Starting a Business With Zero Dollars with Alan Donegan #247

massive amounts of debt. When almost half of new businesses fail within their first five years, it's clear that this is the type of guidance that is needed today, especially given the uncertain times that we're living in. Allan's motto is fail fast and fail cheap, and through trial and error, he has built up his own business without ever having taken on any debt. So today we're going to dive into his story as well as how you can start a business with zero dollars. So Alan, thanks so much

for joining us on the podcast. Matt, Joel, I've been looking forward to this. Hey, we have to Alan, We're really excited to get a chat with you today. And by the way, on every episode, Matt and I we drink a craft beer because it's something that we love. And today we're drinking a stout by one of my friends, John, who's got a little microbrewery called Little Cottage Brewing, And I'm really excited to have this one on the show today.

But Alan, what is your craft beer equivalent? What's something you're willing to spend money on in the here and now while you're also trying to save and invest well for your future. Actually it's Lego. Lego is my craft bear, like the toy Lego. The toy. Yes, don't judge me. I'm a forty one year Lego. There's actually a term for what we are. It's a a f o l adult adult fan of Lego, and I am a huge fan of that. So I spend money on Lego sets, Dude,

that's all. Sometimes I love that. I love what kind of the outside of the box things that people bring to the table when they're passionate about something. I think when people are passionate about kind of things that that aren't mainstream. So I dig your Lego addiction. Man, I don't know. I feel like Lego's pretty mainstream, like in some of the malls which are all closed by the way, but like I know here in Atlanta, like you have what is it the like Lego Land? Is it called

Legoland Alan? When you visit Atlanta will take you to Lego Land. But like you can go there and they've got all the different kits and I don't know what you call them, ellen, but just the different packages that you can get where you can build stuff. But how do they categorize these different things that you buy, Like when you buy say, like the Death Star, do they say that like this is a two thousand piece Lego set or like like is there a difficulty rating? When

it comes to some of those different models. They have age ranges on the front of them, which I always find using, like how old you have to be to do them. I tend to buy the sixteen years plus sets to make sure that there's a bit of a challenge. But they do these range of modular buildings where you can actually build yourself a mini Lego city. And that's my dream one day is to build a Lego city.

That's what I want to do. Very cool. I know I've seen some Frank Woyd right kits where basically you can recreate some of his most famous pieces of architecture that he's created like falling water, Like you can get that in lego for him and build it and then have it slowly fall into the river over a matter of decades. Well, Ale, tell us about your overall view towards money and how it was influenced by your upbringing.

You know, in particular, there's a story involving a suitcase of money that your that your dad brought home one day. But yeah, how did you view money as a child. Yeah,

money was heavily influenced by my family. We had a huge amount at one stage, and then we had nothing at another stage, and my dad ran his own business, and I always remember in the early days, he came home one day with a giant suitcase of money after having done a deal, and my little brother and I we were probably eight and six or maybe a bit younger. We sat in the lounge and he tasked us with putting all of the notes the same way around so they were ready to be paid into the bank the

next day. And there was like a hundred grand in cash, and you had to put all the queen's heads the right way around. Um. So it was kind of the experience. And he always had cash about until he went bankrupt, and he went bankrupt very significantly for three point six million pounds, so about five million dollars. And that was way back in the eighties nineties. It's a massive amount

of money back then. And we were then doing car boot sales or what would you call them, like yard sales to raise enough money to be able to buy food for the week. So my upbringing had a huge impact on the way I think of money and specifically my aversion to debt. Sure. Yeah, it seemed like that there was a very maybe had of very fluid view of money, you know, I mean, having experienced plenty of

money but then also having experienced not having enough. Um, it was something that maybe hopefully that you had control over. But yeah, I'm sure that had a lot to do with that. Yeah, And that always like those childhood memories of money and what it was like, like how your parents talked about it and how they handled it, and the things that you saw in front of your very eyes, like,

they impact us so heavily. Alan, So I gotta think that that has just left this massive imprint on on the way you've moved forward in your adult life and how you handle money today. What's the beliefs that get repeated to you, the things like money is the root of evil, all evil. A family member actually repeated to

meet that to me this week. And it's really interesting when you hear these beliefs that people have about what money is, especially as it's an inanimate object, and if you want to really get a grasp of your finances, you need to change the way you think about it and what you believe about it. And money isn't the root of all evil. It's the things people do to

get it or to hold onto it. And actually, when I've started to change my beliefs in the way I think about money, it's more regularly flowed into my life, and I now believe money is an amazing tool and you can do incredible things with money. So I look after it and I respect it, and it's quite high up my values list because it is an important tool, is an important resource, and life is a lot more

difficult without it. Sure, yeah, that's very true. Alan. It seems like every entrepreneur, and you are an entrepreneur to a t has some sort of like hustle story from their childhood. They gave them kind of a taste of what it could be like to be. They're they're very own boss. So what was your first entrepreneurial endeavor when you were a kid. My first one was actually the best business model ever by the moment. Would buy the

ingredients for some food. I would make Mars bar cake, which I don't know if you ever had Mars barquape. You basically get rice crispies and then melt Mars bars and butter over it. It's indulge in. It's incredible. And then I would go and sell at school and I would keep all the profits. So I had a hundred percent profit because I didn't buy the ingredients and it

was incredible and I made money. Um. And that carried on and actually when I was at college, which is sixteen to eighteen in England, I made more money in college than I did at my first jobs through side hustles selling stuff. Um. And that led to realizing that actually you can make good money doing this stuff. M Yeah,

I like that that. I like how I mean, there are certain lessons that I feel that we try to teach our kids, including and I was like, well, you gotta payback mommy and daddy for the supplies and all that. But there's something to be said about starting things off on a very positive foot, and positive is a very positive but off on when you're trying to instill some of the lessons that you can teach your kids with

our trepreneurship, right. But you know, so Alan, like, obviously it seems that you were maybe like you're going to be an entrepreneur no matter what you know. With your dad being in business. It sounds like your parents encouraged that. But like, in your opinion, do you think that everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur? Well? I think it, Like so, just for me, it wasn't guaranteed. My mom didn't want me to be an entrepreneur, didn't want me

to go and neither did my granny. They both wanted me to get a straight job to follow that route, and I did for many years and actually from the ages of twenty three to eight, I did the corporate job stuff. I just didn't fit in. Um So I think it's interesting when you look at people's paths, but entrepreneurship, that's back to that question, are you born an entrepreneur?

Can you learn it? I think there are beliefs and thought patterns that are installed in you as when you are young, that will help you to be an entrepreneur. But I truly believe anyone can learn this stuff if they want to. And that thing that people say, I am not an entrepreneur, well that's just because you haven't done it yet. Let's have a go and then you can call yourself an entrepreneur and then you'll start to make progress. And I think it's learned skills. There you go.

So what typically then, Alan stops people, in your opinion, from starting in business, starting that entrepreneurial endeavor that they really would love to get going. But yeah, what's the thing holding them back? Typically? I'd love to know. Matt Joel, do you think entrepreneurship is risky? I think most people

would say that it is. But actually I've come around over the years because I think I was ingrained to be less entrepreneurial minded more work for someone else, and I've grown to see that actually that's pretty risky putting all your eggs in one basket as opposed to maybe a more diversified basket of entrepreneurialism. Yeah, I mean, and like you said, Alan, I think a lot of times the safe route is what's taught in the US as

well as maybe the UK. But you know, going to school, getting a degree, getting a safe, dependable job, that seems to be kind of like the slam dunk option for for most folks. And entrepreneurship because it's not taught, because starting your own business isn't taught, I feel that it is viewed as more risky because it's you know, it's the it's the fear of the unknown, essentially, and so when you're not taught something, there's reasons to be scared

of something if you don't know how it works. You know, like if you know nothing about electricity, you better not mess with electricity because you know, you might kill yourself. And so I think there can be times when people take that and they apply it to maybe entrepreneurship as well, because they don't exactly know how it works and they

think that they could potentially mess things up. But but yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but it does, and there's actually a lot there because you're right, the standard path is what gets taught. Go to school, get good grades, go to college, get good grades, get a good job, follow the job, get a pet, get a house, proof you can't kill the pet before you have a kid, have kids, work for fifty years, retire at seventy. Die.

That's the standard plan for life and anything outside that people consider risky, especially entrepreneurship, and it's predicated or based upon the belief that it takes money to make money, and nearly all entrepreneurship starts with make a list of the stuff you need to start your business, put a dollar or a pound amount against it, and work out how much money you need to borrow to start up. And the whole thing is based on I need money to start. And if you're going into debt to launch

a business, it is risky. It's highly risky, but it doesn't have to be that way. There are so many ways to start without ever going into debt. And if you start without debt, what you're risking is a little bit of time and energy, not dollars, and I think that's the distinction. You do have to take risk, but you can choose the type of risk. So you can choose whether it's risking time, energy, or money or a combination of all three, and you get to decide which

risk you take. Yeah, so an I don't note, I mean you're you're talking about traditional business plans essentially, right, um. And you've mentioned before how those business plans that like they're essentially worthless, you know, but every article that you ever read about starting a business like that list that out as as one of the most necessary parts of getting the ball rolling. So you know, in your opinion, why don't these business plans actually work well? I think

there's a few reasons, Um. Number one is, business plans are often written in isolation before you've even spoken to a customer, and people have these ideas and thoughts in their head. They put them on the paper, but they've never tried them in reality. My opinion is, try it first, and then afterwards, maybe you write out what found out. And I did exactly this. I spent two weeks writing a business plan. It was beautiful, had colored graphs, it

was gorgeous document. I put it in the draw and then I went to see a real life customer and I learned more in an hour's conversation with a real life customer than I did in two weeks of research on the internet and writing a business plan. And basically, they said to me, we don't want what you've written. Our problem is something else, and then I had a choice in that moment to either stick with my business plan or to quit and change and sell what the

customer actually wanted. And so what I would say to you is, before you write a business plan, before you do anything, go speak to a real customer. That's where the learning is UM. But most people think you need to write the business plan, then you need to take it to a bank and borrow the money, or you need to get the money from somewhere, and you just

don't have to do that. Yeah, well, we want to hear all about alan your specific steps in how to start a business with zero dollars or zero pounds, depending on which side of the pond people are listening to this this episode on. But there's one story that has stuck out to me that you've shared before, and I think that's a good kind of set up for us as we begin to then ask those questions about how

the specific steps people can take. Can you tell us about how you help the homeless man start a business. It's this kind of inspiring story that I think UM can help all of us see maybe the hidden ways in which we have resources at our disposal that we just haven't even thought about so one of the very early pop up business schools, one of the ways we teach people how to start a business with no debt

is to sell what they've already got. So if you look around your house, you've probably got a load of old DVDs, old stuff, board games, who knows what it is. We can sell that race and money and use that to start the business. And there was one guy in the audience who at the time was homeless, and all he had was a backpack, a old iPad with a crack screen, and the clothes he was wearing. And he just looked at us and went, well, I don't have

anything to sell. And we were thinking, well, how can we help this guy raise some money to get going. So we actually asked the question, do you know anyone who does have something that you could help sell? And he thought for a minute, and he thought about some of his friends, and he said, well, okay, I've got a couple of friends who do live in nice houses, and they've got garages full of stuff that they don't use.

She said to him, well, why don't you do a deal and help them to clear out their garages and sell off the stuff and then keep a percentage of the profits, and that's what he did. And I think one of the things about entrepreneurship is there are so many opportunity if you get yourself into a resourceful state to look for them. And there's always something you can sell or something you can do to raise money to

get to where you want to be. And there's a million businesses we could start straight away that you could do without debt. And it might not be your dream business to start with, but it will help you get to where you need to be. Yeah, there's ways for us to be resourceful and scrappy even yea, even when we have very few contacts, even when we have very

few resources, uh, you know, to our own name. So Alan, like Joel mentioned, we're gonna talk more about the steps that we can take in order to get our businesses off the ground, and we'll get to those right after this break back from the break we're talking with Alan don Agan and we're talking about starting a business, hopefully

with no money. So Alan, you've already given us I think you know, and it's hiring story there and we've already covered some ground on the lack of a need for a traditional business plan in order to get started. So if we don't need to write the business plan, what is the first step in getting a business off the ground? In your opinion, the first step, I mean you need an idea, you need a thought of what

you're going to do. And the question we actually ask of the pop up business school is what do you enjoy doing? What do you do where time vanishes? What do you enjoy spending your time on? And then let's figure out how to make money doing something you enjoy, because if you enjoy doing it when it gets tough, and it will get tough at a certain point, that enjoyment is what keeps you coming back and makes you want to get up on a Monday morning and do it even if it is hard sometimes. So we start

with what do you enjoy? Then we start to think about what do people want? And actually businesses about fixing problems for customers. So if we can find what you eno oi and who needs that service, that you can fix their problems and then we just go and sell it to them. And actually, if we were to say how our method is different to the traditional the number one way is that we start with sales, but nearly all business training programs end with sales rather than starting

with them. And I think the quickest way to learn is to get out there in front of a real customer and ask them if they want to buy what

you do. Yeah, so, yeah, Alan, you I mean you're you're kind of mentioning that when we're talking about the business plan, you're pretty keen on selling before you take you know, some of these big boy business steps, and so can you talk more about that, like why are are you all about skipping these other traditional business formation steps and starting with selling because you don't know if anyone wants it whatever it is you're planning. Absolutely, And

this is actually what happens so many times. It's why so many entrepreneurs around the world to have garages full of stuff they can't sell because they bought a load of things, they've made a load of T shirts, they produced it before they've sold it, and then they find that no one actually wants it. I say, do the exact opposite. Before you write the training course, find someone who wants it before you produce the T shirt, Sell it from the design before you build anything. Sell it first.

Then you know if someone wants it. But that kind of brings us to the question why don't people sell first? Like what puts them off? And Matt and Joel. If I say to you the words salesman, what's the first word that comes to mind? Salesman, schmarmy, Like salesman in and of itself, it is just a negative kind of exactly. And so even that the term itself has this negative attached to it, and so that yeah, if you if you say a salesman, it's like, oh, I don't want

to be that. Yeah, and I'm They're telling everyone to start a business, you have to sell, and they have this instant reaction of yuck. I don't want to be schmimy. I don't want to be pushy. I don't want to have a shiny suit, I don't want to sell used cars like get away from me sales. And it's really interesting. I've run that exact exercise in Africa, in America, in England, all around the world, and it's the same reaction to sales.

They think it is pushing something on someone. So the first step is actually to realize sales is about finding someone with a problem that you can fix. So what I would do is I would identify how my service or product makes someone else's life better, and then I would go around asking people if they have the problem that I fix, and if they do, that's when I can pitch them the product or service. Sales is not about pushing stuff on people. Sales is actually the process

of making the world a better place. And if you look at it like that, you suddenly get inspired to go out there and sell more because every time you sell, you make someone else's life a little bit better and you get slightly wealthier. Yeah. I dig that, So I think, yeah, we need a sea change maybe in just kind of our mindset about what sales means. And I think that's a good reframe. Uh So. Yeah. Another piece of traditional advice Alan is that people need to take on debt

in order to get things off the ground. In order to get the business started, you need the seed money. And you know this this whole episode, really, this is like the crux of what we want to get at. Why is it so bad to start a business with that, getting a loan from a bank, borrowing from friends and family, that all the many ways in which people actually start a business. Why, in your opinion, it's that just a

terrible way to go about it. Well, I think mostly it's a terrible way to go about it, because people spend that money that they borrow from friends, family or the bank instantly, and they tend to spend it on stuff they don't actually need. They buy a fancy new laptop, they get some offices. I know what, our print a thousand business cards with my new logo so that I can feel special, And they buy a load of stuff

they don't actually need to launch the business. And if you just started it, starting it with no debt forces you to be creative, and it means if it does go wrong and you don't enjoy running it, then you're not in the hole. You don't have to clamber back out. And I know so many people who have borrowed money to build businesses. They've done it for a year, realized they didn't enjoy it, and then they have to go and get a job to pay back the loan they've got.

And why bother, why bother doing any of that if

you don't have to. Yeah, and I've got to think that the risks involved with starting your own business these days, you know, with just the pandemic, the coronavirus um, I feel like the risks that are inherent with entrepreneurship are actually even maybe a little bit larger, and so like, it would make sense that going into debts during these times for something like your own business would be an even even worse move, right, I'm just doing it's entirely

at this time, in uncertain times, things are moving quickly and you just don't know what would work. And well, let me give a clear example. Let's say you were building a product. Let's say the three of us were going to design a new board game. We could have a lot of fun with me too, I'm a huge fan.

Let's say we designed this board game. It's a finance board game or whatever it is, has you and I faces on the little models as they move around, and we build businesses and we do all sorts of crazy stuff. We design this board game. Now, what most people do traditionally is they go, well, I need ten grands to be able to do the first print run to get all of these board games printed, and then I will sell them. And that is the traditional model is you

create first and sell second. But the world changed many years ago and you just don't have to do that. And actually, most board game manufacturers now realize this and they run kickstarters or they reach out to the audience and they put up the designs, they show the pictures. They haven't built it, they've just got a sample and they've got some designs, and they sell it through a

kickstarter campaign or something else. They bring the money in first, and then they use the customers money to print the first order to be able to fulfill the orders. That's selling your value before you create it, and that's one of the most critical things. You've got to sell first and then create second. We can design it and we can prove it works, and we can show them the pictures. That's time and energy, but we don't have to money.

And there are so many ways. I mean, you, the three of us, we could knock up a free website in a couple of hours. We could come up with the ideas for the game. We could sketch out first board. I'm sure one of us has got a friend somewhere that's a graphics designer that could help us put it and make it look pretty. We could get that out and put a buy now button and see if anyone buys. Then we've got no risk. Right, So so that's how right like that's how you are able to go about

starting your business without debt. Like what are some like other ways where you can start your own small business without any money without actually going into debt. Do you have some other examples? Yes? Absolutely, And I guess the first question is it depends whether you're selling a product or a service. Service based industries tend to be a lot easier. Let me give you one example. There's a fabulous business in reading in the UK that we help

start up in the early days. They're called time trap escape rooms, and you might be thinking, well, how do you start an escape room with no money? That's quite difficult because you need a building. And the way this couple did it there named a Katie and Andrew, and they wanted to get a building to set up their escape room, and following our course, they decided to go round and try and borrow a space. So they went

into the local town. They went to every restaurant, every hotel, and they told them what they were trying to do and asked if they had any spare space. They got rejected time and time again for the entire day, until it was right at the end of the day and they were walking back towards the car. And as they were walking back towards the car to drive home, they saw one last hotel and you cannot make this stuff up. The hotel was called Great Expectations, and they walked into

Gray Expectations. They made friends with the guy behind the bar and the manager. They pitched their vision, said what they wanted to do, and he actually said, well, we got this spare room at the front we don't really know what to do with. You can have it, borrow it, set it up. That will bring people into the hotel to buy drinks and to buy food. You definitely need to drink after the escape room. They can after beer.

And they borrowed that space. I think they spent about a thousand pounds setting up the space, So they did spend a little bit of money, but compared to what it would traditionally cost to set up an escape room, it was nothing. And they built the escape room. They pre sold the tickets on the website, so they had people booked in for when they were opening, and in that first six week run they made enough money to

put the deposit down on their permanent space. That yeah, and that's outside of the box thinking right there, that most people are like, I just gotta find this fancy space and I gotta sign a twelve month lease or something like that in order to get the ball rolling. And and this couple was like, now we're going to take a completely different approach and and find somebody that has extra space. That's brilliant, man, I love that, especially

given retail at the moment. Sure, you go into the shopping mall and there's empty spaces everywhere the shops everywhere, there's under utilized spaces. I mean, get out into your town and have a look around. It's unbelievable what is free and empty. And let's see if we can borrow it rather than pay for it. Yeah. And if you can add value to someone else's business by starting your own business, by bringing foot traffic in their door, that's clutch.

That's a win win for everybody, right, absolutely, So, Alan, what if a business owner or a wanna be business owner has money in the bank, are you just railing against or are you just against people taking on debt in order to start a business, or do you think individuals should be incredibly cautious even with their own funds that they're sinking into the initial startup and launch phase of a business that they that they want to open.

I think that using money is quite often a way around you're trying to skip the steps you need to go through to make it a successful business. You throw some money into try and get further quicker, and that has risk to it. And actually what we found is if you take the steps you have to go through to get there, you get the learnings you need to

make it a successful business on the way. So if you run a six week pop up for your escape room, you will learn a huge amount of that, so that when you do have the permanent space that you've paid for, you've already got the learning and you know what works and you know what doesn't, and it makes it inherently less risky. So I would say, even if you've got cash in the bank, don't skip the steps you need

to because it will give you incredible learning. And the other thing is if you say, well, okay, how do I launch this with as little money as possible? You have to get creative. And it's when you get creative you start to come up with ideas that are out of the box that will really make a difference to your business. If you just throw your money out of it, at it and do exactly the same thing everyone else does.

You're not going to stand out. You know what I keep hearing you say, Allen, is that, like it seems that when you get financing lined up right, when you have a bunch of money set aside for the business, that you spend it. Like you said a little bit ago, that you just you spend it all up front on things that you don't need, on things that you've heard might be a good idea to spend money on, but it's not necessary in order to achieve what it is

that you're looking to achieve. In the same way, and I think you've mentioned this before, but like that's how we treat our personal finances as well. You know, when it's your own money, when it feels like it's yours and you have a spot for that money to go, like, you're not just spending that money because you have it. You're you're still trying to be creative, be resourceful, making sure that you're getting the best deal you're You're not

just spending money because it's just sitting there right. Well. Absolutely, and I think it's exactly the same thing with personal finance as it is with business, you try and reduce your expenditure, you try and maximize the amount of coming in, and then with the difference in between, you invest it for the future to create a return. And I don't care whether it's a business or personal finance, same rules apply.

And if you do that, you can have an incredibly successful personal finance or an incredibly successful business either one. And I run both my personal finances or Katie and I sorry, because we do it together. That's my wife. We run both our personal finances and our businesses in exactly the same way. I love it. Man. All Right, We've got a few more questions for you, Alan, including we want to know about how you are for your services for free, like what's your business model. We'll get

to those questions right after the break. All right, Joel, we are back from the break and we're we're talking about starting a business with no debt, and we're speaking with Alan on again. And let's kind of like dive into the mind a little bit. Let's talk about mindsets. What do you feel are the biggest like mindset shifts that potential entrepreneurs need to foster and develop within themselves in order to be successful, Right, in order for their

businesses to succeed. You know, like, is it just like clocking in at a factory from nine to five or is it a little bit different. Everything changes when you run your own business. And I think the most exciting thing about starting your own business is you are your own boss. You get to decide what you do every day. But that's also the scariest thing because there's no one telling you what to do. You've got to make that

stuff up. And I think that's a real big shift because every day you wake up and there was a blank canvas in front of you, and you have to make it up. You've got to make up the marketing message, You've got to make up what sales are going to do. You've got to make up You've got to create it

all out of nothing. And I think that's the hardest shift that I went through, that my business partner went through, that everyone I know goes through when they leave doing a traditional job or a traditional business and start their own thing. They just sit there on their own wondering

what do I do? And if I could say one thing to your audience is the cheesiest expression ever, but it sticks with me if it's to be it's up to me, and that I have rammed into my brain as hard as possible, because no one else is going to make things happen. You have to make them happen. And I'm always amazed that turning up at meetings on time, making phone calls, making things happen every day, that's actually not a common thing. People just don't seem to make

things happen. And there are that learning that you've got to do it every day. You've got to set the appointments, You've got to drive for it to happen. You have to ask the question. You have to say, when are we going to do this podcast, When are we going to record it, When are we going to sell it? What are we going to do? And that drive, the drive has to come from within you. And if you're not someone who's motivated from the inside, then do not

start a business. Go get a job. So all right, let's say I have the angling to start a business, but I'm a little nervous about kind of doing that and having the blank canvas. Do you have any advice for people who are not sure how to structure their days if there isn't kind of built in structure for them because you know that they're is that structure when I go to but it's all up to me to create the structure. When it's my business, then it is completely up to you. You get to decide which is

terrifying and exciting and equal measures. I would so when you're first starting, my thoughts are structured as a mini experiment with some key items that you're going to do. So let's take the board game example, Matt and Joel, we're all setting this up together, and then I would define what are the key steps. Number One, design, prototype, and test. Once I've got a tested prototype. Number two, I'd get the graphics design done and i'd try and find someone to do that with me. Number three put

it out on a Kickstarter. Number four promote it so I would share it with board games enthusiasts. I'd find them the groups on Facebook, I'd reach out on Instagram. There's so many ways to find those people and bring them to your page. And that is mini experiment is design it, put it out there, see if anyone buys, and I'd give myself, I don't know X amount of time for each of those blocks. I would get it done and I would see if I could launch it.

And it's having those clearly defined markers and knowing when you're going to get things done by that enable you to do it. And if it's a mini experiment, you're committing to two or three weeks or whatever it is, that allows you to do the experiment and to see if you get any results. If you get good results and people have bought, then maybe you push in harder

and keep going. If you get bad results and our board game fails and no one buys it, we will pretend it didn't happen, and we'll come up with a new idea quickly. Uh, and no one will ever know the wiser, and we'll have another go. And I think I would set myself those experiments to know I'm going to do it for ex period of I'm I'm going to test it. I'm going to see it, and then I'll work out if the mini experiment has worked or not whether I want to press on and keep going.

And I think that way, you've made your blank canvas a little bit smaller and it's easier to fill it up. I love those actionable mini steps essentially that you can take in order to make sure that it actually gets done and the timeframe right, which is huge to give yourself a deadline essentially like and even if it's just artificially imposed by you, which it's going to have to be typically well, commit to it online. This is always one of the tricks. People will do more for other

people than they will for themselves. So if you haven't announced you will have the prototype done by X date, you're more likely to let yourself off the hook than if you've committed to other people. So I was no accountability unless you've read others on board right exactly exactly, So I'd be saying to you Matt and Joel, I will have it back by ex eight and if I've promised you, I'm likely to do it. If I've promised myself and haven't told anyone, I might be nicer to

myself than I will be to other people. Yes, so commit totally well, Alan so Jo hinted at this earlier. But your business the pop up business school like it teaches you know, folks how to start their own business, but you do it for free. You know, you don't charge people who attend. So can you tell us about like your business model, because that's actually kind of a unique business model. When you're offering the product or the service free of charge, how are you making that work?

We're gonna get a little meta here future profits for any business it gets created because of pop up Business School. Basically, it's like shark tank. That's actually a good idea, and we thought about that for a time. But the downside to that business model is it makes me pick and choose the people who come to pop up Business School because I would only back the winners. And that's actually

the model. Little lot of incubators and different places used, and they pick who they think will be most successful. And I always wanted the pop up Business School to be open to anyone. I don't care where you're from, what your background is, who you are. You should have the opportunity to build a business doing something you enjoy and make money without debt, and I want to help you. So like that business model comes with some biases, so

what we did was completely different. We decided we would go and find sponsors for our workshops and then we would give them away free to the communities that need it the most, and we get counsels like some of our sponsors are Westminster City Council from London, we've had housing authorities. The one in Houston was run by Houston Housing Authority. We've had housing associations in England, we've had

corporate sponsors. So we've had construction companies. In my Acrossoft sponsored a couple and they pay for the workshops and then we give them away free to the people who need it the most. So in eight years of doing this, no one has ever paid to come on our events. And I always wanted the best entrepreneurial education available to

be free for everyone. That's killer, man. I love it, and I love the bias to make sure that anybody can get the training to start a business, because you're right, so much in our society is catered to the people with the great idea, with the leg up and and so yeah, saying no matter where you're at, you can start a business and helping those folks get off the ground is awesome and I love that. I love your

passion for that. So all right, one final question here for you, Alan, like, what what about leaving your day job in order to go all in on the business you've started. How do you know that it's time to leave your nine to five in order to actually make your your business that you've started the full time thing. A lot of people are sure like whether they should be quitting their job in order to start a business,

whether it should be a side hustle. Then if it is a side hustle, like how long until it's the main thing? Cool? So I think number one is running mini experiment on the side. Give yourself to three weeks a month, do them in the experiments if anyone buys, and do it in your spare time alongside your job. And how I would evaluate the mini experiment is on three criteria. So criteria one is did you enjoy doing it? This is critical you run the mini experiment. Did you

have fun? Did you enjoy it? If no, don't continue it because you know it's not going to work for you. Number two, did your customers enjoy it? Did you get good feedback? Did you sell anything? Did you did you bring in some money? Did people tell you it was awesome? Because that will tell you whether you can get more customers in the future. And number three is did you make any money? I mean maybe for the mini experiment you just want to break even, but is there an

opportunity here? Did you make some cash? Do you think you'll make cash in the future doing it. And I think if you've got those three things in line and you're probably your first mini experiment or two will fail. I know my first few businesses absolutely failed, and that's okay, especially if you're doing it without debt. Well, then you just go, well, never mind, it didn't work, I'll try again.

I guess that's that's a good point. It makes it so much easier also to have been in the business that isn't working, Whereas if you can cycle out of cash in, you might be going after that business and chasing it and chasing results for way to long. Yeah, which brings us to sunk cost fallacy, which is where you put fifty grand in in the year of your life and it's not working, but you can't give up

because you've sunk so much into it. Whereas if you've done a mini experiment three weeks and all you've got on the line is a bit of time and energy, then you're easier to let go and get to the next idea. And in nine of occasions, your first idea is not your best idea, and you need to go through a few ideas to get to one that will

actually work. Yeah, I mean, this is such a great way to approach entrepreneurship and starting your own business, right, I mean, like it's just it's safer, but it's just smarter as well. Right, Like, so not only are you sidestepping the risks associated with taking on loads of debt, but just the way you're talking about it, it makes it sound so attainable. And I think that's kind of change in mindset. Is is one of the biggest things that needs to happen, Like Joel, you said, like a

sea change needs to happen. I think folks need to see entrepreneurship not as this giant, audacious thing to to kind of tackle, like this this giant monster, but it's just this little pest, you know, like and and it's this little problem that like, Okay, if I kind of apply some energy towards it, this is something that I can fix or this is a problem that can be solved and and hopefully this can make you know, individuals

lives better. I think by kind of reducing in their mind how big of a problem it is to start your own business, I think we could see a lot more small businesses take off. And you know, and we certainly appreciate your approach right and how you view entrepreneurship. Where can listeners where can they find more information about you as well as more information about starting their own small business. Of course, thank you Matt and Joel um So. If they want to find out more about the pop

Up Business School, just google pop Up Business School. We're the only thing that shows up. And there are free online events. Because of the current situation, we've had to move online that will be coming up around the world in different places and they can tune into one of those. I've launched a podcast called Rebel Entrepreneur, which is all about building businesses with no money, So they can google me and that, and we would love to help them

start up and make their own money doing something they love. Well, Alan, thanks so much for all you're doing to help other people start their own business and you realize a dream and often cases that's what's happening when people are starting in business, solving a problem, realizing their own dreams. It's a beautiful thing, man, and we really appreciate your time in this conversation. This has been a huge amount of fun and I'm serious. Next time I come to the States,

you can guys can crack out a craft bear. I'll get some Lego and let's design a ball game out of Lego and let's try and sell it on Kickstarter. I am completely serious. I would love to do that. We could do a mini experiment. I love it. Let's try it. Man, totally up for it. Yeah, that sounds great. Awesome, Thanks again, Alan, Joel May. What a fantastic conversation we just had with Alan down again of the Pop Up

Business School as well as the Rebel Entrepreneur podcast. Um, you just had a lot of great insights there and and basically like like demystifying small business. I felt like that's a lot of what we spend our time doing today. But for you, man, what was your big takeaway for our listeners? Man and stuff? To come up with just one? Because I felt like one major thing is it's easier than you think it is. And most people they build it up in their minds and it becomes this big thing.

And I think starting business isn't really all that hard. But I think to the biggest takeaway from me was think about what resources you do have at your disposal. And Alan's example of the guy with only the closer he's wearing and a backpack on his back and a busted iPad. Being able to start a business, being able to figure out some way to make money, and that

is something that people need, right. People pay for companies to come pick up their trash, to declutter their homes, and that's one of those things that you really don't need much money, if any money, to start that business. I just love the idea of everybody out there who wants to start a business sitting down for a second listing out their resources. It's easy to think about things in the negative context. What do I lack? What don't I have? I can come up with a long list

pretty quickly, But what do you have? They can help you accelerate those business plans and actually get something off the ground quickly. You've got something, I guarantee it. And I think his example really hit home that everybody's got something that they should be considering in order to start that business. Yeah, you're kind of a glass half full of beer kind of guy, got a glass half the Yeah,

So think about what resources you do have. And I think when you sit down and write that list, you'll realize, oh wait, I can't start something. And it's easier than I otherwise thought it would be nice man, I dig that. My big takeaway was when he was talking about sales. You know, he was like, we we both shared our immediate knee jerk reaction towards the words salesman, uh, salesperson. But one of the things that he mentioned that that really stood out to me was that sales is truly

about making the world a better place. You're solving problems and starting with that is just the smartest way of going about starting a business, right, Uh, starting with the customer in mind essentially. Like by doing that, you are doing market research essentially, and you're determining the demand for your product, whether it's a service or an actual tangible

product like a board game. When you can start from the standpoint of knowing that I'm either a solving a problem or be uh filling a gap in the market, you know, where there is a demand for something, it's almost a sure fire away to ensure your success because people are looking for a solution. You just need to stepped up and provide it. Yeah, I agree, sales isn't necessarily about being pushy, but it's about delivering something to someone that's gonna help them and then they they'll gladly

pay you money for right exactly. So all right, now, let's get back to the beer that we had on the show today. We drank a beer by Little Cottage. It's called Cookies and Cream and it's a nice stout brewed by our friend John, who has a little microbrewery. So I'm out where your thoughts on this beer, man, and I would describe this beer as very luxurious. It

was dark and sweet. Obviously, it was a stout, so I had some sugars going on there, but as well as those dark, robust flavors um and it was called Cookies and Cream, and so it definitely had kind of like a vanilla creaminess going on that you would expect from a stout like this. It was really good, almost sort of like a like a dessert beer that like sticks to your bones a little bit. You know, the pastry stouts. They're so hot right now, and this would

probably fit into that category a little bit. I I'm partial to some cookies and cream ice cream from time to time, So cookies and cream in my beer, yes, please? Uh yeah, I really like this one. In big props to our friend John for making such a delicious beer, not too sweet. Sometimes those pastry stouts can be a little sugary sweet too coining. For me, this was dark and thick um, but also with some of those notes

of cream and cookies and so yeah, I really dug it. Yeah, it had a nice balance, so Joe, that's gonna be it for this episode. Our listeners can find our show notes up on our website at how to Money dot com, and we'll make sure to link to some of Alan's resources as well. Yeah, and if you've been listening to How the Money for a little while and you've enjoyed it, you've gotten value from it, you've learned things, you've saved money, well,

we would appreciate a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps us get the message out there to more and more people, and that's what we want to do. We want to help people, give them the resources to start a business, or to cut back in their personal finances and save more of what they're making or make more right, all those kind of things. So that's what we're about here on this show. All right, Matt, that's gonna do it for this episode. Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,