How to Succeed at Engaging Gen Z with Madeline Miller

00:03 Hey, everybody, welcome to another how to succeed podcast. This is how to succeed at engaging Gen Z with Madeline Miller. She's coachingwithmadelyn.com dot. We're going to talk to her about coaching and engaging Gen Z's and getting them excited about leadership and moving up in their career. This is going to be a fun one today. It's brought to you by Sandler, the worldwide leader in sales, management and customer service training. You can find more information@sandler.com dot, I'm your host, Mike Montague, and this is how to succeed at engaging Gen Z. All right, Madeline, tell me a little bit about Gen Z. Where are we at now? I know we have a lot of Gen Zers entering the workforce and the, you know, more years past that we have them doing that. We'll eventually have Gen Zers moving into leadership and stuff. So I'm really excited to talk to you about coaching and engaging Gen Z's. Welcome to the show.

00:58 Thank you very much. It's really nice to be here. So as you point out, we have Gen Z's. They're the newest generation entering the workforce, and at the moment they're comprising maybe like under 20%. But by 2030, Gen Z and millennials are going to be two thirds of the workplace. Right. So you're going to have Gen Z's probably just under a third of the workplace. And as you point out, soon they'll be moving into leadership roles. I think why I focus on Gen Zs particularly is because I've noticed that there's not a lot of leadership opportunities and training for those youngest sort of employees. I think that we focus a lot of executive coaching on executives, which I understand. But the way I sort of have viewed it, having worked across many countries and many industries and seeing sort of like the suite of leadership around the world, is that a lot of the time when we're working with executives wherever, unlearning bad behaviors, and I sort of thought one day, well, why are we not teaching those leadership skills from the beginning, you know, a preventative approach as opposed to having to sort of dismantle things that are already happening?

02:02 Yeah, I'd love to ask you one more follow up question on that because I always say at Sandler here, we're in a growth market because Gen Zs and younger people are not becoming better salespeople as we grew up with engaging technologies and a lot of different ways to talk, I'm not seeing like a spike in our communication skills. How do you feel about the leadership market? Do you think Gen Z will make better leaders than we've experienced with boomers and Gen Xers?

02:28 Actually, that's a really good question because one of the things that we're seeing in the data, like from McKinsey and Deloitte, is that communication skills are one of the areas that people complain a lot about Gen Z. They think that they're not professional enough, they're not good at communication, they're not effective communications. And I think that's probably to an extent, fair if you consider how they entered the workforce. Right? Like, they probably finished school online. They perhaps have started their work entirely remotely. And I think sort of from my experience, how I learned a lot of those skills in the workplace was through one on one communication and that, you know, and availability for real interaction with my boss. And if you think about sales, I mean, sales is all interpersonal skills, right? It's like forming connections, you know, handling, like pushbacks, conflicts, you know? So I think that asking about whether Gen Zs are going to be great salespeople is sort of really saying, are they going to be great leaders? And I think that there is potentially a bit of a crisis if we don't invest now in developing out those leadership skills and communication skills proactively with Gen Z because of all the reasons I just listed.

03:33 Yeah, I think that's fair. I also think it's unfair. Sometimes we blame kids that, like, we forget how dumb we all were at 20 years old, and part of it's just being young, nothing, and not having that experience in professionalism or even slowing down.

03:48 And I think that's like what I really urge, like, when I talk to companies, I really urge them to separate. Like, what is their fixed mindset about it? What are they sort of not understanding because they're now experiencing? What are they just projecting onto the younger generations? Because you're right, we do it every time a new generation enters the workforce. Like, they don't know this, they don't know that. Kids today, however, there are definitely unique circumstances that Gen Z have encountered mainly through the sort of emergence of remote work. And I think that that is really, truly, you know, we talk a lot about social media and being online all the time. I mean, there is data to support that that is affecting communication skills. So I completely agree. Like, I don't want to demonize any generation, but I do think we need to look at their unique circumstances.

04:29 Awesome. Now, as we jump into this, you have this really cool air framework, alignment, influence and resilience. And it aligns perfectly with our Sandler success triangles, except maybe not necessarily in that order. So resilience comes at the end of your acronym. But we like to start with attitude here because I think this is another one that older generations put on. Younger generations. It's like, oh, they're just not tough these days. Everybody got a ribbon and blah, blah, blah, and kids aren't resilient these days. But I also think it is probably true that resilience is tough and it gets tougher. I think as we sort of evolve as a society, we're living easier lives. We don't have to be as resilient as we had to be 100 years ago. Right. My grandparents lived on a farm in the middle of Iowa, and they had to be quite resilient. My life, not so much. So tell us about resilience and why you think this is important for engaging Gen Zs, but also for Gen Zs being leaders.

05:34 I think that resilience sort of has this popular notion, almost like you described it, like grit and toughness. And I would posit that that is true. There is a certain level of needing to be strong and resilient, you know, but I think that we too, I think in the past, it has potentially been seen as sort of a virtue to be tough and strong, but at the expense of emotional processing. Right. Like, I think that vulnerability, exactly like that, is also a form of resilience. So when I talk about resilience, I'm really talking about, like, healthy emotional resilience. Like, yet you get down, you get back up, but you really let yourself sort of feel what you feel and be able to unpack it in a mature way because that's what really, like, solidifies that sort of resilience. So you can move forward and try again, you know, and. And fail and get up and be open about it. So I do think we live physically less demanding lives, you know, like, less challenging in certain ways, but, you know, in other ways, we've had, and Gen Z's in particular have a lot of new things. Technology has created a whole world of anxieties that we didn't have to face. You know, in some ways, life was simpler. So I think that it's. It's always good to sort of cast back and think, well, you know, those, we had it tougher, but I think we really need to keep an open mindset and a curious mindset around the particular anxieties, particular pressures that, you know, whatever new generation coming through is experiencing and those sort of and, like, understanding that is really the best way to engage with them to teach them the resilience we want them to have.

07:06 Yeah, you hit a lot of good stuff there. And I think it is more nuanced than just the typical stereotypes there. And I want to flip it and ask you about the attitude of leaders engaging Gen Zs, because I think I, I kind of see opposite ends of the spectrum. One, that they're like, this is my company. This is the way I want it. They need to buck up and learn how to be professionals, or I see people sort of going the other way and letting them, not giving them enough guidance, letting them work remotely, be out on their own, and there's no accountability or no structure for them to push against in order to get leverage in their career. Can you talk about maybe what the ideal attitude for a leader is to engage a young person?

07:52 Yeah, sure. I mean, I think it's such a good question. It's so loaded in certain ways. And I hope I don't alienate your audience when I say this, but I think if you are a leader and if you have a company, I mean, your obligation is to your employees, because without your employees, you have no company. Now, I don't mean that you are beholden to them and that they get to dictate how you run your company at all, but I do think that you, to get the best out of them, that onus is on you. You set the tone. Right. You set the culture. You obviously want them to perform and sort of rise to a certain standard. But I always ask my sort of senior leaders, like, what are you demonstrating that you want mirrored back? And if you are not able to demonstrate, you know, like active listening, collaboration, what's another key thing I'm thinking about, like effective conflict resolution. If you're not a good communicator, how are they going to be a good communicator? Right. So it's a two way street for sure. And I think, you know, the perfect solution is always something somewhere in the middle. But I think if you are leading a company and you're frustrated at your younger employees, that's a sign that something needs to be done. So in my approach is like, okay, this is your belief. Let's just say, you know, they don't know how to work as well these days or, you know, they're not as resilient. Right. Okay, that's a, that's a fixed belief. And if you stay in that belief, nothing's going to change. So I'm always like, what can we, what sort of mindship, mindset shift can we take that will allow us to be curious, right. And sort of view it from a different angle. So then we can then engage with some behavior to explore that notion. So if we're saying, like, they're not resilient, they're not professional. Okay, what is my mindset shift? Can I be curious about their experience? That's sort of what I said at the start. Can I think about the world that they have entered the workforce in and what they aren't getting? You know, they aren't getting the one on ones, they aren't getting interactions. Okay, what can I do now, today, tomorrow, that will allow that sort of opportunity for them? Like, can I proactively engage with them? Can I ask them what they need? Can I be curious about their experience in order to find a solution that might make it better? You know, like, that's the sort of obligation as a leader. It doesn't mean that they tell you what you're going to do, but you sort of, you're curious about their experience, so you can find a solution.

09:58 Now, as we move to our behavior portion of the podcast, you talk a lot about alignment, and I think we do here at Sandler, too. As leaders, you have to paint the vision for the company, but you also have to align with their personal goals and values and show them why it's important for us to get there. So I think this is so huge with engaging any employee, but especially younger employees. And it seems like there's a trend for Gen Z of wanting to be more mission focused in their work. They're not just looking for a job. So can you tell us more about that?

10:34 Yeah, that's 100% accurate. I mean, the millennials were always considered more purpose driven than before. I think Gen Z's, like, flipped that on its head. They talk a lot about mission and purpose and value, but I think the misconception is that they define value exclusively as, like, doing good or your altruism. And that's not really what it is. It's having a sense of purpose. So, like, having some ownership, feeling responsible, getting good feedback, so you're motivated to do more. And I think that that's something as a leader you can really foster. Right. So a lot of the data showing that Gen Z are desperate for more interaction with their senior leaders. They're desperate for career advice, learning and development opportunities, all of those things. They want to feel like someone is invested in their growth. Cause they are quite growth minded. They are quite individualistic. They're quite entrepreneurial, like they do. This is all based on the data and some of my anecdotal evidence, but they really do wanna feel like they're part of something. So as a leader, you need to invest in them, I would say in creative ways. So we can't give every Gen Z employee a dedicated executive coach. Right. But there are ways. And one of the things I do, and one of the things that seemed to be really effective of providing those kind of learning and development programs through like, group coaching settings so you can foster community, give professional skills with a like minded group. Right. So that's one way that we've seen has been really effective in teaching those.

11:58 Skills to Gen Z. Yeah, I like that a lot. And I think there are a lot of creative ways. I appreciate that you said that word, because I think a lot of older leaders feel like they have to do it the way it's always been done or that people are still signing up for careers that are 40 years long with a pension and stuff. And that's just not the way the world of work is. So work has changed, but also I think the workers have changed. And sometimes finding somebody to not necessarily be a gig worker for you, but maybe like a mission that they're coming to your company for three to five years to learn a skill, to get an opportunity, and they may move on, but you would rather train, develop, and encourage people to move on and advance in their career than get somebody that's going to get stuck in a low level job for the next ten years. And I'm hoping more leaders have, have realized that. But what's your feeling about how we can do? Right. Bye, young workers that might be changing jobs more? And it just happens in life again. When you're younger, you're trying to find out what your, what your thing is. You're trying to find the right opportunity. You're trying to get advancements in pay that once you get older, you slow down on the job hunt. But we would expect them to maybe turn over a little bit higher. Is that true? Is there anything we can do to prevent it? Or is it even a bad thing?

13:22 I mean, I think an engaged employee is a productive employee, right? So I think, you know what? Washing your hands clean of them early on, it's just a disservice to your company, because we talk a lot about these days like quiet quitting, you know, the great resignation, all of those things. That's people who aren't getting their needs met now. You don't know if you don't know what their needs are. You're not even going to be able to try and meet them. So the first it comes back to this sort of curiosity mindset. This is how I encourage and work with organizations to work across intergenerational differences. Like, be curious, because the way it's always been before inevitably cannot be the way forever. And I think that when we're talking about this and really generational differences, we're talking about conflict, right? Like we think, oh, generational differences is different. That means there's conflict, and conflict pushes us into fight or flight, right? Conflict is a threat. And I always sort of ask my older, like, clients or leaders sort of to consider, like, what do you feel threatened by exactly, by the change? You know, be honest. You don't have to tell the staff that, but you need to be honest with yourself. Are you fearful of becoming, you know, having less value? Are you fearful of being replaced? Are you fearful of losing control? Like, what is the underlying fear? Because you sit in that fear, you will sit in fight or flight.

14:42 Yeah, a lot of good stuff there. Let's move on to the technique bucket. And you talk a lot about and interpersonal communication skills. And I think this could definitely go both ways, but this could be one where maybe leaders could influence their team a lot by being better communicators with them or teaching them what professional and appropriate interpersonal communications look like. And I think with all the channels we have now and all the different types of communication and remote work, it can be very messy. So do you have any tips, tricks or hacks for us on influence?

15:24 I think, like, you hit the nail on the head. Influence is really all just about interpersonal communication. Right? Like, how am I communicating? One of the things that I talk to my younger clients about, because it is to not make so many assumptions. It's a lot easier to make assumptions about what somebody means or feels via email or remotely than it is in person. And I think, you know, with remote work, we have that, like, we feel tense on a call or tense on email. Smash our laptop down and we're done. But we're not, like, we're not getting to work through it. Right. We're just assuming that that person feels that way. So with younger people, you know, as you said, it's a two way street. I always encourage them to be proactive, ask, you know, like, set some time aside with your boss. Like, ask them, what's one thing I could be doing better in my job now to perform? Or what's a challenge you're having, you know, how is the team perform? You know, really be proactive. Or the other day I felt this. Was that how you felt? Like, it's all like, they need to start, and, you know, Gen Z are good at talking about feelings, right? They're better than we are. So I think, like, by encouraging them to ask these questions, that engage, that creates, you know, more open dialogue. So that's sort of the onus, I think, on the younger people that I really encourage older people. Again, like, it's, if you are expecting a certain level of professional communication, like, what are you modeling? Right? Are you good at giving feedback? Have you looked at how there's so many free resources online? If you don't have your own coach like you, there's no excuse for you to not know these things. Like, you can do better. So, you know, are you good at giving feedback? Are you good at managing conflict? Are you good at sort of communicating what you need? Clearly. Are you relying too much on async comms? Are you, you know, expecting people to join big meetings that don't go anywhere? You know, like, how are you performing as a leader? Because if that's what you want, you need to have it mirrored back.

17:07 Yeah, I think we need to talk more about these modes of communications, because I see that one is very generational, that the baby boomer owners and bosses are like, I don't understand why they didn't just pick up the phone. And you're like, cause nobody does that anymore. And other times, you know, like, sending a slack message or something about an emotional issue or a conflict is not the right channel either. And then we have, you know, the differences of remote work. And then, like you said, these big meetings where maybe the all company meeting where everybody's sitting and listening to it. You could have just recorded the video and sent it out, and everybody could have watched it. We didn't need to get 200 people on the line to watch you filibuster for 45 minutes.

17:50 Exactly.

17:53 But it seems generational to me. Have you seen that, too? That like Gen Xers, I'm kind of a cusper, prefer email, millennials text message. And then Gen Zers are more like direct messages and slack tables.

18:11 I don't like sometimes trading too much in stereotypes because I think they can get fixed. But I think, you know, without a doubt, there are communication differences, right? 100%. So I think that, again, you set the culture from the top, and you set that culture with an open mind. So you really go to the drawing board and be like, what kind of conversations do we want as a company to happen? In person and what and why, you know, and perfect example you gave, like, managing an emotional, hey, I felt like you is not maybe the best vice slap. Right. So if you are, you know, if you want sort of any conflict, sort of discussions or, like, feedback decisions or, like, what I should say, performance evaluations, like, maybe you as a company, you say, all right, they need to be one on ones. I mean, either in person or online. But we need to see each other and we need to have a fruitful conversation on that. Other types of comms, like, yeah, maybe we say, okay, group meetings, we record, and then everybody logs in. Like, work it out. Like, actually think about it, because to your point, it's changed and it's going to continue to change. If you're a boomer and you've got two thirds of your workforce in 2030, Gen Z millennials, like, you're going to have to accommodate them in some way, but you can decide what's going to work best for your company and why.

19:21 Yeah, I love that. I think when you're thinking about communications, I'll just be nice and say, I think amateurs are people who are not paying attention to it. Use the channel they prefer. Thoughtful people use the channel that the other person receiving the message prefers. But I think experts or professional communicators use the right method for the right medium. Right? We're going to record a pre recorded video when we want everybody to watch the same thing. We're going to have a private conversation when it's a one on one, personal, emotional thing, we're going to document stuff and write it all down. When there's complicated procedures that you can't get out of a video, or they would have to take notes and jot it all down. And especially now with chat, GBT, and everything else in the methods available, we have this cool ability to use different modes to put video in an email to, you know, pop open a slack message really quick and really customize our communication for the effectiveness of the message, not whatever our personal preferences.

20:24 I mean, so I've got a couple of anecdotes to share there. Like, I started out as a lawyer, and I remember in a law firm, I wrote to a partner, and I was complaining about something, and he said to me, first lesson, never put it in email, right? So I learned early on, like, what you do put in writing and what you don't put in writing. So, like, that always, like, sort of shape. Because the thing is, we're so used these days to fighting online. You know, everyone's like, putting stuff in the comments and having full on brawls through messages, like maybe strangers. And I have this personal rule. I don't put emotional, like, you know, I express emotions, but I don't put sort of big emotional things in text form because it's not helpful. Like, people can feel attacked by that. They don't know how, you know, you have to have those, those kind of conversations, like one on one in real time. So I think it's the same at work. Like, you set the standard for what you think should go in emails and what shouldn't. If someone's, like, firing off an emotional email to you, stop, pick up the phone or say, we've got to talk about this, you know? So, yeah, 100% agree. Like, you've got to sort of have some rules, but they've got to be based on, like, best evidence. And there's enough out there, like you said, to know, like, you can either put your head in the sand or you can really be curious again about it.

21:34 Great stuff. Once again, we're talking with madeline Miller from coachingwithmadelyn.com dot. She does personal group coaching, all kinds of career and leadership stuff. If you're a young person that needs help, definitely reach out to her. If you're an executive that needs help relating to younger people. Coachingwithmadelyn.com dot madeline, I wanted to get to know you a little bit better before we let you go. So the first question is, at this point in your career, how do you define success for yourself?

22:01 Oh, I love this question. I define success for me if I wake up every day feeling motivated by what I'm going to do. And that doesn't mean that I'm going to love the task because often I'm not loving the task, but it means that the task feels aligned with my purpose. So I talk about alignment in my air framework. I just quickly kind of riff on that. What I felt in a lot of my career as a lawyer was that it didn't feel the right fit. And I kind of kept going. And I, you know, I quote unquote, was successful, but I didn't even like to tell people at parties, you know, what do you do? I didn't want to say I'm a lawyer, like, because I was like, salesperson. Nothing against lawyers. What was I? But the point is, like, I was like, oh, they're going to think I'm a particular way. That doesn't really feel like me, you know? So when I became a coach, I was like, oh, this is it. I love to communicate I love learning. I love, like, educational systems. I love sort of sharing ideas and engaging. Like, to me, I get to be creative and communicative. Every day I wake up and I feel motivated. Now I have a lot less security than I once did because now I'm an entrepreneur and I work for myself, but I get to dream big. So for me, I feel successful, even though on paper, you know, it does maybe doesn't look as good, maybe there's not as much money all the time in the bank, but, like, I feel successful because I'm really feeling, like, purposeful.

23:20 And driven love that engagement is so huge for just fulfillment and long term happiness. Flip side, was there a hurdle you had to get over or a failure you're most proud of in your career that you had to get past in order to be successful?

23:38 I hurdle I had to, like, I'm just trying to think particularly hard.

23:43 Lesson learned for you.

23:45 I think one of the things that I learned, probably it took me too long to learn, and it was one of the massive impetuses for creating this program I have called the Dream Career Accelerator, which helps people through this same process, is I spent too long not doing the work on myself to work out what I wanted to do. And blaming everything around me. Like, this boss wasn't good, this job wasn't good.

24:08 Oh.

24:08 And I just jumped around so much thinking that the external factors would make me feel happy and fulfilled. I didn't realize that really, you know, sounds corny, but it comes from within. Like, what am I doing? Am I doing the right work? So I think. And then, you know, accompanying that with so much anxiety, right. So much fear and anxiety and stress almost leading to burnout. And I just feel like if I'd taken the time early on to be present and thoughtful about what I really wanted to do, I probably could have directed my career and the way I wanted a little bit earlier and saved myself some of that stress and anxiety, that's probably what I wish I had done earlier.

24:44 Do you have a favorite quote, motto or mantra?

24:46 I read something yesterday that I really liked. I think it's really applicable to me right now. It's like, I trust the next chapter because I know the author and I thought that just landed with me. I was like, yeah, because, you know, again, as an entrepreneur, like, you don't really know what's going to happen day to day. It's a big mindset thing. But I was like, but I'm in charge. Like, this is my future, my career, my choice, and I trust it because I trust myself. And that trust has come with experience, time, and a lot of sort of thoughtful reflection.

25:17 Love that one. I've never heard that one before. So I love that question because we always get new stuff every time. All right, wrapping this up, any final thoughts? Things I should have asked you but didn't? Or how can you help us? Or we help you?

25:31 No, I think we covered everything. I really like talking about. We talked about alignment, we talked about influence, talked about resilience. I only would say that if there are people listening that really want support with their career. I do have this new program I've launched which is called the Dream Career accelerator. It's a three month coaching program. It's designed, poured my heart and soul, soul and all my lessons into it, and it does take you through that alignment, influence and resilience framework. And I've seen great successes with people across the board. So find me on my website. Reach out on socials. I'd love to chat.

26:04 It's coachingwithmadelyn.com dot. Again, Madeline Miller, thank you so much for being here. Until next time, whatever you are, be a good one. That's what I always say. How to succeed podcast brought to you by Sandler, the worldwide leader in sales, management and customer service training with over 200 locations. So if you need help from sales leadership, go to sandler.com, find a location near you, or reach out to our enterprise. If you have multi locations or love to help you there too. Have a great week, everybody. Good luck. Good selling.