203. Mark Evans on the unique challenges and methodologies of fractional CMO and advisory work

Just for context, how did you get out of writing as a journalist and into marketing and marketing consult? It's been an interesting journey. I'll give you the Reader's Digest version. I was working as a technology reporter at the National Post when I got approached by a VC asking me if I would work for a recently funded startup. And I did it. And um, around the end of 2008 when there was a global credit crunch, people forget about.

uh, the startup went from trying to raise 10 million to 5 million to 1 million to merging. And in the process, I got laid off. I have a mortgage, three kids, Kevin C. Whelan: must have been scary. what am I gonna do? And like a lot of people, I went on social media Twitter at the time and announced the world that I'd lost my job. And somebody approached me and said, Hey, would you be interested in putting together a marketing strategy?

And of course I lied and I said, sure, I know how to put away other marketing strategies, . And that was the beginning of my consulting career. So I kind of faked it until I made it Is the way, Kevin C. Whelan: Well you had the, you had the writing skills and you had the communication abilities, which I think is the fundamental, and you had some knowledge of business as a writer of, of, I think you wrote on like tech technology mostly, right? Or that yeah, it's mostly technology.

Yeah, A lot about technology. Yeah. Kevin C. Whelan: So you, you kind of had, you know, you had enough of the core ingredients and then all you lacked was maybe some hands-on experience applying to marketing, but it's really communicating at the end of the day in interesting ways. I find that my writing skills, I lean heavily into my writing skills even today and, and my ability to communicate effectively and to ask questions and to listen to what prospects and customers are saying.

It's all reporting skills. I learned that. From my 15 years as a reporter, so I just apply to marketing and you learn the rules of, of how the game is played. And marketing is a game, just like journalism is a game. There's certain lever that you pull, certain things that you have to do, but at the end of the day, it's asking questions, listening to what people say, and then communicating clearly.

Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, I think part of it is like, I think in, as a journalist, you have to find the lead and I think there's the line. Don't bury it. The lead, right. What's the most valuable thing that we're trying to convey here, and how do we get that articulated quickly so that the reader actually reads the article and doesn't just skim past it or buys the newspaper or what have you? And that's kinda maybe a good segue into what you do.

So maybe you can tell us, cuz you're a positioning expert for B2B SaaS. Primarily businesses. And that to me in and of itself means your job is to dig in, find the lead, and then communicate the lead to leads, the prospects to, to the market. So how did is, how did you end up in that more strategic positioning, messaging kind of realm? And is, does it have anything to do with your journalism back? I would suggest that has everything to do with my journalism background.

As a reporter, you're looking for the angle, you're looking for that story. You're looking for something that you can rally around that's gonna attract the interest of readers. There's a lot of information out there, and so what you're trying to do is boil down the ocean to the most interesting things and then present them present. The most interesting thing at the beginning, which in the industry is known as the lead, so I took that training and applied it to market.

And when I'm working with clients and I'm developing their positioning and their messaging, I'm looking for that nugget, that thing that makes them stand up from the crowd that they could go out somewhere and saying, we do this, and this is super interesting and you should at least talk to us. So I'm applying the same techniques and the same approaches that I used when I was a journalist to B2B SaaS marketing.

And there's a, I think there's a real skillset, um, when it comes, well, let me back up. Positioning is, is art and science. So some of it is creativity, subjectivity, trying to get a feel for what customers want and how they feel.

And the other part is in-depth research, competitive audits, really getting a sense of looking at data and looking at keyword data and all that technical stuff and trying to bring the two together to craft a customer story that resonates with the people that matter to an individual company and every company. Can be different in their own way. Sometimes the differences are major and sometimes they're relatively small. But as long as you stand out, you can stand up. Kevin C. Whelan: right?

Yeah. I love And being different is now better than being better. And did you go to, did, did you go to school for journalism? I did. Yeah. I went to Carleton University in Ottawa. Kevin C. Whelan: Cool. And so I guess they, they teach you about how to find the lead cuz, cuz it's not just the headline, you know, car crashes in the building. It's like, you know, um, autonomous, self-driving vehicle. What, like, what, there's always a story within a story.

And so do they teach you how to, how much of that part is through research and how much of that part is through? and I guess there's an element of empathy with the reader in the case of journalism, and I'm just seeing so many corollaries to positioning work, but were you taught a process for that? And does that, do you follow a similar process today? I was taught a process, the idea of, you know, putting the lead first and the inverted pyramid, you put the.

Important thing first in your story, and then you go from there. So it goes back to the idea in the 18 hundreds when reporters were transmitting via telegraphs, you never knew when the telegraph was gonna not be knocked out. So you always led with the most important thing. And then the second, third most important thing. So that's the, that's the origin story for the lead. So as a reporter, I was taught that and, and in time you get a sense for what a good story is. Like you get a nose for news.

And so if you're talking to someone and they say something immediately, You write it down because then you star it in your notebook or whatever your tool you're using because you say that's the story. You just in time, you know it when you, when you hear it or you see it. And I applied the same thing. When I'm working with B2B SaaS companies.

I'll talk to the B, I'll talk to executives, I'll talk to customers, I'll, I'll look at the competition and then something, something will jump out and I'll say, that's it. Now, sometimes my hypothesis. Bang on, and sometimes I'm missing the Mark A. Little bit. But the whole idea is that you, you have a pretty good feel. Like I have a pretty good feel at, at this stage of the game. When I talk to a company, I'm, I'm, I know I'm pretty short of what I, what I need to rally around.

Sometimes they just can't see it because they're in the eye of the hurricane and they have no perspective. So that's the value that I bring to the whole positioning process. Kevin C. Whelan: Interesting. Yeah, I, I do believe people hire consultants, especially marketing consultants in part because of their taste, their ability to see and, and like identify what's compelling.

in a way, it's like we're buying into their taste because we know that their tastes, they found a way to have good taste with the market, and the market therefore resonates with the things that that marketer helps, helps them put out there. So it's an interesting screening process, both in terms of probably the, the decade, the, the, uh, you know, 15 years or so since you've started this, as well as the journalism background and to be able to uncover what that thing is.

And I know you, you, you said something earlier about boiling down the ocean and. I guess it, how important is it to gather the entire competitive landscape? Like, how much does that play into what ends up being the key insight that you, you double down on to make their positioning work? To be honest, you don't know. You could talk to key executives and that compelling nugget could stand out, could be so obvious to you from the third party perspective. They just can't see it.

They're blind to it, and you can stop right there. Kevin C. Whelan: Yep. Sometimes you have to talk to executives and customers, and customers will give you a completely different story than the executives because they're not drinking the Kool-Aid. And that can get you there. And sometimes you, those two will probably get you a long way. And when I look at the competitive landscape, what I'm looking for is I don't wanna replicate the angle, the nugget, right?

If I'm excited about something that a company does, and I think that's gonna allow 'em to stand out. It does no good if their biggest competitor is saying the exact same thing or even their second biggest competitor. So differentiation means you're trying to be different, tell a different story, but you also have to vis-a-vis the competition. You also have to stand apart from them as well. Otherwise you sort of blur in the background. So it depends.

Um, yeah, that's the, that's the, I guess that's the short answer. It depends. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. Yeah. That's valuable insight. And so tell me a little bit about your, your business. You're doing, you've, you've, I know you've, you've gone on a bit of a journey, doing a lot of fractional C m O stuff. We won't go too far into the history, but more, more focusing in the last, say three years, three to four years. Um, you've done advising fractional c m O stuff.

Uh, there's been a lot of, you've been doing some implementation along the way. Um, so let's talk shop a bit, let you know. What, what is your. What are you finding is your main bread and butter work, and how has that evolved over the last three years or four years? Okay, so three years ago I took a full-time job as a VP marketing for a B2B SaaS company. And I have to be honest with you, I hated every single minute of it. It just wasn't my thing.

I had done consulting for, I dunno, 10 years or so. I loved the independence, I loved the flexibility, but I got, I got a little got, I got a little nervous cuz the market was a little soft and I had an opportunity to get some experiences as a full-time employee. So I took it. When I got let go from that job, uh, I'm just at the start of covid, I went back to consulting. It was almost relieved to go back. It was almost like I was going back to the place where I belong and.

I totally, I took a, it took me a few months to get going and to be completely transparent to everybody, Kevin and I have worked together. Kevin, I approached Kevin about doing some coaching, uh, which was invaluable in terms of allowing me to structure my business differently and to actually build frameworks and processes and methodologies to underpin what I do. Because to be honest with you, my consulting business before was like seat in my pants, make it up as I go.

Trust me, I know what I'm doing. There wasn't a lot of substance. I mean, I did good work. I think I thought I did would work, but I, I, I didn't have the structure, um, to provide people with confidence that I was the real deal to make them see that there was a journey that I was gonna take them on. So that, that was a big difference in how I structure the business. And I would say to anybody out there, structure is important. Methodologies are important.

Um, selling packages, how people can use Kevin C. Whelan: Let's talk about the, let's talk about those packages a bit cuz you do have, you, you productized, I don't know, I don't, I don't think you had them fully productized when we met, but you do have them pretty clear on your website now. Um, do you wanna describe roughly at a high level what your main kind of core packages are? Just high level. So I have three packages. One is at the fractional CMO level, Kevin C. Whelan: Okay.

Let's stop on that one real quick. And so do you currently sell many of. sell. A few of them I can only take on one or two a month because the reality is a fractional cmo. If you're a part-time cmo, it's like being half pregnant. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. It's really hard to be responsible for all the key. Indicators, all the KPIs and ultimately leads in sales.

When you're working one day a week or two days a week, it it, you, it's a level of commitment and you're, you're involved with all the key stakeholders, you are fully integrated into the business, or you need to be. Kevin C. Whelan: Mm-hmm. I think that's a big challenge and I've, I'm, I'm struggling with whether. I can actually be successfully be a fractional cmo, to be honest with you. So I can take on one and it'll take them enough time that that's all I can do.

My sweet spot, um, is strategic advisory, which is mostly the way. The difference is that I work one-on-one with the entrepreneur. Or I work one-on-one with the, they have a, may have a director of marketing who needs strategic support, and I work one-on-one with them. We collaborate, we partner, we brainstorm. Um, I support them and, and, uh, help them be more successful, less time involved than being a fractional C M O. Um, more focus on strategic guidance.

Um, you're not dealing with suppliers directly, for example, you're not managing a team less intense, and I can handle. I can handle 3, 4, 5 of those a month at the same time, which is a, which is a great way to operate. I love doing that kind of business. It just feels very natural to the kind of work I wanna do. And the third is coaching.

Working with marketing leaders, you know, providing perspective, brainstorming, collaboration, people who just feel like they're operating in a silo, and it would be great if they had someone to talk to. So I'm happy to talk to 'em as well. Kevin C. Whelan: Well, let's unpack all those. Um, even just, let's start with the last one you said around marketing leaders.

Cuz I do a little bit of that and I've worked with other people who are trying to do similar things and sometimes the word marketing leaders in the context that we provide ends up being a sle. They're, they're supposed to lead, but they're not quite senior yet in many cases. Sometimes they are, but usually they're more, you know, they came from. Uh, department or they, you know, they're, they're junior going on intermediate or maybe they're intermediate.

Um, have you had much, like, do you do much coaching currently with, with those, uh, to me it's a small part of my business. So I imagine it may be similar with you, and I think you also coach other marketers sometimes. Do you find that marketing leaders are like executive types, are the ones that hire you or is it more the junior and intermediate level that need a bit? I don't do a lot of it, and it really depends on who's looking for the help.

Sometimes with junior marketers, it's hard for them to get buy-in from their bosses. I wanna hire somebody to help me. Kevin C. Whelan: Yep. The boss may think, well, why don't you just go on Google or YouTube and do the work yourself, you know, save me some money. Uh, senior marketer leaders, the problem with with them is that marketers tend to be the smartest people in the. They don't need any help because they can do it all. So it's not really a big part of my business.

And to be honest with you, if you want me to coach you, if you don't want me to provide you with advice, you should just buy the strategic advisory package and you'll get more of me. You'll get, I'll be more engaged in collaborative than, than a, than a, than an inexpensive coaching package. Kevin C. Whelan: yeah. Cuz you kind of, it feels as though you're trying to lead a company through a small appendage as opposed to working with, say the CEO and. Higher level. Right.

With the strategic plan, you're much more at the executive level talking as peers. And then the other one it feels, I think it, this is an area that I've tried to break into more mentoring in within an organization, and I think there's gotta be a place for teaching people's basic skills. Like there has to be like, so you even mentioned leader, and I talk about leader as well, but I think there's probably even more demand for, what does a newbie marketer look like? Let's say they have a.

. Are companies paying? I'm just asking, maybe you don't know, but like do companies pay to help level up their junior marketer, but they don't need the strategic help, but would you teach them skill? It would be a skills question at that point, right? My take is, A lot of them are junior marketers or tacticians, as opposed to strategists.

So what they're trying to, they've been hired to get stuff done, so they'll probably pay to take tactical courses to go on Udemy or LinkedIn and take things that are gonna help 'em do their jobs better, get the grunt work done. They're probably not looking for strategic help. Most of these junior markers are likely working in smaller organizations where it's just a matter.

Posting on social media writing, blog post, you know, running their s e m. So I don't know whether those kind of organizations are looking for marketing mentorship. I mean, strategic Advisor is probably where I pay play best because you get to do strategy and a little bit of tactical support. I don't want to get my hands dirty. I really, at this point in my career, I'm not, I want to, as you say, as you always say, you know, Use your head, not your hands.

And that's where a senior marketer like me provides the most value. I'm too expensive to do tactical work. That's, I mean, and I mean that in a, in a good way for clients. You don't want me doing that work cuz you can get it done less expensive. But you do want me providing with strategic guidance to make sure that the work, all those best practices and it's high quality and that's the value that I can provide. Kevin C. Whelan: and it goes to your taste, right?

Like I think it's not just like have Mark write up that press release and the social media and all these things. It's let's make sure that we're doing the, the things that Mark would suggest in the way that Mark would suggest we do it because. , they're kind of buying you for that worldview part in part, right? So maybe not everything, not everything's gonna fit through your lens. You're there to guide, not necessarily be the, the filter.

Um, but yeah, it's, it's an interesting thing that it's not just like the, you know, the tactic, tactic tactic. It's, well, are we doing the, are we doing the things we should be doing? Is that moving us toward our business objectives? And how should we be doing things differently Yeah, Kevin C. Whelan: yeah, it's my favorite. I mean, what surprises me when I work with B2B SaaS companies is that the marketing. Advice that I offer them. To me, it's 1 0 1. You do this, we operate this way.

How about this idea? Well, from what I've seen, these are the best ways to move forward. I consider that block and tackling strategic advice, but for clients, it's, it's almost earth shattering. It's, it's, it's gold because they go, wow, we didn't even know that we should do that. I didn't even know we should do that. Because in time you, you get these skills that you build up and you take them for.

The more work you do, the more you learn, the more experiences you have, the more inherent knowledge that you build. And it just becomes a natural to share it because that's just what you do. But for a lot of companies, they're very immature from a marketing perspective. So anything you give them, any guidance you give them is high value. And I think that's one thing as a consultant I need to recognize is that it's a, it's all about value-based advice.

And one really good piece of advice could be worth a lot of money if it converts a prospect into a customer, right? If it Kevin C. Whelan: or if it pro going. Kevin C. Whelan: or if it prevents them from going down a path that would be expensive and time consuming.

And then I've seen people doing like, I think it's agile web development where they're, they code like a part of a page and show it to you, and then another part of a page, and next thing you know, you're like, you've got this Frankenstein of a website because you worked with the wrong supplier who didn't have their own. as opposed to working with someone you wouldn't, you know? So introductions are another part of what you do.

Um, so I like that service myself because it's the best of, like, you've got a vision for how marketing should operate and you've got some structures and you've got templates, and you've got ways that things should work. You've got people that you recommend. So it's the best of all of it, but it, it's none of the least valuable stuff you could be doing.

Which would be the most expensive, like for you to project manage that would take you tons of hours, but would be the least valuable thing that you do. When frankly, the B the business should be able to do that in-house. It would add more value, they'd be able to control it better and be more equipped for the future. So that's the advisory stuff. And so that's your sweet spot. It sounds like it's mine as well. Going back all the way up.

So we started at the bottom, going back to the top here, uh, with your fractional CMO stuff. One of the things that I do, that I've evolved into is more of an. C m o, meaning I'll do that for three months at a stretch, like four, the six months, but never more than that. And I won't take on clients that don't have plans to bring marketing, leadership and control in-house cuz it's in their best interest.

Have you considered kind of tweaking your position, positioning around this is a short-term engagement? Have you done that at all yet? absolutely. Because I've, I've run into a situation now. Okay, lemme back up a step. So, fractional CMO is a premium priced product. You know, if you're working a day or two days, you're expensive. And one of the realities is that, Companies are looking for instant gratification. They want results tomorrow.

And as you know, it takes time to get up to speed in terms of the product and the company and the industry. It takes time to develop strategy and turn it into tactics. So if you're three months into an engagement and you really haven't done much other than get understanding the company, set the foundation in place. A lot of companies will look at the spreadsheet and go, I, I just paid this person a lot of money and they haven't done anything. Meanwhile, you've done.

A lot of work and a lot of the grunt work necessary. And I, I find them in my experiences that, that there's just too much pain involved, financial pain involved, because they don't recognize the value. And so, yeah, like you, I've, I've essentially, if I was going to get another fractional CMO gig, I would say, this is a three month gig. I'll do all these things for you. I'll put all these pieces in place, but I'm, I don't wanna be.

Cmo, I don't, I don't wanna be your fractional CMO for a longer period of time. Um, I just run into too many situations where, um, the customer gets on, like after 3, 4, 5 months, the customer gets unhappy and when they're not happy, they get frustrated. And you, and then if. Then you don't get any referrals, you don't get, you have no love going forward, and I want my customers to be happy and I want them to provide value.

And I, the last thing I want them to see is, is that a malign item, an expensive line item, as opposed to a valuable contributor. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, I mean, that's the thing right in, in order for you to be compensated at the level you deserve based on your, your ex expertise in what the market is demanding from you, uh, you need to charge a lot.

Like, I, I remember in the early days I charged around four, four to five grand to do this, and I was able to get two clients and I, I managed to sustain that for a couple years and then did other, other work on the side. And at the time I was like, that's great. I'm crossing six figures on two clients and whatever. But I also knew that there was an endless n need for more, more, more, more. And yet you're inherently a part-time person.

So deliverables have to be limited to the number of hours you can work in a day, even in when you bring an outside support. So the model itself, the practical steam model, to me is a good stepping stone to more strategic advisory work. And I think companies should.

Working with more junior intermediate folks and bringing in an advisor rather than bringing in the most expensive al cmo you can have to do as much as they can irk out within one to two days a week, because then at least they have a, a set of hands that can implement over time and the right direction, and then the right outside support to help accommodate that versus flipping it on its head and saying, who's the most qualified fractional C M O we can bring on and then expect them to be an.

That's often what happens and whether you want it or not, you become an employee like shaped figure, but much more expensive and much less output in terms of your implementation. Yeah. When I think about, uh, companies do things backwards, They hire the, the, the expensive strategist and then it takes time for tactics to happen as opposed to doing some tactical work, writing some blog posts, you know, creating some, some activity and then having someone come in and shape and polish and direct.

And I think, you know, it sounds like both you and I are talking to ourselves out of being a fractional C M O and I don't wanna, I don't wanna. You know, paint a, a bad picture of being a fractional museum. There's some fractional CMOs who are very good, very experienced. They take on a limited number of of clients and they do an amazing job. I think that's the only thing about the fractional salmon model. There's different flavors, there's different variations.

There's different, you can hire people for different periods of time. Some fractional CMOs would love to go into a situation and have a multi-year engagement, and they'll devote tons of time to you and some like me. And, and it sounds like you, I like to move around. I like to be agile. I like to, you know, come in, do my thing. You know?

Then, and I guess the other thing I should mention is if you hire me as a fractional CMO for three months, the, the, the natural transition, which I've talked about with clients now is downgrade me, right? I'll become your strategic advisor. Kevin C. Whelan: Bring it in. You know, when you're bringing it in-house and, and if you don't need me, that's great, but my job is to set you up for the next person and the next person can use me if they want.

Um, and that seems to be sort of an a, a very authentic and natural way to work that kind of package. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, I think it comes down to a couple things. One is what is the size of the business? So if they're very small, there's a lot of fractional CMOs who work with small, small businesses at that say $4,000 a month kind of range. And they're great. They turn out the weekly newsletter, the four blog posts.

They manage a social media or, or they, you know, and then they, they outsource some ads and. Coordinate with the website designer, you know, so it's straightforward, basic stuff. It's when the companies get bigger that the fractional CMO model to me breaks down because there's just more and more and more complexity, and the very least there should be an in-house coordinator, not have the fractional c o and I guess this is up to the industry to define what that fractional CMO does.

Uh, but coordination and project management takes a lot of time and isn't the most valuable. Um, so yeah, it really depends on the type of client. If you're a small business working with. To me, they're more like producers. They're rather than, because a small business would never hire a cmo. They don't even hire, they don't even have a, you know, a director level, anything. So why would there be a C M O?

Uh, so to me, you're hiring a producer, someone who's gonna do some implementation and manage more implementation, but call it a fractional CMO if you want, but it's kind of a misnomer. can we talk? Can we talk money? Can Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. I love money, love so, okay. So, so in my mind, when it comes to this fractional CMO strategic advisor paradigm, or the amount, the, the, there's a line sort of around four or $5,000 a month.

Kevin C. Whelan: Mm. Below that line is, There's less financial pain involved for the company. So if you're a strategic advisor and you're charging somebody three, $4,000 a month, You're providing lots of value. You can show lots of value, but when the CEO O looks at his expensive, it's, there's not this holy shit moment. I'm paying that much person, that person, that much money.

When you're a fractional CMO and you're working a day or two days, or two and a half days a week, you're probably in the, you know, the six, seven, $8,000 a month. You Kevin C. Whelan: or more that or more. You extrapolate that over a year, you could easily pay a fraction CMO a hundred thousand dollars a year.

Kevin C. Whelan: or more Or more so that, so you'd expect, as the CEO entrepreneur, you would expect that if you're paying somebody that much money, they better be totally committed to you and your organization. So that's where it goes back to my original comment about it's really hard to be a part-time CMO because you're, you have so many responsibilities, you're getting paid so well that you're, it's almost an obligation. Do the job full-time.

And in fact, in those cases, they should probably hire a, a seasoned, you know, executive, you know, with 10 years experience and pay them $125,000 and Kevin C. Whelan: Well, if they can, I think. they can. Kevin C. Whelan: that's the problem, right? It's hard to get good talent. That's senior level for less than 200, you know, and so those numbers have maybe gone up a bit right. Kevin C. Whelan: where they were.

so the reason I like strategic advisories that can operate really, really nice in that three to five range. I can deliver a lot of value. I can make my customers happy. They don't look me at at me as a major expense. So the relationship can be happy and it can be long term. And that's what I want as a marketing consultant. I want clients for the long term, six months, nine months, 12 months.

I mean, if you're running a business, I don't wanna run a volume-based business, you know, I want happy customers who stick around and see value. And, you know, obviously the role evolves. Like, you know, there's, there's a lot of work that you do up front and then your, your role changes in time and that's, that's art and science and that's a lot of, you know, ha knowing what a customer wants and how they feel is a lot of his intuition.

And knowing how and when the relationship changes and how much you should charge them is a big part of that process as well. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, I think part of it is like what you're describing previously about being super, like super expensive. It's a relative basis, right? Because for, for some clients, 10 grand, they've got many line items that represent 10, 20, 30, 40. They may be spending 30 grand on ads. It would make sense to have a $10,000.

You know, head of marketing in that particular case. So it's a really a relative basis. If you are the tall poppy, you're gonna get cut relative to the rest of flowers, right? And so, or at least you're gonna be heavily weighed on. So I think it really comes down to putting the right price and the right set of services together for clients for their individual needs. Yeah be and making sure that the value that you're, the price you're charging is aligned with the value you're creating.

Knowing that it's gonna take six to 12 months for these projects, they come together and start to produce business results. Cuz there's very few things. If you could just buy money, like you wouldn't need marketers or you just buy money and you wouldn't need business. Right. So it's inherently, things inherently are difficult. They're creative. They're technical, they take time to produce value in an organization.

. And so that's why we have to think in terms of, well, it's not $3,000 or $5,000 a month. It's $50,000 a year, and if we only move the needle by this percent over in, in your business, then the, the results should be substantial. And reframing the mindset of, you know, it's not $3,000 a month, it's 50,000 over the year, but we're gonna move the needle by a million and we're gonna set you up for success for many years to come.

That's a different mindset and it partly is our job as marketers to to paint the right. To talk, to make the business case with your clients. Say, why would you hire me for 150 when you could hire someone who's good for 90 and me for 40? And then now you have a, a senior level person and a very good, competent executor.

And all my experience in, you know, Rolodex and templates to equip that person, that's a much better value prop than a, than an overworked c m O for 10 professional CMO for 10 grand a month, in my opinion, for most c. One of the hard things about being a consultant is actually turning down business and telling people that they don't need you because their money is better spent in other places. With other people.

But I think in the long term as a consultant, you gain credibility and you get better, happier customers when you're really selective about who you can offer value to. And, and, and I always lean into, into the, I want entrepreneurs to be success. And I want them to make the right decisions. And if, and if me saying no to them, no, don't do this, or No, don't hire me, is the, is the right decision, then that's the best way to operate.

It may not be the smartest way to operate financially, but I can't operate any other way. Like I, I, I think that, you know, the best consultants are are totally customer centric and they do everything for their customers, so their customers to be successful. And in the process you're success. And, uh, telling somebody not to use you or telling them to use somebody else who's better at a specific task is, is, is a great way to operate. It just feels so good when you do that right.

Kevin C. Whelan: I think that's the critical mindset you have to have as a consultant and a marketing consultant. It's being a fiduciary advisor, putting the interests of your client and prospect before they even sign any contracts. You're already acting in their own interests. You know, so if it means not hiring you, if it means exploring it longer to see if maybe you can work together or carving out an initial project, say, I don't know if I can help you here.

This is different than what I'm used to. I can apply my process to this. , why don't we, and I've done this recently, why don't we explore a month or two together and let's just explore the problem and create some, paint, some, some options for us for the future. And if then it feels right, great. And if it doesn't, I can either point you to someone else or we can part ways, but at least you've limited the risk and everyone goes in feeling good because now we're de-risking the engagement.

And, uh, you've, and they can tell you're acting in their best interest, which is rare, like, you know. And the only way you can do that is if you market yourself effectively, which is you. Separate conversation altogether. Yeah, I. initial engagements, I, I asked for three months with all my engagements, and I could ask for six. I could ask for an, an annual contract, but I don't because I, I frame it in the sense that, let's date, let's see if it works. Let's see if there's a good connection.

And the other thing would be, and you taught me this, is that if you're not happy, don't pay me. If we're a month in and you're not getting value, Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. I'll give you your money back. No harm, no foul. Like I don't wanna take your money If you're pissed off and you're not getting the results you want, and the three months, you know, from a psychological point of view means they're not locked in.

Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. Most customers, most of my clients are nervous or a little bit leery about marketing, and it's a commitment for them, so they don't wanna lock themselves in for a year. So I say it's three months. I know. The vast majority are gonna stick around longer than three months. Kevin C. Whelan: good fit that we're, we're gonna get momentum. They're gonna be happy. The good, yeah, the good ones. And Kevin C. Whelan: is mute, which is good. Which is what you want.

Mutual, mutual But I don't want 'em to get nervous. I don't want 'em to get their guard up right away saying, oh, this guy's gonna, you know, walk us in and do we wanna do, I wanna make it easy for them to say yes. Cause I know if I pick the right clients, they'll get, they'll go, they'll get lots of value. Kevin C. Whelan: And that's the thing, right?

It, it kind of sounds like you are similar minded to me, which is I'd rather be around for a good amount of time and help clients really get things done. Cuz I just know that things take a long time. I, I, I don't want to. Get them to this stage and charge the most amount of money, and then be like, good luck implementing my suggestions, my strategies, my plan. I'd rather stick around and that.

Then things take long, and so I wanna price it accordingly with a longer term engagement because I know that that's what most clients need. However, and a lot of the value is, a lot of value happens in that first three months. And so depending on the client, it's like sometimes there needs to be three months of concerted work and. but that shouldn't be at the price of a 12 month commitment.

Like it, you know, sometimes there's a lot to be done in that first three to six months to get them on the right strategic direction and get, get all this work done, do your research and your, your positioning and all that good stuff. So, I don't know if you've thought about that at all, but it's, uh, it's a tough line when. You know, I guess your view is that if they don't stay with you, then they're not a great fit client anyway. They've just gotten a bargain on strategy.

Another way to look at it is you've just delivered a ton of value and now they're gonna go away and, and execute it. Shouldn't you be commensurately compensated for that upfront strategy, positioning, you know, road mapping. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a balancing act because you're right, a lot of value is delivered upfront. So sometimes you go in with a strategic advisory. Engagement. You deliver a lot of value for 3, 4, 5 months.

And then, then once you sense that you're gonna be offering less value, you downshift proactively downshift and say, listen, we've done a lot of great work together. We're in a great situation. We're, um, you know, really what you need me to do is more of an advisory maintenance mode. What I suggest is that reduce the size of our engagement so that you can spend this money on other things gonna make you successful, and then you continue the relationship.

Cuz no relationship is gonna last forever, but you wanna manage it so that it lasts as long as it's healthy. The other thing I will say, With new engagements is that, especially now, there's such an emphasis on leads, leads, leads, like your, the only KPI they're looking at is leads. They're not looking at brand awareness or thought leadership. And so when you go into an engagement as a consultant, you really have to ask them two questions. One, why do you wanna hire me?

Like, what are your motivations? What are your triggers? What are your pains? And two, what's success gonna look like after we've done all this work together for three months? What is, what's gonna make you say, mark, you've done a, you've done work, Kevin, you've done a great job. I love working with you.

And so you need to paint the, you need to get them to paint the picture of what they want so that you're both operating from the same page, Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, I love that sets, that sets the stage for, for a healthy relationship. Kevin C. Whelan: And yeah, and not just the relationship, but also the work you do. Cuz the temptation is, hey, we should be doing more stuff. We should be on social. Why aren't we on Twitter? Why? Why don't we have a Pinterest strategy? Why don't we.

. And so without a clear objective, it's hard to create a clear strategy with, and then without a clear strategy, it's hard to create a clear plan. So when someone says, Hey, mark, shouldn't we be doing, you know, shouldn't we be on TikTok? But it turns out you're, you know, target market is nowhere near TikTok then, or the goals just don't map that yet. Then you say, yeah, he, the goals are gonna determine what we do right now, unless we are gonna change our.

these are the things we need to do because we can't, there's no one who can do everything no matter how much resources you have. Uh, so it's nice. I think objectives are the, the secret to both healthy engagement in terms of expectations and in terms of, so you, you know, you're doing what they're looking for and also what you end up the, the content of what you end up doing.

Because if your goal is to grow by a hundred million and we're just, we're running around with something over here, then it means we're not really thinking. We're not, it's a lot easier to work backwards from a, a goal than it is. In terms of the engagement and the marketing strategies and plans, than it is to just do, do stuff as much as the budget will allow. And one of the, yeah.

One of the challenges that I run into is that I always start every engagement with positioning and messaging, which is the customer story. Kevin C. Whelan: Mm. Unless you have that in place, then it's really hard to put together a strategic plan where you tell that story to the right people in the right places, and, and so clients have to recognize that there's a journey that I'm gonna take them on. They're gonna have to be patient because without the story, your marketing's not gonna work.

and, and that you need to have, you need to be upfront about that. And you need to, for them to recognize that, that you are, you're on a journey together. It's, it's gonna be structured as a win-win proposition. Um, and that's why I like the methodology First, we're gonna do this, then we're gonna do this, then we're gonna do this. So that's one side of it. The other side I will say is that I'm gonna walk before you run kind of.

A lot of companies want to do lots of stuff right away and minus, let's do less stuff. Kevin C. Whelan: The right on fewer channels. We'll do the right stuff in the right ways, right? And you combine those and it just sets the stage for what marketing should look like as opposed to this unrealistic expectations. Kevin C. Whelan: yeah.

Cuz like someone may look over their shoulder to a, a peer company or a friend's business and go, oh, they're doing all these things and I wanna do all of that and that's what's gonna help me get more funding. But if the, yeah, if the goal is, Something else then, uh, yeah, I don't know where I was going with that, but it, it just sort of changes everything and, uh, that's what's gonna let you to ramp up in the, in the end is, you know, based on the realities of their business.

Um, so switching gears a little bit. So, uh, be, you know, we talked about being a fiduciary. Thank you kind for kind of sharing the business model stuff a little bit. I'm a big believer that marketing is what gives you permission to turn down clients and to be their fiduciary before they. Hire you, uh, to act in their best interest and only take on clients that you know you can help or believe you can help. And it also gives you confidence to allow you to charge the race that you deserve.

Because if you, if you don't have leads, then you don't have much internal leverage, so you're always gonna undercut yourself and it's a race to the bottom. So marketing allows you to be a better consultant, cuz you can also relax during your engagement. You can also, you're fine with, with clients attrition and you're not trying to clinging on to the leads or. Clients for too long past their, their due date. Yeah. It doesn't create any conflicts internally.

How do you approach marketing at the base level? We can, you can talk about that in terms of the, the tactics, the channels you use, or you can just say like, what's your core philosophy around how you market yourself, not your clients, but yourself. Hmm, that's it.

So, One of the biggest things as a marketer is that you're, is that if you, if you're not marketing, no one knows what you do and, and, and why you matter unless you've got this amazing reputation and you're just, people are just coming to you unsolicited. So I, I think you have to be marketing all the time. You have to be creating content all the time to demonstrate thought leadership. Different perspectives.

Um, you know, advice on how to do things tactically to position yourself as a value added resource. Someone who they can trust, someone who they're confident, but at least they can have a conversation with who's gonna help 'em. So I'm very engaged as a, as a writer and as a content creator to, to be active. And my channels, uh, for as a baby SaaS marketer is LinkedIn, uh, for the last. You know, three years.

LinkedIn has been a game changer as far as my business concerned, opening up opportunities beyond Canada that I never would've had before. Covid when I didn't use LinkedIn very much. Also, a podcast, also have a newsletter, so I've got my fingers in a lot of pies, but it's all about ground coverage and making sure that. It, it's hard for people to miss what I do and, and who I, I serve them.

So I'm very, I'm a big believer in marketing and, and it's, listen, the realities of being a consultant, you gotta do in addition, just to serving your clients. You gotta market and you gotta sell. And if you, if you, all you want to do is do the work, then you should probably go work for somebody. But if you really wanna be an entrepreneur, then marketing and Sally. Part and parcel of how you run a business, and I couldn't run my business any other way.

I, if I didn't market myself, I would probably disappear into the woodwork before anybody knew it. Kevin C. Whelan: Well, I always say marketing's the only thing standing between you and and A j o b. So you know, for anyone who's out there, kind of a little lackluster, maybe meaning to get that newsletter going or write that content or post on LinkedIn, which can be scary cuz like my LinkedIn is like, It's like a, it's like Facebook.

It's a timeline of everyone I've ever known professionally over the last decade. And so, you know, at some point you have to get over it and say, you know, these, you're serving people you're looking to serve. You're educating them so that they can see that you have value to add that they're sampling your wares, their, your expertise. So getting over that and, uh, and publishing allows them also then to get educated on how they can hire you and get the most value out.

Well, one of the realities is of consulting is the balancing act between, between doing and selling or doing and selling slash marketing. When you're doing and you're really busy, you have less time to market yourself. But if you don't do that, then you don't, your pipeline doesn't build. But if you're marketing yourself all the time, then you don't give yourself enough time to do the work.

So you're constantly sort of straddling the fence between the marketing and the doing, and, and, and then both gotta happen all the time. Like you, like when you are super busy and I get complacent going, you know, I'm, I'm gonna post less on LinkedIn. I'm not gonna write my newsletter this week. And then it's easy to get lazy and then you, then all of a sudden you turn around and you got no leads. It's like, oh. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. on LinkedIn. I should have, I should have made that video.

And that's one of the, the biggest challenges about being a consultant is you have to run a business. Um, you just can't consult with clients. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. So insightful and that literally the same thing happened to me. You know, the co-working thing.

My, you know, my, where I consult, uh, a lot and it was, you know, I, I marketed myself, got really busy during covid and then it, it's, luckily it's been sustainable, but, uh, it's easy to take the foot off the gas and then you sort of feel it, you, your relevance kind of wanes. You feel like your relevance wanes. And then if fewer people reach out and the only time you can coast is when you're going downhill, you know?

And. and yeah, it's, uh, it's a tough line to, and uh, so that kinda goes back to like, what is your, what are your core practices, right? So you're really good at your newsletter and your LinkedIn publishing and, uh, you know, how do you create it? Like a, what's your, what's your, I guess the question within the questions, what's the 80 20 that needs to get done, no matter how busy you are, what, you know, maybe you can answer that question.

Like, let's assume you were, you were a ramp, but what marketing would you still do if time was a big constraint? What's the most important piece of marketing that. LinkedIn for sure. Kevin C. Whelan: Yep. no doubt about it. Like if, if I backed off of LinkedIn, and LinkedIn is a very addictive creature. Kevin C. Whelan: Mm-hmm. . Especially when you get the engagement you get. And so you feel like you have to be there all the time.

But it's like any, it's like a business that just runs Google Ads all the time, and that's the way their business runs. And so for LinkedIn, that's a no-brainer. Um, you know, I could, I could back off my newsletter. Um, it's probably doesn't generate as much ROI as I want it to. It's a good way to, to stay in touch with people. And my podcast has been a little bit up and down recently, you know, I, I, last year.

I published every week and then I now it's now it's two weeks because when you get busy, but I could let those slide, but LinkedIn cannot outlet slide and, and one thing I will say about LinkedIn, it's not just about publishing content and making yourself look smart and position yourself as this domain expert, it's also being aware of the relationships you're building.

And then the key to sales and consulting is conversations, is reaching out to people on LinkedIn saying, Hey, I'd love to jump on a call and compare notes and, and I would say as a consult, As much as you can do digital marketing. Um, it's all about relationships. And when you talk to people, it opens up opportunities, not necessarily the person that you're talking to, but maybe someone they know.

So if I was somebody thinking about going into consulting, I would recognize that conversations are probably the thing that's gonna, and relationships are gonna fuel my business and make him move forward. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. I always think marketing is like magic in some way. You do a bunch of things and stuff just sort of works, but it really comes down to people. Who do you know who's talking about you? Who's referring you, who, who's thinking about you?

And so the more conversations you open, the more connections you make in a real, like in a real way, not like a sleazy way, you know, Hey, buy my stuff, but this notice you've been doing this. I just thought that was interesting. Wanted to say hey, or maybe we can get on a call sometime and share notes on what you're doing that's working. Um, it's amazing how people are such a key turning. And I did an analysis of.

Clients over the last five years and many of them came through referrals or I got in front of audiences due to a few key people that I knew through webinars and stuff and podcasting and, and yet, so it really just goes to show you how important even a few key people can be in those relationships Yeah, well Kevin C. Whelan: being a great place for that. I mean, the reality is people buy from people. People don't buy from companies.

And when it comes to consulting, you're definitely buying from people. When people feel that they, they know you. If they see you on a video and they feel that they know you, and they. They trust you and they think that you're a good person. And then that just gives you an advantage in terms of trying to convince 'em to buy services from you. And, and that's, uh, that's a key part of my marketing is almost, it's almost like likability.

I wanna be seen as this, this guy who's just out there providing people with advice. And I'm not aggressive. Um, I'm not a sales driven person. I don't feel, I'm not salesy. I'm just doing what I do. And if you wanna talk to me, that's awesome, and I'd be happy to talk to anybody if. If you approach me and, and I don't really know you, and you seem like legit, sure, I'll, I'll jump on a call with you. You know, I, you never know what could happen.

Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. I think that's the benefit of podcasting or video creation or even just publishing content on LinkedIn, is that it creates a bit of a asymmetrical intimacy. Like I feel like I know Mark, you know, especially in a digital world where we don't have as many opportunities to bump into one another.

and when your clients are in all over North America and maybe Europe and, and Asia and who knows, uh, just putting out content, especially high fidelity video or audio content, people do eventually feel like they know you better. Such a powerful thing marketing can be, and especially when you're a consultant, they're really buying into, they won't do business unless they feel some degree of comfort. And the way you create comfort is through familiarity.

The, the way you create familiarity is through showing up over and over again, ideally in some way that I can. . I can see. I can see you and hear you and you know. And that, and that's the weird thing about Zoom these days is that you can produce all this content and you can be on a podcast. And when you jump on a Zoom call with somebody, that awkward moment doesn't exist because there's, you already have a relationship with them. They already have affinity to you.

They already Kevin C. Whelan: Or at least it's less awkward for them too, because they feel like they know you. Exactly. And, uh, and yeah, so you can jump into conversations and you can pursue opportunities and you can figure out what they want. Uh, and going back to your fiduciary responsibility, one of the things that I look for is I'm, I'm upfront. How can I help you? What are you looking to do?

Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah. And if they, if what they say aligns with about how I can help 'em, I say, I think, I think there's a good fit here. We should explore some opportunities. If not, I'll be totally upfront and say, I'm not for you. Like I don't have the skillsets you're looking for. Um, but I can make some recommendations about some people, people you should talk to, and that's also good marketing too.

Kevin C. Whelan: So even as you said, so we've talked about asymmetrical intimacy and we've talked about, um, is through zoom and video and sharing your content and then zoom calls, and that's good. You know, I feel like we've, we've known each other, we havent. I've seen you in, I've seen you speaking on stage.

I have that advantage over you, but you, you obviously, we didn't know each other back then, so it was just weird that we ended up meeting, uh, and then I met someone else in our community, uh, Daniel, um, in person. I was in Toronto and you, we did a little podcast thing together and, and that even so in person changes how you feel as well. So I didn't realize Daniel was. Much. He was tall. He's a tall guy and like, and, and like, and, and that's not what I, that's not the thing I realized.

But you feel something a little bit more different when, when you're in person. So the last part of the marketing thing that I think is important for us as we exit this.

Multi-year, you know, lockdown mode where you got comfy in our pajamas is getting out again and finding ways to meet people in real life, whether they're your clients, your prospects, your peers, your peers can go a long way toward referring you and, and I think that's just a valuable thing going where you're ideally your clients are. And cuz that's a whole different level of fidelity that we've lost a lot.

Yeah, that's gonna be really interesting to see how that evolves because so far, and I don't know whether things are different in other parts of the world, but in Toronto and the GTA where you and I operate, I haven't felt that hunger from prospects and clients. To get together. People are still pretty comfortable operating from home and not commuting and not having to drive 30 minutes for a coffee meeting an hour.

Like there's, you know, life is busy right now and people are trying to be as efficient and as possible and they've discovered that working from home is really awesome and, but, At some point in time, you, you have to take that proactive step. If you really wanna move your business forward, you've gotta meet in person. I just haven't got to that moment yet.

Maybe when the summer rolls around and I'm feeling clear about going outside, but it, it is part of the business, but it's, I just don't know how quickly that's gonna come back. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, and I notice a lot of my clients that are still going to conferences or they're going again, and so conferences are a good way to kind of meet up with peers and other people.

You know, if they're, if you notice that your client, a couple of your clients are gonna a conference and maybe you ask them, Hey, are you going to any conferences or whatever, then it's a good sign. Maybe you can go there too. And who knows, maybe speak at it, which is another very powerful, long residual benefit. Yeah, I would love to go. I'd love to speak again, but, uh, it's, Kevin C. Whelan: it. yeah, I enjoy it.

It's nice to, and, and the thing is, once you're on stage, people think you're smart. If you're invited to be on stage, that person must be smart. Now, it may not be entirely true, but in marketing, you know, perceptions, reality in, in some sense. So that is marketer doing marketing is posing on LinkedIn. Being on a podcast and being on stage and convincing people that, that you're the right option for them, among many, many options. Kevin C. Whelan: Yeah, it's true.

Yeah. So I think it's about tasting all these different marketing channels and, uh, um, yeah. I, I wanna be respectful of your time, mark. Thank you for this like shop Talk episode. It's fun to kinda get into the weeds and nuances. Uh, I'll leave you with one question. Uh, has there been a book. That you've read in the last number of years that has changed your thinking and or trajectory about your business and how you operate?

It's an interesting question, and I would say if I had to look at the, I don't, I could, the problem with business books is I read about 25 pages and I, and I get bored because most of 'em have a Kevin C. Whelan: Gotta get the yeah, exactly. A thesis. But I would say that, um, there's a book by Robert Bloom. He was the former c e o of publicist, which is a big advertising agency, and he wrote a book called, um, the Inside Advantage, the Strategy that Unlocks the Hidden Growth in your.

And for whatever reason, it's about positioning. It's about targeting your customers. It's about creativity, it's about advertising, and it's about campaigns. It just was a really good story and, and it was unlike a lot of business books, I actually had a narrative. Uh, it, it involves, you know, the creative process and, and how customers feel about your brand and your product, and I just, that was just one book that's always stood out.

I read it years ago, my brother gave it to me, and of all the business books I've read, it's one of the few that's actually I've, like Hungrily read from cover to. Kevin C. Whelan: I wonder if that set you on the path in part, if that was part of the fuel that burned you through marketing, other than like how much of that inspired you? Subconsciously Probably.

Uh, and the other, um, I, I'd say if you, if I wanted to give you like a bonus, um, there's a guy named Steve Krug, um, K R U G. Um, he's wrote a, like a number of book books called, like, don't Make Me Think is one of his books about when you get to a website, Don't make people think, just do. And the other one is Rocket Surgery made easy, awesome books about communicating really effectively and clearly.

So you, you add, when you look at what the books that resonated with me then, you know, the way that I think and the way that I wanna operate. Um, but any like, yeah, check out Steve k Cro, he's awesome. And Robert Blooms book is really good too. Kevin C. Whelan: I will take a look at those. Yeah, don't make me think. As a web design classic, over 25 years old now. Great book surgery made easy, and Kevin C. Whelan: is it? Great title. they're almost like a, the one two punch for for Steve Crook.

Kevin C. Whelan: I love it. Well, mark, thank you so much for, uh, chatting, being such an open book, and, uh, I look forward to talking to you again in the near future. Thanks for the invitation. Kevin C. Whelan: So that has it. That is the interview with Mark Evans. I hope you enjoyed it. I know I did, even when I was going back and listening to it again, taking some notes and reminded me of a bunch of topics that I want to talk more about in detail as time goes on.

If you need more help with your marketing practice, whether you are a freelancer or a consultant or an agency owner is solo agency owner, typically who are who's contracting work and trying to figure out maybe how to productize your business. There's plenty for you in the Mindshare community. Right now, the URL is kevin.me/group. And you can sign up, you can learn more, you can get training, you can get the way it works is there's twice a month.

We have a group coaching call where you can get your questions answered, get feedback from me and others. And it's a really great opportunity to just to kind of explain the things you're working on and talk about the challenges you're facing, or just listen in and hear what kind of challenges people are working on. Usually there's a topic of the day that we set for those as well. So we talked about things like marketing or sales.

Sales or email marketing or you know, how to deliver certain things or. client challenges. There's all kinds of good topics that come up in the course of, of the conversation. So that happens twice a month. And then we have a training that we go out once a month as well. And that training covers various topics. All my workshops that sometimes I promote to the public and sometimes it just reserved for the membership.

For example, the latest one we had was SEO for consultants with Tsavo Neil, and he taught us how to choose keywords that are the right difficulty and opportunity size and optimize your website for the keywords that drive business results. As much as this is going to help you. Help your clients do better. SEO. This is really about how to make your website search engine optimized. So that was the latest one that we had with a guest expert.

We've talked about how to price package and sell custom consulting engagements. We talked about how to create highly product profitable productized services for your consulting side. It's a lot of it is a lot of it is, you know, strategic and very tactical. So there's always a training. There's typically always a, a template or so that follows with it as well. We've talked about copywriting, we've talked about methodology, we've talked about your website and how to structure that.

So there's tons of good training in there and past recordings to previous calls. If you want to dive into the details of what we've talked about in the past and the topics there. So there's lots in there. You also get a private slack access with, with the pro plan. So all the features are unlocked and you can reference past conversations. Anytime you want. And it's just a really great place to hang out and, you know, So we're growing that list. We're growing that group of people.

If you're interested, go to kevin.me/group, that is the mind share community. I've got lots planned for it. And I won't share any secrets just yet, but. Trust me. It's a good idea to get in. Now, if you're thinking about it. And, uh, I look forward to sharing more details on that in the coming weeks and months. So that's it for now, my friends, you head over to kevin.me and make sure you're on the mailing list. If you're not already.

And as always, if you can share this with a friend, someone in the marketing space, a strategist, a freelance or someone who's trying to create, leverage around their expertise, someone who's trying to grow their business to attract more clients. Create more of a formal process and a methodology. There's tons of resources included in the membership as well as I'm kevin.me. And the best way to stay in touch with all of that is to get on. My mailing list. And that's all for now. My friends.

You take care. Thanks for listening. Bye.