Fractured FIRE: Early Retirement, Not So Hot Right Now! #536

we are continuing our conversation about fire. We talked with Sam the financial Samurai earlier this week, and this is something we like to coincide with Independence Day that having been Monday, and we're going to continue the conversation a

little bit more on this Wednesday episode. We're gonna talk about fire in the midst of the market today and how it is that folks are experiencing it, as well as just some some thoughts that we have in particular about the r E part of fire, the retire earlier part. We're gonna talk a lot about work today. I'm looking forward to that discussion, buddy. That's right. So it's and part of it is like the current economic situation, how does that impact the movement as a whole. We're gonna

talk about that. We're also gonna talk about maybe the things that we like the most about fire. So it's not all going to be like hating. There's gonna be yeah, we're not gonna hate. Hopefully a balanced perspective here. Absolutely. Hey, real quick though, I cannot remember if we mentioned this on the show, but I had listed a sofa that we had. This is, by the way, This is a sofa we've that we had for close to ten years,

and we are selling it. I mean we sold it, I will say, because we already got the money for it. We sold it for almost what we paid for it. That's inflation right there. But I just know that, like it's crazy. First of all, it makes the new alternative is twice as one. Exactly, it makes me want to continue to buy like quality goods. It was interesting, is this is the first more expensive piece of furniture that

Kate and I ever purchased. And even the time, we're like, we looked at each other before we click purchase, because even back then it was an online purchase and we said, are we really about to spend this much money on a sofa? But we knew lose quality was made of leather. It was solid. Uh and sure enough, man, the value of that thing is held up. We are certainly happy about that. But what I wanted to talk to you

about is the fact that I listed this sofa. I listed it on Facebook marketplace, and a lady bought it. She sent me money via zel, so the money was sitting there in my account, and I asked her, Hey, all right, let let me know when you are able to come by and pick it up. And she's like, all right, I'm, you know, scheduling some stuff with the movers. I'll let you know. It's been weeks since, uh, we have had that interaction, and I've reached out to her

and we still have the sofa. Honestly, I'm getting kind of tired of it. I'm I'm tired of this thing sitting around. Uh. It does not have a place in the new house. But what say you, Joel, Yeah, I mean, that's that's a good question. You've already had to move this couch when you were hoping they would come before you left, exactly before you moved. So luckily no swent off my back. We the movers and they're like, oh, yeah,

no problem. Yeah, they threw it in there. Um. I was hoping actually that they would come right before we moved, and so it was like literally one of the last

things they put it on the on the actual truck. Okay, well yeah, the tough thing is like there's nowhere inside the house for it, so leaving it on the covered porch and like letting them know, hey, this is no longer in a climate controlled space and uh and really it's up to you to pick it up start making it look less attractive for them to leave it with me longer. But I would also I would give them

a deadline. I'd say, like, listen, there's there's a week before So if I do that, that's a tough thing. You can't refund them all their money. Well, I don't want to, That's the thing. I don't want to go through the pain of having to relist it because it's it's just a pain. But would you feel comfortable reselling it, selling it to somebody else, because that starts to feel a little dishonest, right, I mean, only if you're going to refund their money. If you sold it, chances are

you might not get the same price. I mean, there's all sorts of weirds in there. So I also feel terrible about sticking like putting it out on the curb at that point too, right, Because if I give them a hard deadline and say, all right, like literally after this, I'm gonna put it out on the curb, I think that's the like, the most honest way of going about things. Because so too, I don't feel like that's a really crappy thing to have a couch that you pay a

lot of money for putt on the curb exactly. It's also really crappy to leave someone hanging for weeks and weeks and weeks when you've bought something but you're not coming to pick it at track together. And plus you stick it on the curb. You know somebody's gonna see that and think, uh, what are you doing? Like is this for a photo shoot or something? Are you taking photographs of this sofa and front? Someone's going to grab

it really quickly and they'll be outsolute. A lot of money with no couch, you're gonna yeah, ye, So, but maybe make my green slide curb alert, like put that thing to shame, but maybe that lights to fire under them the exact fire that's needed to be like, Okay, we gotta figure this out. We can no longer just kind of like twiddle our thumbs and hope that at some point something lands into our lap so we can

pick it up easily. I gave a soft deadline previously, but I think maybe the next step is to be like, look, if you don't get it by x dates, I am going to be forced to put it out on the curb because literally we want to spend about a month now, and and that's that's just a lot of time. Yeah, it's I think you you are with well within your at this point, Thank you very much. Curious if you're gonna be like, sell it again, you're gonna make twice as much money, that would be That would be terrible,

I think. I mean, the the only alternative is if you sold it but then you refunded their money if it's sold for let's say a different price, or if you sold it for less and maybe there was a discrepancy, like you you send them the smaller amount of I don't know, I mean, like that seems kind of weird. Would feel I would feel decent about that and be like, hey, sorry, like someone else bought it, but they bought it for a hundred bucks less, so I'm sending you back what

you sent me minus a hundred. I mean, there's no real great scenario here, it's all. It's also weird because she never came and saw the thing, and then weird like, would you drop multiple thousands of dollars? Uh, it's not like three it's basically for this thing. Would you spend that much money on a sofa that you've never even laid eyes on? Highly unlikely. The fact that she I mean like from article or something, if it was brand new, yeah, absolutely,

but not used. Yeah. I was kind of dumbfounded by the fact that she just went ahead and sent over the money, and I'm like, wait a minute, is this some sort of really fancy scam. But I mean, it's difficult as far as I know, I haven't heard any zel scams as far as like false deposits being made or anything like that. It's not like a forged check where the funds are going to come back as insufficient, you know, a week from now, and you've already sent

a real check. To the point to this game, everybody might have been making in your yeah a long time. It's very seasons. All right, Well, um, good luck with that one. That sounds like a little bit of a money ethical um that we're annoying conundrum, a weird little dilemma. Yeah, alright, let's move on, Matt. Let's get to the beer mentioned. The beer we're having on this episode. This one is

called just a Kiss by the Brewery. And when I when I say the brewery, I always think of like the Ohio State University UM and because that's just kind of an interesting name, the brewery, but it's spelled different, you know, be r u e r y and and this this in a more European way, right, this this the brewery has been making awesome beers for a ton of years now. So yeah, we'll give our thoughts on this saison at the end of the episode, but for now,

let's get onto the subject at hand. We are talking about the Fire movement and how it's being fractured right now. And Matt made me think that, you know, some things sound really good until in reality they aren't. Right, my kids like naming your brewery and the brewery right, you're like, wait, now, that's just confusing. But my kids, they often tell me about how they plan to make decisions when they become adults that are very different than the ones that that

we're making them, my wife and I are making. It's not surprising. But of course, all the free money they have on hand, they're gonna spend it at the candy store. That's how on their list. They're going to eat ice cream every night. Right, They're gonna do things a little differently once they rule the roost. And I don't know about you, Matt, I thought that way when I was

young too. I think most kids do, right, Um. I still one of my favorite scenes in all of movie history is Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory when they enter the candy room, and like, I just imagining myself in that is like, um, it's something I've done for a lot of years, right, Like, oh wow, how would you spend thirty minutes? There? You go? Hey wire? But um, would you kind of float down the chocolate river? Would you? Maybe? Like that sounds kind of fun? Which one would you be?

All the above? Maybe not Charlie, but yeah, Like, as you grow older, you start to realize that some of those things when you were a kid that you thought were great, well, there's other constraints maybe that prevent you from living that life, Like, um, maybe it wasn't just the rules that your parents had. There were other good reasons.

Now you don't want to rock your teeth out, you don't want to gain a ton of weight, or you don't want to eat like crap and feel awful of adult onset diabetes, exactly, there are other reasons to avoid uh, eating as much candy as you can. And so what sounded really good to eight year old me, it's not necessarily as appetizing to thirty eight year old me, and

I hope the same is true for my kids. But I think there's something similar happening when it comes to the Fire movement right now, Right, this idea that sounds compelling to become financially independent and to retire early when the market is screaming higher year after year, Well it doesn't feel the same when we're experiencing a major correction and inflation soaring at the same time. Like I think the Fire movement is grappling with maybe kind of a

new economic reality. Yeah, yeah, So it shouldn't come as a surprise, right that we're talking about this today during our how to Money Financial Independence Week. But the market has basically been in the red all year long, A couple of weeks ago, the SMP officially entered into bear market territory. And if you're someone who is counting on the returns from the market to provide you with income,

you're probably sweating bullets these days. You're you know, you're watching your portfolio balance with her like a like a scorched yard in July. And I'm guessing you're a bit more tense these days. Uh. And since you retired early, you might even be busting out the old rolodex. You might be reaching out to old co workers, old bosses in an effort maybe to secure a spot with your old employer. As your portfolio is taking a nose dive, you're trying to remember, how did I how did I

go out? How did I quit? That I burned some bridges on the way out? That did I throw up a couple of middle fingers? Is there a way that I could perhaps come on as a contractor hopefully I was courteous when I did that. Yeah, but you know, the idea of fire it still sounds great, But the re pity of when or or how you get there, it sure seems a little more precarious in the present moment. That's what we want to talk about today. Yeah, I

mean the fire movement. It was certainly looking easier, right. It seemed like the playbook was pretty simple when and it literally was easier. Yeah, Like like when we are seeing close to returns, you know, multiple years, Uh, you're probably feeling pretty good about your prospects of uh being able to achieve the four percent rule within your early retirement's right, Yeah, by the time within ten years or

something like that. If the market's going up at that sort of pace during the you know, longest bull market in US history, it seems a little more achievable. And I don't think it's coincidental that the movement gained a lot of traction and additional adherence in the last five or seven years, right, Um. And that's not to say that there weren't other people living the quote unquote fire lifestyle under a different moniker right before that that term

got popularized. Some people definitely were. They were saving huge chunks of their income. They were proponents of investing a lot of what they were saving. But the reality is had a booming stock market made it kind of feel like fire was reasonably easy to achieve, and it drew

more interest but market volatility was. Although there are people in the space certainly talking about the reality of market volatility, a lot of folks in the fire movement hadn't yet experienced it firsthand, and there's just there's just nothing like real life experience to mold and shape our views. And when you actually endure a downturn, when the economic reality that you've been accustomed to gets upset, the apple car gets turned over, it's going to impact maybe how you

view the movement as as a whole exactly. Andy didn't count because that wasn't I mean, we did drop over, and so it was a bear market at that point. It is more than that, actually, but that was you know, it was a medically induced coma that was an artificial little blip, and so we hadn't It was short lived, really, yeah, it was like like barely a month, and we had all those things on our mind at that point in time,

whereas right now not not so much exactly. And so it's been close to fifteen years now since the true bear market, and so a down arct, this this drunken net worth maybe that you might be experiencing. This is a tough thing to stomach, especially after you just hit your your fire number and you quit your job. But it's not just that. At the same time, prices are going bonkers. We're seeing inflation at the highest it's been

in over forty years. And so, yeah, folks maybe who retired early to do a bunch of traveling, especially if you happen to jump on that that van life bandwagon where you're having to pay for fuel. You're not seeing your money go quite as far as as you used to have. Those projections aren't looking nearly as safe, and you're spending money, you know, hand over fist when you thought, this is my guest for what I'm gonna spend in a month, and it's likely exceeding that by a decent

choking exactly. So basically, your income has gone down, your expenses have gone up. It's a double whammy. So the early retiree is going to have to make some tough decisions. They're gonna have to likely rain in there they're spending for the time being. Uh, And so early retirement might have to look different than previously planned. When inflation is nearing ten percent. Uh, it's some folks are pushing off their fire date or they're they're going back to work

to ensure that they won't run out of money. There are a confluence of factors that are causing folks to rethink everything that's right. Yeah, And I think the thing about financial freedom is that it needs to be simultaneously an offensive and a defensive move. Right. It's it's kind of an offensive strategy in the sense that you are saving and investing more in order to take control over

your own financial future. You're you're basically investing in a way that just exceeds your peers on almost every level, in an effort to have more control over how you spend basically every minute going into the future. Uh. In that post work retire early lifestyle fire devotees, they work to have an investment portfolio that is twenty times or

annual expenditures. But what happens if you reach that point and then a bear market proceeds to tear that plan apart quickly, bringing you down to something like maybe eighteen times your annual expenditures. Uh. And that's not what you plan for. That's that's where the necessity for a strong defense comes in, because you can't know in advance when

a market correction is coming. We all know that. I mean, you know, Robert Kiosaki has been predicting them every single year for a decade and he's been wrong until now he's like, finally, even even a broken clock is right. What twice a night might see? Guys, I told you. But yeah, to be able to fire without stressing, it's it's it's just crucial to find a way to pad your portfolio for times like this, as well as allocating your investments in a way that's not going to derail

those plans. And so it's offensive, it's defensive, but I think some of the fire proponents they really got the offensive part of the fire movement down, but maybe maybe when it came to some of those those defensive moves they were lacking. And we all know Matt defense wins championships, right.

I'm just thinking of a swinger's reference. You're talking about, like the bear ripping up the plan, and I wish I would have come up with, you know, the Vince von scene when he's talking about the bunny and how I don't think I ever saw that movie, dude, everyone, I mean, I know it's one of those classics, but it's definitely a class sick I need to rewatch that. So anytime we talk about bear markets moving forward, I

can bust out that quote. Um, but I mean, generally speaking, like financial independence, it takes a long time to reach for the average person. You know, like we're talking a decade for some folks. You know, some folks can do it within a shorter number of years, but oftentimes it's

gonna take a good bit longer. And while we are all about the pursuit of financial independence on shorter on a truncated timeline, the Fire movement can be a bit extreme for our tastes, and in an environment like the current one, at least a percentage of Fire adherents are having to reconsider the current plans or their timeline. And so we're going to talk about better ways to think

about financial independence. We're gonna talk about quitting a job that you don't like, in addition to praising the Fire movement for what it does get right. And we will get to all of that right after this break. Okay, we are back from the break and just kind of kind of set the stage. I think a lot of people maybe who are prominent in the Fire movement, especially people who still make money talking about the Fire movement.

Those folks are probably in an O case scenario because they haven't actually bailed from work that provides income altogether. But some of the folks who are on the other side of the or because they had enough of that padding that you talked about before break exactly like you've got the and they and they still live incredibly frugally and they have way more money than they'll ever need

even in a bear market. Yeah, like that padding is like you you know, you're you're talking about offense and defense. I feel like offenses investing in earning more defense is cutting your expenses, right, because you're trying to cut the defensive move to But like maybe it's the special teams. Is that like the padding there in the middle, Like it's all those small little things in the in between in between you scoring points and in between you keeping

your opponent from scoring points on you. I think there are ways to be solidly financially independent and not have a job that's earning money. But it means that you've you've got some good padding in your life, some significant investments in savings. It means that you've got padding, But it also means in all likelihood that you, Yeah, if you've quit your job. That's something that we should talk about now, because you and I were not necessarily in

favor of the r E part of fire Right. It's not it's not our favorite, and that is kind of one of those things, like it kind of comes along with the financial independence package when you're talking about this movement, and I think in this movement overall, there's just been too much of an emphasis when it comes to ditching work, and I think that that narrative is shifting at least

a little bit. But you know, the concept of working sixty hours a week at a job you don't like for a decade knows to the grindstone or maybe even longer, in order to never have to work again. That still exists. There's still people in the movement that kind of think about it like that as a way to maybe hate your life for a decade so that you can enjoy the rest of it. I just think it's a horrible way to live, especially you know, some of those prime years where you can be having you know, fun and

using your income to you know, do things that you joy. So, yeah, we're gonna give maybe some alternatives to the idea. The concept of early retirement and how you should use your growing nest egg to help you reframe and reconsider how you work, when you work, and what kind of work it is that you choose to do. Yeah, it's true, right that not everybody within the fire community thinks that

work is bad. It's a good thing. But there's an often like subtle and sometimes not so subtle insinuation that you've gotta you know, get off that hamster wheel, and that your day job is preventing you from living the life that you want. If only you had a million dollars in the bank, you know, you could, you could ditch it all together. You could be free. But we think that the work that you do right, that it is adding value to the lives of other people while

simultaneously rewarding you with money. So you're providing value in your you know, through your actions, and you're receiving financial or monetary value in return and pursuing financial independence so that you can opt to partake and work that is more enjoyable and maybe a little bit more meaningful to you that makes sense to us, or even having you know, just more savings and investments so that you can opt to work less but quitting altogether at an early age.

I think it's it's a misplaced goal because we want you to be focused on something else. It's not necessarily about trying to leave the rat race, trying to leave the job that you have currently as fast as possible. I think so much of it comes down to what it is that you are seeking after. You want to have a goal. Yeah. I think often times in the fire movement, that is the misplaced goal. It is like, uh,

an intense dislike of work. The fire number is sort of that misplace and it's like, that's how I get out of the thing that I hate, when instead we would say it's even worth making less money, right, or in order to enjoy what you do more, prolonging your ability to achieve that elusive fire number. Yeah, I think a lot of times the the end result might be the same, but it's just what it is that you focus on, right. It's it's the negative, you know, like

you cut something out of a sheet of paper. Uh, You've got like the positive and the negative. Uh. It's oftentimes folks who are focusing on the negative, like that's what we want you to avoid doing, and we want you to instead focus on the positive parts. Uh, And in the end, we still think that you're gonna potentially

end up at the same point. You might end up at the same point financially, but what your life looks like within during the interim, what your life looks like in the meantime, I think that could vary wildly, as well as your ability to just stay happy while you

are retired, even if it is early. Yeah, and you mentioned going part time just a second ago, you know, and I think that's actually a really good thing to to hone in on for a second, because going part time, I think it's a great way to think about financial independence, right, especially for folks who do feel overworked, who have been working fifty sixty weeks. Being able to work twenty hours a week instead of that, that seems like a much

better scenario for so many people. And that is going to get people the way there, right, And the thing is you don't get there overnight. That's of course true, But it's easier to accomplish that than amassing a war chest that allows you to retire and then never have to earn another dollar for the rest of your life. You're still getting some sort of income and some sort of fulfillment from that place that work occupies in your life.

And I also like how financial independence may be pursuing that can allow you to start your own business or to pursue a career that just doesn't pay us much. And instead of that note to the grindstone life for a decade, right that we were talking about, so that you're can eliminate work forever, allowing your net worth to support your ability to pursue work that you actually care

about that might not be as lucrative. I think that is a better trade off, right than kind of the work as completely as hard as you can until you finally don't have to work at all anymore. Like it's it's like a spigot that's either all on or all off, And I just don't think that's like the best way to conceptualize totally. Yeah, there are a lot of in

between points. It doesn't have to be binary. But I think it can also lead to not only just work that you find more meaningful or that you're more passionate about, but it can also lead to you continuing to do that work just at a pace of life that you envisioned for yourself. And so I think I Like. The reason I say this is because I think a lot of times there can be so much, maybe an over

emphasis placed on work that's your passion. And I think there's a lot of folks out there who might be listening thinking, yeah, I never found like my like my passion job, or they're thinking, well, like, I've got this job. It pays pretty well, I've got pretty good benefits, it's got good you know, I've got some good flexibility. But what I say, it's like my passion, I don't, I don't know, Like what does that look like? I think there are going to give you enough time to pursue

those passions. On the side, I think if it pays enough and offers you enough flexibility, that's a great scenario for a ton of people. Oh absolutely yeah. And so I guess when I'm pointing out though, is that the way that we view our work I think comes down oftentimes to just recognizing the value that we are able to bring to other people's lives, not necessarily ditching that

job for something that we are going to find more passionate. Right, Like, it's easy I think for like an E. R doctor to say this, I'm making a difference here like, I'm literally saving lives, and so in that case, I think those doctors perhaps don't have to do as much work.

Uh from what is this work providing for folks? Because it's very obvious, right, like really you're saving you're saving the lives of people, compared to like a window washer, where they're like, Okay, how is this making a difference?

And instead of maybe looking down on the work that you know you might consider to be menial labor to instead of look like literally look at the value the benefit that you're bringing to those around you, or to your your clients or your customers, or at least to your boss who is happy to pay you for the work that you're doing. It's more of like this mental like kind of mind shift I think that can take place rather than like this literal career or job shift

in order to find more fulfillment within your work. Yeah, and I think in in any job you can find kind of the way that you can view it as an act of service. And yes, exactly, even in something like pressure washing somebody's right, which I used to do when I got my my first full time gig in radio,

I was pressure washing on the side. And there's a way that you can view that as just like a meaningless task, a job that needs to get done, or you can view it as like serving someone and helping them make their how slept better, Like look how clean this house is? Look how look how nice this driveway is?

Always maybe feel good. After the kids are gonna be able to come out here, they're gonna sit on this driveway and it's gonna be so clean, like it's not gonna have any more that tree grime or like how to driveways get so dirty. I don't even know tree sap and it's like tree sap, but it's just like it's like tree dander. It's just like this gunk that gets on there, you know. But like if you can look at it that way, I think I can make any job that you're doing, uh seeing much more fulfilling.

Makes me think of Mike Rowe, who we've talked about trying to get on the get on the show before. But like the ability to find like joy and contentment within work that you do, I think more value needs

to be placed on those types of jobs. And so we just talked about going part time, and I think taking a break is another thing that you can consider instead of like thinking that you have to quit work all together, taking an extended period of time off is another good way to think about getting away from work, but for a period of time, but for a you know, defined period of time, something like a few months. And you know, occasionally our employer is actually willing to give

that to us, like other times they aren't. We actually talked about this, that the fact that more companies are offering sabbaticals just a few months ago on the show, and we think that's actually a really cool perk um that a lot of companies are offering their employees somewhere between one and three months of of leave, whether it's

paid or unpaid. But I think those extended times away from work are good for our brains, are good for our bodies, and they often provide some renewed insight for us into what we want our work lives to look

like moving forward. So um, yeah, instead of like quitting and leaving all together, Uh, it's it's a good idea to see if you can work in an extended breaks, some sort of sabbatical so that you can maybe reflect and get renewed, get some rest, and then you know, either come back with a renewed passion or maybe just kind of yeah, start figuring out how you can pivot into something else in the future. Yeah, I'll mention too.

I feel like the word sabbatical is like totally in vogue right now, like you hear, not only more like there's more people we know who are using that term, but also like was written I think it was in like Fortune or something like that. A lot of companies are doing it as well, and I like the reason I feel like it's overused is because like, really it's just a break, like for most folks, but most people think of a break as like a week, and it's

about is like it's a longer break. But I think it goes beyond that, and it comes down to the intentionality that comes with what you do with that time, because I think what's like truly involved is pausing from your work but then looking like literally sort of like what I was saying earlier, looking back at the work that you've done and like reflecting on it and to realize that like, oh man, this is this is good work, like I did a good thing here, but then also

looking ahead and maybe deciding what do I want that you know, the next seven years of my life to look like, what what is it going to involve? Like, what is my career path going to be? Am I going to be with the same employer? Is it time to you know, hang my own shinkle and go out on my own But it is important to note that that ditching work, Like the reason we're mentioning this is because we want folks to know that it doesn't have to be permanent. You don't have to retire early completely.

You can just take one these breaks. You could take a more intentional sabbatical. For instance, our our buddy Chad Carson, he moved to another much more affordable country. He's planning to be there for like six or nine months or something like that. He's about to do this with his family for the second time. He's not trying to quit work all together. But he's all about the exposure and the sort of the the cultural experience that his family, that in particular his kids are going to be able

to experience. And so we mentioned this because we feel that seasons of relaxation, of being intentional with where your mind is not just thinking about the next project at work that needs to get accomplished or solved or figured out, being able to focus on the future, being able to focus on your family. We think all these things are are all very important. Yeah, they're all important, But you don't have to quit your job altogether and never work again in order to get a taste of some of

the best parts of what early retirement looks like. That's kind of what we're saying, right, that there are other ways to kind of enjoy some of the best parts without saying like I gotta have two million dollar portfolio a nest egg um in order to even be able

to consider leaving my job. It's like, no, no no, no, there are a lot of steps in between, and when it's all or none, you're you're maybe putting too much emphasis on a movement that could make you unhappy for an extended period of time when there are better options on like this dial, right, you're like, instead of turning it to ten, turn it to three or five. Switch. It's not an on or off switch only. Yeah, and Matt, you mentioned Chad and his family doing their second sabbatical.

I did something similar actually when I was like twenty two, quitting my first job for three months, and I thought I was just going to use it as an opportunity to move out west to a different part of the country, but it ended up I moved back down here to the southeast. But it was one of those things where I didn't even have a ton of money saved up.

I'd like ten thousand dollars maybe in my bank account, and I knew that I could travel cheaply for three months on on that money, on that nest egg, and I still had some left over at the end. So it's one of those things where I think sometimes people assume that even for that, they need like some sort of massive nest egg hanging out in their saving muse account,

And I just don't think that's the case. I think you can make one of these things happen without necessarily upending your life completely or having just a ridiculous amount of money on hand. That's true, Yeah, and we should

really give credit to to to where it's due. A lot of folks within the Fire movement have talked about the problem with the retire early portion of fire, uh, And you know, some of this is just a reflection of the earlier fire folks and the ensuing branding of Fire, But lots of people who are all in on fire they don't, you know, they don't really choose to walk

away from work all together. Uh. Like, there are a lot of folks who end up starting a blog, who start a podcast promoting the tenets of fire to other folks, and a lot of those individuals are making a solid income from that newfound, enjoyable post retirement work. But retiring from work altogether at a young age like that being your only goal, that is not what we're trying to

get folks to do here. And it's not just because we want people to work for the rest of their lives without actually, you know, quitting work at some point. But I think one of the other reasons that I think work is at least some work is helpful for people is because a lot of folks in the fire lifestyle or who have actually pulled the trigger and they

have retired early. Well, I feel like I've heard a good number of them say that the fire lifestyle can be lonely, and so I think part of what makes not working fun is having other enjoyable things to do and then other people to do them way. I think that's why so many folks within the fire movement have blogs, and because they're trying to convert more folks over to their side too, over to the dark side perhaps, Uh, And I need more daytime pool hang friends. Come join me.

The water is fine, and I want you to be a part of my life. Literally, I've heard folks talk about that before. Yeah, because if all your friends are still working right early retirement, it kind of can become this lonely endeavor. So it's it's truly, it's not just the stock market troubles or the reality of inflation that makes fire less desirable right now. It's it's the reality fire it's not always as rosy as the folks pursuing

it hoped it would be once they achieve it. And so you know, our friend Brandon the mad Fienist, he's he's kind of admitted this much that that his fire reality was actually a good bit tougher than he dreamed it would be. And it actually kind of brings me back to our our conversation with Wes Moss back in

the day. Matt he he is mostly focused on helping traditional retirees make the transition to retirement in a happy way, but he says that the happiest retirees, even the ones who bag work early have a slew of what he calls corpor suits, which are which are extremely meaningful hobbies. But they also have a significant attachment to friends into family. They spend a lot of time with them in their retired years, and that's just not nearly as possible. It's

so much harder to do as an early retiree. But it's also as much more difficult because of the reality that most of your friends are probably still traditionally employee. They're still working, and so they're not going to be able to hang out with you during the day when you want a hiking buddy or someone to play disc

golf with. And so I think that's one of the other things where it might sound nice a ditch work, But then when you think about the reality, it's like, well, if all my favorite people are still working, um, it might it might feel a little more like a prison than it does some sort of new found freedom. Yeah, so all the more reason to talk about money, to talk about personal finances, so that you can win your friends over, so that you can all go out and

do that together. But like we said earlier, you know, we're not only going to hate on fire on even early retirements. There are some benefits. There are some great things that you can do when you retire early. Uh, and there are some great overall principles that fire espouses, and so we will get to all of those right after this break. All right, we are back, Matt. I feel like until this point we have been a little

Debbie downer. We've talked about how fire feels a little economically untenable right now, at least for a lot of folks who previously had a plan worked out their plan. It's a little more difficult these days. For sure. What do they say, you make a plan? And God laughs that that's one of those things where a lot of people in the Fire movement have probably experienced that a little bit within the last six months to a year, as inflation is soaring and the market is not doing

so hot. But but the reality is that you and I actually love a lot of things about what the Fire movement preaches, and and I think it's it's been in a lot of ways. In many ways, it's been far more good than it has been bad, and it's impacted are thinking insignificant ways. So maybe for a second, we can share some of our favorite aspects of fire. We can we can end this podcast on a positive note. Totally, man,

let's do that's. Uh. You know, one of the best things about fire is the fact that it stresses a high savings rate. Like that is something that we can totally get behind. That's something that we prize because traditional personal finance folks, they they've often suggested saving Uh, let's say ten percent of your income doesn't sound like enough. Yeah, Well, while that's the case, Fire uh proponents they like to turn that dial up in a big way, something closer

to five, fifty, even seventy percent of your income. Uh. Some firefolks actually do this, and we think that that can be a really good thing. If you have this overarching plan and you know what it is that you are escaping to, right, like that that you are working towards. We want you to reach these varying stages of financial freedom well before you you reach actual retirement age as defined by the I r S, and a better than average savings rate is going to be key to actually

make this happen. Yeah, Matt. Before I kind of started reading some of the fireblogs, I just assumed that I was killing it. I like a fift savings right, and I thought that was like, there weren't many people out there doing much better than that. Then I ran into some of the firefolks and I saw how much they were saving, and I was like, it was a challenge to me to do better, And I realized that that is one of the best things that Fire has to offer.

It's it's showing a lot of people that there's a lot more wiggle room in your budget and there's more ability for you to save than maybe you previously thought. But the firefolks aren't just saving money. They want people to invest their money. And so, yeah, while we agree it's not sitting in that saving as accounts earning their point nine percent now classically in vts more than what's like barely more at one point one point two five Per's true, Yeah, so it's better at least savings rates

are going up. Having cash on hand is important, even in an environment of high inflation. But but investing allows your money to work harder for you than you're working for it, and that is something the Fire movement understands in a big way. And so what happens is compounding

starts to do the heavy lifting for you. After years of dedication to investing and so we would say that the movement is also all about simple, low cost methods of investing that we love, you know, stacking your money away into index funds, low cost index funds like the Total Stock Market Fund or SMP five fund. But v o O baby Poo is great VT rates. We've got FC rocks like those are those are some of our favorite funds for you to consider investing your money in.

But lots of firefolks they get they even get go past that, they get creative by investing in real estate or by house hacking as well. And so yeah, the desire on behalf of so many in this community to invest not just a small fraction of your paycheck, not just getting maybe the company match in your four own K, but to be stuffing huge chunks of your earnings into those accounts. That's something that Matt, you and I we both get behind in a big way. We think that's

laudable for sure. One of the other core tenants of the Fire movement is the fact that by having more money on hand, that that means you are going to have more options at your disposal. Because you know, we'd say that dishing work altogether in your early thirties that like that alone isn't a great goal, But the more you are able to save, the more choice that you're going to have over how it is that you spend your time. That that's what's gonna allow you to be

able to go from full time to part time. You know, like that is going to be what allows you to spend more time with your kids or serving your community. You know, you can choose to do non work things with your time, whether that's volunteering with the local Habitat for Humanity affiliate or you know, serving regularly, say it

like at a local soup kitchen. There are a million different ways that you can make yourself invaluable to your community and to your neighbors that don't involve you being compensated. And so having options allows you to to shift your goals as you get older, because you might find that the things that sounded good in your twenties they're just not as appetizing in your in your forties. That growing nest egg is going to allow you to have the

freedom to choose your own adventure. Yeah, man, I liked Miller High Life a lot more in my twenties than I do in my late thirties. You know, I'm I used to settle for some of that stuff in my fridge still dig it just can't do you, Yeah, after cutting the grass. There is a time and place for almost all beer. Yeah, my friend, No, I'm I agree with you, But I'd rather even have like rather po downs and halfway crooks. Ye longer, absolutely for sure that being said, you know, just to be able to Yeah,

for pure hydration purposes, Miller, I'll totally do. It's not hydrating though, that's the problem. You should drink water instead. But yeah, your prior change as you get older and some of the things that you maybe thought were great, or you thought the ways in which you are living frugally, you're gonna kind of do that in perpetuity. Well, you might want to expand some things as you get older, and so you have to think about that on the front end. Um that the way you live in the

budget you have now won't stay constant. And we we also think, Matt, that that fire can make you a more productive citizen kind of like you were talking about right, like life just isn't all about work, and and the Protestant work ethic, it just gets a lot of praise right that this country, we do have a problem with over work. There's a tendency for people to put too much stock in their career and not enough in their

family at the family and community level. And so it's it's it's, uh, you know, we just don't take enough breaks in our work. Weeks as a whole are just too strenuous. I would say. So being able to work less means that you can, like you said, volunteer more. You know, you can show up at your kids school. Uh, you can support the teachers. You know. We we shouldn't

just be working stiffs. We're really I think what we're saying in this episode is that we should aim to be whole listic citizens who have like the time, the ability, and the energy to make impacts in other ways rather than just at the office. Yeah, and you know, you were just mentioning the Protestant work ethic. We I think the values that Fire espouses are just way better than kind of the mainstream American values today, not just in in how much we work, but also just in how

much crap that we buy for ourselves. Because consumerism, I think it's the de facto religion of the US, and Fire is promoting frugality, it's promoting intentionality, and yeah, we're we're in the same camp on this one. We believe that attempts to rein in spending and to be content

with less are definitely laudable. And so, you know, please don't hear say that the Fire movement is all bad, because we've you know, we've had some awesome folks like Mr Carl and Rich and regular Kirsten and Julian, we've had them on the show. There's some of the biggest voices within the Fire movement, and there's a lot that we can learn from their experience. But we also believe

that the Fire space also needs maybe a bit more humility. Uh. And this giant market correction it seems to be offering a dose of it right now. We had the financial Samurai you know again on the podcast on Monday, and he actually he had this recent post that you should check out about the regrets that a bear market can create in some firefolks, even the ones who are are blogging. They're out there teaching others about how to achieve financial

independence and how to retire early. Uh. We will link to that in the show notes. Uh. But yeah, we believe that the pursuit of financial independence is a worthy goal, but the goal of of doing all that you can in order to achieve not only financial independence but being

able to retire early is a misplaced goal. You know, we we we want to make sure that you are again not just escaping from something, but that you are escaping to something, because the end result, like, like I was saying earlier, like I think the end result might be the same where perhaps maybe you aren't working right, like maybe you know that you went your life to look like actually retiring and working for your local government where you know what, you're not making hardly any money

at all, like not enough of a wage to support a typical family. Or maybe you know that you want your life to look like you being more involved with your kids at their school, where you're gonna be helping out the teachers and helping out the school board, or something like that, where you're always showing up to the swim meets. Are friend Maggie, like that is how she is spending her time since she's been retired, Or maybe like literally it could just be you sitting on a

hammock and reading. I think that's totally fine as long as you have identified that that is a goal and that that is something you want to achieve as opposed to something that you're just trying to escape from. Granted, if you've worked really hard and you're the type of person who has been able to achieve early retirement, I'm not sure if you're going to be super happy without life.

I don't write like there's a certain amount of intentment, uh that that would require, and folks have varying degrees of that. It comes down to to your personality. But regardless of what your ultimate goal might be, just make sure that you have that identified for yourself and that will shape everything else that leads to it. Yeah. No, I think there's there's some great thoughts my friend and I just you know, I think when the stock market is in bear market territory and when inflation is just

running them uck, it's going to change. Of course, everybody, the best plans of of folks, they're going to have

to readjust understandably. So especially if if that's that's the only goal, right, Like, if they haven't identified an actual goal and all they've looked at are the numbers, if if they only know they're not if all they know is that they have to hit x of their annual expensive if all they know is that they have to reach the point to where their investments can you know, four percent of that can cover their expenses for the year. And then the market tanks it completely, It flips your

world upside down. And it does not surprise me one bit that there are folks who are experiencing some sort of quitters remorse, some great resign resignation remorse, because if there is a greater goal outside of just the numbers, I think that could be enough to spur you on to continue to do the hard work. But but yeah, like in the middle of a bear market like this, you're probably probably questioning everything if you don't have that right.

I hope that the Fire movement in general use it this as like a growing learning moment and like you said, maybe I can teach you some humility mature because the movement as a whole, again, like we said, has so many good things going on and has it has really accelerated the concept of personal finance and how we talk

about it. But at the same time, there are a lot of people who may be bought into something that now appears to be a bill of goods that they're gonna have a hard time achieving, and so, uh, maybe that isn't actually what you want or need to be

sold anyway, that's kind of what we're saying. So hopefully this episode has made you rethink maybe the concept of fire, consider your work in a different light, and and think about other ways to achieve some of those goals, those life goals that you have aside from just bagging work in as little time as humanly possible. Totally all right, man, let's get back to the beer that you and I enjoyed this episode. This was just a kiss, which that's

a song. Do you know that song? It sounds like the Killer song, but it's know you're thinking of somebody told me or that way. Yeah, I just know it's it's a Lady Annabelle Um or a lady A they changed their name. Um, it's a it's a song by them. I don't really know. I just know it's a song by them. You know. I went to the high school with two of the bandmates, and I did not know that lived in the same neighborhood as this guy's literally play guitar next to one of the dudes. I keep

stepping it up, but it literally dated their sister. No, but I'm not necessarily gonna recommend that song like I'm gonna recommend this beer. Uh, this was a food or aged says on Ale with orange blossom, flowers and honey. I gotta say this is quite the label. It's got like a ton of bright, sunny, fresh colors going on here. Yeah, well, just like the beer did. Right. The beer was was floral, but it was earthy. The orange vibes gave it like some brightness but just a can reflects, but just a kiss,

just a little bit. So I I love a good funky says On. This was less on the funky side, more on the floral and at tracy side. But um, you know what, Seeson's are one of those dials that we don't have enough of. And I really enjoyed this one. I thought I had a little bit of oak vibe coming in as well from that food or not as much as I would have loved, but I could have taken a little bit more, just a kiss of that.

So but overall I'd say, a really good beer. You can't not drink this and tell me this isn't refreshing. First quenching, even though it's even though it's but yeah, we will link to some of the different folks who we mentioned during this episode. You can find our show notes up on our website at how the Money dot com. If you have been listening to the show for a while and you have not left us a review, we would be incredibly thankful if you did that for us.

That's not something we've been pushing folks to do recently. But if you have enjoyed this episode, if you listen to the show and you feel like it's able to broaden your horizons, if if it's allowed you to think about perhaps work or your money in a different way, we would love for you to share your thoughts and share how this podcast has helped you. And you can do that at Apple Podcasts or wherever it is that you listen to your podcast real, real quick and easy

and Spotify. You don't you don't actually get a writer of you, but you can leave a star. We just click that star. We appreciate it in advance. But Matt, that's going to do it for this episode. Until next time, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,