Getting Your Money Etiquette Right #422

You gotta figure it out. You can just trying to help people figure it out earlier, exactly, you kind of pick up on it, and naturally some folks do. But then some folks just don't. Some folks have no clue that, oh I should be sending a follow up email. Oh I should proactively ask, like what can I do to make your life better? Boss? Like that kind of thing, right. I think the same thing is true when it comes to money etiquette. There are some folks who are more

who you know, let's be honest. They have a higher emotional quotient perhaps, and they're able to just pick up on small little hints and clues and just how people are responding to them when they're talking about money, whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But then

there's some folks who truly have no clue. And so we are talking about money etiquette today because we want this to be something that we are talking about more often, because if this is you, you want to stop making your friends uncomfortable every time you talk about saving money or pinching pennies or being being frugal. These are all things that can be talked about well. But it does come down to what approach you take right. And sometimes people decide not to talk about money at all because

they think that's the right etiquette. We disagree on that too. We'll get to that later in this episode. So this is basically how the Money Emily Post edition on on today's show, and we'll get to that. But man, I want to mention really quickly so everybody knows that we love craft beer. Today on the show, we're drinking and I p a by Barrel Brewing, but I wanted to quickly mention that I think for the first time ever,

I balked at purchasing a beer. I walked away from the cooler and I didn't take that four pack in my hands because the price point was just too high. And so I don't know, I wonder even prices have gone up. I mean just even over the past few years, we've seen the price First of all, it's gone from six packs to four packs, which that alone really pisses some people off. I don't mind because a liquid, but

for most there's a four packs. Yeah, um, but it is a higher typically it's a higher quality beer, and I can appreciate that, right, But the thing is like, even with something that I love, I have a limit and um and and so I think it was thirty three or thirty four dollars for a four pack of this delicious sounding sour that was like really highly rated on on Tapped, and I was like, man, I really want to try it, but it turns out that I was like, it's just to me, it's not worth that, Like,

I don't want to try it that badly. There are some really great beers that I can get for fifteen or sixteen or eighteen bucks for a four act and even that like took me a while to be feel comfortable spending that. But yeah, I was like, whenever the single section to see if I could find a single can of that, even though that would be like nine dollars, but at least then I'm like, all right, I get to taste it, but I don't have to, you know,

put out all the money. I was gonna have to remind you here for a second, I was gonna say, Joel, like craft beer is our craft beer equivalent, Like like this is something that we splurge on. But even in that, there's got to be a limit. Right If if your BMW is the is your craft beer equivalent, that's okay, but you have to go all the way to the M three edition that costs like thirty more not probably not.

So I mean, like I think even within the things that we love, there are limits, and it's okay to say, you know what, today I'm not feeling it. Maybe not. Yeah, maybe in a few months you'll get used to it. Because here's the thing, what if that was going to be, like in your opinion, that could have been the best beer in the entire world if I knew would not have known because we didn't even give it a shot. If I knew that that was what it was going

to be, I would have paid it. But I was like, I mean, it's another beer and it rates well, but um, I don't know. So I'll look again in the single section see if I can find it next time, because I don't mind spending maybe nine bucks on one great beer. Well, if it's not that great, I guess that's the that's the thing that you're trying to do, the risk your take, like you would avoid spending a ton of money on four beers where you're saying to yourself, man, that really

wasn't worth it. I can have an equivalent quality beer for maybe twenty bucks for a four pack. Yeah, if I'm underwhelmed on at thirty something dollar beer, I'm you're stuck with probably not gonna be happy. You're gonna be like, hey man, you wanna go in have these with me on this particular jump off on your doorstep. But okay, so I know we've all got that price point. I just want our listeners to know too. We as had a had a money hosts even have our price limits.

Even in the category that we love to spend money on, it's still worth being price conscious. Yeah. I still bought some good beers that day, but just not that particular one, all right, Let's let's keep moving on the Matt. Let's get to the topic at hand. We are discussing getting your money etiquette right, and Matt speaking of unwillingness to spend I personally, I don't really spend a whole lot of money at fancy restaurants. Think we've talked about this

not too long ago. The one time my wife and I did go to one of those fancy restaurants where you can watch the chef cook. I was a little nervous about the bill I was gonna receive. We like good food, but the super fancy restaurant culture just isn't really our jam. And like, if that's if there's like three forks on the table, I'm probably walking out of there because one I don't even really know, like which direction you're going? Is it out to end? Is that

I don't even know? Okay, it's okay. I be're like, what's that for doing at the top about place? I don't know. You're more refined than me. I thought you might have known. But I mean, I enjoy k and I like going to fancier laser restaurants, But the actual etiquette that goes into the niceties of which fork I'm supposed to use with what course, I'm less refined in that in that way, my pallets refined. But my etiquette

maybe could do some work. So maybe you and I neither of us are the people to be giving etiquette advice on today's show. But we're gonna but we know money we're gonna push through. We're gonna try anyway, and we're gonna talk about different money conundrums that pop up in all of our lives, stuff like splitting the bill, tipping, going on dates, and more. There's just there's also we want you to know ahead of time. There's a lot of subjectivity around this topic. So you're gonna hear our

opinions today, you're gonna hear our thoughts. But yeah, we hope that they're helpful in informing you and giving you some direction when it comes to those tough money etiquette decisions. But just know too, these aren't like the ten amandments handed down from on high from the kind of money house. These are actually, uh, these are kind of how we treat these things and how we think you should think through. Maybe these money etiquette can untrums. They're meant to me

more like ballpark answers than like specific facts. Yeah, and you mentioned the Ten Commandments. So because I think that's so true. I think there are a lot of folks who believe that there are some money rules or principles that pretty much are etchton stone. Uh. They feel that there's either a right way and you know, then there's a wrong way to do things. But so much of

money is personal. Um, and not only personal, but there are social expectations and different pressures placed on us, and so sometimes we're not sure of what the you know, the right path for us to take is. Uh. And so for instance, if gratuity, if it's already included on the build, do I I still tip extra? It's helpful to think about this kind of stuff before the bill hits the table, so you don't end up, you know, guilt tipping or just you know pulling a money etiquette

faux pa just running away. Uh, you can't, Yeah, you don't want to dine and dash. And also, you know, we want you to be confident that you have the money in your budget to actually cover that generous tip if you so choose to. And so our goal for this episode is to help you to think about the right way to think about these things. We want to help you to navigate these money etiquette waters. No doubt, I think of us as like the third base coach

in baseball, Matt. You've seen him give all the weird signs to the person to play, like tugging on their ears, touching their nose, And that's kind of what we're doing here. We're like making some signals. I don't watch baseball. I know you don't. It's a playoff time, but is it? Yeah, I don't even know. But we all know about your

lack of dedication to really any sport beside soccer. But speaking of soccer, soccer is a very European sport, and my favorite model of tipping comes from Europe over there, tip tiping the South American way. Soccer is big there too. Well. I just wanted to just to briefly mention that we have kind of a unique system here in the States. The lack of tipping actually across the pond and the increased wages and the cost of the meal is just

a much more comfortable way for many people to do things. Man. I know you and I maybe disagree a little bit on this one, but you kind of know what you're paying for and you know that the server is being paid a reasonable salary, unlike here where tips are the primary source of income, like that person who's serving your food might be making a dollar fifty an hour, and then you feel a little more guilty about how much you should be tipping. And granted, yeah, if that's the case,

you should be tipping well. But in Europe, you know, there's not that element at play. I think for me, honestly, it's because of my entrepreneur background, where I knew that if I didn't work, I wasn't getting paid. It's I think I am more comfortable, for instance, with the American way where servers waiters, where their base rate isn't that high and it is predominantly, you know, focused on the tips. Yeah,

that's why. I mean. I remember as a kid going to one grocery store where the person would bring your groceries out and you would tip them directly, and then going to this other grocery store and tips weren't allowed, and so I don't know, just there's a different, uh feel as a consumer, as a customer when you go someplace and tips are involved or tips are off the table,

and I feel like right now in this environment. Part of what makes it more and more difficult these conversations around money etiquette is that tipping is expected in more and more places. Yeah, that's so true, man. I think some of the ambiguity around tipping is certainly something that leads to the confusion around tipping specifically. But let's go ahead and dive into conversations around money in general, because I think, you know, broadly speaking, let's just talk about

how we talk about money. Because everyone knows that you know money. It is an uncomfortable topic for most folks. If you try to bring it up and make it shut down, and you want to make someone squirm in their seats, like start talking about their income, you make, by the way, what's your budget look like? Man? Honestly like you might even hurt her friendship. And so we've got a few tips to make those money conversations less perilous,

uh and just more inviting. So the first little bit of advice we would give to folks here is to make sure that you are reading the room, uh, and definitely avoid complaining about money in front of people maybe that are struggling with their finances. So, for instance, if you clearly make more than a friend or you know that they you know, they don't nerd out about money stuff.

Just make sure that you're being careful about the conversation and make sure that you're being a little more casual and plus regularly complaining, that's kind of a not awesome way to do things anyway, right, So like complaining about first world problems, you know, like work piling up after a weeklong vacation to the Bahamas. That's gonna be a bit tone deaf to a friend who can't afford that time off. Hey, how is that vacation? It was great?

But man, am I backlogged at working Now? It's like I kind of wish I wasn't able to go on the vacation. It's like, Oh, really, tell me how nice that is. If you really want to get a conversation started with somebody, I think just starting with like a cool article that you came across, or just like an interesting tidbit of information you recently picked up, and just get the conversation started by you know, hopefully you're able

to pique their curiosity. So definitely don't complain and make sure that your approach is a little more kind of money philosopher rather than kind of this intense budget drill sergeant.

I think for a lot of folks who feel like that they kind of have a solid financial footing underneath them, they can approach some of those conversations with you should be doing this, you shouldn't be doing that, uh, And maybe instead they just want to talk to their buddy, you know, like they just want to talk to their girlfriend, don't necessarily want to hear all the different things they

could be doing differently with their money. Yeah, as a husband over the years, have been married eleven years, and I have realized it's taken me a while that oftentimes when my wife is having an issue, like, she doesn't want me to fix it. She really just wants me to listen, empathize here, um and sit there with her end whatever problems she's going through. And I think the same thing is true when we talk about money with

other people. When when people either bring up an issue or when you start to talk about money with them, uh, in order to keep them from shutting down or from completely de ailing the conversation, usually it takes just being a little more empathetic and you know, just hearing what they have to say, being less prescriptive. That can come later, but especially in the beginning. I think, yeah, reading the room and recognizing when someone is basically screaming at you

from inside their brain. Hey, no, no, no, that's not what I'm looking for, so that you can calm it down and bring it back to like, okay, yeah, well, I love talking because we're all about talking about money. We don't want you to come never talk about money with people. We think it's really important to have that conversation, but it doesn't always have to be do this, not that exactly. I think figuring out whether this is a I'm sorry, that really sucks conversation or if this is uh, okay,

let's see how we can fix this conversation. I found that to be incredibly valuable in my relationship with my wife, right right, And uh yeah, what about talking about money at the workplace, that's like, um, that's different than talking to your significant other or talking to a friend. You'll want to take We would say a similar low key approach, at least at first. And you know, we want you to talk about money, but we don't want you to

get in trouble. And sometimes in the workplace, if you're talking about maybe in off topic convo, like like talking about your personal finances, that could be something that your boss over here is and they're like, no, no, no, shut it down, and you'll you'll you'll find that most

coworkers actually don't want to go there with you. But we also think that doesn't mean you shouldn't try read those cues though, and then shut off the conversation quickly if that's the response you're getting, If you're getting kind of stone walled or you can tell that person is uninterested,

don't keep pushing the envelope. But yeah, you'll likely find that some of the folks you talk to will be interested, and it can be fun to connect with your coworkers on that level, especially if personal finance is super exciting to you, super interesting to them. You listen to how the money, so you probably are interested at least to some degree. But yeah, I think it's really important in that process to read the room again and make sure

that you're not pushing a conversation that isn't wanted. Yeah, and unlike your friends, your coworkers can't just stop seeing you, you know, like you still have to continue working on the project, where as your friends can I don't know, maybe stop returning your text or your calls. Uh. So you want to make sure that you're being sensitive to

the different topics that you're bringing up around them. But okay, what about compensation specifically, because I think that's a workplace conversation that again I don't hopefully we don't see this too much. We we don't want you to completely avoid these conversations, but you've got to be careful, especially when it comes to the compensation because obviously this can get pretty awkward. How much money you make, that's always the

way to start it. But we do want to talk about because part of what we're doing here is destigmatizing this talk around money. But we would recommend that you only do it with different employees maybe who you would call friends or you've established some trust, and also make sure that you have a good reason for asking, you know, like I wouldn't kind of go at it with So how much do you make question? Approach it maybe for from a standpoint of curiosity, this is when you know

your delivery, how you breach the topic, this is everything. Uh, you know, you could approach it from the standpoint of being concerned, maybe like seriously maybe you're night, Uh, you're were a little bit worried about how much you're getting paid versus the value that you're actually bringing the company. And obviously knowing someone else's salary would would be able to provide you some helpful knowledge when it comes to

asking for a raise in the future. And of course it's worth pointing out that you want to make sure that you keep whatever they share private and confidential. Honestly, it might even be best to kind of have the conversation off premise, not just like in the break room for everybody to hear as you as they're walking by. Maybe instead you are able to grab the beer after work. But these conversations really can help you or your coworker

make more money. It's not just about what it can do to help you out, um, but it is important to be careful with your approach and your tone as you enter into some of these conversations. Yeah, Matt, you know it's interesting. My my friend, our friend Jesse, who runs the blog in the podcast called Best Interest, he and I were just chatting on Twitter the other day.

Well he mentioned, hey, I just got a massive raise, uh, like a few months back, and he kind of mentioned that it's really it's it's been made a huge impact on his ability to invest more money. And I was like, that's awesome. How'd you do it? And so he shared some really good tips for how he did it, and one of the things I wanted us to know was, well,

how did you know you were underpaid? And he said part of it was just water cooler talk, honestly with some fellow employees, and so I think, yeah, that's the way to do it, kind of like, well, what are new employees making like you want to kind of try to get to the bottom of that in an ethical and above board way. And he was able to do that, and it made a big impact on his ability to then go to HR and say, hey, I feel like I'm not I'm not getting paid what I'm worth. I've

been here two years. People that are just starting out are getting paid as much or more than I am. And they were like, sorry, Bud, we're not paying anymore. And then he said, okay, cool, I'm gonna you know, he didn't tell them this, I don't think, but he's like, I'm gonna go hunt for jobs. And he end up getting a job offer that was more lucrative than what he was currently making. And so he went back and he was like, guys, I think I'm gonna take this job.

And they were like, well, wait a second, I'll leave. We'll pay you more. And so that is the classic, tried in true way to make more money where you work. But it does involve that difficult conversation sometimes that most of us don't want to have. But if you want to make more money, if you want to grow your salary, uh, and you want to get paid what you're worth, oftentimes

it takes having that uncomfortable conversation. And I will say, how do money etiquette rules dictate that it is okay to start that conversation if you do it the right way. That's right. All right, we've covered money conversations in general. We've talked about it within the workplace as well. After the break, we're going to dive into money conversations, money etiquette, and social situations, including dating. We'll get to all of that right after this break. All right, we're back from

the break. We're still talking about money etiquette, and we are going to get to etiquette tips. When it comes to dating, that's fraught with peril for lots of people. It's like, I don't know how do I navigate these waters? But Matt, you you have plenty of experience in that area. We were almost the bachelor on season three back in the day. Right. Uh. Yeah, I was the first Bachelor to have actually gotten voted off the island. I don't think. I think so I was a survivor. These are pretty sure.

I was married when the first started. Dog, it's really good you aren't on that show then. So but all, let's let's start. If always talk about restaurants and tipping. You know that moment when your date is waiting quietly while you figure out what the tip is going to be, Well, those are awkward situations, and it's Matt, It's very much like the way I feel at a fancy restaurant when there's three forks. I have no idea what to do. I just feel out of place. But yeah, how do

you navigate that situation? Well, like, how do you do that? Plus, like I said before, so much has changed when it comes to tipping. It seems like it's suggested to being suggested in more and more places. Everybody flips over the iPad and they they've got preset tipping amounts. And you're like, huh, what I didn't think. How don't used to tip here? And it's a little nerve racking. So um, with cash disappearing,

it's becoming more and more of a problem. We're all paying digitally and we're getting tips said guess hit at us right and left and then, which to a certain extent I appreciate because there's some folks out there who aren't as good at the math. Uh. And so for those folks, I think they're they see it as as welcome relief. But things have gotten a little out of hand. Yeah, And there's some places where there were just no tip zones before and now it's like, wait, no tip zone,

we tip here now, okay, all right. I feel like if Seinfeld was still around, they would totally do a show on you are in the no tip zone. Sorry. But and then when it comes to choosing no tip or custom tip, those boxes are like super tiny at the bottom of the screen, like they don't want you really looking there. It's like the checkbox at the bottom of the opt out email, like when you're signing up for a new product exactly. It's like the pop up on the website and you're like where is the X button?

Oh my gosh. Yeah, Like lately they've gotten even more nefarious about that, Like the designs of the background make it impossible to see. I swear I stared at one the other day that or you're just getting older, No, dude, it was it was a Spotify ad. I swear it was a Spotify ad and I go with the you know, the non premium Spotify and I could not find I was like, where the heck is the X. I'm not gonna agree to this And it was completely blended in

with the artwork in the top corner. They're being a little too sneaky about it, right, Okay, So how do we deal with kind of this newfound environment when it comes to tipping? Matt, Like, what are your some of your thoughts? Well, another thing to you, man, I'm just always curious to see what those tips suggestions are, you know, like tip creep. That's totally real. Now with a lot of businesses and restaurants changing how they serve you, I

think this changes the equation as well. So for instance, like should we still tip the same even if my my restaurant is short on servers? And like it feels like I'm basically serving myself like you basically went to Piccadilly instead of you. It's like a buffet. That's a lot different of a scenario. That's a much different experience. Even at a local ice cream place, the suggested tip amounts are twenty, which is completely ludicrous. That should be

borderline criminal, I would say for ice cream. Uh, And honestly, even at some coffee shops, you'll just see like a basic like one dollar or two dollar or three dollar amount, that kind of thing that might mean you're tipping a dent on the cup of coffee. And here, like, let's be clear, we're not trying to be cheap skates. Barista's rock. They can work really hard, but it is not a

full service, like high end dining experience. But I think because those options are being presented, it can like guilt individuals into tipping more than maybe you otherwise would have, just because you're kind of stuck right there in the moment when they're looking at you. I think if that barrista gives me three spoons to choose from to stir my cream in the coffee, I would be willing to tip more. You're gonna always reach for the golden golden spoons,

liver spoon. What're gonna do? I mean, I'll go either way. I'm not I'm not piggy, but yeah, so so what do we suggest, I guess in this new tipping environment, we would say one like Matt said, don't be a cheap skate, don't be cheap. We'd rather stay at home and eat than to eat out and to not tip.

Well that is, you know, impacting somebody else's livelihood by sitting down eating the meal, taking up their time, and then not tipping as much as you should if you can do it properly, don't do it at all, exactly, And with many small businesses still on the road to recovery because of the pandemic, purposefully opting to tip more whenever and wherever you can, is it great strategy? Like we think you should intentionally choose and try to be

more generous when it comes to tipping. When we talked about this a lot back last spring, back when all the restaurants were shutting down, it's just like, hey, make sure you're going out there and supporting your favorite restaurants because you want to make sure. Granted, this is before the ppp uh well, owning legislation went three when that

wasn't enough for was not enough, I completely agree. But getting out there getting those gift certificate, it's making sure you're tipping extra, you know, on on top of whatever your order is. We're all about that and making sure that we are being active in our communities. But at the same time, you gotta find that balance, just like you're talking about earlier with the beer. We splurers on craft beer. But at a certain point, you gotta figure

out what's reasonable for you, right. Yeah, we were even suggesting use some of that stimulus money to help your local economy, for sure, but we would say to make that choice ahead of time, and don't let those subtle tip nudges be the deciding factor in the moment, Like the iPad gets turned around in your direction and you're like, uh,

like deer in the headlights, you clinch up. Exactly, I've been there and so I realized, you know what, I have to have a plan of action and before I get to this point or I hesitate in the moment. So yeah, we would say, don't be afraid to craft your own tip amount instead of using this suggested preset tip amounts and when you kind of have like, you know what, if it's a coffee shop, I tip ten percent.

If it's this place, I tip fifteen. If it's this place, I tip or potentially even more if the service is awesome. You know, it might be worth it to have multiple categories for how much you're tipping. Those simple quick interactions, you mutant to tip LUs. For those bigger ones, For those finer dining experiences, those three FOURK restaurants, you might

want to tip more. Totally. Yeah, let's talk about eating out with friends, because this can kind of be a tough etiquette scenario that you might find yourself in because we've probably all been in the place where we're trying to maybe save a little more money than our friends are. You're like over there ordering water, one of the cheaper items on the menu, and I get the water in the cheerios please, And then there's that that that one friend who's just like, hey, let's just put the bill

down the middle. It totally sucks to be in that situation, but we feel this is an important lesson that we need to learn from because it's, like you said, it's toffer to have this conversation and after they've made that suggestion, it's tougher to make that decision after they've spun the little iPad around and it feels like you're in the hot seat. And so it might sound awkward to have this conversation about picking up your own tab ahead of that dinner out, but just being upfront about it is

going to be the winning move. Go with that, you know, the slightly awkward chat earlier instead of the really awkward one later on. And another thing too, if you are you know, and you're like, oh no, like it's just fun to split the bill, well, not everybody thinks it's fun. If you're the one making that suggestion, we would recommend for you to think through, Okay, what did everyone order?

Like did we order equivalent food or equivalent drinks? Because you want to make sure that if you are suggesting that that you're you're you're being fair. Yeah, I think another really important thing to do, Matt. You're right, have the conversation ahead of time with that friend. Hey, last time you suggested splitting the check and guess what. Here, here's here's where I'm at with money, and here's what

I'm trying to accomplish. And so for me, like, I'm totally down with going out to eat, but I'm trying to spend a whole lot less, So this time, can we just pay our own way. I think that's a great conver station have, and like really shouldn't make anybody uncomfortable,

that's understandable. I think your friend will appreciate the fact that you mentioned and that you actually kind of opened up a little bit about what's going on with your you personally, what your goals are, and you know what, you just started a money conversation right there too, which school that could lead to some more interesting combos down the road, potentially even prodding them to, yeah, ask you some questions about oh wait, wait a second, wait, you're

investing for retirement, like or people supposed to be doing that? Then uh yeah, it could be could I end up helping your friend out? Actually, in the long run, I think it's also okay to make an alternative suggestion. Your friend might have suggested a nice dinner out, but you might say, you know what, I don't even want to go out and drink water and get the cheapest thing on the menu. I'd rather just stay at home in order to reach my saving school and that's okay too,

but be honest about that as well. So maybe say, hey, my eating out budget, it's really tiny right now, I've exhausted it for the month. How about you come over for a morning coffee hang instead. Your friend might be like relief to right, because they just want to hang out with you. They might not necessarily care about the fine dining experience. They might have like a lot of respect for you that you're letting your values drive your spending decisions. And so yeah, I think it's just important

to have alternative suggestions ready. Just because that one thing they suggested didn't work out doesn't mean you can't offer up something I'll sorry, Hey, let's go for a hike on Saturday morning, Like, let's get outside for a high,

go for a walk. How about you come over here, let's la have some coffee here and then we'll go for a walk instead of us meeting at a coffee shop, especially if like you make good coffee, Like I don't necessarily that kind of go French press, and I think it takes fine, but like I don't know my French press. My standards aren't high. But yeah, if you make like good pour over coffee or something your friend might be excited to come over and like, oh, give me some

of that arrow press, right, yeah, it taste your stuff. Okay, So what's funny is that Kate and I are literally we we literally just did this. We are going to be having dinner with some a couple. They're college friends of ours, and we invited them over to our house before we're gonna and this is gonna happen tomorrow. Uh, and we're gonna have a drink at the house before we go to dinner. Uh. And it's for us, it's

kind of less about being super frugal. The fact is four drinks at home is going to be a fraction of the cost of actually going out and all of us getting a cocktail while we're out. But then again, it comes down to the conversation how we're going to

split the actual dinner bill. And I feel like we know them enough well enough to like I'm going to be the one probably to suggest that let's just play it down the middle, but just you know, given the conversation that we're having right now, like I am instead going instead of like suggesting it, I'm gonna maybe ask it and be like, hey, yeah, cool, if we just split it down the middle, because I think the act of asking rather than suggesting even that right there, can

kind of open the conversation up to where someone feels a little less pressure to just go along with it, as opposed to being like, well, actually, do you mind if we kind of separate out where you know, maybe we're maybe they would say that they're on a budget regardless, you kind of want to set the table for just a nice, healthy conversation. I thought your classic move was when the bill came to go to the restroom for

an extended period of time, maybe out the window. You've never actually done that, right, I'll cost you A friend keep saying it's almost like like, I mean, you say it with much confidence, uh, and it sounds like almost experience. No, I never pulled that one. Uh, never done the dining dash. Never done that to a friend either, And that's that would be the opposite of etiquette, So that would be cheap.

Don't do that, all right, Let's let's talk to you mad about just kind of other maybe money things that pop up. This one is something that we've experienced as parents. Let's say, like, what's the etiquette surrounding contributing to a gift for a teacher at like your kids school. I mean, I feel like, similarly to planning ahead, you have to make sure you have room in the budget for stuff like that, and you have to know that those quote

unquote unexpected expenses are going to happen, right. I think it's it's easy to get blindsided and say, wait, I don't I don't have money for that, like and you didn't know it was coming. But really, those are the things that we shouldn't cheap out on, and we should give something towards. And like, I think just setting aside something to the tune of twenty bucks a month for requests like teacher um or other things in that similar

vein is a good idea. And I think that takes a whole lot of stress out of these requests for money, because yeah, they don't really come out of left field, even though we feel like they do. So playing ahead for them, give accordingly instead of like getting that stress ulcer every time that email comes through and you're like, I am I supposed to give money that now I'm

supposed to do. And even just something simple like for instance, my son's school, he's too he's going to school a few days a week and they had a pumpkin patch and we took the time one to go volunteer and help set it up. But then we're gonna buy an overpriced pumpkin there because of the good that that money does. Like I could go to Aldi and give me a five dollar pumpkin, but I would rather spend the extra money. And this money goes to literally benefit his school and

refugee families. And I'm like, I'm not cheating out of the pumpkin, Like, of course I'm putting my money there, but I have budgeted money for these kinds of purposes. And really that's what it takes so that you're not like, yeah, getting freaked out every time you get asked for money

or something like this. Yeah, that doesn't mean that you should feel compelled to give to everything, right, Like, I think one of the other etiquette conundrums is when people ask for money in the moment, and even if it's not to our faces. Right. I'm talking about the rise of go fund me's online that you might see on social media. See them on Facebook, for instance, if someone has a birthday coming up, they might be raising money

for a cause that they care about. But that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to be giving to that particular organization. Man, I see it all the time now, and I'm like, sorry, it doesn't mean I don't love you, and it doesn't mean I don't wish you a happy birthday. But there's I'm not contributing to pay well, and I

don't feel guilted into that. Like. It also makes me think of two like giving money like in the grocery store checkoutline, that that is not something I participate in because almost all of my giving is pre planned, uh, and it is funneled towards the organization that I know and that I love. So this is an example where I think we believe it's better to be proactive and intentional with our giving rather than being you know, passive and casual about it. We don't want you to be cheap.

Do give your money, but just make sure instead that you're taking the time to look up and read search charities. And you can do that via a site like Charity Navigator. That's a fantastic site that we've mentioned multiple times here on the show, where you can go online, you can look up the different organizations, you can see how much of the money that you give to give to them, how much of it goes towards expenses, how much of

it actually goes towards the cause exactly. But you got I mean, but kind of going back to what you said, Jill, you kind of have to find that balance between being intentional and proactive. I feel like this is a perfect example of you and me, because I feel like you're a little more you know, a little going, you know, shooting, shooting from the hip a little bit um, whereas I'm

like overly structured and or you know, organized. But at the same time, I feel like I do need to allow some margin in my life when it comes to maybe something like a over price pumpkin. Yeah, I have to be okay with that. I think there's like a difference in how I feel too when I give to something spur of the moment, usually like and I don't mind setting So I think it's okay to set aside in your budget some money for spur of the moment

gifts if that's your thing. But for me, at least, they provide a really small, like feeling that I've done something good for a really short period of time. But when I have pre planned my giving, and I give it consistently to the organizations I already know and love and am connected to the work they're doing. That feeling the way I feel about where my money is going, it lasts longer and uh and so yeah, it really it's up to each individual how they want to give

their money. But just be prepared in advance, know that you're going to get maybe asked at the grocery store, and be comfortable, like, you're not a cheap skate. You're not a bad person if you decide not to give in the moment consistently, Like if you always say no to that, that doesn't make you a bad person. If you feel like you're being generous, there you go with your money overall total. And let's talk about generosity, Matt, when it comes to like giving or a gift giving

with family and friends. We are in October, and so people are planning for the holidays and there, um, if not, you should be because of shipping delays exactly. We talked about that a while back. You should be, yeah, actively looking to buy your Christmas presents now, not waiting till at the last minute because of some of those Yeah, shipping delays leading to product shortages. But this is really

another uncomfortable spot that a lot of people find themselves in. Uh. And yeah, they're bound to be some awkward moments for lots of families who haven't communicated expectations well around holiday gift giving. And this is just another instance where it makes the most sense to get ahead of things and to clearly let your family know that one you love them, and to that maybe you're also working really hard to

finally destroy your student loans. Can once and for all you can do both of those things at the same time. I can love you and destroy my student loans, but that doesn't the means I also, I'm not going to buy you a fifty dollar gifts and that doesn't mean that's going to destroy our relationship because we're talking about it exactly, And that's really what it comes down to, right Like, maybe instead of giving those expensive gifts this year up to exchange time spent together or do some

sort of secret Santa. But those are the conversations you probably want to start having now. You want to communicate the expectations, just like you're planning ahead in your budget, plan ahead and communicate well with your family so that you don't show up on Christmas morning or whatever it is and you've got nothing in hand, and you're like, well,

I'm saving money, guys exactly, don't you get it? But if you talk about that and open up those lines of communication far in advance, it's less of a shock. It feels less like you just didn't you just weren't thoughtful, and it feels more like, wait, they're being intentional here. We want to help them, support support them in that goal. Yeah. So on the note of gift giving, another real quick one here, what are your thoughts as far as the

etiquette surrounding giving money as a gift? Uh? And as you think about this, I'll say, as a half Korean who has received my fair share of money, just straight up cash gifts from my mom's friends, fully Korean, I feel like it's maybe more of an Asian thing. But like, dude, like, as a practical guy that likes to talk about money, welcome cash the you know, like for like one of our kids, like when they're born, like when a baby is born, or for a wedding, It's easy for me

to lash onto practical little side of that. But what are your thoughts on that? Okay, So I think money is actually a better etiquette move than giving a gift card. And that's really I do. And I think it feels the opposite because a gift card feels more specific, it feels like a little bit. I know you like this store, so go buy yourself something night, but you get to pick something from that store. I'm not going to order

you a meal. That's too personal. But when you look at the stats and you see the amount of money that goes unspent on gift cards each year, people get gift cards, they get tossed in the drawer, they never get spent. But do you ever not spend a hundred dollar bill that comes into your into your life or a fifty dollar bill. Yeah, it's cash, you're gonna spend it.

So I think from that aspect, like I think the better etiquette is to give cash, and I think we can like bring less stigma around that and start giving cash more. I think the thing is to include a note that that is thoughtful and I says, hey, I know you and I know that this is something you like, and I don't know what you're gonna spend it on, maybe this, this or this, But yeah, I think that helps make it feel a little more personal and a little less like you just didn't know what they like,

what they care about. Right. I like that, dude, I like that a lot. I think you could even include some stats about the percentage of gift cards that go on untapped. Yeah, just to convince them that you made the right This guy's a total do we a total nerd. But that is how we roll. All Right, we're gonna take a quick break, but after the break, we're finally going to get to talking about money and relationships. When it comes to dating, we'll get to that right after this. Okay,

we're back. We're going to get to dating and marriage in just a second, I promise. But first I wanted to talk about we we just talked about gift giving. Let's talk about lending money to family and friends, because that is another zone of money that it's fraught with peril. And it's like, well, that's the etiquette there when someone

I love asks me for money. So we would suggest to really try at all costs to avoid being the borrower or the lender in this scenario whenever possible, And if you're the one borrowing money from a friend, pay them back as soon as possible, or at least when you say you're going to. If you're like, hey, I'm gonna get paid two weeks from now, I promise that hunter Bucks is hitting you back, hit you up at

the end of the month, exactly. Friendships can easily get damaged if you don't, and if you're the one who's lending the money. It's also helpful to not think of it as a loan. So if your friend comes to you and says, hey, let me can I can I borrow Hunter Bucks and you say yes, don't expect to get paid back. Think of it as a gift that you're making to the person that you care about instead, and if you somehow get paid back, it's icing on

the cake. Because if you don't view it that way and that person, uh, this abuses your trust and doesn't pay you back in a timely fashion, it's gonna be frustrating and it could cause damage to the relationship. But if you mentally are thinking of it like, you know what, I'm gonna give them some money, it's no big deal.

If I don't give this money back and then, and also, don't lend any money that you can't afford to lend if you can't afford it, just be honest and say, listen, I don't have the money to give you right now. I love you, but how else can I help you out? Yes? I love that so much, dude. This also makes me think of co signing because this is kind of another form of lending your You're lending your good name, you're lending your credit to somebody, and even in parents in

child relationships, it can become a source of contention. And so if someone wants you to help them to buy a car, for instance, with your good credit, like this is probably going to be a bad idea for you. When you co sign, you are telling the lender that

you are going to be good for the money. Uh. And so instead, we would recommend that you kind of maybe see that ask from that individual as kind of the perfect way to start a conversation about how they're handling their money, like what is it that they can actually afford? Hopefully that can lead to I mean, if they feel comfortable enough asking you to co sign, hopefully

they're open enough to handle some additional conversations about money. Right. Yeah, it's like, hey, mom, dad, can you help me co sign for this brand? New Hanta Civic and it's like, wait, slow down there, let's let's let's see you know what I'm unwilling to do that. How much money do you have on hand? Can I help you purchase a used one and find the right used card that's gonna cost you a whole lot less? Like that opens up a

gateway for a better conversation. And I do think I mean that parent child relationship it is a little bit different, like like there's I feel like there is a gray area here, especially if you have an adult child who maybe doesn't have a credit score and they're asking you essentially like you know that they're good for it, you know that they are incredibly responsible, but you just want to make sure that you've had these conversations with them

ahead of time. You want to make sure that they are open to sitting down periodically and taking a look at how those payments are going. That type of thing. Uh, in real quick to joll there's actually another kind of awkward situation regarding the parent child thing. What are your thoughts when it comes to adult children who are also hanging out with their parents who are presumably adults, right, But like, when you get to that point to where the child starts to pay their own way for things,

like saying you're gonna go out. You're in a situation where you can you can both afford things. But it's kind of like, all right, do we revert back to the mom and dad take care of everything kind of mindset? Are like, where do you think that line is? That's

a really good question. I think it depends on both financial situations of both individuals, and I think as a parent, like, that's what I want to do for my kids at some point, once they've proven that they're responsible with money, like once they get get out on their own, once they have a solid job earning their own income. Once I'm like, Okay, they know what they're doing. I want to treat them in that way. But if it's one of those things where they keep coming back to the well,

then I'm gonna be less enthusiastic. I think about, you know, paying for paying for dinner or paying for anything for them totally. Yeah. Like I think as a parent, like, as I see many kids get older, I mean, and we're like we're like that gates from this, But I'm trying to imagine what this would feel like. And I think I would want them to show some initiative, you know, like like say they're gonna come back home to visit. Uh,

They've got a solid, you know, decent paying job. I'm I'm not expecting them to like pay a certain thing, but like for them just to be like, hey, you wanted to pick up any groceries on the on the way back to the house for the weekend, Like that kind of thing that goes a long way and making you want to them. Yeah. And I feel the same thing like with my parents, Like they they're in the place now where they offer to buy things, but then I different things too, Like my parents they still do that.

They came around and stayed in the beach house that we rented this past summer, and they were like, hey, can we pay for some of it? And I'm like, no way, Like this is my treat and it felt really good to do that. But then other times they'll pick up the tab at the restaurant when we're all

go out, and it's like that's super sweet. It kind of depends on the situation, right, Like if you had like a few years of just really tough times at a job, maybe that you hated for them to have offered that would have not only been incredibly generous, but maybe welcome on your on your part. So I think a lot of it does kind of come down to the individual relationship with with you and your parents exactly, timing circumstances, that all that, that all really matters. Let's

talk Matt about like more intense relationships. Welln't that more intense but more romantic? More romantic. Yeah, and we're gonna get into marriage too, But let's talk about dating for

a second. And it can be really hard to know what the etiquette should be like when it comes to dating, and Matt, we just to be honest, we've been out of the dating world for quite a while at this point in time, you for like what fourteen fifteen years or fifteen years and me for eleven twelve years, and so we would suggest getting the uncomfortable stuff out of the way upfront. It's again, it's so much more awkward after the bill comes to talk about who is paying

for what? And if you asked someone out, if you said, hey, I like you, can I take you out to eat or to wherever, offer to pay for the meal. That might sound old school, but it's our opinion that if you like someone enough to ask him out on a date and you plan something cool, then you pay for it. And of course it doesn't have to be fancy. I mean, it probably can't be McDonald's, but it certainly doesn't have to be the three fork restaurants, but more between three

forks and plastic forks. Right, And if you don't have boatloads of dough for dating though, that's okay too. You could still date people. And so yeah, we would say, offer to pick up that love interest in your fancy like two Honda Kord or whatever it is, and then go for a hike. But yeah, or maybe meat for a picnic in a cool park on a beautiful day. You really don't need big money to wow someone who

you've got a crush on. Sometimes sweet and Goofy goes a lot further, and just putting your actual foot forward like who you are, as opposed to putting like you forward, making it seem like you've got it all together. I think sometimes people appreciate that. Most of the time, people appreciate that authenticity, even if it doesn't seem like that's what's going to be received. All seems like you're putting a whole lot of stock in the sweet and goofy guy.

That's all I got. Someone's like talking to their their friends, they're like, well, downside he's he's broke, he doesn't make a lot of money, but on the up side, he's really sweet and goofy. And you know, we we feel that if like you're more or less like the one who's being treated to a date, like, definitely don't be the person who orders like the most expensive thing on the menu and then also like the second, third, fourth

glass of wine. Uh. Instead, you know, be respectful, take the lead of the person who you're on the date with. That certainly feels like the respectful kind of path to take, at least for in my opinion. One other thing, I think it can be kind of sweet to offer to go Dutch as well, where you you're both paying your way.

But you know, bottom line, we don't need to be the ones here to to tell you that virtually everything you do and say feels like it's under kind of like the the dating microscope when you're out on a date, right, But it is true that there are counless decisions that communicates something specifically your thoughts on money to a date.

While you're out on a date, and if you're the one ordering that fourth glass of wine, well, whether you realize it or not, you are communicating something to them, and so you just want to make sure that you are sending the right signals. Yeah, and it goes both ways too, because if you are crushing on somebody and you've initiated multiple dates and you show up to every one of them with like a gift every time, it's

like flowers. Yeah, yeah, and I like care, I'm all about giving my wife gifts, bringing flower some stuff like that. You've talked about your tulips, but especially as you're getting to know somebody, um, and you don't know that very well. If you're bringing something fancy every single time, it starts getting out of hand. Yeah, you're communicating that you're a big spender, whether or not you have your finances in

shape and a more frugal receiver of these gifts. They might not be used to you know what, these lavish gifts that you're bestowing, And that's okay. But if that's something that matters to you and you know, hopefully you have your money game together, that's okay, go for it. But more than anything else, just make sure that you're being yourself. I think sometimes in the dating world it's easy to get caught up in spending more money than

you feel comfortable doing. And you know, if you're actually trying to find like a life partner, that's not really what you're going for. You want them to kind of recognize who you are, corks and all and somebody. I promise somebody will love you for for those for those things. You don't have to put on a front to win somebody over. Sure. Yeah. So on a related note, we actually had a listener who emailed recently about dating etiquette and they wanted to know about using a coupon on

a on a date. So Joel, Yeah, what is your money etiquette meter say in regards to that, Okay, I don't want to date anybody or like be married to anybody who isn't cool with me using a pupon right, So, like, we likely you found the right person, right. So we we regularly get these like mailers every month, and one of our favorite restaurant almost always has a coupon in there.

It's right around the corner. It's a nice restaurant too, It's like a two fourth place and uh, it's so I'm I'm totally going to use the coupon if I've got it, and you know what, it's a nice place to eat out. And I think if you feel shame in the coupon game because of what someone else might think, then you need to get over it, because if they're gonna if you're a coupon type of person used to coupon, and if the person that you're going on a date with isn't down with that, I think, um, maybe it

wasn't meant to be. And again, like each one of these decisions is like, these are instances where you're communicating to your your date, to your partner where you stand. Uh, and yeah, if you are all about coupons, you want to make sure that you've got somebody who can join you on the coupon filled future. All right, Joe, let's take it to the next level. Let's talk about kind of like want to clarify I'm not a crazy extreme cupon Okay, Now, honestly, I think this is like the

only time in your life when you do use coupons. Right, It's very rare that I actually use coupons, But I mean, if I get one and it's a place that I love. I'm going to use it. All. Right, let's talk about marriage. Let's take it to the next level. There's this term that's kind of gotten more popular in recent years, and that phrase is getting financially naked. Have you you've heard,

you know, we've talked about this. For sure. Once you've progressed beyond the dating phase, you're considering spending maybe some serious amount of time with an individual, maybe you're thinking about getting married, then it is time to get naked financially speaking. And that's because we feel that relationships that are going to endure, uh, they have a foundation of honesty,

Like they are based on transparency and honesty. And so, man, this is the period of time that, yes, it's important to understand how your partner communicates, and yes it is important to be respectful. But man, I feel that all etiquett kind of goes out the window at this point in time. It's about kind of stripping it down to the numbers. Uh, there's no hiding at this point in

your relationship. You know what I'm saying. Yeah, you don't want to necessarily do this on the first date, right, No, No, no, of course, not like Hey, what's your name again? By the way, here's my credit score and the amount of dat I mean it. Uh, that's that's a bad time to be a little too forward, just like other ways. You could be more forward with a date, right, but you've been dating for eight or nine months and you've talked about getting serious and marriages maybe even on the

radar whatever. That's when you do want to start sharing some of these things. You don't want to hide, even your financial mistakes. And you know what, even those mistakes probably have bread some better habits, right, we all learn from those mistakes. So it's important to yea even in that conversation, say, you know what, here's almost student loan debt. But um guess what I'm gonn listening to this podcast. I'm getting better with my money. And that's a good

spur for a conversation. And you being open is going to make them feel more comfortable being open to and that's a good thing because yeah, who doesn't want to someone to love them warts and all. Like that's what we always say, you know, we want someone to love all of us and then richer for poor baby, and

then we hide a lot of who we are. Oftentimes and yeah, you don't want to continue down the path of a relationship if it feels superficial, because yeah, beyond this point, you're committed to each other and you know that your partner's problems are going to become your problems when you tie the knot, And so you want to

know what you're actually getting into. And if this is a topic you've managed to avoid so far, let's say you have been dating someone seriously for quite a while, maybe waiting into those waters with a conversation talking about employer benefits in four oh one case is the way to go, Like, ease on into it, don't like immediately jumped to like how much debt do you have? Right? Yeah, and you you can start easy. You can start simple, get more comfortable as you go, getting a little bit deeper.

But it's time, like if you are getting serious with somebody, you gotta know their financial standing and you've gotta be honest about yours too, one man, you know, like, honestly, the more financial secure I get, the more I get

excited about being generous. And that's not something we're really talking a whole lot here, but it's like I've become more likely to pick up that breakfast check with a friend when we go out, or maybe even kind of tipping more than I usually would, And I think that's pretty cool, Like it's it's it's where I want to see my money and going. But realize that, like I know that not everyone is in that position, and that's

kind of what we're talking about here today. You know, when you're talking with your friends, it can be tough to hit all the right notes on the money etiquette front.

But hopefully we feel that this episode will we'll give you a little more confidence to maybe suggest something more affordable when you're making plans with your friends, or you know, to create that custom tip amount for maybe a little bit less than the suggested amount, or maybe this will encourage you to talk about money a bit more freely, just in general and definitely upfront. Communication is going to

be key when your etiquette moves involve others. We're all likely gonna kind of come down on different sides of the issue based on our individual circumstances. And here's the thing that is okay, Like that is the thing that makes each of us unique, that makes each of us our own. But when it comes to our friends or our romantic partners. You want to make sure that you're having open and clear conversations about these things, uh, and

that you're not afraid to talk about it. Right. If I had warm buffet money, I'd probably tip five dollars on every coffee I got, and no matter what, on every meal I ate out right. So you know, as you reach different levels of financial fitness financial independence, you can be if you want, more generous with that money

that's coming into your life. But I think to some of these norms, Matt, like you said about choosing your own tip amount, like that, those norms are worth break, king, it's uh, And these are some of these are barely established, not even new norms, and so why are we holding to them? Like we're gonna be booted out of civilized society if if we don't, you know, and the the you're not welcome here anymore? Right, And the norms for for so many people is to be in debt up

to their eyeballs because they are they're buying everything. They're being um generous with money they don't even have sometimes and you know, you and I were all about living differently, being even a little weird. Sometimes, Um, you don't want

to necessarily needlessly ruffle feathers. But we think that there are ways for you to handle your money well, to have solid etiquette, but not necessarily doing what everyone else around you is doing, and ultimately communicate well, be honest, be honest with yourself, and be honest with the people around you. I think if you are doing those things, if you're being authentically you, then you're gonna come out okay.

But Matt, let's come back to the beer. This is a collaboration beer by Burial up there in Asheville, North Carolina, one of our favorites, A fantastic New England style I P A and I was I feel like I picked up on some kind of like tropical, some sort of fruit vibes which you oftentimes don't get with the New England style I P A and I was happy to see that on the label it talked about some freeze dried New Zealand savignon blanc skins, and so I'm kind

of like, oh, okay, maybe that's where some of the maybe slightly more fruity notes came from. But it lent it this brightness, uh that I appreciated and that you oftentimes don't find with the New England I p A. Yeah, it also had some hops from New Zealand as well in this beer, and I feel like some of those hops from like literally the other side of the planet have some really interesting flavor. Some of the coolest I pas I've had have had like Australian or New Zealand hops,

and so this was a really good beer. I don't know what they're doing differently when it comes to hops down there. Maybe they can just grow stuff that we can't appear in the States. But yeah, this was a really good beer. And really, anytime Barrel makes a beer, I'm down to try it down there in New Zealand, they the hops grow count of clockwise stuff clockwise, right, they grow like down into the ground like carrots. Yeah, I'm glad you know I got to each into way

one of these beers during this episode. And we will make sure to share a picture of this beer, as well as any other additional resources or links that we may may have mentioned during this episode up on our website at how to Money dot com. Yeah, and of course, Matt and I, we appreciate you listening, especially to the very end of the episode like this, right, Yeah, I mean, we wouldn't be anywhere without the kind folks, the awesome folks at least, the people we've met that listen, and

the how the money crowd is a special crowd. So thanks for thanks for always being there for the show. And yeah, we hope you have a great rest of your day. So Matt, that's gonna do it. Until next time. Best friends Out, Best Friends Out,