How to KEEP Yourself Out of Debt #467

out of debt. We're gonna talk about how you can stay out of debts. And by the way, have you ever gotten like kicked out of a bar? I don't think so. I'm trying to think. I wish I had a good story, but you and I are two, We're two law abiding dudes, and yeah, I don't think I've even ever been asked to leave. I tend to be fair, really well behaved when I'm mountain, one thing I'm not

terribly proud of. But a long time ago, this is what I'm day before I the dirt, Okay, at a Braves game, I was sitting next to the bullpen for the opposing team the It was the Florida Marlins back then. I don't think they had name changed. They're the worst, and I think I maybe was like just you know, not no cursewords or anything like that, but just just some general unkind heckling. Yes, the part of the game.

And I remember as the security guy coming up to me like that's enough, and I was like, okay, that's I'm done. But he didn't ask you to leave or anything. No, no no, no, I did. I hadn't gotten to that point. I just said a few things and he was like, that's your good buddy. Okay. I hadn't even been drinking. I was just literally just kind of a pump punk kid, I think, a punk yeah, being a punk kid. So you were right behind the dugout or no, behind the

bullpen in the outfield? Yeah, oh, in the outfield, Okay. I was thinking because if you were, no, I didn't have the premos seat. If you can get the premos seats occasionally, because back then you could get the company tickets and if nobody claimed those, I mean you're sitting pretty close to the batter's box. Yeah. Well, even back in the day, almost no one went to Braves games, so you could get the cheap tickets and still like move up to the fancy seats, which which was nice.

That was one of those like extra perks where like oh, going down for the four hundreds to the one hundreds without paying any more money? Was it? Joyce? Was that the the usher? Yes? She was really. I can't believe I remember her name. She was awesome. I can't remember what section she was in charge of guarding. Then she did not keep out the people who are not supposed to be out. Well, in our case, we got to

know her pretty well. And there's value in relationships. That's what that taught me to And Joyce, she and I became friends and we would sit there. We would talk during the game and stuff, and I got to know her, she got to know my family. It was one of those things where, uh, it just we just kept going down to that section and hung out with Joyce every

time we went to a baseball game. I missed those days. Yeah. Well, And the fact is, if you know, it's the second third inning and she looks down and only the rows you know, you know, have people in them, Like, why not let somebody down? It looks better for TV? Right, exactly. That's what I always thought. If there are people in the stands, then you're gonna go. Yes, yeah, I mean I remember watching speaking of the Marlins their games, and

there they used to be in. I don't know these days, I don't watch baseball as much, and we don't even know if there's gonna be a baseball season this year or not at this point. But nobody went to the Marlins games, Like nobody. You think someone would hit a home run and you would see somebody from like four sections over running over to try to get the home running. Five minutes later they get the ball exactly. That's how a few people there were at those games. But Matt,

let's let's move on. Let's mention the beer that we're having on this episode. This one is called Empress Rising. It's a bourbon barrel aged stout by Birds Fly South. You pick this up on your recent trek to South Carolina. Thank you, and uh, we'll give our thoughts on this one at the end of the episode, but for now, let's get on. Let's talk about debt for a second. And and like you said, Matt, we're talking about how

to keep yourself out of debt. So We've done episodes on how to get out of debt, but but the thing is, nobody talks about how to stay out of debt, and so for for some people, debt becomes this recurring cycle. And you made a good analogy at the beginning of the episode, But what it made me think of was the Seinfeld Reservation episode. Do you remember that one? Have

you seen that? You always bring up Seinfeld and I always have to say, no, I'm not a boomer, all right, I'm not like this gen xer who is in love with Seinfeld. Please, there are lots of millennials and Gen zears watching Seinfeld on Netflix as we speak. I wouldn't be surprised, honestly if there are more gen's ears watching Seinfeld as like a nostalgia thing, because I feel like millennials, it was just before time, so it's not old enough to be cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I mean I've

I've watched a number of episodes. I'm not like a Seinfeld person all the way, although I do think it's really funny. But there's this one episode, and I think it's maybe one of the funnier ones where Jerry gets to the rental car counter and they're like, I'm sorry, sir, we don't have a car for you. And he's like, but I have a reservation and they're like, yeah, we still don't have the car. He's like, wait, wait a second.

You know how to take the reservation, but you don't know how to keep the reservation, and really that's the most important part. And they're you know, they go through this whole song of dance talking to the supervisor and all that, and he's just you know, lamb basting the whole thing. Um. I think he eventually gets like a

subcompact car or something like that. But similarly, folks might know how to get out of debt, and but the problem is they might have to be doing it on a regular basis because they don't know how to stay

out of debt. And so, yeah, you might find yourself digging out of a debt hole each year right around this time, because this is when most people are getting their credit card statements in the mail or in the email, I guess, and so holiday spending that it tends to sneak up on a lot of people and that's why

so many folks are feeling the after effects now. But we think a crucial part of making meaningful progress with your money is learning how to take debt to the curb for good, at least the kinds of debt that we think are are the worst forms. Yeah, because you know, we also try to give a nuance take when we talk about debt, like, we don't think that all forms of debt are inherently evil. There are some forms of debt that are certainly way less evil that that than

some other types, almost tinging on good but not quite exactly. Yeah, but much of the debt that folks took out over the holidays, like you said, are the bad kind. We're talking about credit card debt. A Walt Hubs survey shows that folks say that they overspent during the Christmas shopping season, and roughly the same percentage of Americans confessed that that

meant taking on higher levels of debt. This is according to a lending Tree survey, the average American has one thousand, two nine dollars of debt weighing them down like an anvil this time of year. From Christmas, and of course, what is their preferred form of debts? Many of them put those purchases on their credit card. Uh, and they're stuck now with that debt for months to come. That is our problem that we're trying to address. That's right.

And Matt, you might think after hearing those statistics that you and I were anti credit card, but that is not the case either, right, But we are against buying stuff we like to play with fire evidently, well, I mean it's it's definitely. It's one of those things we have always said is a tool. And think of all the wonderful things you can do with fire, exactly exactly, And uh, yeah, you have a nice wood burning stove up on the screen port in your house. It's quite lovely.

It's it's a great mood center, and it's just like provide some warmth during these winter months. But at the same time, like, yeah, you could burn the house down and you weren't careful. And so the same thing is true with credit cards. Right, We're not against buying stuff on on a credit card, but we are against buying that same stuff on a credit card if you're not going to be able to afford to pay that bill in full when it arrives. And so, yes, since January,

debt hangovers have become like kind of a cycle. I would say for a lot of people Matt where they're like, how did I end up here again? Uh, let's talk about how we ensure that we don't end up in the same place in early planning ahead so that we avoid this cycle next year. So our first piece of advice, it's going to sound maybe kind of simple, but we would say to avoid debt in the first place. And that could probably be the entire like that could be

the new title for this episode in the first place. Yes, and yeah, you know you we've talked about strategies before to get yourself out of debt. But the best way to to dig yourself out of debt is to is to not have any to begin with, right, to not start in that hall. And and for most folks, the basic way to do that is to start planning ahead in a better way. And so, yeah, you might not be thinking about your Christmas or holiday present for late

right now. I'm sure you're not like picking out presents for Grandma and your sister at this moment in time in January, but you should be baking the dollars you want to spend into your budget and your savings plan. Now. You should have an idea for how much you're going to spend later on in this year, even now, and you should be saving right now those dollars that you

eventually want to spend in this right. Yeah, and now is the perfect time because you know roughly what you spent this past Christmas, so you can put together an accurate picture of of how much you will likely need tennis months from now. And plus you've got more time to save. You can make some of these these more minor changes to ensure that you avoid debt if you

start soon enough. So, for instance, you know you've heard of lay away right kind of feels like this old school way of buying stuff, But you know that that's when you want to buy something, you don't have the money, but the retailer it sets the item aside and you make payments in order to finally make the purchase take the thing home. We've got no qualums with this approach, but you know it sometimes comes without it fees. We

don't like that. Plus I hate the idea of a retailer being the one who holds your money, you know, like why let a retailer act as a savings account when you have your own savings account. And so we're all about the principles behind layaway, but we just want to see you doing that yourself. Plus actual lay away. It's it's kind of disappearing right now because of the

different buy now, pay later programs. But Joel, this this kind of makes me think of you know, earlier this month, we talked about some of the different money challenges that can jump start your finances. The fifty two Weeks Savings Challenge is made for saving for Christmas. Like literally, you set aside a dollar every single week, which means that even though we're a month into the year already, it's only gonna take you like tin bucks to get caught up.

And you can join the fifty two Weeks Savings Challenge. And what's really cool, it's a it's a dollar week, but then it ramps up it's an extra dollar sorry exactly. Yeah, so week one one dollar week to two dollars and then you know, obviously of your balance gets larger and larger. But what's super cool is that by the end of the year, you're gonna have like around which is the same amount of money that everyone is going in debt force.

It is I feel like this challenge, the fifty two Weeks Savings challenge was made for saving money and setting it aside for Christmas. So if that's something that you missed earlier this month, will make sure to include that sign up in the show. No, it's for this episode up on the website at how the Money dot com. But we would highly recommend if you have had a problem going into debt for Christmas, that you at least

consider joining the fifty two week savings Plane. Yeah, if you're like, I'm bad at planning, but I really really want to make sure that this doesn't happen again, that turning it into a game. It's like we talked about, is this great way to make planning ahead a little bit easier because you're challenging yourself and you're like, I'm

gonna rise this challenge. I'm gonna make it happen. And and Matt, if if people sign up for that challenge, not only will they get helpful reminder email from us, but also a PDF that you created to help them track their progress and print it out physical representation of the money progress that you're making. Is is just so

helpful in in helping you like stay at it. And you mentioned by now pay later, which I wanted to touch on too, because you're right, like those layaway plans at Walmart brought him back I don't know, seven or eight years ago and they became popular kind of again. But now they're they're becoming less popular because by now pay later is like the new layaway, but there are problems.

It's we don't think by now, pay later is helpful for folks in the same way that layaway plans were because with by now pay later plans, you're getting the item right now, which provides that immediate gratification, whereas with layaway, the retailers holding onto the item until you actually have all the money in hand to to pay for it, or even not l away, but just the preferred method

of you saving up cash to buy something yourself. As you're saving o that money, yeah you've got that money in the bank, but you do not yet have that item. So there's this massive difference in how we experience the

act of buying something. If we immediately get an item when we didn't have the money versus if the store is holding onto it or versus waiting until we actually have all the money to purchase the item at once, we feel like we can move on and start buying other stuff that we want, because heck, we're on that

payment plan. Just four or six easy payments and you know, we'll be done paying off that Teddy Bear for our daughter in in like, you know, four months, which sounds crazy for smaller toys, but that's that's how far by now pay later is going. Is You're you're stretching out. You'll being able to stretch out almost any anything that you want to buy now, even just an article of clothing. Yeah, that shift that takes place, I mean it makes me think about going for like a run or like going

to work out or something like that. Sometimes folks will reward themselves with like maybe a little piece of chocolate after they get back from their run. Right, it's sort of like saying, Okay, I want to give myself the chocolate now, and then after that then I'm going to go for a run. Like no, what's the point, Like, if you haven't actually earned the thing yet, I think you have a much less chance of actually doing the hard thing as opposed to immediately gratifying yourself with the easy, fun,

delicious thing. Yeah, yeah, I agree. And and it seems like because we're we're putting the purchase down into bite size payment chunks that we can actually afford things that that ultimately we really can't afford, and and then we're gonna be paying for the item for months to come.

And it just it's psychologically makes it so much easier to buy stuff that we we don't need or that we don't have the money to buy, which increases the likelihood that we're gonna find ourselves back in this debt hole. So I think by now pay later is it seems like a solution to people where they can get the things that they want without taking on debt, because you know, you're just doing an installment plan instead of taking put it on the credit card. But but ultimately it's it's

having a very similar effect on your budget. Yeah. Well that also assumes that you make your payments on time. You're assuming the best case scenario. But if let's say you hit a little rough patch and you're not able to make that payment, well that's when you're gonna be hit with those late fees. And that's I mean, you call it what you want, you call a late fee,

you call it interest payments. You are still paying more for an item because you're using leverage to to buy things that you can't afford in the here and now. But we're gonna give some more practical tips for keeping folks out of debts, and we'll get to those after this break. All right, Matt, we're back. We're talking about how to keep yourself out of debts, right and you know,

let's let's talk about why for a second. And Um, that might sound self explanatory, but one of the things we want to point out, we want to make sure you hear, is that you know, the biggest problem with debt isn't necessarily the fact that you want new stuff. Matt and I were not against buying new things on occasion. We get the new items occasionally, yes, and we're human. I talked to you in passing about the home rento

that I'm doing at our house right now. We're doing a lot of work and it involves buying a lot of new stuff and it's gonna get used. You get new tile exactly. You didn't get used would although I thought about getting used out but I did not. Um, And it's it's it's one of those things where or at least it's like vintage tile at reclaimed would oftentimes that's all even actually more expensive than getting even new the new stuff. True, it's like, we don't wanna pretend

that we don't buy new stuff. And and and we have friends in this space, friends we've had on the show who are almost like against buying new stuff at all, and they make that a pattern of their lives to encourage people not to buy new things, and they don't do it themselves. And we think that's admirable, but that's

not the stance that we take. And so we just we don't want to suggest that you shouldn't be buying new things, but we do want to suggest and uh strongly suggest that you shouldn't be paying interest in order to finance the new stuff. That's what we dislike. And so, yeah, not being able to pay for it in full means

that you're paying more for everything that you're buying. And the average person Matt has a revolving credit card balance of close to six thousand dollars, which means not only do they have that like credit card debt hangover right now in January, but at the same time they're they're paying roughly a thousand dollars in interest to the credit card companies every single year, and you know, that's a huge portion of your annual income going to the credit

card companies because you were not able to rain in some of that spending, right, And so yeah, just think of all the other good that that money could be doing for you, not for the visa or master card. And so yeah, we would say utilizing debt for everyday purchases means that you're overpaying for everything. Everything that if it's sixty bucks, it turns out it actually costs you

seventy two dollars, right, everything is costing you more, that's right. Yeah, And remember too that the concept of interest, like that concept right there, like that isn't inherently evil either. You just want to make sure that you are on the

receiving end of interest, not on the paying end. We've used this analogy before, but interest is kind of like an escalator, right, and so when you're walking up the side that is going up like a normal human being, you're going to get to that next floor really quickly. Like that is what happens when you invest your money and you've got interest working for you. But if you're going against the flow, you've got the steps coming at you rather than with you. It sounds like a lot

of fun. If you're like a middle schooler, then it's gonna take so much more effort. And that is what it's like to have consumer debt. That's a great way to think about interest. You what it's working for you, not against Yeah, and this is not an episode about investing, but we talked about that enough and how that is giving you the opposite effect over time, right that that your money is working for you, whereas you know, when you're in debt, uh, the lack of money is working

against you. Now that we're planning ahead, though, in order to attempt to avoid debt in the future, it's also important to evaluate what lad you into debt in the first place. So we'd say that's another really important step in making sure that you don't find yourself ground like groundhog Day, you know, in the same position every single year.

And so, yeah, there are probably some underlying behaviors that you're not incredibly aware of that you need to kind of come to grips with, Like was it something random like a medical bill from an accident that was a one time thing, Because that's that's a different thing that we're talking about when it comes to the debt load that you have in your life. If so, then a

simple solution is to have more cash in savings. You probably know what we're gonna say here, but you need an emergency fund, right, and so yeah, for for those that margin, those things you can't plan for, you've gotta have the margin exactly, and so yeah, it's it's obviously it's way easier to not go into debt if you've got cash money on hand in your account. And the number we think you should be working towards as a minimum threshold of savings is two thousand, four hundred and

sixty seven dollars. That's the number we always share because that is a statistic that economists have found to be helpful for the majority of people. And hopefully hopefully that I fund grows even bigger. Matt like more people should have more money than that in savings, but getting at least to that buffer point is crucial when it comes to staying out of debt in the future. That's right, And honestly, with inflation, it is probably more than two

four six seven. That's probably yeah, that's true. It's probably now it's like or something. Yeah, But until we get that new updated number, we're holding to the two four six seven number. But having savings on hand, this provides an incredibly tangible benefit. There are real dollars there to help you out in case you need them. But it also has like some of these uh psychle logical benefits

and ramifications as well. You know, just knowing that you have money on hand to tackle any emergency that might come along, it's going to diminish the stress that you feel when you think about your finances. Just knowing that you've got money to cover an unexpected expense or even a last minute gift for a friend that slipped your mind. It's just relaxing in a really helpful way to know that you do have that margin, you have that money

set aside. It's not just about physically covering the cost of something, but just the mental benefit that it can provide as well. Yeah, and knowing how you got into trouble in the first place just helps you know how to get out right. If you know that you took this path down into this pit in the Grand Cany and you're like, how do I get out of here? When you're when you're on a hike, when you can

go up the way you came. But if you're if you kind of lost your positioning and you're trying to figure out how to get back up, you might take a more treacherous path or something, right, And so we want you to know how you got into it in

the first place. If it was just slow and steady spend this drip drip drip, where you were just spending more than you made every single month, that's a different story and that needs to be addressed a little bit differently than something like a one time medical bill, right, and and so yeah, that that's when you you start to evaluate, you realize maybe it was more than than

a random one off event. And so yeah, in this case, uh, if it is that drip drip drip, what we want a huge component of avoiding debt is to tamp down lifestyle inflation, because the less of stuff that you're jonesing to buy, the more intact your finances are going to be. You'll be less inclined to take on debt if you have what Matt and I like to call lower expectations. And it's it's one of those things that sounds a little weird, to lower your expectations. Who tells people that, well, yeah,

nobody is you and I do? We do, and it's it's certainly counter to the consumption based economy we live in, but there's real power in having lower expectations. For instance, if you work out, let's say, three times a week, but your expectation to work out is only twice a week, you are going to be so happy because you are an overachiever crushing it. But if you're expecting to work out five days a week, you're probably not going to be happy with just getting you know, on your buy

here to the gym three times. And so lifestyle inflation is similar. If we can change our expectations, we'll find that we can easily be happier with less. And when we're happier with less, that makes it far less painful to say no, which helps to keep us out of debt. Yeah, you know, the fact is too that that someone might have champagne taste on a beer budget. And yeah, the I like expensive stuff, right, some people? What can I say?

Some people do they raise that way or they just maybe even were raised in like a house where fancy stuff was like completely ignored, and so they were like, no, no, I want my portion of fancy stuff now. But they can't actually afford it, and so the psychological shift is really the only remedy in that case. Right, Um, And you know we talked about sometimes like intentionally taking on hardship, and yeah, there are a lot of stoic Yes, yeah, exactly.

I mean that's certainly a philosophy of the stoics is to intentionally do hard things to build your resilience levels. So there are certain things we would never ask people to do just the same of building resilience. We're not necessarily stoics, but there are things that we believe that we could do to better ourselves and certainly better our

our our financial position. Yeah, initiating a certain amount of hardship on purpose can be a good thing, and not only just from your savings habit now staying out of debt, but also just from you know, an emotional psychological standpoint. And we would say, like intentionally stepping out of your comfort zone that can allow you to completely rethink an issue that maybe you used to think was important but

now it kind of isn't any more. And so yeah, during a moment of clarity where you're intentionally doing something more difficult, like a spending challenge or a Savings challenge. Like we've talked about different things that you can implement into your life to kind of make it a little more make the road a little more difficult for a shorter period of time. It can allow you to adopt

a healthier perspective moving forward. And so, yeah, putting yourself in some of those harder situations on purpose helps to build some of that resiliency that we think is important to help keep you out of debt in the future too. That's right. I mean, as you're talking about the challenges, it makes me think of the no spend challenge because for some people that is going to be a form of self deprivation, right to say I am not going to spend in this particular category for the rest of

the year. And again we'll make sure to link to the episode where we talked about some of the different challenges, but those will all be available to sign up for in our show notes. But you know, like it, it also does make me think of some of these different practices I've heard of. I've heard of folks who will like only eat beans and rice for an entire week,

and it's not like go on some special diet. They're just literally doing that in order for them to appreciate the food that they normally eat that they do have access to the same thing I actually need somebody in college you did this, uh, And he would sleep on a sleeping bag on the floor in order to appreciate his bed. In his case, he was getting ready to go camping, like he would do it, paring yourself for

for that. Eventually, when he went camping, he would enjoy it because it was something he was more used to. But again, we're not necessarily recommending you go that far, but finding some small ways to introduce some of these challenges I think can be a good way for us to kind of take the like stoicism. Lie. Yeah, And I think there was something the other day, I don't remember what it was where Emily and I were talking and it was something really special that we got to

do and we just had a lot of fun. And I was like, man, you know some people do this almost every day like that, or I think it was a special meal that we shared, and I was like, some people, I don't know that. I see they're eating like this on the rag. How can you appreciate it if you're doing it all the time? And I was just so appreciative that we got to have that experience, and I think it makes it even more valuable when

it's not something that's a constant in your life. But at the same time, you have to everyone has to identify their craft beer equivalent exactly. That's what we're always trying to strike that balance, right exactly. Another helpful practical way to stay out of debt that we wanted to mention too is to get rid of some of the different triggers that cause you to spend. We want you to avoid temptation in the first place, because if you can avoid that temptation in the first place, that might

also allow you to avoid debts to begin with. So, for instance, it's easier to say no to eating ice cream if you don't have any ice cream in the freezer. Right, It's gonna be a lot harder if you have to resist it when it's just ten feet away behind the doors of your freezer. Have the willpower amount that's needed to avoid it, just like it just went up, vastly stronger amounts of willpower required. That's why we have the old adage of never going grocery shopping while you're hungry.

But for general spending, this probably means using different social media platforms like Instagram or TikTok less often maybe not even at all, if that's the place that consistently gets you to spend. I say this from personal experience, but

the different algorithms and ads that pop up. Man on Instagram, they've gotten so good, And I swear I searched for one thing, and I try to do some price comparing online, and then next time I hop on Instagram, you know, literally every other ad that I'm fed, it's just like five versions of that exact item that I'm looking. I think Instagram knows you better than your best friend. Man, sorry I don't know you as well. That's probably right.

But something else you might need to unsubscribe from your favorite retailer. You know, the emails at least send out where they're giving you the different discounts and what new items they have in stock. We want you to determine where temptation sets in for you and actively work to avoid those situations moving forward. But we've got several other practical steps that we're gonna recommend for you to consider

in your life. And we're also going to talk about shifting debt around whether that makes sense for you or not. We'll get to all of that right after this break. We'll back. We're still talking about staying out of debts, and one of the things we talked about is that part of the problem is that people are putting purchases on credit cards. And again we want to reiterate we're not against credit cards. We are heavy users have credit cards whose pay the bill off on time and in

full every month. But one thing that might need to happen for some people who have a tough time actually using credit cards and using them well, who say, actually, this tool in my hands is an instrument of of evil for my finances, then cash might be something that they need to consider. And so I want to point out something that you said that you said this tool is an instrument for evil. You didn't say that it's an evil instrument, right, And that's what we're saying here.

It's like it's being able to realize that you're not able to use it effectively, that you are evil. It's not the tool. It's like it's like a really sharp knife, right, Like used effectively, you want a really sharp knife. I think a lot of chefs say that like the worst accidents that happened in the kitchen, they happened with a dull knife because you're not able to use it properly. But guess what, you can also cut off the tip of a finger with a really sharp knife too, so

you do need to be careful. It's also kind of like the ring in Froto's hands versus in Gollum's hands. And you know, there's there's a clear winner that you want that that he can use the tool effectively. The other guy is just gonna worship it, right, But eventually Frodo also knew that he had to get rid of the rings. It was also it was only destroyed by

by an accident, so that's an imperfect analogy. But speaking of severed fingers, all right, so this is cash is not our preferred method to buy things, Like we said, we use credit cards, but yeah, if you have a hard time not going overboard, then yeah, using cash is

going to be helpful. And if you want to continue to use plastic because of the rewards and you think that you can do better, we would say make a point to write down every purchase that you make when you make them, so kind of like a ledger on a checkbook, the old school thing, but make your own and carry it around with you wherever you go, because keeping track of every expense and you know the current balance that's left in your account, even though it's not

actively coming out of your account, is gonna help ensure that you're not spending more than you have. So we'd say no yourself. If you can't use a credit card responsibly, don't do it um. And then if you're somewhere in between, you're like, I think I can then give this a shot. Or you're tracking your spending as you go, because that

can help you stay out of that that's right. But if you can't, you know, avoid it altogether because that you know, that seven fifty dollar sign a bonus, it's not gonna be worth it if you're going to overspend from now until the end of time. But like you said, if you are using your credit card wisely for the most part, but maybe you just need a little bit more accountability, it's pretty easy to turn on notifications where you get alerted or you know, you get a little

text message every time that card is used. And so I think this could be a really handy uh method if you have combined finances with your partner. But this could even be something that you implement with a money accountability partner, someone you know, who you trust, who is willing to help coach you a little bit. Uh. And the thing is too, this can go both ways. It

can be a reciprocal relationship. If you have found somebody who shares the you know, similar goals as you, who has shared interests, who is also frugal, this canna be a practice that goes both ways. Like it makes me think back like back in the Dagil especially if you know I was married, you had just gotten married, um

to Emily. But if you were single, and if I was single, I could totally you know, when we first met in More Buds, I could totally see us having been like financial accountability partners to a certain extent because at the time, you know, we've shared recently during our money origin stories how like we were getting into real estate and to kind of have that accountability of like, hey, do you think that's really gonna be worth it? Or are you gonna put that money towards a down payment

for that rental property that you've been talking about. That's the kind of give and take that's the kind of behavior and like camaraderie honestly that we're hoping that you can start implementing in your life. Yeah, And I think there's there's a lot to be said for expertise and having being in a relationship with someone who's more knowledgeable than you are, some something like a mentor, right, a

money mentor or something like that. But I think there's a heck of a lot to be said for doing it simultaneously with someone that you're close with, even if they don't know a whole lot more than you, because you can spur each other on. And sometimes it is it's like you don't necessarily need some Arnold Schwarzenegger looking, uh,

super fit person to help you work out. It could just be a friend who's willing to show up at the same time as you, and that can be also wants to work out because he deals with the same struggles.

That can be just as effective, I think as hiring some sort of expensive personal trainer, totally and honestly to while we're talking about credit cards, it also makes me think about freezing your credit you know, uh, Well, we're talking about different things that you can implement, different layers of accountability, different barriers that you can erect that can

keep you from accessing maybe more credit than you can handle. Uh. Even though yes, you can go in there and unfreeze it and then apply to that credit card, you still have the shame of being like, am I really going to go in there and unfreeze my credit? When I'm going back to the A T M at the casino? Like? Am I actually gonna do that? The walk of shape? Yeah, Uh, it's anything you can implement in your life like that that causes you to think twice about it. That's what

we want you to consider. Yes, all right, Matt. Another thing that I think is really helpful for a lot of people when it comes to staying out of that is to create lists and then stick to them. Because let's say, yeah, you're grocery shopping, and it's so easy if you don't have a list to just toss random things in your card, like a six dollar box of Lucky Charms. Why not, Like, might as well throw in some bags of Doritos while I'm at it, And so yeah, if you don't have to throw in the towel, like

nothing matters anymore. I'm getting all the junks I guess I'll get the hogandas too. I mean, there's all sorts of things if you don't have a list that's gonna that are gonna end up in your basket and at the end you're gonna be like, why was that bill so high? And how to them? I don't have anything to cook for dinner this week, still even after going on that grocery store run. And so yeah, I think that list is a full way to stay focused on

the task at hand. Not only do they help you put blinders on, but they're also gonna to make sure that you get everything you need and then avoid another trip back to the store, which stinks. And while grocery shopping is a meaningful part of your monthly budget, like the stakes are a little bit lower than they are

maybe in other phases of life. But I think to drive this point at home, Matt, there's the example of airline safety, and case after case when it comes to airline safety, it demonstrates that accidents on airplanes are almost always come from the pilot or the flight crew skipping a pre flight checklist. It's one of those things where they're like, I know this by heart. I don't know how to go to the checklist and then ultimately what ends up happening is they miss one or two of

those important items and then disaster strikes. Right, And so we would say that lists are helpful in almost every sphere of life, and so you should start creating lists more frequently for grocery shopping, for your needs, for your kids, even like whatever it is, have a list set out when you're shopping for clothes, like what do you need so you don't end up buying random pairs of pants

that aren't needed. Um, there are all sorts of ways to implement lists into your life so that you avoid buying more than you need and going into more debt. That's right. You can go with pin and paper, but you can just I mean, having digital lists on our phones is such an incredible help. I mean, Kate and we use the basic Apple Reminder's app when it comes to, you know, putting things on the grocery list that we need.

But you can like to do isst any do? Like these are great applications that can allow you to stay focused, to help you to keep the blinders on when it comes to staying on task, and it could also be helpful to oper grocery pickup instead. You know what we're talking about food here, but when you do grocery pickup, but it helps you to avoid uh, not only the delivery fees, but this also means that you don't have to set foot inside the store if you have a

tough time not going overboard when you go shopping in person. Target, they are totally free. In Kroger and Walmart are both free with a thirty five dollar minimum order, which isn't hard to do these days, and Grated. You know, these grocery stores aren't going to be as affordable as Aldi or Costco, our favorites. But if going with pick up at a slightly more expensive store keeps you from spending a ton in person at a more affordable store, we'll

pick up is going to win every single time. Yeah, it's if you're going to go into Aldi and buy five bags of those Clancys uh Torito rip offs, which, by the way, people everybody disagree with me on that. And you know what, the last time I had them right, I think they're right. Honestly, I was terrible. I was like,

they're much worse. To remember that you were saying that they're like pretty good and we we we had like listeners right in they're like, oh no, no, no no, no, no, what's wrong with actually way like Matt, we're with you the knockoff and I gotta say I'm with you two. I regret my decision to say that they were a worth worthy food item. They're not. You can go ahead and pick up a six pack of Aldi beer while

you're eating your clain seas. You can ed your Clancys beer in your They have baked barbecue chips, which are actually pretty good, though are they I don't know if they're Clancys brand or something else, but um, whatever, the baked barbecue chips they're they're pretty good. Just avoid the Dritto dot com. Yes, actually do so. Sorry about that

for advice earlier. But let's talk about discipline to Matt, because that's that's a part of the equation, right you have to I'm guessing there are some folks who are listening right now and they're saying, yeah, I track my spending and I create lists. That stuff's easy. Um, but just because those are hard, tangible actions that we can take, it doesn't necessarily make the getting to where we want to go easy. It doesn't mean the road is isn't hard.

And so going back to physical fitness, right like, if you have a desire to eat more veggies um and to go on more runs, well, there are clear tangible steps you can take if you're trying to live a healthier life. It doesn't mean that actually living a healthier life is easy. It might be simple, like the steps might not be terribly difficult, but it doesn't mean it's easy. And so the same thing is true with our finances, right like simply put, spend less money than you make

and invest the rest. That's how you build wealth. Like how in the world is there a personal finance podcast that has almost five episodes, like it's really it's it's not rockets. Formula is pretty simple. But again, there's a big difference between something being simple and something being easy. Yes, because it takes patients. As you work and you build up the discipline in your financial life. We would say, don't expect to perfectly turn your spending around on day

one or even on day thirty. Progress is slower than we want it to be. It's gonna take some time, and so don't be hard on yourself when you make a mistake. Don't let that be the reason that you get off the train altogether, and you're like, screw it, I'm just gonna like go back to the debt cycle that that I've been in. But at the same time realize that discipline is is a real part of the equation to staying out of debt. That's right. Let's make

another observation about debt real quick. Um, As we said, some forms of debt are going to be worse than others. A paid a loan right like like that comes with interest rates and the hundreds of percentage points if you were to annualize it, but your mortgage it might only have a rate of two point seven, most likely sub three on a third of your mortgage. There's just this massive gap like the size of Russia here. Uh. Like

these things honestly, like they're more dissimilar than they are similar. Uh. And so one thing you should do is see if you can aim to make your current debt look better. The ultimate goal is to pay off those debts, for sure, but there are ways to make your debt less heinous while you're working towards that goal. Balance transfer offers are

one excellent way to do this. We have an article up on the website that will actually link to in our show notes for this episode that will explain how balance transfers work if you've not given one of those a shot, as well as some of the cars that we recommend. You can also negotiate your debt if it's getting overwhelming. Know that you are not stuck in this rut of paying exactly what it is that you are entitled to pay. Know that you like there is some

local room if you can negotiate with a credit card. Yeah, I think I think it's a good point. Mat. I think there are ways to make bad debt look not as bad by luring the a p R of that debt.

And yeah, you mentioned a couple of going the APR, negotiening of the terms of an interest free period perhaps, and maybe you don't even have to negotiate, like you said, just transfer that batt it's to another card like are a readily available zero percent interest rate for eighteen months, and then while you're paying lesson interest, figure out find find a way to make sure that that card is

paid off inside those eighteen months, so you're avoiding interest altogether. Um, And so yeah, I think, like you said, there are ways that you can d I Y. This one thing that we don't ever want folks to do. Those to listen to people who want to consolidate your debt for you. Those are that's a pitfall and that will actually keep you in debt longer. That's not gonna help you stay out of debt. Uh. These companies often charge up front fees and they make these lofty promises, but they almost

never help in the ways that they're promising too. So, yeah, we just make sure you avoid those companies they advertise on the internet. Avoid them like the plague. They often like leave people in just a much worse financial position. And so if you need actual help, the best place to turn is to nonprofit companies that have relationships with the credit card companies, with the companies that you might

be in debt to who can actually help. They can help reach ructure your debt potentially, uh and help you come up with a payment plan that's actually gonna work. And so Money Management International is one of our favorites. NFCC dot org is another great place to turn. Those are two nonprofits that provide a whole lot of free

help for people that continue to struggle with that. Yeah, that's right, So we're talking mostly about staying out of debt, but we at least stuck in a little bit of getting out of debts talk here, uh and Joel, one other thing we wanted to mention, what about other like outside of the box options to avoid debt in the first place, Because you know, someone who's listening, they might say something like, well, you know, to avoid taking them more debt, I'm just gonna snack some money from my

retirement funds. That's better than putting it on the credit card. Right. Well, they're both awful, not quite because you know, it's not that there aren't any instances we're taking money from a retirement account is the best route, but they are few and far between. Depending on what type of account you pull that money from and what mechanism you use to get it, you might owe taxes plus that additional ten percent penalty oftentimes and us Now that's money that is

not invested. That's money that originally, at some point you had sacrificed and you had denied yourself, but instead now you're using the money to fund some purchases, and instead we want you to keep that money invested in your different retirement accounts. Please do not touch that money. Yeah, that can be tempting. It's like Matt and Joel said that I should stay out of debt, and so the best way to do this is take cash that I

have on hand out of my retirement account. You think that's cash on hand, but it's not that that should be like considered luck box money. And so, yeah, you want to do all of these other things. You don't want to be tempted to reach into that that bucket that's for your future starting yanking money out of there, because, like you said, Matt, that is going to have devastating

consequences for financial you ten years down the road. So yeah, hopefully these were some helpful thoughts on how to keep yourself out of debt, because we don't want to just see people climb out. We want to see people never not be able to pay that credit card bill in full ever. Again, Like, that's what we want that that never even have to cross your radar, to have enough money saved built up to where debt basically becomes a foreign concept in your life. That's that's what we want

to see for you. That's right, ma, Let's go ahead and shift gears and go back to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode. Um, we had an Empress Rising, which is a bourbon barrel imperial stout by Birds Fly South up there in Greenville, South Carolina. What were your thoughts on this beer? Okay, so I've had a few beers from Birds Fly South, and I feel like I'm used to their more earthy beer styles.

They've got some good farmhouse farmhouse says on stuff like that, and I like everything I've had from them and that that those are styles that I really enjoy and appreciate. I don't think I've ever had a stout from them, and this how this stout had like some funkiness to it, which I wasn't expecting. Um, it's not making my top ten list, but I feel like I can see what they were going for. It's just to me, the flavor profile is it's like there's one cylinder missing out of

a six cylinder inchin or something. I feel like there's just something slightly off. It's just not probably doing it for me. Although I find it interesting and I think, you know, they usually make great beers, this is just

not the best one I've had from them. Yeah, this is specifically a a mole style, and so I do you know, earlier on Monday, we had a beer that was that was a hatch chili screen hatch, and we're talking about having beers with with more peppers in it, and so I appreciate that this has some of that going on. It's a mole style, so it's got some heat. You can taste the you know, the different Chipotle peppers. They've got some other peppers that are listed out here.

But you mentioned that you feel like it's missing a cylinder. I feel like that there's an extra cylinder thrown then thrown in there, like it's like a four cylinder and somehow they fit a fifth. Because the acidity of this beer, like it wasn't noted anywhere on the can, but to me,

like that's what really stands out. It's it's almost part which makes me wonder if this beer is slightly off or if maybe the pH wasn't exactly where they had intended it, because it doesn't say anything on this can about this kind of being more of a tart stout, and typically that's not a style that brewers are going for. But that being said, even if this is this beer is off, I still enjoyed it. It was still all those different flavors they had going on, that higher acidity.

I mean, you hear me talking about acid all the time on the on the podcast with when it comes to my beers. But I really like having a beer that's higher in a cidity. It's just that maybe the flavors aren't totally on, Like it's a well balanced beer, but maybe the actual specific flavors might be off. I'm

not I'm not totally sure. We haven't had a ton of off beers, and so I feel like I need to need to take a course and like this is what you need to look for tastes, you know, Okay, so specifically, I know one of the things that you look for in a bad beer is if it tastes like butter. So I think maybe like an I P A S or maybe I can't remember specifically what styles. Isn't that what Harry Potter drinks. It's true, but Harry

Potter likes bad beer, that's true. Evidently he likes beer that has like this chemical But if it tastes like if you are drinking a beer and it tastes like butter popcorn and it's not supposed to. That is a clear sign of a beer that is off. When it comes to this one, I'm not totally sure. So that's kind of like there's a big question mark on this beer. But I still enjoyed it. Well, good times. They'll tell you that a medical the listeners. When I was there

at the brewer, you did. Yeah, So it's always fun. By the way, if anybody like just come up and say hi, we love just meeting people, especially if we're at a brewery. I mean, that's like, that's how they know it's us exactly. That's gonna be it for this episode. Listeners. You can find show notes up on the website, and how It's Money dot Com will make sure to link to any of the different resources that we may have mentioned during this episode, yes, including some of those money challenges.

If you have not joined, please do sign up for that. It's completely free, we won't spam you, and hopefully it'll help you achieve some of those money goals, including staying out of debts. Right all right, Matt, Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,