Negotiation as a Winning Everyday Tactic #554

like sitting down at this conference table. Uh, and there's two parties at the table, right, Like, it makes me think of like a union, and then you've got like the guy that's in there. It's a you know, make a deal with the union, that kind of thing. But and while that's true, I guess we are talking about negotiating.

We're trying to put it into a new light. Or you think about like the FBI and negos shading hostage stand offers exactly his high stake thing that that's like highly emotional and in reality, well that is true, but negotiating does take place under those there's a whole different type of negotiating. Then that's what we want to talk about today, how it can impact your everyday life, how it can save you money, how it can uh perhaps allow you to make more money. We're gonna talk about

all of that today, Yeah, no doubt. All right, Well, before we get to that, Matt, let's just share a listener win because listener Kyle reached out to us and he he um. He was one of those people that you know, when we talk about millennial spending money at coffee shops, Kyle was the patent guy they were talking about. Because Kyle Kleen, he was spending something close to a hundred dollars a month so on getting coffee every day out at Starbuck and in all fairness, his work, he said,

takes them. He's on the road Monday through Friday. And I was also thinking, well, why doesn't his employer pay for his coffee or pay for his meals? But I don't know his situation. I don't know what he's got going on, but either way, he was paying out a pocket. Yeah, like you said, for coffee. And this is an instance where a subscript and normally we hate subscriptions, but this is a subscription we can get behind because it's gonna save you money. He's talking. He basically told us about

the unlimited sip club ye from Panera Bread. Yeah, which basically it's it's something like we've got a gas station where we live and it called a quick Trip, and they would, I think, do something similar where you get unlimited rebills during the summer months for a certain amount, you know, for a certain dollar amount with a particular cup, right, like, as long as you buy the kind of cut that you can show up refills something like that, drink all

the high freaking corn syrup carbonation as you want to pass out on the floor dead from just well yeah, Kyle's using it mostly to get coffee, but yeah, you're right. This is a situation which he weighed the pros and cons, and the subscription made the most sense because that Panera Bread subscription is like nine dollars a month, and so

he was paying nine dollars so he started. But so when you go to it now, it's like it's the only about like ten bucks, which is I mean, if you're able to save close to ninety bucks a month, this is I mean, so this is where like jeting and tracking your expenses is going to really come in handy because I've I feel that though, like those coffee expenses could just sort of slip under the radar, you know, like you're like, I'm not spending that much, but then

you're like, oh, wait a minute, I'm actually spending money on coffee every single day because I'm a human being. And he mentioned Monday through Friday, but man, I'd be using that thing on the weekend, not just Monday through Friday while I'm on the road. I'm gonna take advantage of that seven days a week only. I like the ingenuity, right, yes, yeah, because it's one of those things where he said he's saving eighty five plus dollars a month now that he's

doing this subscription. Because if you're getting coffee every day out like and you put that in your budget, that's okay. But if you could also find a way to save right to to do it for like one tenth of the price fraction, Yeah, that's impressive. He can kind of have your keya, you have your cake and eat it too, as long as you can get behind some you know, Panera coffee. I don't know what we don't I don't know what level it's at, but Kyle Moore powered to

you I saw too. There's like it's not just coffee, like, you can get fountain drinks as well, so you can also pull the quick trip move going there and t as well, like hot and cold teas. Are you still drinking? You're your iced tea at dinner? Like every sweet every like a good Southerner you are. Yeah, I was gonna say you are such even though I'm not really a Southerner. It's it's the Southern way of being and it's you

do it sweet. Yeah, and not as sweet is like you might get at cracker Barrel or something like that. But uh yeah, no, I like, I like sweet tea for dinner. Caffeine has no effect on you, sir. All right, So our beer for this episode is a grisette by Jester King, and this one is re fermented with cherries. I'm looking forward to enjoying this one today. We will share our thoughts at the end of the episode. Yeah, my assumption is that our thoughts are gonna be positive,

but we're gonna love it. Yeah, you can wait to find out because Jester King. Well, Matt, let's move on. Let's talk about negotiating as a as an everyday tactic that people can use to win with their finances. And I don't know, it made me think, as we're talking about negotiation, you just mentioned how people maybe think of it wrongly. We're always thinking about it in these big, grand terms, when really there are a lot of small,

everyday ways that we can negotiate and win. Maybe think about the way you track your time, and you you've been pretty committed to tracking your time. I have been in the past. Yeah, and I no longer do that, Okay, all right, Well for a while you were, And maybe it's just because you found a good group, right, you found yourself the way you tracked your time, and then you began to implement some new habits, like a self exploration.

I was just curious to see how much time I was spending on different tasks throughout the day, so I tracked. For folks who haven't been listening more than a year, I guess this is like maybe two years ago, Laura vanderham on two to three years ago. Yeah, I was around that time, and I was literally tracking every minute of the day, like I had this app going on my phone, and I made fun of you know, any of those minutes time the day based on the way

you were. Now, I just switched from one activity to the next, and I wasn't getting to too detailed with it, but just general swallos of the day. I was curious, what, you know, what I was spending my time on in order just to hopefully be more efficient with my time. Yeah, and I thought you were being kind of nerdy. And maybe it is. It's a nerdy your thing, Like that's not a normal thing, right, I talked smack about you

behind the scenes. Well, you know, and I'm just like a less regimented person and I'm more prone to do things on a whim. It's not for you, but like, there're certainly flaws with my personality tendency, right, I tend to throw the baby out with the bathwater when I when I should at least consider the benefits of something as simple as managing my time more effectively and trying

to implement something that would help me do that. And so I guess what something I thought was unimportant or at least uncool not with my ever is maybe something is. It's something I've found more meaningful recently because I've been able to find a balance between tracking my time in some ways to make sure that I'm being effective. I have no desire to go to down to the minute detail or second detail of my life and and track

it that extensively. But still I think in much the same way, right when it comes to negotiation, there's a potential for meaningful value. Right that people might think it's not worth their time to think about it, uh and

doing it regularly learning how to do it well. But but like me, when it comes to time management, you might be wrong, and you might find that there are there are ways at least that you can incorporate it into your life that will provide enough results and maybe it'll make you kind of rethink the endeavor and kind of make you more interested and actually going down that path. Sure, yeah, and you know, like being able to manage your time well.

Like we are here to argue that negotiating is something that can benefit you regardless of what stage of life you're in, right, like whether you you're a student school, whether you are a stay at home parent, or even a CEO. We think that negotiating has sort of like

the special universal quality to it. But one of the problems is that oftentimes folks are just too scared to negotiate fear is certainly something that holds us back much of the time, as a lot of us have been raised, I think to ruffle as as few feathers as possible. You know, I gotta wanna paint with too broad of

a brush. But like I believe that younger generations ours included as millennials, that were particularly prone to avoid any social discomfort that that might come about because of conflict. Just makes me think of how will might send like twenty or thirty or forty texts in order to uh distance ourselves from a potential awkward situation, right when we know that if we just picked up the phone and called our parents back or got back to our friend,

it would help to clarify things. And granted there are times there's there's a time in place for text messages, for sure, but there's sort of this ongoing joke I feel like with millennials and zoomers, where it's like I'm not going to pick up the phone, like I'm not going to talk to you in person when we know that that would be a more effective way to communicate. But oftentimes I think we're doing that in order to preserve any sort of uh, to keep away any conflict

to not ruffle those feathers. And you know the other realities that folks often don't know how to negotiate well. They're they're unsure about how to do it well. Uh. And so it's not necessarily that you didn't want your

time to be spent wisely, Joel. You just hadn't tried to implement maybe a system that helped you to do that, or maybe I was just thinking about it wrong and I thought that to be more effective with my time, I had to track it in the way you were doing it, which was pretty granular, and I was like, that's that's too intense for me. It doesn't mean that I don't want my time to be spent well, and then I could find something that is going to be

better for for that. And even though like generally like a nerdy concept, that doesn't mean that being able to manage your time more effectively like that's going to benefit anybody and everybody. And so in the same way, we feel that way about negotiating. So we want to dispel some of these preconceived notions about what negotiation does and

what it doesn't involve. Today, we're gonna offer our best advice for for how you can start implementing some beneficial tactics in your everyday life, helping you to to save more money, to make more money as well, and you know, just pursue more of what it is that you value. Yeah, let's first maybe talk a little bit about what negotiating is and isn't, because I think sometimes one of the biggest common myths is that people think a shrewd negotiator

is screwing people over left and right. Sure, and so that in order to effectively get what you want, somebody else has to get run over in the process. They often there's a fixed amount of pizza, get more, and therefore maybe maybe it's not unfair or maybe I'm hurting someone in the process. That's their city mindset. Yeah, and they think that it's maybe some sort of conflict ridden

exercise too. But again that's a myth, because the best negotiators to actually leave the other side feeling like they gotta win. Also, so, yeah, if you're negotiating and you're leaving a bad taste in someone's mouth because your tactics are too ruthless, they're not likely to want much to do with you in the future, meaning that you lost. Also,

that's not the right you want to take. You've you've lost the overall war, right Like you may have one that that one particular battle, that skirmish, but not the overall war. Right. Yeah, it makes me think of I don't know. One of the most common things I think about as a baseball fan when it comes to negotiating, is the trade deadline pass just a few weeks ago? Oh did it it? Did? They are all these trades

flying around, especially the last couple of days. It's like trading a couple of prospects for a major league player or everyone one of those major league players from major league player deals. Sometimes there's cash thrown in and stuff into these deals as well. But let's say a baseball GM he pulls the wool over another GM's eyes, and that's harder to do because he typically have the same

information at their disposal. But let's say you did you just he fully took advantage of somebody to work for another club. Well, that's going to prevent future opportunities to make good trades, right, and that could ultimately hamstring his efforts in the long run. And so yeah, this this typically, by the way, negotiation, it's not typically a one time thing. You don't want to sour a relationship by taking advantage of the other party. That's an important part to mention

here because that's sort of mentality. Thinking of negotiation as this one off chance to try to like destroy somebody else is the exact opposite of what you're trying to accomplish a totally. It's worth mentioning as well, that negotiating it's considered normal in other cultures and in other countries because oftentimes in our culture we're used to more of

a fixed price sort of market. Here, typically you can't really negotiate the price of a box of cheerios or a gallon of milk at Walmart or at your local Aldi or Costco. That we just generally do a lot less haggling than a lot of cultures, whereas in countries like in the Middle East and in Turkey, Egypt, over in down in Central America, haggling it's the normal way of doing business. Makes me think back to when I was in high school and I was in Guatemala City.

Right outside of Guatemala City, there is a market and we were encouraged, like as high schoolers are like hey, well they're gonna say a price, and they're basically the folks who are with us, we're teaching us how to haggle because they know, as American teenagers that we had zero experience doing that basically, And so it was a lot of fun figuring out how to uh negotiate down the price of the machete that I was trying to buy, which, yeah, that's right. As a high schooler, I bought a machete.

And yes, this was obviously pre uh nine eleven. Um for all the Stoomers out there, you used to be able to travel with the chetti's on the airplane. I hadn't really thought about the fact that, yeah, like somehow I came back and remember I have that at home. It's like this uh Guatemala machete. All right, well you should whip that out. And you know, I don't think

I have an intra weeds under control the front lawn. Well, yeah, it makes me think of when I visited China back in two thousand nine, and I did not buy machete, but I bought like a pair of shorts. I had left my swim trucks and home I totally forgot to bring any and so I need more by a part. Yes, yes, and I can actually bring those someone the plane. But I distinctly just remember haggling with this, with this, with this lady in the market over these shorts, and I

just thought it was a blast. I thought it was fun to kind of this this back and forth and even just like the reactions, right, the facial reactions from the person who's doing this, Like how they seem like it's like a dance. Oh yeah, it's exactly. It's exactly like a dance, and they kind of like fake being insulted or something like that, and then they come back at you, and I just remember just how fun that

game was. And I think, I think Matt, you're right, like, if you can think of negotiation more as a game instead of like this butting of heads, you'll be far more likely to engage in it, even if it's like not seen as terribly normal here in the United States. We can take kind of a lesson from some of these other cultures how how they do it, how they perform this negotiation dance, and I think you can kind

of think of it similarly. Sure, but just because you we think about it that way doesn't necessarily mean that everybody else will think of it that way, right, and so uh, in that way, though, I think we should

probably think less about what other people think. Like Warren Buffett talks about the interscore card versus the external scorecard and how we oftentimes we probably need to be spending more time on the interscore card and what matters to us as opposed to what everybody what everybody else thinks. And so bottom line, we think that there's more room

to negotiate on the daily than you think. Joel, you read this book Uh Never Split the Difference by Chris Voss, and you're like, yeah, we gotta talk about negotiating, I think. And I was like, but but there's a way for us to apply this specifically to kind of personal finance and money. Yeah, And so that's what we're doing today. We're gonna discuss some of these ways to negotiate better, uh, and we also provide some examples so that you can have an idea of how and when to apply these

techniques for maximum effectiveness. And you know, one of the first things that we would encourage for you to do is to identify the pain point of whoever it is that you're negotiating because you you know what it is that you want, right, it's the reason that you're having a conversation, uh to begin with. And you also already know what it is the other person wants, because either they've listed that item for sale or they've called you

into their office and they're talking about a raise. But now it's it's going to be important for you to try and identify why it is they want what they want. And so, for for instance, it makes me think if you've been eyeing a TV on Facebook marketplace, right, some of those pain points are easily decipherable from just like

looking at the listing real quick. Right, Like one of those is just how long it's been listed, because most folks they're gonna get tired of fielding the uh is this is this item still available questions after a while. If I've filled a ten of those with no follow throughs, someone actually a series about following through You're like, I'm already how can I sell this to you as quickly as possible in prim negotiating territory, like you can kind of come at me with some some decent offers and

I'll consider it exactly. Yeah, so you're gonna have more room to negotiate if that TV has been listed for a couple of weeks rather than if it's just been there for a couple of days. Um. Also, like like TVs, they're they're kind of big, you know, And so there's a good chance that they might just want it out of the garage or just out of the laundry room wherever they have it. So your ability to get a better price might be a direct reflection of your ability

to pay cash and to pick it up today. Figure out what it is that they're wanting the most, other than in this case money, and find a way to meet them at that need. Yeah, yeah, I agree, Yeah, And sometimes it is just the timing right. People want it to be simple. And if you say, listen, if you'll take this much less, I will come pick it up within the next hour, I will. I will be in my car and on my way. I will make

it super simple. I will have cash in hand. And that can sway somebody to accept a lower price than they would they were previously otherwise disposed to taking. And it's it's important to know, by the way, that not everything is negotiable, right, But when you can identify the pain point, you'll find that negotiating can be a reality

in more situations than you previously thought. It's kind of like we talked about Matt when we talked about negotiating a rent decrease or how a lot of people are you know, keeping it rent from going up, basically finding a way to keep it keep it steady. Well, you can negotiate, but you've got to figure out what the landlord's dilemma is. That's how Justin Pogue phrased it when

we brought him on the show. And when you know what that land the landlord's pain point is, you can address it in order to secure better terms for both your landlord and yourself. You know, for a landlord, that pain point could be losing a tenant that's been incredibly easy. So let's say you are that tenant that has been you've been a dream to work with rents early. Yeah, not asking for silly things like a light bulb to be replaced. You're basically relieving a landlord pain point and

it's gonna make it easier to negotiate. And let's say, um, they might be worried about vacancy, right, so if you move out, they might be the landlord might be worried that they they're gonna lose a whole month of rent. And if you know that they're worried about that that they might not be able to get someone in time,

that gives you more leverage at the negotiating table. There might be maybe, let's say, some deferred maintenance that they're going to have to take care of if you to move out to All of these things could be points at which you can press to help ensure that you're able to get and negotiate a lower rent amount. And so deciphering the pain point sometimes it's intuitive, but it can also involve asking a few questions, a few pointing questions.

And so we're talking about negotiating rent map, but but using that dilemma that somebody has, you know, how can I make it easier for them? What? What is their reason for selling? And what would make them need to sell it to me in a discount? Asking those questions is going to be a huge part of negotiating a better deal for yourself. Yeah, and and not just asking yourself those questions like right like not just you say, okay,

what is it that he wants? Or you know, she has been hesitant to raise my rent over the past two years, what about my you know me being a renter has allowed her to keep rent from going up. It's not just you asking yourself those questions, but literally asking them those questions, right, because if you don't have any idea what it is that could allow you to further the negotiations or for further in this example, keeping

your rent low, let's right. And so what that means, I think is oftentimes just asking some of these open ended questions where you can courteously put the ball in their court and allow them to potentially disclose some information that can allow you to say, well, I can do that. It's like, okay, you're you're looking for that, Like, I'm

happy to do that, and what'll that get me? That information that you can glean from being an active listener is going to be so important when it comes to your ability, in this case, to save a bunch of money. I think something it's so similar. Let's say you're buying a house, and often times it's hard to know why a buyer is selling, what their biggest pain point is, and especially right now right is the market is softening.

You need to work with your realtor to ask some of these more difficult questions so you can figure out, well, how can I get the biggest discount on this house that I that I want um by finding that person's pain point, and maybe it is they need to be out, they've bought a house in another state, and time is of the essence. And so if you're able to close in two weeks, let's talk about speed. Yeah, you might be able to get an extra ten fi off of

the currently listed price. Right, or they might be willing to take less money because they are worried that if they move out of state that that house is going to linger even longer, costing them more money in the future. So these are the kind of things we're knowing the pain point, asking the question and then listening well can make a big difference in your ability to negotiate effectively. Yeah,

this is an instance we're having. Some flexibility is key because if you can alter your plans a little bit, if you can again meet them where they are, you have an opportunity to save a lot of money. But we're gonna talk about several other factors that are going to help you to become a more effective negotiator, and we will get to all of those right after this. All Right, now we are we're kind of talking about the the art of negotiation on today's episode. Haggling is

one way you can put it in some context. But yeah, when we're talking I think I think there's a certain art to it because if you can um play your cards right and if you can know how get more information on your side, and then if you can handle the negotiation process in a more educated manner, there's more of an opportunity for you to save more money and

make more money. So yeah, I think there's an element of art when we're talking about negotiations, and it just varies from item and to item or from instance to instance, right like that, Like there's no like twelve step program that you can go through. It's important to kind of keep things, you know in mind some of these different factors, um, not all of these will necessarily apply equally when it

comes to the wheel and dealing that you're doing. And we're gonna try to give a lot of examples throughout today's episode that will help you see, like, Okay, here's everyday place in which it's gonna make sense for me, and and here's maybe how I can tackle that or where or where this piece of advice comes into play

more readily. But yeah, one one thing that's really important when we're talking about negotiating effectively is knowing the market, because another step when we're talking about getting more bang for your buck, it involves doing your homework. And if you don't know the market, you're bound to negotiate poorly or get taken advantage of. It's it's gonna be hard

to know what to ask for. So if you're looking to get some work done on your place, let's say you know that often involves getting multiple quotes, and so that the more information you have at your disposal, which takes a little bit time, takes a little bit of legwork to get those multiple quotes, the more informs you're going to be, the more likely you're gonna be able

to negotiate well and make a wise decision. For instance, Matt, like when we've talked about when it comes to getting a mortgage on the home you're buying, or let's say you're you're shopping around for a refinance shop with multiple lenders, right, because that's going to give you this apples to apples comparison, and I have negotiated with lenders before and said what

your origination fee is? But I've got this other uh, this other lender and they said that the origination fee is is seven seventy five fifty babe, right, yeah, my costco refile last year. See that's too shabby. But when you see the when it's written out in paper, you have these quotes in front of you, then you can kind of hit these providers against each other and you can ask them to match somebody else's rate. But if you don't have that information on hand, it's harder to

know what other people are offering. It's harder to even know what to ask for. You're just kind of shooting blindly in the dark asking for a discount, um. But if you have information on your side, makes it a whole lot easier to confidently ask for a better rate or better terms. Totally. Yeah, negotiating your internet bill right like, that's something we've encouraged for years now on how the money. Uh,

And it's not as difficult as it seems. But before you hop on the phone, it's going to be incredibly helpful for you to know the popular rates. So the biggest providers are offering in your area, and so a quick search you know of their website will arm you with just helpful information. Basically, like the only information that you need if you're trying to lower your Internet that the price that you're paying their their TV ads the little often tout special offers for new customers, and of

course you want the best rate out there. But knowing what those best rates are, you know, knowing the market like, that's going to give you the information to make the right ask. Yeah, instead of saying, I just want twenty bucks off every single month moving forward, you can say, actually, here's an offer that I saw that you you have

on your website, and this is for new customers. But I've been a loyal customer for three plus years or something like that, and you know, I would prefer not to go over to this other company that has a better rate than what I'm paying now, But can you match it. I'm a frugal guy, right, and I'll do it, yeah, and really, but I would prefer to stay. I mean, there's a way to to to go about this, but so much of it involved having the right information, knowing

what's going on in the market. Total and timing is part of that. Too, Matt, because there's a reason that people are more apt, let's say, to get a deal on a new car at the end of the month. Not that we encouraged buying new cars, but because of the reality of quotas in that industry, there's just a

higher necessity for that salesperson to make a sale. If it's September, then if it's September one, right, and so just because of the timing, the market conditions are more ripe for you to be able to get a better deal. You're starting out in a better position. But knowing that, knowing that that's how the market works when you're buying a new car, can help you use that to your advantage.

Whereas if you don't realize that, if that's not something that's on your radar, you're liable to find yourself negotiating at the wrong time, putting yourself at a bigger disadvantage. Yeah, and basically what we're talking about here is we are encouraging folks to put in the legwork, and this is something that we are prone to avoid extra work. We want things to be easy and handed to us, which is why companies who are really good at providing a

service or providing a product on a silver platter. Oftentimes we'll get folks business because folks don't want to go through all of that. The due diligence, essentially when it comes to shopping around, well, the easier we make it for ourselves, the less likely we are to be able to get get a deal, right, to save money or to make more. And so you can take the easy path, but the easy path isn't typically gonna work out best

for your bottom line. Yeah, And so as we're talking about negotiating, you know, there are a number of more like more subtle factors that are important to keep in mind as well, in particular if you are talking to somebody in person, right, like if you are talking with a contractor about hey, let's let's talk about the cost of this roof, or you're looking at gutters or something

like that. Um, and one the things you need to keep in mind is your tone, right and so like, if you're coming in with guns blazing, like, that's typically gonna be like the opposite of how it is that

you're gonna want to approach a negotiation. Yeah you can, Yeah, you don't want to necessarily start by being like, but your work isn't very good, and so I actually get a discount because you're not talented, or just like immediately cutting straight to the price and just being confrontational about how you're talking about the work that they're doing and

what they're charging. Uh. If you if you read the book Never Split the Difference, the author Chris he talks about using like this FM DJ voice that inflects downward, kind of like a soothing yet in control voice. Uh. And it's probably it's gonna be less necessary, you know, like the smaller sorts of negotiating that we're talking about. But but how you come across is going to impact

your ability to negotiate effectively. You know, you you'll likely want to use a different tone depending on who you are negotiating with, But being in control of your emotions and using the right tone is going to be crucial. And it makes me think about if you are like budgeting with a significant other or your partner, if you're coming in hots and you immediately, you know, are like attacking them because maybe they overspent that month or maybe you are not on the same page about where they

are spending their money. Well, how do you think they're gonna respond. You know, I do a little bit of role playing here. Imagine that scenario. We're just like you can you spend how much on on what and you might be able to efficiently communicate how it is that you feel. But this is one of those areas where efficiency is not the name of the game. It's you know,

it's about getting that person on board. You want to be able to sink up with that person before finding ways that you can both together identify what your financial goals are. Sort of like you're saying earlier, Jill, like this that would be maybe be an instance of winning a particular battle but losing the overall war. Because as someone who is right now listening to how the money, that means you are most likely the financial nerd in in whatever relationship you might be in. And so that

means you might have a reluctant spouse or partner. And what that means is that you need to be patient and understanding and uh, just I don't know kinds And a lot of being kind is how it is that you're talking to somebody. Well, let's say some new information came to light and you realize that, wait, I'm getting paid fifteen percent less than I, then I think I should get paid are I now know a co worker gets paid more than me and they've got less experience,

and so you might feel jilted. And so in that conversation, your tone might reflect the fact that you feel like you're getting screwed. And guess what, that is not the best way to negotiate. That might make you feel the most Catharsism by telling your employer that they have that they've hurt you and that you deserve to get paid more. Then that might be in reality that might be true, but that is typically also the least effective way to negotiate.

By by letting your tone shift and kind of letting letting that the way you've been you felt hurt kind of dictate the conversation you I mean, you want to be truthful, you want to use those facts, and so it's not that you want to withhold information. I guess that's up to you on how important and how revealing you want to be with it with the cards that you have, But you still want to approach conversation like that with with the proper tone and not just your

tone as well. But like even it makes me think of like, uh, like your body language, and like like the different nonverbals that you're communicating as well, because you might be saying one thing to your boss, but if your face says something else, it doesn't matter what you're saying. They see you grimacing, and so you have to find a way to align the nonverbals with what it is

that you're saying. Man, it makes me think of there was something where that came to light where you and I had to negotiate something on behalf of our company, and we could have used some information that came to light to our advantage, but we realized that that wasn't the best negotiating tactic, that it would have made us seem like we were hurt by something that hadn't worked out in our favor, and so there was a better way to approach it, even if those facts on the

ground were true, and we need to have that conversation, right, Um, But it makes me think about emotions, right, and how you know, one of the ways that you keep your tone aligned is by controlling your emotions. And if we leave our emotions unchecked, it's gonna hurt our ability to negotiate. So um, getting angry, irritated or or even allowing our anxiety to kind of take over and allow fear to kind of um run amuck can impact our ability to

have that productive conversation. And I think it's okay to maybe be somewhat annoyed, even let's say, when you're negotiating, because we are human, of course, But the crucial part, the crucial thing, is to make sure that we're not wearing those emotions on our sleeve. So we've got to be able to find a way to prevent it from

impacting our our style, our tone, and our argument. Even if you know we're not excited about how the conversation is currently going, there's a way in which we can keep those emotions in check which allows for us to be able to work together with someone to achieve our goal, even if the experience is kind of a frustrating one makes me think, Matt, about a recent negotiation I've had to have with a company that I bought a grill from just at the fairy tale end of last year,

and I have a year long manufacturer's warranty. But this grill sadly is having severe issues in many different ways, and so the squirrel company keeps wanting to send me little parts here and there to fix the problem. But there are just too many issues going on with a grill that a couple of parts, They're not going to fix it. Lemon, I think it's a lemon. Just need to send you a new grill, exactly, And so that's

what I'm pressing for. But I could easily allow my annoyance at how long it's taking or their inability to resolve things. I could let that, um, I could let that frustration take over me, and it would really shut things down. But I'm finding a way to keep my tone upbeat and to keep my emotions at bay so that I can continue to have a productive conversation with the person who's ultimately I think gonna be able to

resolve this, uh, this problem in my favor. As the time comes when you realize that it's time to go nuclear, to start shouting on the phone, perhaps, I mean, I guess it's important to keep your emotions in check, but at times it's important to kind of deploy your emotions

if you do feel that the time is right. Most of the time, yeah, most of ore, it's not gonna work out, and usually it shuts things down and that person has far less of a desire to help you if you're being out of control, if you're being a baby, and if you're the last resorts um and even still you still want to treat. It's okay to be emotional and to share how did you feel about something, but you still need to treat the other person with respect.

Another component as well is that you need to be willing to walk because if you just got to have the item that you are negotiating for, I think your negotiation skills are going to suffer. You know, like that's another example of letting emotions run the show, and that's

gonna lead to poor results. Having a plan B that is going to give you more of an ability to walk away if you aren't able to get the terms or to get the price that you're looking for, Because if you're unwilling to walk away, then there's almost no chance that you're going to be able to do the work that it takes to get that item on better terms. This is an instance where caring less is is essentially going to be a winning strategy. It's not always easy,

but we think it is necessary. Uh. And again this is when like you can make a confident decision and walk away when you've done your homework, when you have have participated in some market research and you know what's out there, because it's difficult to say, well, well but that's it, I'm I'm out of here, because well that might be the only one, right, Like, if we're talking about homes, for instance, if there are no other homes

in this particular neighborhood that you're you're looking to move into, well you probably need to be a little bit more careful with how you negotiate. But if they are like six or seven homes in this neighborhood, well it's it's gonna be a different story and you can more easily, I think, walk away. And so having done that research,

that's really important. Although I will say in this particular example, walking away from a home it is probably gonna be one of the more difficult things, right because just the way we process things, how we view houses or apartments or wherever you're looking to potentially buy, like we see we see our homes is almost like an extension of ourselves, right, And so it's difficult to be like, Okay, does this

place provide me shelter? Is this a place where I can sleep at night like, that's not how we view homes, even though we would probably try to encourage folks to

think about their homes more in that way. Agreed, because you almost have to in order to be a good negotiator, and and you're right, you might really like a place, but if you fall in love before you've actually been able to negotiate effectively, you're probably gonna find yourself getting bent over barrel and paying more than you like or

not getting the terms that you'd like. To be a good negotiator really does involve removing some of those emotions whenever possible and being willing to walk away as part of that. Uh and so yeah. Another another tip mat we would say for being able to negotiate effectively is building rapport. And that's important because you're you're more likely to do better for yourself when the person you're negotiating with knows you or beliefs that your intentions are good.

And that doesn't mean that you've got to try and become besties with everyone that you're trying to haggle with, but finding some common ground can be a great way to help that person feel more comfortable giving you a discount or just more favorable terms, and so you can use this tactic in so many potential negotiation areas, even if you're just on the phone with the Internet company like you mentioned, Matt, or if you're d d M

ing with a company on Twitter. The more you can help them see you as an an individual with some sort of similarity to them, it often helps the process. And so that that can mean getting and using the name of the person that you're talking to, making them feel connected to you by using their actual name. If Cindy picks up the phone and you're like, Hey, Cindy, how's your day going, that's a great way to show

that you care. And it goes a long way that you're you're using their name and like asking how their day is going. That's another thing. Um, it can create a common spark of humanity that makes them more likely to do something to help you. Carrying just a little bit can go a long way. I think most of the times we don't want to, like we're speaking to literally a one number person, just want to get it done. You just want to get it done. But if we just want to get it done, we're probably not going

to get the best result. Yeah, we're we're less likely to, we believe. And sometimes they can just be as simple as identifying like where they live, you know, like where they're located, like geographically if they are your neighbor, well, like that can initiate like one kind of discussion that finds you know, a significant amount of common ground if it's if you've listed something on Facebook and they can over your place or vice versa. But even if they

don't live in your community. I think there are often ways to build rapport via like a location specific discussion. But the truth is that you won't always have common ground with everyone that that you're trying to negotiate with, especially if we're talking about, you know, a phone conversation with a utility company. But but you can help that person to feel understood, which creates trust. And so what is it that they need to feel like they've done

a done their job well? Because knowing what success looks like for them can help you to to kind of usher in that that win win scenario, like we talked about early on, like do they have one of those surveys that takes place at the end of the call and they're like you can be like, hey, I'm not sure if you're doing a survey, but I would love to give you high remarks. You're doing a fantastic job,

exactly right. Those little things man a job for me, Like, okay, So it makes me think of too, Like I keep thinking about Facebook because I've been listening so much stuff on Facebook. But I listed a TV, an old TV that we had, but it was a nice TV. It was the same song, and guy was interested. He came over. He was checking it out, and he starts in the negotiating process on me, and he's just like, all right, you know how much how much would you would you

be wanting to take you know, this much off? And he's there in person. He's nobody else has shown up to look at it, like this guy is here. And so he's like, okay, I know this guy wants to get rid of this thing he started having having his TV in his garage. His wife wants it gone. That's me. But I thought, man, like I think that that TV is priced fairly. This is me thinking, you know, in

my in my own head. And so what I highlighted I was I was just like, I'm not sure this is this is a Samsung, Like this is one of the best TV's out there, Like the picture quality on this thing, it's you know, it's a lot better than a lot of the other TV's out there. And he immediately joins in. Basically it's like, oh, I totally agree. Like the TV I've got right now, it's garbage. And he basically he begins to talk himself into paying full price for my TV because what we've identified our common

ground is that same song makes quality televisions. And by the end of it, he was very He's like, you know what, Okay, let's just go ahead and do this, and he paid my asking price. He was happy, I was happy, and we were able to make that deal happen. And that common ground was that him and I we both believe that Samsung makes a superior television. You go, I'm actually either, by the way, because we've actually talked about that before. Actually, how the failure rate on those

televisions on just regardless of brand, it's pretty minimal. So Matt, even though I'm gonna disagree with you on that, um, we can still agree to disagree, Crystal clear Baby, Still, that was still a good point. Though We've got just a few more thoughts when it comes to negotiation, and and we we should cover even maybe some more ways that people can implement negotiation as a tactic into their everyday life so that it feels less daunting and hopefully

they can get more from it. We'll talk more about that right after this, all right, So maybe during that commercial break, you're thinking about some of the different companies, some of the different instances where you could do some negotiating dollars a month, make it seven fifty this kind

of in half. So one of the other tips, one of the other things we want you to keep in mind is to know who it is that you are going to be able to negotiate with, because negotiating with the wrong person is a real mistake that that folks make. Um and I know this should kind of really be like a no duh kind of point, but it's not

as intuitive as you might think. And if you're talking to someone who has no authority over the terms or over the price, uh, if they don't have the ability to make any concessions, and you're just wasting your time.

So kind of going back to the internet example, if you're talking to the wrong department, you're gonna be spending your wheels and so it's important to to ask some of these pointed questions to find out who you need to talk to so that you aren't wasting your time and your energy or getting just shut down just because

you haven't found the proper decision makers. Right. Yeah, So we've always said that social media in general and Twitter specifically are are kind of the best avenues for negotiating an Internet bill that's too high. If you prefer to talk on the phone, that's fine. You want to make sure that you get through to the customer retention department. Those are the people with real clout who can negotiate

with you to help you get a better deal. If you're talking to someone, let's say in another department, or you're just taking the wrong path, there's an awfully good chance that you're gonna end up getting stymied and you're not going to get a better deal. They're gonna say it's not available because they don't have the power. You haven't reached the right person, they don't have the authority to basically say, yes, you know what, you saw this deal elsewhere, we can match that. We'll give it to

you for twelve months. Who you talk to makes all the difference in your ability to negotiate. If you're talking to someone that doesn't have the power, you're almost never going to have an effective end result that that works for you. That's right. Yeah, And you know the question is who should make the first offer because it's gonna depend uh. In many cases, you're gonna want the other

party to throw out the first number. This is like I'm specifically thinking about when you're asking for a raise, because you don't want to limit the potential upside by starting off with a pay suggestion that's gonna come in way too way too low, that's gonna be way too weak. That's when a potential employer often they ask the tricky question of like, well, would you can pay to your last job? And you're gonna want to be really careful

with how you answer that. You're not likelihood avoiding a specific number or maybe even avoiding a range, like finding a way to answer that diplomatically so you're not giving away too much information. And luckily more employers are offering ranges of pay rather than just a particular salary or just not disclosing salary at all. But when you're buying a physical item, you know whether it's it's new or used.

The starting price has almost always been given, but so much depends on the specific context and whether or not you have the data. Again, so much of this comes back to you having done your homework, you having done the research. But if you have the data to back you up, then you can oftentime make a pretty confident offer on an item. And another important question to ask yourself is what state is the iteman because it's often easier to negotiate the price of a clearance model or

a scratch intent appliance. Let's say then it would be on an item that is in high demand, right that everybody wants um, it's it's everybody wants it to be packaged and perfect and on that silver platter exactly. And there's a lot of items where if if it isn't high demand, let's say beanie babies back in the day, it's gonna sell out in like in like twenty four hours regardless, Like you're not gonna get a discount on that.

But if it lingers on the shelf longer, there's more of a chance there's that there's gonna be wiggle room for you to get a better price. It also makes me. Think about, like, um, negotiating at a place like a pawn shop. That's that's more expected, right, or the seller on Craigslist, like the medium is often helps determine whether

or not you're gonna be able to negotiate effectively. It's easier to negotiate in those places than it is let's say, at your local grocery store on a pint of ice cream. But that also doesn't mean that it's not possible in some of those contexts. And so some ways that you can negotiate, even in a situation where it doesn't seem normal is to I don't know, like ask for a

bulk discount. Could you get ten percent off? Let's say, if you purchased a case or one thing I've been able to use over the years, not at different times, is to check the expiration date, and if that item is about to expire, uh, the store is often gonna prefer to sell it to you for less than to throw it away. We've talked about buying tuls for my wife, and I realized that if I go in on Wednesdays, well, typically they're gonna expire on Thursday or something like that.

That's right, Yeah, you get a big discount. Or let's say that the steaks in the meat meat department are expiring tomorrow. You can go up to the meat manager and say, hey, listen, can I get thirty percent off the stakes? Or you can find a way to ask a question to get a cheaper price. Hey, are you just gonna throw these away otherwise? Because how can I

get them for a better price? You're like, Hey, I know you're about to put the red stakes out, but you can sell me these gray steaks, these stakes that kind of look like a rainbow, right, you don't want rainbow steaks man for any price? Me, You're you definitely

want to avoid. So basically what we're saying here is that it doesn't hurt to ask, right, and so whether that's just asked, like straight up just asking for a discount code, or just asking if there's a sale coming soon, like sometimes you're gonna be able to get that better price now, even if it's not a currently advertised lower price. Kind of going back to what you're saying, you're talking

about a like busted up packaging. Well, major retailers like Home Depot, Target, best Buy, like they will give you a serious discount. Much of the time, just if you ask. Open box items are already cheaper, but you can often score additional dollars off just by asking. Some of these retailers will match the price and take up to like

an additional temperson off. Yeah, sometimes just knowing, just because you're willing their policy or their tendency can give you a big leg up because you're like, well, i've heard that you do this, Is that true? Um Or I've seen on your website that you'll price match and give an additional discount. Will you do that in this case? Because here's because here's the math, like and here's or here's here's the price that your competitor. Can you match and then beat it for me? And that sometimes you

don't even have to necessarily negotiate. You just have to know what the policy is so that you can use it to your advantage. And I think one thing that maybe keeps people from often from negotiating at all, uh much less negotiating effectively is the fear of rejection that keeps them from me being trying, right, I mean? And I think one helpful way maybe to get over some of that fear when it comes to negotiating is to consider the worst case scenario, if you don't get the

terms you really want, is it really that bad? Like? What what are the downside potentials? Because the reality is that it's often not as bad as you think it is. And when we've got those secondary and tertiary plans figured out ahead of time, when we have a plan B, C, and D, we don't feel the pressure to take a losing deal to nearly the same degree. In negotiation, it's not something we do every day, and so, but it's

our goal to see people use it more frequently. We think it's kind of like a muscle that you've gotta that you gotta flex, and the more you flex that muscle, the better you're gonna get at it, the more comfortable you're gonna get doing it and making it uh something that you kind of incorporate more frequently into your shopping trips and into your conversations with your boss, all that kind of stuff. As you get more comfortable, you're gonna find a slew of ways to negotiate as you go

through every day of life. Um, and the other side might not even you know, whoever it is that you're negotiating with. They may not realize that that is what you are actually doing, right, because unlike popular sentiment, negotiation doesn't have to be this adversarial process with this scarcity mindset. It also doesn't have to be this formal thing where you sit down that the negotiating table and ultimately becoming a smart negotiator is going to pay dividends and many

facets of your life for years to come. You know, like we truly do believe that flexing that negotiating muscle, that it is good for all of us, just like time management, taking it back to the beginning, if you are good at that, that is going to serve you for the rest of your of your life and in the same way we think that negotiating will be able to serve you. Well, yeah, man, negotiating is is a

winning strategy and I think it's a lot of fun too. Again, if we see like a game, it can and it can make it easier to implement because it's like, oh, yeah, let me try this thing out, let me see how it goes, and you can kind of like, yeah, test and see how some of these tactics work. And I'd be curious to know matter if any how, the money listeners maybe kind of start to use this a little more readily, and how it pays off for you shooters,

email let us know how it goes. Yeah, if you get a win under your belt, to let us know. We want to hear about it so we can share with listeners. Joel, let's take it back to the beer. You and I enjoyed a grisette by Jester King, and this one is re fermented with cherries. What were your thoughts on this one, buddy? Well, first, this is a beer style that's sadly almost nobody makes. And every time I've had a grisette, there's like I can only think of like three or four I've had in my life.

They've all been epically good. It's just a rarity, like almost nobody makes them. And so it's a typically a Belgian style farmhouse or says on. Yeah, it's like heavy on the wheat factor, but also there's usually like a funkiness and definitely a flunkiness, and this one is is funky, but it's all I've never had a grisette actually with fruit in it before, so this one had cherries in it, which is one of my favorite fruits to put in beer.

And it's by Jester King, which is one of the best breweries in our country in all likelihood, and and so I thought this one was great, man, I really enjoyed it. It was it was light, but had that weedy element and had that cherry vibe going in a little bit tart. I thought it was delicious. It's one of the better beers I've had from Jester King. Yeah, what's great about a beer like this is I mean, so basically it's a sour. I think that's maybe the best way to think about it. Um. But with a

beer this you get a lot of complexity. And so if you are someone who enjoys maybe some of those barrel aged stouts because you like all the different flavors that that you can taste within that beer, but it's not the middle of winter and you want to switch it up and go something a little bit lighter. This is definitely a style beer that I would recommend because there are just so many nuances that go into making something like this. Again, pretty much everything by Jester King

is fantastic. It's nuanced in the way that negotiations. Right, I'm gonna read this here on their label says we brew what we like drink what we want and offer the rest to those who share our tastes. That's pretty bold. But if you're making beer as good as they are, I guess that's something you can get away with right down on your label, that's right. You can afford to be cocky. I guess you make beer as good a

jester king dust. But don't be cocky when it comes to how it is you negotiate and treat other people. All right, Joel, that's gonna do it for this episode. Listeners can find our show notes up on our website at how to money dot com. We'll see back here on Friday with our Friday Flight, and we're gonna break down some of the news that you've been hearing about this week. So until next time, best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,