Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking about why time is greater than money with Ben Miller. Actually, time it's easily our most precious resource, but it's not often that we take the time to figure out how it is that we're going to spend our minutes and our hours, which then inevitably
turn into weeks and years. And then if you completely fail to do this like that is when you end up as the proverbial careerist, right where you're looking back at the wasted decades wishing that you would have done something differently. And luckily, our guest today, Ben Miller, he actually did shake things up. He traded a position on Wall Street with golden sacks for a fulfilling.
Life out there in Colorado.
He chose meaning over money, and he's actually on a quest to help others to discover what a fulfilling life is for them with the software that he's developed, Chronify. So we're gonna talk about that, and you know, I'm excited for what I think will be a wide ranging conversation all about personal finances, but specifically with time at the center of pretty much everything that we talk about today. So, Ben Miller, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
Thanks a lot for having me. I'm excited to be.
Here, Ben, We're excited for this combo and Matt and I we you know, you know, we like craft beer and everyone knows that at this point, no secret. But we spend I think the current beer is just one single can of beer and it costs like seven dollars and fifty cents, which a lot of people would say, that's that's crazy. I need a twelve is at the accurate price tag right there? I think so? Yeah, it liters has seven dollars and twenty nine cents. It's not cheap.
That's ridiculous, right, So we spend too much, some would say on craft beer, but we're also being intentional. We're saving investing for the future while we spend exordinantly on something that we care about. I'm curious, what's that for you? What's your craft beer equivalent?
Hmm? My craft beer equivalent, I'd say, would definitely have to be strategy board games. So I'm outing myself is a huge door here. But those sometimes can go for like a one hundred bucks a pop, but well worth it. Hours of family fun.
Okay, which game?
Because I think when I share this love, Yes, we also are nerdy, our lovers of nerdy board games. But when we go on our beach vacation every night, every night we're there, we're playing a nerdy board game game. Carcassone Sellers of Catan, We're playing Puerto Rico acchoir a choir.
So what game you guys know, the whole gamut? Then this is normally people's eyes glaze over when.
Yeah, yeah, they're like, wait, are you talking about Monopoly?
Like yeah, no, no, we're not like leave that for the kids like in the nineties risks for children.
We're talking about the big ones.
Are you talking about Clue?
No? Okay, so what game are you dropping one hundred one hundred plus dollars on especially level?
Yeah, it's like kickst harder stuff. So all these like you know, big kind of space opera sort of games or whatever, and so it'll be you know, sometimes one or two hundred bucks and then you got to wait a couple of years for them to actually make it. But that's you know, my my wife and I are idea of a great Saturday night is like sitting down over the board game table and trying to prove to each other who's smarter.
So that's kind of who is the most cutthroat.
She lets you win sometimes, right, Yeah.
Once, It's funny you mentioned Carcassone, Like we almost lost our relationship over that because I just we were.
Playing Settlers that the folks are going after each other's throats for.
We were we were like trading games, you know, kind of evenly matched, and then she started just whipping me on the regular, and I was like, what is going on? And then I discovered she had the app on her phone and so she was just getting all kinds of extracurriculum.
She was honing, honing her skills. Yes, dude, I love it. Okay, So final question relatable games. What what game are you currently playing a whole lot or with friends?
Yeah, I'd say one of our recent favorites has been a game called ark Nova. It's like a zoo building game.
Of all, oh, I'm running down right now.
Yeah, you kind of whatever building closures and put animals in them, and I love it. Got to catch them all type.
So nerdy, so dorky, but I love it. The last one we cracked Open, uh for the first time was wingspan, which yes, yeah, were one of the prettiest, prettiest, and you get to learn because you're learning about these actual species of birds and the eggs and how much they typically lay and where they nest, and I mean it's it's yeah, that's right, Okay, before we completely lose all of our listeners and we gotta start talking about money and for for you personally, I mean, like you said
that you were pursuing what you would call conventional.
Success for most of your life, Like you had good.
Grades, the right school, big time job, but you found that it wasn't fulfilling.
So what did you find was missing?
And specifically, like what what caused you to have like a come to Jesus moment?
Yeah, it's a it's a good question. I first of all, I felt very strange and like almost ungrateful because I was super, super lucky to have that position, you know, to be in that role. It was kind of like a pinch me sort of job that I felt like a lot of people would kill for. And so I was I was wondering what's wrong with me? Like why can't I appreciate this? But what really kind of made it come to a head. Was you know, I was watching people, you know, either either retire or you know,
move on. And so I watched one guy in particular retire at like forty five, and he was, you know, minted, had a bunch of money and all that kind of stuff, and so most people look at him and go, man, nice job, you know, you win the game. And I was looking at him and going like, geez, I hope that's not me. I hope by the time I'm forty five,
you know, I've done more than just this. And that was kind of a shot across the bow for me where I knew, you know, I'd known for a while that it wasn't what I wanted to do with my with my entire life, but that that really kind of, you know, set thing in motion where I realized, like, Okay, how do I not become this? You know, how do I not become this person who's only done this? How do I how do I make something and help people by the time I get there.
M So, your desire to go out there, strike it on your own, start your own business, start chronify? Was that more because you didn't think your Wall Street job was doing good in the world and you wanted to do good in the world, or was it more because you wanted more control over your time?
Like?
Was it? Was it both?
How? Yeah?
What was the thought process there?
Yeah, you're pointing out a little bit of circularity here. I mean, because the very the very product that I'm out there, you know, out there trying to trying to put into the world now, is that is based on the precursor to or it's based on the product that I used to convince myself that it was time to move on. And so the I would say, I would say this, I realized early on that it that I wasn't doing something that I always wanted to do, or that I that I wasn't going to want to do forever.
And with that, I realized, Okay, okay, well I want to make sure I don't get on this like slippery slope. I want to make sure that I don't wind up, you know, just one more year, one more year, one more year. And then suddenly I wake up and I'm fifty five, and I haven't, you know, gone out and started a business, which is what I always wanted to do. I developed an overweening interest in personal finance throughout the first you know a few years that I was on the job and it and it took a while for
it to kind of percolate. You know, I read a book called Your Money or Your Life, and that kind of planted the seed for me where I was just like, oh, okay, now that I think of it in terms of time, then all of a sudden, it's like, okay, the answers
just drop right out. And so for me, I remember being literally at the Goldman Gym, like working out, googling like your Money or Your Life app and there was nothing, and so I decided to That was kind of what planted the seed for me that I should maybe try and build some very cool so real quick.
Then what age were you when you started having those internal conversations where you were like, Okay, I don't want to do the do the one more year thing. Do you remember about when that was? Like how far along into your career?
I guess were you?
Yeah? I would say I first realized about two years into my career. I remember grabbing a friend of mine from college and saying, like, dude, if I'm still doing this at thirty two, grab me by the caller and make sure that I justify myself because I can see where this movie's going. Yeah, but you know, there's always there's always insecurity, scarcity kind of mindset that makes you go, well, maybe do I have enough? Can I move on? You know, one more year? One more year? Well?
Yeah, you also don't want to kind of toss away. You've worked so hard for this for so long, and you're like, I'm here. You don't want to be ungrateful, And maybe that desire to kind of, I don't know, continue down the path that you've set out for yourself
and not blaze a new trail. I think that can be cause a lot of people to stay put to And I guess I'm curious too when we're talking about the book your money or your life, the main life changing concept for a lot of people is thinking about their money in terms of life hours, Like, Yeah, what was that like for you reading that book? And how did that specifically kind of change your trajectory and your thought process.
I think the biggest thing was just simplicity. I'm a stickler for simplicity. You know, there's just so much out there, there's so much data, especially now that it's just like you can be drowning in too much information, it's like, you know, analysis paralysis type of thing. And for me, what that book did was it kind of knocked things into line in terms of realizing, look, you can really distill everything down to one you know, kind of single
kernel of truth here. You know, here's how many years you've got in the bank. And with that, it's just like, oh, okay, all these all these numbers that often make people's eyes glaze over, you know, net worth, expenses and stuff like that, if you can distill it all down into one little simple idea that actually has intuitive hooks. You know, people can imagine what it's like to you know, relax for seven years. Then if you've got seven years in the bank,
then that's what that says. And by the way, then that factors in everything that it needs to factor in. You know, if you're if your wealth goes up, great, it's factored in. And if your expenses go down, awesome, that's also factored in. And so for me, it was just the beautiful, full simplicity of not having to track nineteen different things but being able to distill it all down to one.
Yeah, So is that what you would tell folks like I think there might be a lot of listeners tuning in right now and they're thinking, Man, I would love to quit my day job. I would love to maybe take a more entrepreneurial path. Would you want them to have a certain number of months or even years of living expenses set aside? If I guess a what position
were you in? And then what do you think folks should maybe have in the bank before they kind of start going out on their own to pursue something that is a little more life giving.
Yeah, it's it's totally situational. You know. The conventional wisdom for you know, what do you want to have is call it like a whatever, a six month emergency fund or something. If you're going to do something entrepreneurial, it's it's way higher than that. You know, you're not going to get a business off the ground and fully running in only six months, and so you know, you might want to have a year or two at least set aside that you can that you can, you know, really
get it going. But there's no there's no hard and fast rule, and so much of it is due to you know, if you're starting a business on the side and you've got an income and that provides you more flexibility. If you are a risk taker and you're willing to eat Ramen for three years or whatever, then then great. You know, Like for me, I had to kind of oversolve because you know, I had two little kids. Now I've got three, and we were going to move across the country and start a new lifestyle. So I had
to build in some buffer. I felt really lucky because you know, I started my business in twenty twenty, like January of twenty twenty, and so I was planning on, you know, working from home and living off savings for a couple of years, and then all of a sudden, you know, COVID and kind of a lot of people had to do something pretty similar to that, you know, work from home and in some cases live off of savings.
And so I was fortunate, but I'm I'm kind of a risk averse guy by default orientation, and so I felt like I kind of had to had to oversolve. But different people, you know, different strokes were different folks.
Yeah, our understatement of the year, like, getting a startup off the ground isn't easy, right, and so like you're you're living that life, you're kind of in the middle of it still, and it can take a lot of time too, right too, and especially when it when it's kind of your fourth baby. Really you're like, oh, man, like you, you have a vested interest on multiple fronts for seeing this for seeing this thing succeed. So be
honest with us. Have you been able to strike the balance you were looking for now that you're out on your own, You're like, I quit this job because I was working too many hours. But are you working too many hours doing the thing that you love now or have you been able to find a good balance.
There's it's a continuous process to try and find that balance. You know, there's there's good parts of what I'm doing now and there's bad parts of what I'm doing now. When I think back to my time at Goldman, for example, you know, Friday night, when I walked out of the office, poof, I didn't think about work until Monday morning. And now it's the exact opposite. You know, no matter what I'm doing, there's always this background process running like, oh, how can
I tweak this, how can I make that better? How can I you know, increase the value of this product, et cetera. Because it's it's you know, like you said, it's my baby. And so there's this double edged sword because on the one hand, you know, it's like it's harder for me to be, you know, at home and present with my kids then it would be if I had a job that I didn't care about, that's for sure.
But on the other hand, it's like they get to witness a father who's in love with his work, whereas if I was just kind of work a day, humdrum, you know, waddling to the office and coming back a little bit mad, then you know, that wouldn't be That wouldn't be sending the right message to them about the role that work is supposed to occupy in their life either. And so it's a balance to be struck. I definitely
have not cracked that nut yet. And it's kind of like raising a kid where it's just like even if you even if you do figure out the perfect balance, you're not necessarily it's not going to be an always in forever thing. It's it's like two weeks from now, boom, something happens and you've got to figure out a new one. So it's it's a work in progress.
It's like a pendulum in a lot of ways.
Yeah, yeah, well, and then you've written about this as well, but like the risk versus reward isn't quite There are a lot of times when it comes to folks taking the standard nine to five jobs. Yes, you kind of hints it at this, but like there's almost like an obsession with safeness, like reducing a risk safety ism in our country today. And you've kind of talked about how you're kind of missing out on a lot that doesn't
necessarily have to come from entrepreneurship. But there is a lot that you realize when you are starting your own business, Like the highs are higher, maybe maybe the lows or lower potentially as well, but you have the ability to tap into something that gives you that truly gives you joy.
Is that something that you feel like you've seen as opposed to folks who just are kind of going along with a stock lifestyle and because of that, they're not really questioning how it is that they're making money, and they're also sometimes not questioning how they spend their money as well.
Yes, I mean entrepreneurship is not for the faint of heart, because for you know, it'll be six weeks of just this is ridiculous. I got to get a real job. You know, this is never going anywhere, followed by like the best forty eight hours in company history, and so it's like this you know, punctuated equilibrium of like you know, you zoom out and look at how things have gone over the last six to twelve months, Like, holy cow, I've actually been doing this. It's working, but the lived experience,
week in week out is just exhausting. You know. It's just this this constant string of it's it's kind of like if you're whatever watching your investment accounts every day. The way that we're wired as humans is that if it's up fifty cents one day and down fifty cents the next day, you come out feeling a little bit mad,
because like, bad's way more than goods psychologically speaking. But when you zoom out and then you know, go back and look at your at your brokerage account, you know after six months or after six years, it's like, oh, wow, okay, good, I made a good decision.
Yeah all right, so you brought up investing, So I'm gonna go there now. We our friend Doc g He talks about front loading the sacrifice, and it is, of course true that a dollar invested when you're nineteen is going to do more for you than a dollar invested
at age like forty nine. Right, So, and we've heard more recently about something called consumption smoothing, where some economists have said, hey, instead of investing early, maybe you kind of you know, borrow a little more when you're younger, don't invest quite as much, start investing in your forties. How do you think about finding a happy medium though in those early years when investing is important, But I don't know, it's also possible to take it to the extreme.
Yeah, i'd say one, do as I say, not as I do. I screwed this up big time when I was when I was in my initial career because I part of it was because I really wasn't enjoying my job as much as I should. And so I had this you know, if I'm unhappy at work, then I thought that the cure for that was like, Okay, sprint for the finish line and like get out of here
as soon as possible. And so what that's a recipe for is like, Okay, you're unhappy at work, so yeah, let's go ahead and make ourselves unhappy at home too. And that's gonna somehow unhappy at work plus unhappy at home. That just makes you unhappy. And so you definitely don't want to be like sprinting for the finish line and just like is scrimping and saving and you know, investing every single little penny and not being willing to you know,
experience your life. But at the same time, I I kind of get queasy when I when I hear people advocating, you know, that kind of economist dictum of consumptions moving to like, oh, yeah, borrow, to borrow to the hilt, you know, like when you're twenty two, and then don't worry, it'll all work out when you're.
Yeah, you're always going to make more and you'll be able to overcome the borrowing that you did when you were younger.
Right, And so I would say, I would say, you know, live within your means first and foremost. You know, you want the bank account to be going up, not down, and so live within your means. And that means different things for different people. But then I think it's just as important, especially for people who are wired like I am, which is, you know, like a kind of caveman style like saving spending bad.
Type when people ask me what's been like, I always say, caveman, that's.
Exactly in the old Gico commercial.
Yeah, just like that right exactly it bingo, And so that that's me. And so for people who are wired like that, I think oftentimes you need some encouragement to take some ownership of your spending it and do that craft beer equivalent type of thing. Because honestly, for me, when I kind of what made the lights come on was I was realizing myself, like, dude, okay, you're afraid to bust spend eighty dollars on this board game? What
are you? What are you teaching yourself? If you if you like, if you defer this purchase, if you just like don't do this thing that's going to make you happy, Well, one, you're not going to be happy now because you're not gonna be able to, like, you know, play this game with your wife or whatever. And two, you're training yourself to think that, you know, happiness is cheaper than it
is for you. The reality is if if happiness for you guys is like craft beer every day, then you don't want to lie to yourself about what that happiness costs. You want to like pull the first Fruits of retirement forward and experience them every day until retirement, in addition to when you're you know, sipping them on the beach or whatever.
It's just the head off the top of the beer. We're not even pulling the full first foes forward, but it's just it's just a little bit, just a little bit of the taste. But what you're talking about here, you know, I guess up until now, we've we've been talking about earning money in career and finding fulfillment there. But what a lot of what you're talking about here has to do with how how it is that you
spend your money. And so we're actually going to spend a lot more of our conversation with you talking about just that.
We will get to more on.
Time and money with Ben Miller right after the break.
All right, let's keep talking about time and money such an important relationship. And some people I might think, Matt, that you and I think that money is the most important thing. Heck, we've been doing a podcast about money for almost going on six years now. We talk about it three times a week, right, and yes, money is clearly an important thing, but we always talk about it as a tool, right, it's a tool that allows us to pursue other things in our lives, some of which
are more important. And so we're talking with Ben Miller about why time is actually more important with money than money, and so, Ben, why is this connection between time and money? Why is it so important for us to make that connection? And for instance, like a recurring one hundred dollars a monthly expense, it might make us feel a certain way, but then thinking about it in terms of how many hours of our life that spending is cost us, that it kind of hits us differently, doesn't it?
Absolutely? And I think I think ultimately all this stuff hinges around the concept of enough. You know, that's like a really tricky word when it comes to finance, and so if you don't have a good framework, you're just not able to really understand what enough even means. And so ultimately what enough means is going to be different
for different people. That's going to be based, you know, primarily upon their spending, and then you know they're going to have to apply some kind of a multiple of Okay, here's how many years I think I'm going to live during retirement or whatever it may be. But we don't want to get complicated here. The idea here is that like when you think about spending your money, you want to make sure that it's a good deal. You don't want to make sure you're not like frittering it away
on things that you don't actually care about. But likewise, you don't want to make the other type of error either. You don't want to refuse to spend money on things that are actually good for you. So use that, you know, one hundred dollars recurring expense, like I think about, for example, date night with my wife. And so so I'm a guy who like feels a little bit queasy every time
a dollar leaves his wallet. And so normally when I, like, you know, pay for something, when I'm signing the check, I'm just like kind of shaking my head, you know, hopefully inside my head and not actually the people that I'm at dinner with, but like I'm thinking, like, oh, gosh, Ben, you really screwed this one up. Like there's more money leaving, Like the money's going the wrong way.
Shouldn't have got the appetizer.
Right exactly exactly. And so for me, that's the way that I'm wired. But when I understand things in terms of time. Then all of a sudden, I can have ownership and permission because for example, that that you know, one hundred dollars expense, I might look at that, run the numbers and go like, okay, that is delaying my retirement by three months. Just let's just say, then if I look at that you know, date night with my wife and go okay, this is delaying my retirement by
three months, then I go, okay, is that scary to me? Well, one, I love my job and so like you know, delaying my retirement is not really all that scary. And two, I'm investing in the relationship that's the bedrock of my family, and so if anything, I'll do it twice as much,
like this is a great deal for me. So now when I sign that check, instead of just feeling like, uh wrong, money's going the wrong way, I feel like, Okay, good, this is approved, this is you know, kind of been blessed by the system, and it's something that I that I feel good about rather than bad about.
Yeah, and kind of going back to what you're saying about knowing what it is to have enough and as far as delaying your retirement by a certain number of months or even years, I guess for maybe a giant purchase.
But you write about too, how it's not even about reaching some sort of golden date, right like and within the fire community, it's like what's your number yea, and it's you talk about how it's not often about that and on how to money, Like when we talk about it, we call it the basically how financial independence exists as a spectrum, but you talk about it within the sort
of context of being able to curate problems? Can you talk about some of the other benefits how even if you're not necessarily focused on a hard retirement date sort of like like you're not because you love the work that you do, but it does provide some other benefits.
I love that. I mean, curating problems is a concept that's near and dear to my heart. Like I think that one of the best things about you know, quote unquote financial independence. And I don't want to creep people out, like, you know, there's there's a lot of like there's a lot of baggage that comes with this term of financial independence. So what I'm talking about when I say that is like basically having enough money to choose how you spend your time, just to just to put it in broad strokes.
And so one of the best parts about that state of the world is being able to determine, you know, just based on your soul discretion, what's worth your time
and what's not worth your time. And so it's not like this abject refusal to ever earn a dollar again, is just the state of the world where you can determine, like, this is a problem that I really want to spend some time on, This is something that animates me and makes me feel good, versus this is something that I wish somebody else would do, you know, because that's that's this kind of illusion people think that like work is
the enemy. And you know, I can tell by the you know, the product that you guys create and how much joy that it's obvious that you take in creating it, that this is not something that it's like, oh yeah, if you'd you know, ten million dollars dropped out of the sky tomorrow. It's not like Joel and Matt would be like peace, you guys are we're out last episode, it's coming out todays out forever exactly like you you would probably kind of keep on going, you know, maybe
at a reduced pace or something. I don't know, but like you'd you know, if you're creating something that you actually like seeing in the world, then it doesn't have to be all about money. So I hope that answers your question.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely talk to us about mindset. And I don't want to get super fre frew here or anything like that, but like it's it's true that we're humans. We can't necessarily change how we think overnight, and even if we did, right, it wouldn't make our our paycheck fatter immediately. It doesn't solve everything, but our mindset plays a role in the kind of progress that we make.
So so how do you think about the scarcity mindset and how it can it can maybe stemy our journey towards financial freedom, right, like if we're if we're too focused on that, like, oh man, my dollars is gonna run out, like you can almost create uh, like mental problems. Are you ever on our path actually free?
Right? Yeah, exactly, And I think that's it's beautiful because you're pointing at the fact that there's a ditch on
both sides of the road. You clearly don't want to be like setting yourself up for a cat food retirement, you know, just like completely blowing all your money on stuff you don't care about, but likewise you don't want to, you know, just wind up that guy who's got seven million dollars in the bank and was you know, was not spending any of it and and wasn't able to enjoy any of it because like people, people missed that second leg of the swap, that second leg of the transaction.
You know, if you're good about money, then you're building up your bank accounts, you're investing, you're doing all that type of stuff. But like savings are always in everywhere just delayed consumption. Like that's all you're doing when you're saving money is your deferring it to some future date.
And so that scarcity mindset type of thing. People people kind of get lulled into this this you know, false sense of things when they think that, you know, budgeting is like a symptom of a scarcity mindset or something like that. It's not you're you're by by budgeting or by you know, saving money or by you know, considering the future. I think it's actually evidence of an abundance mindset because you're, you know, you're admitting to yourself that
there is a future worth saving for. And so I think I think it's important for people to strike that balance the right way, not spend too little, not spend too much, you know, kind of try and find their own goldilock zone of being able to you know, spend in a way that is aligned with their goals is going to get them where they want to be eventually, but be able to enjoy, be enjoy think, be able to enjoy their lives along. The way I did things backwards,
I was like financial independence. This was my mentality back in the day. Was like, okay, financial independence asap and then happiness eventually. And that was for me completely backwards. You know, I wound up having to get off that train and realizing that like, Okay, this is not sustainable, Like I'm gonna burn myself out before I get to you know, fire or whatever it is. So I need to take a more measured path, you know, build a machine that's actually gonna be able to sustain itself all
the way to conclusion. Yeah.
Man, I think some of the saddest things to me when I read some posts in the fire reddit forums and stuff of people who win.
Don't spend too much time there.
Yeah, yeah, right, No I don't.
But I'll see a case the cautionary tale.
Yeah, I'll see a cautionary tale of somebody who who says, listen, I bought into this hook line at Sinkery, and I missed a bunch of important time. I didn't go to the family events that because I was too scared to buy a plane ticket. My girlfriend dump me. That's the story, because I mean there's all of these kinds of stories out there that You're right, there's a ditch on both sides.
And so that is like what we're always talking about here on the show is the balanced middle where yeah, have a have a high savings rate, but don't forsake the important stuff in the meantime on the road every day,
every minute, is it is worth saving? And if we're if we're so heavily focused on the future, and I think Matt and Now we've probably been there at different times too, maybe not to as much of an extreme as some of these fire adherents, but you're missing out on a lot of the good and awesome things that you can enjoy now too.
Absolutely.
Okay, So what you talk about is how not only do we need to own our saving and investing, but we also need to own our spending right, And that's just the language you give to being intentional with your spending, because oftentimes folks are only focused on that acquiring side of the equation as opposed to the spending side of it. And so, do you have any thoughts or any advice for folks on how it is that they can transition
to spending more money? Right as folks are starting to make that switch, you do have to be a little more intentional with how it is that you're spending money. Hopefull you are, there are small ways that you are spending even when you are young and you feel broke, but there are these small, tiny little splurges. But it's yeah,
it exists on a spectrum. And as folks are achieving varying degrees of financial freedom, how do you encourage folks to think about spending more money than they're used to?
I mean, Step one is knowing what you value. Step one is understanding you know, for you as an individual, what are your priorities? What is it that you're actually all about? You know? And so if that's time with your family or if that is you know, building some building towards some fulfilling mission in the world, whatever it is. If you're spending money along those lines, then there's a
good chance that there's a fair amount of alignment. You know, when I look at my habits, when I look at the types of things that I'm spending my money on, it's it's again, it's a two edged sword, because I'm trying to simultaneously identify things the places that I can trim the fat, so to speak, places that I go, oh, I didn't realize I'm spending so much money there. Okay, then I should probably tone that down, you know, let's be more intentional on that its own. But I'm also
looking for places that I can double down. I'm looking for places that I can go, Okay, this looks like an unusually good deal, you know, this whatever date night with my wife or a gym membership or or whatever it may be. These positive habits, how can I lean into that, and and how can I find other things like that that are aligned with my priorities and things
that I really want to to be more about. Because you know, if you want to figure out what's important to somebody, there's a good argument that you should just go look at their you know, their credit card register and see what they've been spending their money on.
Yeah, and their calendar whatever they've been spending their time. To be exactly, we say something matters, Oh, time with my kids matters. Well, I don't know how much time are spin it right exactly like did you did you hop on the bike with them this over the weekend or whatever?
I mean?
Yeah, And I love that you focus so much on time, Ben, because you know, because you might look at somebody's bank account and they may not actually be spending their money, right, and so you have the ability to see from their spending or a specific from their lack of spending.
That, man, what what is it that you actually do value? Because there is a way to kind of choke that off. Whereas the time that like our days, no matter what, we are spending our time doing something we're forced to no matter like, you can't stop time. It is taking along no matter what. And so even if your Netflix and chilling literally the whole day, yes, or even if you have a completely you're like, oh, I can't wait for Saturday, the calendar is completely wide open. Well, you're
going to do something with that time is. So what you actually do with that, I think does reflect on what it is that that you truly do value. I think if you were to sum it up like that, we are kind of the sum of our habits, the things that we spend our time doing. We kind of, I don't know, become in a sense formed by those habits. Right, And and there are some habits that have negative financial consequences. In your in the software that you developed Chronify, you
talk about the impact of habits on our lives. How do you do that in the software? And and then how do you help people understand their habits and the financial and time consequences of them?
Sure, I think, well, unsurprisingly, it's all about time. And so when I think of when I think of a habit, and you think about something as tricky as human behavior, you know, changing a habit is not easy. And so what we try and do is we try and you know, marry together the left brain spreadsheety sort of numbers side of the equation with the right brain, you know, holistic
emotional side of things. That's where you're going to make all your decisions anyway, So let's work through like an example, if you have a habit. Let's say you you know, you're at the office. You you get like a fancy sandwich at work for lunch or that type of thing, and you're thinking about a habit change. You're going like, Okay, my waistline and my budget are saying that maybe I should maybe think about this habit. Then you might think
about packing lunch to work, for example. And if you do that, then you may get to the end of the month and you realize, like, Okay, I save two hundred dollars by packing my lunch to work instead of
buying this fancy sandwich. And if you do that, then if you've made some progress and you've already kind of accumulated some investments and stuff, you might look at your brokerage account at the end of the month and go like it's up or down by five to ten grand, and it's like, why did I do this to myself? Why did I deprive myself of this you know, midday
treat or whatever. But you're kind of missing the missing the point because you're you're looking at You're going two hundred dollars versus ten grand, This is out of my control?
Why do I care? But the reality is the power of habit, especially as it relates to time, is that that you know, two hundred dollars a month is two hundred dollars a month, and so that's twenty four hundred dollars a year, which if you're going to invest money and try and live off your money forever, then that requires, you know, assume the four percent rule four percent real return after taxes or whatever. Then you need sixty thousand
dollars to fund that habit in perpetuity. And so it's no longer comparing this two hundred dollars savings with you know this ten grand that your brokerage account went up or down. You're comparing you know this, this ten grand that your brokerage account went up or down with a
six sixty thousand dollars impact of this habit. And so what we kind of do by looking at things in terms of time is right, size all of this and adjust for the fact that, look, if you if you decrease your expenses, then yes, you know you're running faster
toward the finish line. But the beautiful thing is when you metric it in terms of time, you also see that the finish line is running towards you because if your expenses go lower, then enough is lower, and if enough is lower, it takes less time to get there.
Well that sounds like, I don't know, it make you feel better knowing that not only are you e dining closer, but like the finish line is inching further in your direction too. Yes, then we got a couple more questions for you, including curious to hear your take on paying for convenience you're essentially buying time back. I would love to hear your thoughts on that. We'll get to a couple questions on that front right after this.
All right, back to our conversation with Ben Miller and uh been right before the brake, Joel, you know we were talking about your app Chronify. Personally, I was secretly hoping that your one of your craft bre equivalents was going to be watches, like like like because I don't think we've ever had anybody on the show where they were like, oh I like to collect vintage Rolex's, Like oh yeah, I've got a bunch of pocket watches Omega
Speedmasters or something like that. I only say this because there's a brief period of time where I really got into them, and I thought, is this something?
Am I going to be like a watch guy? And I was like, no way, these things are way too expensive.
It would be a fitting hobby for you, though, Ben, it would I would be.
I'm ashamed to say I've just got a fit bit. That's that's what I'm right.
Hey, I've got a bracelet that my daughter made on my rest. But been like different optimization gurus out there, like they've kind of created a cult around productivity, and oftentimes you can kind of enter that space when you're talking about time and it's our belief that I think oftentimes this goes overboard and it leads many folks to just like a nose to the grindstone mentality where you
are foregoing any pleasures in the here now. So you know, some optimization is helpful, but do you think it can be overdone?
Optimization is something that can absolutely be overdone. I think people who are wired like I think you guys are and like I am, you know, there's a there's a temptation to really to really go ham on optimization. But you gotta you gotta make sure that you're you know, accounting for your humanity here, like you're not a robot it's not a it's not a it's not a matter of putting in the right code and then just executing
until you die. It's it's about finding something that's not only you know, going to get you where you're going and do it on time, but also you know in being able to enjoy and savor it all along the way, because ultimately, like you get to the end of the end of your life on your deathbed, all that matters is human connection anyways. And so if you're if you're optimizing for anything other than that, you're kind of messing it up.
Hmm. I love that. Okay, let's talk about paying for convenience because it's saving you time, right, which is, as we said, kind of the most critical resource here. But Americans are also spending a lot of money on convenience that they might not be able to afford. I'm thinking, like, some kinds of paying for convenience makes sense to me, but then other kinds make a whole lot less sense.
Grub Hub, for example, I don't get it, like I'm not going to do it, But then there are other things where I do pay someone to let's say, mow my lawn so that Saturdays I can spend on the hiking trails or with kids doing activity stuff like that. What are your thoughts on paying for comedians and where do you draw the line?
Oh, man, I'm kind of an Aweschuck's midwesterner, and so like I was feeling incriminated because like I still mow my lawn and it's probably a horrible use of my time. It's like I, I it's different for different people, you know. For me, it's like I kind of look for those two firs or three firs in life where it's just like, Okay, well it might be it might take me less time to drive to the gym, but maybe it's you know, I'm going there anyways to exercise, and so maybe I
should walk. For me, I look at mowing my lawn and they're kind of like a similar rubric where it's just like, Okay, well I was going to get some physical activity, I might as well, you know, do something, do something productive with it. But in terms of paying for convenience, I think it's all about your values. It's all about you know, one, live within your means. That's rule number one. If you're breaking that one, like, sort
that out before we get into this stuff. But if you're able to live within your means, then it's about figuring out what your what your values actually are. And so, like I think of one of the habits that always kind of comes up on the top of my charts. It's a fast casual restaurant called Kava. It's kind of like a Mediterranean interpotal. Actually they just ipot and so maybe more people think about them, and then I'm aware of anyways, I think of that and I go, Okay,
well should I feel ashamed of this? You know, like what are what are we doing here? And really what it is is it's a way for us to put food on the table that's you know, clean, healthy and convenient without the cooking and cleaning and just be able to kind of sit down with all five of us as a family and enjoy ourselves. And so I look at that and it's like, yes, we're paying more for convenience, but for us, it's mission aligned and so it's it's
those convenience things. Is that's how I That's the rubric that I evaluated under is does it align with my mission? And can I afford it? And if both of those come back yes, then go for it.
But do you get it delivered or do you go pick it up?
Oh?
No, we pick it up.
We're not okay, we're not rights.
That's what I like to hear. It doesn't have that delivery money.
That's a demarcation on the financial independent spectrum is how readily are you ordering food.
To be literally dropped?
Are delivery?
Five?
Yeah? Right?
Yes, I don't know that I've ever got enough money in my bank account to overcome like the what's like what's built inside of me?
Right?
Those extra dollars in particular, because if that doesn't align with your mission. So like, I like how you said that, Ben, because that kind of goes back to you know, when it comes to how we should think about spending more money, it's like, do I value this? It comes down to intention? Yes, because it makes me think about For a while there, I was cutting my own grass because not because I was afraid of spending the money, but because I wanted
my kids to see me cutting the grass. There is a lesson there and seeing and for them, and I literally made them made them watch it the whole time. Sit here on this deep I'll watch it, watch that crass.
But it's just I don't know there's there's a lesson to be to be taught there, and we're like, we're doing something similar right now when it comes to cleaning, cleaning the house, and because I'm like, we are in a financial position to where we could clean the house, but I want my kids to know what it is like, what it's like to clean the house, for them to pick up all their things, to dust their their blinds, Like literally, we did that this past Saturday, and I
kind of I try to brainwash them a little bit. We call it super Saturday, but it's where we it's good branding and in the morning we go hog wild and we go to town on the cleaning. Because I we may not always do that, but at least for a period of time and maybe and definitely who knows, because maybe they'll get so good at it that I don't know, they're able to like knock it out faster
and faster. But I think, like you said, man, if you are able to align the mission of what it is that you are doing with how it is that you're spending money or not spending the money, I think think that can lead to the justification to be parted with your dollars. Whether again whether or not you're saving money or whether you are actually spending that money. But at the end of the day, I think that's what's at the core of this conversation.
I absolutely and to me it comes back to curating your problems. Because you know, you might opt into cleaning the house while you opt out at mowing the lawn. That's just fine, you know. Like there it's different strokes for different folks, and it's something that everybody kind of has to figure out for themselves. What's important to remember is that it is this balance that needs to be struck because you don't want to be, you know, just
completely diying everything and shooting yourself in the foot. You know by doing so. You don't want to be whatever, stitching your own shoes and weaving your own clothes, you know, at least for most people. But at the same time, you don't want to be outsourcing everything either, because if you outsource every problem in your life, you've just gone and outsourced your life. You need to participate in solving some problems because otherwise, like frankly, there's nothing left to
life once you subtract you know, all the problems. What are you just gonna lay there blissed out and like looking at the sky, like there's there's.
Like Peter from office space.
Right.
I think some people that's like kind of their goal is. I think I'm gonna eventually get to that. But what you're alluding to is our lives never run out of problems, they just look different.
Yeah, exactly, And so it's it's about choosing which problems you opt into and being able to choose that is a wonderful thing.
Yeah, for sure, Ben, this has been a great conversation. Man, Thank you so much for joining us. How can our listeners find out more about about you, about your podcast and about the chronified software that you've created.
Yeah, so we've got a podcast, the Quantify Podcast, aptly named, and the main way is you can come and check out Chronify. In fact, if you go to chronified dot com slash how to Money, there's a twenty five percent discount waiting for you. And that's that's good as long as we're as long as we're alive and kicking. So that that's the first month, it's it's good forever. So I would love to I love what you guys are doing.
I love the podcast, I love you know, the awareness that you guys are creating about the right way to think about this stuff. And so I really want to say, I appreciate you having me on.
Oh Man, No, we're glad. I'm glad to do it. We're just too idiots learning on the fly. Honestly, as we're having these conversations, we're and we're learning alongside our audience. We're not here from some perch up above trying to tell people how to live. And so that's why these conversations are so informative couple for Matt and I and hopefully for the audience too. So Ben, we appreciate you coming on, man, Thank you, Thank.
You nice joel Man.
It's always fun to talk with somebody who is like missionally aligned, right, like Ben is thinking about his money and his time in a similar way.
That we try to that we strive to at least.
And I just said missionally aligned. And so I'm gonna go actually gonna go ahead and give my big takeaway.
Because stealing Ben's phrases now it.
Is well, one of the things that Ben said, like when it comes to like that was the advice he had for trying to determine what it is that you're going to spend money on, He said, like what is.
It that you value?
And similarly, what is it like what is your mission going to be? And this is a quick plug for the how to money mission statement. It takes some time. It takes a little bit of introspection, asking yourself the right questions in order to figure out what it is that your mission is going to be, in order to figure out subsequently then what it is that you're going
to spend your money on. And so that was my big, big takeaway, And that's not necessarily anything new, and so I'm gonna I've got a new thought because when it comes to a lot of times, folks come to us with questions and they're like, Okay, should I pay off this debt or should I do something else with it? And oftentimes what we say is that it depends and specifically it depends on what you're doing without money. If
you don't pay down that debt. Right, It's like, sure, you could eliminate some student loans where you're paying seven percent, but are you then going to take that money and invest it where you're based on historic returns, you're going to earn at least seven percent? Because if not, it might be a waste of money. Right, And so let's take that same principle and apply it to time. I think that's another way that I'm going to start using to deter and whether or not something is worth me
spending the money on. Okay, I have now gained time in my life. I have essentially made time. Now what am I gonna do with that time? Am I going to use that time and funnel it towards things that are that I place a high value on, towards things that are missionally aligned with what I say are important?
Or am I just gonna like sit around like like you know, I thought, like you were saying, am I going to end up on the couch browsing Netflix or something like that, looking for you know, just ways to pass the time? Well, if that were to be the case, and that would be a poor use of spending that money, right, Like if I pay somebody to cut the yard and instead I'm using that time.
To watch more TV.
Well, you know what, if you're if you want to be like a movie critic or like, okay, then it could be missionally aligned. But for the vast majority of folk, that's it's just a default thing because Oh the sofa in the couch, it's comfortable.
I'm gonna sit there.
Oh the remote is just right here, and it's just something you kind of fall into. Folks are like, we're so tempted to just hit the easy button and we haven't thought through some of these more value driven ways that we could spend not only our money, but our time. And so that I just want to take that principle from money and I want us to also apply it to time. What are you then going to take the time that you've made or the time that you've saved.
Is that going to something that you actually value?
Yeah, that's my big take I think my bigg takeaway was when he said, thinking in terms of time, it grants you ownership and permission, right, And so he gave the example of going out to eat, going on date night with his wife and how when he thought when he thinks of it as just dollars floating out, he gets nervous. Right, He's a reluctant spender, which I can
identify with. But when he thinks about it in terms of oh, yeah, it's going to cost me some time off for retirement, off my future ability to not have to work. Well, actually, it's not as big of a deal because this is a really important thing and I like my work. And so when it gave him actually the permission to spend money in a way that he was reticent to do, and I thought of that as
being really empowering. And I think when we think about what something costs us, not just in terms of dollars and cents, but also in terms of hours of the day, it can really help us to reframe whether or not that thing is worth it or not. And so, yeah, it does it make sense to spend the money on a convenience or on a new item for your wardrobe. I don't know, think about your hourly rate, Maybe figure
that out. We've talked about how to do that on a previous podcast, and think about it in terms of that. Wait a second, is that new dress or that new sport code worth four point eight hours of my life? I don't know. Maybe not. Maybe that reframes the purchase a little bit, and it either helps empower you to spend in ways that you do value or kind of puts the kaibash on spending in a way that you're like, eh, eh, I don't think it's worth it.
Yeah, No, I love it man.
Yeah, not surprisingly, our takeaways are related, like whereas I mean you're specifically, I think what you're kind of getting at are the emotions that can surround purchases, like feelings of freedom or empowerment, or feelings of regrets or reluctance when it comes to spending your money. But if you are able to identify the things that you value in life, it makes not only saving but also spending your money
so much easier. And I appreciate that Ben focuses on that side of the equation as much as hopefully we do. I think we spend a decent amount of time talking about That's why we talk about the craft beer equivalent, right, because we're looking for things from our guests that they value. You know, we want to frame the conversation around that. It's not just about saving and investing as much as humanly plants.
I feel like in recent years I've been able to find more joy in spending in the ways that I care about, the ways that I say that I care about, instead of feeling reluctant to do those things, largely through kind of changing my framework. But it's important to do. Yeah, you mentioned beer. Let's get back to the beer we had on the show. This is called aproguav Tasty. It's by the Veil and Veil. Of course, we like spending ridiculous amounts of money on good craft beer from time
to time, this one being no exception. Or your thoughts on the spear map.
Yeah, well I like it in the label. It's not like an ice cream cone. It looks like like the graphic. It's like a rad ice cream cone. Guy, But it doesn't necessarily taste like sugart or anything like that. But this is one percent like a smoothie style sour lots of fruit going on.
Man, This thing poured quite.
Thick, and I was expecting it to be a bit sweeter, but it was not. It had like, I don't know, the kind of sweetness that you would get from real fruit, which oftentimes isn't super sugary, not artificial, but really tasted like fruit and beer form. Yeah exactly, Yeah, yeah, there's no high fruit corn syrup sugars in here.
This.
This feels like all true fruit sugar sugariness that the guy going on here, but super good. I'm not normally a do you like apricots?
Oh, I was just about to say apricots are underutilizing in beer. I think they're one of the best fruits to stick in a beer, and for some reason, very few people use them.
I'm not a Yeah, I'm not a huge one. How do you eat apricots? You get them like dried out where they're like they're like giho.
I always get him in beer form. Oh yeah, like peaches. I feel like peaches are more normal, right, Like that's a I love peach. I don't know the last time I had an actual apricot. That was probably when I was a kid. Oh is it?
I don't even know how to say it, tomatow, But I don't know.
Man.
Yeah, it's not my favorite, but I definitely enjoyed it in beer for I'm glad you and I got to enjoy and you did taste some of those tropical guava notes going on there a little bit as well.
But uh, and definitely like an interesting body inconsistency too. Talking about the thickness, Yeah, it truly is like it it's like we're again, is like we cracked open an odwala and we're pouring one of those out or this or naked juice.
I don't even know if they make out Walla anymore. I don't know anyway. That's gonna be it for this episode. Enough about our beer. You can find the links that we mentioned up in our show notes at how tomoney dot com, including the link to the special offer that that Ben's got out there for our listeners.
It never expires for the rest of time, which makes sense.
It all fits together. Yea, what do you do? You also wish that he would have said watches. Yeah, I feel like that would have been to like batman villain ish if he was just like if he's like obsess with time, like flavor, flavor each one on his neck. Yeah, but that's gonna be it for this episode, buddy. Until next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,