You're listening to the HR Mixtape. Your podcast with the perfect mix of practical advice, thought-provoking interviews, and stories that just hit different so that work doesn't have to feel, well, like work. Now, your host, Joining me today is Desmond Lomax. He is a seasoned clinical mental health therapist and senior consultant at the Arbinger Institute. With over 20 years in law enforcement and corrections, he specializes in EDI work and facilitating change through outward mindset
workshops. Desmond also serves as an adjunct professor in forensic social work at the University of Utah. Desmond, I'm so glad I was able to catch you on the floor here at ATD 2024. It has been an amazing conference and it looks like you've had a lot of traction in your booth and you've done a session. How's Good. Every year, ATD, for me, becomes more like home, like a comfort level. There's people that have seen me before. Arbinger
is all about humanizing the workplace. And so, our capacity and ability to engage people authentically makes our interactions a I love it. Authentic engagement, authentic leadership is a topic we talk about all the time. But what I want to dig in with you is around DEI. So let's start with this. What do you think is the biggest misconception The biggest, I think, misconception is that DEI is a cause that's not directly connected to
performance. So, this conception that, oh, we have to do this training to make a certain group of people happy, or we have to do this training because there's five people in my organization suffering. Instead of recognizing that, people are generally lonely and disconnected in our organizations, and there's an inclusion effort that needs to happen for them. So, let's go beyond race. Let's go beyond gender. Let's go beyond marginalized people. And
let's recognize people are struggling in your organization. And our DEI efforts bring them to a space where they can be seen and acknowledged and valued in a way where it improves their performance. So, there's a direct connection between performance and our You mentioned loneliness and the World Health Organization has actually started a symposium on loneliness following kind of the impact of what the pandemic has done to organizations as
we live in this hybrid world. One of the things I keep hearing is, I can't get my leadership on board with DEI efforts. How do we do that if you're stuck in that That's a great comment. If my leadership doesn't want to get on board, then their definitions of DEI need to be better understood. We need to create definitions around the idea of DEI inclusion that gets your leaders on board. So, if you're not on board, what's up?
What are you feeling? What's going on? How do you see DEI? What's your definition of DEI? Well, DEI is just like, I'm a middle-class white male that's in a position of leadership, and DEI means that I'm the problem. Oh yeah, no wonder you're not on board. I wouldn't be on board if it was reverse. And so, we create these narratives in society, and people have a certain feeling about what DEI is. And if you don't address that definition and create a definition that is workable, no one will get on
board. You know the idea is if DEI becomes an experience where people in our organization feel seen and heard and connected to And we all treat each other a little bit better. Oh, you don't want to get on board of that senior executive Like so really like like you want to be on board, but but right now. It's it's a white guilt program And who wants to get on board of that so so one of the Arbinger principles of this is If you dehumanize me, I will resist. Many senior executives feel that DEI
has been dehumanizing them. And since they're in charge, they will resist. So, we need to create an inclusive DEI program that includes even What other bad behaviors, I'm going to use that term loosely, but what other bad behaviors have you seen, not just from the C-suite, but from others that are in leadership that are either resisting or maybe approaching DEI wrong? Maybe they think they're doing a really great job, but there's some behaviors you're
Oh my goodness, we don't have enough time. My keynote, I had eight points. I'll talk a few of them now. One of them is that we usually create DEI programs where we have 10,000 employees. We have one person in charge of DEI. We give them a cool title. We give them a decent salary. But we give them no power to create any different change. That's a problem. Another problem is, we often create DEI programs that are like, oh, we'll do an ERG group. And we'll do those at
the lower levels. I'm like, yay! People of different cultures and backgrounds can talk to each other and have parties and events and empower each other. And maybe as a leader, I'll show up and have a taco or some food with them. Or I'll show up and go, hey, I'm glad you're doing this. But I'm not included in the process. So, there's really no top-down in the organization. Like, hey, how am I impacting you
as a leader? That's an inclusion process. So, if I'm a leader, and I'm not having discussions that have been normalized, where we're talking about how we're impacting each other, and that's going from the top to the bottom, then really, not only is inclusion or DEI not going to work, but nothing's going to work in your organization. Because you are out of touch with the humans in your organization because you haven't received the feedback about your impact with them. Those are all things
So this question is a little tougher. I had an interesting conversation with somebody the other day about religious accommodations in the workplace. And one of the things that we talked about was as we go into June, which is Pride Month, and we're celebrating that diversity of gender and orientation and expression, that sometimes there are religions that conflict with those things. And so you're left in a situation where you're trying to be inclusive of both
things. What advice do you have? When it comes to the employee level, I'm thinking about the HR person who's kind of stuck in this middle of trying to figure out how do I be inclusive for everybody? How do I provide a space for everybody to feel like they belong in the way that makes sense? Is there an answer to that or is it your organization has to decide, hey, So an organization needs to have a philosophy. And
I don't know if this is a complete answer. The idea is, if my philosophy is being right, I'm always going to come up short. If my philosophy is getting it right, then my philosophy is, it's okay to grow, to make mistakes, to change things, to improve things. It's okay to not be perfect in every situation, but to be curious and to have a deep understanding of what people are experiencing. Because there's no such thing as being right in that situation. That
situation is no such thing as being right. So, let's create a situation where I make sure we're aware and awake to different people's experiences and let's celebrate as much of them as we can. And let's help people recognize that in this world, we all don't see things the same. And to have an expectation that as an organization, we're setting ourselves up for failure, that we have to be everything for everybody. Our goal isn't that. Our goal is to do our best to get it right
and to support as many people as we can. But there's no right answer to that. It's just more of a philosophy on how Well, you hit on something that I think is so important, and it's the journey you're on. Obviously, for those that listen to the podcast know that I am a 40-year-old white female, and I am constantly reminded that there is language that I have used in my life that
has racist undertones. Through my own DEI journey over the last several years, I've become way more aware of those phrases and terminology that I catch myself and I use it as an opportunity to educate other people when I hear them use phrases that are very outdated or that we shouldn't use anymore. And it has led to so many great discussions because sometimes I have that like, hey, you know what? You really shouldn't
say that phrase anymore. Let me tell you about the background where it started and like why it's probably not in your best interest to use this anymore. Sometimes the reaction is like, oh, my gosh, thank you for telling me. I'm so glad I don't want to show up that way. And then sometimes there's this very weird resistance to it, like, oh, come on, I can't say that anymore. What do you do with those people that, oh, come on, you're being like, is The idea is instead of calling people out,
we call people forward. So there is a cultural expectation in your organization that we are going to support each other so that we can all be better. Now, listen, here's the reality. You're a 40-year-old white woman. I'm a 50-year-old African-American. And there's times my kids are like, Dad, you can't say that. And I'm like, what? What? What did I say? When did I become the old racist dad? When did I become the dad that's out of touch? Because now I said she instead of they, or I screwed up.
Let me tell you something. If you really understand DEI work, you understand that mistakes are common. And that as things evolve, lean into the fact that you're going to make mistakes. I look at people, I'm looking at someone's name, I'm going to misspell, I'm going to mispronounce your name five times before I get it right. Let me apologize for all five times. Instead of assuming that like, oh, I'm screwing up or I'm wrong. See, one thing is, you're an amazing person who
happens to be a 40-year-old white female. And we need to address society in a way where our gender and race are part of our lived experiences and they're important to who we are, but they are not the totality of our existence. And sometimes when we correct people, we're missing out on their humanity because
their mistakes are not the totality of their existence. And so, then we have people walking on eggshells going, I, they, we, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah,
If you're listening and you're trying to figure out how do I start this DEI journey in my organization? Maybe you're small. Maybe you don't have the ability to do an ERG led by a leader. Maybe you don't have all these resources. A lot of organizations, like you said, have one person who is in charge of this. How do they start in an impactful way, not necessarily in a tactical check I'd start with the executives. I'd have a closed door meeting and I'd be like, what's up folks? What's
up? I want to engage this, but I want to engage it where you folks are part of the process. This doesn't work if it's just something that everyone else is doing, and you folks are checking the box, and you folks don't believe in it, and you folks are happy to engage it five minutes every quarter when there's something going on. I need to understand what your challenges are with the material, the things you'd like to accomplish, how you would like to feel included in
part of the process. because you are a part of this process. Like, my executives have to be a part of the process. And they have to show up. So, here's what we teach in Arbinger. People know. They know. They know when it's something that you're doing because you feel obligated to do it. They know it's something that you need to do when you feel passionate about it. They know. So, I work with leaders to get them to the point that when they show up, People know that they
matter. And they have a belief that their leaders know that. And before anything, in terms of initiatives and ERGs can get started, I need my leaders to show up in a way where people have a sense that their humanity matters to them. That What do you say to the DEI leader in that organization who goes into that meeting and walks away knowing the leadership team is not on board? Do they No, no, no. So human behavior is a part of acceptance and rejection. This is the therapist in me. I'm sorry, but
we are so hell-bent. Can I say hell? We are so hell-bent on expecting everything to go our way all the time. That is not life. That is not reality. That is not accurate. The reality is, is any time you do something different, there's going to be acceptance, and rejection. And so as a leader, I need to take them both in stride. I need to take my acceptance and rejection in stride and recognize that every rejection is just a call that
I need to shape and continue to work on the work I'm doing. But OK, I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about how we educate our managers. You know, they are often the front lines of identifying things that are happening in an organization that do not align with our DEI efforts. What pieces of coaching advice do you have to HR professionals to help coach managers to address both mindset and OK, so we have a whole program, the Arbinger Institute. Mindset
motivates behavior. So, when I'm talking about these executive meetings and getting to know these folks, we really have to address their mindset. Because if they show up with a pervasive mindset, you're four times less likely to accomplish your goals. Research has shown this. If I show up with a pervasive mindset, I'm four times less likely to accomplish these goals. So, by addressing a manager's mindset, you'll help them do a few things. First of all, most
managers are struggling with some of the people they lead. And most managers are just good humans. And good people are often blind to their impacts. So, I would start coaching managers and understanding the importance of their impact. The importance of how they show up and how they engage people is at the heart of getting the accountability and the performance they want. So, my coaching would be around, how do you show up? What's hard? Who's getting on your last nerves? Are
you just solely focused on problems? If you are, how's it working out for you? Like, is it hard for you to see the humanity of another person? If it is, how's it working out for you? Do you feel people resisting you? All these are signs that your behavioral approaches are not working and a mindset approach I'm always amazed when I talk to somebody about mindset because there's so much power in that. My three kids are have served or are serving actively in the military.
My youngest is in a very progressive special warfare pipeline. He's very young. He's 18. And his mindset continues to amaze me. The things that he can accomplish and the ingenuity and the grit that comes from just making a decision on your mindset as Yeah. Yeah. So here's the reality. We all have histories. We all have luggage. We all show up in certain ways. I grew up in a family where a lot of times I didn't feel I was enough. And sometimes at work, that shows up. So,
there's a lot to it, right? Like my mindset comes with luggage that needs to be unpacked. so that I can be the type of leader I want to be. And if I look at my history, where I've lost a child to suicide, my spouse had cancer for 10 years, I often have a feeling that I'm easily replaced because of how I was raised. And if I bring all of those with me to work, and I'm not very self-aware of how that can impact me and impact others, I could be really
having the type of impact I don't want to have. So, I think it's important when we look at mindset, we look at the origins of it and where it comes from and how, at times, in my own struggles and only difficulties that go unresolved and unhealed, Let's talk about data. You know, for so long, I think our focus in HR was, let's look at the metrics. Do we have enough ratios correct? Do we have the right amount of black people and white people and Asians in our organization? Data is
still important, right? We know that. We know that a lot of decisions are based on data. How should we be using the data that we're Data is wonderful. I think, okay, let me just say this. If my idea is bringing more people that look different than me in an organization, if that's my idea of success, and I haven't assessed the suffering of the people that were already in my organization. So, most organizations have
people that are homogenous, they look like me, and they're suffering. And I'm creating programs for people that don't look like me and the people that are in my organization that are like, what about my program? Why can't I be seen and validated? And so, we're using data to pinpoint things that aren't going to help us heal. And then we bring in people that don't look like us. And we're diverse now, but our soul and the culture of our institution is toxic. Those
people are going to leave as quick as the people that look like me, they leave. So, I see organizations that go, well, we wanted to bring people in, but they left after six months. Well, that's because your overarching institution has a sense where people don't feel seen and validated and psychologically safe. So, you need to improve the safety of your organization before you can look at an attitude of I'm amazed when I talk to leaders how many don't have
programs in their organizations to develop psychological safety. It blows me away every single time. Talk about that a little bit more because I think that definitely plays into these So if you Google Project Aristotle, Google did a really fun project like research and they looked at what are the key indicators of team dynamic success. And they found out it wasn't tenure, it wasn't experience, it
wasn't these positions, it wasn't all these things we would think it is. The number one key indicator of team dynamics and organizational success was psychological safety. Project Aristotle. Look it up. Google. Go to Google. And so, it speaks to it. So, people are like, oh, psychological safety is the new buzzword. They
don't even understand. If people don't feel seen or validated, if they don't feel they can make a mistake and that's OK, If they don't have any of that stuff going on, they are going to struggle. And it's going to be hard for them to connect with other people. So, a little tidbit. This one's free. Most people show up at work with a fight-or-flight response. They show up at work with fear, and that triggers their fight-or-flight. But
anytime my fight-or-flight is triggered, it impacts my social engagement. My ability to socially engage. So, we're not addressing fight-or-flight. We're not addressing psychological safety. But yet, we have high levels of accountability and interaction with people who are going to struggle with all that accountability and interaction because they don't feel safe. There
Let's talk about AI. I feel like this, you know, just being at the conference and looking at the amount of AI content right now that exists, everybody's trying to figure it out. Do you have any forward-looking advice for how generative AI is going to Use it to create your outlines. Use it to get quick information. Use it to find studies in a split second. There's so many amazing things to use it in. Don't use it to replicate your soul. That's when we've gone too
far. When we allow AI to create images and thoughts and things that make it seem like there's a person doing it, and there's not a soul connected to it, then I All right, this is the last question, but I think it's a tough one. Coming out of the pandemic, we saw a rise in hiring of DEI leaders. Now we're seeing those leaders People mean well. There have been some social issues where sometimes in society and in politics, we create problems
to develop a solution. And this past two years, where the year and a half or two years before that, DEI was a great opportunity to reconnect people and bring people together. In the past two years, it's been politicized. And it's become a problem that needed a solution. And as a part of the solution of trying to say that DEI is a bad thing, it's really created a lot of fear in organizations who don't want to be involved with anything that's bad. Now,
the need is still there. So, I don't have to call it DEI. Call it inclusion. Call it just helping people not feel lonely. Call it a program where people come in and they are a part of something special. But DEI has been politicized into being bad, and most companies want to distance themselves from something that is bad. The DEI issues have grown. And so, there's going to be a reckoning. And the reckoning's going
to directly impact your performance. So, either you redefine it in a space where you can grow and continue to grow as an org, or recognize that sometimes when things are this political, you have What great advice to rebrand it. I mean, something that simple could have such a huge impact and could really help you describe or paint a picture or get that buy-in Yep, yep. It is okay. Get rid of the names. If All right, Desmond, this was such a great conversation. Thanks for taking a few
You know what? Thank you. Thank you for reaching out. As you can tell, I love what I do. So I was like, let's do this. But like to all those people out there, go to www.arbinger.com. We I hope you enjoyed today's episode. You can find show notes and links at TheHRMixTag.com. Come back