Welcome to Hoa of Money. I'm Joel, I'm Matt. Today we're talking about the student loan shakeup with Travis Hornsby.
Indeed, Joel, this is a more pressing, a more urgent interview episode, which we don't typically get to do because normally it's like a book tour and we're diving into the book. It's like, do we talk to him now or do we talk to him in like two months. Typically it doesn't matter, but that is not the case giving our topic of conversation today because according to the new US Education Secretary, it is time for student borrowers
with federal loans to begin making payments. The clock is taking and May fifth is the date that nearly two million borrowers are going to be moved into repayment plans and collections will begin for a loan that are in default. This is a massive shakeup from what borrowers have experienced over the past five years. And luckily we're joined by a founder and CEO of Student Loan Planner, Travis Hornsby, to parse out all the details. And Travis is very
qualified to talk about this. He has consulted on several billion dollars of student debt, which is mind boggling. He's a CFP, he's retired at the age of twenty five before starting a student loan planner. I don't even know if we'll have time to get to that, but he is the man to turn two in response to all of the latest student loan changes that we are about to experience. And so Travis Hornsby, thank you so much for coming on how to Money.
Absolutely, you know, you know, student loans are pressing, but they don't have to be depressing, right, and so for how to Money listeners, it doesn't have to be that way.
So I'm excited to talk about it today.
Glad you're here to bring the optimism, my friend. First question we got to ask you, we ask everybody is what do you like to sport? John? And I know you're smart, be as smart with your money. You retired it twenty five. You know what you're doing, but you still spoilage every now and again. What is it that you're throwing big bucks at that most people might think is a little weird?
So spiritually I'm like a seven or eight year old boy, right, So I'm gonna say telescopes and cargo electric bicycles. So those are my two right now. I'm really into astronomy. I've got a group of astronomy bros. And we hang out on the weekends just like you know, compete over who can get the best picture of Jupiter. And it's kind of kind of funny to some people that there's like a group of like astronomy dads just like hang out and look at the stars. But it's a great
way to get perspective ha ha. You know, you see, like, oh my gosh, this nebula is like, you know, a trillion miles away, and you know, you know, like a billion earths could fit inside it, and oh maybe my problems aren't as bad. So I kind of really enjoy it for that reason. And then same kind of thing
for bicycles, Like there's all these awesome electric bikes. I like cargo ones because I can throw my kids in them and strap them down, and they're too young to bike on their own, and so it's just kind of a cool way that I can turn something that's a chore, like dropping kids off at school and make it fun, right, so I get to take them to daycare in preschool, and like the the electric cargo bike can be one of those you know, cool Harley Dads except a bicycle.
That's at least how we envision ourselves. Travis. I don't know if it's I don't know if that's how other people see us, but yeah.
You know, definitely I get some like, oh that guy, you know, I mean, I definitely there's some definitely views like that. But you know what, I feel like a Harley dad and you know another dad got one. So we're talking about getting leather. You know, jackets made, right, We're gonna make a biker gang. But it's like, you know, an electric cargo biker gang. Yeah, so it's you know, it's it's it's definitely you know, student loans, right, you know,
a weird person's attracted to doing them. So I'm just you know, showing people my honest self.
Oh R, let's talk student loans. Let's get into it, because I'm curious, first off, Travis, to think about or to understand how you're thinking about the kind of whiplash effect of approaches towards student loans. The last administration, there was this incredibly generous spirit towards people who had student loans that seems to have evaporated. Now we're encountering i don't know, almost maybe a hostile vibe. How do you think about that change and how should student loan borrowers be feeling.
So, I mean, I've done this since the A Bomba administration, right, and so I've definitely seen a lot of different attitudes
on student loans over time. I would say that what's kind of happened over time with the change in the political landscape is more and more educated voters have more drifted towards the Democratic Party, right in terms of like higher education levels predict more of a Democratic lane than it used to, right, especially if you think about like the Republican Party during like the Mitt Romne era in
twenty twelve. And so what's happened is student loans have sort of drifted from this like kind of non partisan issue to being more of a partisan issue.
Right.
So if we think about like what happened during the Biden administration, Biden was you know, sort of the choice of the Democratic Party because they didn't have an alternative they could coalesce around, right, And President Biden wanted to unify the support of the progressive base, and so he viewed student loans is like this very easy policy area to go big on and to try to go really big on to maintain that political support to run for that second term, right, and in the first term of
President Trump. You know, one thing that I would say for people that are just like really terrified about their student loans, really worried about what the administration's going to do, is it's important to have the perspective of the fact that the Trump administration was the one that started the student loan pause and paused collections on student loans in the first place. Right, So there's definitely some some negative things that are going to happen to some borrowers financially
due to the new policies of the new administration. I don't want to minimize that, but I do want to say that everybody would need to have a very balanced view of what's going to happen with student loans in the next like few years.
Right.
So I would just say, like at a high level, student un forgiveness is not dead. It's just not going to be offered on steroids anymore.
One of the changes that seems like it's going to take places transitioning student loans like towards the Small Business Administration looks like they're going to run that. It seems like a massive potential paperwork nightmare. I guess what do you foresee being some of the problems with that transition.
Well, I mean they've fired half of the Department of Education, right, And there's one person put in a court deposition that there was six they left when they got fired. There was sixteen thousand borrower complaints that were in her cue that she had not answered yet.
My gosh.
So it's basically this wasn't working fast enough, is what you're saying. Yeah, it's her fault, right, you know. But so the thing is is like, so the new administration is sort of testing the boundaries to see what the courts will say is legal and what's not legal. Right, And the way I would interpret this is they're saying they're going to move it over to small Business Administration.
I am not convinced that they can do that. The Secretary of Education is mentioned a whole lot in the statute, and they can say that they're going to move it over there. They can try to move it over there potentially with their big budget reconciliation bill, and maybe that's what they intend to do is try to pass it in Congress right to make it legal, or maybe they just plan to try to move it over there, right.
But what a borrower needs to be concerned about is what's happened since the Obama administration is presidents have and the inaction of Congress taken more and more of a policy making role in student loans by issuing executive actions.
So a lot of the things that have happened in the past several years, you know, have been the White House just making press releases about things they're just going to do, right, And what the Trump administration is doing is rolling back pretty much anything that the Biden administration did the executive action that's not written in the statute.
So what that means is if a borrower understands what kind of loans they have and what they're guaranteed benefits are in the statute of the law, the borrower can make a plan for their future. And the confusion is coming from, you know, all these things that have been promised to the executive action that don't have the safety of being a law, and borrowers just don't know how
to plan. So that's a big part of what we're doing right now is educating borrowers around what are they guaranteed, you know, with and the law, and what are they not guaranteed in the law, And then that can help somebody figure out like do I should I pay these back?
Like when? Like should I go for forgiveness? Like what should I do?
I feel like the most recent news was the op ed that was written by the Department of Education secretary, and it seemed like she issued kind of a clearly line of demarcation and that may fifth date stuck out
in my mind as a really important one. What is the fallout going to be from, you know, based on her pronouncement what she's said about the resumption of student loan payments, Like we've obviously had student loan payments are supposed to be being made right now except for some folks who are in limbo on the safe plan, right, I don't know. It gets all confusing to me, like where are we at right now? Do people need to be paying? And how worried should they be if they're not paying?
So there's all the kinds of complex issues going on with this to different types of borrower populations, right, So to craft this for your listeners, what would you guess would be the average balance of like how you know and how to money listener, would you guess like in terms of the size.
I'd say twelve thousand dollars. I would say more than that, because what the average student loan balance of the average America's upper.
Thirties, Yeah, which is like an undergrade balance.
Yeah, I would say maybe something close to that.
I'm sure it's a range, right, So I'm sure a lot of your listeners have thirty k and then I'm sure a lot of your listeners have a lot more than that. There's probably a long tail of people right that, oh, you know, high five figures, low six figures, even mid six figures. So what I would say is, you know, since the COVID pause and made in March twenty twenty, the Department of ed Is essentially turned off the vast collections apparatus of student loans and caused no consequences to
borrowers at all from not caring about them. And what does that mean? Like, before the COVID pause, something like thirteen percent of all borrowers were in default and a lot of borrowers were in forbearance, which was you know, not as damaging as a default on their record, but still meant they weren't paying anything. And so if we think about thirteen percent default rate, that roughly translates to about five million people. They would be struggling to make
payments at any given time at a baseline. And so your average person as thirty thousand of student debt, like they'd have to pay about three hundred a month on average to pay their loans off completely, right, And the Biden administration came out with a plan called the Save Plan that basically allowed most of those borrowers to pay maybe like zero to one hundred dollars a month, so
it was making their payment far more affordable. Right, So a lot of those listeners have just either not had to worry about making payments because they just completely ignored them and they weren't having their credit scores danked, or they were signing up for this Save income based payment plan and they were paying a very low percent of their income, like five percent of your income, but only
after you make the first thirty or forty thousand. That's like kind of simplifying things a little bit, but in general, that's what the formula was, and the courts are saying Hey, hold up, this Save Plan is not legal because Biden tried to cancel student debt right, tried to cancel ten to twenty thousand of all debt for all Americans, and the Supreme Court said, hey, no, no way, Jose. And then the response to that was, let's create an income
driven plan that's so generous. It's basically kind of like the same things like forgiveness light exactly. It was Plan B, right, And so they came out with Plan B and it was about to go into law in July twenty twenty four, and at the last second a bunch of Republican led
states sued and blocked it. And so since June of twenty twenty four, about eight or nine million borrowers that did sign up for the Save Plan out of the forty million or so total, have been on ice and just frozen in place, not knowing what they should do. So that's like eight or nine million people. So that's a lot of your listeners are going to be on the Save Plan for barants. They're going to know what that is, right, and they have not been allowed to
switch out of that, which is maddening. So they're saying, we're turning on all collections may in early May. But at the same token, they fired half the staff and there's nobody to process these incometerin repayment applications, and they're not allowing people that want to get out of this paused frozen payment situation to get onto something. So are
those people going to be hurt negatively? I don't think so by and large because Department of Ed knows that these people haven't been allowed out of this forbearance, and so those folks are going to have more time than early May. There are people, though, that have not made payments for years, that have been in default like before COVID even, and they are going to start having their wages garnish, their benefits garnished, and their tax refunds garnished.
So probably the single biggest impact for folks who are more you know, economically disadvantaged or vulnerable is going to be those tax refund intercepts. So that is not going to happen this year because most of those refunds have already gone out. But what often happens is people kind of really especially lower income Americans, depend upon those you know, two three four thousand dollars tax refunds to be able
to pay their bills. Right, So next tax season when people go in file in like February March, we've had years worth of you know, not collecting you know, intercepts and wage garnishments and things like that, and that's going to get turned on in May, and so people will notice it right away. I mean, people that have not paid attention to their loans for years are going to start having their wages sapped at like fifteen percent of income on average. So it's it's definitely not going to
be good. But I would say that there's a baseline of thirteen percent of people being in default even before COVID, right, so the measuring how bad will it be, I think you probably need to look at like that baseline to say, you know, if it's five million people, that's kind of a normal environment for student and default collections, and if it's way more than that, which actually I think it will be way more than that once all of the
protections end. Because you do have people who are not certified on a current income for their tax returns and people that are in this eight million people that are in this forbearance. It's not actually a default yet, but it will be when they have to get told to go get on a payment plan, So it could be I think it could be ten to fifteen million people that will end up in default, which will be really, really bad.
We're kind of transitioning from talking about the policy to kind of like as practical steps that folks can take, and when folks aren't able to make these payments, I mean, they're going to see damage done to let's say their credit score. Do you have any recommendations for folks when it comes to just practical steps that they can take when they aren't able to afford making these payments as they do resume?
Absolutely so, I mean I think the first thing is to figure out what are you eligible for? I remember I said what is in the statute versus what's an executive action? So are you a new borrower as of
July twenty fourteen? In other words, did you have an existing student on balance, you know, on July twenty fourteen or before, and if you did, the thing you're eligible for in the law is something called old income based your payment that's fifteen percent of your income and you get one hundred and fifty percent of the poverty line to earn money on before they take that fifteen percent. So for most people, it's about twenty grand for a
family of one. For a family, you know, a four, maybe it's more like forty grand, And so they let you earn that much first before they take fifteen percent. But everything above that they're going to take fifteen percent. And within that there's ways that you can pay less. Right So, if you're a married borrower and you, you know, are the only person in your household loans, a lot of people are going to need to look at changing
have they fight all their taxes. So people tend to file their taxes joint because that's just the default that most married couples do a lot of married couples could switch to married filing separate instead, and they could drastically lower their student loan payments because then it's fifteen percent of just their income instead of everybody's income.
Was it that a blip though, too, like a week or two ago where there was something issued about Mary filing jointly and hey, if you file separately, we're still going to treat you the same way. But then they had to redact that.
Yes, so I, along with some other people brought this to the attention publicly of a lot of people urgently because it was a major, major deal if they were going to interpret things this way. The reason is is, if you know what the statute says, which after ten years of doing this, we do, it says in the law that married borrowers do have the right to file separate and exclude their spousal income.
So it's in the law.
It's not an executive action. But when one of the acting Undersecretary of Education made pronouncement and a reply to a lawsuit, it came out of nowhere. And because in the same reply they affirmed something called the ps left Buyback Program, which is a Biden error program that's kind of generous to borrowers. So it made no sense that they're ignoring, you know, a major part of the student loan statutes while also affirming something that's in executive action.
So I raised that issue on X and other places and said, what gives here right? And it turns out, guys, that they just literally made an honest mistake, which is which is which is? And the reason why we know this is because within literally two or three days, they came out with a corrective statement saying what we meant to say was that we will include your spouse and your family size no matter how you file your taxes, not that we would include your spouse's income and your
payment calculation regardless of how you file your taxes. So that's actually a positive for borrowers because instead of a deduction based on a poverty line of three if you're married with two kids, now you get a deduction based on a family size of four. And you know, the bidenmdministration had actually changed the rules in a negative way to exclude your spouse from your family size if he filed separately.
And that's like an additional child tax credit.
It is.
And the reason is because that's how the REGs were pre COVID, and that's because the court struck down or you know, is put on ice the save plan rule, that income based plan that Biden did. He also put in a ton of changes to regulations around IDR plans, and the courts don't want to full with figure out what they're going to pause and not pause, so they
just pause the whole thing. And in some kind of hilarious ways, it's actually positive benefit to some borrowers because some of those rules from pre COVID were actually better than the ones that the Biden administration came out with. Interesting, So you know, so the thing is is, like, the ability to file separate is affirmed actually, which is great news. And most borrowers that listen to this, especially if they're younger, will have taken out their first student loan as of
July twenty fourteen or after. And what that means is you actually qualify to pay ten percent of your income instead of fifteen. And if you're in the private sector, it's years tell forgiveness instead of twenty five. And that's written into the statute. So might we see some major legislation come out of Congress soon from the House Republicans and Senate Republicans that might try to modify some of that. It is possible, but it's also likely that they would
grandfather and existing borrowers under current law. And even if they did make changes, those changes would probably be temporary in nature because of the legislative maneuver they're going to have to use to pass their bill for you know, with the limited majorities they have. So you know, I would say that I would say this, here's a quick kind of like way that a borrower can get a handle on their situation. Right, If you have less debt than what you earn every year, you probably need to
pay it back. And there's a lot of flexibility you have in terms of how much you can pay. You can get on an extended or graduated plan. If you can't afford to pay the standard plan, you can consolidate your loans with the government and put them on a longer term repayment plan you know, amortization schedule. But you probably do need to pay it back. If you have two times what you earn every year or more, so you have debt that's twice your income or more, you
need to go for forgiveness. The only question is is how and you can optimize that and do a better job of paying a lot less. And if you're somewhere in between, if you're one to two times debt of what you make every year, then the answer to what should you do with your loans is it depends and you need to kind of have a careful analysis of you know, what are your goals, what are your dreams?
You know, what are you willing to do to you know, in terms of sacrifices to make to pay off loans versus not payoff loans, and you can still do a bunch of stuff to lower your payments.
So most people's.
Payments are not low as low as they qualify for because they're not taking advantage of all the loopholes that exist.
Sure, yeah, and being able to take advantage of those loopholes depends on understanding and knowing what the law is. And like you pointed out, that's it seems like there are more mistakes that are being made these days where stuff's just kind of getting tossed out there. But I don't know, at least there was a corrective statement.
Yeah, positive, you know, look glass half all right.
Yeah, little silver lining to the shakeup.
And I love how you're getting to more of these practical tips and pieces of advice, Travis. We're going to get some more of that, including whether, just I guess, the likelihood of whether someone should even consider discharging student loans through something like bankruptcy, how that's changed.
We'll get to that and more. Right after this. We're back still talking with Travis Hornsby, talking about student loans and the shakeup that's happening in the first you know, six months of the Trump administration and how that impacts you as someone who has student loans. One of the things traves that happened during under the Biden administration was
essentially looser rules about discharging student loans through bankruptcy. And for as long as I've been alive and been thinking about these things, student loans through bankruptcy, like getting them discharged was impossible. And then the Biden administration said, hey, we we want to make it a little bit easier
for people to pull that off. They had to be able to prove what basically that they were unable to pay these student loans back student loans back, and then they wouldn't be able to How has that changed in the first four months of the Trump administration? Can people still Is that still a way that people can get rid of their student loans altogether?
Generally speaking, No, it's very difficult to get your student loans discharged in bankruptcy. I would like to give kind of a quick rule for people to think about student loans, like studenton policy tends to get driven by terrible and
horrific headlines. So let me give you an example of this. Right, So, in the first Trump administration, there was a headline that a Michigan man who was a combat veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan suffered a traumatic brain injury when ied exploded, and had a couple hundred thousand of student loans right from a graduate degree that he did pre you know,
combat tours. The balance was considered taxable income as a result of his disability discharge, and so the IRS and the State of Michigan sent him a nearly six figure tax bill for his forgiven student loans. This is a guy who served our country literally suffered a brain injury, and they gave him a huge tax bill. And what the Trump administration did and the Tax Cuts and Jobs
Act is made discharge due to disability tax free. When I say that, I don't say that to say that the Trump administration is going to be super generous to people and change bankruptcy laws in a way that most borrowers would really get excited about.
Right.
What I'm saying, though, is if you have ten to fifteen million people going to student un default like could happen right like we're talking about on this show. If that were to happen, the headlines would be so horrific. The problems in the housing market in other economic markets would be so bad that they would have to confront
what do we do with student un default? Because right now they made the rules based off of this like undoe hardship standard, which is extremely difficult standard to meet to actually get your loans discharged. And most people they think, well, if I just stopped making payments, that'll go away. So that doesn't happen, because what happens when we have collections turned on, which we're going to have that in early May, is the government just takes fifteen percent of your income anyway.
And so what I tell people that are you know, don't want to make student loan payments, are struggling to is, hey, you might be able to pay ten percent instead of fifteen percent of your income if you qualify for new IBr for example, and you won't.
Wreck your credit.
Because if the government's going to take fifteen percent through wage garnishments and tax refunds, they are going to get their money, right, There's no doubt they're going to get their money, So you might as well give them less by voluntarily turning it over instead of involuntarily turning over
and also wrecking your credit. So for bankruptcy, the only scenarios I think where bankruptcy is something that could be considered is maybe on private student loans, but only with the assistance of, you know, a very educated student, own attorney that understands the consumer laws in your state, because they're all different on things like statute of limitations and burden a proof and things like that.
Yeah, I guess on that note, what other factors should folks consider if they're like, Okay, maybe you know, maybe now's a good time to refinance out of a federal student loan. Maybe I should consider private student loans. What are some other wellan considerations there?
You know, the Trump administration here is not going to last forever, right jokes on SNL aside, right, Like, he will be done after the second term. And the question is will a Republican win in twenty twenty eight or will a Democrat win in twenty twenty eight? What I would bet is if a Democratic wins in twenty twenty eight, the federal student loan benefits are going to increase, and if Republican wins, they will stay the same or decrease. Right,
That's generally a good bet. And so if you are what I would call a marginal refinancing candidate, Like, you have five and a half percent federal loans and you might get a five percent from refinancing. You know what, federal protections are worth something, and so if you're only benefiting by like half a percent lower rate, it might be kind of a good idea to kind of just
keep it federal, make your minimum payments. You know, see what happens the next three years or so three and a half years, right, and then if you are just a slam dunk refinancing case, what is that? First off, a lot of people are getting zero percent interest in the same plan for bearance, and you want to benefit on that until you you're completely done with that, Right, So if you're getting zero percent, get all your zero percent you possibly can. Yeah, And when that ends, you'll
have a decision to make. And the decision might be depending on when you borrow your loans, because the interest rates of the loans are all different depending on what year you borrowed. So if you borrowed and your interest rate is like eight or nine percent and you can get five percent the private market. Remember that test I said earlier of do you earn more money than you have in student loans. So if you have you one hundred thousand of income, you have fifty thousand of student loans.
Which you could do is do a selective refinancing. You could say, Okay, anything above a five percent I'm going to convert that to a private loan or a lower interest rate, and anything that's you know, three to five, I'm just going to keep it on the federal market. So people have a lot of choices in how they
tackle this, right, they could refinance the whole thing. They could do it with a federal government, which doesn't change the interest rate, but it does change some of the terms sometimes in your favor, right, like things like stretching out the payment terms. So, for example, if you have over sixty thousand in federal suit of loans, if you quote unquote refinance with the government, then your payment required payment goes from like a ten year schedule to a
thirty year schedule. And so that could be really beneficial for somebody who has a bunch of credit card debt who's struggling to make their payments and they can't make the ten year payment, Well, what if you can convert a tenure payment to a thirty year payment schedule? You'll have to pay a lot less and you'll get more breathing room. Right, So there's all kinds of levers that you can pull, and the key thing is just to know what, when do you pull which lever and why?
Yeah, I've heard, I've heard you also make the suggestion that people think about changing jobs or taking a work break in order to reduce that student loan payment, bring the payment down. I guess maybe it's not. It's easier said than none for a lot of people who are like, I need a paycheck, Travis, but thank you. So how do you think some people, though, can implement that strategy in order to reduce their student loan payments? And when might that be worth it? Well?
I mean, so, for example, you do not have to report when your payment where your income goes up except at like regularly scheduled intervals. So they're going to tell you, hey, it's time to recertify your income, so we can calculate your income based payment of what you should pay every month on your loans. Right, But what they do allow you to do is if your income goes down, you can request an early recertification at Student ad dut Gov slash IDR And I'll give you an example of this.
We had a client who was on a maternity leave and the first six weeks were paid and then the other six weeks were unpaid. And during those latter six weeks, she was not getting a taxable income. So what I suggested to her is go to student ad dut gov slash idr and click on recalculate my payment and state the truth, which is that at the moment she did that, she did not have a taxable income that was coming in right during the six weeks window that she did
not have a taxable income coming in. That was a true statement, and so she was able to re calculate her payment to a much lower number. So, if you're in between jobs for a couple months, if you are doing a a sabbatical from your job, if you're doing what I did when I was in my twenties, traveling the world, taking a break from where, it is within your rights to go to your student loan website student a dut gov slash IDR and get your payment recalculated to a much much lower number.
How long does it last? Like so she goes back to work and then her payment doesn't go up, right, when she goes back day one.
Right, we all it depends the keys.
What TRAVI said, you said regular intervals. What are those intervals?
Yeah, it depends on the person. So what happens is most people when they graduate, graduate in the spring, and you have a six month grace period if you don't do anything otherwise. So most people, if they do nothing, are going into a like they graduate in June. Six months after that is like November December, that's when they get their first payment due. And so for that person, their recertification date for their income based payment plan is
going to be November December every year at the same time. Right, So if she's on this maternity leave, she might get you know, the point at which she recalculated her payment until her next recertification date with low payments, and then you know what would happen is when she goes to recalculate her new payment, she could do is to say, well, you know, is my current income lower or higher than
my last tax return. If it's higher than my last tax return, then she wants to use her last tax return to recertify her income at her next recertification date when she has to report her income for calculating her IBr payment. Right, So for example, let's say you know, she's making one hundred twenty K a year, you know, and let's say she has to recertify every year in
December or something. So if she has this you know, unpaid maternity leave, she recalculates her payment to basically zero, and then her next you know, let's say her next recertification date, she's back to making one hundred and twenty K year. Well, since she had a maternity leave or she was making nothing, maybe her prior year tax atturn is showing one hundred K of income, so she'd rather use that to recertify her income instead because it's going
to give her a lower payment. So that's kind of that's kind of what I mean about just knowing what are you allowed to do based off of the rules and the laws. And you know, that's why most people pay too much, is because they're not taking advantage of what they're able to do legally.
Sure, I think some folks might have call them like loopholes, but no, it's this is just truly what the law states. And so to put a fine point on it, it is an annual recertification because I thought I saw something about enrollments in these IBr plans not requiring recertification every single year.
We also they have pushed out recertification dates every few months four years. So it's one thing we talk about the turning on the payments and collections aspect of student loans. Again, the Trump administration, not the Biden administration, has just pushed out IDR recertification dates to know earlier than February twenty
twenty six. So the Biden administration started doing this by pushing out IDR recertification dates basically every few months because they wanted payments to be low, especially before key election dates.
And they also didn't have the capacity in the services to recalculate what people even owed, which is that's kind of terrible, isn't it, Like in terms of just, you know, an embarrassing operational failure that the servicers cannot even calculate what people owe because they don't have the staff, they don't have the rules given to them by department.
Event you don't have the infrastructure in place to be able to handle exactly figuring out what the new payments are going to be.
And so even the Trump administration which is making this big public spectacle of you know, we're going to make people pay what they owe. Well, they have pushed off recertification. I've seen some borrowers with a required recertification date of January twenty twenty seven. And these are people in some cases who last recertified their income where their twenty eighteen tax return in twenty nineteen, and then COVID happened in March twenty twenty, and then people got paused on their
requirement certify. So I'm not I don't want to get like in trouble sharing too much here, but we have people making six figures that are perfectly willing to pay, you know, two thousand a month, and their student loans that they're supposed to that are getting credit for forgiveness programs but are still paying based off of when they
just graduated. They're paying two hundred dollars a month, right, So, and the Trump administration is saying we don't mind extending those two hundred dollars a month payments to January twenty twenty seven for some people. So this is like, yeah, it's crazy.
From a personal finance standpoint, I'm curious, like, what are you telling clients who come to you because hey, right now the getting has been good, you've had payments deferred or you have had an artificially low payment, and are you suggesting bulk up those reserves because this might not last forever. How do you help people think about the fact that payments could go and they already are going up for some people, uh and to be prepared for that. While maybe you have a pretty solid deal right.
Now, Well, I mean I think that, you know, people have different level of economic security, and I just want to kind of acknowledge that, right, like so uh so, for example, if if my taxes go way up, right, I'm gonna I'm gonna, you know, make a comment hashtag check my privilege here, right, But you know, if taxes go way up, maybe maybe I'm cool with my one thousand dollars telescope for a while, do you know what I mean?
Upgrading quite yet?
Maybe maybe I'm putting off the fully loaded you know, like you know, computer tracking the comments or whatever. You know what I mean, like so, so and and so, maybe for like a middle class person, this might mean, you know, cay, I'm gonna drive my camera for a while before upgrading to the newer model, right, or something
like that. Now for people at the lower end of the economic spectrum, they don't have those those privileges, right, And so the good news is if somebody knows their rights under the student on rules, if you truly are making not a lot of income, you should be able to qualify for a zero dollar payment like or very close to it, because you just have to get onto
the income based or payment plan. And so many people don't even know that they could benefit from that, Like, so many people don't still do not know that they can sign up for that. Like, you know, eight million or nine million people sign up for the Save plan. The awkward truth about that though, is actually maybe like twenty million people could have benefited from it, but only eight or nine million people signed up, right, So you're
more economically struggling folks. The government cannot auto enroll people into IBr they're not allowed to.
So maybe all those people were clairvoyant and they knew that it wasn't going to last. I don't know, maybe that's what it was. Yeah, but I think a lot of it as people like to. I mean, money is very stressful, particularly for people who are who do not have access to the same income that middle and upper middle income families have right, and so a lot of people just take the maybe if ignore it'll go away approach.
And the problem with that thinking is it's absolutely not true because the government can seize your wages and tax refunds.
Again, i've heard you mention the term partial financial hardship. Is that something that folks should Is that what you're talking about here or is that like a completely different term.
Well, partial financial hardship doesn't mean what it sounds like, so Parkay, partial financial hardship sounds like you're struggling. In reality, what it is is do you have a payment that's
lower than the standard tenure for your loan amount. So, for example, somebody could have a forty thousand dollars income in twenty thousand dollars of steat of loans and not have a partial financial hardship because their payment calculated on the income based your payment plan is higher than what they'd have to pay if they paid two hundred dollars a month to pay their twenty k off in ten years. So that person with forty forty k income twenty k
of loans might not have a partial financial hardship. Meanwhile, you know a doctor who has four hundred thousand of steel loans with two hundred thousand of income might have have a partial financial hardship because their income based your payment is lower than four thousand a month, which is what they would have to pay to pay it off in ten years.
Right.
So what that means is is that you know, in general, what I said about the greater than two times your income and debt, you know, basically all those people should go for forgiveness. Like if you're not going for forgiveness, you're probably just hurting yourself financially. And what I said during the Biden administration is is basically, if you have more debt than your income at all, like if your debt to income ratio is more than one to one,
you should go for forgiveness. During the Biden administration, you know, the problem is is with the less generous rules the Trump administration is rolling out. Forgiveness is still very much a thing, but it's not as a thing for as many people, which is why I'm saying, well, now it's really more like two to one debt to income ratio, go for forgiveness. And if you're in this one to two times, you know your your income in debt student debt.
Then then it's a it depends, right, It depends on your plans for your career, your family goals, your your expected income growth, right, your your risk tolerance for you know, do you want to wait it out a little bit to see what happens policy wise? And you know, for people who have less student debt than their income, there's still strategies, there's still approaches to pay less, there's still
ways to have a better situation. You know, some people even could still benefit from forgiveness if you're very low income and that ratio applies to you. But you know it just you know, it depends, is the mushy mouthed answer.
Yeah, no, no, but that's really helpful kind of lines of demarcation there. I'm curious too, your you've talked about the clawing back of forgiveness. People who have gotten forgiveness, they're not going to get unforgiven, right, and that that would be illegal. But are you worried about the PSLF program and maybe some sort of rug pull. I know people who are in that and who are let's say
seven eight years along, and they're worried. They're like, is something going to happen before I get to that point where forgiveness is real each cause, like I'm pop committed at this point.
Well, I mean I like to think in terms of probabilities. Right, I was an econ in stats. Major makes me weird, but you know that's what I like to think of in terms of giving people advice, because there's probabilities that are fifty to fifty and there's ones that are like ten percent chance.
Right.
And so with PS LEFT, the biggest drug pull that can happen is there's a bill right now in the House to take away nonprofit status from hospitals and make them for profits. So that would be a way that you could take away PS LEFT through a back door for at least half the people that currently qualify for it, right, And should you be worried about that? Like, what I would tell people that are in that boat is no. And the reason is it has to pass not just
the House but also the Senate. And if you look at the Senate, there are basically four Republicans swing votes right now. In my mind, there's Murkowski and Collins in Alaska and Maine. There's Mitch McConnell, who's been voting against administration and a lot of things now that he's not the Republican leader, and there's Tom Tillis in North Carolina
and he's kind of like the wing votes. So if you think about somebody like him, I live in North Carolina, imagine Douke and you and see going from not for profit to for profit and them having to do a bunch of layoffs, and he's got a competitive reelection at twenty twenty six. Is he going to vote for that?
I would bet not. I would bet that the Senate modifies and makes less aggressive a lot of the House GOP's proposals for things like this, and I would not worry about that until we actually see the text of the bill move along and pass you know, a committee
for example. So I think that people are really worried about what the House and Senat are going to do because they do have unified control of DC, right, and they will pass some kind of big bill that's gonna have a lot of stuff in it because they have to because the Trump tax cuts expire at the end of twenty twenty five. So that is a guarantee that you will see a bill and there will be something
related to student loans in it. The question is is how much will be in it and how much will borrowers have to worry about when they find, you know, when the text has battled over and finally published.
Could you see a situation where it's at least for looking and a lot of folks get to get grandfathered into the previous PSLF or I'm sorry, with a hospital nonprofit designation.
I think that it will be and I think that you know that the people the only people that have to worry about forgiveness being clawed back is people that were not actually eligible for it. And I know that might sound ridiculous, but what I mean by that is there are there's no auditing a PSLF really at all, and so there are some employers that have been approved for PSLF that I know, based on the rules, do
not qualify. And I've seen borrowers that have been mistakenly given credit for years of payments that should not.
Say there's no cop on the beat.
There's none, no zero. So like a lot of there's a lot of scams, there's a lot of fraudulent activity going on there. And you know, if somebody, in my opinion, for example, goes and starts a fake nonprofit and has been approved for you know, ps LEF based on starting a fake nonprofit. If they get approved and forgiven, like
it might work out. It's kind of like lying on your taxes, right Like if you say you know, I'd made no income and like they never audit, you got away with it, right And if there's very little auditing that's happening at the IRS, then maybe maybe some people decided, well that's worth taking the chance on.
Right.
We don't give that type of advice. We say what are the rules, what are the things you can do within the rules? And you know, I would not be shocked. I tell people, I would not be shocked if we did see some kind of like you know, Operation Varsity Blues right where they went after the famous actors, right like the ones on Desperate Housewives whatever, right that we're getting their kids in for water polo to like fancy schools.
Su I think that you might see something like people that's like going after the very worst offenses for student
loan like stuff. Right Like for example, there was a case pre pandemic where there was a group that was telling borrowers to list of family size of ninety three, so that they would have such a large family size they'd qualify for a zero dollar payment and like, and the funny thing is they put out a report like February twenty twenty saying, like, hey, maybe someone a department of edge should ask is it possible to have a family size of ninety three in the if you're a rabbit,
you know, only like on the online form, And then of course COVID happened a month later, nobody ever followed
up on it. So I mean, I think that there will be a little bit of like a return of like, what are the craziest things about the studolone system that probably shouldn't be the case the way they are, and like, you know, and frankly, like even the Daily Podcast had this recent episode on you know, his student on forgetting his dad, and they even talked about, you know, maybe we shouldn't have unlimited student on borrowing, right, Like maybe a student on borrowing should not be unlimited that you
can take out like eight hundred thousand for school across like five children with no limit on your borrowing, which is currently the rule. Right, if you want to send six kids to the most expensive private schools in the country, you can take out a million dollars of parent plus loans currently and there's no limit on that.
All right, I want to ask you more about that and about incentives of student loans moving forward and kind of how that impacts the universities as well. We'll get to some questions on that with Travis right after this. We're back from the.
Break again, speaking with Travis Hornsby about student loans, what it is folks should be doing now that they have them. Actually, so let's turn the tables a little bit. Travis, what about folks who don't have student loans yet? Because you released this list of the careers where folks tend to incur the most student loan debts, and Orthodontis turns out
they have it the worst. How do you think about the trade off of taking on massive amounts of student loan debt versus the potential for higher paid down the road.
Well, I remember, like one of the Orthodonts cases that I talked about with the Wall Street Journal back in the day. They did a story on like one of the first borrowers to pass the million dollars of student loans, Mark Oh, And that was like I think twenty eighteen,
twenty nineteen. And that's because the borrowing is unlimited, right, And so if you're not yet in a program, what I would be laser focused on is what does Congress put out for their bill this summer or early fall for the Reconciliation bill, which is going to pass in
a party line vote. And what that bill will say is it will either say like, as of a certain date, loans are capped and you can't borrow more than next amount, or it might not make any changes, or it might say if you're enrolled in a program as of a certain date, you get to borrow whatever you need to
finish the program. Right. And so if I was somebody that's looking at a graduate degree program, I would make really sure that I looked at what that bill says, because it might make the difference of you being able to finish your medical school, dental school program or not.
Right.
And so pay attention to what Congress does this summer and fall to see what changes they make to the studento on system. But by and large, I would say, under the current studo in system, you should always go get another degree, another you know, educational pursuit. If you don't mind a ten percent income tax. And what I mean by that is, let's say that you know, it's it's a struggle to get a job initially, like is it worth it or not? Well, income driven repayment is
basically a ten percent income tax. There's more complexity to it than that, but you're losing ten percent of your income to pay back the government for like twenty years on average. You know, people doing the public service thing, it's ten years, some people it's twenty five. But you know, ten to twenty five years, you're losing ten percent of your income.
So what I like to tell.
People is, Okay, if you stop at being a nurse and you're making sixty K a year and you have zero debt, are you better or worse off than if you go get you know, a nurse practitioner job and you're making one hundred and twenty a k a year, but you're losing ten percent of your income to an income based your payment plan. We'll take away ten percent of one hundred and twenty grand and you're still making
just over six figures. And so that income gap is worth it, you know, compared to sticking to just your bachelor's degree. So in general, get your bachelor's degree if you can, and if you want to go to a graduate program, I would just suggest that it be a valuable program of some kind where you're going to make at least ten percent more than you would make if
you just stopped at your current educational level. And even if you wouldn't make that earnings gap, if you would enjoy that job a lot more than what's your current doing, it's still worth doing under the current rules. And so I would just think that if the rules change or there's more caps unborrowing and people actually have to think, well, what if I actually had to pay this back directly, then the math would change. But the math doesn't change until the rules change.
How do you think the like the government's approach to student loans, to the federal student loan program will change the future of universities, how they price their education and how much borrowers are willing to take on, like if the program becomes less generous, right as interest rates have already gone up of course since when I was in
school and since five years ago. So when people have to make those trade offs, when they're thinking through, well, how much debt should I take on even though I can essentially take on ridiculous amounts. Are we going to have just better incentives in place that will actually produce some secondary benefits like reducing the cost of education overall? Do you see that in the future.
Well, so the problem there's the dirty little secret and hire that a lot of the big name schools that have very popular football teams earn a lot of money from the parent plus loan program right now. And so any big school with a big football program that has a lot of out of state students, what they'll often do is go market like maybe for example, like a University of Alabama might go market in Illinois to get them to come down and pay out of state tuition.
Maybe those families don't have the money to just cut the twenty five k year whatever it is to go, and so those families might load up on parent plus loans because they're unlimited, and then the university's making a bunch of extra money compared to what they make on in state students, right And so there's this big incentive currently for the schools to bring in all these out
of state students. And you know how parent plus loans be the thing they offer to people, and the schools are able to spend more money in a lot of different things because of that, right, like faculty, bigger stadiums, and il deals whatever.
Right, And the parents just don't know how big of an albatross it's going to be around their neck for decades to come, exactly, and so and so there's been some loopholes too to manage that problem for parents as well, So like parents that have lots of parent plus owns, because you know, up till now, there's been a lot of strategies you can do. But that's kind of an aside. The issue with university is the big name universities are going to be fine. They're just going to have to
make cuts. So maybe you have to cut back on some faculty and some programs. Maybe you can't do, you know, the athletic expansion you planned on doing if they were to lose access to.
The parent plus loan program.
Now, there's other schools that are more kind of like marginal schools that might not have the big football name brand, right, that are more just maybe they're serving a lot more just like middle class families. It maybe more regional schools. Some of those schools would absolutely have to close if
they capt loans. It's just the reality a lot of these schools are in swing districts in swing states, and so the question is is a lot of these proposals, you know, makes sense on paper until you think about, well, what does it mean if you close down a bunch of regional schools in Pennsylvania? How popular are you going to be in the next presidential election in some of
these swing districts? Right, So I think that from a political standpoint, there's there's some checks on what they're going to be able to do in terms of changes to the system. But you know, I mean, if you think about it just a common sense, it probably does not make sense to let universities charge whatever the heck they want for higher ed Like that's probably a really dumb idea. Like that changed in two thousand and six, and they did it to try to expand access. But the problem
is they made it a blank check. They just said, hey, universities, go do whatever you want. There's no limits on what you can borrow for graduate programs. You could just charge whatever you want. And so what happened is the number of pharmacy schools, for example, more than tripled.
Wow.
So within literally like a few years you had triple the number of pharmacy schools. So pharmacy school went from a thing that was like a thirty five percent acceptance right to like a ninety five percent acceptance rate. And so a lot of incomes and graduate programs have actually like been very flat or even declined. And there's a big oversupply because the universities just thought, oh, look a great new revenue source, so we can just go open
another school. Right, So there probably is a big contraction in the number of graduate programs and the number of universities that needs to happen just in terms of like a balancing. But the problem is is that also means real pain, like people will lose their jobs, like you know, And so that's just a question of do you want to take that pain? You know, how much pain do you want to cause? Do you want to make it a little bit softer by having the loan limits be
a lot higher. Do you want to increase pelgrants so lower income students can still attend university. So there's all kinds of policy trade offs that and that's why the easier decision is just let's go punt the football, right, Well, you don't know what to do. Let's just yeah, income recertification in twenty twenty seven, how about that, you know exactly, So that's what's been happening, and that they must.
Do the same thing with Social Security too, Travis, why not?
No, I mean that's but that's the easier thing to do. And so politicians, you know, in my experience of student loans, always choose the easier thing to do unless they're forced to make a change, Like you get the headline of the you know, Afghanistan veteran with the traumatic brain injury, they got the six figure tax bill, and then they say, oh, you know, maybe we need to change the laws, maybe these dumb laws. But it takes that kind of, you know, level of an event to make a change.
I'm surprised at the amount of politics that has gone into our conversation today, given the fact that we're talking about students loans, so to that note, and the fact that it does seem like politicians are punning the ball. Do you see a world where it makes sense for the federal government to get out of backing student loans.
I mean, like that this all started with our desire to what back in the sixties to compete with like Russia and the space race and all that, and shoring up the ability for the US to be competitive from that standpoint, But like, are we past that? Does it make sense to open this up more up to the to the to the free markets as opposed to the government, which tends to react more slowly to some of the changes that need to happen.
Well, a lot of people are asking that question, and the policy problem to that is how do you extract the government from one point six trillion dollars? So that's that's a really big problem, right, Like do you just have an auction and you just sell all the loans? Well, a lot of these benefits of those loans have already been promised, like income based repayment. Does a you know, a you know a JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs want
to take on a bunch of what that? Yeah, people can pay ten percent of their income and never pay the balance off. So, you know, there's all kinds of problems with how do you get egg is that the existing you know, commitment that's been made, And then the other problem is, like you know, for the future if you do you know, the old system was essentially like the government would kind of cover the losses on the loan portfolio, and private lenders would make the loans and make the interest income.
And that system.
Worked like okay for a while, but then they decided, well, we want to expand access, and so pendulum and politics swings, right. So I think we're in the in the zone of like the pendulum swinging more towards Hey, let's do less, let's do fewer loans, let's make it, you know, more
on the borrower to pay them back. And you know, I think that the devils and the details of student huns though, like you know, it's real easy to say, hey, get get the government of the student loan business, but there are so many problems that the government would have to figure It would be almost like saying, let's get the government.
Of Social Security. Well, oops, how do you do that? You know what I mean?
Yeah, no, for sure, Travis, this has been super helpful. I think a lot of our listeners are going to get a lot of value from this conversation. Thank you for joining us and your videos. By the way, your video updates have been incredibly helpful to I've been following them as I'm trying to kind of figure out what's going on with student loans in the day to day, which is kind of sad that we have to be
pay attention to it that much. But how how can how do money listeners find out more about you and what you're up to?
Well, I mean, I actually the best way is to get the discount for how to Money listeners if they if they need a custom plan, and I would say this is probably more in the you know, you owe maybe over fifty thousand dollars or US maybe even six figures if that's you. If you go to student Loan Planner dot com slash how to Money, so that's going to get you a discount and one hundred dollars off a custom supit loan plan if you think you need that right now? Who needs that? You know you have
a lot of studilong confusion. You have a significant balance. Generally speaking, probably ninety percent of the time we're going to save a sort of projected mid five figure balance for the average client, which is about a two hundred k average balance. So for a few hundred dollars, the high likelihood will save that much money is generally really
worth it. You can, you know, check our reviews by looking at Student one planner reviews and Google and see that we really do have a huge impact on people's lives.
And then if you cannot if some of the listeners says, you know, that's great, I cannot afford, you know, a few hundred dollars even with the one hundred dollars off how to Money listener discount, then just like the student one Painter podcast, we have a free podcast where we answer a lot of people's questions and go over like what people need to know, and so that's the free way. And then of course our student old painter dot com
website's got a lot of free content too. So but you know, if they want they want one hundred dollars how to Money discount, it's just again student one pointer dot com slash how to Money.
That's right, man.
Yeah, we're trying to help folks to avoid that student loan confusion, and y'all are doing that on all the fronts. Travis Hornsby, thank you so much for joining us today.
Thanks for having me all right, Matt, great convo with Travis. I can't say that I'm enthusiastic about the state of student loans these days, but I'm less worried after talking to him.
It makes total sense. The more, the more you know in the star is streaking across the sky, you see it that, of course Travis would be able to see because he's got the right tele that's good right to be able to It's a good point. And the more that, yeah, there's more control that we have in our hands than I guess I was under the impression. I will say I was disenheartened that so much of the future of US student loans comes down to who's going to be
in the White House. And so my big takeaway is going to be, we just need to figure out who's going to be elected to office, and then you'll know what to do in four years exactly what's so hard.
About about doing that?
No?
Okay, so I think American politics so easy to producere Yeah, No, I do think my big takeaway is going to be to consider re certifying your income, in particular if you are on an income based UH student Loan Repayment plan. Because the and he mentioned this u r L a couple of times, I'm going to do it again because I think it sounds like a fantastic resource student A dot go for slash i d R. The i DR stands for income driven repayment and.
As this is especially true if you've.
Seen your income drop recently, the ability you're not you're not fibbing, You're you're telling the truth. Your income has gone down and your repayment should reflect that. And I've got a feel and there are fewer folks doing that, or is it it's something that's kind of it's it's automated, right, Like it's automatic. It's they're not really thinking about it. They're like, oh, I've done that before, but no, this is something you can revisit. It's almost like reshopping your
insurance rates that your insurance coverage. The ability to do that and save money every single month, especially if you've seen your income go down, I think is a fantastic takeaway for folks who might maybe they're even like overwhelmed with everything that we talked through with Travis, and they're like, Okay, well that's at least one thing that I.
Can do one hundred percent. Yeah, even the maternity leave thing. I was like, oh, wait, you can, yep do that if that and apparently, according to the rules, you can, which I think is heartening. There's a lot of situations that where that could apply, I think to somebody whose income has gone down or gone away for a little bit. But how about how about for you? Is a big takeaway.
I really liked kind of how he talked about the pros and cons of getting a secondary degree and how to think about the financial consequence essentially as like a flat ten percent tax on your income. And I think I can be just a really easy then back of envelope math to figure out, well, is it going to be worth it taking this dead into my life or not?
Like how much more am I going to make? And then when I take the ten percent off of that increase, well, is god is it worth the time, the energy and is the joy I'm going to get from switching careers going to be worth all the effort that it takes and the debt that I've got to take on my back. So I think that's just at least when when we have a lot of listeners who are kind of in that period in their lives, like do I change careers and if so, how do I think through the financial consequences?
Do I go get that MBA and do I get student loans for that or do I take on some special graduate degree.
That's a that's like a simple math equation that can I think at least at least be helpful as you're kind of trying to figure that out. Berts, Yeah, especially.
If you are looking to take on additional debt. But the beer Joel that you and I enjoyed during this episode, and this is one of those Burial beers. So it's got the long name and it reads only calling hours pull me back to these Midwestern roots.
It's kind of hard to read. I'm pretty sure that's what it says. This is a West Coast style IPA by Burial collab with Hot Butcher. What do you think two of the greatest breweries in the world at this moment? I would say so. And this beer reflected that it was so good. This to me didn't feel like a traditional West Coast It was like juicier, less abrasive than a lot of them are. And that's what I would expect from these two guys trying to create a West
Coast together. It's like, so good, it's a West Coast, it's up my alley.
It's not a West coastal it's a Midwest Coast just like the there's a coast on the in the Midwest. Match is like the less we're talking about, like the shores of like Michigan. Yeah, Michigan's where it's out man also home to many fantastic breweries. But yeah, this was amazing and I'm going to shout out the label too, because I've never seen It's funny.
So before we hit record, you said all kind of looks like.
A bony their album cover, and I guess the snow is that what you were thinking of?
For some reason it was I was thinking blood Bank and the kind of frigid it's kind of got the fridge. It looks cold.
Yeah, it's funny you mentioned blood Bank because so in printing.
I know this from my advertising days.
Uh, there's a thing called spot color and it's a you know, you get the specific Pantone code because you want to want to use a very specific color. And it looks like they used a spot color and it makes this label, this artwork looks so premium. Specifically, it's on the red and it looks like it's just glowing. And that's how they've used it. It's like the science, it says, Limby's liquor. I don't know what that is.
And then they got the red glow coming out of the windows a little bit, and it makes it look like, truly that this can is glowing in my hand. I almost want to set it over here next to our all day Food Market winter item that listeners sent our away because it's got the similar kulga, which I figured.
You could appreciate. Yeah, well, and I think I am particularly drawn to dope can art and this and very all makes some great stuff, but this is like one of my favorites of this.
Well, normally it's a bit more gothic, it's like it's a bit more metal and this just the vibes.
Of this are off the charts. Yeah, for sure, very thoughtful as well as the beer. Very thoughtful art so good, but oh not quite.
Let's remntion the url that he mentioned for how to money Listeners to get one hundred dollars off student loan planner dot com.
For slash how to money. If you've got.
A more complicated student owned situation going on, you want to take it to another level other than just recertifying your income. You're like, no, no, no, I really want to knock this thing out, really figure out how to pay as little as possible.
Talk to the experts. That's what Travis's team are. So our buddy. Until next time. Best friends out, Best Friends Out.