The purpose of this podcast, not just this episode, but this whole How to Protect the Ocean podcast and the business that I do is to meet people who are doing phenomenal things within the ocean and to help conserve the ocean, not only from an environmental perspective,
but also from a societal approach. It's great to see when people are starting new things or doing what they can with what they have and being able to really move the needle in terms of ocean protection and marine conservation protection, as well as engaging local communities. And that is what we're going to be discussing today. I want you to be prepared to get inspired because I have Carlos Malo,
who is the founder and CEO of InOceana. It is a phenomenal organization that goes around the world, works with local communities to say, hey, what do
you need help with? And we're going to help you do that. He's an engineer turned marine conservationist, always sticking to his engineering blood and being able to use engineering practices and logic to build phenomenal things just from conservation center in the Canary Islands or building out a eco hub essentially for tourism as well as conservation projects and
coral research projects in Costa Rica. And even working with people in Fiji to train them on how to do marine conservation from a technology point of view and work with them from afar. It is phenomenal. And I was truly inspired after this interview. So that's what we're going to talk about on this episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Let's start the show. Hey
everybody, welcome back to another exciting episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin, and this is the podcast where you find out what's happening with the ocean, how you can speak up for the ocean, and what you can do to live for a better ocean by taking action. And today we're going to be talking a lot about action, but also community engagement. We're going to be talking about innovation and using technology to take on some of the biggest challenges
in marine conservation. We're going to be talking to Carlos Malo, who is the founder and CEO of InOceana. It is an innovative oceanic organization that really hits home of, hey, do you want to do something about the ocean? Then just go ahead and do it. Not through easy processes, Carlos describes how hard it was to quit an engineering job and going into doing something where he was inspired to be through a conservation project they did in Thailand and start his own organization to do what he
is doing now. And when you hear what he's been doing, it's absolutely phenomenal. You know, I try to inspire people through these interviews. And when you get someone on that can inspire just like Carlos can, you run with it and you let them do the talking. So I am not going to talk any further. Here is the interview with Carlos Malo, engineer and the founder and CEO of InOceana. Enjoy the interview and I will talk to you after. Hey Carlos, welcome
to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. Are you ready to talk about Thank you. I'm very excited as well. I'm so happy that you could be here. First of all, happy new year. It is my first interview of the new year, so this is going to be a good way, a great way to kick off 2025. We're going to be talking about your organization in Oceania, what it's all about, how it came to be. You were an engineer and now you're a full-time I'm sure you're using your engineer practice and sort of workflows and
everything like that, but now you're full-time marine conservationist. We're going to talk about how that happened. We're going to talk about the building of this organization and sort of where it's gone and how far off. You're in Costa Rica. You're from Spain. You're traveling all over the place. It sounds awesome. It sounds busy. And so we're going to find out all about that. But before we do that, Carlos, Okay, well, I am, I guess, an ocean lover to start. I love the ocean. And I
am from Spain. As you said, my background is in engineering. I was working in different construction projects in Spain and in England, actually. And my expertise is in harbor, marina, sports construction, so it's very related to the ocean, but in a very different field. So I actually followed the path of my dad, who was a very successful developer in the coastline of Spain. So he built a lot of ports. I was born by the ocean while my dad was leading construction of ports. So I
guess that's where the love for the ocean is coming. And yeah, and along my career, I decided to change my Well, and that's what I wanted to dive deep in. So obviously we know your passion for the ocean. Growing up around the ocean, along coastlines,
very easy to fall in love with that. What in particular do you remember from your childhood where you Yeah, so I was born in the north of Spain where the ocean is pretty rough, there is big waves, but in the summer it gets like beautifully calm and I remember when I was a kid like just free diving every day and like spending a lot of time by the beach and with my friends. Yeah, I
think that's where I really connected to the ocean. My grandfather was the first one who brought me to a clean-up back in the 90s when clean-up wasn't even a thing. But I was living next to the production of a lot of fisheries and there was some trash. So we were doing clean-ups and I think that opened my eyes that the ocean has a limit. And but again, I think it was living by the ocean what actually connected
Yeah. Yeah. Well, then doing all these cleanups and everything, it kind of you kind of see things that you don't expect to normally see, some that are good and some that are bad. And depending on your age, you may connect with that. I mean, we've all been there before. We've all seen like sandals and stuff on the beach that nobody's don't belong to anybody. And you're wondering where do those come from? Like, how do they I remember specifically this situation that I was fishing in the port,
and I was so excited because I caught this big fish. And again, I was like six years old, so this was 1992 or something like that, so I was just a little kid. And when we opened the fish at home, it was full of pollution inside, and we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, how is this possible? The fish was alive, and it has plastics, and it has a lot of bad things inside of Yeah, I can imagine. I can imagine. Now, you grew up as an engineer, though. You always wanted to be an engineer. Your dad was
an engineer. Was that just like, dad's doing it, so this looks pretty cool. You get to build some pretty cool things. I feel like engineers have a different way of thinking. It's a very logical kind of thinking. Was that sort I would also say that I wanted to be connected to the ocean in my career. So I wanted to work connected to the ocean. And in my country, in Spain, if you study marine biologists, you know you are not going to have a lot of opportunities to work in the field. And
you will probably be a teacher, or you will be doing other things. So it was also a way to find a path into the ocean Okay, so like working more by the ocean, building things. Did you ever have that thought process of like, I want to be an engineer, but I want to help the ocean and not build things that would maybe not like not that your dad wasn't because ports are obviously very important. And there's different ways of doing it.
But with that focus, the love of the ocean, did you ever have that conservation I think so. I think, well, conservation, marine conservation specifically in my country is not a big thing yet. It's still growing. It's still far from, I don't know, in California, everything is about marine conservation. That doesn't mean that it's good, but at least people are more aware. In Spain, people are just starting
to connect to the concept of marine conservation. seven years ago when I started in Havana in Spain, people were like, but what are you doing? What is this about? Nobody really, but I, yeah, I think from my personal perspective, like when I was working in construction and I understood the impact of construction and the environment, that's where I started like connect to, hey, there is something wrong here. We are not thinking
about all of those animals that we are killing, right? And that was kind of the path. that drive me straight to starting this. So did you work as an engineer beforehand in the construction business? So I was, at the end of the university, I was kind of mixing, working as an engineer and also finishing the university. So I would say I was eight, almost 10 years in the construction industry. So I have a,
yeah, it was some time. I have a very vertical career where I started as just an intern, but then I was a project manager and like I was going up and I was having more responsibilities and I was in the front line of understanding what we were Yeah. And what's interesting, too, is because I mean, it's really difficult to give up or change a career when it's so promising, you know, like it's in
your blood. You know, you know the industry probably inside and out by now just because growing up with like watching your dad do his thing and then you do your thing for 10 years. You started to get that piece where you're like, OK, I can do something else here. But what was it that kind of took you away from a job that probably would have kept you very well employed and pretty comfortable throughout, probably Yeah, I think there were a number of situations that it was like
adding up. So first, I started working in the Canary Islands as an engineer, which was very close to the ocean. I remember building this highway by the coast and I can see all the ocean and I can see the whales from the construction site. And So I was so fortunate to be in that. And I was thinking like, wow, I want to be closer to the ocean. I want to do something to support those animals. And then the biggest, I think the biggest trigger for this was I took
my holidays to go to Thailand. I just went for a whole month. I took a whole month of holidays like disconnecting from everything. And I meet these people that were doing marine conservation. It was like a marine conservation center, a small one in a tiny island in the Gulf of Thailand. And then just being with those guys and seeing the energy, the passion and seeing the projects and being underwater with them and like doing coral restoration and like, I don't know, like
identifying whale sharks and things like that. It was just like, I don't care about my stability in construction. I want to find a different path and to do what actually makes myself fulfilled. And I think that was the biggest trigger, But it's really interesting too, because you say you went for a month. Now, I know Europeans, you guys do it differently than here in North America, where you guys love to enjoy your vacations and you love to explore different parts of the world, which I think is
fantastic. I think we need to do that more over here. To go away for a month allows you to do this type of exploration. And we went to Italy for two weeks. We wanted to do all the tourist sites. I've never been to Europe. I've been once, but not in Italy. And so I'm going around looking at all the Colosseum and everything. You don't have time to just relax and just be like, oh, this is a cool thing. Let's look up some conservation projects. You're there for a month, and you get to explore. You
don't just fall upon this conservation group. You probably looked them up and said, OK, you volunteered for them, right? Yeah, so you volunteer with them, which is great. And then it allows you, I mean, just to think, it pretty much changed your path. to going from, you know, I'm going to be an engineer and I'm going to work around the ocean because I want to be around the ocean. I get to see all these pretty cool things. Now
you're like, OK, I want to help out. So that's a big like I talk to a lot of people who are in the process or in that process of being inspired. But like, where do I go from here? You know, like like I want to help here. You're you're in the situation where you're like identifying whale sharks and doing coral restoration. Like that's a lot of things to do. Did you ever feel overwhelmed of like, where do I go from here? Like, how do I obviously
you're trying to help the ocean, right? Like, that's what you want to do. Where did you like, where was your thought process on that? And did you have trouble figuring To me, I think that specific moment was about understanding that in the conservation field, there were a lot of biologists, there were a lot of environmentalists and people with a scientific background. But when it comes to engineering, there
is not that many engineers that are contributing to this world. And I saw, yeah, I saw kind of a gap or maybe a hole that I could fulfill. And I just, yeah, I felt that there was something. I didn't know exactly what it was, but I came back to my normal job. I was working in England back then. And I was like, okay, what I can do? So I started thinking about well, water quality could be something we can start doing data analysis of water quality. We can
build a crane to support like the artificial reefs. And I have like a bunch of seven different projects that I wanted to, and like maybe only two of them actually then work. But it's about just bringing ideas to the projects. And for people that are in this moment that they don't know what to do, it's like my advice Well, I agree with you. What I love about what you were just saying there is you start to think like an engineer, right? If we're doing coral restoration, things are heavy. It's not
easy. You need a crane to do this. We can build this. We can use technology for water quality and maybe connect to a phone cell tower and get the data back and stuff like that. You're thinking like an engineer. Which not a lot of people do. If you talk to scientists, especially academics, you'll see them like, oh, we've got to engineer this together. We've got to piece this together. We've got to build something. And as a student, you learn that. You learn
to be handy. You learn to really DIY yourself, do it all yourself at that point, which is really cool. But I think that's what a big thing is. Not a lot of people think about that. I think, and you kind of mentioned it, there are a lot of biologists, a lot of environmentalists, but I think that's the first thing people think about. when they talk about marine conservation, when they think about the ocean. Well, I don't really want to go back to school to do a four-year degree in
marine biology. And I always tell them, like, you don't have to. You can do it yourself just by bringing your own skills. If you have marketing, you can start telling stories. If you have business, you can help run organizations. If you're an engineer, you can build stuff, which is pretty cool, because I never able to
do that. of so that I think it but it's bringing your own personal and your own skill set to the table to see what you can build now once you got there you had your own ideas now you're working for a company now or at this point you're working for a company What made you decide to come up with Inoceana, like create an entirely new
non-profit organization? Even then, even going from non-profit to a, compared to a private company, but what made you decide to do stuff on your own instead of joining another movement? It was like everything in life. It was a process. I didn't know what I was going to do in Oceana when I quit my job. I wanted to go to the ocean. I wanted to be back in Thailand. I wanted to help this conservation group. But I didn't know that Oceana was even in my plans. What I knew is that I love Yeah,
I love building things. I love innovation ideas. And actually, I was very successful in my career in England working as an engineer. I got this award of innovation in construction. So I got this huge recognition. I was like, I think I can do something with this that is more aligned with my values and with my
passion. And when I was in Spain, about to just take off to go to Thailand, this guy from the environmental, kind of somebody who was working in the Ministry of Environment in Spain, came to me and said, have you considered making a non-profit organization? Because the government is going to start submitting grants or something. I was like, I have no idea how to do that, but let's just start looking at that. And I took
my mother and my best friend, and I was like, I need three signatures, guys. Let's put together the signatures for the bylaws, and let's submit this. And that was the very beginning of Inoceana. So it was a non-profit organization in Spain. Today, Inoceana is a 5-1-2-3 in the United States, a non-profit in Spain, a non-profit in Costa Rica. We'll have to get you up in Canada, too, at some point. I love it. You mentioned something that I didn't really expect.
You mentioned that you quit your job, and then you were going to fly to Thailand. But right before, that's when you started Inoceana. That's pretty scary to just quit your job like that and then move on to something else, not knowing especially what you're going to do. At that time, were you going to get paid by that marine organization or No, no, I didn't have any expectation of payment. I have like $30,000 savings of life from my engineering curriculum.
And it just flew over to support these people and to kind of see where my path was. And it was just to be totally, completely open. It took me three years to start seeing money coming. So I needed to live with $30,000, I needed to live three years traveling around the world. So it was a challenge. Yeah, for sure it's a challenge. But from a personal aspect, how was that dealing with... Because there's a lot of stress around not having money, right? Especially when you're trying to do
something and you're trying to push for something. How was that on your own mental health or on the way you conducted business when you don't have money as you're trying to find money wherever you can? How did I mean, that was a big struggle for me and I guess for everyone. Every entrepreneur probably goes through this situation where you are like, oh my God, I don't have even the money to bring my girlfriend for dinner. I cannot pay for that. I
cannot afford that. And you know, I don't have money to rent a house. I need to stay in my friend's or family or whoever's house. At that time, I was already 30 years old. I was coming from this career where being an engineer, my money was not a problem. I have a nice place to live. The security was strong, was very strong. All of my friends were just growing, buying houses, having kids. I'm not
able to just go out for dinner. It was just a When Innocean started, what was the vision when Well, I would say that the vision has changed a little bit into the details, but the reality is that for me, the vision is the same. As a final goal, it's about changing the mindset of people and about changing how the society works. That's kind of in the philosophical level. From a practical standpoint, it's about restoring the ecosystems underwater that are damaged, and
those who are still not damaged protect them. So it's kind of this combination of But to do that, we need to work with the communities and with the other organizations, with other people and bring them to the water. I've just been for eight years bringing a lot of people to the water and just to show them what's going on there. And then, of course, we have Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are a lot of projects. So trying to bring people to the ocean is admirable.
Obviously, people need to get connected to the ocean. They need to see what's happening. Obviously, they see the beauty, but they also see some of the problems. Like Costa Rica is fantastic. I've been there before. We were discussing before we pressed record. But I remember the first rainfall that we had, the amount of trash that came up on the beach just from all the water coming from inland as well as coming back from the ocean. It
was insane. It was like night and day to see that. Obviously, they did a great job cleaning it up, but you're just like, well, that's interesting to see how much stuff comes up on the beach on a night sort of storm. So you get to see some of the bad part about what's happening in the ocean as well, especially from inside the coast. So again, you know, I asked the question like when you start an organization like this, you got to focus on specific projects.
You're an engineer, you can build a lot of things. And that's probably where you're thinking at this point. Where did you begin? What was your first? What was your first The first project was in Thailand, but it wasn't actually the project that I wanted to launch. My idea as an engineer was artificial reefs. So I was like, let's build this artificial reef concrete base that we can put there and we save the reef. And when I arrived to
Thailand, I discovered there were so many people doing that. And most of those projects weren't even working. There were almost dumping stations that people were throwing to the ocean, any kind of trash you can imagine. And it was a disaster. There was so many tunicates growing and like all the other falling organisms, but when it comes to coral, there was no recovery. So I switched my mindset and I was like, okay, what is what these people need? And
we focus on measuring the water. Because as an engineer, I'm good at building things, but what engineers do the best is assessing. It's assessing the environment, it's assessing what is around. Because before you build a bridge, you need to know what kind of soil you have, what is the weather, what is the rainfall, all of that. all of the parameters. So we started putting a lot of water quality kits into the dive centers in Kotal. That was the island I was working
in. And people were starting measuring the water quality for us and getting data that supports those artificial reefs, Now, this is interesting. You're getting people to get to take water quality samples. Who were you getting? Is it just local community members? And So the island of Koh Tao is a very well-known diving destiny, and it's a tiny island, eight kilometers long, full of tour operators. So we were starting with the tour operators there, and
they were kind of joining. We were giving lectures, we were giving materials, and they were taking sampling for us, and also they were using that as a tool to educate other people. So it was a very, in my view, it was a very strong project, and And you, did you supply all the instrumentation for them? Like you, Yeah, we supplied. The first round was all about actually me bringing from Spain a lot of water quality elements, like tools. And then eventually, we were in the second round, I
couldn't afford that. And we didn't have a funding opportunity. But the dive centers, they have money. So they were able to buy So they see it as a, the operators see it as a plus because they are showing their people, like the tourists. what's happening and people want to see healthy. And again, I like I'll be honest, like I know I'm biased, but if I go to a tour operator that's doing like snorkeling and stuff and they're like, yeah, we've been measuring this area for a while and this
clarity has got clear. Sometimes there's there's some bad stuff, but we know when it's bad. We know when it's good. We know when it's to come and we're trying to work to get better. Then you feel as a church like, oh, OK, this is we know this outfit's good because they want their water quality to
be good. Right. And that's so that makes a a big benefit. So it almost so much of a benefit that they're willing to buy their own gears And the good news and there is not a lot of good news in the world today. But one of the good news is that I see more and more people like you or me that are very aware and they want to learn more. So there Yeah, which is great to see. And that mindset changed. I guess in Thailand, too, you said there's a lot of
people doing conservation work. Yeah. You talked about the outfit that inspired you. There's a lot of people doing artificial reefs. When you approach them, the tour operators, how did they first sort of, were they warm to you? Were they saying, oh, yeah, we'd love to work with you? Or were they a little skeptical about you coming in to being like, In Thailand, I think they were very open, but in Costa Rica, at the beginning, it was very hard. It depends on where. It
changed a lot. And now, the organization has grown a lot, and now we are starting new challenges. We are starting projects in Africa, and man, that's a next-level problem. I don't even know how to approach that situation. But as I was saying, the more conservation is a normal thing, the more open the people are, because they see us as a
win-win. But in places where conservation hasn't been a thing before, they are a bit skeptical that you are coming to remove the, I don't know, to steal the business model or something, things Yeah, yeah, it's true. I can see, you know, and you're an outsider in a lot of these places, so I can see people being a little skeptical, I'm sure. In in the past, you know people have taken them for a ride or try to take them for a ride And then you
have to be a little skeptical, right? And and I think it's it's important to when you like actually well I'll ask you this is like when you do approach them and and like places in Africa places in Costa Rica and Thailand How do you approach where they you can gain their trust? Like what So in the past it was different because as I was saying, we didn't have anything. I have a bunch of volunteers that were following me wherever
I go, but that was it. And it was much easier because when you are small and when you have like a small operation or no operation and you are living with the rangers in the national parks and the people meet you there and you are like there with just your broken, almost clothes because you are just in the middle of nowhere and you don't care too much. People are super open to you and they are like, okay, these guys,
what a cute situation, whatever. Now that Innocena has operation and we have boats, we have buildings, we have like operation, it's different because the approach is more professional, I would say. And sometimes the communities are a little bit more skeptical because they are like, oh no, these people are big and they just want to take advantage of us. So it's about building trust. It's about showing
slowly but surely how much you can do for them. But in the past, again, I didn't need to be careful, because it was just me And it's easy, because if you're starting a project, they're probably just like, well, I don't have to put in anything. I don't have to pay that much money. And it's like a couple of volunteers. And then they get to meet you personally. Now I can see it, like people seeing big, because they're probably meeting some of your staff
and some of the other people. you probably have materials and stuff, and they're like, oh, this seems really big, you know, and I need to, I need to, you know, do I need to worry about this? What's their ulterior motive, even though you don't have one? And I mean, there's a lot of there's a lot of questions that go on there. And I think it's really important, just, it's important, I guess, is more of the communication aspect, right? It's when you do community engagements, like,
we're here to help you what, like, is that the question you ask? Like, what It's, I think, coming from the engineering perspective, communication is always the number one challenge in any project, in any project. But I think when it comes to marine conservation that has so many different stakeholders, you have the fisherman community, you have just the community in the village, you have the universities, the other organizations like the core of our community. It's such
a challenge to make everybody happy. That's where I am every day now, trying to understand how to make an impact that is empowering communities, not making communities more Yeah, exactly. Well, I guess it must be fun for you when you go to a community and you say, What kind of help? We're an organization that helps the ocean. We're in for marine conservation. We want to help the ocean. We
want to help you. Let's talk about your problems. They probably present your problems and you're like, all right, your engineer brain's going off and you're just like, okay, this is how we help. That That's my favorite thing to do. Actually, I have a very good example for this. Two months ago, I went to Fiji because I have an opportunity to start a project there through some collaborations. And
I arrived to this community. I didn't know anyone. And, you know, I don't know if you've ever been to Fiji, but in Fiji, there is a lot of indigenous pride and respect. So the chiefs are in charge of giving permits to do anything. If you want to go fishing, you need to speak to the chief. If you want to go diving, you need to speak to the chief. So the first thing I did is go to meet the chief and drink Cava with him. Cava is like this kind of the traditional drink.
And speaking to the chief, he was like, OK, so what can we do here? I have no idea of your land, but you tell me and you hear them and you see the problems and then you start building kind of connection with the community. And where we are standing now is that we are training 10 kids of that community in marine conservation. So we are making them divers and then they are going to be trained in coral restoration and other things. And eventually, that team is going to be leading the
project in Fiji. Instead of bringing people from the outside, you just train the people in the place. And I think that's a very interesting Yeah, for sure. And that technology transfer as well. It probably makes it easy for your operations too. You can always check in on them, provide any kind of support that they need. But let's be honest, they're the ones, the local communities are always the ones that have the biggest stake in protecting And they know everything. It's like, I'm not going to
teach you much. I can provide you with the tools and I can be basic things, but you have the real knowledge of what is going Yeah. And I mean, it's so cool because you're able to talk to a lot of different communities. I mean, just from a few conversations, you're able to build some nice big projects. How do you pay for all this? and pay for yourself. Let's be honest, funding in marine conservation is not easy to
get, as you well know, right? How did you really start fundraising for these areas, and how has that evolved over time, over That has been the hardest part of this because asking for money is not easy. I'm building business models out of things that are good for the environment, the ocean, the world. It's the hardest thing. It seems like this world is easy to make money when you do bad things, but when you want to do
good things, it's just so hard, man. So at the beginning, as I told you, for three years, I was just putting my savings and friends and family fundraising was the thing, like FNF. And then we started kind of being successful
with some specific grants, and we were applying for small grants. And then I had the idea of starting a non-profit organization in the US, so in a way that we can have an umbrella funding, like an umbrella for all the organizations that we can fundraise money in the US, because You know, people can get some benefits in taxes if they donate to Oceana. So that was kind of the process. It
took time to start. It helped. And then, of course, it has been a lot of me visiting a lot of people and convincing them how important is what we are doing. It's like literally many nights without sleeping, without knowing how I'm going to pay my team, because I have 25 salaries at the end of the month that I need to pay, and 25 salaries is money at the end of the year. So now, actually, this 2025, I can say that is the best situation I've ever been in the
organization, funding-wise. But we are still far from where I want to be. But if you ask me six months ago, I probably didn't sleep thinking about how the hell I'm going to find the money for the operation. It's Is it a mix of grants and then private donors I think it's a mix between grants, private donors, and service fee from some business, like business inside the nonprofit organization. So we partner with some hotels and
we do some projects for them. Like for instance, in Costa Rica, we run a tour operator with a hotel that we provide with all of the community science knowledge and we put some tour guides there, like we work with them. So it's just a mix of Yeah, for sure. That's smart. I like that. Because if you think about it, you're in control of that, right? Your organization runs that operation. And it's a way to bring in money, not only to pay them to do it, bring in money, plus you're educating tourists
on the local flora and fauna, right? Exactly. The local areas. And then you can talk about the conservation projects that you're working with them. Plus it makes the hotel look good because it's like a business that they work with you. That's really great. So do you only do that in Costa So our two main projects are happening in Costa Rica and in Spain. Those are the two locations where we have most of the people. In California, we do some awareness projects and some documentaries
and small things. And now we have a project starting in Fiji. That's the one I mentioned. And also we have a European-funded project in the Philippines. We are also starting another interesting project. And those are the main locations right now. But my dream is to escalate this organization to a next level and we could go all over the place. I will be traveling from country to country, That's phenomenal. I love that aspect because as you say, finding grants, finding donors, it's
not always the main source of income, right? You need to have your own services. And I'll be honest, as a podcaster, I see it too. When we talk about podcasting, everybody's like, well, you get sponsorships, you get sponsors, and everybody wants to be a Joe Rogan or whatever, and you get major sponsors. But that's not the case for
a lot of people. The sponsors are really difficult. grants and donors right then you can get like people on patreon or people like to donate to support but even then it's really three percent of your audience if you don't have a huge audience you're not going to get a lot of people donating and so it having your own services and having your own business where you can make money off of that and use it almost as a marketing tool. This one is you just bring it back in as education and awareness
and building. I just think it's it's it's phenomenal allows you to do what you need to do in the type of business you do, you can probably do it in Fiji, you can probably do it, you know, in Spain, you can probably do it in Costa Rica, you're doing it in Costa Rica, you can do it anywhere you want in the world, Thailand, And you can work with tour operators to get that, or even a percentage of that to get there. There's a lot of
partnerships that you can work with to be able to do that. I think that's probably the best long-term sustainability for a nonprofit organization is to do that. And the money just goes right Yeah, yeah. Not easy to set up, because you're basically setting up a business within a business. How does that
work? you know, in terms of time, like that your staff puts into getting the business, as well as, like, is it the same staff that does the eco tours, that does the research, or that does the conservation Not necessarily, of course. Of course, I have the mentality that when you work in marine conservation, the staff should be able to do anything. Like, it's kind of, we need to be flexible, because marine conservation is flexible. Like, the ocean changes all the time. But
I have people specialized in different things. So normally, the person who is in charge of this collaboration with this hotel is different than the people that are doing research. And actually, I just come in now from a meeting with all of them, and we were talking about that specific topic. It's important that everybody can help everybody, but also there are
Yeah, and different specializations. But I'm sure everybody, because you do so many cool things, I'm sure some people are like, oh, I want to try that a little bit, or I want to try that you want to make them happy, right? You want to make sure that they have a good spot. I love it. I love it. Now, in terms of the project, so So if I tell you the truth, we have like, I don't know, in total maybe over 40 or 50 projects. But we decided to narrow down the projects to more like bulks
of projects. So if I tell you in Costa Rica, our main projects are coral restoration, but we don't do coral restoration as normal coral restoration. We are actually working on the immunology system. So we are trying to understand why some corals are surviving all of the climate change situation and trying to kind of focus on what we call super corals. And this concept in the scientific world is a tricky concept because it's
not as easy as a super coral and it's going to survive. But yeah, we are trying to find those corals that can survive the future of this planet. The other project in Costa Rica is about the humpback whales. So we monitor the humpback whales, we put hydrophones, we go in the water, we take photos and we jump in the water with them, which is the best part, of course. And that's the second one. And the third one is about the plastic problem.
So we do cleanups all year round. And now we are working on this other business model that is the kind of the precious plastic concept. So we just take the trash from the beach and we clean it and then we go through the shredder and then we stress it and we create furniture. So we are creating chairs, benches and like a lot of things that we are going to sell to the community instead of them going to the supermarket and buy things like they can't really buy
something that support the ocean. That's in Costa Rica. If we go to Spain, It's similar, but in Spain right now, the biggest, biggest project we have is the building of a marine conservation center. So Europe, we applied for a big funding and we got it. So we are leading the building of a new marine conservation center in the Canary Islands, which in my heart, this is like the biggest thing because this is coming from us being crucial in stopping the construction of a port.
that I built the road for. So I built the road as an engineer, then we were able to build the port, and now we are building a marine conservation center in this area, which is a very change of mindset. And that project is probably one of the biggest we have at the moment. And just to finish with the Canary Islands, we also
do a lot of cleanups and we are working on the seagrass. So we do seagrass restoration in the Canary Islands, because we don't have corals as we have in the tropics, but we have seagrass, which is a very Well, I mean, it's still just as productive, right? If not even more productive, some may argue, in terms of what's necessary. Plus, provides a lot of coastline security, and it's a huge And as a very quick number, in the Canary Islands, we lost 50% of all the seagrass in
And what was that caused by? Was that just climate change, or was that degradation? I can tell you that I've seen it with my eyes and I think the biggest stressor is the coastal development and all of the tourism. It's just growing and growing and that damage. Because climate change, and there is a lot of papers that show how the temperature rising in the ocean is not really affecting the seagrass as much as the corals. So
Yeah, yeah, I can see that. What's interesting is people don't care about seagrasses as much as they do about corals, right? Man, that has been such a personal fight to show everyone that there is plants under the water and everybody, is that an algae? No, no, they are plants. They capture, they sequester carbon from the atmosphere and we need it for You know, I think we need to change the word for it. In English, anyway, everybody calls it seaweed. So
it's like a weed. So they're just like, well, it's going to grow back again. I'm like, not if you destroy every part of it. I'm like, think of it as a plant. Would you go into your garden and just take out everything because you feel like it's weird on your feet? Because that's what everybody complains about. It's weird on my feet. I'm like, look in it. I remember I took my, we had some seagrass around like we were at
a hotel in Mexico, just like on the Yucatan Peninsula. And I had my nephews and my daughters and they're like, oh, look at all this, like they call the seaweed. And I was like, no, I'm like, this is like, let's go look like grab your snorkels. And it was very, very shallow. It was like maybe three feet of water. I said, grab your snorkels. I'll take you over there and we'll go
see if there's we can see any fish or any cool critters. The amount of stuff that we saw, you know, Carlos, it was phenomenal. The kids couldn't believe they want to go back each and every day. I'm like, just because it looks like a weed doesn't mean it's a weed. Just because it doesn't have a flower necessarily on at the time doesn't mean it's a weed and it's bad for it. It's great for the environment. It's great for biodiversity. And it was a nice little teaching lesson
It's such an incredible ecosystem. And in the Canary Islands, we have the opportunity that this is the food for the green sea turtles. So we bring the people, and many people is like, wow, we need to keep the seagrass for the turtles. Well, and that's what it is, right? It's like you're educating the tourists that come over to say, hey, look, you want to see more green sea turtles or sea turtles? Let's protect this seagrass because that's what they come for. And they're not going to be here
if there's no seagrass. And so if you want to come and I think there's a balance there, right? Where a lot of tourists, they want to go and they want to see the ocean. They want to see animals and things like that that are pretty cool. But then what happens is that that causes so much destruction from development that you don't get. And eventually, they'll just be like, oh, well, we're just not going to go back there, because we used to see turtles, but now we
can't see turtles. Or we used to see fish, now we don't see as many fish. Well, it's like, you can't have it both ways. You've got to balance it a little bit. There's a reason why they come by, right? Yeah. Exactly. So here, you're working the Canary Islands, which is kind of like a full circle moment, because you built the road that goes out there, the port. Now you have a conservation No, actually we are starting. It's a four-year project and it's not just the building itself. It's such
a big collaboration with African countries. We are collaborating with Portugal, authorities, Madeira. The project, the Marine Conservation Center as a building is the smallest thing of the project. It's just so much action that we are going to do around. We are going to visit all of the schools in Tenerife. It's
just a lot of actions that are going to come up. I went to one of our partners is in Senegal so I went to Dakar like a month ago and it blew my mind man like that's what I mean like when I when I think about Africa and the problems in Africa that's probably where marine conservation should start focusing now because nobody want to go there because it's hard to see what you see there
It's really cool. I mean, I'm looking at on your site and I see all the different places you work, different countries, different places on earth, different cultures. You talk about going to places and wanting to work within certain places and doing some pretty amazing projects there. But projects that require probably permits and making sure you know
the regulations and the laws in each of those places. obviously, you know, looking at at the site, you have people in in certain places, like you have a team in Costa Rica, you have a team in Spain, and you probably have people all around in
the different areas that you that you have. How do you adapt all the different countries, the cultures, the laws and everything to get the projects to a point where you're like, okay, this especially when it comes to engineering, like, A lot of times it requires permitting, building an actual building, it requires a lot of permits and stuff. How do you adapt to I would say that Spain and Costa Rica are places where I feel comfortable with the culture, with the problems.
I know how to handle it. But for instance, now that we are starting a project in Fiji, for me, it was very obvious. There is no way I have capacity with my organization to do anything here. So we partnered with the local people. And they are the ones who know how to do the things. So we are just providing capacity building. And probably, this will be more like the future of where Innocena will
go. We'll be more focused on like finding the right communities that can really be supported to do what we want to do to support the ocean. Yeah. But I think, as you said, as an engineer, I have the capacity to really map the situations. And you mentioned about the permits. The permits are a pain in the ass, man. They're always. It's always. I suffered the most with all of this. But But also it's about building trust and
when people know you, it's much easier to get. So it's just a process. Everything I mean, there's a reason for all of it, right? And you have to abide by it. But it's a lot to learn. I even know I used to work in private consulting and even the laws here in Canada, I was like, oh, I have to learn this new one. Oh, I have to learn this new regulation. Oh, there's a change in this one. I didn't know. And it's
always changing. And it's always so I can just imagine a number of different countries that you You can only learn what you can learn. I think this last 2024 is the year that my brain has a limit and I was like, okay, I'm touching the limit of my brain. But also the technology, I think, is bringing us interesting tools with all of this famous AI. It's kind of an opportunity to really have an
extra support to increase the impact. But I think, I hope this goes into the good side because also you can increase the bad impact. So it's like how we focus the AI into 100% and I think there's a lot of room for AI and oceans when we're talking a lot more people are getting into it even on the conservation side and Learning how to use I know I use it in my workflow all the time and it's it's helped so much save time and so much Yeah, it's
it's so great. Now. I mentioned I was I was on your I'm on your site and I'm looking at your team and it's quite big. You have a global team, you have a Costa Rican team, you have a Spanish team, you have board members, you have collaborators, you have ambassadors. It's quite cool to see. How have you built such a team? First of all, how did you start growing the team? Like, what were you really focusing on? That'll be I'm glad you asked this because I remember this moment that I
was going to Thailand, no experience in marine conservation. I was only one month on holiday, so I didn't know anything. But I've been always good at making people excited. I've been always good at making teams. That's kind of my biggest, probably my biggest capacity. And I remember telling to my mom that my mom has been very important in all this process. She has been my biggest supporter and my best friend. And I remember telling her, I have the
feeling that a lot of people are going to follow this. I don't know why, but I have the feeling and men. That was literally what happened. I remember living in Thailand and I have already like five, no, maybe seven people that were coming to Costa Rica to help me. It was just a movement. So I created this wave. Do you remember in the film Forrest Gump that he's running and then suddenly everyone That's awesome. That's awesome. Now, when you hire someone, what do you look for in
that person? Obviously, there's a specific skill set for each position, but from a personality standpoint, what do you look for? Because it seems like, especially in an organization like this, although you have a fairly large team, everybody does a little bit of everything at some point. What do you look for For me, when this has been like a big process,
we try different ways to do this. But what I learned is that the most important thing in this field, and I'm speaking about marine conservation organizations, and maybe this applies to startups, because startups could be also a similar environment. Yeah, for sure. flexibility, people who are flexible, people who are able to change their mind and if there is a change in the plan they will adapt and they will continue in
the other way like efficiently. I think that's the biggest and of course people who just love the ocean and are passionate. Those are the two main requirements. I don't care then if he's a marine biologist or if he's a lawyer or if he's nothing. He didn't go to university, but he's very good at doing surveys, whatever. It's just about the passion and it's about the flexibility. Those are the two. I would say maybe this is obvious, but maybe it's not as obvious in the world we live. It's
somebody with the values. The values are so important. Like, I want to build this organization. from the foundations of Innocent Art with strong values. So we want people with big moral and people with values. And sadly, in the world we live, we even have presidents that don't have values. And it's not that obvious, this attribute. Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely. I think You
have to have that passion. You have to have that ethics. You have to ask the question, even if we do this and we can make, whether it be money or make a lot of press, is this really worth it? Is this really going to help the overall ocean when we come Yeah, well, you mentioned ethics, and we are not religious people. This is not about going to the church. No, no, no, no. Our church, our cathedral is the ocean, and we go there. That's
the place where I pray. I remember having a podcast with the religion podcast of Spain that I said yes, and they were like, okay, I don't care about religion, but let's do it. And I told them, my cathedral is That's not a bad life. That's not a bad life at all to have that. That's phenomenal. Is there anything you want, like as we kind of end this interview, is there anything you want people to know about InuOceana that they may
not have known already? We covered a lot of subjects and a lot of topics and love to have you back on to discuss more in depth and certain of the projects, but what would you like them to know about InuOceana I just, maybe one thing that is important is that here in Costa Rica and in Spain, we have a team of amazing people that they can come and visit. For instance, here in Costa Rica, we have a big building. We even have place for people to stay. And we are constantly looking for
collaborators. So for instance, like three days ago, there was this woman that sent me a message. Hey, I saw in Oceana and I'm a photographer. There is something I can do for you guys. And she's just, I'm going to pick her up in the next village, like in a few hours. So she's staying here with us and she's coming to the ocean. Maybe my message is like, go to our website, have a look at where we are, and if you are around, and you love the ocean, and you are flexible, and you have the ethics, go
I love it. I think that is absolutely fantastic. Carlos, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, letting us know, and thank you for what you've done. I think you've helped out And you're going to continue to help out a number of different coastal communities, local communities, the ocean in general. And it's people like you that we need more of and people like people on your team and stuff. I think that's really fantastic. And I love You know, it's a little bit of innovation for the ocean.
I love that. And the name is fantastic. The organization looks phenomenal and the work you're doing is awesome. So thank you so much. And again, I'd love to invite you back on to talk more about specific projects Whenever, Andrew, whenever you want. Thank you for inviting me this time. It Absolutely. Looking forward to it. Thank you so much. Thank you, Carlos, for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. That was awesome. Let's just be honest. That was phenomenal. I
feel so hyped up right now. You know, I feel like I want to do more. That's what happens when you start to talk to people who are so passionate about the ocean and build teams that are passionate about the ocean. It just it becomes infectious in a good way. Right. It becomes just it just transfers from individual to individual. And this is what we need. We need people to be inspired to take action. And Carlos and Inociana does that. And I'm super proud. that I had him on
the podcast. I'm very, very thankful for Roxanne, one of his colleagues to reach out and suggest that Carlos comes on because it's not gonna be the last time you hear from him or any of his staff. We're gonna have him on and we're gonna talk more about specific projects that they're going in. We're gonna dive deep into those projects. There are people who are doing unbelievable things in and around the ocean. And I feel like this is a podcast where you can find out where
those people are and what they're doing. And I'm gonna have more people on in 2025. to be able to discuss those types of things. And I think it's really important that you subscribe, and you hit the like button, and the notification button on YouTube, and on Spotify, and on Apple Podcasts, and you watch or listen, however you consume this show, you can do that. Super simple. The technology is there for you. All you have to do is just enjoy the episodes, continue
to listen and share with a friend. And if you want to get ahold of me and ask me questions, or you are working on a project that has to do with the ocean and conserving the ocean, and you're really excited about it, hit me up on Instagram, DM me at how to protect the ocean. That's at how to protect the ocean. And until next time, I want to thank Carlos for being on the podcast. I want to thank you for listening. to this podcast or watching this podcast, wherever
you're doing it from. All the links are in the description below or in the show notes. And I want to thank you so much for joining me on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean podcast. I'm your host, Andrew Lewin. Have a great day. We'll talk to