Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking from poverty to prosperity with Amanda from She Wolf of Wall Street. That's right.
Yeah, So, without completely giving away her story, Amanda was born into, in her words, extreme poverty. And so what I mean by that is like, not I had a rough month after college, so I slepped in my car, but more like begging for food at gas station like poverty. Not that she's trying to like win the Poverty Olympics
or anything like that, anything that anybody should do. But now she helps thousands of families create debt payoff strategies, she helps them to budget, she helps them to invest, and she's better known as She Wolf of Wall Street. She has a self taught financial educator who's built a community of over three hundred thousand folks. Amanda, She's all over Instagram helping individuals a chief financial freedom. But how
did she actually do it? We introduced one extreme and then we introduced another extreme, Like what happened between those two polar opposites, And so we're excited for her to share her story, her different achievements and how she was able to cross from one end of the financial spectrum to the other. Amanda Wolf, thank you for joining us today on the podcast.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
We're glad to have you, Amanda. First question we ask everybody who comes on the show is what do you like to splour John, Because Matt and I we spend more than some people think is reasonable on craft beer, but hey, we like it and it's something we prioritize in our budgets, but we're also saving investing for the future. So what is that splurge in your life?
Ah?
So for me, I would say it's definitely travel, but I want to take it another layer beyond that, because I do think that you can travel on a budget if you're real careful. But for me, it's definitely staying in nicer hotels, places with really good, comfortable beds, because I've realized over the years. You know, like when you're in your early twenties it might not matter as much, but as you get a little bit older, your sleep on a trip can make or break it.
So just somewhere where I'm like very comfortable in.
A cozy bed, I would say that's the thing I splurge on specifically when I travel nice.
I went backpacking recently slept on the cold, hard ground. It was still a great trip, but you're right, the worst part was the sleep sleep.
Yes, like go camp. If you want to do that, you go do you boo. But for me, I want a cozy bed and a good time.
Next time, I want a yurf with like a with a nice queen bed or hit.
While Joel was sleeping on the cold hard earth, actually you did have a blow up little mattress. It was less cold, less hard. But my wife and I want a similar but very different trip where we got to sleep in California, king for the first time. Not to brag, Jewel, I slept wonderfully.
It's okay, yeah, yeah, you know, like I could, I could do a really long hike, like all day, but I don't want to then go end on the ground.
Yes, you know, okay a shower Kate and I, yeah, we could go hiking with y'all. That's how we like to roll as well. And so in the little intro I mentioned that just kind of how you're all over social media. You've got something like three hundred thousand plus followers on Instagram.
Do you ever take thirty thousand?
You know, who knows teaching folks the ins and outs about money? And I feel like social media money information it can be kind of hit or miss. That being said, you auditioned out the good stuff. I'm curious to know how that got started. Well, I'm curious too if you ever thought that you would be. I don't know if you consider yourself an influencer or not, but essentially that's what you are, and you are teaching folks, you know, how they should be handling their money on Instagram? So
how did that happen? Did you ever think that you'd be able to make a living, or at least part of a living by doing this?
Yeah, I mean I would say I'm as much of an influencer as you guys. Do you guys consider yourselves influencers tattoo?
We're not socials as much.
I don't know.
I feel like podcasters are a different breed, you know, like people don't show our faces all that off.
Okay, okay, yeah, so I guess a finfluencer. And no, I definitely didn't think I would ever be doing something like that. I don't particularly love attention, so I guess it feels a little different since you're kind of still behind, you know, a computer or a screen a lot of the time. But I'm naturally a little bit more of an introvert, so having a bunch of strangers know who I am it was definitely not something I probably would
have anticipated. But to answer your other question of how I got started, essentially, money has always been a really big part of my life, a really big part of my story and upbringing, and I, you know, learned a lot of this stuff just on my own over the years and just kind of assumed that other people had learned this stuff from their parents or somewhere else. And you know, obviously I didn't get I didn't get that opportunity.
So I was talking with one of my friends, helping her out with some of her money stuff, and she was like, you're really good at this. You should teach other people how to do it. And I was like, you know, I've been thinking about it.
That would be really cool.
I even had a little Instagram name picked out, but I don't know, I feel like people will make fun of me.
And she was like, who do you think is going to make fun of you? And I said, I don't know my friends. She was like, she's like, well, then you're not. They're not your friends.
If your friends make fun of you for trying to do something, you know, that interest you, or trying to teach people something, then they're not your friends. Let's look up the handle right now, see if it's available. And she took my phone from me, looked it up on Instagram. She's like, she will fall Street. Yes, it's available. This is a sign you're going to start posting and just and just put it out there. So that's kind of
like how I got started, just over that hump. But it was something that was just really interesting to me for years and years, something I'd been teaching my you know, my friends, colleagues. At my last company, I had built a personal finance course and a corporate finance course. Uh within my ERG that I led, Like seven hundred people took it within the first couple of weeks, I know, and I was like, why the heck did I build
that for everybody else for that company for free? So yeah, it was kind of like there had always just been this little nagging thing in the back of my mind, and then finally it was just my friend helping push me over that hump of just insecurity to actually start the page.
But I never thought it would grow to what it is today.
Yeah, best friends can be incredibly motivating, or good friends can be Matt and I know this, you know, motivating each other to start this podcast. I mean, I'm curious you mentioned kind of starting that personal finance class four hundreds of your coworkers. Are you still working like because you've grown she Wolf of Wall Street to be something incredibly large and impactful? Are you? Are you still doing having? Do you have a forty hour week job in addition to it?
You know what I actually do?
Wow?
I know, I know is probably the.
Trauma that's making me hold on to it. But I like the idea of a consistent paycheck because, as you know, the freelancer.
Life can be really to ultuous.
So having income be like so up and down month to month makes me a little angsty. And you know, originally I told myself, Okay, you know, most businesses fail within the first you know, the first couple of years, So if I can get through that, then you know, I'll quit the nine to five. But honestly, I've reached I've reached past that point.
Now.
But honestly, at this point, I've found that it's not it's not impossible to.
Manage.
It hasn't gotten to a point where I feel super burned out or anything. I'm just I try to be.
Really smart with my time. But yeah, I am. I am still holding on to the nine to five.
That's impressive, very impressive. Okay, So you mentioned the trauma and you joke about it now, but I mean, we would love for you to actually share about that because before you became one of the biggest influencers out there in existence, you had a pretty hard upbringing. And I've heard you say that money was your first memory, and not necessarily in a good way. Can you share your story with us?
Sure? Yeah.
So for me, I grew up in poverty, and it's not to your point in the beginning. You know, it's not like I just didn't get to go to Disneyland.
It's my parents were both addicted to really hard drugs growing up, so I went without a lot of my basic necessities, you know, begging for food from grocery stores and gas stations for my brother and me, wearing the same clothes to school every day, and was just really bullied growing up, and whenever I would ask my mom, you know, like why can't I get new clothes or why can't I have a bed to sleep in things like that, she would always just say, because it costs money.
We don't have money for those things.
And so like for me, that those are some of my like just first memories ever in my life is just not having money for things.
So when I was.
Really little, I was just like, Okay, I have to figure out a way to get money. It seems like that seems to be the answer to all of my problems. So I thought, Okay, I just need to be really smart because smart people have money. So I need to do really good in school. If I do really good in school, I'll get a good job, and I have a good job, then I'll have money for all of
those things when I'm older. And so you know, that was my like five year old, six year old, seven year old brain was just reading like every book I could get my hands on, trying to be the best in school, just doing everything I could to become smarter so that I would have a way to get money when I'm older. Was always like the goal when I was younger, So that those are some of my very first memories as it relates to money.
And then in what you're describing, we're not just talking about a lack of money, right, We're also talking a lot And this is like crucial in so many ways, Like, Hey, you can have a lack of money, but man, if you've got this amazing home life where your parents are encouraging you, helping with your homework, not struggling with addiction, it's a lot easier to make progress on some of
those things. So how do you feel, like those the other spots in your home life that were difficult, how were they impacting your ability to get to the places you wanted to go?
Oh gosh, I mean I would say it impacted it a lot because we moved around a lot, didn't have like a stable home, So I switched schools a lot too. I went to three schools just for sixth grade alone. I think I went to like twelve schools within just a few years. So moving around all the time and like picking up in the middle of whereever you are in a different lesson plan, especially when you're really really young, is tough. But I think because I didn't have a
lot of attention at home. I was pretty disciplined myself. So I just got to the point where I'm like, Okay, well I can catch up. I'll get whatever you know book. I'll like if I'm changing schools again, I'll go to the teacher. I want to learn everything that they learned this year already. I'm going to take it home and
study it as much as I can. So I think that that was that was a lot of It was a lot of just discipline on my side because I knew that the life I was in, I knew that I didn't want to be like that when.
I was older.
That's incredibly impressive, especially you said sixth grade, and Joel and I we both have both of our oldest daughters are in sixth grade. So I can only imagine how difficult that would be. And I remember my my self as a sixth grader and with incredibly hard.
I was an idiot, like truly, and so yeah, to see how you responded to some of that ever admirable at that young in age, I don't. Yeah, so its hard.
Like academically, it sounds like maybe that's how you're able to pull it off, But what about like financially, because you went to college. So how did that all come together? Given that maybe you were driven from an academic standpoint, you connected the dots, but then, yeah, tell us the rest of your education story.
Yeah.
So I was the first person in my family to go to college, but I knew that I had to get there because I knew that I had to get out of my situation. So I was good friends with a couple of people in high school who were going on college visits, and I'd be like, can you ask your mom or dad like if I can come with you? So I would go on college visits and just tag along on their family trips. Wow, with lots of my
different friends. Most of their parents kind of knew, like something's not great with amanda situation, so sure she can come along.
So I kind of just tagged along.
And I would look at my friends who had who seemed like they had a good home life, like maybe they had a big house or their parents did you know whatever when you're young, whatever you think that like having money means. And I would just be like, okay, well you know, what are what is.
Girl A doing? I don't want to save their names, like like what is she doing? Oh? Okay?
So it seems like she's taking ACT prep classes. Well, I can't do that, so let me go to the library because they're expensive, So let me go to the library and see when I need to learn.
Oh, she's going to go visit college.
Well, okay, I don't have a ride there, so maybe I can tag along.
So it was me just trying to emulate.
What other people who had successful families in my mind were doing and just kind of trying to follow that route. And then you know, taking the ACT, applying to colleges, Like.
What colleges are you applying to? How do you even do that?
Okay, I'm just gonna literally do whatever they're doing. Got accepted to the University of Illinois, and then that's when I went off to college, and I would say that my entire world opened up because I got to see not just leave the baggage behind from where I came, but I just got exposed to a complaint completely different network of people. I got to see how other people were living, and to just not have the same type of stress that I did in my younger years was huge.
So I would say it was a pretty even though I you know, I took out college loans, and I had a lot of grants for college. You know, it was still to me it was worth the loans. I got to really become the person who I am today.
So one of the things that strikes me about kind of how you seem to react to things is that your boldness and your persistence and how if there's something you're not quite sure like, you find a way to figure it out. Which and that's it seems to be the case with how you learned about personal finance too, which I want to talk about, but I think that's like so important. What made you start to ask those questions?
Were you just like, there's no way I can live the life, continue to live the life I've been living. I've got to do something different, and the only way to get there is through kind of humility and starting to ask some of those questions for the things that nobody really taught me.
Absolutely so I was not particularly shy and U to you to your point, I knew that the way I was living, I did not want to continue to live like that.
I was like, I can't, I cannot do this.
I was just around like a lot of really bad people, and they would always tell me, uh, you know, you're you know, kids who grow up with addicts end up becoming addicts. Like, I wouldn't wish this upon my worst enemy. You know, you got to stay away from this stuff. And for me, I was like, I don't want to touch any of that stuff anyway, But how do I get out of this situation? So it was just like education, education, How am I going to get educated?
How am I going to learn? What can I do? So it was just like the driving force behind behind everything.
Yeah. One of the things you learned about, obviously was handling your money well, because after college you got your your first job, your first real job, and then you went on a mission to learn everything possible about personal finances, yes, specifically or filing your taxes in touch.
Which is an education in and of itself.
It's always eye opening for everyone out there. But talk to us about your early twenties and you know what sort of changes did you make as you kind of entered into adulthood and were in charge of your own finances? Uh?
Yeah, realized the system is a lie.
You don't just graduate college, get a great job, and then have money for everything you want in life.
That is how that works. Yeah, So anybody else about to graduate college.
If you're listening to this, get ready, because that is unfortunately not the way the cookie crumbles. So when I graduated college, at this point, I'm like, great, got a job. This is super exciting. Fast forward like a few months later and I'm like, wait a minute, why do I still not have any money? What is going on? Like, I have these college loans and I'm gonna to start
paying really soon. I have some credit card debt. I'm paying one of these amounts, but there's like several different amounts listed on the bill, and I don't really get what I'm looking at. You know, why am I still living paycheck to paycheck? And to your point, it was, Yeah, after my first full year of working, I would say that it was a really big reality check because I realized that I had made you know, about seventy seven thousand dollars, and because I was in a sales role,
so I got bonuses throughout. So it's one of those things where you kind of don't realize how much you're making because it's more than just your you know, a regular paycheck every two weeks. So I got that plus bonuses, and I made seventy seven thousand dollars after my first year, and I didn't know until I got my text turn and I was like, what the heck is going on? This is the most money I've ever been exposed to in my entire life. And this was like twenty ten money.
So yeah, let's go ahead and figure out what that number is. But yeah, just for inflation is way more. But I'm like, this is the most money I've ever been exposed to. Why do I still not have any of it? Like my credit card amount still hasn't lowered. I still owe tons of money on uh my student loans. And that's when I decided, Okay, I've got to learn how money works. I apparently don't understand how this stuff works. And so I literally I called Chase Bank my credit card.
I was like, can you explain what is current balance? What is statement balance?
Like?
What does minimum ount do? What are all these things?
She explained it to me, and I'm like, Okay, that's why I'm paying fees every month because I am not paying the statement balance.
Got it.
Then I was like, what is this four oh one k? I'm like putting money into this guy John in my training class. When I first got hired was like, make sure you put you know, at least five percent into your four oh one k or whatever it was. And I was like, okay, didn't know.
What it was.
So then I literally called Fidelity and I was like, can you explain what a four to one k is?
What is this money I'm putting in? What is this match?
And I literally just started going down the line. It was like I need to figure out this money stuff. And it was a matter of me literally just calling some of these institutions, googling stuff, watching YouTube videos, reading books, all of that, like I just I'm like I need to understand this.
Yeah, well, I love to you. Ever, overcame one hurdle, right, which was the education piece. Then you overcame another hurdle, which was the income piece. When you realize there's another hurdle like lingering there and it trips up so many people, right, which is the personal finance education hurdle. Fortunately, we're seeing more and more personal finance classes being mandated in high schools around the country and more than half of seniors are going to get some sort of personal finance class,
which is incredible. But even that might not be enough, and there's a lot of self education that's going to be necessary to really thrive as an adult. Why do you think so many people think that income alone is the solution and that they can out earn their spending. And what do you see when it comes to the she Wolf of Wall Street followers, like, what are their biggest hang ups when it comes to personal finance? Yeah?
I think that the biggest misconception of just make more money and you'll have money for everything you want is that we don't know how much we spend.
We are terrible guessers.
And I would say that this extends to yeah, the community, friends, like anybody you meet, if you are not actually taking a look at how much you're spending. If I say like, hey, Matt, how much do you spend on groceries every month?
Now?
You probably know, right because you're in the space, right, But if you were to just ask a person on the street, they're going to probably just come up with a random number. But it's like, that's just one category. Let's also talk about the dining out park exactly. Yeah, And I've found that people are guessing.
By like half. They'll be like, oh, probably.
Like you know, three hundred, four hundred dollars a month and then we'll add it up and it's like, no, it's more like seven to eight hundred, and they're like what, Like, yeah, that's all the extra trips after work when you decide to go get little treats on your way, and you know,
all that stuff adds up. So I would say that the biggest misconception, you know, the driving factor is not knowing how much you're spending on different stuff, because if you don't know how much you need for things, it doesn't matter how much money you earn, because you're just going to keep buying more of it.
Yeah, So what you're talking about now is like, so far your story has kind of documented your amazing rise. Thank you post graduating, having that first year of your career, which on a though, like paying credit card debt, like that makes you an average American, right, like the average American that's got like six seven thousand dollars on their credit cards. But what we want to talk about next is how you're able to just to completely smash some
of your different financial goals. We'll get all of that and more right after this.
We're back from the break. We're still talking with Amanda Wolf. She goes by the moniker she Wolf of Wall Street on Instagram, and she is been inspiring and helping hundreds of thousands of people in their personal finance journeys after making an incredible one of her own. And I mean, I've heard you say that the first step to getting better with personal finance was facing the facts. And we're just talking about the fact that people don't know what
they actually spend on stuff they're guessing. And there's stats about that too, about hey, how much the average American what do they think they spend on subscriptions every month? It's like, oh, probably one hundred and twenty bucks and then no, it's north of four hundred bucks for the average person. Do you think that people fail to make progress because of that one simple thing of not looking in and seeing, you know, what the actual data looks like?
Totally, totally, And I think it's and I know it's for a lot of reasons. One is, I think it can be really scary. I know that that used to be my feeling, especially if you have debt, especially if you're like got some thin margins over there and you're kind of barely scraping by, it can feel really scary. To open your bank account and look through those things. It can be almost traumatizing when you realize what you're doing to yourself. I actually was just meeting with someone recently.
She's not on social media, but I was helping her out with you know, and I was like, your first job is to go and track your spending over the last six months. She was like, I couldn't stop crying, Like I didn't realize that's how much I was spending, Like what a waste of my money. I had no idea where it was going at. I'm working so hard every day, day in and day out, and I am just throwing my money away on stuff I don't even care about. And I'm like, right now, use that passion.
Let's go ahead and move forward towards, you know, more productive things. But I think it can be just completely debilitating to your finances if you don't sit down and just face the facts.
Every once in a while, as.
I hear you talk through some of this, Amanda, I'm struck by how much action you take. Basically, like you learn about something or you kind of catch catch you with of something and you're like wait a minute, and then you like go chase that thing down. So whether that's like deductions from your paycheck, how much you're paying to a credit card company.
Or researching something and all the tabs you have open doing.
Prior to recording. Yeah, but I guess I'm curious talk about the maybe the like, on one hand, you've got goal setting and you've got okay, the perfect plan where you have to like lay everything out. But then on the other hand, you kind of have like a more pragmatic like I'm just going to take the first baby step and start moving in a direction that's going to
get you closer to your goals. And so one end is very i don't know, academic and lofty, and on the other hand, it's just very gritty and how can I slowly improve my life a little bit today? How do you marry those two things? And I guess what steps would you recommend for somebody to take, Like is it to sit down and think through those goals or is it to do something maybe a little more practical, like, hey, look at all of your expenses from the past six months.
Yeah, I think I think starting with either one of those things is totally fine, And it's more about knowing yourself, like which one of those two things feels less scary to you.
Is it just doing the you know, mind numbing, let me add.
Up what I've spent type of thing, or is it doing the heart thing where you sit down and think about what you want in your life. Those are both two really important things, because if you don't know what you want in life, if you don't know what you want to spend your money on, it's going to be really hard to.
Stop spending it on whatever you're spending it on now.
Right So it's so easy to go and just swipe your card and do all the fun things. But if you're like, oh, wait a minute, I really really wanted to go to Barcelona next summer, and I know that it's going to cost a lot of money. So once that's now in the forefront of your brain or whatever your thing is now, all of a sudden, it makes it way easier to not spend on other stuff because you have a goal that you're striving for. So I
think both of those things are important. Sit down and see what you're spending on, see where you can cut back, but also do the heart thing where you figure out what you want. So whichever is less scary to you, I think would be the perfect place to start.
This may sounding a weird question, but how do you feel about the role of joy in your kind of making financial progress? So somebody might say, hey, but Amanda, these things I'm spending money on, they bring me a lot of joy in my life. And yes, I'm terrified about the debt I'm racking up in my lack of security when it comes to my financial future. But these purchases that are moving the needle on my happiness. How would you kind of help people figure that and kind of sort through that reality.
Yeah, I would say that.
I mean, especially if you have debt, I would say, well, let's take a step back.
Are you actually happy?
You're telling me that this debt doesn't make you feel scared, It doesn't make you concerned that you're not like have somewhere to live one day, or that you're going to have to work for the rest of your life.
You know.
I think I think that we tell ourselves that things make us happy just because it's easier than facing facing reality sometimes and being honest with ourselves.
But I would argue that all of those.
Things are probably not actually bringing them joy and go without them for one month, two weeks, give it whatever you can and just see do you actually miss it or not?
I love it? Okay, So kind of on that note, you shared how when you travel now you're making sure to prioritize the room with like the nice bed, make sure you get a good night's sleep. Like when you were attacking some of your different financial goals, like paying off those credit cards, maybe your student loans, were you allowing yourself some of those splurges within that period of time as well, or was it more like, no, I'm going to feel the deprivation in order to quickly achieve totally.
Not like a rice and beans type person over here. Ok I think that type of person. I think that type of financial advice is like the diet pill of money and it's not sustainable. Do I think doing like a no spend month, or you know, cutting no eating for like two weeks or a month or something like that.
I think that can.
Be really helpful for people who are having trouble getting out of their own head when it comes to spending. I think things like that can be helpful. But if you have if you're not going to ever be able to like go do anything fun for two years while you pay off your debt. I just don't think something like that is sustainable, and I think that you'll probably
end up giving up part way through anyway. Unless you know, unless that's that brings you joy and you know that's going to be your driving factor to get stuff done, then you know, go do it. But I think for most of us that's not that's not the case.
Now.
I did still travel while I had student loans, and I didn't really do it when I had credit card debt, but I kind of knocked that out pretty fast when.
I was younger.
But I would say when I had student loans, yeah, I still traveled, but I didn't go stay in like a five star luxury hotel. You know, at that point, I'm taking the annoying red eye flight that has two layovers to go to Europe because that flight was four hundred and eighty dollars or whatever, you know, or using credit card points to get the hotel, or you know, staying in an upscale, hostile type of situation. So I was still traveling, but I wasn't going over the top.
I wasn't doing Michelin star restaurants and like buying a Chanel bag and then you know, staying in a ritz. Carlton, I wasn't doing that type of stuff, but that doesn't mean I couldn't still go do something.
Sounds like you took the happy medium approach I loved, was just like, yeah, let's get rid of this stat It's it's an important thing, but it's not going to completely upend my ability to live my life in the meantime totally. I want to hear about your kind of take on side hustles because when you first got your job out of college and you were kind of dead set after kind of fillowing your taxes for the first time, on getting your personal finances together, how did you think
about making more money? Because it seems like side hustles have been apart of your financial story from the get go essentially, and they still are, like you still yeah, like she Wild Wall Street is still a side hustle. So so I don't know, how do you think about side hustles and their ability? Obviously, the steady paycheck is nice, but the side hustles are something that you're like, you're going back to the well again and again.
On that, I would say, like, do as I say, not as I do, type of thing, But now I do think that they have a time and a place in everyone's life. But I also can see how people are, you know, fighting against the hustle culture that we have found ourselves to be in. Because I don't think that you should have to hustle to be able to afford your groceries by any means, but I do think that it can be really helpful to catapult your your wealth.
So for me, like, if you are young, you don't really have a lot of obligations.
You know.
I drove for Lyft for a couple of years. That to me, like I got made so much money doing that, and you can do it on your own schedule, so it's not like I had to miss out on doing fun things with friends. You know, Sunday morning, I would like basically I was just taking people to church or brunch and I would go do that for for a few hours.
Yes, yeah, Well, can I tell you one thing real quick, man, I drove one ride for Lyft and I made a thousand bucks because they had this special sign up bonus truly no joke, and it was like for new drivers a thousand I swear it was only on their website for like two hours.
But I found it was like a ghost in the machine and grabbed that ghost by the throat.
I gave made a thousand bucks. That was my lyft driver career.
Oh my gosh, Okay, well you win, you get cold Star for you That is insane. I did not get that bonus. I think mine was one hundred dollars bonus. But no, I mean it was so easy. You know, I live in Chicago, so Mondays after work, I would sometimes go do two rides and it would be on a Bears game like day, like a Monday, right and I would go and make two hundred dollars sometimes on just two rides. It took wow, you know, an hour
of my time. And doing things like that can be to can just completely catapult your So wherever you live, you know, maybe you're not living somewhere where there's Bears games, but if you have debt, or if you're like I just want to get ahead, I don't want to I want to be able to go on an awesome vacation and I know that my current financial situation isn't going to allow. Or I just want to retire early, or you know what, I don't need to be sitting on my phone or watching TV. I'm just going to go
make a little extra money. I don't think there's a problem with that. I do think there's a time and a place. I don't think you should have to do it forever, though, I totally agree.
And what you said earlier too about folks really like cutting back to the bone. That might be a small point where we disagree, because I feel like in small doses, like where you know that there's a finish line that the ability for that to, like you said, not only catapul your income, but if you are able to kind of catapult your wealth by having cut back on some expenses. I think for some people. I think some people out there might like really thrive off of that self flagellation.
Like I'm I'm going to feel it about their own drill instructor. Yeah, yeah, I'm with Amanda. I don't know if I could do that a lot very long. Oh.
I don't think I could either, But if there was like a finish line, like if I knew that, like okay, once I eliminate the credit card debt or once you fill in the blank. But I guess the problem there, though, is that you have the temptation to always move the goal posts. And so I'm curious for you, Amanda, like, how does your upbringing impact your relationship with money now?
Because you are certainly not in the same position where you were five, ten, fifteen years ago, But do you find yourself continually moving those goal posts where you say, Wow, if I actually like zoom out and look at who Amanda is now, you would not have believed yourself prior to having lived it that this is maybe the position you would find yourself in. But we can so easily find ourselves just kind of continuing on in that sort of rat race. Yeah, can you speak to that?
Yeah, totally.
So I think I've pinched myself probably every day because I have been at both extremes, Like I've been at the point where I was I like to call it mathematical gymnastics, where I was like doing mathematical gymnastics trying to figure out like, Okay, I know I get paid on this day, and my cell phone bill is due, you know, on the fifteenth, but I have until the twentieth before they'll actually shut it off, and then my
rent will be due on the first. But I know I'm until the fifth to pay it before, like I'll get in trouble for that, you know, So like I've lived that.
Life that sounds anxiety and yeah, and then I've also lived a life where I'm like, oh my gosh, now.
I have more money than I've ever had and now I feel now this almost feels uncomfortable, Like we all have problems. Some problems are better than others, right, good problem to have, but it like that used to make me really anxious too, like WHOA, what do I even do with all of that?
Do I?
Like, I know I should just be investing large chunks as I have it, but like, oh my gosh, this feels really scary. So yeah, it's weird being on both sides because then I kind of went through a cash hoarding phase as well, where I was holding onto like
way more cash than I needed. And it's a balance to get away from like what you're used to you because especially for me, because you know, I have the full time job and then once she Wolf of Wall Street started growing, and there would be you know, I have a course that I sell, and you know there's brand partnerships, which I don't do a lot of them, but you know, every once in a while and it's like, all of a sudden, you're just making more money than you ever thought you could make.
It can feel scary.
Which might sound counterintuitive if you're listening to this, like, oh, yeah, having more money is scary. No, having more money is definitely better, but it feels scary sometimes when it just kind of hits you all at once.
Yeah, I get that, ok Okay. So the question that the perpetual question that gets asked in personal finance is the relationship between money and happiness, And you're highlighting something that actually, sometimes the more money you get, it's not that it isn't a better problem, but it is some form of a problem at least. How do you think about the relationship between money and happiness as someone who grew up having basically no more money, zero financial security.
Now you're doing quite well, You've built up a lot of financial security. What does that look like because you've run the gamut, you've been across both sides of that spectrum. What does what does that relationship look like? In your mind?
Yeah, I will say having more money is definitely happier than not having money.
Having more money, yeah, because.
What about limiting returns? Though on happiness of more money.
Having more money allows you to.
Pay to go do things that you wouldn't normally be able to do right, Like maybe if you hate cooking, you can hire like a personal chef, or you can hire pre made meals if you're not going that big right, or if you hate cleaning, you can hire a cleaner to come and clean your house every month or week or whatever. Having money allows you to outsource things that you don't enjoy doing. It allows you to travel nicer, It allows you to give money to.
Causes that are important to you.
The only time that I don't think it's worth it is if you have to crush other people to get there. So I don't want to, like, you know, if I have, you know, people who are doing work for me, I'm not going to like pay them the absolute cheapest rate that I possibly can. I'm going to pay them what I think is fair. So me like trying to keep as many pennies to my name as possible isn't like the name of the game, but it's being able to like use them and use that money in ways that
make me feel good. And I would say I've not reached a limit like where I'm like, Oh, I'm good forever. I don't need any more money. Ever, I do think that money can make you immensely happier, you know, beyond if we're ignoring the whole Like, of course, your health is very important, your mental health, all of those types of things are more important than I would say wealth. But wealth also allows you to have better health and better mental health. It allows you to go to the
best doctors. It allows you to have a great mattress to sleep in, It allows you to buy new shoes and see therapists and do different types of things.
Right, money fuels all of that.
This is where I have to drop in this episode brought to you by Casper.
That is the mattress I have actually oh to.
What's I don't know, Purple or some of those other guys. But and like, as I hear you kind of recount your your financial journey, like you obviously had help from other folks, but a lot of the changes you made were just overwhelmingly DIIY. So a little question here, like do you think that most folks out there can just whip their finances into shape on their own without expert help?
You know?
I think it depends on your own personality and just kind of knowing yourself. If you are disciplined and are able to like sift through all the stuff that's out there and get through all the lingo, then yeah. But I also I don't think it's bad to hire a professional as long as you are going to have a seat at the table as well. We've heard of stories like Rihanna who almost went bankrupt to having a bad financial advisor.
Right.
You hear about it with celebrities all the time.
They're hiring the best of the best, and I've seen bad situations across even like students you know, in my community. But I think it's okay to have a professional, but you need to at least have a base level understanding of your money, and I do think that most people most people can get there.
Yeah, I think you're right. It's one of those things where if you fully rely on somebody else, you are liable to get taken. You have to have enough in education to ask at least the right questions if you're going to hire somebody to help you out. I think that's important advice. But we've got a few more questions we're going to get to with you, Amanda and including
we're going to talk about budgeting. But I love what you do on your Instagram and for people who like to kind of voyeuristically peque into other people's budgets, Amanda does that quite well. We'll talk about that with Amanda right after this, we are.
Back for the break talking with Amanda the she Wolf of Wall Street and that's Wolf with an E. By the way, that's how is that how your the handle was available?
Yeah?
Also that's just how you saw my last exactly.
Okay, So Joel mentioned Joel mentioned budgeting, and truly some of the favorite videos that you create are just kind of when you kind of come through the budgets of folks who follow you. You kind of mentioned earlier somebody who you had had assigned. Hey, let's come back and next time we talk, let's figure out what it is
that you're spending your money on. I'm curious in your experience, like, what are some of the most common issues that you see with the with the average budget, with the average individual that comes to you for financial help.
Yeah.
I would say that it's a few things.
One like, just at face value, that people tend to spend way too much of their take home income on things like cars and houses. Like sometimes people are just buying way too much house, more than they can afford, and then it's eating up, you know, forty five percent of their take home income. And then they also have a car, and then they also have daycare, and then they don't know why they have no money.
Amazing. We've made coffee out to be the culprit when the car typically is the one.
The car, the cars, I'm like, where are you guys getting these cars?
Yeah? The cars are.
Just some of the most mind blowing ones for me. You know, people will spend eight hundred dollars a month on a car, and I'm like, you need to get a camera and my friends and then we can talk, you know. And if cars are your thing, that's fine, but you can't. It's just like not everything can be your thing.
Yes, and that's a very expensive what we would call craft beer equivalent. But like, hey, if you if you at are a certain point in your life, if you've got enough socked away in investments, if you make enough every single month and you're just your cash flow is just through the roof, so be it totally. You go ahead and get you that you new Rivan Joel or if I'll throw me under the bus. But man, no,
we're totally with you. Yes, some of those bigger budget line items can completely demolish those budgets.
You mentioned cars in houses. What else do you see when you're looking over those budgets.
Well, I think I think it's because sometimes I'll end up going back and forth the email or chatting with people before I actually post it to try to understand how they got to that point, whether it's they have debt where they just literally have no money left over.
And I think one of the other most common reasons why people get to a point where things are not going as well as they want is just due to lifestyle inflation and just being you know, getting caught up in what their you know, what their neighbors are doing and buying. And I think that as we earn more money, it's okay to spend more money, but don't spend all of the more money. Right, So, if you get a ten percent raise this year, don't increase your expenses by
ten percent. We let's you know, increase them by three percent or even five percent. But the more we spend over the years, the more we're going to need in retirement later, and the more we're going to need in our savings to cover for some of those things, and so all of that adds up. So I'm totally like, if you get a raise, great, what is a nice
little treat you've been wanting for yourself. But let's go ahead and try to rein it in and keep it realistic so that it doesn't just turn into a big, you know, spiral where we can't afford.
Our life anymore.
Yes, no, aman to bring the bringing the balance to the conversation which we're we're.
Your your sister, I say, Okay, I'm curious, we talked about budgeting. You're listeners, you're you're the people who follow you. Are they know about budgeting because you talk about it consistently and you go through other people's budgets, which is a really helpful thing. So how are other people spend Oh, they make one hundred thousand dollars and they spend this and such, and this is how much they have left over.
That's a really helpful thing to see because I think so much of the time we don't know what other people are doing with their money, and so we don't know what to do with ours. But for people who are saying, listen, budgets, budgeting is a four letter word. Don't want to do it, not going to spend the time it's going. We talked about the fear factor. How important is budgeting and how would you maybe coke somebody into doing it and help the encourage them to get over kind of that aversion.
Yeah, so I would say you have to get over the aversion if you want to feel financially secure. Ever, because we tend to build up unknown stuff to be really big and bad, and a lot of times, you know, somebody will be super anxious about their situation and we'll look at it and then they realize, oh, it's not actually that bad, Like, yeah, I have debt, but actually I have more in savings than I needed, but I was afraid to get rid of my cash so I
can pay it off. Or you know what, with just a little bit of discipline, I could be done with this debt in six months, or I could be debt free by Christmas, or you know whatever. I think we tend to make it like a bigger deal in our head when we don't know what's going on.
So sitting down facing the music is.
Going to be really important, but also being like the to sit down and see what you're spending. That initial activity is the biggest one. You don't really need to dig in deep every single month forever, in my opinion, unless things start falling off you know, the rails again.
So for me, I like to call it like the no budget budget, where I basically have I have two accounts.
All of my bills that I already know how much they cost because they're pretty much the same every month come out of one account.
The other one.
I call it like my swipeable account. So as long as that swipeable account doesn't meet my floor, you know, because you don't want to have zero dollars in it, you don't want to overdraw it. But like let's say you have a floor of two hundred dollars. If you know that, if it dips below two hundred dollars, you overspend that month on your swipeable stuff. If it's above it, then that means you have a little extra and you
can put it towards something else. So you know, I use that account for a gas, for shopping for groceries, for all the all the stuff I'm just swiping throughout the month. So that way, like, if I want to go out to more dinners this month, then I just need to cut somewhere else, whether that's spending less on groceries and I need to get a little more creative. Maybe I go to two grocery stores this month, I got a Trader Joe's for my veggies, and I go to you know, aldi form met or whatever. You can
kind of manipulate it that way. I don't think you have to neurotically track every dollar forever, So I would say just know that the if you're feeling really scared or overwhelmed, starting like that first step is the hardest. You're not going to have to go and track the last three months every single month. You're going to just it's that first activity that's the hardest.
Yeah. How do you think about some of the new fangled fintech products and how they're impacting people's finance. It's like, I'm thinking of the apps that allow you access to your paycheck early or buy now pay later, which, hey, that guess what, people have eighteen of those going on, and so they don't actually see the money come out of their account instantly. How's that impacting people's budgets and ability to get ahead with money.
Yeah, so I would say the getting your paycheck early, I mean that's dangerous because we never want to count money we don't have yet, So it's almost like you're taking a loan from yourself from the future. I feel like when with those types of apps and then the buy now, pay later, I just I really feel like, if you have to finance a pair of genes, you should go to the Salvation Army because you can't afford them.
My friend, if you have to break a payment up for a piece of clothing that isn't so critical, then I think, you know, that's a that's a bigger problem because it's not it's not a winter coat or like you're not gonna, you know, freeze to death, like if it's a pair of designer jeans or a leather jacket or just something that's I yeah, I just I think that it's doing a disservice to a lot of people.
Yeah, we really like your approach, Amanda, makes a whole lot of sense, and it's certainly how we try to approach personal finances as well. But where can folks learn more about you? Where can they follow you?
Especially as well, yeah, so Instagram, I would say, is my main social media platform, so she Wolf of Wall Street and that's Wolf with an E, or my website, She Wolfelwallstreet dot com. I have lots of free like resources, trackers, things like that, so go.
Check it out.
Awesome. Yeah, we'll link to all that stuff as well in the show notes up on our website. Amanda. We so appreciate you taking the time to join us today. Thank you very much.
Yeah, thanks for having me. I've had a lot of fun, Joel.
That was a fun conversation to speak with Amanda aka She Wolf of Wall Street. You know, she was talking about breaking up payments on a pera gan. She actually a somewhat recent post she kind of broke down the difference between spending a ton of money on nicer items for ye, like the affordable option and kind of where you would land financially based on the number of wares that you get out of, like a cheap pair of jeans versus the primo jeans that you might wear for years.
I would actually maybe maybe we'll link to that in the show notes. That was a really great social media graphic that she threw up there on Instagram.
Something we talk about too buying it once as opposed to buying it five times. Because you bought the cheap thing, it didn't last, so we didn't even get to that. We're not all about the least expensive thing possible that would be cheap.
But yeah, did you have a big takeaway from our conversation today?
So many? I mean, Amanda's story is so inspiring, is good, but she's also just loaded with such great information because she's done the hard work over a bunch of years to learn this stuff, to master it, to the fact that she can teach hundreds of thousands of people. So have so much respect for her and Matt thanks to Amanda for coming on the show. I think my big takeaway was when she said, we tell ourselves that things make us happy, go without it for a minute, give
it a shot and see if it actually does. And I think that's great advice because there are things that I've said will not make me happy just without trying it. And then I realized after giving it a shot, wait a second, that was actually it was good for me. I actually kind of liked it or vice versa.
Is this an argument for spending more money, Joel, It's just to be like, I need more things in.
My life that provide No, I'm talking about give me joy, specifically about like some physical activity where I was like, I'd rather sit there watch watch my favorite show because that's more enjoyable, And yes, it is more enjoyable in the moment, but it's not more enjoyable in the long term. There you go, and so, uh, there's just a good idea. Test it out, see whether or not it is actually a craft beer equivalent, and if it's not, if it's not moving the needle in the way you think, maybe
the daily coffee habit. I don't want to go back to coffee, but I'm just going to for a second, because coffee is not the problem for most people. But if you're doing that knee jerk robotically and you're like that that's the best part of my day, maybe it is, but maybe it's not. Try try cutting it out for a week and making it home and see if it is.
So great is that you can just give it a shot and you know what, if you find that you
really miss it, you can go back to doing that. Yeah, but I trial and error, baby, But Okay, that's not my big takeaway though, mine will be when we're kind of when we were talking about goal setting, and she said, depending on who you are, maybe you are the kind of person that wants to She said the word mind numbing, which is what kind of got me thinking down this, and she talked about how like you can do the mind numbing number crunching, or you can maybe focus on
the thing that lights you up. I think maybe she referenced like a trip to Barcelona or something like that, which maybe think there are two ways that you can approach it. You can go with the head or you can go with the heart. And I feel like the head approach is like thinking analytical and how it is how can I make some of these small tweaks to my money now in order to achieve whatever end goal
might be out there. Because I think that's great for a lot of folks who don't necessarily have some big life goals yet. But if you have some massive goals that you're trying to achieve, if you have something that really lights you up from the inside, that like from the soul, from the heart, don't ignore those things, right, Like, I don't want people to hear this and think, well, I need to sit down and start tracking all of
my expenses, like we're we were just talking about. I think instead what they can do is print out a picture of the affle tier or whatever it is, like if you were planning to go to the Olympics over the summer, right like, but put that goal or you missed it front and center, like, make sure it's forefront in your mind, because that can then inspire all sorts of changes downstream. It doesn't have to look like one
size fits all. And I like that sheet in a way highlighted that you can take the discipline sort of systematic, dogmatic approach, or you can be a little more loosey goosey with it and kind of just throw yourself after whatever this goal might be that you're trying to achieve.
Yeah so yeah, no, I like that too. You can go one of two ways, and really it's up to you, and it just a quick plug for the how to Money Money Mission statement. Will put a link to it in the show notes where you can go through a few questions that Matt and I have kind of laid out some prompts to kind of figure out, well, what is it that where can I funnel my money that's potentially going to produce the best ROI in my life. I think that's a really good question to ask, and
often it's hard. That's a really hard question to ask on its face. But if you ask some of the smaller questions underneath that question, you can get to the root of it, and then it can it can be enlightening, and it can help you make other changes to then make more progress towards the things you actually care about, and not just spending money on some of the junk that we, you know, knee jerk spend money on.
I totally agree. Man. All right, let's get back to our beer. This one was called Enduring Belief. This is a Rye lagger by Treehouse Brewing Company, sent to us by Michael. Michael, thank you so much for sending this plus others our way, Joel, what your thoughts.
Yeah, we really appreciate, Yes we do, Michael. Good beer and Treehouse is great beer. So thank you Michael. This this beer, Matt really good. It was in Rye Laggers typically sound kind of boring to me. This one was not boring at all. So good, so good, So I really enjoying this. We had those rye spices, those notes, right. It was a little multy and bready. It was also incredibly balanced, like you have some some nice little hops coming through too, like this was this was a really good beer.
Yeah, there's just a lot more flavor in a Rye lagger versus kind of like your standard lagger. And it just made this a I don't know the combination of our conversation with Amanda plus this beer and here at our desk doing what we get to do, like I'm in my happy zone right here. This is awesome. Also, like the name of the beer, and during belief sounds like something from like a constitution, like we have this, we hold fast to this enduring belief of I don't know, you feel in.
The blank you sound like Alexander Hamilton.
But uh, glad, you know. I got to enjoy this one today.
But I have an enduring belief. But everyone out there listening can make changes to their money. And I think if if Amanda, well.
I'm glad this wasn't an immediate plug for reviewing how to Buddy podcast.
You know, I think, Amanda, this is where I thought you were going. Incredible example of people who can come from hardship still and overcome it and crush it so glad we were able to talk to her today. And if you want the show notes links to some of the stuff we mentioned, we'll have those up on our website at howtomoney dot com. And yes, of course, like Bat mentioned, leave a review for the podcast if you have it already.
Why not?
Yeah, I don't believe they allowed twenty six stars yet, but five stars will suffice. So thank you Advanced for doing that. Matt. That's going to do it for this one. Until next time, Best friends Out and best Friends Out.