Level Up Your Money with Gamification #155

That's what we're gonna get into. That's what we're gonna talk about. Man. Before we do that, we came across this article about all these new mattress companies and the return policy. You want to dive into it a little bit, sure, Yeah, So instead of gamification, what people are doing is gaming the system of these mattress companies. And there are these beautiful, wonderful free a hundred night or more trials that a lot of these new mattress companies offered. These bed in

the box. They ship it to your house and you test it out and you see whether you like it or not. Like Casper was at the forefront of this, right, I mean, there are all sorts of companies out there now that will ship you a needle. Yeah, there's Avocado, aren't they like one of the primo ones they are? Yeah, I think so. I can't show up for that, dude, right, right. But the cool thing is because people are like, I don't know you, I'm not sat on your bed, like

I can't tell whether it's good or not. These companies, in order to build confidence and for people to actually make the purchase and give it a try, well, they needed to have a great return policy. And I love that that exists, Like, that's such a nice way to

buy something with that peace of mind. Certainly. Yeah, it's a perfect solution to a problem when you have an online retail model, right, And so specifically, if you are looking to buy a mattress and you're genuinely wanting to try it out, support the one month free trial or three months free trial or even one year. There there's one example where this one company has a full sixty

five day return policy. Is incredible, very incredible, so incredible that people are completely taking advantage of that situation sleeping on the bed for free for anywhere between a month and a full year and sending that junk back. Yeah, a lot of people think about that. What people quoted in the article said, you never have to buy mattress again. Basically what you do is you just get a new one every three months by returning the one and just saying that you you didn't like it or wasn't up

to your standards or whatever. And I think what's gonna happen is is that these generous return policies, these generous trials are going to end because of the people that are gaming the system. And it's unfortunate because it's a great new business model. It's a great way to get a bed, and there are some great companies out there with great customer service that are trying to take care of people that actually want to buy a new bed. And these people are going to ruin it for everyone.

They're gonna ruin that free trial period. It's just like, didn't Costco have to like kind of go back on their return policy where they they said they would take anything, but then folks started bringing back ridiculous stuff. Yeah, and Costco still has an amazing return policy. The thing they had to tweak was how they accepted electronics returns because people would come back and say, I'm returning this desktop computer from two thousand and five because because you know what,

not because it's it's bad. I got my use out of it, it's been great, but it turns out they're way way cheaper now and way way better, and so I'd like to return my money back. Yeah, I like the five thousand dollars I spent on this desktop computer, and I'm gonna buy a four one now and so that that's five times faster. Again, that's that's an example of people gaming the system, not using it for what

it's supposed to be used for. And so I have no problem if someone returning a mattress because they say it wasn't great, but I genuinely wanted to give it a try. I really thought I might actually keep it. And the same thing with something like Costco. If you're going to buy something and return it because it wasn't up the snuff for you had a problem, that's totally fine. But gaming the system like that is just in my mind,

that's cheap. That's not frugal. Yeah, this is a great example of frugal versus cheap, which, dude, by the way, we need to do more frugal verse cheaps. I feel like we've kind of fallen off the wagon a little bit, so maybe maybe this year we can revitalize that a

little bit. But yeah, I feel like this is a perfect example of someone being cheap, not frugal, and specifically, I think a big part of that is obviously folks are not being perfectly honest as well, right, but just all the waste that's involved as well, Like, that's the biggest thing that kind of bothers me is that there's a lot of states where they're not allowed or they don't allow themselves to resell these you know, quote unquote used mattresses or even give them away, like they have

to be thrown in the trash. And it's such a shame because that's a lot of waste. These barely used mattresses would would be great in serving uh folks in in areas that where there's a lot of poverty, where where the homeless shelters lots of application. There could be so many great uses for these gently used mattresses, but a lot of these guidelines and understandable, right, there could be bed bugs or something like that, Like mattresses are

kind of one of those items that buying used. You have to be aware, so I understand the rules, but it's a it's a shame. And I think this makes it even more of a shame because we know a lot of those mattresses are going in the landfills, which totally sucks man, exactly. That's like, that's the epitome of being cheap, when you're putting your cheapness upon somebody else,

and this is a perfect example of that. Like this is going into a landfill, and you know, not only are you reaping a financial benefit from that, but you're you're displacing the cost of that onto not only everyone around you, but the earth as well. And we're not even talking about like the what the wasted resources and like the carbon footprint that it took to create that mattress as well, which and the shipping and all that.

It totally kind of bums me out. So if that's you, I think twice yeah, And we love to know your thoughts on this too. I think it's an interesting topic, like the frugal versus cheap like when is it too far? And so yeah, maybe in the Facebook group if you want to let your thoughts be known, we'd love to hear from you just go to Facebook and search how the Money in the search bar, you'll find our group and we'd love to kind of hear your thoughts on

that because it is an interesting topic. I'm going to create a fake account and go in there and say that I'm all for it and see what happens. Man, You're gonna start a ruckus in there. We'll get lampooned. Maybe you might well see Yeah, all right, Matt. We gotta mention the beer that we're having on the show today, astral Prism by Modern Times Beer. Big thanks to my buddy Craig who brews out there from Honor Time sending

this one our away. Yeah. So I'm looking forward to enjoying this one, man, and getting your thoughts as well at the end of this episode. All right, man, sounds good, But now onto the subject at hand. We're talking about leveling up your money game with gamification, with gamification, not gammification,

all right. But the reason, Matt, I think for this episode, and I think it's a perfect, you know, early January episode to do because a lot of us were really trying to figure out we're we're super intentional oftentimes in January and the beginning of January. How are we going to get our money game straight? How are we going to do better than we did in twenty nineteen? And tons of Americans have a real difficult to getting their

personal finances together. Right there, There's a lot of folks out there, for many different reasons that have a hard time saving any money, investing any money, building wealth. And and that's what the show is about. We want to help people in all sorts of different walks of life achieve a modicum of financial independence in their lives. But they have a hard time making that progress with their different money goals that they're loosely trying to achieve. And

I say loosely because mostly those goals are aspirational. There's no rubber meeting the road. And also there's this problem that achieving financial goals can be hard and boring. Right, Like people are like snooze fest, let me let me kick off the how of money guys and go listen to some like murder Mystery Show or something like that. Right, And I understand like those might be more funds, maybe

sounds a little bit more fun. We're fun though, Hey, that's why we have a beer because we wanted to make personal finances a little more approachable and like, and that has a lot to do with our show, Like, I think gamification is just a perfect episode for us to cover. Yeah, so, so, really, how do we take these hopes and these dreams and turn them into this debt slaying, wealth building reality. Well, the fact is gamification, Like,

that's what we're talking about here. When we can gamify our personal finances, that can help us to actually achieve some of those goals like paying down debt, like saving and investing more of our money when it would otherwise be something that we wouldn't do at all. Right, It will also likely make the entire process more speedy and fun as well. Gamification triggers our emotions, and it can lock us into a course of action that would be harder for us to pursue were it not for the

implementation of these game like elements. Yeah, I think for a lot of us, a goal for is a great aim for this year is for to have a better relationship with money in general. And one thing that can help you achieve that is to modify your approach and think about money more like a game. Gamification helps us reframe this difficult subject and turn it into something that we can be a little more curious and experimental with.

I think sometimes, Matt, that curiosity, that experimentation, when we're able to approach money from that angle as opposed to this like hard nosed Excel kind of angle, it can really give us a lot more leeway to jump in with both feet and to kind of get excited about seeing some move some changes with our finances. Yeah, that's true, because it's fun, right, And here's the thing. We like fun, But at the same time, it's not the end goal, right, Like,

it's just a means to an end. Hopefully over time, by the repeated action of doing the smart thing because it happens to be fun, that can transform the way that we actually view that action. So when it comes to our money, we don't necessarily care that something is fun, only that it leads to improved behavior when it comes to your money, that it gets you doing whatever it

is that you should be doing. I think there's sort of a warning in this as well, where we need to make sure that we're not getting sucked into the game itself, because sometimes we can kind of lose sight of the larger goals, right. I'm specifically thinking of coupons because people they see the coupon and they think that's such a great deal. Well cool, would you have purchased

that overpriced you know, cheese? Otherwise maybe not? And so in that case you're taking advantage of maybe a specific deal, but the big picture is you spent more on that fancy cheese. Well, you know what I hate more than anything over price cheese. I'm glad you brought up that example, because that is a thorn in my side. My friend, Well, I know you're just joking, and I would actually love it if we had a beer in cheese paring. That sounds nice. Would that be? Oh my gosh, we'd be

a fancy show then. But you know what, we couldn't do that. All They has some pretty nice cheeses, though at a reasonable price. I will say, yeah, I like all the cheese. All right, Matt. Since we're talking about gamification quickly, I gotta know, like, do you have like a favorite game, current or past? Maybe? Well, okay, So one that comes to mind is have I ever told you about what I affectionately used to call dt D. No, it's a desktop tower defense. Was this like back in

the Prince of Persia days? Where you playing. That's also another fantastic game back in the speaking of computers from oh five, and I was like computers from ninety five, right, Uh No, it was this little flash game on this website and a very highly addictive simple game. But I spent way too many of my lunch breaks at my former advertising job playing that dumb game. And this is

before we had kids as well. So I would come home and I would play it at home sometimes too, Okay, would hear the music playing the little sound effects, and she would roll her eyes, you know, like she's trying to convince me to stop wasting my time on this on the silly game, because I really really liked it. Don't look it up, by the way, because I'm not even kidding you would totally all right, I'll avoid it

them like the Plague. It's really good, I think so, but probably my favorite, yeah what about you video game for a long time. I mean, I played a lot of NBA Jam back in the day. That's pretty good. Physical wise, I like spike Ball and disc golf a lot, right, those are my two favorite games. If if you're listening to Mike Ball, you and me last time we played, you mean we teamed up. We did. We tore it up completely dominated nice little deal. They were like little

nas and uh Billy ray Ciris something like that. I'm not sure which one is which I'm little a little nas, Okay on the minority. I'll take that. I'll take that. Yeah. And for folks listening who haven't played spike ball, get on it. It's a great sport. It's fun. But we typically play games because there are a ton of fun and we enjoy them, right, and if we received some sort of like side benefit from the game, well it's

just just a bone. This and strategy board games will They get us thinking and they keep us sharp and it makes you think about Matt Episode five, we talked about nerdy board games. We love nerdy board games as well. Also playing in like a Rex soccer league, well that can help keep us fit. But the fact the games are fun is at the root of why we played them. And depending on who you ask, they'll give you different

reasons why games are fun. Maybe it's a competition that you're drawn to, or the prize at the end of the game or at the end of the season, the trophy that you get. Maybe, but there are aspects of a game that make it fun, and that's what we're focusing on in this episode. Yeah, when we can figure out what it is about a particular game that we love and that we're drawn to, well, then we can bridge that gap between a game that we love and

our personal finances. That's what we believe here. We can take those principles from something we find naturally appealing and apply them to something that most folks financially boring, like saving and investing our money. So will budgeting ever be as fun as playing candy Crush or playing Fortnite? Probably not. But if we can bring even a action of the excitement to our personal finances that we have towards the games that we play, I think we'll all likely see

our money in better places. In Yeah, So we're gonna go over kind of some of the things that make gaming fun and the way we can translate that to how we handle our money, and then a lot of really good examples I think that we've got we throughout this episode that you're going to be able to apply to your life. Now that you can change the way you handle your money, you can gamify it, and you know what it's going to have a massive impact on

how your personal finances are handled. In like it's going to be able to help you make real changes in your life. And we'll get to some of that stuff right after the break. All right, Joel, we are back from the break, and let's talk now about what makes games fun. Right the rest of this episode, we're going to try and figure out what it is about games that we enjoy and they we're gonna apply those things

to our personal finances. Man, I honestly think it's a little ironic that we're analyzing what it is that makes games fun, because it kind of sounds like one of the nerdiest, at least fun things that we've ever discussed. Right. It's sort of like if you were to take a college course on how to do stand up, Like you're analyzing a joke that's not really how it's supposed to

be enjoyed. But at the same time, I think this is really important because I think there really are principles about games, and if we think about them in the right light, well, then we can take these principles and apply them to any problem that we're faced with, any sort of personal finance challenge, to find a way to make it stickier, to make it something that we will actually accomplish over time instead of kind of just kicking it to the side after that New Year's resolution kind

of phase kind of wears off. Yeah. Yeah, a quick goal. It's easy to throw out a quick couple of financial goals, But implementation is where it gets hard, right, That's where it becomes more difficult. The stick tuitiveness, and I think sometimes gamification can help us stick to it. And so, yeah, what's one of the major reasons we like games, Well, one of them is competition. We like watching our favorite sports team beat up the rival cross town sports team.

Like that is as old as America itself, right, So, so many of the best sports and games out in the world today are ones that involve playing against our beating an opponent. Anytime you can bring some competition in the picture, things are bound to get more fun. Even if you're not playing directly against a friend, you're trying to beat the final boss, the final level, You're trying to put a nail in the coffin of that game. You're trying to be done with it, and I want

to beat that game exactly. Have those braggen rights, right, And so Matt. Let me give you a quick example. So my my boss, Christa, she had this spin class birthday party and I brought my bike to work, so I was like, cool, it's gonna be fun. I don't really do spin class, never done it before actually until this party. But I ride to work every day some boss, So we'll see how this goes. I will say I was not up to her level because she's like a

spin class master. But different than running a bike. It is different. It is different. Yeah, I mean it's they're definitely obviously you're using some of your hands instead of your legs. Yeah, exactly, That's what I was doing when I was down on all four been doggy paddle class. Oh you didn't tell me that, but like they had this pumped up music and instructors that were super excited and getting us motivated. And then also on top of that, the thing for me that had the leaderboard, and the

leaderboard was what motivated me to go even harder. So sometimes on my on my bike to work or home, I'll take it. I'll take it nice and leisurely, like I won't go super hard because who's it benefiting if I go harder? It's just me right, it's it's it's my health. It's good for me. But ultimately I'm not competing against anyone. But when I had that leaderboard in front of me, man, it made me like go twice

as hard. I saw people were rising and falling second by second, and so you're like, oh, man, I just dropped down at number six or seven, and I want to be top five. So I started going harder and harder. And so obviously it's different riding a spin class bike and and competing with other people on the leaderboard versus just my normal ride into work. Ultimately, I think I like my ride into work a little bit better. Like but that is one of those things that off times

we're drawn to when it comes to games. Is that high level of competition that we can experience. Sure, Well, quick question to Crystal win because it was her birthday party, right, we should have let her win. I don't remember. I don't remember who wanted. Months back. I don't think she wanted, but I think she's like top three, she's really good. Nice.

I've never done that. Maybe I will someday. Well, competition, right in your example, it's very clear what the point of that class was like they've got the leaderboard up there. You want to win, You want to you want to be at the top of the heap. When it comes to our money, the point isn't always super clear and straightforward, right, And so because of that, I think we tend to default to what comes easiest and the most natural to us, and that's to compete with those around you, right, like

with your friends and co workers. Just like you do with any sort of game that you play or any sort of competition that you enter your you typically compete against other people. When you think about it, I think this can be a really unhealthy view of competition when you are looking at it through the lens of your

personal finances, right when you're thinking about your money. If you're looking at it that way, if it's always the competition, this can lead to sort of that keeping up with the Joneses mentality of spending way more than you should.

With this view, and if you kind of approach your personal finances with that in mind, you're sort of entering the arena with that scarcity mindset, right jel Like if you hear people talking about like not focusing on getting your slize of the pie, but let's work on growing the pie. And I think that's completely true when it comes to our money. When it comes to our personal finances in the real world, your money has very little

to do with my money. If you max out your four own k or your roth ira A, what does that mean I have less money to max out my rath ire. No, there's very little impact if your personal finances online, we're not actually competing. Yeah, I think to what we can see on the surface is completely different than what reality looks like when when we're talking about money. So let's take for example, uh, like what percentage of NFL players go bankrupt once their career is over. It's

it's something astronomical. It's like eight eventually file for bankruptcy. And that's a terrible statistic. But those people have earned oftentimes more money in one year than most of us will see in a whole entire lifetime. And then you look at somebody like Warren Buffett who's lived in the same house for thirty or forty years and eats at

McDonald's every single morning. I mean, it's this sort of man because it's so good, right and healthy for you, and it's one of those things that sometimes having money it's not reflective on the surface. And actually, you know, when you dig in deeper an old school book, something like the Millionaire next Door, and you see that the way that millionaires live, actually it's pretty hard to tell

that they're millionaires. And so I think sometimes that's where we get hung up is we see other people living a lifestyle that reflects having money. But ultimately the people that are living a lifestyle where it looks like they have money, oftentimes they don't have that much money and they haven't been handling their money well. And there's credit card debt funding that lifestyle that we just don't know

about that's not apparent on the surface. Yeah, dude, so true, Like so much of personal finance is hidden, right, Like all that's visible is maybe that big house or that new car. Really, though, the true challenge and the true competition will vary for each person depending on where they are life, like maybe it might be to get out of debt or to save up enough money for a

down payment on a home. What we need to do is just to make sure that we have clearly identified what game it is that we want to play and what our specific challenge will be. This is so vital to making progress with our money because dude, after all, like who cares to win a game that they wouldn't even naturally choose. Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I think. All right, let's give an example to kind of help connect the dots. So I think, when it comes to

our money, you're not competing with those around you. And that's really really important to remember. Even though competition is these one one of these main elements in gaming and the things that we enjoy about gaming, Well, when it comes to money, with take a different approach. You're competing with yourself. It's not who has the nicest car, it's the You have to think more along the lines of I have a dumb car payment and I want to pay it off as quickly as possible. Right, you have

to reframe things, and so how do you do that. Well, you do that by potentially gamifying the way you make payments, and so, like, one way to do that is to round up your payments. So let's say your car payment every month is bucks. Well, if you can round it up to a solid even number of four hundred bucks,

you're going to pay it off more quickly. You're going to avoid some of those interest payments, and ultimately you're going to own your car much more quickly than you would have had you stuck to just the normal payment amount. So I think it's important to note that there are different ways that you can implement this into your life.

But more than anything, you have to realize that the competition is not with the people around you, because if you do that, that is when, like you said, Matt, it's going to be this keeping up with the Jones mentality, because really, more than anything, it's a competition with yourself as you're striving after your goals for your future. Yeah.

Another example I'm thinking of two is you know how, like a lot of utilities have budget billing like that as an option where it's really even and it's the same every month. But what they do is that they build in the fact that they know that there's gonna be some months that are really low and there's also gonna be some months that are really high, and so they're gonna make sure that they cover all of that.

And so instead, one of the things that you and I both like to do is make sure that we are receiving our bills delivered to us where we have to pay it manually. And this kind of goes against a lot of the advice out there as far as automating your bills. But you and I both are in a position where you know, we can afford a little bit of time to pay bills manually. And when you're faced with that bill and you see the cost of your power, you see the cost of your electricity, or

you see your water bill. Like for me, like, if I can keep my water bill at six and if I cannot let it jump up to that next tier of eighty eight bucks, that's a win for Me've won. I've won exactly. But when I see it go up to that eighty eight bucks, I think, oh, you win this time, Watershed of Atlanta. But I'm coming for you next month. Right, Yeah, we're all about automating your finances. Like I think that's you know, that's something we're gonna

talk about soon. Automation is key to our success when it comes to our finances. But but one of the ways that you can gamify things. I like to look at every bill in the face every month, and one of those things that I don't sign up for his budget billing, and that's because I want to get the bill. I want to get my heating bill in the winner in January or February, and I want to see, Okay,

how much did I spend this month? And you know what, if I spent more than I like when I see the bill and it gives me that tiny bit of bill shock, it makes me want to lower the thermostat. It makes me want to make a behavioral change. And I think sometimes if you choose the budget billing and it's a constant bill every single month for the whole year, it doesn't force you to kind of come to grips with reality and then make it behavioral change based on

what you've seen. And so I mean, everybody can make their own decision on this, but I think that's a good way of helping you kind of gamify things, is by looking those bills in the face every single month and then being forced to make on the fly behavioral changes in order to to help you lower those expenses, lower those bills. Yeah, that's right, Like this is an instance where it's good to feel that hurt, you know, like like you don't want to be on a constant

drip of morphine where you don't feel the pain. You're not gonna feel the consequences of your actions. Yeah for sure. All right, Joe. So we're talking about other people, right, We're talking about how the competition are not the people who are around us. But when you're playing a game, there are times when the people around you can actually help help you in a positive and affirming way, and

that's when you're on the same side. Working together is crucial for any team sport out there, and aside from team sports, is even crucial for like some nerdy your board games like Pandemic or even Dungeons and Dragons, which, by the way, did you ever played Dungeons D and D as a kid? Never played it? But uh and I always thought it was kind of like super nerdy. But I think I don't know. I've heard some good stuff about it, and I think I'd give it a shot.

The thing is at the core of working together on a team is communicating and working together to achieve that shared goal, that common goal. Yeah for sure. I mean teamwork is is huge and and that's one of the things we love about games, right. I love watching soccer. I love the way a team can pass the ball. I think, honestly, that's the first thing that attracted me to soccer was the incredible passing abilities of some of the guys on the field, and it was like, oh man,

this is a really neat team sport. Uh. And so yeah, money. When it comes to our money, the same can be true. Teamwork can have a major impact. Step one is to talk about our finances and how we're spending, saving, and investing. Like Matt, we're big advocates for people opening their mouths with their friends and family and talking about money more and making it less of a taboo topic. But let's

take it to the next level. Think about how much we'd be able to help each other out by asking more questions, by giving specific advice, and supporting each other when times are tough. Connecting with your partner or a good friend in real life, I mean, that's ideal, that's perfect, that's amazing. And if you're both able to set some shared goals like paying down student loans or saving up enough for a great trip for some travel, well, how much more impactful is that When you have a teammate

on your side. It feels like you're fulfilling this even bigger goal and you're doing it with someone else. Uh And Matt We've mentioned a couple of apps before that make it even more helpful. Like we're talking about gamification, sometimes apps and websites are really helpful on our road to UH gamifying our personal finance life. The Twine app is great for helping couples safer goals together, and Zeta is another really good one. Will link to both of

those in the show notes. UH and finding online communities is clutched as well. Our Facebook group is a great place where we're individuals are working together as this kind of massive hive mind to help each other out. I love seeing that, man. I love that people are able to kind of spur each other on, encourage each other, and then also answer questions. I think collaboration allows this potential for outside success. We can kind of accomplish more

together than we can apart. Yeah, it's so great about it. You're sharing knowledge, but there's that accountability as well, and that's just such a key component of getting stuff done. So we're gonna talk about some more of the different addictive components that make games so fun, and we're gonna get to those right after the break. All right, Matt, we're back to the break. We're talking about gamification. We're talking about what makes games fun and how we can

apply those principles to our personal finances. And you just mentioned a really interesting word right before the break you what did I say? You said, addicted? And it's really interesting. We're in an age where people are a did to certain games. Like I think about Fortnite. I thought, you're gonna call me out with my desktop Tower defense because there was a period where I think I would have

qualified as addicted to that thing. Well, I don't think you're playing it still to this day, but I have to admit that in quote unquote researching for this episode, I thought, I wonder if that thing is still up. Yep, it is, and you played it for a few hours. I sat down to it for about thirty minutes. Well, I mean, just remember a shame to say, but remember when Words with Friends was hot like that that was

I mean, people were addicted to it. They were pulling it out in the bathroom, they were pulling it out at the dinner table, they were pulling it out all over the place, and and so yeah, I mean I think games can have this addictive component, and I think we can take some of those best elements of the addictive component of games and apply that to our money where it's healthy and not destructive exactly exactly and not being used in a terrible way that actually ruins us.

And Yeah, one of those major things that games do for us is is this achievability element. There are levels to a game for a reason. Right there. It's breaking up these larger goals. There are many bosses along the way that you get to beat up until you get to the big boss. Nobody wants to play something that they're never going to win, that game that they're never gonna win, that's too hard. Well, you just mentioned soccer

a second ago. This makes me think of America and soccer, and I've heard that that's one of the big arguments why people think that soccer is not going to take in the US and why basically hasn't taken up until maybe recently. But like, who wants to play a sport that you can't win or that you're not very good at? Right, It's like, oh, they tied at the end. What that's ridiculous. And I remember thinking that that's not American, right. I remember thinking the exact same thing, you know, when I

first got introduced to soccer. I was like, that's stupid. In America, we win or we lose, right, Yeah, so true, man, I feel like a lot of people are not going to be able to get excited about something that they're not going to be able to win at. And I think when we're talking about personal finances, this is a game that all of us can win in one degree

or another. Like we can all do better with our personal finances, and that's what makes this I think we can use this kind of these gamification elements to give us small winds along the way that lead to kind of this ability to achieve something even bigger. Yeah, we want to win, or like we at least want to see some progress, like like some of those baby steps. If you can see progress, like a lot of times,

that's all that it takes. But in regards to our money, we have to balance that challenge of a particular money goal with the likelihood of us actually being able to achieve that goal. We need to be realistic and actually ask ourselves, like, is this even doable? Can I own six testlas? Uh? Maybe it just depends gonna take a while, but yeah, I'll not know. Like you might want to become a billionaire, But really, what are the chances of

that actually happening? And while that's important to consider, even a modest goal like saving up enough money to pay for a new car, just a new use car that's not a Tesla in cash, like, even that can feel insurmountable. But the trick is to actually break it up into smaller steps that you can actually make some progress on. This actually makes me think of Joe My. We're talking about soccer here. The US is going to be hosting the World Cup in right, and I looked up last year.

I looked up some of the average ticket prices of what the World Cup tickets were going for in Russia, and I figured that it might cost our family if we wanted to go to just like a standard match, like one of the I don't know, maybe one of the group matches or maybe one of the semis. It might cost our family about three thousand dollars to go to a single soccer game, which sounds pretty dumb, right, Like, that sounds pretty ludicrous and that sounds totally overwhelming, Like

how can you justify that? But be how do you actually save that much money? That's also kind of a once in a lifetime thing, right, Like I remember when the Olympics were in Atlanta. I got to go to one basketball games and it was so cool. Like the fact that I got to go to an Olympic that's pretty cool. Sporting event is one of those things that almost nobody gets to do. It's so cool to think that that happens. So it's really expensive, but it's also

something that might be on somebody's like bucket list. Understandable exactly. If that's something you value, then you want to make sure that you're taking the steps to make that a priority in your life. But the fact is it doesn't matter who you are. Well, I guess it does matter who you are, But if you're a normal person like us, three thousand dollars to take your family to a match seems ridiculous a single match, But if you do the math, we'll have a little over six years before the World

Cup is upon us. And if you break that out to how much we would need to set aside every month, it's about thirty five bucks And that sounds doable, exactly, Like that's what's so crazy is that this massive, audacious goal of saving three thousand dollars to go to the World Cup. Well, all of a sudden, it seems like nothing. Thirty five bucks is totally doable, and at the same time, it's not something that feels overwhelming to me. I feel

that that's something I can actually make progress on. I can handle all those little levels of adding thirty five bucks to that pot, you know, month after month. But if all of a sudden I had to show out three grand, it's probably not gonna happen, or it's just gonna really stress me out. Yeah, it's a good point. Yeah, breaking up that larger goal into smaller chunks is gamifying

the process. That makes it so much more feasible and so much more fun too, to be like, you know what, I can do it and and to start actually going

for it. And Matt, it makes me think too about Back in the episode, we talked to our friend j d Roth, who writes at the site Get Rich Slowly, and we talked for a little bit about the stages of financial independence and if we think about those stages as levels in a game, well, they can help our approach and accelerate our ability to move more quickly through those stages. And the question then is how well mental shifts are so huge in helping us actually create change

in our lives. So if we're thinking of our personal finances in a more gamelike fashion, it will make a big difference in how we handle our money. In those stages are so helpful in visualizing our future and what it can look like. If we think about financial independence on kind of this long extended timeline, and that we're achieving a little bit more of it over time as we put more aside for the future and we invest more in our retirement accounts and we're just generally doing

better with our money. That's so much easier to comprehend than this zero to one overnight kind of thing. Right, It's the exact same thing as saving up for that World Cup match. That thirty five dollars a month feels so different than a three thousand dollar bill that hits you right then and there. And so yeah, I think stages, process goals being broken up over time are huge and helping us handle money better. Yeah, it's a much easier

pill to swallow. And man, that's something that stuck with me as well when j D was talking about those different stages well, becoming financially independent, that sounds like this huge thing that I would never be able to accomplish. Like it sounds like climbing kill him and jarro or something like that, doesn't it like with your eyes clothes or something like, you know, like it just seems so impossible.

And I know we're not alone. I think for a lot of folks, it really does just seem like this insurmountable obstacle, this this challenge that's just too big, and when that happens, they can shut us down and it keeps us from moving forward at all. And so, yeah, just kind of breaking it up into these smaller, bite sized chunks will allow us to make progress. And when we make progress, we see that traction, we see that progress, and it allows us to continue on and fight that

good fight. Yeah. So there's this guy named James Clear and he writes about habits, and one thing he says is that getting one percent better every day is kind of his goal. And he talks about how just getting one percent better in a day like that seems like it's not that important, but when you compound a getting one percent better over sixty five days of that year, if you do it every day, then ultimately the end, you're so much better off than if you had never

taken that action in the first place. And so I think sometimes when we when we're able to kind of think about it like that, these small changes over a long period of time, that they make a really huge difference. Seeing a little progress in a game, it just reinforces our desire to participate in that game. Seeing your debt level drop because you're rounding up your payments is a great reinforcement too, and it kind of almost, Matt, I think,

becomes this like self fulfilling prophecy. And so I think one thing that we can do a specific kind of method of gamification that we can adopt in our financial life is to create a list of I call them like level ups and attempting to do one a month. When when you say level up, I hear like the sound of when you get the mushroom and Mario Brothers or you or no, you like and when you hit the flag and you slide down the flagpole like yeah.

But I think, yeah, if we can do these level ups, these are the even bigger things that we can accomplish. And if we set ourselves up for success by choosing to tackle one a month, right, that's not that's not too much, that's not overkill. Well, then I think that it's going to have a massive impact. So one month, let's say January, you designed to switch self Hope providers and and find a much cheaper service and save yourself

a hundred plus dollars a month. That's a great level up, Like, that's a big difference that you can make in your life. In February, if you haven't opened an I ra A yet, well that's the next thing to do. And so opening up an account with the Guard Fidelity or in one gets you motivated and you start to to see the progress of that hundred dollars a month that you're starting to put in there a crew and make a bigger difference.

You're starting to see the progress while seeing your balance build only increases your motivation level and it really does become this thing that just kind of continues to feed on itself. Yeah, something else that folks can do is instituting a no spend month. Something like that can jump start or even supercharge your savings and curb some of

that unnecessary spending. The reason for this is because like it's it's hard, or it's it's even unrealistic, to make cuts like that for an entire year, right, Like, who's gonna be able to do that? Just not really possible. But if you try to do that for a single month, well man, that is totally achievable. In these smaller achievable winds can also help us to feel more optimistic. So you could even apply that to like one area of spending in your life. If you've had trouble spending too

much eating out. You're spending two or fifty bucks a month eating out, and you're like, man, we gotta curb this something that we like, but we really want to kind of curb that spending in our life. Well, you know it, take February. Uh, it's a shorter month, which makes it just a little bit easier to three days easier. Yeah, exactly, And so you know what, you say, We're not gonna

eat out for all of February. We're gonna save that two or fifty bucks and we're gonna bank it towards something that we we really want to save for, or even open that investment account that we haven't opened yet. I think a no spend month in a particular category or kind of overall, not spending anything online or whatever.

These are the kind of challenges that probably aren't sustainable over a long period of time, but they can be kind of that jump start, like that game Genie to kind of help us get going right, because that game Gennie was the worst to kind of forbe like sucked all the fun of it because there was no there's no more challenge, right, Okay, maybe it's the Mario Star when you get the Star and like you can't get

shells can't hit you. Yeah, you can run through the whole level without getting hit for at least a period of time, exactly. All right, Let's talk about an aspect of games make them fun that everyone's pretty much aware of, which is the reward, the goal or the prize at the end of the game. Part of what makes any game so fun in addictive is the fact that there's gonna be some sort of fantastic price at the end

of the slock. You know, we're talking about Mario Brothers here, thinking about beating Bowser at the end of Mario Brothers three. Can you feel the fireballs like it wasn't passion? Is your heart pounding because you're afraid you're gonna die? Yeah? The Cortisol is pumping through my blood. You know, we probably wouldn't play any game if there wasn't a final reward or a feeling of accomplishment that came with beating

the game. And so when it comes to our personal finances, the final reward might be, you know, a massive down payment for a house, or maybe paying off your student loans, or maybe even the ultimate goal, which is achieving financial independence. But we often don't celebrate these smaller wins and these milestones. And I'm thinking of things like just maybe paying off a specific credit card debt or even setting up a

basic emergency fund. These are wins that we achieve, but we don't necessarily recognize them like we do when you hit financial independence, or maybe when you buy that house, because when you buy that house, you throw up, you know, a housewarming party, and it feels like you've accomplished something. These smaller goals and these smaller rewards along the way,

I think are so crucial. So rewarding ourselves in small ways along the way, it's so important as we continue up the mountain towards whatever larger financial goals that we might have. So for example, Man, sometimes it's just the small things like Sometimes those rewards are huge, and those are the things that are impactful, like winning a super Bowl. But for me, sometimes it's the small things that they

go a long way. Every time I up the percentage, for instance, in in my company four oh one K on the Vanguard website, streamers fly and it says like the big congratulations and then they send me an email afterwards. Yeah, it makes me feel so good man, I'm like, all right, I did I did something great. Yeah. It's it's it's like a little dopamine release. What you're doing there is you're realizing it emotionally. You know in your head cognitively

that that's what you're supposed to do. But by having that little reward, like the little streamers that kind of flash across and like the con eddie that drips down your screen, like you're feeling that in a very small and digital way, but you're still feeling it emotionally. And that's I think what's so important. And that's what celebrating things is all about. Right. It's it's not saying that cool, you did a good job. It's like, well I know that.

But a celebration or a party or a small reward, we're not talking about going out and blowing all the money that you've saved, but that connects it to you emotionally. And I think that's kind of what's missing in our world today, right, Like we live in such a culture that is so focused on performance and hitting goals and

quotas and things like that. But the thing is, as soon as we hit those things, what happens we set the next one exactly Like typically the bar gets raised, and we don't often spend a lot of time celebrating.

And I'm not saying we need to sit around patting ourselves on the back all the time, but I think if we can actually recognize that, man, something significant was accomplished here, that's we're celebrating, and those little rewards along the way can help us to achieve those larger financial goals. I think when you don't celebrate those little financial wins,

I think that's when people get burned out. Right. If you're constantly just on this march and you're not really looking up, you're just got your nose to the grindstone, you're just working hard, well, I think someone has a better chance of burning out in that kind of situation and then ultimately not actually achieving the financial goals that they've set out to achieve. Thrown in the towel completely, and yeah, man, it's amazing to me for some reason

that this little Vanguard stream I mean, it's their websites. Honestly, it's very terrible. It's not very usual friendly, and the streamers are kind of They're still a fantastic company. Yeah, yeah, and we recommend them completely. They're great, but the streamers are so like two thousand three at the graphics are

not good. But it's amazing that that sticks out in my mind that they kind of encourage me in that way and that it is important, Like it is important how they do that, and these little behavioral things that do connect to you, and on a deeper level, these small, small rewards that are seemingly insignificant can be super meaningful

in just kind of helping us to continue moving forward. Man, I gotta say, it makes me wonder if I hit some sort of like let's say I completely max out my four one K, or I hit like a certain percentage, if they've got these like streamers that I haven't seen yet that are even better, right, Like they're they're only giving me the basic ones now for for being like a solid saver. But you know what, if you hit the complete nineteen max, maybe they've got these like super

dope streamers. Yeah, like the batalic confetti, so like shines a little extra on your screen there. I mean, I

think they they're holding something back once I hit that point. Well, So, like we're talking about the different aspects that the different elements that make games fun, that make them addictive, like we said earlier, and we think this is really important that if we can identify these things and kind of bridge the gap a little bit between these fun games, the things that we find enjoyable and our money in our personal finances, that we can also make our personal

finances more enjoyable and something that we will give more attention to. But it's also important to note that gamification can only get you so far. Right, maybe due to your personality type, you're really into games and you can get austin the fun of it. But for a lot of folks, maybe the novelty will weigh at times or even completely wear off. And so when this happens, it's really important to have an overarching mission statement. Joel, you know you kind of mentioned the why behind your money.

That is a really important thing to have. Having that storyline that transcends the elements of simple gamification that you've been able to work in your personal finances, that storyline that will help to revitalize you when you're filling down or maybe when you feel like that you're not winning

when it comes to your money. Yeah, of course, Matt it it is essential for us to go back and think about the underlying things, that the goals, that ultimate goals that we have, the ultimate why behind our money, the mission statement that we want to live our lives by. But the reason that gamification is important is that it can really meet us at the level of implementation, and gamification can be this massive boon to our ability to stick to those goals of saving more and eliminating debt.

And it can also just help money stuff in general feel less frustrating. These small ways in which we can amend our behavior or change our approach can help us make really big money moves this year that we otherwise might not have been able to do. So, Yeah, I'm interested to hear how other people gamify their money, like the the tools that they're using and the ways that

they're adapting their behavior. And so, yeah, if you have some specific ways that you're gamifying your money in a really massive way, or that you've been able to make massive changes through kind of some gamification techniques, please share those in the Facebook group for all of us to see, because that kind of stuff is so helpful. Matt and I we don't know at all. We don't know all the ways to gamify our money, but but we do know that it's an important method for us to consider. Yeah,

and different methods work for different people as well. So something that might work for one person, like rounding up their car payment, well that sounds like a fantastic idea to somebody, right, they're gonna be able to get another couple of payments in and pay that car off early. But to somebody else that may not resonate as well. So for that person, that's who we want to hear from. We want to hear some of those other tricks. Yeah, for sure. All right, let's get back to the year

that we had on the show today. We had a lovely beer from modern times called astral Prism. This is a double I p A sent to us by my buddy Craig, who's a brewer out there, Matt, what were your thoughts on this beer? Well, Joel, I have to say that I am a massive fan of this beer. Monern Times man, they've just got my number. The way that they make their beers completely and totally resonate with me. This double I PA to me is really good. It has this massive hot presence, but it's not this this

happiness that leads to bitterness. It's pretty sweet. But the hops they make themselves known with the pungent nature, you know, like the herbally nous. But this is a really fantastic beer poured nice and hazy. This is the type of I PA for mama that's just completely in my wheelhouse. How about you? What were your thoughts on this beer? Yeah? I thought for a double I PA, it was pretty

mellow in like a really good way. Like it definitely tons of hot presence, but it was so nicely balanced that it wasn't like punching me in the mouth in any sort of crazy ways. And it had some notes of guava. Obviously we have a lot of i pas on the show. I thought this one was super tasty. I love what Modern Times is doing. They make a ton of I p a s I don't know if you'd even be possible in our lifetime to drink them all. I mean, I think that's a little bit of an overtatement.

But but but they make that many. I mean, you just wait there, dedicated to the craft of making tons of great i pas, and this one was just a really good representation of what they're really really good at of making something that is like juicy but mellow, tasty, a little sweet, and just incredibly appetizing. So yeah, I

really appreciated this beer astral prism for modern times. Yeah, you and I were lucky enough to swing by the Dankness Dojo and that what their what their spaces called down there in downtown l A. We're out there last year, and uh yeah, we're a big fan of what they're doing. And you mentioned aguava. That's that's pretty astute. I feel like I totally can't pick up on some like some more tropical fruit flavor notes there. I totally dig that. Yeah,

don't mess with my palette, bro. All right, that's gonna be it for this episode. Really fun Matt talk about gamification with you, and we'll have links to some of the apps and some of the sites that we mentioned up on our website at how to money dot com. Yeah, Juel. Speaking of the website, we've got that credit card article up there talking about the best credit cards to use depending on how you spend your money. We recently updated that and so we'd recommend for folks to check that

out if you're considering getting a new credit card. We're hoping to be able to provide more helpful information on the website this year, and a lot of the cards that we discussed there, they've got some great sign up bonuses, and so if you were to sign up for a credit card via that article and via those links, it helps out the show. At the same time, everybody that's gonna be it for this episode is that it? That's it, all right, until next time, best Friends as Friends Out