(synth noise) - You are listening to "The HR Mixtape". Your podcast, with the perfect mix of practical advice, thought provoking interviews, and stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel well, like work. Now your host, Shari Simpson. - Joining me today is Paula Allen, senior Vice President of Global Leader Research and Client Insights at Telus Health.
Paula leads a team of data scientists, researchers, and experts in organizational health, communication, and behavioral change. Her focus is informing data-driven strategy and communicating insights in a manner that is accessible and drives productive action. (upbeat music) Paula, thank you so much for jumping on the podcast with me today. - Oh, it's my pleasure.
- So I have been thinking a lot about this concept of loneliness as we continue to tackle what hybrid and remote work look like, and especially as we hear that the WHO has this declaration around loneliness. How significant do you think this issue is in the modern workplace? - It is a significant, a very significant issue in modern life, so the workplace being a part of it, I'm so glad to see that the World Health Organization has really put a spotlight on this and others have as well.
I mean, we've had two surgeon general reports really call out the impact of loneliness on our overall health. There's been research papers after research papers that show that our physical health is actually damaged when we are in that kind of chronic state of loneliness, increased heart disease, increased risk of stroke, reduced immune system functioning, as well as the mental health impact. So this is a very, very big deal.
So there's really nobody, no individual as well as no workplace who shouldn't pay attention to this. - It seems to me though, like it's a little bit of a paradox 'cause especially in like this hyperconnected world we live in. What's your perspective on that? - Yeah, we're hyperconnected, aren't we? But we're still lonely and isolated. It's kind of, think about it though.
It's not just the number of connections that you have or the number of people around you, otherwise there wouldn't be anybody lonely in New York City at all, right? So, when you really think about it, being alone is sort of like a state, it could be good, it could be bad, it's good to have some alone time, that's not the issue. Social connection is really important and that gives you the opportunity to do what's super, super important, which is to have trusted relationships.
So it's that trust, that ability to know that somebody has your back. Somebody cares about your wellbeing. You're able to sort of be yourself, that's the thing that reduces loneliness, not just the number of connections you have. And unfortunately sometimes, digital connections can establish relationships that go to the next level and build that trust. Or digital connections can just be superficial, in which case you don't have what you absolutely need.
- Being that we're in this spot right now where, where loneliness has been declared by the World Health Organization, I'm curious about how hybrid work and remote work have impacted that. And the reason that I think I wanna dig into that a little bit is when I think about what we got to experience going remote is we got a peak into each other's lives in a way we hadn't before.
For those who are listening, you can't see, but we are both on camera with no filters in our background, we can kind of see what's going on behind us. We didn't have that before. So I do feel like in some instances I'm more connected, but in others I'm more distant 'cause now I'm looking at you through a screen rather than looking at your face. How has hybrid work impacted or affected this idea around loneliness?
- Well, your comments are actually very brilliant because it's really too early to tell. And from our data actually, it really is very individualized in terms of the situation. So being in the workplace and being face-to-face, that doesn't necessarily build the trust that we just talked about, that doesn't necessarily build the connection that we talked about. And being remote doesn't necessarily take it away.
So I think it's how people interact with each other, and from a leadership point of view, what's really important is being inclusive. What's really important is having communication. There's research that says if you have that communication on a daily basis or close to it, then your sense of isolation decreases, your sense of belonging increases. And by the way, your productivity actually also increases. So there's many benefits in addition to health.
So I really think that organizations will make good decisions based on what's good for their business, the type of business that they're in, the culture that they have, all in the office, hybrid, all remote, but nobody can get away from the facts of what human beings need, which is support, connection, and trust. And those are the things that combat isolation. - How do we teach our managers and our HR professionals to identify loneliness in our employees?
- I don't know if you identify the loneliness directly, but you sort of like can identify the impacts of it and human beings are just fascinating. That's why I'll always spend time looking at psychology, because you never really know everything and sometimes the things that you assume aren't the things that happen. One would think that if you're isolated or if you're lonely, that you would be more prone to reach out.
Because it's such an uncomfortable state, because actually the parts of your brain that respond to pain or the parts of your brain that respond to isolation and loneliness, it's really something that is very viscerally uncomfortable. So you would think if you have all of that, you would do as much as you possibly can to build connections. But what we find is sometimes the opposite.
The more people are isolated, the more they're lonely, the more difficult it becomes for them to make those connections. So I think what managers need to look at is, does your worker, or do the members of your team feel connected, or are they kind of just working in silos? Are they not seeking each other out for, advice, support, even just a laugh? How do people interact or how does a particular individual interact?
The other things that we see is that when people are feeling isolated and lonely, their anxiety level goes up. And this is just how we're built as human beings. We feel our stress level goes down, our comfort, our ability to survive, particularly in past centuries was really dependent on having social support, having that tribe, having that community, being able to fight off your enemies and make sure that you had food.
So, when we don't have that, we are anxious because we know it's not good for us. So when you see anxiety, when you see sensitivity to stress go up, when you see people like a little bit quick to sort of jump to negative assumptions, then you kind of know that something is not right. And one of those things that might not be right is that person's sense of connection. So it could be other things, but you know that that could be very much one of them.
- How do we make sure that we are creating genuine connection? And I know we've tried this, right? So in this remote, when we were in the lockdown and we were fully remote, we got really creative about happy hours over Zoom and cocktail hours and fun activities and shipping things to people to feel connected. But you're still on screen, you're still kind of removed.
What are some things we can do to start to create that sense of connection again, if we're gonna remain in this type of environment? - I think what was so interesting is that I think we also learned that some things don't translate well online. Well, my gosh, it was so interesting. One of the saddest things I ever attended was a kind of an online baby shower. It just didn't work, it just didn't work at all. And I think, what it is, is that when we are online, we can definitely connect.
'Cause we can communicate, allow that communication to happen naturally, shared experiences are important as well. And when people are working together on something, that shared experience builds connection. One of the things that I do fear is with a lot of remote work, there's an opportunity to get hyper efficient in terms of the way you do things. we'll have this work breakdown structure. You do this, you do that, whatever.
And we kind of all become like TaskRabbit, it's not connected to the organization or each other, just doing the job. And that I don't think is great because we do have to do our jobs. We do have to have some times where we have independent focus. But the whole reason why we have employees as opposed to contractors is because when you have someone who is connected to the organization, you have the ability of their minds and their hearts to make the organization better.
And the only way that you do that is if you bring minds together. No individual is gonna do that by themselves. So I think we have to build that kind of opportunity for people to have joint problem solving, joint projects, even if their work doesn't naturally lend themselves to such, because it'll benefit the person, but it'll also benefit the organization. - You mentioned earlier a little bit about the effects of loneliness on employee wellbeing, productivity, engagement.
I'm curious what insights Telus Health has really kind of uncovered in that area, related to those things. - Yeah, well the one thing that we absolutely know is this whole trend towards loneliness, isolation, it well predated the pandemic. We were trending that way for a long period of time. It's almost as if, because we can do things by ourselves, we're not realizing that from a mental and emotional point of view, we need to have those shared experiences. We need to build those connections.
We've also found that people have become a little impatient in a lot of things. And sometimes it's like, well, I don't have a connection. So, I met this person and I'm not just talking about dating or whatever. I'm just talking about friendships. And because, things didn't feel beautifully connected after two and a half minutes I gave up. It takes a little bit of time and a little bit of investment. And we've really become impatient as a society. But a couple of things are really important.
Number one, we are actually finding that this issue is much more significant in younger adults than it is with older adults. And we would've thought that would be a little bit different because particularly older, well, actually we're only dealing with working adults, but as you get older, it's more likely that you would be widowed. It is more likely that you might have some physical limitations that kind of prevents you from connecting with other people in an in-person way.
But we're also finding that people are a lot more aware when they age that they need to make connections, because those things are risks. So more volunteer work, more action to actually counter what otherwise would've happened in previous generations. In the younger cohorts, that issue of trust is a big deal. We're finding that younger individuals are more likely to distrust people that they call friends. They call them friends, the circle is there, but it'll only go so far.
And of course, when you don't have that circle of trust, when you don't feel that your friends have your back, you're wondering whether they're gonna post something about you or there's this feeling of competition, you're never gonna have that counter to isolation through social support that we all need. So that's one thing. Younger generations are suffering more. The other thing that we found is that the pandemic absolutely did have an impact, 60% more likely across the board.
All generations are saying that they are more likely to avoid social contact now than they were before. And again, this kind of goes back to how fascinating human beings are. You would think that, think about it, at the beginning of the pandemic, I know I did not like the fact that in our area, we had mandated physical isolation. I didn't like it at all, most people didn't.
But we get used to anything, even things that are not good, we get used to, we get into a habit, and I think some of us have gotten into a habit of just relying on ourselves and really haven't gotten enough out of that habit, even when we don't need to anymore. - It's such a good point.
And I was thinking as you were talking, so my husband is at a class this week, so he is gone all week, and I'm home by myself with the dogs, and I got to like day three or four, and I was like, I haven't left the house in four days. I didn't really have a reason to leave the house. Like I order my groceries. There are things that, like you said, we just kind of adapted, right? And so we don't necessarily have a reason to leave the house unless we're intentional about it.
So that really resonates with me about how we've kind of gotten used to it. And I'm an extrovert, so I love being around people. So it's like you kind of have to make yourself do those things that maybe you pulled back from doing. So I really like you mentioning that. As we think about creating policy around this, should we be creating policy around loneliness? How should we be thinking about that? I mean, really it relates to mental health in an organization. What's your perspective on that?
- it's interesting because I think it's great to give people opportunity to connect in the way I was saying before and in other ways. So, just having those joint projects so that the opportunity to kind of have that shared experience. So I think that's great. My mind doesn't go to policy though. My mind goes to another public health tool, which is awareness. So we had massive campaigns around the awareness of issues related to smoking.
You have massive campaigns related to issues related to a number of things. It's really the first step. Like, it's not the only thing, it's not a magic bullet. But, I consider myself very, very fortunate as a researcher to have a window into some of these things that do make a difference in terms of my mental health and wellbeing.
I also feel fortunate as a researcher to know that my mental health and wellbeing impacts every aspect of my life, my physical health, my relationships, my participation in the economy. I would give you a challenge to try to find something that your mental health doesn't impact. So I know all of these things, and it's on me and on my mind a lot. And boy, does it ever impact my own behavior.
So the whole idea of just allowing things to happen and then taking the risk is something that I just wouldn't do. So you are an extrovert, I'm an introvert, but I know that I need, I know that my stressful level is lower when I have my circle of support, I know that not everybody is going to jump around and worry about taking care of me because they've got their own lives. So I reach out and make sure that I make connections to other people.
I know that volunteer work is a wonderful way to have a sense of purpose and also to connect with people that you otherwise wouldn't have connected with. So I'm involved with that as well. So I feel so grateful for the knowledge I have, and I think that we should also transmit that knowledge a little bit more assertively to everybody. - Do you think we're gonna see coming out of the WHO, a campaign around loneliness?
- Actually, 100% I do, because they've actually set up a commission to make sure that they're tackling this issue. And again, it's happening across the world. We're moving in this direction. It's not just hyper industrialized societies. This is one of the biggest risks of human beings right now.
And as I said, it's not just a matter of increasing your risk of mental health, but we know that that anxiety that's created, the pain literally that's created, it impacts people's productivity and their ability to participate fully in the economy. It's not like you might, some people might be, not able to work, but in most cases you're just not able to be your best. And the other thing is it impacts physical health.
So some of the numbers that I said, 30% increase in cardiovascular disease, stroke, the strain on your brain, which is part of your body impacts the strain on the rest of your body and creates damage. So the World Health Organization has put together some pretty smart people to figure out how to actually tackle this because it is such a huge issue.
- As we wrap our conversation, you have such an amazing background in mental health, and like you said, as a researcher, I'm hoping that you can give us some tips or some activities to help us address loneliness, both personally and in the workplace. Obviously not hosting baby showers. (laughing) - Virtually. - Virtual baby showers are probably not something we should implement, but is there something that we should be implementing that you haven't mentioned as kind of our takeaway here?
- Yeah, and just on that point, somebody might have been able to pull it off, that baby shower quite well virtually. I just didn't know how to do it, it was just, I don't know. But you know what, think about what the human mind actually needs, and one of the things that we underestimate is our need for variety and stimulation. Just not having that and I think a lot of us felt that during the pandemic, it's not great for us.
It's not good for us as kids because, we need it to actually build neurons, but it's important for us as adults. So when you don't have that, you probably, let me just say it another way. If you are don't have a variety in your experiences, you're always in one place, you're always doing one thing, you're working hard, and maybe the only other thing that you do is meditate and there's no variety, then you are probably also not giving yourself the opportunity to have a lot of social connection.
So I think you have to think about giving yourself a balanced diet to your mind. So, seeing different things visually, having a little sense of accomplishment, having some fun, and having some time with other people. So, think about it holistically and when you do, there will be time for other people.
The other thing that I would say is make sure that you're not passive about this, because it's very easy to say, well, my life situation is X and I'm upset about it, because of Y, but you've got a lot of control, everyone does. And the more you reach out, the more people reach out to you, even just checking in on people, showing them gratitude for what they brought to your life, be what you want and things come back to you in multiple folds.
But I think more than anything, I think we also need to know that we have levels of support that we need. So just like in your physical health, you need to eat right and exercise and build that into your life. We need to have social connections, we need to build trusted relationships and build that into our life. But the other level is when you're physically ill, when you're feeling compromised, you see a professional, you see a physician, same thing for your mental health.
If you are feeling overwhelmed, if you are feeling stuck, so you can't even get yourself to do the things that you know that you can do, you already have the capacity to do, then seek professional help. Contact your EAP. Every single day, we at Telus Health are speaking to people who are lonely, who are overwhelmed, and don't realize that the lack of social support might be part of that. And we help coach them, we help 'em get out of it.
and we are doing it in such a way and other professionals will do this as well. We're doing it in such a way that your friends might not be able to. So remember there's levels of support and counseling is actually one level of social support as well. - Paula, this was such a great discussion, both from theoretical things we need to think about and very tactical takeaways. So I appreciate you spending a few minutes with me today talking about this.
- It's my pleasure, Shari, (upbeat music) - I hope you enjoy today's episode. You can find show notes and links at the HRmixtape.com, come back often and please subscribe, rate, and review. (soft music)