Use It Up, Wear It Out, Make It Do, or Do Without with Katy Wolk-Stanley #643

of those products is up to snuff. I'm thinking of consumer reports, the countless reporting and tests that they perform on basically any item out there that you can buy. But you likely haven't heard of a non consumer advocate before, and that is who we're talking with today, our friend Katie Woke Stanley. Katie is the non consumer advocate. Her site is the Consumer Advocate dot com, and she helps people to learn to live on less and to do

so in a way that lessens their environmental impact. She is an uber frugal light who hardly ever buys anything new, and she uses that superpower to help others to live on as little income as possible. So we're gonna be talking about all these different tactics today that anyone out there can do. You know, whether you choose to. That's up to you. But we are excited for our conversation today. Katie. Thank you for joining us on the podcast. Thank you

so much, Joel and Matt for having me. All Right, Katie, I'm really curious to hear your answer to the question that we ask everybody when they come on the show, because you are you approach buying things differently than pretty much any guess we've had on before. So Matt and I we splurge on craft beer and even while we're saving the investing for the future, is there something you splurge on in the here and now? I don't even

know well what I splurge on here and now. It changes like through the years as I've gone through different points in life. At the moment, what I love displourage on is my adult kids. Although at twenty four and twenty seven, they have gone into college, they've graduated, they have flown the coop, they work full time. I know that money is tight for them, and so I like to be able to take them out to eat. I like to slip them a little money here and there.

They don't ask for money and so they really appreciate it. And it's it's a treat. My parents certainly, you know, did a little bit of that when I was young and just getting started in my adult life, and I'm happy and privileged to be able to do it for them. Well, love it. I guess that never goes away because there's you know, Jill having three me having four kids. There's obviously a certain amount of that that we do now while still trying to find that balance of making sure

that they understand them money. It doesn't just grow on trees. But maybe after you teach them those lessons, maybe you feel a little more freedom to slip them some bills instead of chocolates. For Valentine's Day, I gave me each one hundred bucks. I mean, that's come on, that's what That's what we need. We don't need more sugar in our diets, right calls out that inflammation or whatever it is of anyway, Katie, your slogan, or like the Moniker that your site is, goes by is use it up,

wear it out, make it do or do without. And we'll kind of cover each of these, we'll cover the spectrum of how these kind of play out in your life. But can you first tell us why that has become your motto. Where did you come across that? And why is it? You know that resonates with you? It is a term that I certainly did not make up myself. You'll find it used during World War Two. That was like an effort to get people to kind of be more thoughtful with howard they were consuming goods that needed

to be used for the war effort. But apparently it goes back farther than that. I've had different people say it was like, oh, that's an old Yankee term, or that's a New England term. So I don't I've never really been able to find out, you know, where precisely it came up. But whenever I've come across that, even long before I was blogging, it just really resonated with me, and I was like, that is great. It's so like concise,

and yet it's it's wide and meaningful. Yeah, it feels so kind of like foreign to the way so many people live life today though. So it is interesting that we were talking before we started recording about how about rabid fan bases, And I think the people who follow you, they are kind of rabbid in that way, like because and I think part of it is because this slogan is so antithetical to kind of so much of the

way our modern society functions. Yes, especially when it's just so easy to um, you don't have to go on your computer to buy stuff. You know, you've got that Amazon app and you just like, you know, swiped to buy. It's so easy and frankly so cheap. But I mean, yeah, this thing is how is this seven dollars? And it includes shipping when you know the shipping costs more than

that if we were to ship it ourselves. People want a different perspective, and I think that is why people, as you said, a rabbit, I would just say more loyal yeah to me at I don't know, I see them foaming at the mouth all the time. Following I am curious though, because yeah, you say, use it up,

wear it out, make it do or do without. And so what makes your list of things that you will purchase brand new or there are is there anything or like or absolutely there are absolutely things that I do buy new and I start and by the way, I started the buy nothing new practice myself even before I started blogging, So that was I think, like in two thousand and six, two thousand and seven I am not out there like looking for a used toothbrush, so I

would that's good to know. I would categorize that or like a personal care item. Okay, something that is like touching my body in that way. I don't mean like clothes, but floss, tooth fresh undergarments. I think, you know, although I have bought used songs before because you can just

wash them and sometimes they look amazing. Well, and your feet are so peripheral, I mean you know, though, like they're basically the closer you get to the core of your body, I too would also want to like the further it gets away from my face or my mouth, I think I would be more comfortable with going a little more used. We bought a brand new mattress at

this point, like two years ago. And although I have gotten a used mattress before, and I got it from somebody that I knew, that was just not something I wanted to use. There's just two. Once you start thinking of bed bugs, you can't stop thinking about, right, Well, that might be one area where I've got you beat, Katie, because we my wife and I slept Actually, no, shoot, we still have this mattress. Our daughter is now sleeping on it. But we got to use mattress for free

from a neighbor. But we knew them. They're neighbors of a friend of ours, so they knew them, and so implicitly, I guess we trusted them. But I'm telling you it's a good mattress. Yeah, and it's like anything we regretted. Sometimes getting stuff up the side of the road can be a little daunting. I had a friend who brought home a chair that looked nice, but then it had bedbugs, and that caused a whole mess. So you want to avoid that, just burn the whole apartment down. I guess, right,

And that's the case. I do a lot of curbside shopping and a tremendous amount of thrifting for things that I want and need, And if it's even slightly something that could have bedbugs, I examine it in the store, and then I also leave it on my porch so I can't give it a better examination. I've never had get the headline something that I would call a cautionary

tale from that though, got it okay? Well, so we're kind of talking about I don't know, just buying stuff new, Katie, Like, do you have any thoughts on buying things that are more well made, like things that are higher quality that come with maybe better warranties. Is that important to you, you know, when when you're at least occasionally buying something that that hasn't previously been used. Yes, although mostly I

really don't buy that much stuff. And I understand what you're getting at um to you buying like a higher quality item from a responsible company exactly, warranty that will stand behind their product is always like the ideal. My goal is to then just get it used when the person who initially bought it gets bored with it. I like that well. And one of the things that you've you've written about, you've talked about too, is that you prioritize lower tech solutions because those things need to be

replaced less frequently. And I think, like you've mentioned tea kettles, and it's funny because we went to like an electric tea kettle, but we've had like they didn't last very long, and so I'm like, do I need to go back to just this basic like just kettle on the on the stove things. That's I mean, that's kind of your approach, right. Yes, I do have a kettle on the stove, and it is such an although it's not that old, it is

probably I know, fifteen years old at this point. It's exactly the one that you can see on the show Madmen, so it's classical one. But yeah, I don't want things that I'm going to have to replace. I did just buy a new refrigerator this fall, now that I think of it, and I did get one that had like zero bells and whistles. The less that's going on with the stuff that you own, the less that can go

wrong with it. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want your fridge connected to the internet with like a tablet on it and all this other kind of stuff. You're right, I mean I think that that is like there's more stuff to replace, and it's the same kind of with modern cars often these days too. And if it's simpler, it's something that you could conceivably repair yourself with a good YouTube video. Yeah, yep, Okay, So I think you're right

on that. And I guess like a lot of people opt to replace items that I could easily be fixed. But you have described yourself as a serial repairer. And I remember when we've worked together, Katie back in the day, and I learned about this thing called sue grew from you, which is like multiple clay and glue which helps repair

all sorts of things. I think you actually sent me some in the mail, and I love I love that like that you yeah, And I love that You're just kind of all about like fixing stuff whenever you can, So, like, do you have any best DIY tips for fixing things that break from time to time in your life? I've just said it, but YouTube, there is very rarely something that you're trying to figure out how to do that you can't find on YouTube that somebody else has done

themselves and put together a video about it. You don't need to invent the wheel. My husband and I we both just you know, if something is wrong, we want to know how can we fix this? How can and in that way we're able to avoid making new purchases. As an example is I was at my son's rental house and I noticed that they had a busted up dining room chair in the corner of the room, and I asked his roommate, Hey, do you want me to fix this? And he was like, what, I'm like, that

looks reparable. Would you want me to fix this, and he was like, uh, okay, I guess ladies, just you know his roommate's mom. So brought it home and it just was a matter of gluing and clamping in a couple of different stages. And my son took it back

last night. And it is not a beautiful chair to be handed down to your ancestors, but you know what, it's now a functional piece and it literally saves it from the landfill, and yeah, makes it so that they can have like a you know, proper number of people at the dining room table if that ever worked, which is honestly, that's that's the most important thing, right, the ability for folks to gather around that table. I mean well with furniture in particular, when you have older furniture

that isn't just particle board. It's made from real wood. You can glue it right, like blood glue, like joints or whatever where you've used glue. I've learned from personal experience. It's all. I mean, I think it's stronger than other parts of that year. Like it's not going to break

there again if you have a good bond. But how do you know, like when something is beyond repairing, because it's difficult to know just like is this something that I can tackle myself, or like, how do you know it's when it truly is time to just toss it out and replace it completely. Well, there isn't necessarily like a single single answer to that, But I'm going to go back to the example the refrigerator that my husband and I just got from Costco. You'll like that Joel

up their products. So that was good. And this fridge that we had that we've had since nineteen ninety eight, so I remember my son was an infant. It was not like a great quality item, and so we've done a lot of little repairs and my husband finally after countless repairs through the years, was like, you know what, I can't figure this out. I think it's the compressor.

So we went out. We got a bare bones one, which by the one got lightly scratched during the delivery process, and Pascoe gave us like one hundred and fifty two hundred bucks back. Sweet. Yeah, And the call I wasn't you know, I'm a Karen, talk to your manager lady. They offered it. Oh nice, Okay, Well that's the kind of company they are. You know, they do stuff like that, which is they treat their employees well and they pay a living wage. So that's who I want to when

I am buying new stuff. I look for companies like that to give my money to. Okay, who you buy from is really important, but so I mean, it sounds like for y'all with a fridge, it kind of came down to the maybe the total cost of the of the repair perhaps was going to total the item. And so maybe that's a decent rule of thumb for folks to kind of keep in mind. If you're going to be sinking more money into this repair and even still

be subpar, then maybe it's time. It's kind of like if you have a car that's old car that's worth thirty five hundred bucks and you've got it, it's like transmission replacement time, you're like, Okay, it probably doesn't make sense to repair this thing anymore. It's time to yeah, parcel this from out for parts. Yeah, we're driving a very old car right now, and you know we just keeping it well and yeah, and it makes sense, right.

I was I think we talked about on the show. Recently, I spent two hundred and eighty eight dollars to replace. I want to say it was a Solennoid or something like that, and so I had to get it replaced just to pass the emissions test or they won't let me drive in the state of Georgia. Three hundred bucks. Yeah, totally. I was like saying, I was like really excited to spend the money on that because it prevents me from

having a car payment. And yeah, and I think you're right, Like, the more we think about what we're using and how much we're consuming on the front end, it kind of helps us to create less waste and to create less consumption and to spend less money. I'm curious too, because we're getting into spring right now and a lot of people are probably starting to think about spring cleaning. I know we are at our house. We're starting to think

about decluttering a little bit more. And one of the things that you mentioned on your blog is that we can often get a tax break for donating these items to goodwill. But it's something that most people don't do properly, and the deductions can actually be significant. They can add up over time depending on what you're giving away, right, Can you talk about that? Yes, when I donate to

Goodwill and they give you the little receipt. I actually in that moment, like I drive around the corner and park the car, I write two pairs men's pants, you know, one youth winter coat. Because when the time comes to do your taxes, whether you're doing like a turbo tax or maybe one of the like free versions, which I recommend that you can put all of that in. You can't just say I donated thirty five dollars of stuff.

You can get so much more. They'll give you like a ten dollars credit for a single pair of men's pants. That's not a I don't specifically no right now, but it can be significant. My husband and I do our taxes ourselves, and we do them together, and he always hands the computer over and he's like, all right, put in the goodwill stuff, and it'll make difference of like

hundreds of dollars of how much we're getting back. I will say, I'm worried that Dale's gonna wake up tomorrow with no pants because you're gonna go donate them all just for the tax rite offs? Who told you? Sorry? Dale? Okay, So practically speaking, so do you immediately enter those into whatever software or app you're using, or do you just kind of keep a note on your phone. They hand you a paper slip and then it has lines for what you donated and I write it on those lines.

It's very and then you just keep just hang onto the paper until the until come tax season. I love it. I think that's really important, Yeah, because otherwise if you don't, if you don't do it like right then and there, I think there's a good chance you'll either forget yeah, or you might even just say forget about it. You know, you may not even take the time. Yeah, yeah, So yeah, getting that tax break, that is certainly one thing you can do with some of the additional items that you

have on hand. But you can also take some of those things and sell them. We actually are going to talk a good bit about how you can make some additional income with some of your excess goods. We'll get to that, plus plenty more right after this are we are back from the break, We're still talking about using things up, wearing them out, making it do, doing without, and just kind of like buying less and being some

harder with our consumption habits. We're talking with Katie walk Stanley here on the show today, and Katie, you wrote an article about how to practice extreme frugality, So I am curious. Matt and I we give the distinction between things being frugal and cheap on the show, we have a recurring segment sometimes the world debate the merits of a decision and say was that frugal or cheap? But you kind of say there's a third way. I don't know. I'm curious to here your your belief and how you

think about being frugal or being cheap. I feel like the cheap versus frugal debate is like a false dichotomy. It's not a either one or the other black or white issue. I feel like, do you like a good then diagram? I do. I feel like you've got cheap one circle, you've got frugal the other, and then they meet in the center and you've gotten on consumerism there. Okay, so right in the middle like that, that's that's where

we like to live. Katie. Yeah, I am a how Too money listener, and I have heard you guys talk about something being cheaper for who goal, and I'm I want in on the conversation. I'm like, no, there's a third choice. But I feel that like trying to think of what, like a good example would be like buying a low quality item versus buying a very expensive but higher quality item. You're like, oh, what do I do? Do I spend a thousand on this? Or do I

spend four hundred on that? And I feel like there's that third choice, which is by the expensive, higher quality item but find it used. Yeah, Or like I am here in Portland, Oregon, we have like amazing restaurants and a lot of really inexpensive options to food carts and such. We have an amazing like Mexican food cart just a couple of blocks away from the house, and I'll go

there and it is cheap. But what I do is I will choose like the cheap option, but then I end up tipping really well, Okay, And like, for that same amount of money, I could have gone to like a very dull middle road restaurant, but instead I get to go and get something amazing that I make sure that I'm tipping well. Even though in Oregon nobody is allowed to get less than minimum wage, so even your waiters are getting the minimum wage. Oh that's cool, They're

definitely getting taken care of it. I think so much of it does come down to the heart of why you do something right, and so if you are because I think so much of cheap being cheap is it's like an attitude, and think what one person's cheap can be somebody else's frugal. And it kind of depends on how you approach it. But do you have any any other examples of some ways that maybe folks have either made fun of you or that in your own opinion, that I would be considered what are the worst things?

But just like I guess more extreme examples of frugality. Obviously you're you're looking at things on the side of the road. I love that. But yeah, I'm curious if you have any other examples. Um I I love a good roadside find. We're not talking road kill for dinner or anything like that, right, probably? Not? Okay? Not? No. I can make that five dollar Costco chicken stretch for

many meals. I don't need to be going for possum. No. Um I some I recently found a Filson brand like nit wool knit cap like in the streets, soggy embedded with like oil and leaves and stuff. It was not recently dropped so I brought it home, I washed it, I sweat or shaved it. I put it up on eBay and I sold it for forty bucks. So I mean there's stuff. But back to cheap. I actually want to defend cheap. I know the word cheap and the

idea of cheap gets a very bad rap. But what can happen a lot of times is that people do not want to be perceived is cheap with family, with friends, and what they'll do is they will spend beyond their means in order to not be viewed as being cheap. And in that way, I think demonizing the word can do disservice to people. I think that's a good point.

I think people feel uncomfortable, they don't want to be classified in that way, and so you're you're right, they probably end up spending in ways they get them in trouble when they should probably be just a little more comfortable wearing that moniker and not feeling as self conscious

about it. Admitting you're on a limited budget, finding ways to do what you want and do so enjoyably on like no money or next to no money is a creative challenge, and I find that enjoyable and I try and help other people find that enjoyable and there is no shame in that. And people you know, embarrassed by the car they drive, even if they have a perfectly functional car, ye and getting something they can afford because they don't want to look cheap. Yeah, I know you're

spot on, and I think we should be less. I don't know. It just makes me think about I've driven kind of quote unquote beaters for kind of most of my whole whole life, even into adulthood. Our only cars a two thousand and six Hondo Odyssey and it's powder blue.

It's not terribly attractive, and I know, you know, some people might look and they might judge or something, But I guess part of it is just kind of a comfort level in your own skin and with the choices that you're making, and saying like, that's just not something we prioritize, even though a lot of other people do.

But I think for some people, you're right, it's not that they prioritize it, but it's just that they feel compelled to follow the crowd and to do kind of what other people are doing, even if it puts them

in like a precarious financial position. Yeah, yeah, Katie Joel said, being comfortable in your own skin, So essentially kind of comes down, I think to the individual, like, do you have any advice or any tips to help people to be comfortable with the decisions that they're making, sometimes out of necessity or sometimes they're making these decisions out of just a desire to be frugal, a desire to save

for other financial goals that they might have. But I don't know, have you ever talked with folks who find themselves in a situation where they really feel uncomfortable being in that position? Do you have any advice for them? That's a hard one because it is so individual. I mean, it kind of boils down to contemptedness. Can you be you know, if you are a content person with who you are and the belongings that you have and the person your sense of self that you present out into

the world, Madison Avenue can't touch you. Yeah. You being solid with yourself means that you are not as like open to thinking that this purchase is going to make your life better. And granted, there are purchases that can make your life better, but it shouldn't be motivated by feeling bad about yourself. Yeah, and that's a hard one, and I don't know if that really does answer your question. I used to work until a few years ago as

a labored delivery nurse. I worked for twenty four years at a high risk unit, and so I had many, many, many co workers, all of them women. All the nurses were women there, and we had, you know, countless in depth conversations. You really get to know one another. And so many women that I was that I worked with, they were working full time, they had little kids, they were often or usually married to someone who had a

good income, and they're still living paycheck to paycheck. And it was Disneyland every year, it was new cars, it was it was keeping up with the Joneses. And I wasn't there to judge, and I wasn't there telling people what they're doing wrong. Nobody likes that person. Nobody wants unsolicited advice in this world. But I certainly saw that. I saw people comforting their unhappiness or their stress with purchases.

And it's hard to see. And it doesn't mean you're like a bad person if you do that, by any means. We've all been there where you need to cheer yourself up. Yeah, but there's room times it can have really big picture consequences that you're not like figuring out what your big picture goals are. Yeah, for sure. All right. I want to talk about selling things because we talked about donating

things just before the break. But you say that a lot of folks who like, they throw things out that they could turn into cash, and so like, I don't know, And it feels like you're hunting for use things all the time at the thrift store on the side of the road, and then you're turning around and you're selling those items that one man's trash is another man's treasure. That's saying I feel like you kind of personify that.

So talk to me about how you're finding stuff, how you're thinking about kind of resale when it comes to things that you're getting rid of or things that you're finding to just turn a profit on. Yes, I do thrifting. I'm not doing it all the time, just four days a week, that's all. I swear. I fell you on Instagram. I see you at your goodwill all the time. And then you're buying stuff and you're selling it on eBay and you're making a lot of money. True, I am

doing that. Just last week, I got a couple of bar stools and they just kind of stood out as quality items when I saw them, and I give them a little shake tests to make sure they're a sturdy i'd bottom for and I sold the pair for one seventy five and I did that Facebook marketplace. There's not a single answer to that. One thing that I've enjoyed doing is there are a couple of like wealthy neighborhoods here in Portland and they have like a garage sale day and what I'll do is I'll drive my two

thousand and five Honda any Van. Make me feel bad. You're competitive now at the end of the day, where everybody just like puts their stuff like at the curb with like a free sign. And I have found boxes of books that I can take two Powells, which is a bookstore here in Portland, and they'll give you money for them. I've found like Yakima rack systems that I'll take to a store in town that buys used bike racks.

I mean, there's just many ways to do that. It's interesting though, because you don't want to be a hoarder, and I'm certainly not I don't know if you can hear the echo in this room. I'm not I'm not that by any means, but I am very deliberate with the things that I do bring home. I'll check the eBay app to see completed listings to see if something is selling well. Ideally, if I am selling stuff, I

want to make it least thirty usually fifty bucks on it. Okay, I'm not trying to make ten dollars here and there. That's just kind of like finicky work. Although you know I love ten dollars. I've never turned that down. But for my efforts and for the stuff that I am

bringing into my home, I try to do that. So it sounds like it sounds like what you're saying is you value your time and at some point you're not going to go through Like, so, how do you think about that too when it comes to like your hourly rate, or how you think about how much time and effort you put into flipping something in order to turn a profit. I will clean something up, but I don't want to

be repairing the stuff that I am selling. Gotcha, that's a slippery slope to like setting it aside, and then you just kind of never do it. I try to make fifty bucks if I'm selling something, and then that way it's just kind of worth my time, even though I am retired. I guess regardless if you're retired or not, for you, you've got a standard, you've got a bar that you're not willing to go below. But I think that's the biggest problem is that folks are saying that

they don't have the time. I think there's a lot of folks who might be hearing you talk and they're saying this is I can totally get behind this. I don't have the time to do all of this. What advice do you have for those folks who like the mission, they like the idea of reusing things, but they're saying they don't have the time. What are your thoughts there? Oh? I feel for those people because I have been there, as you know, mom of little kids, working full time

nights as a nurse. You know, time was not something that I enjoyed a plethora of. I guess it's about being strategic with what is important. Buying less stuff is a way that you can save money. It's very easy when you have kids. You just love them to pieces

and you want to get them absolutely everything. But I mean, studies have shown that having less stuff actually helps your kids focus more, helps them kind of appreciate the things that they do have, and to do more kind of focused play than a room that is like filled with like everything that Toys, r Us throughout or whoever Amazon. I guess at this point, well, we all have seen our kids end up playing with the boxes or the

bots and pains or stuff like that too. That happens, and you're just like, what happened to the one hundred dollars Barbie Dreamhouse that we got you? Why don't you playing with that like that? That that's kind of a common refraine here from parents too. Yeah, I mean it's it's being a parent is just the hardest thing, especially now in the digital age, where you know that that Barbie Dreamhouse is competing with a screen. You know, I was luckier that my kids are older, I didn't really

have that issue. But I mean, when you don't have the time, you just choose what is important to you, and if that is saving money, or if that is just having like a simpler life or having like less clutter in your home, just you know, maybe find like minded people My Facebook group for the Non Consumer Advocate has more than eighty thousand people in it, and if you need inspiration or if you need a question answered,

it is a really good place to come. Yeah, do you feel like there's overlap between the minimalism movement and the non consumer movement? Are those similar or are those like? Yeah, just I guess I'm curious how much, Like if we're talking vinn diagrams, like we're discussing earlier, how much how much overlap is there between those two? There is absolutely overlap. Having too much stuff, I mean everything you have in your home, unless you know your garbage picking, is stuff

that you paid for. It is money that you spent. And a lot of times people hold onto that stuff because there's that sunk cost where they're like, well, I paid good money for that. Yes I don't like it, but you know I'm going to hold onto it because you don't want to admit that, you know, the mistake that you made. But having less stuff, having a less cluttered home is something that a lot of people want. It's easier to have friends over, to have house guests.

Having a cluttered home or feeling like you do not have like a home that you can welcome people into is a very isolating thing for a lot of people. With the Internet and social media, we see a curated vision of how other people are living, and it makes people feel bad about their own messy lives. Yeah, and essentially what you're getting at is like the sunk cost fallacy, the desire for folks to not want to admit that

they're wrong. Essentially, and when presented with new data, with new facts, sometimes we have to be like, oh, I'm going to change my mind. Oh I don't actually need this thing in my life, and if that means I have to take a loss in order to get rid of it. Sometimes we have to let go over egos, which I think that might be what you're speaking to a little bit here. It is emotionally painful to let go.

It is, it is, But the more you do it, the more you acclimate yourself to like, yeah, I felt bad about getting rid of those boots that you know, we're always so uncomfortable. You can get rid of them and you do survive that process. Yeah, that's true. All right, So I want to ask you to something super practical. Matt and I we just did a whole episode about butchering your grocery bill and you I've like followed your

grocery buying routine. You call it disjointed, but because you drive to a bunch of different places to get the best price on each item. So I am curious to know. I'm sure it's a little different than what my grocery routine looks like. Well, what's the Katie Woke Stanley approach to buying food without spending too much money? I do buy different grocery items from different places. And that sounds like just if you just look at that for face value, that it would be a lot of time and a

pain in the tuchus. But in fact, it really isn't because I work it into like the routine of like what is already happening. I'm not spending like twelve hours a day going to different grocery stores. But like, we go through a lot of bananas here and Trader Joe's it must be a lost leader. They saw him for nineteen cents a piece, which means you can choose the big ones. Yeah, do that on my way to the store. That's a grocery liquidator here in Portland, Oregon. And I

call it the dented vegetable store. But they always have like those great big packs of like organic mixed screens that are like six seven dollars. At least in the store they have them for two bucks nice sometimes one dollar they'll have so I'll go there. I can't get all of my stuff there, but I have walked in and ended up walking out with like a flat of strawberries for two dollars. But it's one of those things like you'd better be ready to make jam that day.

Ye get me two days out of these with you know, which just means you have to be ready to be resourceful with the things that you're buying. And I think that's great, And I think that is is because of our like on demand society, constantly connected to technology, It's it's harder to be a resourceful person. We have to kind of like build that up in ourselves because it just doesn't come naturally. So I love kind of you're you're pushing us in that kind of into that realm.

But we've got a couple more questions we're going to get to you with you, Katie. I specifically want to talk about the do without part of your moniker and like how you know when you should just do without, because that is something that we're not great at in our society. So we'll get some questions on that and more right after this. All right, we are still talking with Kennie will Stanley just about some of the different ways we can all implement some frugalness into our lives.

And Katie, you know you touched on this in the last section. We were kind of talking about finding that balance between time and money essentially, and for folks recommended. What you said is that for folks maybe who have less time, one of the things that we can do is to just generally speak, we can buy less, right, because that's something essentially that we can all remove when stuff you don't have to make as much money. Yeah, and nor does it take any time to not buy something.

You go out to flip something you know on eBay or like all that takes some time, It takes being resourceful, but actually not buying something that it's a it's the absence, it's the absence of time. A good example for that is I don't know if you know who amy decision is. She wrote the tight Wad Gazette, And that's like an

old school thing back in the archives here. Yeah. And she wrote in one of her books that she did a lot of interviews and a lot of she was filmed for, you know, a lot of TV segments, and they always wanted to see her actively doing something that would save her money. And she said the thing that she wanted to do was to the kids up in the car and drive past like McDonald's and just show that she wasn't going there. Yeah, but that doesn't make

like a gripping visual image here, I am. That's so true though, Yeah, I mean that, like, that's what you're talking about. That Like essentially that's the do without part of your motto. And I mean just generally speaking as a society, like self self deprivation. It's not something that we're that we're great at, but it is obviously one of yours. You know, that's not an easy message to sell, No, right,

it's not sexy. You can't market it. Like what advertiser is going to get behind you if you're going to say to what you should really be doing is just generally speaking, buy less stuff. But what I would love to hear from you, though, what are some purchases that folks maybe make occasionally or routinely either way, but that they're making that you think folks maybe should consider for going altogether. That that's not an easy answer. That's a

hard one because it's so individualized. Like for you too, spending money on craft beer is absolutely worth it to you, that brings you pleasure, their satisfaction in that. To me, I don't really like to drink, and so to me that would be an absolute waste of money. I'd sooner throw it like down the sync as I would to drink it. I know, blasphemy here, Yes, yes you would, you would donate it. This is the last time you'll be on the show, by the way, better what this work?

You know, that's a hard one. For some family, like doing international travel is a priority for them to expose themselves and their children to different cultures in the world, and for them, they're going to make sacrifices in their everyday life that make that possible. And for somebody else, perhaps who's more of a homebody, like doing the things that give them comfort in the home means they do not have that money to internationally travel, but they you know,

that's not what they want anyway. I really think that people think that living below your means it equates to deprivation, and that's absolutely not true. I mean it's hard to you know, look at the numbers. It's an unpaid it's like a painful thing to do. All right, this is the money we have coming in, This is the money that we have going out. What is you know, how

much do we have? It's looking at that, looking at the hard numbers and that look in the mirror to see like what money do you have and what is it that you value? Is it savings? Is it college funds for your kids? Is it travel? Is it helping family members who maybe need that help you know they're at a stage of life. Yeah, well no, I think that's that's so true, and I appreciate that that approach.

I mean, what I'm hearing is that you're not a hater, which I mean that's that's where we tend to fall. Because if it's something that's important to you, I think you can almost justify any expense out there, if your heart is in the right place, if it's something that you value a few and if yeah, exactly if you've planned for it. It It problem is mostly get on credit.

I haven't planned for it, and so we're just spending like everyone else around us, and we haven't done the deep work to really think about what does move the need on our lives so that we can really spend intentionally there and then start to curb spending in other areas that maybe just weren't. You're providing much bang for the buck, like even something as simple as going to get a haircut like every six or eight weeks or something like that. Think about how that kind of money

adds up. I'm guessing, Katie, you don't pay someone else to cut your hair, right? Um? Well, I used to, and I think I've heard that you do this also Joel the Supercuts training center. Yes, I used That's how I would get my hair cut, and I would like badger the kids to get their haircut that way as well. Free haircuts for trainees. And again you get the free

haircut and then you tip. Ye, and so yes, you're spending five dollars, but they're not used to getting a tip at all, and so they're always really happy to get that. Do you tip them before they start cutting your hair? That way they try a little extra is a good tip, but no. But the thing is that that my one, it seems to have gone dormant. I can't figure it out. But I did get a cupon

for like Great Clips for ten ninety nine. So I went in and I did that, and again, I you know, I tipped, well, I tipped not based on a ten ninety nine hair cutting. Yeah, and I also very infrequently get my hair cut. I let it get long and straggly, and they chatted off. Again. That's that's my current approach. Yes, so I've got my own hair since I was in

middle school, Katie, and since the pandemic started. I was one of those that was like, all right, I'm gonna do the long hair thing and we'll see how much longer it lasts. It's getting a little unruly, getting close to his touch. It's true, well on it, I almost can. It's that's getting getting problematic, Katie. You mentioned your kids right like you were trying to get them to also attend the Great Clips. But I know that you're essentially

you're an empty nester for now. Essentially they stopped by to look in the fridge, very free to hang out. But I mean, you know, and you've got your husband when y'all like, did it ever cause problems? I guess like your your frugal tendencies. Did it ever cause any family strife as you're trying to take the thermostat down, make it a little bit colder, or if you are just all the different ways that you're trying to save money, I'm curious when you sell everyone's pants, is that ruining

family relationships or anything? How did you avoid that conflict? I wouldn't say that it has ever caused strife, as that is you know, a strong word to use. I would say more that you know, no teenager ever wants to be told no. And so whether or not you are somebody who does traditional shopping where you're gonna take the kids to them all, you're gonna go to Target whatever, I mean, all kids here? No. And my kids were

used to me. They know me, and I was always saying like, you know, hey, we can go to Goodwill first and see if they have what you want. And you know, maybe they were rumpy times, but they knew that they would get a yes at Goodwill. And it doesn't take too many times of thinking like, oh, I'm not getting what I want and then you end up finding something that's so expensive if you had bought it new, and yet somehow you got it for five dollars that you know it turns things around. So do you feel

like your kids have kind of followed suit? Do they live a similar lifestyle to the way you kind of raise them how they come around? Yes. No, I am not here to force my ways on other people, even my own children, and I don't believe anything good comes from port forcing your point of view on other people. They both will go to Goodwill for stuff or you know, they'll ask me if I can check on the buy nothing group to see if somebody has a such and such, but they mostly just kind of don't buy a lot

of stuff. Okay, one does have a credit card in order to build her credit rating, but neither of them have any credit debt. We were able to pay for them to go to college just out of pocket through our extreme frugality, so we've set them up for a really good adult life. They're not starting with one hundred thousand dollars in debt, which I just feel so bad for people who do not have a choice about that, And they know that they're lucky because their friends are

not in that same situation. They're able to take jobs that maybe can build to like better jobs and in terms of career wise because they can live on seventeen dollars an hour. Well, I love I mean, I love your mission, Katie. I love you've been at in a long time now, through the Facebook group, your Instagram, through your blog, just really teaching people about how to just think about purchases and really life differently than kind of

our modern conception of it, which I really appreciate. It really fits with the vibe of what Matt and I are trying to do over here at how to Money. So how can our listeners find out more about you and what you're up to. Well, I blog at the Non Consumer Advocate dot com. For years, I blog seven days a week. I have doubt that back a bit, and I put up a fresh blog post every Monday and then sometimes the second one during the week. I am on Instagram as the non Consumer Advocate or maybe

non consumer you'd think. I know, we'll link to them in the show notes so everybody can find them quick. I have a Facebook group and that has the Non Consumer Advocate. Thank you so much for having me on, and I hopefully was able to get the message across that non consumerism isn't about being deprived. It's about saving money, it's about doing that in a way that looks at like the environmental impact of our purchases, and hopefully people

will respond to that. And I appreciate you having me on, Katie. Always glad to have you, great to chat. Thanks so much for coming on. We'll talk to you soon, all right, Thank you Joel Man. What a great conversation we had with especially about Okay, So first, this is my big takeaway, but I love that Katie wanted to provide her her two cents on the third option. Right, It's not just

being frugal or being cheap. There's a way that you can be cheap in most people's books, right, Like, according to most people, they're going to say that, man, you're you're taking you're taking the cheap option here. But to you, you're being frugal. To you, you're being the non consumer.

Then really, yeah, you're just opting out of the game that everyone else is playing, which I think is kind of Katie's main message to say, like it's not just frugal or cheap, it's like you can just check out of kind of the normal path that most people take through society, which is just to consume a lot more

than they need to. And she talked about that at the very end, how that can be for environmental reasons, but it can be for money saving reasons, and it can She's you know, she even talked about how she was able to basically set her kids up for a much better future because she took a different path too exactly, And I think what she said is also true that it oftentimes can be because of the pressures of other people, like you don't want to be perceived as being cheap,

and because of that, it's they're just a lot more consumption that's taken place. But what was your your big takeaway aside from that, Aside from the froo versus cheap conversation, what is your big takeaway from our conversation today with Katie? You know, so tough to pick one thing, but when she said that it all boils down to contentedness and that if you are content with what you have and

with who you are, Madison Avenue can't touch you. And I think oftentimes we are trying to fill a void with kind of through consumerism, and we realize, or typically actually don't realize that we're not making much of a dent, you know, in that void by buying things, and so we kind of continue to try and it just never works, right.

And so I think that's a big part of kind of what's going on, is that contentedness isn't terribly easy to come by, and a lot of people are looking to purchases to buy their happiness and it just it doesn't work. And so I think, you know, we could talk about all the strategies until we're blue in the face, but if you can't find ways to be happy with what you have and be happy with less, it's it's going to be really hard I think for Katie's message

to be applicable to you. Very true. Yeah, all right, so since you went with like a twenty thousand foot level particularly, i'll i'll dive into the granular. I'll maybe some more than nuts and bolts. And specifically, when she was talking about what she is willing to essentially flip and sell on eBay or Facebook marketplace, that first of all, she's just looking to make at least fifty bucks. Yeah, essentially, like she's not going to do something for just ten

dollars for her, that's not worth her time. But one of the other things she pointed out is that she is not going to take something on that she has to fix. I like that because I think that can also be a good rule of thumb for folks who are out there and they're thinking, oh, like, I'm pretty good at thrifting, like I can spot a good deal, or or maybe hey, i'm pretty good with a barkeeper's friend and I know how to shine this thing up.

And so I think, if this is maybe a tactic and approach that you're thinking about doing making some additional money by selling things on eBay or Facebook, don't look at the different things that need fixing, because I think that's when you might end up being and turning into a hoarder, right because kids, just like I'm not a hoarder. She moves things pretty quickly, saying, twenty six projects in your garage. You know it need to be more. That's

what you That's probably what you don't want to turn into. Yeah, And so I thought that was a good little nugget that she's not looking necessarily to fix things, but she will bring them in, washing them, get them cleaned up, and then quickly turn them around for a profit. Ye. But keep that in mind if if you're also looking

to make something after change on the side. I think it was last year that we did to Sell Your Stuff challenge and a lot of listeners decided they were going to try to sell fifty two things, one thing a week and see how much money that can make them.

And so it is one of those things where you could even look to pick up free things or buy additional things that you know you can turn for a profit and add those and trying to sell fifty two things this year in addition to you just kind of the things that you want to declutter or get rid of from your own home. But and then it's just that last thing keeping those tax receipts. Who knows how much that's going to save you on taxes when it comes comes tax time from the stuff you're donating when

you take it to goodwill. But Matt, let's get back to the beer that we had on this episode. This was Cloudscape IPA by Newpark Brewing or your thoughts on this one. Yeah, first, a big thank you to Matthew. Thank you for doating this one as well as the other New Park brewis that we've had here on the show.

I assume this is the single IPA version of we had a double It was it last week or a couple of weeks ago, but it was it double cloud or I think so yeah, so very similar, vibe, very similar, fantastic. Certainly drank more like a single I guess, not a double but a single IPA, but which just means like less robust, less intense, but still a little easier to drink, packing a lot of flavor drinks more like a hoppy,

pale ale, but fantastic it. I mean it had all of the qualities that you're looking forward to New England hazy IPA, juicy, so it had a fair amount of sugars going on, but not too sweet where it felt like it was just getting weighed down. And it had that nice kind of fresh crispness that you get from this hops. Yeah. I really enjoyed it. Yeah do you

like it? Yeah? Yeah, I like you said, crisp. It had like a crispness to it, which usually is a word or a description reserve for like pilzers and loggers and stuff like that. But this was like I had a kind of like a chrispypa, which I thought was a nice little combo. It was definitely hoppy, definitely juicy, but had that crispness to it at the end, which I thought kind of nice finish on that on this beer.

For sure, it was fantastic. Thanks, Matthew, appreciate it. Man and matt that's going to do it for this episode. We'll have links up to all of Katie's resources up in the show notes up on our website at how to money dot com. All right, buddy, So until next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.