Renovate or Move? #057

use it? There you go, Yeah, I gotta get that money back. All right. Before we get to the topic of renovation, though, have you noticed my sweet new haircut? You look a little less shabby? I will say, yeah, you're look you're looking at sharp. Man. Well, I wanted to tell everyone that I got a free haircut, and I've been getting free haircuts for quite some time. Now. You also get free haircuts. We'll talk about that in one second. Um. But I go to this program that

Supercuts runs. They retrained their stylists every couple of years or so, and so those stylists that are being retrained need to give haircuts to practice the things that they've learned that practiced their craft, right, Yeah, And so I sign up and I probably need a haircut, I don't know, every six eight weeks or so, and so I'll go just up the street from where I work and and I'll get a free haircut. And so today I got

another free haircut. Looks pretty smooth, feeling fresh. Yeah. And I gotta tell you, some days are better than others when I go there. Yeah, I can assess to that because there's been some times to do or you've come back and like your your hair is trimmed next to your ears, like all the way up almost to like the top of your ear, I look a little dumb and dumberish or something like that. Oh man, Then that that's making me think of dental work. You can do

the same thing with dental work, right. I remember growing up in Augusta, Georgia, and they've got a dental school there that you could go and get your teeth cleaned for free by a dental hygienists. They're practicing their craft. And what a free, awesome way to get your teeth cleaned, which might be something I know our listeners would like to hear me do because I got some flak for not going to the dentist every I don't know, six

months or something whatever some folks do. Yeah, so maybe find a free place to go get your teeth clean. I will report back. But when it comes to haircuts, though, man, Yeah, I've cut my own hair for the past over twenty years now, like ever since I was a kid. Basically, my mom messed up one time because she used to cut my hair and she screwed it up, and I was so upset at her. I told her, I was like, You're never gonna cut my hair again, because I was

an angsty preteen, I'm sure. And yeah, for the past over twenty years now, I've had a little haircutting kit and I've cut my own hair. And I've actually cut your hair too, like at the beach you have, Yeah, and what do you think? Decent? It was solid. Yeah, I'm not gonna lie. It was good. I would do it again. I would do it again. I would rather have you cut my hair than pay for a haircut. I'll tell you that. Boom and and so I'll tell everyone.

I'll add props coming from my co host. So I'll put a link in the show notes to the program there. It's nationwide and you can find a supercut center near you where they retrain people. And so if you're like me and you don't like paying for haircuts, you prefer to get it for free. And I will say that there's a slight trade off, right, I have to drive just to touch further in order to get this haircut.

The second trade off is the complete feeling of insecurity that's bubbling up inside of me while my hair is being cut. It you're like, what am I gonna look like walking out of here? Just exactly the stress and it just it Also it takes quite a bit longer, I feel like, because the person that's in charge has to oversee and make sure that the person is doing it well. So it's gonna take a little bit longer to get your hair cut. Did you get grated on

the spot? No, but they are correcting them as they go and pointers and whatnot, tips and tricks all that kind of stuff. Yeah, but I found it to be worth it, and it's actually it's kind of fun. I kind of like the people there at this point. So yeah, but just word of the wise, if you're find a place near you, and if you don't know of one. Check out our show notes for for this episode and you'll you'll see the link for the article I wrote about the many places around the country where you can

get a free haircut. Yeah, and I'll mention too that this isn't gonna be for everyone, right, Like, some people are gonna value having their hair cut by their stylist or someone who knows them really well and knows exactly what they like. You know, my old roommate in college, he uh was one of those guys that would pay a good bit of money to go to this nicer salon like John Edwards Style four hundred and something knowledge for hair. Yeah, not quite, but he didn't go to

this hip place downtown Athens. And what he told me was that my hair is the only thing I wear every single day. If I spend uh, you know, some money on a nice bear of jeans, and I wear those almost every day, why wouldn't I spend some decent money on a haircut? Flawed logic. I don't agree that that was his approach, And why you wear a hat it's much cheaper, But I mean again that that being said, some people value having a really nice haircut, having it styled.

You and I do not, even though we still want to look nice, like we've got nice hair, and I don't really care. Yeah, no, I look, I still look amazing. I'm just saying, but you want to look decent. But for instance, for us, like we would rather take that money and put it towards nice craft beer completely. And

that's exactly what it comes down to. I mean, for me, the thought processes, I can go spend fifteen dollars and a five dollar tip whatever it costs these days year since I this, Yeah, it's somewhere in that ballpark some really good beer for twenty bucks, and that's just kind of the trade off in my mind. That that's the way I think about it. And so yeah, for me,

going to get the free haircut totally worth it. I mean, like this beer that you brought for tonight's this is a Burial beer company surf Wax, and I know that this is one of your favorite beers completely. Burial is one of my favorite breweries right now. Yeah, and in my opinion probably overall, if I'm just factoring in every single possible thing when it comes to how many good beers they make, and they're cool packaging and stuff like that.

I think Burials number one on my list right really, Yeah, best breweries in the Southeast, best approach to beer, best flavors. Their artwork is totally awesome too. It's kind a little apocalyptic, yeah, a little pop. It's like apocalyptic mixed with folk, which is probably why you love it, because that's sort of your jams. Some of them are like a little weird, but I don't know. I kind of like the silver cans and I love the script that they use, and

and surf Wax is just my go to beer right now. So, Matt, I see you taking the ship. Give me one word that you would use to describe this delightful I pa from Burial, Dude, it's great? Is great your word? Because that's not a great word. My one word is gonna be gold standard. What are your thoughts? Man? Used to love this? I p a yeah, my word. It's been a minute since I've had this, but for a long time that's all I was drinking. I felt like and

my word is balanced. But Matt will get to some more tasting notes about this beer at the end of the show, but right now, let's get to the topic at hand. Is it better to renovate a home or to move. And there's a problem that a lot of people face when they find themselves bumping up against a home that feels too small, and families needs changed as they have more kids, or maybe one of the parents begins to work from home, finds themselves in need of

a home office. All these sorts of changes make us start to think, if we're living in a smaller house, well, hey, do I renovate that home or do we attempt to move and find another home that that suits are needs more appropriately? And so in this episode, we we want to tackle all of the potential thoughts that go through your head and kind of help people make an informed decision as to what the better move is for their situation.

And you know, for a lot of people, they think the only solution is to either sell your home or to stay and renovate, like you mentioned, but with home prices at pretty much all time highs right now, renovating might seem like that no brainers, you know, great solution, right if you're running out of space. And for me, man, I'm talking out of personal experience, because for us at our old home, we did plan to renovate. We had gotten drawings. We had dreamed of how we're going to

be in the house basically forever. We started getting quotes, and through that process is when we realized that, you know what, we think it's gonna be better this time to actually move to a different home. And we had different reasons for that. But then now a few years later, we're now obviously renovating our home and gosh, man, I feel like this is something that Kate and I have

talked about NonStop for the past several years. It's just something that's been on our minds where we're kind of always weighing the pros and cons Should we move, should we stay where we are and renovate to accommodate for a growing family? And you know, I work from home, like you mentioned having a home office. There's us a lot to consider, and yeah, we're gonna unpack all that this episode. And you moved just around the corner, literally like three or four blocks, right from where you were

to where you are now. And so for a lot of people, moving can often mean moving three or four miles or further, and that compounds the difficulty of that decision.

But I will say too, on top of it, the housing market in the particulars of where the housing market is at the current moment in time kind of compounds of difficulty of a decision like that as well, because if you're talking about a few years ago, Matt, when you bought this home, when you made the decision to move as opposed to renovate, it actually made a little bit more sense to move, just because housing prices were a little bit lower, mortgage interest rates were still incredibly

low all time lows. Yeah, and so the current housing market actually can lend itself to to make the decision towards renovating a little bit easier, even with renovating costs having gone higher, because hiring a contractor has gotten more expensive, right because of so many building projects happening around the country. Man, That's definitely true. When we contacted our contractor last year, he basically said, in you know, over ten years, this

is the busiest that he has ever been. And so to get his subs lined up and to try to maintain a you know, a specific tight schedule, he forewarned me that, hey, this is gonna be a little bit tough, but you know that he would do the best he could. But yeah, I like what you said, how given that certain market conditions might favor one over the other. Yeah, and so we are not necessarily going to cover all

the current market conditions that make it. We're gonna talk about kind of a generalized overview of how you should make this decision. But just remember that it completely depends on exactly what's happening in the housing market. And four or five years ago it made sense in so many more cases to move and to buy another home as

opposed to renovate the current home you're in. But right now, with like Matt said, prices close to all time highs, the opposite is more likely true in your case, and renovating actually makes more sense for most people right now. And also I wanted to mention as well that I mean, you and I are the cheap guys. We're not cheap, we're frugal, right, but we can cut each other's hair

if for your haircuts. And it almost sounds kind of funny to talk about how like, Okay, people have to either move and sell your house or you have to renovate and spend a ton of money that way, but it's worth mentioning challenge yourself to do neither, Like how could you use your space that you currently have in a different way. Maybe you could repurpose a formal dining room that you never use into a play space or a den for your kids. Look at the different spaces

in your home a little more critically. There's so much that you can do if you spend a couple hundred bucks, say at Ikea, and fix up your storage solutions in order to just make your space a lot more livable. Yeah, and if you're adding on because you want a guest bedroom in your house, we'll think about how much money that could potentially cost, and think about at the same time, what if you offered to pay for a hotel room a couple of times a year for people that come

into town to stay with you. That could actually, in a long run, end up costing you so much less. And so just yeah, I think a little bit outside the box when it comes to this question of renovating or moving. We think this is an important topic to cover because there are so many people face with this question. But, like Matt said, little challenge delaying this decision a little bit and forcing yourself to live, you know, within a

certain space while you save the cash too. For a potential renovation or move right is a worthwhile exercise, and at the same time, you might find that with a few small changes and tweaks to your current layout, you can easily and happily live inside of the space that you're currently inhabiting. Yeah, and cost is obviously one of the biggest things to consider when you're debating between renovating

or moving. And so we're gonna get to that right after the break, all right, Jeel, Costs gonna kick it off, Yeah, Matt, the costs of moving that purchasing a new home. The costs don't end at the closing table. And don't get me wrong, there are a lot of costs of the closing table right. There are agency fees on both sides

of of selling and buying. If you are moving, their closing costs associated with that, you'll likely be paying more interest, a higher interest rate on your new loan to pending on. You know when you bought the house you're currently in and what your current mortgage rade is. But on top of that, you're talking about new paint, new decor, furniture outfitting the new space. So buying a new home can be expensive, and especially if you're in this quandary of

renovating verse buying. You're looking at buying a bigger home, you're likely taking on a bigger obligation altogether, and you're gonna need to buy more stuff because all your old stuff just isn't gonna fill out this new home quite as well. Yes, right man. We talked about that in the Everything Costs More Than You Think episode. That's sort of one of the lifestyle secondary costs that just pop up when you move into a bigger home. And so buying a new home can be expensive, but dude, selling

your old home can be even more expensive, right. Like you mentioned, there's the realtory fees that you pay as a seller, closing costically with those, oftentimes you split with a buyer, and then on top of that paying for movers. You know, we just moved a few couple blocks, and for us it was pretty easy because we just got a bunch of friends together through some beer into the mix, and we threw everything into the u hau. But if you're moving to a different neighborhood or even across town,

it's kind of tough to do that by yourself. And as we get older, we get more responsibilities. I'm not really wanting to move my friends around anymore like I used to back in the day. Man, I don't know about you, it was it was so easy to get a good turnout for pizza and beer moving day back when you were four. It's so much harder, a lot harder now now that we're in our mid thirties. It's so hard to get our friends to turn out for

something like that. So you really might have to depending on what stage of life you're in and where you're at, you you might have to pay for movers, and that is definitely an added expense to consider. That's right, man. So moving it can be expensive, but so can renovating, right, and so potentially it can be more affordable than buying if you're in the same area, and if you've seen your values increase, you could even also tap into that increase in value for the home for costs via say

a home equity loan or a home equity line of credit. However, keep this in mind that renovation costs always end up costing more than you initially think. We are learning that firsthand. It's gonna cost you more. Yeah, things never seem to go as planned as the contractor planned. Or as you had planned, right, and and so that's always like the desired goal is cool, let's put this on paper, let's figure out how much is this we're going to cost.

But anytime, and especially Matt, we're talking about old houses here. You're in a nine house. Yeah, you and I both have houses that are about a hundred years old. And so when you start to open walls or rip open flooring or reroute plumbing, you're talking about mega increases in

cost because of older systems that need updating. You might find something like wood rot or just a system that is completely out of date, and it might have been fine in the current conditions for a few more years, but once you start renovating, it's like another domino that falls. And once you've opened a wall up, at that point it has to be addressed. Yeah. Man, honestly, that's the biggest thing that Kit and I have struggled with. Okay,

we've already got the drywall guy here. Do we need to go ahead and maybe just dry all this as well? And maybe we want to redo this wall or oh the plumbers here, Gosh, doesn't make sense to go ahead and replace the cast iron pipes that are also in this part of the house, it's hard to draw the line. And that's just one of the ways that you can

see your renovation budget continue to creep up. Yeah, and I've never done a completely full on renovation myself, Matt, but I've renovated entire bathrooms more than once at my

primary house and rental houses. And this happens then when I replace bathrooms, I've had to replace the entire subfloor every time, because bathrooms have water issues and get wet, and especially over decades and decades of compounding, there's an opening in the cock you know, along the steam of your bathtub, and water starts to get in there, and it starts to get down to the subfloor, and just every time, not knowing it ahead of time, that's an

extra almost thousand dollar expense to replace the subfloor on just a small bathroom. That's just one example of something that is typically not factored in but almost always happens as an expensive pops up. And you're gonna find that if you're renovating a kitchen or a bathroom something like that, those sorts of additional expenses are almost inevitably gonna pop up for you. That's right, man, and hopefully your home is now worth more than what you actually invested into

it with a renovation. But depending on what problems you rent into you like, you may not, and depending if you maybe overbuild for the neighborhood, you may not get that money back at all. And so the value almost never increases dollar for dollar what you put into it. And so make sure that when you are renovating that you're doing it for yourself and that you're not only considering the resale value. A lot of times people think, oh, well,

we can get that money back when we sell it. Well, first of all, you know, you may not even sell the place, like you might end up keeping it. And you've got this fancy tile work that you thought you were gonna maybe get your money back on um and now you are the one enjoying it in your master bathroom all by yourself, just you and your significant other. But secondly, chances are that someone isn't going to value that that fancy tile work as much as you are.

And so whatever you're doing, make sure that you are the one enjoying it and that you're receiving sort of optimal value out of what you're putting into the renovation. So, Matt, just a quick stat that I think we should throw out there. This random school in the northeast called Harvard did a study. I don't have you heard of them, Never heard of it. Yeah, nobody's smart goes there, I don't think. But they found that the average payback in a home's resale value is only fifty six of the

cost of the remodel ouch ouch. That's brutal, man, And I think most of us have watched just way too much HDTV, and we've seen these numbers that are just ridiculous, and we've seen people that are professionals at it who sometimes lose their shirts as well. I love too at the end of an HDTV show where they say projected sale of this house blah blah blah blah blah, right

that they flipped. And so just know that that the rosy outlook on an HDTV show is completely different than the numbers that have been found in studies and in all likelihood, what you're putting into your rento, I hope you love it. Make sure you love because I can almost assure you that you're not going to get the money back out that you put into it. Yeah, that's right, man, Flip or Flap, Right, we're talking about more more of the flop side. You don't watch any of those shows, really,

do you know? My mom loves him them. Yeah. Yeah, she's super into the h G t V stuff and every time I'm over there we'll watch a few minutes together. But yeah, my in laws love it as well, to watch the different ones where they are like on an island or it's like flipper Flop on the island or beach side flipper Flap. There's like all these different versions of it and it's interesting. But at the same time, yeah,

it's made for TV. It's not reality. And just make sure you keep that in mind when it comes to what you're spending on your renovation. And as someone who has hired his own contractors, hired people to work on many renovation projects at my homes, I feel like HTTV lacks a lot of realism. Oh yeah, all right, man, So that was cost when it comes to renovating versus moving. Now we're gonna talk about location. And so you know, when you move, a lot of times that comes with

some excitement that comes with finding a new neighborhood. You get to start fresh. There's new relationships. There are new things like your surroundings, like new parks and things like that. Dude, However, it's kind of sad at the same time too, Right, you're having to uproot, You're breaking off a lot of relationships with neighbors in the community that you've who knows how long you've lived there, hopefully for at least five years.

But it's sort of a sad time as well. And so even though it might make sense from a number standpoint, there's a lot of downsides to to moving as well. Yeah, that's always a tough decision if you especially if you love where you currently live and you're trying to figure

out whether you should renovate this house. I mean, obviously, if you're thinking about renovating, then there's some attachment at the house, maybe just the actual physical house or the neighborhood or the community that you're in, and moving, you know, might seem a little sad. So, like you said at the beginning, Matt, that challenge to kind of stay put. You know, if you do love where you're at in the house, maybe you just feel like you're bursting out.

That seems a little bit. If you can find ways to kind of stay put that can help you to stay in the house that you love and in a community that you love. Man, However, there are you know, again, some benefits when it comes to moving, Like you could potentially move closer to your work. Maybe you've got a new job since you purchase your last home, so you

could save time on commuting. Maybe since then as well, you've got kids, and so now you're considering the schools, and there might be some better schools in the area that you're looking to buy. These are things that might silt the scales for or against. Again when it comes to location, if you renovate, well, obviously you get to stay put. If you love where you are, that's awesome. And I don't know about you, Matt, but I feel like even in our neighborhood or we live, even just

moving a few blocks can mean a big difference. And I'm so tight with my neighbors, like we get together a lot, and I love not just our neighborhood, but I love our block. I love the people that live

across from me and on the side of me. And if I move three blocks to to go to a bigger house, that just changes the vibe of how I live truly, and so that's the kind of thing that maybe that doesn't factor into your decision nearly as much, but general location and specific location are just a really important thing for you to think through before you make this decision, all right, Joel, So that was location. Next,

we're gonna talk about dust boxes and life upheaval. It's a pretty serious event, and you might be living out of boxes maybe for a little bit, maybe a couple of weeks, but generally speaking, you're able to quickly sort of rip the bandit off right and make the change all at once. It's a relatively quick thing and you can just kind of move on with life. Yeah, but if you renovate, depending on the size and scope of the renovation, right, it can take months, potentially like half

a year. And so if you're planning to live through the rento out like you are, you can speak to this. You also might be living without a kitchen or a second right for potentially months. And I don't know about you, but I still like recording in your dining room slash kitchen. I think it's kind of fun. You know. For us, we've made it work, and that's something that we knew going into it. Ahead of time, right, Like we sort of mapped out mentally like what is this going to

do to us? What is this gonna do with our family? What is this gonna do to our day to day and sort of mentally preparing for that. We knew that, Okay, we can handle that, and it hasn't been too bad. But what about the dust and the noise? How about those things been, especially with contractors coming in and out. How has that affected like your kids? Yeah, so you know, honestly, it hasn't affected them at all because they're young and can sleep through pretty much anything when it comes to naps.

But dude, for me, it's just been such a distraction. So I work from home, and I sit in my office at the front of the house, and they're doing the work on the back of the house. But even still, I can hear that stuff's going on, even with my earplugs. And I've gotten used to working with these foam earplugs and I roll them up and stick in my ears so I can concentrate. But I they'll know they're back there because I can feel the floors shake sometimes if

they're doing something big. That's something you need to prepare for, not everyone is cut out for sort of living in a dusty, sort of dirty house, because a renovation is just dirty work, like dust gets everywhere, drywall dust. Oh my gosh, don't even get me started. Man, We're still finding that stuff and like nooks and crannies, and so I know for a lot of people that that just wouldn't fly. Yeah, if you're a clean freak, renovation might

not be for you. And Matt, I wanted to mention that this is actually gonna be a two part series. Next week on the show, we're gonna talk about if you do decide to renovate, the steps you need to take because right now we're kind of like pros and cons, And if you say I'm all in for renovation, well, we want to make sure that you know how to find a contractor and no know how to make sure you're not overpaying for that renovation. So we'll get into

that next week. But right after the break, Matt, we're gonna talk about one thing that you can definitely get out of a renovation that you can never get out of a move. Al Right, Joel, Now let's talk about design and utility. Like you hinted ats when you renovate a home and you're customizing your own space. You get to choose the layout and how the new space will

function for you and your family. You get to choose how many maybe bes and bass that you want, and you get to decide the finishes and something about it too. That's just really hard to quantify, though, is just how that's rewarding. And so when you live in a space for a few years, you start dreaming and you start thinking,

how could this work better for us? You know, what if we did this, or what if this wall wasn't here and instead this connected these two spaces and then we could sit here and we could see the kids over there. You start having these sort of dreams and you start painting a picture and when you start to see that come to fruition in reality, like in three

D in real life. Right, there's something about that that's just incredibly rewarding, Like it came from your brain and then you sort of concepted it out and then you start to see it form around you. And yeah, I tell you what that is just incredibly rewarding. It's hard to sort of pinpoint what that is other than just creating something that's cool and fun. That also costs a lot of money. So yeah, that's not something that you

get when you are going to buy a new house. Yeah, you can create the exact layout flow in space design that you want in a rento, right, you can say I want a little dungeon for my children over here, and then it comes to fruition. But you know what, there's no house on the market that has a dungeon for kids that I know of. So the only way that I can get that where I can put my kids when they're bad too far too long, that some

specific criteria. Exactly. That's the kind of thing you can create when you're renovating, but it doesn't exist on the market right when you're moving. Yeah, Matt, And for instance, in your renovation, you've been able to do things exactly the way that you want them, with the exact finishes and layout that you desired, and to go on the open market and to look at houses listed in the same area that have those specific requirements built in man,

it's just so much harder to find. And on top of that, certain specific things that people can build into a renovation. People often decide to renovate as opposed to move because there are certain things that they say over when it comes to the final way that their house looks that they just couldn't find on the open market. So maybe one of those things is a spot for an aging parent where they kind of feel like they

have their own space inside of the same house. And that sort of multi generational housing can be hard to come by, so you feel like you have to renovate

in order to get it exactly like you want. And that's definitely one check in the box in favor of renovating is supposed to moving, that's right, and with moving as well, when you are paying sort of top dollar for a finished home, there are things that you are paying for it that you don't value, but that are there because that's what they had to do to get it to sort of market show ability level. Like they were told by the realtor that, oh, you've got to

have these kind of countertops. Oh, obviously you've got to get the grante, Oh this needs to be this color, you need to have this sort of light fixture. And you bought the house because it was in the neighborhood that you liked, and it was on the block that you liked, but maybe you didn't like all those things, all those finishes that they chose. But fact is, you're still paying for the finishes, regardless if you value them or not. I know sometimes when I see houses go

up for sale in our neighborhood, I'm always looking. I'm always interested, because you know, as a real estate investor, you're just constantly looking at houses. And nothing pains me more than to see a house go up for sale that has just been completely gutted and refinished and I don't like any of the finishes. It's kind of sad. I'm sorry. I don't like the layout and I don't like the finishing choices, and I'm just like, hopefully somebody's gonna like this, but I would be super bummed if

it was in this perfect location. It was the kind of house that I wanted, but a lot of nice finishes that just weren't to my taste. Yeah, exactly. And another thing that's really important a factor in when you're talking about renovating or moving is the stress level. Moving

has its own stressors. I think we think about renovation as being the most stressful option in this case, and I think that's probably true, but moving does have its stressors as well, So if you're trying to get financing, find a new home, and close all within the same time period, that can be really difficult. You're looking to get your old home ready for listening, you're talking about cleaning, painting, getting that stuff up to snuff so you can entice buyers.

Then you have to accept offers and clothes as well as shopping for another house and closing on that. There's gonna be some stress. The great is, in all likelihood you're moving into a home that's closer to being turnkey or or you probably wouldn't be making that decision, right. But but let's just be clear that upfront, the moving is gonna involve a lot of stress, even though it

might not be quite as much as doing a full renovation. Yeah, man, I know, I've seen that selling and then moving into a new home just has like the same stress level as like losing a loved one, like the death of someone that you really love, and that's just terrible. And like you said, though, renovating can be extremely stressful, right, having to constantly deal with contractors and then the noise, like we talked about earlier, it just takes this toll.

It's less intense than moving. But when you spread that out over months and months, and then if you've got a big renovation, right, if you're renovating down to the studs, it can even take close to a year. Right. Could you imagine a full year of basically a part time job, which is typically what it is when you're renovating at home, Well,

at that point in time, Matt. Two, if you're doing that much renovation, usually you're forced to almost do both of these things because you have to move out for a certain period of time and live somewhere else. And that can be a pain, not only financially but emotionally. And it's difficult because depending on where you're living while the renovation is occurring, it's hard to go check on the progress as often as you like. And so that's

another thing to factor in. Two. Can you live through the renovation being in the house that you're in And if not, that just throws a whole other wrench into everything. I mean, and finding that sort of temporary housing, right, Like, that's a definite reality, especially if you're doing a huge renovation.

It's going to keep in mind as well though that's something that could also happen if you're moving right, So say you go in our contract in your house, you get a great offer, you gotta move, but you don't have a new place yet, you're gonna have to end up moving twice, which totally sucks as well. But again,

so renovating is crazy stressful. Um And then also keep in mind too, you might think it might only take six months, but renovating always ends up taking longer than you think it's gonna take because there are just a little hiccups. There's additional unforeseen problems that arise, and so expect some delays. Also, something else that adds to all

the stress man is what we call decision fatigue. That's what we've made like ends of thousands of decisions already up until this point, and we're not even totally done yet. Like literally today I called up Kate. She was out to lunch and because there's a question regarding regarding the shoe molding, like do you want a quarta around or do you want shoe molding, because the contractor asked me, and I defer to Kate on a lot of things. And it's just a little call that you have to make.

It's not a huge deal, but you multiply that no joke, by hundreds and hundreds of decisions. Yeah, last time I was over here, you guys were discussing a notch in the in the in the base molding, right, So it's one of those things that Yeah, there's like there literally are potentially thousands of decisions that you have to make like that that do wear on you overtime. You think it's just gonna be the fun ones like a quick light fixture or a new toilet, but those decisions add up,

they compound, and they just become annoying after a while. Right, only is a toilet decision exciting to you? No, seriously, that's a benefit right of renovating a home, is that you do get to make these decisions, you get to customize. But like you said, after a while, it's just man, it's taxing and it wears on you, and in the end,

it just adds to the stress. So, Matt, for people that are weighing this decision, there are three filters that you need to run this potential decision through, So let's go through those real quick. First is to consider your options and run the numbers. Compare what buying a new house might cost you versus renovating. Don't sugarcoat these numbers. Look at a quote from a contractor and add and also tap on to the length of time that the

contractor says that this renovation will take. At the same time, when you're looking at buying a new home, factor in the increased costs of a higher mortgage, interest rate, property taxes, heating and cooling, potential furniture acquisition, all of those things. Right, you want to factor in all those things. Run the numbers so that you know what you're getting into before you jump in with both feet. I like what you said about not sugarcoating it, because in the end, you're

just sort of tricking yourself. Right in the end, you are the one that's gonna have to pay the cost. You're the one that's gonna have to be delayed, or you're the one that's going to be affected by that timeline, right like that time extended time frame. And so you owe it to yourself to be honest with your self. And then filter number two. These things are harder to quantify, but consider the intangibles as well. It's a lot tougher.

The sort of plug you know your family or friends parks, even likability like that's something that dude, you and I really care about. It's hard to plug this sort of things into a spreadsheet and decide, okay, the computer says yes, Like these are things that you have to make judgment calls on. These are things that you have to sort of make a value judgment on, and that's a lot

harder to do. But I would say that these are just as, if not more important than just looking at the numbers, because what we're talking about here is your quality of life. And in the end, it doesn't really matter if you ended up paying a little bit less because you moved, or maybe you saved a buck because you ended up renovating. But if you're not happy with where you are, then what's the point of it? Yea.

It makes me think about when my parents were moving a few years back, and they were talking about moving like twenty minutes further north of where they were, and we're already about thirty minutes apart, and with traffic in the city of Atlanta, you don't know, if you've heard, it's pretty bad, it's pretty stinking rough. And so I we had to the discussion, I'm like, listen, if you move another twenty minutes north, We're just not going to see you as much, and that's gonna suck. Like, we

don't want to not see you as much. We love hanging out with you, guys, and and so that was just something that I wanted them to make sure they factored in that if they moved twenty minutes further, my niecean Leaf might not have enough charge to get us there. Right, so I don't have enough charge exactly, I might need to get told the rest of the way up. And filter Number three, Matt, that people need to consider is that, ultimately, if you're picky, renovation might be the only way to

get what you want. And I've heard this from so many people that that's why they went down the path of renovation. Even though it was a huge pain, it took longer, it cost more, blah blah blah, they decided to renovate because that's the only way to get what they want. And so just think about how picky you are, whether the options that you want in a house actually exist.

You obviously want to make sure you have the financial ability to afford either one of these choices, but you also want to make sure that you're making a choice that's gonna allow you to be comfortable in the place that you're living over a long period of time, because, as we mentioned earlier, transaction cost and buying and selling homes can crush you. And so you just want to make sure that you're making the right decision up front

so you're not backpedaling a few months down the road. Yeah, it's definitely worth making sure that you know yourself and to know whether or not you're going to ultimately be happy with that decision for sure. Did you put that last one in there about being picky? Did you add that one because of me? Because you know I'm picky. You are picky, But honestly, if I was doing a renovation,

I would be too. And I haven't ever done a major renovation on a house that I lived in, and that's partly because I just don't think I could handle it. I couldn't handle the stress level. I couldn't handle the people being up in my grill to that. Like I can handle a one bathroom, right, I can do that, But this whole process, I think it'd be too much for me. So for me, just knowing myself, I would have to be just really picky about the location and find a house that was close by if I really

needed something different. I just don't think I could handle mentally, physically all that stuff. I couldn't handle a complete blow

out renovation to my house. Dude, I'm actually realizing this now, but I think, uh so previously we've purchased and renovated and sold at home right as an invest and I think kind of going through that once that was the first time we've ever done that, But going through that has prepared us to understand all that goes into a renovation like this, and we kind of got our feet wet, I guess with that one a couple of years ago, and I think that's what it helped us along and

made this renovation on our own home less stressful. Yeah, it's actually really could. And then the first one that you did didn't occur while you were living in it, right, Yeah, that helps a lot. But yeah, I think you have to know yourself to a certain degree, and I know myself well enough to know what I can handle, right, yeah, man, But at the same time, I feel like you could handle it. Yeah, I think we could handle it, but

just not something I'm interested in, right. All right, let's get back to the beer, Matt, we're drinking Burial Beer Company Surf Flax India pale Ale. In my opinion, this is just one of the most delightful beers around. And the word I chose to describe this beer was balanced.

And that's because, man, there's so many I p a s right now are either like hyper juicy hazy, mega hot bombs, and some of the other ones are these run of the middle, old school I p s. And I feel like Surf Flax kind of sits right there in the middle as this perfect beer that's just incredibly well balanced. It's not super multi, the hops really shine, but it's also not over the top too sweet. It really seems to shadow the middle really nicely. Yeah, man,

I would have to completely agree with you. I called it the gold standard because I feel like it really is just like the quintessential gold standard, because I feel like that almost any beer can sort of be measured up to this beer, right, whether it is the sort of New England style or the West Coast, because it is balanced, like you said, when you pour, it doesn't

pour super hazy, doesn't just look like orange juice. It's got a nice kind of golden character to it, and yeah, it's just a good, all around awesome I p a you, and I would recommend Burials Surf Wax. They're out of Asheville, North Carolina, which is one of our favorite beer cities in the country. And thank you for for bringing this one tonight. Man, No problem, buddy, All right, Matt, let's

move on to the final thoughts. When people are considering whether it's better to renovate or move, it's really important to factor in the costs. Right. Our show is called How to Money, and we want people to think about their personal finances, and the costs associated with moving and renovating are both huge, and so it's crucial to make a list of all the potential costs for either option

before you make a decision. And I know it sounds weird, but it's really important too at the same time to factor in potential unexpected costs because those can radically transform what decision you actually decided to make. And aside from the cost there are other factors that you want to consider that don't cost money, things like location, the amount of dust, and sort of life upheaval that will happen,

you know, were you to move versus renovating. The design and utility that you would get out of the space if you were to renovate versus moving, And then obviously stress like either one of these are going to be stressful, But just keep in mind the sort of type of stress that you're willing to sign yourself up for. Moving it's a quick, sort of maybe thirty day to sixty day stressful period of time, versus renovating, which could be a six to twelve month long period of stress in

your life. Not to mention also that personal space that your contractor might be getting all up in if you know what I'm in and so don't forget to run your decision through just a few filters. Run those numbers, compare what a new house would cost versus renovating, and don't sugarcoat those numbers. Also factor in all those intangibles, what about family, friends, parks, bike ability, and ultimately, if

you're picky, renovation might be the only option. Just make sure you know yourself before you dive into a decision. And we're spending this entire episode talking about renovating or moving, right, but again, we wanna, just like we did at the beginning of the episode, we want to challenge everyone to consider the space that you are currently in. Right, just because you have a kid doesn't mean you need to

have an additional two bedrooms. Like automatically look at your space critically figure out what changes you can make that would be affordable and that could also completely transform how you live and use your house. Yeah, it might be as simple as a punk bed for the kids to allow more place base on the floor. There are so many options that you might be able to use inside of your current living situation, so you don't have to make either one of these decisions. All right, man, I

think that's going to be it for this episode. We will have some show notes up on our website, how to money dot com. Be sure to check them out. Yeah, and if you like this podcast and you found it helpful, well, guess what, there's more help on our Facebook group. It's a really fun group where you can ask questions and help out your fellow personal finance enthusiasts. So just go to Facebook and search how to Money. You'll find us

right there. All right, buddy, until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.