that there are some federal state and local record keeping rules that require employers to hold on to records well beyond the employee's length of employment. So for example, an employer has to keep an I 9 form for at least three years from the employee's date of hire. Or for one year following termination, whichever is later.
And then also under certain federal non discrimination laws, employers have to hold on to personnel records for at least one year from the date of an involuntary termination. And if an employee files a discrimination claim, then they then employers have to hold on to those records until the claim is resolved. So employers need to make sure they're checking federal, state, and local laws, uh, just to make sure they're on top of all of the specific record keeping requirements.
¶ Pay for unused vacation & sick leave
Great. Uh, the next one here, Meryl, is, could you also please address the myth that employees are never entitled to pay for unused vacation time when they leave the company? And if I can add, does this also apply to paid sick leave?
Sure. Uh, so let's tackle both parts of that question. States generally handle unused vacation and pay time off in one of three ways. So, the first way is employers have to pay employees for unused vacation time at the time of separation. The second way is employers can exclude unused vacation time from final pay. If the employer has a written policy that explicitly states that employees will not be paid for accrued unused time upon separation.
Or the third way is employers can exclude unused vacation from final pay unless they have a policy that says otherwise. So here employers need to check their state law to see which of these options applies to their business. And then as far as sick leave laws. Most don't require employers to pay employees for accrued unused sick leave at the time of separation.
However, there's always a caveat, if the employer chooses to bundle all of their leaves, so if they were to include sick leave into a single pay time off policy or PTO policy, then The state could apply the same rules as it does for accrued unused vacation and PTO. And in that instance, that could require payout upon separation.
Excellent, Meryl. Thank you. And for our final myth today, can you please bust the myth that exit
¶ Exit interviews
interviews are a waste of time?
Sure. I'd be happy to bust that myth. Um, it's a common myth and really exit interviews are not a waste of time. Um, as we all know, turnover can be costly and exit interviews are a great way to find out why employees are leaving. So you can, if possible, make changes to help prevent other employees from departing for similar reasons.
So as a best practice, we recommend that you try to conduct exit interviews with employees who resign or retire, and when doing so, it's helpful to use the same core set of questions so you can identify trends and then go ahead and develop plans for improvement.
Excellent, Meryl. Thank you very much. Again, another fascinating conversation with you. This brings us to the end of this episode. Again, we enjoyed the discussion here on HRpreneur. And as I've been trying to do recently, Meryl, as I take some notes while we're chatting here, and I'd like to just recap, but please do keep me honest.
So the first point I wanted to reiterate was, at will employment generally means the employer or employee, who has a May end the employment relationship for any reason, but the employer's reason for termination must still be a lawful one. The second point I wanted to reiterate was that under federal law, final pay is generally due by the next regular payday, but many states require final pay sooner, so we need to look into that.
The third one is many states have specific rules about the location and method for final pay. So simply mailing final pay to the employee may be incorrect in some situations. Another point that you raised was that some federal, state, and local record keeping rules require employers to retain certain records well beyond the employee's length of employment.
And another and final point I wanted to reiterate for our listeners was that whether an employee's final paycheck must include pay for unused vacation time depends on the state and the company policy. So did I cover those accurately?
Great. You captured those all really well. Jim.
Great. Thank you, Meryl, for that. Presented by ADP, HRpreneur focuses on the entrepreneurs and business drivers who are shaping the growth of their companies and positively impacting the lives of their employees. With each episode, we bring the experts to you. We answer your questions and help you think beyond today so you can discover more success tomorrow. Thanks also to our listeners for joining us for today's episode. Be well, and we hope you'll join us again soon.
