What's going on, buddy?
Hey, Hey, how you doing fantastic?
Yeah?
So, okay, you got the spotlight on Wednesday, it's my turn. Now it is your turn.
And for some reason, I thought that we were going to be sharing your story next week, but no, it's today.
It's Friday. Yeah, so I want to make some sort of a fresh Prince of Ballet rhyme about my life real quick, but I don't. I don't have the skill. It's all about how my life gott But I can't go any further. But yeah, so one thing real quick. You mentioned I'm in Florida. That's part of the reason we're doing a couple of besties.
Yes, oh that's right.
Yeah, let's share why it is that you're down there, the reason we're in Florida. And I think I've talked about this a few times on the show. Had the craziest incident over spring break where a tree got hit by lightning in our front yard and a massive chunk
it exploded. A massive chunk fell through our roof, splinters all over the place in the yard, my neighbor's yards, and so we had to get the tree removal company filing insurance claim, and the house is being repaired as we speak, and we were hoping to find a place close by until we get rent.
It was extend for the summer, extensive work that meant that you were not able to stay in your house and actually had to move out and work for a.
Couple of months. And we're looking for short term rentals up here, and it was like, there's nothing, and so we used it as an opportunity, you know, make some lemonade, to kind of take an extended vacation down to Florida. So that's it's been fun. It's been fun.
It's also part of that interesting Emily's mom being down there. So the idea is that she's you know, helping Emily out with the kids while you are up here on like basically every other week is how we've been doing it back in the summer exactly.
So they're having fun, we're having fun when I'm there. But it's also kind of like, yeah, sometimes you just gotta think outside the box, and this was a way for us to, oh, wait, hey, there's a lot of short term rentals down down in this part of Florida, so we can easily find something. And yeah, it's been it's been kind of a fun experience, but y, it does make it a little more difficult on work action.
But exactly, I got to think you feel a little unmoored as well, right like where it doesn't really feel like you have a home, home base.
But ready to be back in there.
And I suggested too. I was like, well, how about just to your computer down there and we can record remotely. But you just missed me too much, right to be gone for that long? Yeah, we've never recorded, not in the same room. That would be it would be different.
What I mean.
We do interviews all the time, but it's always you and I are sitting here at the table, yeah, sharing a beer, Yeah, while we talk about money or interview somebody else.
But yeah, so we aren't flexible for sure, which is nice, nice to have. So yeah, but this is my money story. It really, honestly has informed so much of why I'm passionate about this subject and how this podcast started to begin with. So without further ado, let's get to it. Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matts. And that's right. The day has come.
It is now time for Joel's money origin story.
That's right, buddy, Today on the show, it's all about me, about you this time. Hooray. No, I'm I'm looking forward to a chat and kind of diving into some of my money backstory. You got to tackle yours last week and it was a lot of fun. I learned a little bit. I hope our listeners learned a lot. And yeah, this week it's my turn in the hot seat.
Does everything feel backwards? Because I kind of announced the actual title of this episode you brought us back from the break with the music, feels like left is right and up is down exactly, which makes me think of those bicycles were like they're engineered so that if you steer left, it actually goes right. Have you seen these mind cluster where like you literally can't ride it and it takes I don't know, like like tons of practice.
I think it would take a long time to retrain your brain.
Exactly, because once you've been doing something for so long, it's it feels really awkward sometimes.
And just a small thing like this does who introduces the podcast episode? Yes, but before we get to my money story, and yeah, there's a lot I think we're gonna cover. I don't know, I mean, it's really it's up to you, so we'll see where it goes. But I wanted to mention one thing quickly that one of my friends, his name is Brennan. He goes by the Moniker budget Dog on Instagram and Twitter.
Yeah.
Literally, I asked him how he got that name, and he was like sitting there with his dog while he came up with it. So it just like really was like like budgets, yeah, exactly. So he's a good dude and he's doing a lot of great work with a dawg. Sadly, no, yeah he did not, you know, that's how it goes. But he mentioned the other day on Twitter, and I had not heard of this company before, a company to help you roll over your old four oh one K
and it's called Capitalize. And I looked into this because I was like, all right, Brennan knows what he's talking about. What is this thing? And it is this cool? It's actually Capitalized was named one of Times Top in Mentions for twenty twenty one. And it is this site where you get to go roll over your four o one K for free into an IRA And there are a whole lot of reasons to do this, like we could
get into all the nuance. We're not going to because that's not what the this episode is about, but we'll link to it in the show notes. And it's just one of those cool things. Yeah, if you have an old retirement account sitting somewhere else and you want to move it to a place with lower fees and better fund options, a place like Capitalized is going to help
you do that. They're going to handle the paperwork, which is like, for me, the most annoying part usually, And so yeah, it just it seems like this cool new service, and I wanted to mention it. Will We'll again put a link to the show notes. And yeah, if you if you're one of those people who's like dreading doing the annoying intricacies of personal finance, something as dorky as you know, rolling an account over from a four one K into a new IRA very technical, yes, yeah, but
ultimately not that hard. But Capitalized makes it even easier.
Also, first rule problems, right, Like, are you over here, Joel complaining that you've got too many four one ks from previous the war years that you have to keep up with? Oh what a hard life that is from somebody who's never.
Had a four weeks. Right, Simplification is a huge part of making personal finance is better for people. And if this helps you simplify things, combine everything into accounts with fewer companies, and also we're you can get it that drag of fees at the same time, like it's well, yeah, your time. Yeah, if you're with a provider.
Who, yeah, does not give you the best investing options, you know, I will say if you are able to maintain those accounts and if the investing options are equivalent or similar across the board, there's no magic to combining all your accounts into a single giant account. Right, You're going to earn the same types of returns if you've got one hundred thousand dollars that's spread across three accounts, the same returns that you'd see if all of that
money was just in a singular account. But like you said, it's more of like a mental thing and if that helps you as an individual, then go for it.
Yeah, as long as they're in the same fun choices, right, Yeah, for sure. So yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes. But Matt, let's mention the beer that we're having on this episode. We're drinking a beer called Woodland Pursuit. It's a new England I pa from the folks at Humble Forager, and I'm looking forward to drinking this one while we share my money to origin story.
Tonight's right, and I picked this one up especially for you, and we'll talk about why.
I guess at the end of the episode sounds good.
Well, like last Wednesday's episode, it is it's time for you listeners to really get to know us on a deeper level. Last week, yeah, you got to hear my money story and the experiences that impacted how it is that I view money. And now it's Joel's turn. Hailing from the Pacific Northwest, weighing in a like a one hundred and eighty pounds.
Maybe nine okay nine also the very.
You're the tallest half Norwegians. But yeah, you were raised here in the South. My best friend, Joel lars Guard, he might might have been the cheapest guy I've ever met, which is why I think we immediately hit it off when we first met around a decade ago. I think it also helps a ton our wives hit off as well. True, but I had never met anyone cheaper than me in that saying a lot, And it's no wonder that we
were destined to start a personal finance podcast together. There truly is so much that I already know about you. But like any good story, you start at the beginning. And I realized that I don't know what your first money memory is, and so, yeah, do you have a clear moment when you grasp the concept of money? Also, did you always prefer the Krooklum signature pizza even as a toddler or was that a more of an acquired taste.
Yeah, No, that was later in life. Really, that was a more more recent occurrence. And I will say, actually I talked about this recently on Twitter with somebody how Little Caesars raised the prices of their pizza, that inflation made inflation robbers meeting in the road. But life's too short to really eat cheap pizza too frequently, so usually
spring forth the nicer stuff. But yeah, I guess when it comes to first money memories, probably my first money memory is my parents had like this, this cardboard cut out with like little dimes and nickels and pennies and dollars. Did you ever have one of those where it's like it's like a little learning way to learn about money. And so I remember seeing that, and it was this tangible thing where I got to group them and do addition of attraction and kind of get to figure out how money works.
Okay, I do remember doing that. In elementary school, I had like.
The same cardboard like real to learn time and stuff.
So your parents like stole it from the elementary exactly, your older sister probably ganked it, and then you got to take a look at it.
Sho was a bad one, you know. I learned a lot from that. So yeah, I think that was probably the most early memories I have is kind of playing with those physical cardboard cutout of money. But but then I think my kids had gi Joe's Joel.
Had dollar bills on his stelf all lined up.
Yeah, not necessarily, No, I was not like roomed to be some sort of personal finance nerd. But I think the other thing that sticks out in my mind when I'm thinking about the earliest memories I have of like actual money was when my parents and I had to have conversations about in particularly the shoes that I wanted to buy. I was like super into the fancy basketball shoes of the Day, the Scottie Pippens, the Michael Jordan's, all the all the good stuff that Charles Barkley's. They
all had great shoes. Man, speaking of investments, if only you had gotten a couple of pairs of those and never worn them, yes, the box, I mean, you'd be a multi millionaire thousands at least, right, Yeah, so that's a good point. But yeah, having there was always a conversation between my parents and I because they said, listen, here's a limit on what we're willing to spend four shoes for you. If you want, we can get you these like rebox and you're gonna and you can wear those.
But if you want those nicer shoes, you're gonna have to bring some of your own birthday or Christmas money to the table in order to make it happen. And that was the first time I think I realized trade offs and how important trade offs are when we're talking about personal finances. And sometimes occasionally I did opt for the fancy shoes. I put my money where my mouth was and I was like, this is worth it. And I still remember that Paris Scottie phupans, and they were worth it.
They felt so good on your feet.
They were so good. But most of the time I opted to say, I don't know, I'm gonna get the free shoes that mom and dad are gonna buy me. But that's one of those I think first memories I had where it was like, I have a decision and I have money that I can choose whether or not this is worth it or not to me.
Yeah. Well, I mean I love what your parents did there as well, because essentially what they're doing is matching you, right, like they're kind of meeting you. I don't know exactly how much they're willing to bring to the table, but the ability for them to kind of incentivize you to alter your spending, your behavior a little bit, because you could have taken out money and been like, yeah, I really want those shoes, and then you go blow the rest of the money on your Sega Dreamcast or whatever.
I remember you buying from the yard zale or something. But yeah, because I love when parents are able to mimic the different types of patterns and behaviors that were going to encounter in real life, right, Yeah, And so this, I mean, I love that your parents did that, and I look forward to being able to do that with you know, with my kids. I'm sure you're looking forward to doing the same as our kids get older. Oh yeah, so kind of moving along.
You know.
One of the things that I think is really impressive about you is the number of different, like different jobs that I've heard you had while you're in high school.
Like I only worked at the local golf course, but you had a quite varied work history. So yeah, tell us about that, and specifically, did you have a favorite job that you held? Okay, so yeah, I had a bunch of different jobs growing up, and some of them before the age where you're legally allowed to work just stuff in the neighborhood, like mowing lawns, right and that it was like literally my first introduction to making my
own money, and that was empowering. And my dad was just a big help in helping me get that business off the ground, Like had just a few yards in the neighborhood, and he was always willing to help me on a Saturday, which is huge. Like he wasn't just like, all right, go pound the pavement, son, he was like, I know, he was dead tired from working all week, and he still came with me to mow those lines,
which I yeah, major props to my pops. But yeah. Then, at at fourteen, the earliest age you could start working in the state of Georgia, I started working at Chick fil A, and right across the street from my high school was the easiest place to get to, so I could walk straight across and work for three hours before I would go home for the evening. And I still remember my starting wage five dollars and fifteen cents an hour, which was the bare minimum you were allowed to.
Get paid, the far cry from what they're paying today.
But I think my favorite job overall in those years between, like you know, growing up and then getting to college was working at the Eckerd Photo Lab. Okay, that was just like a fun job where I was like getting to interact with people who had just gone on vacation and they turned in their phone. And do people even still do that anymore? I don't think. So there's not like a photo person.
Well they do. I mean they've got the printers, but you just sent in. They don't bring in the roles of film exactly. They send it in from their phone.
But me, I was like manning the machine and changing changing tones. I got like an old school version of photoshop, and then I would get to talk to people about the photos I.
Had seen because you'd seen it and you kind of know who's about to walk into exactly because you've been staring at pictures of them.
Yeah, I'm like, hey, Rome looked like it was fun. Huh how about it?
They're like, dude, stop being a cream So that was a.
Fun trying not to be the Robin Williams from One Hour Photos.
But I mean, so you just enjoyed that. That was just a I mean, they sounded like it was fun from a social standpoint, and knowing you, obviously that doesn't surprise me at all.
Yeah, I just got The way I got to interact with people was probably the most fun part of that.
Did you did you ever have like a really amazing boss or manager who? I don't know. I feel that in the past when I look back to some of the different folks who influenced me, they were always really good teachers. And so for me, for whatever reason, that's something that would stand out to me is the ability to not just do the job and get some stuff done, but the ability to grow as an individual and to learn.
I'm curious if you had some different jobs where you had an individual that stood out to you.
I feel like I've always been lucky to work for awesome people for the most part. Like, there are a couple of bosses I can pull back to and be like, not my favorite, but for the most part, they were great, honestly, And it was one of those good situations where when you're fourteen fifteen and you're completely immature, you need someone who's going to give you like a whole lot of grace as they're kind of helping you grow up into an adult. And that was just a great learning experience
for me having a job early on. But yeah, I think the managers there were super helpful and it was a great experience.
I don't know.
Probably my favorite boss was at the radio station I worked at for like fourteen fifteen years, and just because he was such an encourager and he was such a believer in your talent and abilities, and he was always encouraging not just me, everybody in the building about what
they could do. And I remember reading something actually from a friend recently who she she is a writer and she writes all the time, and she points back to pointing back recently to this high school teacher who told her you're a great writer and like you can do this, and net still is in her mind, motivating her to write to this day, and I think interesting, I look back to some of those conversations when I was working at the radio station and my boss saying like, you
got this, You've got talent, and like you need to keep working at this, but like, I like what you're doing, and that goes a long way in helping foster someone's career. And if you can be that person, I think to tell somebody that they're on the right path or that you like what they're doing, you never know how far those words of encouragement are going to go.
That's funny. Yeah, as you were saying that about your friend who was a writer, it made me think back to when I was in college. One of my professor I was taking advertising classes. I remember her specifically talking about photography because essentially we had to come up with our own little campaign and she's like, hey, this is a pretty great concept. You know, the headline, like the copy is great, but these images are awesome. She's like,
have you ever thought about photography? And thinking back, I realized that maybe that may have been what kind of pointed me in the direction of focusing more on photography. As I got into graphic design, it always had a more photographic lean to it, and then obviously it got into photography as well. And we are actually going to talk more about, you know, your history there at the
radio station. I think I'm going to have a question maybe about the same boss who you mentioned perhaps, But before we get to that though, like before we get to that stage of your life, you know, I think, like here on the show, you've only really just touched on the fact that, like, it wasn't all smooth sailing at home as a kid when it came to money. Do you want to share you know, what I've heard you described before as perhaps your most pivotal money moment.
Sure, yeah, I mean I think this is really when, if there is a inflection point in my personal finance trajectory, it was growing up age basically twelve or thirteen, when my parents ended up filing for bankruptcy. And at the same time after that, the our car got repossessed, and it was one of the things where we knew it was going to happen, we just didn't know when. And one day we were expecting it to happen, and it didn't happen, didn't happen, and then it was gone one morning.
And it was one of those things where I just remember as a kid it was kind of like looming over our heads and at the same time it was money was a constant source of friction in the house. And so yeah, I think I was also at this important age where it left this indelible mark. I mean where it's like my younger sister, she was a little bit younger than me, maybe couldn't not quite old enough
to realize exactly what was going on. My older sister was in high school, she was like dating and working, and I was just at this like hyper impressionable age where that left a major mark and I think has probably still contributed to how how I view money today and just how maybe how intentional I am with it. But yeah, that was the point. It was that it was that age, and it was those things happening in my family's life that made me say, like, you know what,
I want to be good with money. You know, you know what, I want to be good enough with money where I don't ever have to argue about money with my spouse and it's not that you know, Emily and I don't still have money disagreements from time to time, but it's one of those things where we don't want to have get to the point where we're not sure if we're going to have enough, and that leads to conflict sure or us having to do things that we don't want to do in order just to secure more money.
But yeah, that's definitely the probably the most pivotal point in my life when it comes to how I think, in view and do money in personal finance.
Yeah, I mean, we always are going to have disagreements oftentimes with our partners when it comes to money, but you just don't necessarily want all of your conversations to be negative, right, Like, hopefully you are in a position where you can sit down and when you talk about money, it's it's a very good conversation. It's this thing that where maybe you're cracking out, you know, a craft beer
or a bottle of line. You're having this meeting with your partner because you are wanting to look ahead at the different goals that you share or that you're you know that might be looming on the horizon. But you know, I, yeah, I think it's hard to fully understand and you know the impact of an event like that, like as we're growing up, even you know, when decades have passed and we have the benefit of hindsight, do you ever wonder, like,
what would have happened if that had never happened. Do you think that maybe instead you would have been kind of like spendthrift Joel, Like there would have been this alter ego.
Honestly, Zarro Joel, Probably, I think so. Yeah, I think I do think so. I mean, I don't really think about it like that very often, but I do think that left such a mark that I am a different person because it'd be a sneakerhead, and I don't think, yeah, maybe maybe I would be one of those guys spending all his money on fancy sneakers.
You spend more on shoes than I do.
Yes, But I also I don't think of it as this negative experience that I would go back and change, even though at the time it was difficult. I feel like what it's led to has been something really good. And yeah, so I don't think of it as something that I want to go back in a race. But at the same time, that doesn't that doesn't mean it was easy while it was happening.
Sure, it's not something that you would wish that you're planning to happen to your family, to your kids. All Right, So I feel like we've kind of covered young Joel. We're gonna get to a slightly older Joel. We're gonna get to Joel as he entered adulthood. I've got several other questions, including some a question about college, and will actually get to that right after this break.
All right, so we are back.
We're doing a special deep dive episode on Joel's money origin story. Joel, you just shared the experience of having a family car repossessed. But ultimately that wasn't a decision that you yourself made, right, it happened to you. You were kind of more in the passenger seat. Not literally, I was not the one who bought the car exactly you. I did not do the finance. It was you were more in a passive position. I guess is what I'm
getting out here. But while you were in college, you actively made a decision that ended up having a lasting impact on your finances. Can you tell us about that? Sure?
Yes, I mean so while I was in college, the first two years. I ended up going to like a private school in South Carolina, and I think it was the best place for me at the time for the first two years of school. But it was one of those things where I realized halfway through, wait a second, I'm I'm taking on debt to go to the school I got. Fortunately, I got a lot of great scholarships, but still I was at two years into college. A private school. Yeah, costs a lot of money. I had
twelve grand and student debt. And probably a lot of people just laughed when they heard that because they're like, that is nothing that that's like basically Grand Boddy. Sure, that's like books for me exactly, and a lot of people would feel that way, and especially right now, I get it, like the price of education has skyrocketed, of course in the last what fifteen eighteen years, but it's at the same time for me, I said, why why am I here? And can I accomplish the same goal
what I want? Can I get what I want at another school where maybe it's free. And the cool thing about the state of Georgia and a lot of other states have something similar than this thing called the Hope Scholarship, where if you had over a three point oh GPA in high school, you were able to go to college for free in state I mean the in state universities, and so I transferred back and ended up getting my last two years of education for free because of that.
And I was living at home and working at the same time. So it was one of those things where I'm, yeah, I'm really glad I made that choice. Not adding more student loan pain to that bucket load of debt is is something I'm happy I avoided totally.
And let's be honest too, like there's a good chance of you not getting out in two more years. You probably would have been on that five year plan off of that private school.
No, it's interesting. Actually switching back was one of those things where I lost a couple of credits and so I really I had to work even harder, but I'd already been taking like eighteen nineteen hours and so it kind of put me back on the track to like you still got to take sixteen seventeen hours every semester. A couple of them didn't transfer, but it was still worth it.
Gotcha and got it well, you know, Like what I really appreciate though, is the fact that like you were willing to make this serious change to your life, like once you realize that things weren't painting out. Because I believe that that most college students in your position, I think they would have just stuck around and wrote it out while racking up that debt. I feel like that's what I would have done, Like because at that point in your life, you're surrounded by friends. You see sort
of the trajectory of everyone. And for me, like, at one point, I thought about changing majors, and I knew that that was going to mean an additional year or two, and I thought, no way, Like, I can't, I can't do that. A I didn't want to. I didn't have the money on hand because I was running out of scholarship. But be all, my friends were graduating, and so for me, there was almost like this social pressure. And that's actually kind of surprising, I guess, because you are a very
social dude. But even still you're able to combat that. You were able to fight those pressures. Well, a lot of my friends actually were seniors that year when I was graduating, so they were.
Leaving, and I was like, I guess it's I mean, why not, because yeah, when your friend base is leaving. You're right, that time kind of helps make that decision a little bit easier, got it. But but I will say, yeah, I think that you're Yeah, you can't credit that fully. You're able to piggyback off of the fact.
That you had a bunch of friends who are graduating. Yep, You're like, they're graduating, Time for me to get out of here. It's going to peace out as well. Yeah, for sure, And that was definitely that was definitely part of it and made that decision easier. Yes, I think that's one of the things that, like you said, a lot of high school students all have young adults going into college first couple of years, they're oblivious to the student loan deb that they might be taking it on.
I think they're becoming less oblivious. I think it's become such a problem that they can't avoid knowing what's happening to them. But for a long time, a lot of people in just a little bit younger than we are, have been kind of fed the belief that a college education at whatever cost is going to be worth it. And now people are being forced to challenge that assumption a little bit more. And I think it's a good thing, because it's not that we think college is a bad thing.
Like I would go over and do it again for myself. Yeah, But at the same time, you have to weigh the risk in the reward and you have to say, do it in a responsible manner because if you don't, it's not a good decision. And you want to make sure that whatever education you're receiving is going to be put to good use in that the debt, the potential debtload that you're taking on, that you minimize it, and that it propels you.
To hire earnings.
Nice. Yeah, and you also share that you're saving money by living at home. I think that is such an underrated way to do college, right because, like you said, those first two years undergrads are oblivious. I mean literally my first two years I changed schools, like within the college both. I mean I did it literally. I think every single year I was in college, I was in a different school because I thought, oh, first I'm gonna be a science major. Oh no, that I don't like chemistry.
That's not working out, and so now I'm gonna be in the business school. I'm in terry. And then you bounce around and I mean this first two years. I you know, granted some of those credits did count, but you have no idea what you're doing.
That's what those first two years are for those some of that trial and error, absolutely, but figuring out what you're interesting.
What better way to experience some of that trial and error than to you'd be paying very little money by going to a local community college. Yes, we are huge proponents of folks doing that. So, yeah, you graduated, you kind of you know, started to grow up a little bit, move on with your life before we started our own little company here, you know, with this podcast, like I pictured you as what i'd call like a company man,
not that you had that's good. Well, you didn't have to wear like a suit or anything, right, But.
That's actually part of the reason and a terrible reason. But why I chose to go work in radio was because you could wear jeans and flip flops, and literally that was half of my reasons. Really, you don't have to dress up to do that.
I feel, Yeah, Well, a lifestyle and what it feels like to go work for a company that have that has a lot of weight when it comes to the decisions. I mean literally, when I was looking to apply to different advertising agencies like that was also something I kept in mind as well, because actually I can't remember if mad Men was out at that point, but even still the modern advertising agency, it was still kind of like a cooler place to work. They didn't drink an old
fashion on the job. I'm out of here, than like an accounting firm or something like that. But the ability to work in a creative department and just wear jeans and a hoodie was definitely something that was appealing to me. And so it's not fancy in that way, but your job specifically, like you had nice company benefits like a four to one K. I just joked earlier about how that's not something I ever had access to, but you did. You had a match. I've never had anything like that
up until very recently here with our company. So my question for you, did you start investing? Did you start maxing out that four one k right away? Like? How did you know that that was a smart move? To Mick, how did you learn what to do? Sure?
Yet, No, I did not start maxing out Okay, way I was, I was, really I knew.
Heard it folks. When Joel first got his first job he was not taking advantage of the company mesas.
No, well, no, I was getting the match. Okay, that was the one thing I knew not to screw up on. There you go, but only because literally the job that my first job that I got, or not my first job, but the second job that I got that I was at for fourteen fifteen years, was we talked a lot about personal finance. That was that we worked on a consumer advice radio show, and so I knew enough to not miss out on the company match, but I had
still not yet. My ears had not been perked up to the ideas of financial independence and the idea of like, well, okay, yeah, I'm gonna get if I saved ten percent for forty five years of my life, then I'll be able to retire. That was still kind of the way I was thinking at that point in life.
Kind of had that old school mindset.
Yeah, well, I was saying, still plus my salary was minus at the time, so maxing and out was I wouldn't have been.
Able to live. It wasn't an option, No, it was it was.
Like, not even closer an option. So getting the match was enough of a sacrifice for me to build a make but later on, as like my I got more in tune with what money can do if it's invested early enough, I did begin to pour more and more into my four one K, max out my roth Hera, then eventually max out my four one K. And so it's one of those things where I was like, yes, okay, but I wish somebody had challenged me to do that sooner, had said, you know what, the match is great, but
you can do more. And so I think that's why I get excited, especially when we hear from younger how money listeners and then like I'm doing it already, and I'm like, man, if only you have Yeah, twenty three, twenty four, I had that same information, that same challenge, that same knowledge that you have, like I, you know, and and and part of it really is not just
I can't blame it on a lack of knowledge. It really was just a lack of intentionality and and so yeah, the fact that they have all those things working together, I'm super impressed.
Well, I mean, I will say just reaching financial independence, it had a branding problem basically a right, and in the past ten years it really has come a long way as being you know as folk seeing retirement as something that you do once you hit fifteen nine and a half or sixty five years old, where you sit on the you know, the rocker on the front porch, you got the gold watch, you're sitting there, you no
longer have to work. That has always been the view typically of retirement, of reaching a point of financial freedom. But over the past ten years we have seen a dramatic shift and what it means to be financially independent. It doesn't mean waiting until you're really old to completely pull the plug on working. It can mean gradually, over time, making that transition, taking on different jobs that you want, just the ability to have options.
Stocking away enough so you can quit your day job and go do your own thing and start your own business. I mean that. Yeah, I think you're right. I think the nuance in this space has grown dramatically, and so many great voices have come up to say like, no, you can go this path, or you can go this path, and so it's opened up people's eyes to say, oh, wait, there are a lot of different directions I can go in. It's not just the one path that has kind of
been the traditional Yeah, exactly, Yeah, the traditional path exactly. Okay, So real quick, once you got that first decent paying job, what were you splurging on before Kraft Beer?
Right? So on every interview we bring guests on and we ask them what their craft beer equivalent is. What was your craft beer equivalent before Craft?
I think it was probably baseball games. I was going to Braves games, okay, Yeah, And it's one of those things where again I didn't I didn't have much money, especially in those those early working gears, and I was able to score Brave tickets for super cheap because they played downtown. Almost nobody went to the games. I could ride my bike over there, yeah, and I would go two games and get out of there for five bucks
or ten bucks if I bought some food. I mean, there was just all these ways to go to Braves games for super cheap that don't exist now. And so I feel like it's like it. But you weren't from an old time.
Right right, So so you weren't spending money on it?
Was there something I was going consistently?
All right? So?
And so I would go to all purchase done consistently. Yeah, ads up. I would go twenty twenty five games a year, wow. And those were Those were good old days. Now I make it to one, maybe two. I didn't make it to the World Series, of course, like I told.
Everybody, that's right, and you didn't. I guess we haven't talked about this yet. On the show you Got, You Got, You scored yourself some of that World Series swag.
I got a shirt for merch for Christmas, Yes, but yeah, that was that was kind of what I viewed as my sports for the time. I was like, I'm all, I'm gonna go to as many Braids games as I want.
You're the Brais game guy. Yep, yeah, totally. Okay, So you've kind of alluded to this. Many folks know Clark Howard. You know, he was a nationally syndicated consumer advocate radio host, and like you said, he talks a lot about personal finance. And so I'm assuming you learned a ton while working on a show. There's a lot of different concepts, a lot of different principles that I'm sure you heard reiterated
on the show constantly. But so my question for you, though, is like, do you have any specific lessons that you learned, like not necessarily from the show, but just from being around Clark Howard himself that you did different lessons that you picked up from observing him in real life.
Yeah, yeah, for sure. And by the way, the person I was talking about earlier on the Boss who influenced me was not Clark. Oh really, it was actually the program director Pete Spriggs, who was Okay, it still is a phenomenal human being. But there you go. I could have said many of the same things at Clark truly, and yes, shout out to Pete. Yeah, Pete's awesome. Missed that guy. But he Clark is such a generous guy and in every sense of the word, and he's like
this positive influence. I would say on everybody that he that he meets, like random people at Costco, the way he treats them, or just people somebody on the street, somebody has a flat tire, like he's the kind of guy who stops to help change it, Like it's awesome.
That's rare, especially in today's Oh yeah, and so yeah, I think what I learned from Clark was the way you treat everybody matters and down to the person who's checking out your groceries at the grocery store, or the waitress or waiter when you're ordering food, and so I don't know, I think that goes a long way. He was just this like incredible cocktail of like optimism, kindness, and humility, and it just kind of it's infectious. It makes you want to live in the same way. And
he's definitely that kind of guy. He's one impressive dude.
Well, especially considering I mean, we had him on the show here last year. We can link to that episode in our show notes, but we talked about how he sold his first business when he was very young, Right, he was financially independent at a very young age, and so you could easily see him going in a direction that wouldn't lend itself to being charitable not only with your money, but also how you treat other people.
Yeah.
So, yeah, so I'll not We're gonna take a quicker gret. But after that, speaking of financial independence, we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna talk about real estates. We'll get to all of that right after this break. All right, we're back from the break. We're gonna wrap this thing up here before long. Yeah, get kicked me out of here. I got somewhere to be. I got somebody else to talk to you. Yeah, no, literally nobody else to talk to today, just some episodes
to edit and listen to. But let's talk about real estate specifically, because I honestly can't remember how it is that you got interested in investing in real estate. I know my story, we talked about this last week. I remember how I had, you know, the seeds of real estate planted, but I don't know how that came about for you. So can you share, you know, how it is that you that you first saw the light when it came to real estate.
Okay, so this is gonna probably sound a little lame, but my my mom super big into HGTV, Like she is probably Joanna Gaines's biggest fan.
She is, and she has she her and your dad. They didn't they go to Texas.
They went to Waco.
They specifically stayed in a property that she had renovated. Was that, like, was it in an Airbnb?
Yes?
It was? Okay, Yes, I've got that thing Rakes in the cast.
Yeah, and she's not like, she's not like stalker level, But if she met her in person, I think she might think she'd be that.
She definitely recognized her on the street.
Yes, right, but she's she'd probably I don't know, she probably played cool. She probably would, but for just start sweating, gotta play it cool. And but for me, I would say, HGTV not my favorite channel. But there was this one that would come on and.
Flip or flop or something. No.
It was called uh income Property okay, and it was this host, Scott McGillivray.
I don't remember that one, okay.
So this guy used to help people with their property turn it into like he would. He would help them renovate it and turn it into a cash a property that would cash flow even more. And sometimes he would turn a single family home into a duplex, or he would turn a duplex into a nicer duplex, or they were all these different ways. He would suggest to make over your house in order to make it more a cash flow positive and and and help it to make
more money and be more valuable like it. And I remember watching that show and I was like, Okay, so it's not just like paint on walls and QT and something up like he's he's got this plan. And he would always see the numbers at the end and people would be raking in more rent than he even assumed at the beginning, so that he'd be like, all right, if you do this into this duplex, you get twelve hundred on each side, and at the end of the day,
they're getting fourteen hundred on each side. And I was like, what how are they They're They're killing it. And I think that sparked the seed of like, wow, okay, you can create something beautiful for somebody to live in and you can make money at the same time. And there were certainly other touch points along the way. I mean, I think getting into the Bigger Pockets podcast for a while, which is still a great one if you want to begin investing in real estate.
It's really yep.
Like yeah, definitely one of the best ones in this top that I would say, though, kind of sparked at the beginning where I was like, oh, okay, my mind started.
Scott was that his names, yeah, Scott g or J. I don't know. So he was the one that was like switching out, swapping out the garage door before it was cool, but before all the other publications had written about the fact that this one thing will increase the curb appeal right, allow your property to return more.
Yeah, he was super smart He always did a good job with those rehnos, and he really offered a lot of good advice, and then he would do a lot of the work because he was also a contractor. And they were always just fun episodes. I don't think that shows on anymore, but it was one of those where if you went back to the backlogs and watch them, you learn a lot.
Got it? And so yes, I mean, so you've been investing in real estate for a while now. At this point, I feel like you have a lot on your plate. You've got several properties you yourself managed. You don't pay for management, you don't. You know, that's for the birds. You're getting all that money, you're keeping those expenses at a minimum. But you're also you're wrapping up renovating your home. You've got this, you know the podcast. It's a full
time job. You've got three kids. Do you foresee yourself continuing to buy additional properties? Where's your head at as far as your investment property portfolio moving forward?
Yeah? I mean I think I do see myself buying more properties, but I also see myself going towards maybe easier ways to use the assets that I have or the money that I'm making to make investments because Yeah, like we've talked about on the show, we love investment properties,
and they have been great for us. They've been great for me and my family to grow a net worth, to have monthly cash flow, and I love that we they're right around the corner from us, and many of which we have lived in before, and so there's like this cool element to investing where you live and I
love that. I love that part of it, and I could see myself potentially buying more properties, but like you said, like yeah, plates kind of kind of fold these these days, and if we want to grow this business, then growing the rental property business kind of takes a back seat. It's on the back burner. And so I think if I did want to do that, if I did want to go hard in that direction, I would have to find some help when it comes on the property management side.
And I was going to actually suggest that because I just kind of knocked it, but like that's the path that you go. I mean, you get to a certain point and there's.
A certain scale at which you can't handle it all yourself exactly, and it does feel like it makes a little bit more sense to have a manager, a management company, or an individual.
Who knows you how it is that you like things to be maintained, the different kind of vendors who you'd like to choose, and if you've got somebody on your side who's got your back like that, I could see that being incredibly valuable. Yeah, when it comes to freeing up your time.
So yeah, maybe, but I still I love. There's something I love about physical real estate and I think it's just it's a fun investment in a lot of ways. It also it has there's so many perks. We've talked about them way too much on the show, and you know, there's older episodes you can go to dig into why we love it so much. But there's also just this, yeah,
this this tangible element that I like about it. Whereas numbers on a screen have a different effect, don't do it for you as much, not the same right, like a four to one K balance or I like, it's exciting to see those things grow, but I think it's more exciting for me to buy a property that I'm like, oh, this is undervalued and oh I can I can like this. That's Scott McGillvray sort of mindset where it's like, how can I maximize the returns on this piece of land
here with this little house on it. Yeah, and I just love old houses too. Yeah. I love those nineteen twenties and thirties houses and it's kind of what they've got that character. Yeah. So I'm like, I always get excited to go over and take a look at a house because they're they're pretty, they're cool. It's it's different than sticking your six grand in a roth and not that that's not that's a bad ideas.
So, yeah, you need to do that. Yeah, don't hear Joel incorrectly, Right, Definitely do that. Make that a priority, I would say before you start dabbling into real estate or not.
Everybody feels the same way I do about houses or about really state and a lot of people think of it as a pain or this thing to maintain, and I'm like, well, no, I think it is this thing that you can make better, make prettier and and invite people to live in and improve the community. Yeah, and so part of it maybe is a mindset or maybe just a predisposition. I don't know.
Yeah, So you're talking about the difference between tangible assets and intangible so it sounds like you're less of an NFT guy more of a master works kind of guy.
Even that, Like, I'm like, if I don't get to put it in my house, I would rather if I'm going to buy a piece of art, which.
I do, buy it locally.
I love art. Yeah, I buy a little art. I put it in my house. For some reason that art like quintuples in value cool, but I don't care really.
Yeah. It also doesn't surprise me that you're into real estate because I feel like, like, do you find yourself attracted to the aspect that you get to meet new people? So, you know, it depends on how busy your life is. But when you show a property, it can either be the most in my mind, in my experience, it can either be the most fun thing ever or it can
be the most stressful thing. Because if your calendar is pretty open, maybe the previous tennant's got out of there a little bit sooner, you've already gotten the place cleaned.
It's good to go.
You feel good showing it right, like you've got time on your side. You've got folks lined up and you're able to talk to them. You kind of get to hear their story a little bit. But then other times, I don't know if you're you know, if it's a very narrow window and you've got to show it to twenty people thirty people just in a single week, and it's a good point. Yea, that can be stressful. But I'm thinking about your first job. They're at the ekerds
or whatever, the photo development, yeah, drug store. There's an element of interacting with people that I could see you kind of getting into just kind of being there in person, getting to hear.
Their story exactly. I think that's part of what I like about real estate too, is, Yeah, even when you have to get contractors in there or something, if you get people you trust, Like I love meeting my dude Edwin at the house and you talking like he's a great guy. And so every time they could do yeah, it's like I got to put a you know, a new math tub in a place or something like that, Like I get to get to say hi to him.
And so your most recent work that you did at a rental some some fresh yeah new bathtub, new.
New tile exactly. And so those are the kind of things where I think that relational aspect that bouncing around town and getting out of the house like that stuff. Kind of it's a lot of fun in my book.
Yeah, yeah, so kind of. On that note, we talk a decent bit here on the show about financial independence. We just you know, we just talked about it here a little bit. We talk about financial freedom. We've shared how you and I how we've essentially reached coast fire. And so what advice would you give to anyone who is really pursuing financial independence they're really getting after it. Do you have any specific thoughts to share with folks?
I guess when you when you phrase it that way, probably my initial reaction is to make sure you're doing it in a sustainable way. Was that a biased question the way I asked? No, No, No, I just think I think like for the.
Idiots out there who all they care about is money and they're just trying to hit their number.
If somebody is already overdoing it, then you probably need to cool your jets. Yeah, a little bit. And overdoing it is a specific thing, right, but there are there are a lot of ways to accomplish the goals that you want without burning out in the midst of accomplishing
those goals. And I think there is there's something to be said for slowing down and doing it in a methodical way, because if your savings rate is seventy percent, well what if it was fifty five percent, and you've got to enjoy your life life a little bit more, and maybe you weren't working your fingers to the bone, and maybe you got to spend more time with people that you loved and you got to take an extra
week off. I mean, those are the kind of things where it's all go back to what I said about sneakers. It's all a trade off, and you can buy those sneakers. Now. I'm not suggesting that you should. I'm just saying like, there are measured trade offs that are worth making in even in the here and now. And that's exactly what we try to bring to the show every week, right is saying like we drink a fancy beer because it adds a lot to our life and it costs more
money than most people are willing to pay. But we have just a few areas of our lives where we do that. And I think there are some people who, in the dogged pursuit of financial independence, have are not letting themselves enjoy almost anything. And I think that's a tough position to be in. I would say, don't do stuff that you hate longer than you need to just
for money. But at the same time, we are also pro financial independence, we're pro that pursuit, and so it is this balance that you have to strike, and I think to strike that balance, yeah, the loudest voices are the extremes, and they're the ones telling you, like, go all the way, go all out, and you can do
this in five years or less. And then there are the other people who are like, go to the slow, methodical route and if you just invest, you know, seven eight percent a year, you'll be able to retire when
you're forty five. And we're saying, and it's not a super sexy message, but that there is an awesome place in the in between where you can live the way you want to in a lot of ways now while paying a lot of attention to your money and how you invest, so that you can set yourself up for success in a few years from now, and then for a lot of success you know, a decade or two from now.
Yeah, absolutely, man, you know. So, I think we've got a lot of listeners who are all across the spectrum when it comes to where they are in their pursuit of financial independence and their pursuit of being really smart
with their money. But I think there's a sort of a real danger or a real temptation to look at what the world is feeding you and telling you that you should do, which is oftentimes the pursuit of money, success power, the different things achievement right generally speaking, whether it be the boss at work who is a great boss and who is encouraging you, like we talked about earlier,
it's like, oh, you're such a great writer. And while that may have initially just been kind of a pad on the back or just them truly calling out a talent that they see that can easily find its way being channeled into working more and neglecting some of the other important things in life. Like I feel like money, just generally speaking, is it's almost like this, like it's the sirens, you know, like Odysseus, he's tying himself to the mast and the sirens the call of that money.
It will always be there. And I believe that there are fewer folks saying be careful of that, as opposed to the voices the books, the podcasts that are out there, you're telling yes, who are telling folks you need to do just.
Go hard after it.
And then once you achieve that, you're you're gonna have options, you're gonna have success, you're gonna have happiness. But we believe here that you've got to strike that balance. And I think it's going to be easier for you to maintain that balance as you climb the ladder of success, rather than having it be completely lopsided. You climb the ladder and then expect to be able to kind of find that balancing act while you're way up there in the ladder. I think it's a lot easier to find
the balance when you're closer to the ground. But I like what you said. I mean it truly is. It's difficult because it depends on the individual. It depends where they are in their life exactly, depends what they have going on, their interests, all of that.
When you and I were twenty four to twenty five, we were willing to make more sacrifices with our time in order to make more money so that we could invest it to make progress for our futures. And now you know, a lot of the hard work has been done and it's not that there isn't a lot of hard work, fun work left to do, but it is one of those things where, yeah, so much of it does depend on your life stage. Do you have kids,
like we talked to you know, I don't know. Just what you just said made me think of multiple episodes we've done, multiple interviews that we've done one with Wes Moss about happiness and how you can't just turn the dial on and off and basically like, yeah, the things that you're pursuing in the here and now are the hobbies. The relationships are crucial and you can't cut those off and then expect when you hit retirement where all my
friends at. And then I'm thinking about carl our interview with mister fifteen hundred and how he's talking about how you shouldn't do live in flips when you have kids, and maybe some people are willing to do that, but like it is, there's like a time and a place for everything, and it's not one size fits all, that's.
For sure, exactly. Well, speaking of core pursuits, as west Moss likes to call them, different hobbies, let's get.
To our beer.
This episode, which is called Woodland Pursuit and I completely picked up this beer for us here on the show, specifically for you, because it's got a disc golf goal. Is that what you call them goals? Like the metal basket, the hole, I guess, the holes. Yeah, it's golf, but it's that it's got a little little red putter sitting in there, and it's it's in the woods. It's called Woodland Pursuit, which also Woodland happens to be the name of the street that you live on. True our streets
intersect Woodland. You've got Delaware. This is a juicy New England ipa by one of our favorite breweries, Humble Forger.
What your thoughts.
On this one?
And when I first saw these beer, I was like, oh my gosh, this is like my spirit animal beer really is because yeah, the disc golf, the Woodland, which is the name of my street, perfect a street that I love, And yeah, this was this was awesome beer, Matt. This is delicious. And you know it's funny because for an ipa, it had a lot of like fruit flavor, but not not generic fruit, like specifically like peach and apricot. Right, yes, yeah, absolutely,
And I would say I think it's these. This brewery does a lot of great fruited beers, but there is no fruit in this beer. It's all the hops, all hops.
I'm like, I literally am going to do a deep dive on this after we hit stop on this episode, because I almost can't believe that there's not actually fruit in here. But on the label it only has hops listed out. It's it's a New Zealand.
Yeah, yeah, there are New Zealand hops. I guess I wonder if the New Zealand hops have like special flavor varieties that we can't get here.
The to go to New Zealand and just like eat the hops right off the vine and it's like you're eating an apricat or I.
Want to, although I don't think they'll they'll let us in, but yeah, but yeah four, this beer is so stick good, so delicious, so satisfying, and I feel like, yeah, this is now on my top favorites list.
It's the perfect balance between sweet and the bitterness that you get from the hops. There's so much juice, but it doesn't get too sweet, Like as soon as you taste it, you think, oh, this is going to be too sweet, but then it like it kind of like drops off and it switches to kind of like that hoppy bitterness, and so they've somehow struck the perfect balance. This is one of the best, certainly the best beer
we've had all year. We'll shoot, yeah, we just had trillium actually, so maybe we've had some awesome beers.
It's right up there with them.
So yeah, if you happen to see this one in your local bottle shop Woodland Pursuit by Humble Forger, we would highly recommend that you picked this one up. It's fantastic. But Joel, that's gonna be ye buddy. For this episode. Listeners can find our show notes up on our website at howtomoney dot com.
That's right, and next Wednesday we'll resume kind of more of our normal format, doing a deep dive on a specific personal finance topic.
We can only interview each other so many times.
I don't know we could do to repeat. We did it twice Groundhog Day. Stome will be it all right, Well, that's gonna do it, Matt. Until next time. Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,