Pursuing Happiness In All the Wrong Ways #611

their goal, how can I be happier? Which is typically the wrong question to ask if you want to be happy. That is true, I mean, although I mean that is exactly what we're talking about. But we're gonna talk about happiness in a more lasting and in a more fulfilling kind of way. That's what we're going to be talking about today. And also we are going to talk about money, because money certainly plays an important role when it comes to our pursuit of happiness. But okay, so real quick

before we get into a jewel. So the neighborhood that we moved to, it's great, you know, we like it there. There are a lot of kids running around, which is also a great thing. It's a lot of fun to see the kids you know, running around playing. This also means that there are a lot of kids selling stuff.

There's a lot of entrepreneurial kids in your hood, like literally going door to door and being like, hey, would you like to buy some of whatever that they made some bracelets, uh, as well as different stands that are set up along the street, that kind of thing. And there were some neighborhood kids and they had set up

like a holiday treats table or stands. Sounds nice, sounds festive, right, Uh, they're selling hot chocolate for three dollars a cup, along with like candy canes and stuff like what is the Starbucks? I'm all for entrepreneurship here, but that's how three dollars a cup. It's a lot of money. Kind of blew me away. And Kate, that's not really love the kids to participate, Yes, and we do, or I'll say that Kate does because she went ahead and purchase a single cup.

You were over there, arms crossed, well and she frowned, which I was. You know, they had the hot chocolate when I came up from work and they were explaining They're like, oh yeah, we got this, and I was like, oh yeah, how much? Really? Charged, and she told me I couldn't believe it, and so like what I told her, I was like, why didn't you negotiate? Because I felt

like this was a perfect opportunity to teach him another lesson. Well, I mean, just to talk about it a little bit and not just be like okay, whatever you say, but literally to push back a little bit, and you don't have to be a jerk about it, right, Like you can be like, oh man, three dollars, that's a really expensive a couple of hot chocolate. How about I'd like to retire Sunday kids about three cups for five dollars, right, or or even just been like okay, what about how

about one dollar? Just just to start the conversation. I think there's a way that you can have that conversation. But Kate kind of like rolled her eyes at me and just like, of course this is what you would say. But do I mean, what would you have done in that situation? Do you feel like that that's frugal or is that a cheap move to negotiate? What's from patented

reaction to you? Now, by the way, it's just eyes roll, which I get eye roll, But yeah, what's your tike, though, I think it's okay to be like, hey, guys, what if we did yeah, yeah, three for six bucks or something like that, Like, well, we're gonna go for volume here. You guys want to be the costco of hot chocolate. That's how that's how you gotta roll. But yeah, I mean you probably they're there. It depends on how much hard work they put into it and stuff like that.

And if there's like a peppermint stick coming out of it and all that jazz, it's like it's I would just pay them money if you're interested, or keep walking if you're not. Maybe I wasn't there to experience all the decor that they poured, Like yeah, maybe I just pictured a table with like some hot chocolate that's not

so hot. But it just to me seemed like a lesson, like not only for like those kids to learn how to talk to an adult about the price of something, but even for our kids, right like for them to to witness a little bit of negotiation, for them to understand the value of a dollar. I felt that was a massive opportunity for them just to learn firsthand, like

a real life interaction. Um And so I don't know, I think there's a way to do it, as long as you're not a jerk about it, right, Like I'm not talking about being all my you know, scrooge like and being like are you kidding and like over training to take workhouses. Yeah. I think I want to incentivize young entrepreneurship too, And I think if it gets kids excited, I'm willing to fork over extra money, even if it feels like it's overcharging, because man, what a good experience.

The negotiation can be a good experience too, if you're doing it in a lighthearted and friendly way. But that was my take. Yeah, But I also think that paying and paying the money buying the hot chocolate, by supporting these kids in their little entrepreneurs want to encourage them for sure, Yeah, is good, And you don't want to deflate them by being like, well, guys, did you miss the pricing class that was second grade down last month?

Did you miss the numbers? Yeah? I guess I just worry that we're over encouraging these kids because we also bought some expence of bracelets last like a few months as well, and they I don't know, maybe they keep coming back to the West and they keep coming to your house for some reason, because you keep buying them. Everyone else knows to say no, But it's like written across our forehead except for you. All right, well, I like it, and if you don't have the money to

pay for it, then they don't. But either way, encouraging kids in these pursuits is a good thing. That should be the bigger lesson. And if they're your kids, encourage them to do the same and steal all your neighbors money and so they can buy their own stuff. It's just one giant cycle, what's right, Or at least let me get some like exactly? All right, let's mention the beer we're having on the episode today. This one is called Mile High Salute. It is a Checha sour, which

I've never heard of this time before. But we will give our thoughts on this one at the end of the episode. This one is by Mutation, brewing right around the corner from us where we live. But Matt, let's get onto it. Let's move on to the topic at hand, pursuing happiness in all the wrong ways. And of course, we hope all of our listeners had a great Christmas. This is our second episodes since Christmas so um, we we hope it was a good one for every one

that was super enjoyable. We're still very much in the holiday spirit, of course, yes, hopefully you are as well. Well. It's it's interesting to me when we were thinking of this episode, it made me think of kind of the joy that our kids have on their faces Christmas morning when they run down faces copious presence under the tree, and it was like a joy like they were beating right and so thrilled to get to open these presents, to get to tear them to shreds and see what

was inside. But uh, that joy that they have at seven am, right when they're so thrilled to open up everything under the tree, it doesn't look the same later in the day, right, Uh. And I think that's a story that's the same thing for adults and kids alike. There's frequently like a post present let down that almost all of us experience. You kind of come down from

that high for sure. Either there was something that we wanted that we didn't get, or the gifts that we did receive they're not quite as good as they looked in TV, or there there's some assembly required and wait a second, we forgot the battery, the batteries of the package. Exactly. Okay, so very small, quick tangent. Did you ever have a present as a kid that you did not receive that you had all your Christmas hopes pinned too? I'm sure I did. For me. It was the classic Hungry Hungry Hippos.

I think we may have talked about this on the show Record is the South and the Yeah, I completely, I totally have my heart set on that game because the commercials were awesome. Those kids mash those levers of the hippo gobble up on those marbles. But I don't get it. And that's all my parents remember from that Christmas was that disappointment. But there's no hungry hungry hippen.

Well it is. It's a good game, but it's not as good as it looks on the commercials now right, and disappointment yes, and in that vein right, the anticipation of Christmas morning is almost always better than the payoff. And and something close to the world's toys are owned by three percent of the world's population, which is American children, And so are we happier? Are our kids happier? Because that's the case because they get this massive amount of

all the toys are created in the world. No, I would say, not necessarily, and in fact, the opposite is often true. Right, The same is often the case though when it comes to amassing more wealth, there's this there's a point of diminishing returns. And today on the show, we're going to talk about how happiness levels are affected by your financial standing and how they aren't Deep dive

on happiness today on HTM. That's right, yeah, and of course everyone probably are already knows this, but all the money in the world is not going to make you happy. Just like getting every single present on your list, how that likely only brought you a fleeting sense of joy

doesn't last all that long. Uh. And so ultimately, like, what it's going to take is some introspection, is going to take some self examination to fully understand what it is that will bring you fulfillment and happiness, not just

more money. Uh. And it might be honestly, it might be a touch ironic coming from the guy as you talk about money three times a week, right, Like earning, earning money, saving investing money, these are all great things, but it's also crucial to put money in its proper place. And on the service. This is probably something that you already know, right, But do you have a deeper understanding

of it? Uh? You might have the head knowledge, but do you have the richer understanding that comes from experiencing it and living it out. Because I think while many of us would say, yeah, like, I totally agree with that statement, right, like, more money, it's not gonna make me happier, Well, we actually end up living our lives in ways that contradict that statement. And the reality is that it's often not just the pursuit of money that we think will make us happy, but it's the things

that money can afford us. I just mentioned Scrooge, but you know, chances are you probably saw some version of the Dickens classic Christmas Carol. There's a lot of good ones, bad ones. But I wonder if a lot of folks I thought about the I thought about this last time I watched it, because like Scrooge was obsessed with money, right, just like that the thing in and of itself. And I think today oftentimes we are drawn not to money itself,

but the things that money can afford us. That the things that money can can buy us, and we think that it almost feels unrelatable to picture somebody who's just like stacking wads of buy a lambo with it in exactly it's um, but they didn't have those kind of things. Wait way back then, you're right, Yeah, it's it's the it's the thinking that shopping incessantly. We've just gotten more sophisticated with how it is that we are misled, right, Like,

it's sneaky, it's pernicious. But we're often tricked into thinking that there's just a variety of things that will make us happy. It's a false hope. And so we're going to dive into a lot of some of those different things that we think, uh, don't actually bring about happiness, and we'll make sure to end the episode talking about the right way to pursue happiness as well, and kind of how we think about money has a lot to

do with it. But let's get into let's talk about maybe, um, what about like an unexpected windfall mat like how happy would it make you? Do you think if you randomly had ten tho dollars deposited into your accounts tomorrow? No questions asked that you could put towards the lamb, but those strings attached that you can put towards a lambar or whatever you wanted. Like, do you think that would move the needle for you? Yeah? I mean if you said you want ten thousand bucks and be like sure,

you be like what, I'll take it. It's like it's like playing a monopoly and it's like bank error in your favor collector hundred dollars or something like that, and you're like, what amazing? Like to get all about it? Just money gifted to you in that way. It would put a smile on your face. I think would put a smile on mine as well. Well. Uh, the thing is, it would, but it wouldn't do it for very long.

And that's because the TED, the TED organization of Ted Talk Fame, ran an experiment based on ten thousand dollar donations to folks who lived in low income countries and others who lived in high income locations. And what did they find, Matt, Well, they found that the folks who had lower salaries, the ones in countries like Brazil, Indonesia, and Kenya, gained a lot more happiness than folks who lived in renter countries. That was, their their happiness was

even more long lasting. And that's not terribly shocking. Uh. If you're on the earlier side of your wealth building journey, a ten thousand dollar lumps some could help jump start your progress a whole lot helping you, like acts a big chunk of student loans that have been hanging out in your life, or allowing you to max out a roth ira for the first time ever. Maybe that's been a goal for years, and it's like, boom, this lump some money fell into my lap. Now I can do

it in one fell swoop. That allows you to, you know, get the compounding return started earlier than most folks get to, which of course is a big win. But for folks are further along in their wealth building journey, it's helpful. It's a helpful study to consider because as you move up the money gears, it certainly seems like you should be putting less and less emphasis on your net worth from a happiness standpoint, and so a windfall, yeah it might be nice, but even a lump sum of cash

has diminishing returns rather quickly. Yeah, you know, And it's it's not like you want to start making bad money decisions on purpose to curb the growth of your money. Like it's taking a world one k loan. It'start giving it all the way. Let me get hit with that tempercent penalty, right, It's more about just rethinking the role

of money in your life. And a Warton study actually from last year that gave some helpful new insights because they found that a higher income is linked to increase happiness, but largely because of the increased control that you then have over everyday decisions in your life. Basically just allows

for greater autonomy. And so it seems to me that more money is a better predictor of maybe emotions than of actual happiness because obviously, when you don't have enough money, like it's it's hard not to like acutely feel that need right if you can't pay the bills um. But like, basically money it helps solve quite a few problems for folks in that lower income space, at least until a certain point. Traditionally that's that seventy five dollar mark by

Nobel researchers and economists uh Daniel Koneman. Thanks to inflation, it might be more like eighty thou dollars. Now I don't know, maybe, but it's also important to note though that we are living in the richest country in the history of the world, and it's easy to see that it's often just a band aid and not a permanent fix for many folks. And what's needed in reality is just a deeper look not only at their money, but how it is they pursue other things in life, and

how it is that they spend their time. Yeah. Yeah, and how do we know that we're so rich? Well, statistics for one, but yeah, the numbers just just just prove it. Right. When you look at the US is very very rich, exactly. Yeah, when you look at overall net worth and incomes and an opportunity any we are country ranks super high on so many different metrics, and so we definitely have an abundance of material wealth in

this country. The toy stat I referenced earlier, it's just another pointer to the fact that we have tons of money right floating around in this country. Of the world's toys to three percent of the world's population, there's a big discrepancy there. But the self care trend, I would say, gives us another window into just how prosperous we've become.

And we're hoping that the Matt and I at least we're hoping that the self care trend calms down a little bit, because it's often it's not making us happier, and it's costing us big money. At the same time. There's a recent episode actually of the Money with Katie podcast We Think She's Awesome. She talked about how spending less on self care and taking less time to pursue a beauty regimen actually helped her to feel more empowered,

which I thought was cool. I appreciated her thoughts on that, and then at the same time, I read an article in Vox which came to a similar conclusion. The article was titled I used all the best stuff for a week and it nearly broke me. And what this author what she seemed to detail was an increased bent towards perfectionism. Uh. We would call it the Didero effect, right where everything else around you starts to look a little shabby in line to some of these new items you've brought into

your life. And it was interesting to see Matt that her experiment of having the nicest, newest, coolest, instagram worthy stuff for a month actually led her to less happiness and worst social relationships. Um, and I think that's a real problem that we face when we try to make ourselves feel better through retail therapy and the stepped up self care edgemen right, that we put too much of a focus on things less of a focus on the things that actually matter, and and that's in large part

where we fall short. Yeah, I mean, there's nothing wrong with like a nice bottle of face serum right from the man himself with oils or something like that, But it can easily become a slippery slip, right, like, because first it's beauty products, it's self care. Next it's upgrading your professional wardrobe, you know, but with the excuse that maybe you're doing it for your rear, this is an investment,

or you're doing it just because you deserve it. Like we would say that self care that will actually translate to higher levels of well being is going to be less consumption based, Like, for instance, a walk in the woods to distress a proper amount of sleep sounds like maybe the best kind of self care that's out there, instead of staying up to midnight scrolling Instagram to the bed on time, that direct to consumer model that these

companies have gotten so good at. But these more like less money focused, less consumption based ways to increase your well being are going to move the needle a whole lot more than a a new purse or fancy new bed sheets or something like that, because like many Americans have just come to buy into the self care ethic to the point that it's just costing the money that they don't have, and it's not doing much on the on the happiness front either, And many times it's creating

the opposite effect, right, Like remember the control an autonomy point from earlier on from that study, the more money you spend on self care, the more your bank account is going to shrink. Uh, And with that your autonomy is shrinking as well. And something that's important to keep in mind. We think that we're purchasing happiness, but instead

we're purchasing our way further into debt. And you're also creating a habit that's almost insatiable because there is no end to the lust for more goods or more stuff. And so yeah, if you kind of start to go down this path, you'll find that it's really hard to recognize when you're going overboard, and it's hard to see that wait a second, it feels like I'm getting momentary bursts of happiness as I pursue this route, but in

the end you're actually left unhappier. But it's just hard to point a finger on it, and so you keep going down it until you've gone quite a ways. Yeah, and you have left some of your autonomy kind of behind because you don't have as much financial breathing room. We're also not saying, by the way that our bodies don't matter, and that we would say, you know, taking time to work out as clutch that self care you mentioned, it's not. It's not the worst thing not to buy

a bottle of face serum if that's your thing. I don't really have any sort of facial regiment. My wife says I should probably adopt one, but I don't even know what that means or looks like. I don't. I don't either. Earlier this year, though, I started wearing a very small amount of cologn though, because I was just like, you know what, I want to have a smell, and so that's something I do know. It's okay to splurge just a little bit. You know, the brute smells good

on you. I'm a big fan of route. There's something about smelling like your grandpa that I feel like residents with millennials, do you get Yes, exactly. There's nothing wrong with like getting massage every once in a while, or trying to eat healthier and spending more money on more expensive organic foods things like that. That's totally fine. Taking

care of yourself is good. Like we we want to push you in that direction, but just don't buy into the treatoself self care mantra that that suddenly insinuates that by purchasing fancier products, you're gonna be a better you. You're gonna be a happiness happier person. Your happiness levels so you're gonna go off the charts. That that is just marketing, and it's marketing. That sounds good, right. We want to buy into it because we want that feeling.

But the truth is the feeling is fleeting, and it actually often ends up leading to lower levels of overall happiness. So how else, maybe, are we duped by some of these marketing techniques? How how else are we lead to consider buying happiness in our lives? Well, they're there are a couple major ways in which we fork over a lot of money and in the thought, in the hope that it's going to make us happier. Matt, Let's detail a couple more and we'll get to those right after this.

All right, man, we are back from the break and dude, we were just talking about how self care. How it's it's kind of having its moment, right, but essentially like like in reality, it's just consumerism, right, It's just a new spin on an old story. But continuing this thread of buying stuff homeownership that might be the ultimate form of like potentially mindless consumptions, going straight to the sacred count.

It's like, yeah, I mean because like a lot of people, they talk about buying a home as an investment um but there's a lot less truth to it than most people think. In fact is there are a lot of folks out there for whom renting makes the most sense, but they're still drawn to buying their first home like a moth drawn towards the light. Uh. And also because it's just such an emotional purchase. This is a category that I think folks they often tend to stretch their

budget on the term house poor. It was invented for a reason. There are a lot of folks who are house poor. But does that new home actually make us happy. Well, we would argue that not nearly as much as we're hoping it will. A recent study found that, similar to the ten thousand dollar cash and fusion that you mentioned, Joel Well, buying a new home only produces a short

term happiness boost. It's likely for multiple reasons, but it's also because there are walls to paint, there are toilets to fix, right, things like that, taxes to be paid. Maybe you realize the closing attorney didn't include waste management in your mortgage, and you're like, what we gotta pay for trash? Now? How is that not something thing that's included in my mortgage? If you're in City of Atlanta, that's that's like extra bucks a year or something like that,

a lot of money. And on tope of that, if we've overspent, you know, that mortgage payment like it's just hanging over ahead for the next thirty years and it's likely only going to be something that we see increase as the property taxes also increase. Sure, yeah, so it's not the buying a home is bad, of course, right, we met you and I own homes, we own rental properties.

We're not we own multiple homes. We're not against home ownership, but it's just that we have often in our culture, we've inflated this purchase in our minds, thinking that that we're gonna get long lasting happiness, which tends not to materialize, like this home is going to make me happy, right, it's but what you know, what is it? They say, matt home is where the heart is, right, and so it's not just the walls in the structure, and this

sounds that sounds really lame. I'm sorry, but you're gonna quot the magnetic zero song. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, that's wherever I'm with you. That's true, that's good. Yeah, No, there's that that people who are inside of it ten years ago, I guess it. But we just tend to think like, oh man, this location and this this particular home, that it is going to make me happy. And I'm not gonna say that I haven't derived some satisfaction from

home own home ownership. I have, but the realities that could have rented a very similar home in a similar location gotten a lot of the same vibes, and so we just we overrank how happy it's going to make us and the folks that ran that study you mentioned, Matt, they boiled it down to this, They said, we aren't good at predicting what will make us happy. And I thought that was profound for economists making, you know, writing

a white paper. But for many millennials who are still saving up for a down payment, they put home ownership on this pedestal and they I think they think it's going to solve some of their problems, right, or maybe a lot of their problems, that that once I get this thing, it's going to do something that nothing else

could do for me. And owning a home can be a great thing for individuals, for families, providing something that is I will say, more than just a roof of your head, right, Like for for many Americans, their home

does end up becoming one of the largest assets. That's not what we want to be the case, but that is the reality for a lot of folks that I can going to home for ten years or something like that, and you just like you barely invest in the market because you're banking on the fact that your home is appreciating.

That's you're big. Like that does become your biggest asset because you haven't invested enough in other areas also, I would say it's fun in a lot of ways to own your own place, like the customization right that you can that you can have like paint, paint the walls whatever color you want. There's no landlord to tell you no, no, no, sorry, hot pinks off limits. There's also no landlord to say, hey, actually, um, I'm selling this property. And so you're gonna need to

move anything like that. Like you can stability there as long as you can pay that mortgage, you can stay. But in no way is that this continual happiness producer, and it can actually have the opposite effect if it becomes a massive drag on your monthly budget. And so it's important to go into home ownership with the right mindset.

Some of these bigger things that we think are financially intelligent and we're banking on the fact that they're also going to make us like happier people, Well, the reality is often a lot different, and that for a lot of folks, homeownership can become more of a financial drag and a happiness drag. That's right, man. We pin too many of our hopes, I think, on homeownership, and so far we've talked about things that you can buy, right, whether it's beauty products, self care items, or services. I

guess we've talked about buying homes. Let's let's talk about maybe a different arena, uh, somewhere else that we seek to find happiness, and that's in the work that we perform. Uh. And so I'll start this out by saying, like, we've got a lot of friends in the Fire community, right, which is the financial independence retire early community. And it seems that a decent swath of those folks that they have a negative view of work, right, like where they're

trying to escape the rat race. They're trying to escape the nine to five. And really a large reason why the Fire movement was able to gain steam, why they were able to gain traction at over the past decade, was because just because it was a rejection of the achievement based, status pursuing view of work, where all your worth is determined by your title or by the letters that come after your name because of the education that

you've achieved. There's a lot of good in that, right, because it's like, who wants to be based on their value to be based on that mostly or solely exactly. Yeah, But the thing is like that pendulum. It was pretty far to one side, right, and so it swung all the way over to the other end of the spectrum in an over correction. But of course we like to take a more nuanced approach to the work that we perform. And you know, we think that neither the rejection nor

the blind embrace of work will yield us the most happiness. Right, Like, of course work is important. We spend a lot of our waking hours at work, So not hating your job would be great. Uh. The ability to see the value that you're bringing into the world, how you're making it a better place. That is an important part of a purposeful life for sure. But we also don't want you to be defined by your job, by what it is

that you do. Yeah, but we've also I think we've pushed a popular cultural myth of the fact that your work is supposed to make you happy and you should enjoy what you do every day, so your passionate. Yeah. That that and that has I think set up a

lot of people for dissatisfaction. They have thought that there nine to five should be something where it's like, I love the people I work with and the work I do, And yeah, and I get paid a ton, right, giving me tons of free time to do whatever I like and browse on Instagram whenever I want to or whatever. But like, the truth is that almost nobody has that job like and and even for people who enjoy the work they do one, it doesn't mean that they naturally

gravitated towards towards it to begin with. There's a lot of people who find themselves in a job and they're like, they find the value in it, even if it's not something they intentionally sought out. And so it's it's really interesting to see how some people end up massively happy in work that they didn't didn't necessarily think was going

to make them happy. I think so much of it comes down to a mindset and and sometimes on top of it, if your work is solid and it allows you enough money to pay the bills and to have enough free time, like, you don't have to love your job. You can love all the other stuff outside of your job. But the reality is, like with million Americans, like, not every single one of us is going to absolutely love

what we do every day. And even when you do like your job, it doesn't mean that every single day is like the best thing ever, right, and Matt, we like what we do here. We get to get to work with your best boody, get to drink mirror, get to talk about stuff that matters to us. That that is a really good thing and it's taken us a lot of years to get to this point. Even still, that doesn't mean that every single day we come in

here with a smile on our faces. Maybe we should, maybe we should, but like, that's just not how it works, because there's business stuff to get done, and so not every day is like this walk in the park, even when you like what you do. And that's exactly that's important to mention to you honestly, Like the way you're talking about it, it kind of makes me think of relationships, right, And it's easy to fall into love, right, but what that is typically it's just infatuation. That's not true love.

What true love is and committing to a long term relationship is working hard at something. Of course, you're this is someone who you're attracted to, that you're drawn to, that you maybe want to spend the rest of your of your life with, you have a lot in common with, hopefully, and yeah, but you enjoy the way their mind work. But it doesn't mean that, like you said, with work, that it's going to be rainbows and butterflies all the time.

And sometimes that is what makes the relationship stronger over time, is the fact that, like you had hurdles, that you have had difficulties, and then it's like, wait a second, look at what we've come through together, and that makes the love even better, even richer. Exactly. Yeah, So while we're talking about relationships, I think that's another one that's important to tackle as well, because I think a lot of people also pin their happiness on relationship. You know,

the belief that relationships will make you happy. It's it's fairly ubiquitous, but it is also incredibly flawed. Why else what over forty four million folks in the U s Hop over to dating apps but to find someone who's gonna make them happy. Of course, that's why these apps crush, uh, And there are so many folks on there, it's something

like three fifty million globally. But the thing is, the research confirms this behavior as well, because, according to the Harvard Study of Adult Development, the biggest predictor of happiness are stable relationships, especially long term romantic relationships. Uh, and not only that, you know, there's plenty of studies and research out there that have shown that satisfying relationships lead to better health. It leads to people living longer as well.

And so why this sort of sounds like this is a slam dunk argument to go out and find true love. But it would be a massive mistake to think that this alone is going to bring about lasting happiness. Like you said, with finding a job that you love, it's not about necessarily finding a job that you love, as opposed to maybe creating a job that you that you love and finding the things about it that you love and being the kind of person who can enjoy their

work even if it's not the ideal scenario exactly, dude. Yeah, and of course we we all know if folks who aren't actually married, right, who don't have a partner or a significant other, and they're out there uh quite happy, they're living their best lives. So it's not completely dependent on finding somebody else in order to have happiness for sure. Yeah, that there is no it's it's the partner is not

going to solve all the things that ails you. And if you think they are, and if that's what you're looking for, you're actually probably gonna make them unhappy in your question for happiness, like both of you will end up placing too much on that relationship. You're putting too much on their shoulder. You're asking you to do something that it can't do. You're asking a person to do

something that they can't do. Fulfill me right now, well and all, the likelihood of those singles being happy has a lot to do with other important relationships in their lives as well, Matt, like those with friends and family. And so you only need to look as far as the Transformation on book the Top five Regrets of the

Dying to see this. Interestingly, three of those regrets, three of them have more to do with self actualization, but the other two are about working less and pursuing friendships more. And especially, you know, given how much time is being spent alone these days, there were recent statistics and their

mind blowing. I mean, I think we're all tired of hearing the word pandemic at this point, but there is basically a pandemic of loneliness, and people feel more on their own, they feel more disconnected from the people around them in their community. From friends and family than ever before, So folks run the risk of having more relational regrets at the end of the of their lives than even

ten twenty years ago. We're often choosing what feels like real interactions on social media over actual, real conversations and time together. And those interactions on social media they feel, they seem like they're going to be real, but they

don't provide nearly the same happiness benefit. Yeah, exactly, Like, yeah, you might have like five followers on Instagram or five thousand friends on Facebook, but how many of those relationships actually have depth and actually have substance to them that would lead to like like meaningful fulfillment. Yeah, your boy Christiano Ronaldo has like five million Instagram followers and how many How of those followers does he have deep connections with?

None of them? Right or almost none of them? And there is something to be said about that. It's like, at what point does that follower count or do those online interactions matter? And I would say they don't have much influence for the most part over are happiness, and in fact, because we spend so much time doing them, it's often having the opposite effect. And Neil Hilborn he once said, I'm not saying you'll find meaning the meaning

of life in other people. He said, I'm saying other people are the life to which you provide meaning to. And I think that's really profound to think. When we stopped looking to find meaning in other people in the relationships around us, and we seek to provide meaning instead to the people around us, that's when our happiness levels are going to go up and our deeper sense of

purpose is going to be felt. Exactly if you look at it through like the consumption production model, it has more to do with pouring into other people's lives, and hopefully you have people who are doing that around you as well, who are pouring into your life. Like it kind of comes down to again when we're talking about social media, it comes down to like quality over quantity, right, And while you might have hundreds or thousands or hundreds

of millions if you're a soccer superstar. By the way, you know, I'm a more of a messy guy Fernaldo Personally, I thought you were. He's awesome. I love him, But the quality of your relationships. Relationships matter a ton because obviously, if you have somebody in your life, whether it's a friend or certainly a partner, and if it's a bad relationship, if it's a toxic relationship, you're going to see the

opposite of happiness. Right, Like, you're gonna you're gonna have increased stress levels, your your health probably is going to be worse. I guess you could take it to its ultimate conclusion, and maybe there's research that shows that you're not gonna live as long. Basically, all the opposite things that fulfilling relationships provide poor quality or even toxic relationships,

I've got to think of the opposite. Yeah, well, so I think the basic formula probably for greater relational happiness is to spend less time alone, spend more time with the people that matter to you, and then act as though you are actively seeking to make them happier. Right.

And the more and the more you seek to do that, the more you're pouring into those relationships in a way that benefits the other party, the more your happiness is going to be impacted, And the more they're gonna be for you when it counts to Like, the more you're gonna have people around you when hard things happen, and like you need those friendships to support you then in lean times that you might have. That's right, man, I

could not agree more. That's certainly a way to increase the amount of happiness, uh, and some of the satisfaction that we're able to garner from the different relationships in our lives. But right after the break, we're gonna continue along and we're actually going to dive into some more scientific, some nerdier terms that we think will ultimately help you to distinguish between some of the different types of happiness.

Like essentially, we're gonna boil it down to two different types of happiness, and we think that there is room for both of these types of happiness in your life, and we'll get to those right after this. Okay, we're gonna keep this happiness conversation going. Mat This is making me happy as we speak. The happiness train. I thought you're gonna say, keeping on rolling. And by the way, we have train tracks like real close do where we live. I saw the other day trains. There was a truck

on the train tracks, but it had like wheels, train wheels. Yeah, he was doing repairs. It's so funny. Did you see it on Saturday? Maybe it was so cool. I've never seen one before I have. So I've seen those trucks driving around town before, but I've never actually seen one on the tracks where it had the steel little steel wheels drop with the tires propelling it along. I thought that was awesome, look like the cool thing of it.

I was like, totally agree. If I have a job after podcasting, maybe it's repairing train guy the drive the truck that that's allowed to drive on the train tracks. And my son would be so jealous. Yeah, what I saw it. I was like, West, you look, buddy, he's just like train truck. I was like, that's what I would call it too. But that is somehow the combination of my two everything's dead. Well, let's talk about happiness, Matt, because it's amazing just how sometimes those little things can

make our kiddos so happy seeing a training things. I'm always amazed seeing Christmas lights, even just a couple of weeks ago, going to see some free Christmas lights with my kids seeing them through their eyes, but their eyes light up and it's like, this is the coolest thing. It's not even something new, it's just an experience that they get to enjoy. Um And But and I would say, maybe we're getting a bit far along in the podcast

to define terms, but we've been talking about. What we've been talking about here largely is the difference between hedonic and you demonic happiness. Right, And you've you've heard us talk about the hedonic treadmill before on the show Typic. Listening for any period of time typically a bad thing.

It's where you spend a bunch of money and you get that quick little sugar rush, that little, quick little peak of happiness, but then you've got to keep you return right back to your baseline of happiness, right, and then if you don't don't actually get anywhere, continue Like let's say you started a skincare regiment and your skins looking at then you're like, I don't have the money to keep it up. Well, you're gonna be less happy

now because you started and it was taken away. But hedonic happiness is centered around the bliss that momentary pleasures can provide, while you donomic happiness has much more to do with meaningful activities that boost our ability to self actualize, which typically brings about more lasting happiness in our lives. And so you might think that we're here to throw all those forms of hedonic happiness out the window, you might say, Joela Matte, they only want those those long

form ways to boost our happiness. But that is not

true actually, because remember what we're doing right now. Part of the philosophy of our show even is that we drink a craft beer while we talk about money, because we care about even some of those a few of those hedonic abilities to enjoy happiness in here now, some of the tangible physical realities that do actually contribute our happiness if used properly, and if you're in a decently stable personal finance position, well, we think it's important to

find the right balance. And even though we come down pretty hard on mindless consumption, that doesn't mean that you can't enjoy some of the nice easy life in the here and now. And that's yeah, one of the things that craft beer does force Matt I feel like in

a lot of ways, that's right. Yeah. What's interesting is that it seems that oftentimes when it comes to hedonic happiness like that comes about by us spending money, whereas when we're pursuing you demonic happiness, oftentimes we're spending time, which is the whole time and money parallel has always

been one that's that's fascinated me. So, like you're basically talking about how we're not gonna we're not gonna like drop the hammer on hedonic happiness, um, which would maybe be a would that be a decent name for a band, But we're also not going to glorify you demonic happiness, right, Like, we're not going to say that that you should avoid worldly pleasures in an attempt to live a mission driven

life of the time. And if you're not working towards your goals every second of the day, then you're just a worthless human being. That would be a puritanical existence that we're not seeking to strive after. But you are listening to an episode on happiness, and so you know, we we do want to encourage you to find ways to maybe like reasonably maximize both hedonic happiness and you demonic happiness, and we think that that's going to be the best way to to to leave a happier life overall.

You've got to find that balance and you've got to figure out which aspects of each of those types of happiness ring most true to you. Yeah, all right, So how do you do that? Well? When it comes to increasing the amount of hedonic happiness in your life. The more consumption oriented version, well, the simple mechanism we'd recommend is to budgets, or at the very least to track your spending us right. And by doing this, you're gonna be able to see where your dollars are actually going.

You'll be forced to confront the actual facts on the ground, and then you can simply ask yourself if you like how you're spending your money, Like do I like spending seven fifty dollars a month eating out? Or could I spend that money in a way that's going to move the needle in a bigger way for me? Like, you know what, I didn't realize I was spending that much. I thought I was spending three fifty a month eating out. That sounds like more like what I should we spend.

I can dial it back because then that means I'm gonna be able to take two more trips a year with family or friends, like create better memories, and I feel like, right now, it's just going down the toilet. Or you might say, actually, no, I want to spend a thousand dollars a month eating out, because these are always relational experiences with people that are closest to Yeah, exactly, and that's fine too, But so much of it's about being intentional with your money rather than frittering it away.

And if you want to make the most use of it to boost your hedonic happiness in the biggest way, you're gonna want to track it. And then you're gonna want to kind of hold that up to the light against your values and say, like, well, am I actually spending my money the way that it's going to produce the best results on the happiness front for me? Exactly?

And I like that you pointed out that it could also be somebody spending money on trips, because it's it's not that all hedonic happiness should be derived from items, because experiences, like you said, trips, vacations, going out to eat with friends, those are oftentimes you know, most folks consider those experiences, but those can also be a form of hedonic happiness because typically you receive that that short term high, right like you go out to eat, the

food is delicious, you are enjoying it in the moment. Maybe there's great cocktails, you see some other friends, it's a fun time. But then after that, all that's gone in the same way. And you know, some folks would make an argument to say that, well, there's memories being formed, and so there's are maybe a richer form of hedonic happiness that's taking place. Maybe there's a little you demonic

bunts you're getting at the same time. Exactly, Yeah, but I mean, oftentimes unmonic like it it comes down to the like I guess, the work that you're performing. But essentially, like you said, it's it's holding it up to the light, it's aligning, it's it's finding alignment between what it is that you want to spend your money on and how

it is that you're actually doing it. And so yeah, we want you to boost your hedonic happiness by intentionally spending your own money, and then you're able to boost

your u demonic happiness by intentionally spending your time. You know, like like our society, like us included, sometimes we we tend to always use the term wealth to refer to money, but you know, like they're all sorts of different ways that we think you can be wealthy in this life, right, Like you can have relational wealth, you can have creative wealth.

Even just like you know, as we're talking about you demonic happiness just missional wealth that allows you to feel like you're making a difference in the world, pindable wealth of knowledge that comes from reading books and contending information that that growth that's taking place gives you an internal richness, right exactly. It's like essentially what we're talking about here, all the different types of wealth that allow you to

self actualize. We're talking about mass Thow's hierarchy of needs, and that is at the tippy top, and that is I mean, it's kind of there's a reason that it's literally at the pinnacle of the of the actual trying because you've gotta have all those other bases covered before you can really think about that. And that's why you mentioned the s like reference earlier on Matt and how Yeah, if you're making a year barely making ends meet, then it's going to be hard to focus on some of

these other levels of happiness. So money does play a role in your ability to pursue some of these other things. The more money you have in the bank account, the more it allows you to have some of this free time. But the problem is a lot of us don't take that when we have it, and so I don't know, but it's still it's still a very functional thing to

talk about. But like, there's a reason why we have a show called How the Money, because we still think it's really important, right, and especially given kind of the the ability that we have in this country, which is, like we said, one of the richest country in the history of the world. We have more opportunity to maximize our money, to make smart decisions, to buy ourselves, more

ability to do some of these things. And so I guess someone might ask the question like, well, why do you guys spend all your time your work lives essentially dedicated to talking about money, And you know, we would say, well, handling money, well is probably it's it's one of the main tools in life that allows you to pursue other

things to be more importance. It allows you to actually have more time thinking about that the unonomic happiness components, and so many folks don't know the basics, right, which is why we're on a mission. We're on a mission to change that. But this is also why we don't get super nerdy, incredibly technical with the with some of these other deeper aspects of personal finance, because those don't

really matter all that much either. And you're talking about the difference between doing the things spot on and then spending an inordinate amount of time optimizing ticket an extra three percent. Right, And so we want to redefine the focus of money. We want to say, listen, these are the things that really matter. We want you to get these things right. We want you to handle money well because it impacts all these other areas of your life.

But it's also not the end all be all right, and and that's that's that's exactly how we feel about money, is that it's a really important tool, but it's uh, there's it also lacks a lot of things too when it comes to how happy it makes us exactly. Yeah, So money it's still gonna be the focus of our show because we do think it's it's it really is such a foundational tool. In January, we can change our name to how to Happy, how to how to beer, how to bike. These are all the topics we talk

about the show. Okay, but let's let's get more practical with it, right. And so if budgeting and track you're spending, if that allows you to reprioritize how you're spending your money, well, then simply looking at your calendar like that can help you to do the same with your time. And so look at it and see is like is it full of events and meetings that you are excited about? But or have you slipped into the business trap that's so easy to fall prey to, I mean, especially this time

of year. That being said, not everybody follows their calendar maybe as strictly as others. Um and so maybe if you'd rather start with the end in mind, it could be helpful to start with like some of life's biggest questions. You can take it a completely different approach and you can come up with a mission statement that you can

work towards. I think for a lot of folks, having that end in mind, having that goal that you're working towards can just allow everything else to kind of fall into place, as opposed to starting at the bottom and kind of piecing it together. It can act like a guiding light to inform the other choices and have you decide to incorporate it into your life. Yeah, yeah, And so what will link to a works you that we've created to help you to find the answers to some

of these questions. That's our money mission statement, But the money part of it is is kind of secondary to the first questions we ask, which is primarily more about how it is that you want to spend your time, because ultimately time, like it is the most valuable resource, it is the most scarce resource that we have, and that ultimately defines what it is that your life looks like, how it is that you are spending your days in

your weeks. And we think this is the perfect time to be thinking about this topic because we just got maybe, like I referenced at the beginning of the episode, Christmas let you down in a way like it wasn't all that you hoped it would be. And you built it up through the month of December, singing the Carrols, listening to the Mariah carry jams, and you're like decorating the tree Mariah carries out. Man. You would see the headlines. Is it not still the number one most listen to

Christmas song? It might be, but everyone's like revolting. Nobody wants to hear it here really more. Yeah, Okay, don't tell that to my wife. Your wife is such a millennial. She loves that song. She hates Mariah Carey. Well, you're doing all these things right, in this effort to have a happy Christmas, and yet you may have still else a little bit left down. And so especially as we're going to towards a new year and you're starting to think about like maybe things you want to change. There's

a fresh start. We're gonna talk about fresh starts here next week on the show. But you have this ability to use use this fresh start to propel yourself forward in a different way. This is the perfect time to be thinking about all these things as you're kind of making those plans and from where we're sitting, cultivating a rich inner life, like delightful hobbies and indispensable community are

some of the keys defining happiness. Money it's not unimportant, right you know what, Matt and I were not planning to take a vow of poverty anytime soon. You're not gonna live a monastic existence and not yet un monastery, become one of those desert fathers. Maybe your wife and kids would love it if you left right now. They think that was great. It have to be like an empty duster thing. Yeah, maybe that, But but like money doesn't have all that much bearing on a lot of

these things past a certain point. That is kind of what we're getting out here. And if you've been listening to this show for any point, that's time. You know. We're not against building wealth for your future, but now is a great time to think about how much stock you're placing in your bank or your investment accounts, and are you placing too much of a priority on those things to the detriment of other more important things. That's food for thought as we're heading into a new year.

That's right. Man, couldn't have said it better myself. Let's go ahead and shift gears and get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. This was called mile High Salute, which is the only mile high salute? Is that the Broncos football thing? Have you ever heard? I think it is when they do the you know when they did they do that anymore? I don't know. Um, I feel like I remember that back

in the day, Carl Davis remember exactly. But this was a Checha sour And when Jack dropped these beers off, you mentioned so one of the cobrewers, I guess one of the co owners of the brewery. Uh he I think he's half Peruvian. And there's a drink called the Cheecha something may maybe it's called the Cheecha sour Chicha Murada. I believe was that it very nice? Did you look it up? I did? Okay, Wikipedia so helpful. But this

beer is brewed in the style of that drink. Uh, And so I would like to hear your thoughts, Joel. All right, I've never had a beer like this, which I think is always fun to something always unique, like a little out of left field. This one definitely was that. It was a really cool combo of sour, spice and fruit, and so I like the pineapple, but there was also cinnamon,

but then it was also sour. Until it's like it feels kind of like a kitchen sink beer in a lot of ways, but but not in a weird way, not in a weird way, like all it all actually works. Everything blended together really well. And so I will say, like, yeah, it sounds a little weird on its surface if you read all these ingredients combined into one, but I don't know. This beer pulled it off and I enjoyed it. What about you? Yes, the only poured this the what I

was picking up on the nose. I could not get past this. But Luxardo Marischino Liqueur. I like to sometimes put a little like tiny little splash of that when I'm making an old fashioned. In my opinion, that's exactly what this like before I tasted it, because yeah, because I don't for whatever reason, that's that's what I'll smelling.

But then you take a sip and you can definitely taste that fruit, and that for me, the cinnamon really came through, like, in my opinion, that was not something I was picking up on my nose for whatever reason. But then what you tasted, you most definitely taste that. There's a lot in the flavor profile for clothes. It's all mixed in there, and this one in particularly too. I thought you might really like this one because it was not overly sweet. I was expecting it it might be.

Personally I would appreciate if it was a touch sweeter, but it was had a nice amount of tartness going on, and honestly, that's great from the standpoint of not having like palette fatigue. You know, like it's a sweeter beer. You drink it once and you're like, oh, this is amazing, but by the time you get to the end of the glass, you're kind of getting sick of its starting to feel kind of full. But that is not the case with something that's a little bit on the dryer side.

You get to the end of it and you're just wanting more because it's dry, and you're like, oh, any more sweetness, any more wetness in my mouth. Definitely really enjoyed this one. This was an incredibly unique beer, and if you happen to be near Mutation Brewery, we would recommend you checking it out for sure, just outside of Atlanta. We still haven't been in person, but we'll make it happen soon. Well, that's gonna do it for this episode, Matt Folks and fine show notes. Links to some of

the studies maybe that we mentioned in this episode. You can find links to that. Yeah, on our website at how to money dot com. That's right, and we are getting towards the end of the year, and so we will ask you one last time if you have enjoyed this episode or just our show in general this year, we would love it if you were to head over to Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that you listen and leave us a positive rating, give us a nice review over there. It just helps others to find this show.

You can even see it as a belated Christmas gift, a nice little present for Matt and Jewel, so much better than the ugly Christmas winter you thought about sending us. Exactly, but Joe, that's gonna be at money for this episode until next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out bo