The Real Reason to Avoid Debt #308

that I think we we tend to avoid. It's something that we discount, but these are very important things and I'm excited to get to those, Buddy, Yeah, yeah, it should be good. And you know, it's funny. At the dinner table last night we were talking about debt. My seven year old is learning a lot about Georgia history.

She's learning about James Oglethorpe, who who essentially founded the colony here and um and part of his mission was to eliminate debtors prisons and to give people that were in prison due to having too much debt in uh in Great Britain a fresh start over here in the United States. So I'm glad to report, Yeah, I'm glad to I'm glad that's still remaining successful that there are no debtors prison here at least. Um, if you owe somebody money and you can't pay, you're not gonna get

tossed into jail for it. But there's certainly a lot more reasons to avoid debt than going to jail, even though that's not a consequence we were facing in the United States theusdays. But Matt, before we get to that, let's talk about our printer Toner. Let's give it this is our brother printer or update. So several months or a few months ago now it is a little over three months, we talked about how our our printer gave us a little warning messages it stopped printing and it's

aid replaced owner. Uh, And I was like, wait what we we just got this thing, like we really hadn't had it that long. We started using it in May. I don't know if you remember that. Yeah, And and this was in October that we got that message. So we talked about how we we looked up how to bypass that message, and the reason for that is because our printer was working fine. I mean, it was printing perfectly fine up until then, and all of a sudden,

the message popped up, it stopped printing. We bypassed that and we continued to print just fine up until a few days ago. A few days ago, Uh, you and I were printing something off and we noticed there's kind of the streaks across the paper. We took out the toner cartridge. You gave the old shake. You love shaking the toner cartridge like weight, you know. Uh, you popped the back in there, and uh yeah, we we've got

several more prints out of it. But I think we're at the point now to where we're going to finally have to replace the toner cartridge. But I wanted to point that out because a first of all, it's like, okay, you gotta know the three months out of it, big whoop. But dude, seriously, we didn't start using that thing until the very end of April. I look back in our correspondence when we were talking about the printer purchasing it

for the for the office here. So if you do the math, that means we got more life out of that toner cartridge, which is huge. That's a big deal. Granted these things don't cost very much, but it's the little winds, uh, these little ways that we're able to, you know, just tweak a little bit and make sure

that we're able to keep more money in our own pockets. Yeah, it's it's almost like squeezing that tub but toothpaste all the way down to the very bottom bottom and getting like three more brushes out of it or eight more brushes out of it or whatever. And I know people have throwing techniques for doing that, but we kind of basically did that with the toner cartridge here, um, and I'm proud of us, man, I think that's a good move.

And yeah, next time your printer is is telling you to replace a cartridge and it still looks like it's pretty completely fine, don't listen to it. See if you can override that control. You know, your printer in all likelihood isn't the exact same as ours. But I'm sure there's a method for you to be able to do that, so you can extend the life of the cartridge or the toner that you've got. Don't just toss it out

because the computer tells you to. Yeah, that's right. Luckily, we actually do have another toner cartridge on deck because it was on sale when we purchased the printer, and you're like, oh, we totally need one of those stocking up. That's what we totally did. We have that and you were like, what are you doing there? Yeah, you bought that as well as this giant don't what do you call those? The giant boxes of pay for this got like eight reams of of paper? Is that what they're called?

Like the reems? I mean, we have so much freaking paper We're never going to go through all of it. But I mean, hey, you got it on sale. And I think our listeners are proud of the fact that, you know, anytime you put us together, like we take being cheap and frugal kind of to the next level. We're frugal on our own, but then you combine us and we're just capable of so much more. All let's

go ahead and introduce our beer for this episode. This is a beer, another beer by Heist Brewery, and this one is called emo J, so it's like o J, but it's emo J. This is a double I P A and uh yeah, looking forward to sharing this one with you, Bud, and we will share our thoughts on this beer at the end of the episode sounds good man looking forward to it, all right, but let's get

onto the subject at hand. We're talking about the real reason to avoid debt and Matt thinking about this episode, it made me think about David Foster Wallace, famous writer, uh and and he gave this uh incredibly famous commencement speech at Kenyan College back in the day. I think

it was back in early two thousands. Maybe, dude, I feel like all the best commencetion speeches were back in like the two thousand's, you know, I'm thinking of like Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Will Ferrell, like all the good ones. Getting nostalgic for those, Oprah. Maybe you can go back to YouTube and and you know, watch them to your

heart's contending. But in particular, Yeah, one of the things he said in that commencement speech with which has been something that has uh stuck with with anybody who's heard that speech. He gives this example of fish swimming in water, and these two young fish happened to meet older fish along the way, and the older fish nods at them and says, more than boys, how's the water? And then the two young fish keeps swimming for a little bit. Eventually one of them looks over to his buddy and says,

what the hell is water? And uh and basically Wallace then goes on to argue that that we tend to live our lives according to values and rules that are hard to see, much less defined, and and I think Matt such in such a similar way. We live in a culture that that pushes us to go into debt for everything. Um, it's like the message that we're constantly bombarded with. It's the water that we kind of swim

in in our society. Um. And I think you and I in this episode, we're going to push back on that messaging and give some real reasons to avoid debt. The nasty clutches of debt, Uh extend so far into so many areas of our lives, and so there's just like a ton of great reasons to be avoiding it as much as possible. Yeah, debt, it's pervasive. It's it's so commonplace, man, that we're hardly even aware of the

fact that you know that it's not normal. We haven't always lived in a society fueled by debt and increased consumption that it allows and actually it pushes us towards ever increasing amounts and varieties of indebtedness. Right, Americans currently oh, more than fourteen trillion dollars in consumer debt overall, the average American is in more than six thousand dollars in credit card debt. And then you know, we all know that the student loan debt is basically at a crisis level,

right over one point six trillion dollars in total. Uh, those numbers can be hard to even just wrap our brains around, and and sometimes we kind of just tune them out because they are hard to fathom. But you know, student loan debt has increased by over one hund percent in the past ten years alone. Wow. Yeah, that's crazy, certainly awful for so many people graduating college these days. Even back when you and I went to college, uh, you know, almost twenty years ago, it was a student

that was at a completely different point. It wasn't talked about the way it is today because it wasn't as awful and as awful of a spot as it is today affecting so many people so negatively. And then on top of that, uh, let's talk about other kinds of debt like car debt has become far more common than ever two. According to Experience, the average new car payment is five hundred and fifty four dollars a month, and that's a big chunk of a lot of people's monthly

budget if they're driving a new car. And what if, Matt, they're driving not a car but a truck instead. Even moment, it gets far, far worse. Right, Friend of the show Ben Carlson ran the numbers not too long ago on his website, and he found that most folks are going to spend anywhere between eight hundred and thirteen hundred dollars a month over sixty months, over five years in order to buy a truck. So crazy. That's before gasing insurance.

So you're talking about uh and the toe package in the toe package is gonna ramp that cost stuff even more. And that's of course gonna be a major drain on your outgoing funds every single month for a long period of time. That is like, that's what we're talking about

in this episode. Yeah, and given the mathematical answer to why debt like this is bad can also be helpful, right, So, assuming just a measly five percent rate of return, that same monthly amount invested over thirty years would grow to about four and fifty thousand dollars um. But the thing is, you know, that's not all there is to it. Debt impacts us in so many other ways. And that's exactly what we're gonna be discussing today. We're gonna talk about

the far reaching negative effects of debt on this episode. Yeah, and and part of it is just newer kinds of debt that are taking people by stage. Uh. We just there's just so many more options at our disposal then there used to be. Marketers and companies are always coming up with new ways for us to get and then stay indebted to them. Uh there's like to buy now, pay later, which which sounds so nice. Or there's zero percent interest for three years you don't pay until, or

something like that. Uh. Those furniture stores are are trying to get you to come in and buy something that you don't actually have to pay for today. Um, and of course it sounds lovely until the payday comes. Yeah. Credit card companies to man, I just renewed, I just activated a new credit card, and you know it was just got old, and so they send you new ones

that you have to activate. And while I was activating the card, the guy was just like, also, by the way, we are offering you a zero percent interest until August of this year, would you like us to go ahead and activate that for you? Assuming I was gonna say yes, And I was just like no, no thanks, And he restated it two or three different times, thinking that I didn't understand what he was saying, like, no, man, you don't get it. Yeah, I like no, I I said,

I don't want that. And I didn't want it because just in case there's I don't know any additional things associated with it that I didn't really want to give any time to to reading about. I didn't want anything else sent to me in the mail. And of course I didn't care about the zero percent because I didn't I don't carry debt on those cards. But daying, I feels debt set on making sure I was gonna take

advantage of that opportunity. Yeah, I mean, I think the main appeal, you know, when when somebody like that is trying to trying to pitch that to you, or you know, these other businesses that are offering you access to to get something today for a very small down payment and then pay for it for years to come. The main appeal is that it doesn't feel like you're spending as much as you actually are, um and that can feel

good for a minute. And of course, installment loans for nearly everything you can want are just so easily accessible these days. But but most folks are going into debt in order to buy rapidly depreciating assets right that they're trying to inflict their lifestyle by living on more than they bring home, and so buying something on credit that's quickly losing its value becomes an even worse move. I mean, there's the idea of just buying something that's going to

quickly lose its value altogether. But if you're buying it to pay for it over an extended period of time while paying interest on that item, you compound a decision that's already not a great one. Yeah, dude, it's truly a countercultural move, you know, to minimize debts or even avoiding it all together. But you know, you and I we are totally fine doing things differently being looked at a little like like weirdos. And the thing is too, man,

I don't think we're alone. Because this last year we actually saw consumer debt levels decreased, you know, unfortunately a lot of folks saw their incomes decrease. But what's amazing is that they're spending I guess decreased by even more, you know, like that in the stimulus checks, and they're tossing that money straight at their credit card debt, which was which was awesome to see. Yeah, very encouraging to

hear that. But again, there are so many other benefits and other reasons to live life on your own terms and to keep your debt to a minimum. Uh. And we're going to discuss more of that right after this break. All right, man, let's get back to what we're talking

about debt and the real reasons to avoid debt. Obviously, there's the math of it, all right, And you're paying interest for something when if instead you had bought it with cash, you'd saved up and you were investing money instead, you just ran the numbers and uh, it's a big dichotomy right in how that money works for you versus it putting you in an insecure position. Um. And it's important to note though, Uh, we've talked about this before on the show, but that not all debt is bad.

So let's talk about that just for a minute. Debt can make more sense when you're using it specifically to invest in something, and let's talk about a couple of ways that that happens. One is that you can use debt to invest in yourself, and this could be taking out student loans in order to go to college or

get an advanced degree. UM. I feel like it's kind of weird that we just talked about how awful student loans are and how bad of a place certain but but really, at times, student loans can be useful for for people in order to get to the place they want in order to earn more over their entire working career. I took on student loans um when I was in college. I was fortunate that they were kept to a minimum. I think I graduated with like fourteen dollars and student loans,

which is definitely less than most people these days. Uh. It also could be getting a professional certification that will enhance your career. Investing in yourself pays dividends for decades to come. I would say, don't get too cheap here and avoid debt to the point that you'd be harming

your future prospects. That here inhibiting your your future growth potential. Right. Yeah. Yeah, being frugal is going to a community college taking some great courses, right and being sure to limit your debtload. Being cheap is completely avoiding that deatload altogether and having no education and appreciating assets like real estate. Man, that can also be worth accumulating debt for, right, especially if

that asset will be generating cash flow for you. And so if you're buying a home to live in and and you know a house hack a portion, or maybe you're buying a multi family house in order to rent out all of the units, well, you know, in those cases, taking on debt is often the only way to get into small time real estate investing. Yeah, and debt in in that scenario makes sense because it's the only way

you're going to be able to get into that game. Yeah, some folks stay to to save up cash and do everything, you know, completely det free. But that's that's something that we advocate for. Yeah, it's just too high of a bar for almost everyone to meet. That I understand why somebody would suggest that, but um, yeah, we don't feel

the same. But even in the course of taking out debt, for investment purposes, whether you're investing in yourself or real estate, it's important to use it judiciously, right, think about what the return is going to be, and if it's worth

taking on debt in the first place. Can you potentially save up longer to avoid that debt or just to take on less debt when you're making that move, Can you go to a school that's not going to cost as much Matt like you mentioned, or or can you save up for another year to have more of a down payment to put down on that real estate purchase

that you're planning, which puts you on more solid financial ground. Right, even when we're talking about quote unquote good debt, it's important still at the same time to tread lightly and not take on whatever debt is available to you just because, um, just because you can totally man. Yeah, And so that's you know, quote unquote good debt. Let's talk about bad debt. This is the debt that you should be you know, most careful of. And we're talking about here, consumption fueled debts.

That's what you want to avoid. Uh, you know, anything that you are buying with your credit cards and that you're not able to pay off at the end of the month. That is consumption fueled debt. Credit cards, dude, they are amazing. They rock as a method of payment, but not so much as a way to buy stuff that you can't afford, you know, And if you're only able to pay the minimums or you know, are close to it, you can end up paying twice as much

for everything that you're buying once you include interests. So you know, if you're struggling to use credit cards in a way that doesn't get you into trouble, then it's going to be best to avoid them all together. Yeah,

that is interesting, Matt. That over time, if you're just paying the minimums whatever you bought, Let's say you bought an Ikea desk or a hundred fifty dollars based on the interest rate, um, if you're paying it off over years to come, because you're only paying the minimums, you might pay three dollars to that desk. And we all know three dollars for an Ikea desk is way too much. Definitely not worth it. Particle board, you know, it's just it's not gonna even last that long. Let's be honest.

But let's go back to car loans. For a second to like, long term car loans are as sempt of consumption in our society. You know, before the break, we talked about how awful and expensive these loans can get on a monthly basis. Well, the worst part is that the average car loan has been getting longer and longer over the years. So you know, we talked about based on a sixty month cycle, what it would look like.

What's what a truck payment would look like. Well, oftentimes people are stretching their debt payments on a new vehicle out for seven or eight years, so crazy. Yeah, and I feel like that in turn has led to more expensive cars and a generation of people buying the car based on the payments alone, really just stretching their financial limits in order to buy a vehicle that they never should have considered in the first place. Yeah, it really does feel that folks are only looking at the payment.

You know, the the cost of cars have gone up and in the length of the terms have also extended. But you know, you know what, they're able to maintain the same payments because they're stretching it out with even more interests over more years. Yeah, and then again puts you in a precarious financial situation. Um, if something happens to your car, or if you decide to trade that car in for a new one, you're only compare funding again the negative debt situation that that you're in, right, right,

So let's do let's keep moving on. Let's touch on like the traditional reasons to get out of debt. You know, uh, you've likely heard that you're not supposed to be in debt. Some money experts out there have spoken about the idiocy of going into debt in such harsh terms that it is like permanently scarred anybody listening. But in the fact that you or I just even mentioned credit cards as them,

like you knowing their ears what happened? Right, But dude, honestly, fear of getting yelled at by like a radio talk show host, Like, that's not a great reason to avoid debt. And of course, we talk about getting out of debt all the time here on our show. Uh, And the way that we typically talk about it is from the angle of the amounts of money that you're losing every month to interest. Right, we use basic math and highlight the fact that you want interest working for you, uh,

instead of against you. We've used the illustration before of an escalator, right, And when you have interest working against you, it's kind of like you're trying to run up the wrong escalator, which you can be fine, let's be on. It's a challenge, I'll say that, right. Uh, but think about how long it takes you to get to that next level. That's what it's like when you have interest

working against you. But when you have interest working for you, it's like you're sprinting up the side that is going the right way. Uh. And isn't it just so fun how quickly you arrived at the next level? You know, it makes me I mean, it's been forever since I've kind of been out in public on an escalator. But are you the kind of person who like stands on the escalator and like rides it up or are you a walker? I'm a walker? Are you? I'm not like

a fast walker? You know, there's certain people that you're like, don't get in their way two steps at a time, but you can hand at the airport, Yeah, yeah, they're I don't know if they're late for the plane or what's going on, but they're they're intent on moving sidewalks on their mission. Yeah, honestly, would you say that this is what it feels like when you have an e bike because you're still peddling, but you're just going away faster.

That's how it is on a moving sidewalk where an escalator, Like you're still walking, but the things moving with you, and it's like you're a bionic human being, you know, like you're able to cover so much ground. Now, it's pretty it's pretty similar. Yeah, but yeah, I'm I'm a walker as well. I don't write it unless I'm with a kid, because they get freaked out by the escalator,

at least mine. Dude. Yeah, well, that's a good illustration though, because, um, while it might be fun, especially you know when we were younger to try to run up the escalator that's going the wrong way, I got energy for that anymore. Yeah, exactly. But that's exactly what it's like when when you've incurred too much debt, you are finding yourself going going against the flow, You're battling up hill and there's there's so

many reasons for that. So yeah, we've talked about like some of the traditional reasons to get out of debt um and and those are I think compelling, but man, I think that there are a ton of other reasons actually that people should really consider getting out of debt, the real reason, the real reasons it affects them in so many other ways. We're gonna get to all of those reasons, and I think they're going to be super

compelling for our listeners. So, like, let's say you have maybe thought of your debt as not really being that bad, or maybe you're like, you know, I can play with it at least a little bit, and I can get into a little bit of debt, or I cannot pay my credit cards for a few months, and you know what, because of these other effects that debt has on your life, we would ask you to reconsider that. And so we'll get into those effects and how bad they can actually

be right after this break. All right, we are back from the break, and now it is time for the

real reasons to get out of debt. Um First, the man, saving money on interest is huge, right, and like we don't want to diminish that, But there's more to the story of what having less debt actually means in your life, you know, Like we found either thro your personal experience and you know what we hear every day from how the money listeners that the mental and the emotional, the psychological side of not owing anyone anything, or at least

being in complete control of your your debt obligations is incredibly freeing, right you know. So, aside from the math, aside from the numbers, here are the real reasons that we want folks to avoid debt. And the first one we want to touch on is the stress involved with having debt in your life. You know, many of us have personally felt the effects of of money stress in our own lives, but you know, it can also have

the big impact on those around us as well. Debt can negatively impact our relationships either with you know, our our partner as well as our children. According to a study by the Decision Lab, individuals have experienced a negative impact on relationships because of debt in their lives. Yeah. Man, I mean I grew up in a house where my parents loved each other deeply. They still love each other deeply, but I remember money was an issue. Money caused a

lot of stress. Money caused some fights. Um, that was hard on the kids, That was hard on us growing up, That was hard on my parents. Um. And so yeah, I've seen firsthand the role that debt can take in a marriage and how it can cause the levels of stress to rise severely, and um, I know some of

our listeners have experienced that to firsthand. So yeah, I'm actually surprised it's as low as because it just feels like it's one of those things where so many people are in debt in our country and that alone it does impact relationships in a negative way. Yeah, I guess the other seventy five they're just kind of taking that debt and just kind of stuffing in away, like packing it away, so which I'm sure will end up being uh, not a wise thing to do, right, Yeah, it'll come

up at some point. And another reason to avoid debt another one of the real reasons is that it makes us dumber. Being in debt and struggling to pay our bills has has been shown to lower our the i Q by thirteen points. I don't have thirteen points of

spiritual so that's why that's that's why I'm not in debt. Yeah, yeah, we don't want you going on the Forest Gump levels, you know, But like when you when you look at the facts, when you look at the stats, researchers have pointed to the fact that this scarcity mindset is actually different than stress. Right, it seems similar, but there's a

difference here. It can make you less reasonable, less rational, less generous, and more subject to bad ideas and bad impulses and matt with how unreasonable and um and irrational you are. I would have thought you had been a lot of debt, you'd think, But I make it up in generosity, there must be. You can overcompensate. O good, that's good, That's how it works. But basically, like living in access, debt can damage your psyche in a meaningful way.

And it can actually make you feel like you're walking through life with like handcuffs around your brain. Your debt can make you feel dumber than you actually are. Yeah, and dude, not actually just our minds, right, it impacts our bodies as well. And Associated Press survey man They found that individuals with high levels of debt related stress are more than three times as likely to suffer from ulcers and other digestive problems compared to people with lower

debt stress. They're also twice as likely to have heart problems, including arrhythmias and heart attacks. Dude A and the Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta. They have research that shows that debt leads to higher mortality rates as well. So so not only does this have an impact on our minds, right, and the weight and the just the thoughts that we carry around with us, but it actually literally affects our bodies and our physical health as well. Yeah. Man, that's crazy.

I feel like that is. If there's not the number one reason to get out of debt might not be the math reason. It might be that you're saving your mind in your body from like all this difficulty. I don't want else. I don't want to die either, you know, Like, uh, and yeah, the fact that debt has like these far reaching impacts on how we deal with life, how we go through life, how we feel every single day. Um, that's that's almost more important than the interest that you're

paying to the bank or the company that you're from. Yeah. So let's get to another a few other reasons why it makes so much sense to get rid of debt. Why it makes sense to avoid debt. Debt actually quells your creativity. If every problem that we have can be solved by buying something or just taking on more debt, then every problem becomes a nail and debt's the hammer. Um And then if you disallow debt having that role in your life, it'll force you to think outside the

box or to learn a new skill. I think sometimes, Matt Uh, the ability, the easy nature of being able to take on more debt in our society does mean that we are not forced to come up with creative solutions. You know, we try to talk about creative solutions on this show all the time. Whether it's going to a tool bank to borrow something as opposed to just buying that tool and putting it on a credit card that

you can't pay for. There's all sorts of ways that you're forced to be creative in your financial life when you basically disallowed debt as an option. Yeah, there's a level of resourcefulness and creativity that we can achieve by not becoming dependent on consumption in our ability to to rack up consumer debt. Right. Also, man, getting out of debt, let'slet's let's talk about freedom. Right, Getting out of debt

can unleashed. I think something inside of us that like we didn't even know is there now when we don't owe anyone anything, there's a sense of freedom that will often like spur us on to pursue either like a new venture or maybe you know, start our own business. Not everybody is necessarily wired that way, but at least one thing is true, and that is that you don't have debt holding you back any longer, regardless of what it is that you do want to pursue in your life. Yeah.

I think sometimes the debt can feel like like a lead weight around our our feet or like, h you know, when you're going to get your X rays done yet at the at the dental office, you gotta put that lead jacket on over here. It's been about ten years. Okay, yes, don't ever go to the dentist. I forget Um, you should do that. Don't send me email? Hey, no, actually do send it to Matt's specific email addressing. You don't

mind not to me. I don't want to read those, but please criticize him for your t is still look good though, buddy. Um. But but yeah, when you go into a dental office, Matt and they finally do take your X rays, you'll put on this like led jacket that goes over the top of you. I do remember that. It's it's like walking around with that all the time. It can feel like that being in debt. A little bit of it is comforting, you know, like they got

that they've got those weighted blankets. Yeah, my brother in law has one of those that you asked for Christmas, like several years ago. It's really nice when you're lying down. It's different when you're trying to like walk exactly. Dude. It makes me think of those folks that have like the weighted vests and they're out for a run or like hiking up a mountain. It's like, what are you doing? You were insane? But I guess they're training. Training. That's what you want to do, but it's not what you

want to do when you're actually running a race. And and that's basically what we're talking about now, right, Like this is the race of life. This is you know, this is our personal finances that we're talking about here. Yeah. Yeah, and debt limits our future options because we're weighed down

by the pain minuts of prior decisions. It's like those debts are just like more and more of those X ray jackets as a way to jackets like coming down top of this and like every year that we continue to progress in this way, it's more and more weight that's added on to how we move through life. This leads to less freedom and less autonomy in our own lives. When we're inundated with debt, it's harder to move to

a new place, and work opportunities can be limited. You may even be forced to stay in a job that you hate because your debt levels are out of control, Like you have to have that job, you have to have that paycheck every two weeks or things are gonna completely fall apart um. And so I think that is another one of the biggest reasons to get out of debt is that you do have more control over the decisions you you want to make. You have more options

in greater freedom when you have less debt. Yeah, that's right, man. And one other real reason that we want folks to get out of debts is because when debt is always an option in our lives, it doesn't foster our ability to say no right. Self control is an important part of personal finance, and when debt is an easy option that we're used to taking, we tend to weaken those super important self control muscles. As those muscles atrophy, we find ourselves open to borrowing more and more, we find

ourselves over consuming. Uh you know, we're we're saddling our future selves with those past decisions. Like you you just you were just talking about that. Um, Like we make these decisions in the past and we find ourselves paying for them like a little bit in the you know, in the future. Like it's sometimes it's not that far into the future. Right. We just got out the holidays,

and it made me think of eggnog Christmas cookies. Uh, in the moment you eat those or you know, you know, you're like, oh, yeah, eggnog, that sounds really good, but what is it? Like two SIPs and you're just like, oh, egg bad decision, you know. I feel like that's how it is when it comes to debt. In the moment, it's so easy and it's so tempting and it sounds so great, but it doesn't take very long before we

are regretting those decisions. Yeah, it's funny too. I remember in my twenties I would hear people, you know, ten fifteen years ahead of me, and they would talk about how man I had two beers las signed I don't feel very good today, and I was like, I don't understand that because when I have two beers, I feel great the next day. But the older you get, you

begin to feel the impact of those decisions more. And yeah, so I think true with our finances, right, Like I think when you're younger, you have more energy, maybe have more wiggle room when it comes to your expenses and what you can earn a little more resilience, Yeah, a little more resilience exactly, you can kind of make up

for some of those poor decisions. But as we get older, we either don't want to expand that additional energy to make up for poor spending decisions, or a lot of folks don't have that as an option, right, Yeah, yeah for sure. So so really, when it comes down to it, there are a lot of reasons to avoid debt. Debt is actually much more than just a mathematical problem that needs solving. I think we have to think about it

in those terms. We have to think about it as a problem that affects our whole being, that affects our relationship, that affects the way we go through our days. And if you're mired in debt, you're likely missing out on the freedom and the creative opportunities that kicking debt to the curb can bring you. So, yeah, we hope that this episode has been some some motivation to spur you on towards getting after that debt payoff plan this year. Man. Actually actually feel like I'm not sure if it was

just motivation. I feel like we're almost like the ghost of Christmas future something coming to Ebene's are Scrooge like, this is what debt can do to you? And um, I really do. I mean I only thirty days behind the curve by Christmas, right, But it feels like it's this important message to relay that that that's not something to mess around with or play with, that that it can have profound effects on your on your life, um and on you know, your marriage, on your friendships, it

really in your health. Yeah, it's far reaching the impacts of of taking on too much debtload in your life. Yeah. So, Joel, you know, during this episode, we have basically made a case why we want you out of debt, but we haven't necessarily told you how to do that. But that's because we've we've already done that. We've done that in recent episodes. We recommend folks to check out a recent

episode to seven. That's where we talked about the debt snowball versus the debt avalanche, which are two different methods of paying down debt. And if you find yourself in massive amounts of debt and you, I mean you feel completely overwhelmed, we would recommend for you to check out a nonprofit debt counselor via the NFCC or check out Money Management International. That's the company that Thomas Needs she

works for. We actually interviewed him back in the episode one and he was able to provide some some helpful advice and thoughts when it comes to the overwhelming amounts of debt that we can find ourselves in. So so, yeah, this is this episode is all about why you should be avoiding it. Check out those two episodes if you're looking for some next steps, and we'll make sure to link to those episodes within the show notes for this episode, no doubt. All right, man, let's take it back to

the beer. Uh. Today on the show, we drank a double I p a called emo j like emoji but orange juice. I don't know, it's kind of kind of weird connotation going on here from I thought about it from the emoji standpoint because it's j It's not g that's true, but it still feels like emoji. Um even think it's emo j okay, but the hop kind of looks like in Emoji. I saw the emo and it maybe.

I mean, we're kind of referencing our college days. They're thinking like dashboard copet totally take me, Yeah, Dashboard confessional days. But yeah, man, this this beer. So these guys are out of Charlotte High Spury and if you are anywhere near Charlotte, you have got to check out this brewery.

This was a fantastic beer, Like you said, a double I p A hazy New England style I P A and like the name suggests, it's like a glass of orange juice, super orange, super you know, fruity citrusy and had that smooth nature going on, but with a lot of hot flavor. Really enjoyed this one. I'm actually really excited now that we've got two more High Spury beers to enjoy next week. But yeah, what were your thoughts

on this specific beer? You know, I thought this one was interesting, almost had like a tiny bit of like corientor flavor going on too. I don't know where that was coming from but um. But yeah, so this was it was an interesting beer. I mean I always love a beer like this. I mean, do we ever get tired of the O J style? Um? I vas I don't think so. There's another good one from heist Um for sure. So all right, Matt, I think that's gonna

do it for this episode. For our listeners who want the show notes for this episode, or you can check those out along with a lot of other resources up on our website at how to money dot com. Yeah, buddy, that's gonna be it. So until next time, Best friends Out, Best Friends Out. M M.