Joel's $ Origin Story #464

turn in the hot seat. Does everything feel backwards because I kind of announced the actual title of this episode. You brought us back from the break with the music left his right and up is down exactly, which makes me think of those bicycles were like they're engineered so that if you steer left, it actually goes right. Have you seen these it's mind cluster where like you literally can't write it and it takes I don't know, like

like tons of practice. I think it would take a long time to retrain your brain exactly, because what you've been doing something for so long, it's it feels really awkward. Sometimes just a small thing like who introduces the podcast episode. Yes, but before we get to my money story, and yeah, there's a lot I think we're gonna cover. I don't know. I mean, it's really it's up to you, so we'll see where it goes. But I wanted to mention one thing quickly that one of my friends, his name is Brennan.

He goes by the Moniker budget dog, Instagram and Twitter. Yeah. Literally, I asked him how how he got that name, and he was like sitting there with his dog while he came up with it. So it just like really was like budgets exactly. So he's a he's a good dude and he's doing a lot of great work with a d A W G. Sadly, no, he did not, you know, that's how it goes. But he mentioned the other day on Twitter and I've not heard of this company before, a company to help you roll over your old four

oh one k and it's called Capitalize. And I looked into this because I was like, all right, Branda knows what he's talking about. What is this thing? And it is this cool? It's actually Capitalized was named one of times top and mentions one and it is this site where you get to go roll over your four oh one K for free into an IRA. And there are a whole lot of reasons to do this, Like we could get into all the nuance. We're not going to because that's not what this episode is about, but we'll

link to it in the show notes. And it's just one of those cools. Yeah, if you have an old retirement accounts sitting somewhere else and you want to move it to a place with lower fees and better fund options, a place I Capitalized is gonna help you do that. They're gonna handle the paperwork, which is like, for me, the most annoying part usually, And so yeah, it just it seems like this cool new service, and I wanted to mention it. Will will again put a link to

the show notes. And yeah, if you if you're one of those people who's like dreading doing the annoying intricacies of first I'll find it's something as dorky as you know, rolling an account over from a four one K into a new I RA technical, yes, yeah, but ultimately not that hard. But Capitalized makes it even even. Also first rule problems, right, like are you over here Joe complaining that you've got too many four own ks and previous

employers that you have to keep up with. Oh what a hard life that is from somebody who's never had a four week Right, But we did say simplification is a huge part of making personal finances better for people. And if this helps you simplify things, combine everything into accounts with fewer companies and and and also reduce you can get it that drag of fees at the same time,

Like it's well your time. If you're with a provider who, yeah, does not give you the best investing options, you know, I will say if you are able to maintain those accounts and if the investing options are equivalent or similar across the board, there's there's no magic to combining all your accounts into a single giant account. Right, You're gonna

earn the same types of returns. Uh, If you've got a hundred thousand dollars that's spread across three accounts, the same returns that you'd see if all of that money was just in a singular account. But like you said, it's more of like a mental thing. And if that helps you as an individual, then go for it. Yeah, as long as they're in the same fun choices right, uh for sure, So yeah, we'll link to it in the show notes. But Matt Let's mentioned the beer that

we're having on this episode. We're drinking a beer called Woodland Pursuit. It's a New England I p a from the folks at Humble Forager and I'm looking forward to drinking this one while we share my money origin story tonight. Right, and I picked this one out especially for you, and we'll talk about why. I guess at the end of the episode. Sounds good. Well, like last Wednesday's episode, it is, Uh, it's time for your listeners to really get to know

us on a deeper level. Last week, yeah, you got to hear my money story and the experiences that impacted how it is that I view money. And now it's Joel's turn, pailing from the Pacific Northwest, weighing in a like a h eighty pounds maybe okay any nine? Also the very you're the tallest half Norwegian, but yeah, you were raised here in the South. My best friend, Joel,

ours guard. He uh might might have been the cheapest guy I've ever met, which is why I think we really hit it off when we first met around a decade ago. I think it also helps a ton our wives hit off as well. But I had never met anyone cheaper than me, and that's saying a lot. And it's no wonder that we were destined to start a personal finance podcast together. There truly is so much that already know about you. But like any good story, you

start at the beginning. And I realized that I don't know what your first money memory is, and so, yeah, do you have a clear moment when you grasped the concept of money? Also, did Joys prefer the Kirkland signature pizza even as a toddler or there was that a more of an acquired taste. Yeah, now that was later

in life. Really, that was more more recent occurrence. Uh. And and I will say, actually I talked about this recently on Twitter with somebody how Little Caesar's raised the prices of their pizza that inflation robbers meeting the road. But like, it's too short to really eat cheap pizza too frequently, so I usually spring forth the nicer stuff.

But yeah, I guess when it comes to first money memories, probably first money memory is my parents had like this, uh, this cardboard cut out with like little dimes and nickels and pennies and dollars. Did you ever have one of those where it's like it's like a little learning way to learn about money. And so I remember seeing that, and it was this tangible thing where I got to group them and do additional subtraction and kind of get

to figure out how money works. Okay, I do remember doing that in elementary school, like the same cardboard, like really to learn time and stuff. So your parents like stole it from the elemarry exactly. Actually you preat your older sister probably ganked it and you got to take a look at it. She was a bad one, you know. I learned a lot from that. So yeah, I think that was probably the most early memories I had is kind of playing with those physical cardboard cut out of money.

But but then I think the kids had g I Joe's, and Joe had dollar bills on the shelf all lined up. Yeah, not necessarily know. I was not like roomed to be some sort of personal finance nerd. But I think the the other thing that sticks out in my mind when I'm thinking about the earliest memories I have of like actual money was when my parents I had to have conversations about in particular, the shoes that I wanted to buy.

I was like super into the fancy basketball shoes of the day, the Scotty Pippens, the Michael Jordan's, all the all the good stuff that Charles Barkley's. They all had great shoes. Man, speaking of investments, if only you had gotten a couple of pairs of those that never worn them in the box, you, I mean, you'd be a multi millionaire thousands at least, right, Yeah, So that's a

good point. Uh, But yeah, having there was always a conversation between my parents and I because they said, listen, here's a limit on what we're willing to spend four shoes for you. If you want, we can get you these like rebox and you're gonna and you can wear those. But if you want those nicer shoes, you you're gonna have to bring some of your own birthday or or Christmas money to the table in order to make it happen.

And that was the first time I think I realized trade offs and how important tradeoffs are when we're talking about personal finances. And sometimes occasionally I did opt for the fancy shoes. I put my money where my mouth was and I was like, this is worth it. And I still remember that pair of Scotty Pippins and they were worth it. Uh it felt so good on your feet, they were so good. But most of the time I opted to say I'm gonna get to get the free

shoes that mom and dad are gonna buy me. But that's one of those, I think first memories I had where it was like I have a decision and I have money that I can choose whether or not this is worth it or not to me. Yeah. Well, I mean I love what your parents did there as well, because essentially what they're doing is matching you right like

they're kind of meeting meaning you. I don't know exactly how much they're willing to, you know, bring to the table, but the ability for them to kind of incentivize you to alter your spending, your behavior a little bit, because you could have taken out money and been like, yeah, I really want those shoes, and then you go blow the rest of the money on your say a dreamcast or whatever. I remember you buying from the yard sailor

or something. But yeah, because I love when parents are able to mimic the different types of patterns and behaviors that we're going to encounter in real life. And so this, I mean, I love that your parents did that, and I look forward to being able to do that with you know, with my kids. I'm sure you you're looking forward to doing the same as our as our kids

get older, So kind of moving along. You know. One of the things that I think is really impressive about you is the number of different, like different jobs that I've heard you had while you're in high school. Like I only worked at the local golf course, but you had a quite varied work history. So yeah, tell us about that in specifically, did you have a favorite job

that you held? Okay, so yeah, I had a bunch of different jobs growing up, and and some of them before the age where you're legally allowed to work just stuff in the neighborhood, like mowing lawns, right, And that was like literally my first introduction to making my own money,

and that was empowering. And my dad was just a big help in helping me get that business off the ground, Like had just a few yards in the neighborhood, and he was always willing to help me on a Saturday, which is huge, Like he wasn't just like, alright, go pound the pavements on. He was like, I know, he was dead tired from working all week, and he still came with me to mo those lawns, which awesome. I yeah,

major props to my pops. But uh yeah. Then, at at fourteen, the earliest age you could start working in the state of Georgia, I started working at Chick fil A, and right across the street from my high school was the easiest place to get to, so I could walk straight across and work for three hours before I would go home for the evening. And I still remember my starting wage five dollars and fifteen cents an hour, which was the bare minimum you were allowed to get paid,

the far cry from what they're paying today. But I think my favorite job overall in those years between, like you know, growing up and then and then getting to to college was working at the Eckerd Photo Lab. Okay, that was just like a fun job where I was like getting to interact with people who had just got a vacation and they turned in their photos. And do people even still do that anymore? I don't think so,

there's not like a photo person, well they do. I mean they've got the printers, but you just sent in. They don't bring in the roles of film exactly. They sent it in from their phone. But me, I was like manning the machine and changing changing tones. I got like an old school version of photoshop. And then I would get to talk to people about the photos I had seen, because because you've seen it and you kind of know who's about to walk into exactly because you've

been staring at pictures of them. Yeah, I'm like, hey, Rome looked like it was fun. Huh, how about it? Like, dude, stop being a creed? So that was a fun trying not to be the Robin Williams from One Hour Photos. But um, I mean, so you just enjoyed that. That was just a I mean it sounds like it was fun from a social standpoint, and knowing you obviously that doesn't surprise me at all. Yeah, just get the way I got to interact with people was probably the most

fun part of that. Did you did you ever have like a really amazing boss or manager? Um? Who, I don't know. I feel that in the past when I look back to some of the different folks who influenced me, they were always really good teachers. Uh, And so for me, for whatever reason, that's something that would stand out to me is the ability to not just do the job and get some get some stuff done, but the ability

to grow as an individual and to learn. I'm curious if you had some different jobs where you had an individual that stood out to you. I feel like I've always been lucky to work for awesome people for the most part. Like there are a couple of bosses I can point back to and be like, not my favorite, but but for the most manager you know, they were.

They were great, honestly, And it's one of those situations where when you're fourteen fifteen and you're completely immature, you need someone who's going to give you like a whole lot of grace as they're kind of helping you grow been to an adult. And that was just a great learning experience for me having a job early on. But but yeah, I think the managers there were super helpful

and it was a great experience. I don't know, probably my favorite boss was was at the radio station I worked at for like fourteen fifteen years, and just because he was such an encourager and he was such a believer in your talent, and abilities, and he was always encouraging not not just me, everybody in in the building

about what they could do. And I remember reading something actually from a friend recently who she she is a writer and she writes all the time, and she points back to pointing back recently to this high school teacher who told her you're a great writer and like you can do this, and that's still is in her mind,

motivating her to write to this day. And I think interesting, I look back to some of those conversations when I was working at the radio station and my boss saying like, you got this, you got talent, and like you need to keep working at this, but like I like what you're doing, and that goes a long way in helping

foster someone's career. And if you can be that person, I think to tell somebody that that they're on the right path, or that you like what they're doing, you never know how far those words of encouragement are gonna go. That's funny. Yet, as you were saying that about your friend who was a writer, it made me think back to when I was in college. One of my professor

what I was taking advertising classes. I remember her specifically talking about photography because essentially we had to come up with our own little campaign, and she was like, hey, this this is a pretty great concept. You know, the headline, like the copy is great, but these images are awesome. Uh,

She's like, have you ever thought about photography? And thinking back, I realized that maybe that may have been what kind of pointed me in the direction of focusing more on photography as I got into graphic design and all always had a more photographic lean to it, and then obviously got into photography as well. And we are actually going to talk more about, you know, your history there at

the radio station. I think I'm gonna have a question maybe about the same boss who you mentioned perhaps, But before we get to that though, like before we get to that stage of your life, you know, I think, like here on the show, you've only really just touched on the fact that, like, it wasn't all smooth sailing at home as a kid when it came to money. Uh, do you want to share know what I've heard you

describe before as perhaps your most pivotal money moment. Sure, yeah, I mean I think this is really when if there is a inflection point in my personal finance trajectory it was growing up age basically twelve or thirteen, when my parents ended up filing for bankruptcy. And at the same time after that, the our car got repossessed, and it was one of the things where we knew it was going to happen, we just didn't know when. And one day we were expecting it to happen, and it didn't happen,

didn't happen, and then it was gone one morning. And it was one of those things where I just remember as a kid, was kind of like looming over our heads. And at the same time it was money was a constant source of friction in the house. And so yeah, I think I was also at this important age where it left this indelible mark on me where it's my younger sister, she was a little bit younger than me, maybe couldn't not not quite old enough to realize exactly

what was going on. My older sister was in high school, she was like dating and working, and I was just at this like hyper impressional age where that left a major mark and I think has probably still contributed to how how I view money today and just how maybe how intentional I am with it. Uh, But yeah, that was that was the point. It was that it was that age and it was those things happening in my family's life that made me say, like, you know what,

I want to be good with money. You know, you know what, I want to be good enough with money where I don't ever have to argue about money with my spouse. Um. And it's not that you know, Emily and I don't still have money disagreements from time to time, but it's one of those things where we don't want to have get to the point where we're not sure if we're going to have enough, and that leads to conflict or us having to do things that we don't

want to do in order just to secure more money. Um. But yeah, that's definitely the probably the most pivotal point in my life when it comes to how I think, in view and do money in personal finance. Yeah, I mean we we always are going to have disagreements oftentimes with our partners when it comes to money, but you just don't necessarily when all of your conversations to be negative. Right like, like hopefully you all are in a position where you can sit down and when you talk about money,

it's it's a very good conversation. It's this thing that where maybe you're cracking out, you know, a craft beer or bottle of line. You're having this meeting with your partner because you are wanting to look ahead at the different goals that you share or that you're you know

that might be looming on the horizon. But you know, I, yeah, I think it's hard to fully understand and you know, the impact of an event like that, like as we're growing up, even you know, when decades have passed and we have the benefit of hindsight, do you ever wonder, like, what would have happened if that repo had had never happened? Do you think that maybe instead you would have been kind of like spend thrift Joel, Like there would have

been this alter ego honestly bizarro Joel probably think so. Yeah, I think I do think so. I mean, I don't really think about it like that very often, but I do think that left such a mark that I am a different person because of It'd be a sneaker head, and I don't think, yeah, maybe maybe I would be one of those guys spending all his money on fancy sneakers, spend more on shoes than I do yes, But I also I don't think of it as this negative experience

that I would go back and change. Even though at the time it was difficult, I feel like what it's led to has been something really good and yees. So I don't think of it as something that I want to go back in a race. But at the same time, that doesn't that doesn't mean it was easy while it was happening. Sure, it's not something that you would wish that that you're planning to happen to your family, you know, it to your kids. All right. So I feel like

we've kind of covered young Joel. We're gonna get to a slightly older Joel. We're gonna get to Joel as he entered adulthood. And I've got several other questions, including some question about college, and we actually get to that right after this break. All right, so we are back. We're doing a special deep dive episode on Joel's money

origin story. Uh, and Joel, you just shared the experience of having a family car repossessed, but ultimately that that wasn't a decision that you yourself made, right, it happened to you. You were kind of more in the passenger seat not literally. I was not the one who bought the car exactly. You. I did not do finance. It was you were more in a passive position, I guess is what I'm getting at here. Um, But while you were in college, you actively made a decision that ended

up having a lasting impact on your finances. Can you tell us about that? Sure? Yes, I mean so, while I was in college the first two years, I ended up going to like a private school in South Carolina, and I think it was the best place for me at the time for the first two years of school. But it was one of those things where I realized halfway through, wait a second, I'm taking on I'm taking

on debt to go to the school I got. Uh. Fortunately I got a lot of great scholarships, but still I was at the at two years into into college. Private school. Yeah, cost a lot of money at twelve grand and student debt. And probably a lot of people just laughed when they heard, because they're like, that is nothing that that's like basically that's like books for me exactly, And and a lot of people would feel that way, and especially right now, I get it, like the price

of education has skyrocketed. Of course, in the last what eighteen years, but it's at the same time for me, I said, why why am I year and can I accomplish the same the same goal what I want? Can I get what I want at another school where maybe it's free. And the cool thing about the state of Georgia and a lot of other states have something similar.

They have this thing called the Hope Scholarship where if you had over a three point o g p A in high school, you were able to go to college for free in state and in the in state universities. And so I transferred back and ended up getting my last two years of education for free because of that. And I was living at home and working at the same time. So it was one of those things where

I'm yeah, I'm really glad I made that choice. Not adding more student loan pain to that, to that bucket load of debt is is something I'm happy I avoided totally. And let's be honest too, like there's a good chance of you're not getting out in two more years. You probably would have been on that five year playing off

of that private school. No, it's interesting. Actually switching back was one of the things where I lost a couple of credits, and so I had i'd work even harder, but I'd already been taking like eighteen nineteen hours, and so it kind of put me back on the track to like, all right, you still got to take sixteen seventeen hours every semester. A couple of them didn't transfer, but it was still worth it, and god, well, you

know what. Like what I really appreciate, though, is the fact that, like, you were willing to make this serious change to your life, like once you realize that things weren't painting out. Because I believe that that most college students in your position, I think they would have just stuck around and and wrote it out while racking up that debt. I feel like that's what I would have done, Like, because at that point in your life, you're surrounded by friends.

You see sort of the trajectory of everyone. And for me, like, at one point, I thought about changing majors, and I knew that that was going to mean an additional year or two, and I thought, no way, Like, I can't, I can't do that. Hey, I didn't want to. I didn't have the money on hand because I was running out of scholarship. But be all my friends were graduating and so there for me, there was almost like this social pressure and that's actually kind of surprising, I guess,

because you are a very social dude. But even still you're able to combat that. You were able to fight those pressures. A lot of my friends actually were seniors that year and I was graduating, so they were leaving, and I was like, I guess, and I mean, why not, because yeah, when your friend base is leaving your right, that kind of helps make that decision a little bit easier, got it. But but I will say, yeah, I think

that you're Yeah, you can't credit that fully. You're able to piggyback off of the fact that you had a bunch of friends who are graduating, Like they're graduating time for me to get out of here. It's a piece out as well. Yeah, for sure, And that was definitely.

That was definitely part of it and made that decision easier. Yes, I think that's one of the things that, like you said, a lot of high school students all have young adults going into college first couple of years, they're oblivious to the student loan that they might be taking it on. I think they're becoming less oblivious. I think it's become such a problem that they can't avoid knowing what's happening

to them. But for a long time, a lot of people in you know, just a little bit younger than we are, have been kind of fed the belief that a college education at whatever cost is going to be worth it. And now people are being forced to challenge that assumption a little bit more. And I think it's a good thing, because it's not that we think college is a bad thing, Like I would go over and

do it again for myself. But at the same time, you have to weigh the risk and the reward, and you have to say doing a responsible manner because if you don't, it's not a good decision. And you want to make sure that whatever education you're receiving is going to be put to good use in that the debt, the potential debtload that you're taking on, that you minimize it, and that it propels you to hire earnings. Nice. Yeah, and you also share that you're saving money by living

at home. I think that is such an underrated way to do college, right, because, like you said, those first two years undergrads are oblivious. I mean literally my first two years I changed schools like within the college both. I mean I did it. Literally, I think every single year I was in college, I was in a different school because I thought, oh, first I'm gonna be a science major. Oh no, that I don't like chemistry. That's not working out. And so now I'm gonna be in

the business school. I'm in terry. Uh, And you bounce around, and I mean the first two years you know, granted some of those credits did count, but you you have no idea what you're doing. That's what those first two years afore though, some of that trial and error, absolutely, but figuring out what you're interested. What better way to uh experience some of that trial and a than to be paying very little money by going to a local

community college. Yes, we are huge proponents of folks doing that. So, yeah, you graduated, you kind of you know, started to grow up a little bit, move on with your life before we started our own little company here, you know, with this podcast, Like I pictured you as what i'd call like a company man. Um. Not that you had a good well you didn't have to wear like a suit or anything, right, but that's actually part of the reason

and a terrible reason. But why I chose to go work in radio was because you could wear jeans and flip flops, and literally that was half of my reasons. Really, you don't have to dress up to do that. I feel, Yeah, Well, a lifestyle and what it feels like to go work for a company that have that has a lot of

weight when it comes to the decisions. I mean literally, when I was looking to apply to different advertising agencies, like that was also something I kept in mind as well, because actually I can't remember if Madman was out at that point, but even still the modern advertising agency it was, it was still kind of like a cooler place still work. I can't drinking old fashioned on the job. I'm out of here, uh, than like an accounting firm or something

like that. But the ability to work in a creative department and just where jeans and a hoodie was definitely something that was appealing to me. Uh And so it's not fancy in that way, but your job specifically, like you had nice company benefits, like a four one K Like I just joked earlier about how that's not something I ever had access to, but you did. You had a match. I've never had anything like that up until very recently here with our company. So my question for you,

did you start investing? Did you start maxing out that four one k right away? Like, how did you know that that was a smart move to make? How did you learn what to do? Sure? Yet, No, I did not start maxing out that way I was. I was really I knew heard it folks, when Joel first got his first job, he was not taking advantage of the company match. No, well, no, I was getting the match. Okay, that was the one thing I knew not to screw

up on. There you go. But only because literally the job that my first job that that I got, or not my first job, but the second job that I got that I was at fourteen fifteen years was we talked a lot about personal finance that that we've worked on a consumer advice radio show, And so I knew

enough to not miss out on the company match. But I had still not yet my ears had not been perked up to the ideas of financial independence and the idea of like, well, okay, I'm gonna get if I saved ten percent for uh forty five years of my life, then I'll be able to retire. That was still kind of the way I was thinking at that point in life, could have had that old school mindset. Yeah. Plus my my salary was mini school at the time, so maxing

and out was I wouldn't have been able to live. No, it was it was like not even close to an option. So getting the match was enough of a sacrifice for

me to build and make. But later on, as like my I got more in tune with what money can do if it's invested early enough, I did begin to uh pour more and more into my fore own k, max out my wrath eye right then eventually max out my four own K. And so it's one of those things where I was like, yes, okay, but I wish somebody had challenged me to do that sooner, had said, you know what, the matches gray, but you can do more.

And so I think that's why I get excited, especially when we hear from younger having money listeners and I'm doing it already, and I'm like, man, if only you have four I had that same information, that same challenge, that same knowledge that you have like I, you know, and and and part of it really is not just I can't blame it on a lack of knowledge. It really was just a lack of intentionality and um and so. Yeah, the fact that they have all those things working together,

I'm super impressed. Well, I mean, I will say, just reaching financial independence it had a branding problem basically in the past ten years, it really has come a long way as being you know, as as foaksing retirement as something that you do when once you hit fifteen, nine and a half or sixty five years old, where you sit on the you know, the rocker on the front porch, you got the gold wash, you're sitting there, you no

longer have to work. That has always been the view typically of retirement, of reaching a point of financial freedom. But over the past ten years we have seen a dramatic shift in what it means to be financially independent. It doesn't mean waiting until you're really old to completely

pull the plug on working. It can mean gradually, over time, making that transition, taking on different jobs that you want, just the ability to have options, sucking away enough so you can quit your day job and go do your own thing and start your own business. I mean that. Yeah,

I think you're right. I think the the nuance in this space has grown dramatically, and so many great voices have come up to say like, no, you can't go this path, or you can go this path, and so it's opened up people's eyes to say, oh wait, there are a lot of different directions I can go, and it's not just the one path that has kind of been the traditional exactly. Yeah, the traditional path exactly. Okay, So real quick, once you got that first decent paying job,

what were you splurging on before craft beer? Right? So on every interview we bring guests on and we asked them what their craft beer equivalent is. What was your craft beer equivalent before craft I think it was probably baseball games. I was going to Braids games, okay, yeah, And it's one of those things where again I didn't I didn't have much money, especially in those those early working gears, and I was able to score Braves tickets

for super cheap because they played downtown. Almost nobody went to the games. I could ride my bike over there and I would go to games and get out of there for five bucks or ten bucks if I bought some food. I mean, there was just all these ways to go to Braves games for super cheap that don't exist now. And so I feel like it's like but you weren't from an old time, right, and so you weren't spending money on it was it was there something I was going consistently, all right, So and so I

would go to small purchase done consistently. Yeah, I would go games a year and those were those were good old days. Now I make it to one, maybe two. I didn't make it to the World Series, of course, like I told everybody, that's right, and you didn't. I guess we haven't talked about this yet on the show You Got, You Got, You scored yourself some of that World Series swag. I got a shirt for Christmas, yes, but yeah, that was that was kind of what I

viewed as my sports for the time. I was like, I'm all, I'm gonna go to as many Braves games as I want. You're the Braves game guy. Yep, yeah, totally. Okay, So you've kind of alluded to this. Many folks know Clark Howard. You know, he was a nationally syndicated consumer advocate radio host, and like you said, he talks a lot about personal finance. And so I'm assuming you learned a ton while working on the show. There's a lot of different concepts, a lot of different principles that I'm

sure you heard reiterated on the show constantly. But so my question for you, though, is like, do you have any specific lessons that you learned, like not necessarily from the show, but just from being around Clark Howard himself that you different lessons that you picked up from observing

him in real life. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And by the way, that the person I was talking about earlier on The Boss who influencely was not Clark, he was actually the program director Pete Spriggs, who was Okay, it still is a phenomenal human being. But there you go. I could have said many of the same things Clark truly and and yes, um shout out to Pete. Yeah

he's awesome. Miss that guy. But he Clark is such a generous guy and in every sense of the word, and and he's like this positive influence I would say on on everybody that he that he meets, like random people at Costco, the way he treats them, or just people somebody on the street, somebody has a flat tire, Like he's the kind of guy who stops to help

change it, Like that's awesome. That's rare, especially in today's and so I think what I learned from Clark was the way you treat everybody matters and down to the person who's checking at your groceries at the grocery store, or the waitress or waiter when you're ordering food. And uh so, I don't know, I think that goes a long way. He was just this like incredible cocktail of like optimism, kindness, and humility, and it just kind of, uh, it's infectious. It makes you want to live in the

same way. And he's definitely that kind of guy. He's one impressive dude, well especially considering I mean, we had him on the show here last year. Now we can link to that episode in our show notes, but we talked about how he sold his first business when he was very young. He was financially independent at a very young age. Uh, and so you could easily see him going in a direction that wouldn't lend itself to being charitable not only with your money, but also how you

treat other people. So yeah, so I'll not note we're gonna take a quick rate. But after that, speaking of financial independence, we're gonna talk a little bit more about that. We're gonna talk about real estates. We'll get to all of that right after this break. All right, we're back from the break. We're gonna wrap this thing up here before long. Yeah, get kicked me out of here. I got got somewhere to be. I got somebody else to talk to you. Uh yeah, no, literally nobody else to

talk to today. Just uh some episodes for to edit and listen to. But let's talk about real estate specifically, because I honestly can't remember how it is that you got interested in investing in real estate. I know my story, we talked about this last week. I remember how I had, you know, the seeds of real estate planted, but I don't know how that came about for you. So can you share, you know, how it is that you that

you first saw the light when it came to real estate. Okay, so is gonna probably sound a little lame, But my my mom super big into HDTV, Like she is probably Joanna Gaines's biggest fan. She is, and she has. She her and your dad. They didn't they go to Texas. They went to wake up. They specifically stayed in a property that she had renovated. Was that on? Like was it an Airbnb? Yes? Okay, yes, I've got that thing rakes in the cash and then she's not like, she's

not like Stoker level. But if she met her in person, I think she might think she'd be that. She would definitely recognized her on the street. Yes, but she's she'd probably I don't know, she probably played cool. She probably would, but for just starts sweating, gotta play it cool. And but for me, I would say, HDTV not my favorite channel. But there was this one show that would come on and flip flop or something you know. It was called Income Property and it was this host, Scott mcgillibrae. I

don't remember that one. Okay. So this guy used to help people with their property turn it into like he would. He would help them renovate it and turn it into a cash a property that would cash flow even more.

And sometimes he would turn a single family home into a duplex, or he would turn a duplex to a nicer duplex or uh, there were all these different ways he would suggest to make over your house in order to make it more a cash flow and and and and help it to make more money and be more valuable.

I like it. And I remember watching that show and I was like, okay, so this is it's not just like paint on walls and QT and something up Like he's he's got this plan and he would always see the numbers at the end and people would be raking in more rent than he even assumed at the beginning, so that he'd be like, all right, if you do this into this duplex, you get twelve on each side, and at the end of the day, they're getting fourteen hunter on each side. And I was like, what how

do they They're They're killing it. And I think that sparked the seed of like, wow, okay, you can create something beautiful for somebody to live in and you can make money at the same time. And uh. There were certainly other touch points along the way. I mean, I think getting into the Bigger Pockets podcast for a while, which is is still a great one if you want

to begin investing in real estate. It's really like, yeah, definitely one of the best ones that I would say, though, kind of sparked the beginning where I was like, Okay, my mind started turning. Was that his name, yeah, Scott g or J I don't know. So he was the one that was like switching out, swapping out the garage door before it was cool, but before all the other publications had written about the fact that this one thing will increase the curb appeal right allow your property to

return more. Yeah, he was, he was super smart. He always did a good job with those rehynaults, and he really offered a lot of good advice, and then he would do a lot of the work because he was also a contractor. And they were always just fun episodes. I don't think that shows on anymore, but it was one of those where if you went back to the backlogs and watch them, you would learn a lot. Got it? And so yes, I mean, so you've been investing in real estate for a while now. At this point, I

feel like you have a lot on your plate. You've got several properties that you yourself manage. You don't pay for management, you don't. You know, that's for the birds. You're you're getting all all that money, You're you're keeping those expenses at a minimum. But you're you're also you're wrapping up renovating your home. You've got this, you know, the podcast. It's a full time job. You've got three kids.

Do do you foresee yourself continuing to buy additional properties where's your head at as far as your investment property portfolio moving forward? Yeah, I mean I think I do see myself buying more properties, but I also see myself going towards maybe easier ways to use the assets that I have or the money that I'm making to make investments. Because yeah, like we've talked about on the show, we love investment properties and they have been great for for us.

They've been great for for me and my family to grow net worth, to have monthly cash flow, and I love that we they're right around the corner from us, and many of which we have lived in before, and so there's like this um cool element to investing where

you live and I love that. I love that part of it, and I could see myself potentially buying more properties, but like you said, like yeah, plates kind of kind of fold these in these days, and if we want to grow this business, then growing the rental property business kind of takes a back seat. It's on the back burner. And so I think if I did want to do that, if I did want to go hard in that direction, I would have to find some help when it comes

on the property management side. And I was gonna actually suggest that because I just kind of knocked it, But

like that's the path that you go. I mean, you get to a certain point and there's a certain scale at which you can't handle it all yourself exactly, And it does feel like it makes a little bit more sense to have a manager, a management company, or an individual who knows you how it does that you like things to be maintained, the different kind of vendors who you'd like to choose, and if you've got somebody on your side who's got your back like that, I can

see that being incredibly valuable when it comes to freeing up your time. So yeah, maybe, but I still I love There's something I love about physical real estate, and I think it's just it's a fun investment in a lot of ways. It also it has there's so many perks. We've talked about them way too much on the show, and you know, there's older episodes you can go to dig into why we love it so much. But there's also just this, yeah, this um, this tangible element that

I like about it. Whereas numbers on the screen have a different effect, don't do it for you as as much, not the same, right, like a four O one k balance or like it's exciting to see those things grow. But I think it's more exciting for me to buy a property that I'm like, oh, this is undervalued and oh I can I can like this that Scott mcgilla ray sort of mindset where it's like, how can I maximize the returns on this piece of land here with this little house on it? And I just love old

houses too. Yeah, I love those nineteen twenties and thirties houses and it's kind of what they've got that character. Yeah, so I'm like, I always get excited to go over and take a look at a house because they're they're pretty, they're cool. Um, It's it's different than sticking your six gin in a wrath and not that that's not that's a bad idea, it's so, yeah, you need to do that. Yeah,

don't hear Joel incorrectly. Right, Definitely do that make that a priority, I would say before you start dabbling into real estate or not. Everybody feels the same way I do about houses or about real estate, and a lot of people think of it as a pain or this thing to maintain, and I'm like, well, no, I think it is this thing that you can make better, make prettier and um and invite people to live in and prove the community. Yeah, and so part of it maybe

is a mindset or maybe just a predisposition. I don't know. Yeah, so you're talking about the difference between tangible assets and intangible So so so it's like you're less of an n f T guy more of a masterworks kind of guy. Even that, Like, I'm like, if I don't get to put it in my I would rather if I'm gonna buy a piece of art, which I do, buy it locally. I love art. Yeah, by the look art, I put it in my house. For some reason that art like

Quinn tubbles in value cool, but I don't care really. Yeah. It also doesn't surprise me that you're into real estate because I feel like, like, are do you find yourself attracted to the aspect that you get to meet new people? So you know, it depends on how busy your life is.

But when you show a property, it can either be the most in my mind, in my experience, it neither be the most fun thing ever or it can be the most stressful thing because if your counter is pretty open, maybe the previous stendants got out of there a little bit sooner you've already gotten the place clean, it's good to go. You feel good showing it right, like you've got time on your side. You've got folks lined up and you're able to talk to them. You kind of

get to to hear their story a little bit. But then other times, I don't know, if you're you know, if there's a very narrow window and you've got to show it to twenty people, thirty people just in a single weekend is a good point. That can be stressful. But I'm thinking about your first job there at the Chords or whatever, the photo development, yeah, drug store. There's an element of interacting with people that I could see you kind of getting into just kind of being there

in person, getting to hear their story exactly. I think that's part of what I like about real estate too, is even when you have to get contractors in there something, if you get people you trust, Like I love meeting my dude Edwin at the house and he's talking like he's a great guy, and so every time they could do yeah, it's like I gotta put a you know, a new bath tub in a place or something like that. Like I get to you get say hi to him.

And so your most recent work that you did at a rental uh some fresh yeah, new bath, new new tile exactly. And so those are the kind of things where I think that relational aspect, that bouncing around town and getting out of the house like that stuff kind of um, it's a lot of fun in my book. Yeah, yeah, so kind of On that note, we talk a decent bit here on the show about financial independence. We just you know, we just talked about it here a little bit.

We talked about financial freedom. We've shared how you know, how we've essentially reached coast fire. And so what advice would you give to anyone who is really pursuing financial independence they're really getting after it. Do you have any specific thoughts to share with folks? I guess when you when you phrase it that way, probably my initial reaction is to make sure you're doing it in a sustainable way.

Was that a bias question? The way asked? No, no, no, no no. I just think I think like for the idiots out there who all they care about his money and they're just trying to hit their number, if somebody is already overdoing it, then you probably need to cool your jets a little bit, and overdoing it is a specific thing, right, but uh, there are there are a lot of ways to accomplish the goals that you want without burning out in the midst of accomplishing those goals.

And I think there is there's something to be said for slowing down and doing it in a methodic whole way, because if you're savings rate is, well, what if it was and you got to enjoy your life a little bit more and maybe you weren't working your fingers to the bone, and maybe you got to spend more time with people that you loved and you got to take an extra week off. I mean, those are the kind of things where it's all it's come back to what I said about sneakers. It's all a tradeoff, and you

can buy those sneakers. Now. I'm not suggesting that you should. I'm just saying like, there are measured trade offs that are worth making in even even in the here and now. And that's exactly what we try to bring to the show every week, right, is saying like we drink a fancy beer because it adds a lot to our life and it call us more money than most people are willing to pay, but there we have just a few

areas of our lives where we do that. And I think there are some people who, in the dogged pursuit of financial independence, have are not letting themselves enjoy almost anything. And I think that's a tough position to be in. I would say, don't do stuff that you hate longer than you need to just for money. But but at the same time, we are also pro financial independence, we're pro that pursuits, and so it is this, it is this balance that you have to strike and hard to

strike that balance. Yeah, the the loudest voices are the extremes, and they're the ones telling you, like, go all the way, go all out, and you can do this in five years or less. And then there are the other people who are like, go the slow, methodical route and if you just invest, you know, seven eight a year, you'll

be able to retire when you're forty five. And we're saying, and it's not a super sexy message, but that there is an awesome place in the in between where you can you can live the way you want to in a lot of ways now while paying a lot of attention to your money and how you invest. So that you can set yourself up for success us in a few years from now, and then for a lot of success,

you know, a decade or or two from now. Yeah, absolutely, man, you know so, I think we've got a lot of listeners who are all across the spectrum when it comes to where they are in their pursuit of financial independence and their pursuit of being really smart with their money.

But I think there's a sort of a real danger or a real temptation to look at what the world is feeding you and telling you that you should do, which is oftentimes the pursuit of money, success power, the different things achievement right generally speaking, whether it be the boss at work who is a great boss and who is encouraging you, Like we talked about earlier, it's like, oh,

you're such a great writer. And while that may have initially just been kind of a paddle on the back or just them truly calling out a talent that they see that can easily find its way being channeled into working more and and neglecting some of the other important things in life. Um Like, I feel like money, just generally speaking, is it's almost like this, like it's the sirens you know, like Odcs, he's tied himself to the mast and the sirens, the call of that money. It

will always be there. And I believe that there are fewer folks saying be careful of that, as opposed to the voices, the books, the podcasts that are out there, Yes, who are telling folks plus you need to do, just go hard after it. And then once you achieve that, you're you're gonna have options, you're gonna have success, you're

gonna have happiness. But we believe here that you've got to strike that balance, and it is I think it's going to be easier for you to maintain that balance as you climbed the ladder of success, rather than having it be completely lopsided. You climbed the ladder and then expect to be able to kind of find that balancing act while you're way up there in the ladder. I think it's a lot easier to find that balance when you're closer to the ground. But I like what you said.

I mean it truly is. It's difficult because it depends on the individual. It depends where they are in their life, it depends what they have going on, their interests, all of that you have to when we were willing to make more sacrifices with our time in order to make more money so that we could invest it to make progress for our futures. And and now you know, a

lot of the hard work has been done. And it's not that there isn't a lot of hard work, fun work left to do, but it is one of those things where, yeah, so much of it does depend on your life stage. Do you have kids, like we talked

to you know, I don't know. Just what you just said made me think of multiple episodes we've done, multiple interviews that we've done one with West Moss about happiness and how you can't just turn the dial on and off and and basically like, yeah, that the things that you're pursuing in the here and now are the hobbies. The relationships are crucial and you can't cut those off and then expect when you hit retirement where all my

friends at. And then I'm thinking about carl our interview with Mr Fi and how he's talking about how you shouldn't do live in flips when you have kids, and maybe some people are willing to do that, but like it is, there's like a time and a place for for everything, and it's not one size fits all, that's for sure exactly. Well, speaking of core pursuits, as west Moss likes to call them, different hobbies, Uh, let's get to our beer this episode, which is called Woodland Pursuit.

And I completely picked up this beer for us here on the show, specifically for you, because it's got a disc golf goal. Is that what you call him? Goals? Like the metal basket, the whole. I guess it's this golf, but it's got that. It's got a little little red putter sitting in there, and it's in it's in the woods. It's called Woodland Pursuit, which also Woodland happens to be the name of the street that you live on our

streets intersect Woodland, You've got Delaware. This is a juicy New England I pa by one of our favorite breweries, Humble Forger. What your what your thoughts on this one? And when I first saw this beer, I was like, Oh my gosh, this is like my spirit animal beer. It really is, because yeah, the disc golf, the Woodland, which is the name of my streets, perfect street that I love, and yeah, this this was this was awesome beer. Matt,

this is delicious. And you know it's funny because for an I p A. It had a lot of like fruit flavor, but not not generic fruit, like specifically like peach and apricot. Right, Yeah, absolutely, And I would say I think it's these This brewery does a lot of great fruited beers, but there's no fruit in this beer. It's all the hops, all hops. I'm like, I literally going to do a deep dive on this after we hit and stop on this episode, because I almost can't

believe that there's not actually fruit in here. But on the label it only has hops listed out. It's just it's a New Zealand there. They're New Zealand hops. I guess I wonder if the New Zealand hops have like special flavor varieties that we can't get here the sting Can you go to New Zealand and just like eat the hops right off the vine and it's like you're

eating an apricat or something. I don't want to, although I don't think they'll they'll let us in, but yeah, yeah, this beer is so sticking good, so delicious, so satisfying, and I feel like, yeah, this is now on my top Favorites list. It's the perfect balance between sweet and

the bitterness that you get from the hops. There's so much juice, but it doesn't get too sweet, Like as soon as you taste it, you think, oh, this is gonna be too sweet, but then it like it kind of like drops off and it switches to kind of like that hoppy bitterness. And so they've they've somehow struck the perfect balance. This is one of the best, certainly the best beer we've had all year. Well, shoot, yeah, we just had trillium actually, so maybe we've had some

awesolin ears. It's right up there with them. So yeah, if you happen to see this one in your local bottle shop Woodland Pursuit by Humble Forger, we would highly recommend that you pick this one up. It's fantastic. But Joel, that's gonna be it, buddy. For this episode, listeners can find our show notes up on our website at how to money dot com. That's right, and next Wednesday we'll resume kind of more of our normal format, doing a

deep dive on a specific personal finance topic. We can only interview each other so many times, I don't know we could do on a repeat. We did it twice Groundhog Day stop would be all right. Well, that's gonna do it, Matt. Until next time. Best friends out, Best friends out,