“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies - podcast cover

“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader.

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Episodes

JP Morgan's CEO Hates Remote Work

Nolan and Kelli talk about Jamie Dimon's leaked critique of remote work while examining the collision between post-pandemic workplace expectations and corporate realities. They explore leadership's critical role in employee engagement, the shifting talent marketplace, and how organizational culture ultimately determines whether flexibility becomes an asset or liability in modern workplaces. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advisi...

Mar 04, 202513 min

Agentic AI: Hype vs Reality? with Siadhal Magos of Metaview

In this installment of AI Corner, Siadhal Magos, the CEO of Metaview, and Nolan Church discuss 'agentic AI' in a practical and relevant way for HR pros. They dig into what agentic AI is today vs future expectations and debate current tool limitations. They also share their current AI tool stack, workflows, and their overall approach to viewing AI like a 'junior colleague'. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at http...

Feb 28, 202526 min

The Feedback Dilemma: Ethics vs Risk

Kelli and Nolan talk about candidate feedback during hiring processes and debate whether companies should provide feedback to rejected candidates, especially those who've invested significant time in interviews and assignments. They discuss recruiter bandwidth challenges and liability concerns while advocating for human-centered feedback approaches, especially for onsite candidates, plus advice on requesting feedback gracefully. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected] ...

Feb 25, 202519 min

Airbnb’s Iain Roberts on Designing HR as a Strategic Service Function

Iain Roberts, Global Head of Employee Experience at Airbnb, discusses experimenting in HR in 2025, the design-thinking reshaping organizational structures, and why CEO Brian Chesky’s ‘Founder Mode’ is much misinterpreted. Iain covers innovative approach to flexible work, cross-functional alignment, and treating employee programs as evolving products requiring continuous refinement. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected] **For coaching and advising inquire at https://k...

Feb 20, 202540 min

Board Seats and Beyond, with Asana's Head of People Anna Binder

Anna Binder, Head of People at Asana, shares her journey as an HR leader, her approach to board membership at CultureAmp, and her philosophy on talent management. The discussion covers the nitty gritty of preparing and contributing in board meetings, long-term DEI initiatives, and the importance of authentic leadership in HR, particularly highlighting the value of playing the long game in organizational development. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected] **For coachin...

Feb 18, 202545 min

Tucking In Top Performers

Nolan and Kelli talk about retaining top-performing employees (the crucial 1%) and emphasize that compensation alone isn't sufficient; leaders must combine verbal recognition, proactive compensation strategies, transparency, and genuine appreciation. They stress the importance of eliminating compensation anxiety for these key employees and building long-term relationships, and argue that thoughtful, personalized treatment of top talent ultimately benefits both the individual and organization. Em...

Feb 14, 202515 min

Anthropic’s Interview Rules

Nolan and Kelli talk about AI's role in hiring processes, sparked by Anthropic's policy against using AI in job applications. They explore the tension between AI as a valuable tool and its potential for interview deception, ultimately advocating for a more integrated approach where candidates openly demonstrate their AI usage skills rather than attempting to restrict or hide it. Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected] **For coaching and advising inquire at https://kelli...

Feb 12, 202515 min

TikTok & Tech Layoff Strategy with Jesse Tinsley

Entrepreneur Jesse Tinsley - founder of Employer.com and other successful tech ventures - discusses his consortium's bid to acquire TikTok alongside MrBeast. The dialogue with Kelli and Nolan examines the philosophical and practical implications of executive compensation reduction during corporate restructuring, while illustrating how digital discourse can evolve into substantive debate when moved from social media to direct dialogue. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: hrheretics@turpenti...

Feb 07, 202524 min

Hidden Job Market: Exec Hiring 2025 with Adam Ward

Adam Ward (founding partner, Growth by Design) discusses the current landscape of executive hiring in people/talent roles, particularly the prevalence of "pocket listings" - positions filled through private networks rather than public postings. He offers insights into what CEOs value in people leaders (business-driven mindset, operational excellence), how candidates can effectively navigate professional networks, and the importance of structured hiring processes. *Email us your questions or topi...

Feb 04, 202546 min

Navigating the Complexity of Company Values

Kelli and Nolan examine the art of building authentic company values. Through real-world experiences, they reveal the methodical process of transforming abstract principles into tangible organizational behavior that drives meaningful cultural change. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected] **For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine . —Support HR Heretics Sponsor: Metaview is the AI assistant for interview...

Jan 30, 202515 min

Breaking Through Reorg Paralysis

Kelli and Nolan tackle a listener's frustration with a painfully slow reorg process, diving into the eternal tension between perfect planning and actually running the business. When HR and legal reviews stretch into week four, should you keep waiting for perfection or pull the trigger? Towards the end of the episode, Kelli and Nolan get into brass tacks offering tactical timelines to execute a reorg based on hypothetical examples. *Email us your ‘Dear Heretics’ questions: [email protected]...

Jan 28, 202516 min

Smart Hiring with Tom Clayton

Tom Clayton, COO of Peek, shares his unconventional playbook for building world-class teams. From his data-driven "employee attribute chart" to his rule of "don't be a brand b***h," Tom breaks down how he's scaled companies from 50 to 2000+ employees. He dishes on everything from why he sends champagne to candidates' hotel rooms to why he encourages employees to quit and start their own companies. If you’re listening on podcast platforms, be sure to check out our Substack or YouTube channel to s...

Jan 23, 202543 min

When Success Means New Bosses: A Startup Growth Story

Kelli and Nolan unpack the delicate art of layering – that awkward moment when someone gets a new boss – while calling out the pitfalls of secret searches and celebrating the often-forgotten heroes of early startup days. Equal parts tactical advice and therapy session for growing companies. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. — 📰 Be notified e...

Jan 21, 202522 min

Unlocking HR's Hidden Insights with Siadhal Magos [AI Corner]

Think AI is just about robots summarizing your emails? Think again. Metaview co-founder and CEO Siadhal Magos reveals how AI's real impact in an org is making sense of workplace conversations, performance reviews, and all the messy human stuff that HR deals with. Start recognizing the opportunities presented by ‘unstructured data’ to transform HR from subjective guesswork to data-driven decisions, without losing the human touch. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: hrheretic...

Jan 17, 202520 min

Adapting to Startup Reality and Having More Impact

Nolan and Kelli talk about the culture shock of moving from corporate behemoths to the startup wild west. They share battle-tested wisdom on surviving the transition - from mastering the art of founder relationships to embracing the (sometimes brutal) transparency demands of startup employees. Along the way, they reveal how corporate luxuries like two-hour gym breaks get replaced by the exhilarating but exhausting reality of building something from scratch. *Email us your questions or topics for...

Jan 15, 202516 min

The Art of Not Getting Fired for Not Firing People

Kelli and Nolan start with a heartfelt discussion about LA fires before diving into the art of handling CEO mandates for attrition targets. They reveal insider strategies for transforming harsh directives into meaningful performance frameworks, while warning against becoming the dreaded "person of no." *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. — 📰 B...

Jan 10, 202518 min

The Anti-Org Chart: Why Colin Zima Traded HR for Chaos (and Won)

Colin Zima, former Looker exec turned Omni CEO, reveals how he runs a 65-person Series A startup with no HR or G&A team. Learn why he believes in minimal bureaucracy, why founders should do the "dirty work," and what really breaks after a Google acquisition. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast from Turpentine. — 📰 Be notified early when Turpentine's drops ...

Jan 09, 202543 min

Big Tech Alumni: Help or Hindrance? with Bryan Power

From Square to Nextdoor, Bryan Power reveals why copying Big Tech's playbook might be your biggest mistake. Find out why Square banned hiring from the payments industry while building a payments company. Discover how conventional wisdom about senior talent can become startup kryptonite and why the safe choice isn't always the smart choice. Bryan Power is a veteran Silicon Valley People executive who's shaped talent strategy at tech giants like Google and Yahoo, built Square from 150 employees, a...

Jan 02, 202548 min

The Very Best of Heretics 2024

Happy New Year from HR Heretics! Together, we've built something extraordinary: a community of forward-thinking HR professionals who dare to question the status quo, welcome straight talk, and thrive on healthy debate. In today's special year-end episode, we're sharing some of our top moments, most controversial takes, and the conversations that simply blew our minds with new approaches to people, hiring, managing, and shaping the culture of high performing teams. Think of this as your ultimate ...

Dec 31, 202417 min

The Year End Special: Personal L’s, Big Wins, and Why Headcount is Dead

It’s been quite a year! Kelli and Nolan bare it all in their 2024 wrap-up. Get their must-read books, binge-worthy podcasts, and raw personal journeys - including Kelly's identity crisis and Nolan's toughest year yet. Plus, hear why 2025 might be the year to go 'risk on' and why your company's headcount could be holding you back. No fluff, just real talk from two HR leaders who've been there. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advi...

Dec 20, 202429 min

Striking at the Heart of the Future of Work | AI Corner with Siadhal Magos on 11x AI

Are digital workers coming for your job? In this episode, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos— our resident AI expert— breaks down the rise of AI-powered SDRs and what it means for the future of work. From 11x.ai's $75M raise to replace human sales reps, to broader implications for recruiting and tech roles, discover why VCs are betting big on AI labor. This is a candid discussion about job displacement, productivity gains, and why getting your hands dirty with AI might be your best career move. Discover...

Dec 18, 202429 min

Why Messy is Good and Structure is Overrated

Ever wondered why your HR team feels like a bunch of separate countries? Tune in as Kelli and Nolan reveal why mixing your People Ops like finger paint might be the secret sauce to scaling – and why that messy feeling means you're actually crushing it. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at h...

Dec 13, 202414 min

Be an Infinite Learner with Chris Yeh

Chris Yeh – author, venture partner, and co-writer of Blitzscaling (with Reid Hoffman) – shares insights from his multifaceted career as a Silicon Valley insider. Yeh discusses staying relevant in tech, the necessary skill of unlearning, and why traveling with potential partners might be the best way to assess compatibility. Yeh gives our listeners a masterclass in adaptability and authentic leadership. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business ...

Dec 12, 202454 min

Stop Saying You're a Business Partner (And Actually Be One) with Jeff Diana

Tired of hearing "HR needs to be more business-focused" without any real direction? In this episode, Kelli and Nolan cut through the noise with actionable insights from veteran CPO Jeff Diana. Learn why joining sales calls, understanding your P&L, and getting your hands dirty in customer support might be your secret weapons. Discover how top HR leaders transformed from "the team in the corner" to invaluable business partners – and how you can, too. *Email us your questions or topics for Kell...

Dec 06, 202424 min

C-Suite Budget Scrutiny? with Colleen McCreary

Ever wonder what happens when HR leaders get real about C-suite scrutiny? Join Kelli, Nolan and friend of the podcast, Colleen McCreary, as they spill the tea on transforming those dreaded "show me the numbers" moments into power moves. Turns out, the secret sauce isn't hiding from spreadsheets—it's owning them with style. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ HR Heretics is a podcast fr...

Dec 03, 202413 min

The 3AM People Leader: Donald Knight of Warner Brothers Discovery

From pioneering parental leave strategies to 3 AM workout sessions, Warner Bros Discovery's SVP of People Donald Knight reveals how vulnerability, authenticity, and physical discipline shape exceptional leadership. Donald joins Kelli and Nolan in a candid conversation about evolving HR, squandered DEI opportunities, and building lasting relationships in hyper-growth environments. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquire ...

Nov 26, 202450 min

Feedback Isn't a Gift, It's a Workout | Culture Amp CEO Didier Elzinga

Didier Elzinga, Culture Amp's CEO, drops bombshell insights about why most leaders get growth wrong, reveals shocking data about manager vs. leader impact, and explains why treating feedback like an all-you-can-eat menu is destroying companies. Didier sits down with Kelli Dragovich and Nolan Church for a conversation about company culture, data, and mapping the world of work on two axes—trust versus mission. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For c...

Nov 21, 202448 min

Beyond the Red Flags: Managing Leadership Evolution

How do you navigate a founding CTO's transition when they're struggling to scale? Kelli and Nolan share hard-won wisdom on avoiding common pitfalls: don't rush to judgment, build trust first, and respect the deep bonds between founders. Instead of plotting replacements, focus on supporting growth - and remember that even the best transitions happen through relationships, not force. *Email us your questions or topics for Kelli & Nolan: [email protected] For coaching and advising inquir...

Nov 19, 202417 min

HR's Legal Blindside: The Litigation Wave

Melanie Naranjo, Chief People Officer at Ethena, joins Kelli and Nolan to tackle the surge in employee litigation facing modern companies. In an era where employees are increasingly using legal terms like 'discrimination' and 'retaliation,' how can companies balance protecting themselves from frivolous lawsuits while ensuring legitimate grievances are properly addressed? Explore how social media, changing workplace expectations, and generational shifts are fueling this trend, while offering prac...

Nov 14, 202429 min

The Myth of the Perfect Candidate

Today Kelli and Nolan tackle a real-world HR career challenge: a candidate who received feedback that while they could handle their current role, the hiring manager was unsure about their ability to scale with company growth. Drawing from their extensive backgrounds in recruiting and HR leadership, they help listeners navigate everything from interview feedback to career growth, offering insider perspectives that challenge traditional HR thinking and empower professionals to take control of thei...

Nov 12, 202414 min
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