Debt Snowball vs. Debt Avalanche Approach To Paying Down Debt #085

of that guy. We're coming for you, Dave. Dave's got some good things to say, right I don't I definitely don't wanna tear Dave down. Um, there's there's actually an article in Money magazine recently that kind of was going after him. And I will say, Dave not my favorite person, not my favorite person, and I disagree with him on a lot of things. So disagree with him on things

except for this one thing that he does. Okay, yeah, but no, I feel like he has helped so many people, and in particular to get out of debt quickly, that I would think twice before speaking harsh words against him, just because of how much of a good effect he has had in a lot of people's lives. I think tackling this topic of how you pay down your debt quickly and which of these methods is most effective is gonna be good. It's gonna be good for us to

talk about. Yeah. Dave Ramsey, he's like the godfather for personal finance for me, man, he basically ushered me into this entire space like ten years ago. So Hill maybe at least a little tip of the cap kind of launching my financial journey to a certain extent. And sometimes there's a teacher that's really great for for a while and then you kind of moved past, you know, what they have to offer. But yeah, I'm really interested to tackle this topic today. It should be fun, Matt. Before

we get to that, I wanted to frugal versus cheap? Yeah, I kind of want to ask you a question. I see that written down here. So is it frugal or cheap for me to forego buying my kids school pictures? M Well, most folks know that I'm a photographer, right, so I'm curious what most folks think, you know, Like, do they think I'm gonna fall on the side of no, you're being way too cheap. You gotta get those pictures. Or if I'm like, well, I'm a photographer, I can

just take my own pictures. I'm frugal. Uh. That being said, I think you are being frugal because I'm with you. We we only rarely purchase the pictures if they're just outstanding. Otherwise, when we get the little link and they say that you can go look at the pictures, you know, I look at them and then I screenshot them, and I'm able to preserve the memory that that picture was taken and you can see a little bit of it, and

they got the water mark. It's got the watermark on it, so I'm never going to print it out, but I can still save it in photos on my computer, and I can still go back and see the cute smiles and kind of bring back all those feelings without having to actually pay thirty bucks for an eight by ten. You know, you know what I'm saying. The school pictures are crazy expensive, and obviously, like someone comes out and spends a lot of time and and they do a

good job. They take good photos, and sometimes we do buy them though, I mean, if they're really good I mean, we've purchased them before because I'm like, I gotta have that. You know, it's just just too cute. The same here too. Yeah, we have to I've got We've definitely bought school photos in the past, but this year we were like, you

know what, We're not gonna do it. And part of the reason was because the girls had just been in a wedding and they're the just super adorable pictures that we just recently had, both of them, and so we're not going to spend the extra sixty bucks to get this picture package. It's not because I don't love the I mean, obviously I went through to look at the pictures and they were freaking adorable, and it was really hard. I was like, oh, maybe it's worth the money. I

want it. But yeah, we decided to forgot it because we've got pictures from a lot of other events, and you know, phones have gotten so good. I'm taking good pictus of my kids all the time, so plus, you know, a good photographer, and anytime our families get together and I bring along the camera, we always try to get a decent family shot or try to get all the girls together, get them smiling, looking in the right direction

and that that works pretty well. Yeah, so I think if you're sitting there between the ferns, like looking all perfect, but it's a little more real life when they're kind of screaming on each other in in mid slap. Yeah yeah, I know, right, get the lifelike poses of just crazy things happening. But yeah, I think for people that get that email about getting their kids school pictures, certainly, sometimes

you want those little wallet sized pictures. You want to be able to hand them out to your friends and family members. And we've gotten them too before and they make great gifts oftentimes the four by sixes. Put them in a frame, give them to grandma, that kind of thing. But just don't feel obligated like you have to, especially if you already have good picks of of your kids from other outings. Yeah, and a quick tip if you do want to go ahead and purchase those pictures is

to see if you can purchase the digital file. A lot of times they'll charge a certain amount, maybe even five bucks more than than one of the more expensive prints, So like an eight by ten might be like thirty bucks, like I mentioned, but you can get the file for thirty five bucks. Always up for that because you can spend a little bit more and then you have that file and you can obviously do whatever you want with it. But then go to a website like m picks dot com.

That's m p i x dot com and they're a fantastic lab where you can get some really high quality prints at a consumer price point. But at the same time, lab is it's really good. They've got an entire professional line and a lot of the professional photographers that I know use them for their professional fancy prints that they're able to up charge and obviously make a profit. I don't want to give away all the secrets, but yeah, check out MPIs dot com. Good to get some of

that insider knowledge, all right, I like it. Okay, let's quickly mention the beer that we're having on the show today, Matt. This is maple Vanilla Copra Kai, another one by Southern Grist Brewing Company. And thanks to Jamie for sending us peers yet again. This is the second one this week. What's the deal with copra Kai? So like cobra Kai, Like that's a karate kid. Yeah, and so it's like the do they do copro with the p Just so that they don't get sued. Probably, okay, that's my assumption.

That was Okay, is there what or I didn't know if copra kai was an actual thing like something different, not that I know of, But you know what, I'm gonna reach back around to Jamie and ask him why they named it. That you should also ask him how he made this delicious beer because it smells like an entire dessert in my glass right here. So I'm excited for us to talk about this at the end of

the episode. Yeah, Bouquet flavors. Alright, Matt out onto the topic at hand, and we're discussing the best way to pay down debt. We're debating the debt snowball versus debt avalanche approach. And the problem is that Americans are in debt and lots of it, student loan debt, car loan debt, credit card debt, mortgage debt, and it can be overwhelming and acting that debt in your life takes a toll not only off of your money issues, but it takes

a massive weight off your mind. And there was a study that they did in Singapore recently that found that folks who had massive mortgage utility and municipal debt paid down by a charity, they performed better in cognitive function tests. Anxiety disorders massively decreased, and the ability to forego instant gratification also increased. So not having this debt in your life, not only does it make your finances start to dear,

it makes your brain function better. And I just thought that was like fascinating that having a lot of debt in our lives has terrible effects on our brains. Yeah, Joel. One of the things they mentioned was that how the real cost of being in some stantial amounts of debt, like that, how it's not completely reflected in the numbers. It's not completely reflected in how much you owe or how much you make or your net worth. You see it as well, like like you said, in your mental health.

And it's unfortunate that that total effects is oftentimes overlooked because it is mental. But fact is, you know, no one in all likelihood is gonna be showing up to pay off your debt. And we don't take the stance that all debt is bad, but if you are rolling in consumer debts and that's stressing you out, Assessing which of the different strategies to take can be helpful. Yeah, because the quicker you can eliminate even just one debt

out of your life. Right, there's that breathing room. It's gonna lessen your overall anxiety in relation to your debt. And first we want to mention that if you're in overwhelming amounts of debt, well it's really important to consider getting credit counseling from a place like NFCC and you can check them out at NFCC dot org. And if your debt exceeds fift of your annual income, well that is in all likelihood the best place for you to head to get some free credit counseling from your local

NFCC affiliate. One other thing to consider before you know, we kind of dive into the different approaches to paying down debt. But let's talk for a second to about your interest rate. If you have a good amount of debts, you want to consider a balanced transfer. Credit cards will oftentimes offer a zero percent for elemented amount of time. Transferring your debt over to a new card like that will allow you some breathing room, give you some time to kind of figure out your approach and how you

are going to pay down your debt. If you can't find a good balance transfer, consider calling your credit card company directly and see if you can get your interest rate lowered. From that same point, it's good to kind of go into those conversations with some knowledge. You want to do your homework ahead of time. But we've talked about this before, Joel, but it never hurts to ask, and you're not going to get that lower interest rate

uh and pay less unless you ask for it. So in a minute, we're gonna talk about the debt snowball. We're gonna talk about the debt avalanche, some pros and cons to both, But first we're gonna take a quick break. All right, Matt, let's get right into it. First. We'll talk about the debt snowball approach. And this approach is all about psychology, not as much about math, but psychology, as it turns out, is crucial when it comes to

how we handle our money. In fact, it's often more important than just the nuts and bolts and knowing how the math works. And in fact, just like we talked about with that Singapore study that we mentioned at the beginning of the show, it's pretty obvious that debt has a clear effect on our psyche, and the debt snowball approach is actually an attempt to kind of maximize positive psychological impact of debt paid down as opposed to the

mathematical and financial best approach to paying down your debt. Yeah, this is the Dave Ramsey approach. And the argument often goes is that if it's all about the math, then you wouldn't be in debt in the first place. You know, if you're paying attention to the numbers, the interest rates the debt, you would know from the very outset that going into debt isn't going to work out for you. And so let's go ahead now and talk about the

way it works and the debt snowball approach. You are going to pay the minimums on all your balances, but then you're going to attack and pay off your debt with the smallest balance first. Once that debt is eliminated completely, you get to roll those payments that we're going to that small debt to the debt with the next smallest balance.

And so it's called the debt snowball effect because essentially, think of you know, you start off with a small balance and then you roll it over to the next largest balance and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger, not unlike a snowball that you're rolling down the hill. Makes sense, Yeah, it's I mean really psychologically that makes a lot of sense, right, because let's say you have seven overall debts that you're looking to pay off, and you get a quick win by paying the first one

off because the balance is super low. It feels good, It feels good, and then you're motivated to do just a little bit more and you actually have a little bit more money then to put towards that second debt because that the other one, that first one, it's gone. Now, yeah, you don't just have more money to put towards it, but you have more steam, like you've got that one

men um rolling to Yeah. Completely, So I think this path can provide wins more quickly along the way, can keep you motivated, and interestingly enough, the most studies actually show that the results are more favorable with a debt snowball approach than the debt avalanche approach, which makes sense because when we're factoring in the psychology of how we approach our money and our debts, I mean, this is the kind of strategy that keeps someone engaged towards paying

down their debts as quickly as possible, whereas the debt avalanche, which we're gonna talk about in just a second, doesn't quite have that same effect. Yeah, those are the legit studies to like Harvard, you know, all the good schools, not the not the crappy schools. And one my Kanasas State University coming out with that. You know, how don't you hate k s U. Dog that's a good spot. So the debt snowball it makes the most sense from my psychological standpoint, but it doesn't when it comes to

the number's jole. And that's when sort of the math nerds will jump all over your case. And what they would propose is for you to look at the debt avalanche. So why don't you tell us about that? All right? So the debt avalanche is all about math and not psychology, so kind of the complete opposite of the debt snowball approach. When you take the debt avalanche approach again, you're still paying the minimums on every single balance except for one.

But the debt that you're prioritizing paying off is the debt that has the highest interest rate, as opposed to your debt that has the lowest overall balance, And there's certainly a chance that your highest interest rate debt could also be your lowest balance, in which case win win. You're kind of tackling both methods at the same time.

But yeah, the debt avalanche approach is for the math nerds out there that can still be just as focused paying off debt without that psychological benefit of paying off certain debts more quickly. All right, Joel, quick question for you. Then the snow metaphor with the snowball makes sense, right, Like you've got your quickly gaining steam starting off with a small little snowball, and it rolls over and gets bigger and bigger and bigger. That equates to the size

of the debt that you're attacking. But how does it work with the avalanche then? I guess like you're starting off big? Yeah, I guess so. I don't necessarily think that that, uh, that perfect metaphor. No, it's definitely an imperfect metaphor, that's for sure. And I don't know where if there's like any like yellow snow involved in this metamor or anything like that. I think those are like

tidle loans completely away from the gotcha. I think we could probably come up with some other really cool metaphors when it comes to snow for paying down your debt. But yeah, I think someone just kind of tried to come up with a cute alternative to the debt snowball.

But with avalanche, I guess you're kind of focusing on the large interest rates, kind of going after the big impact stuff first, and then by the end of it, you're kind of focusing you know, I guess the end of the avalanche, there's just a little bit of snow trickling down the mountain at the very end, and maybe that's your smaller interest rate loans that kind of dies out right. Yeah. Yeah, So really, the debt avalanche approach, it could prevent you from attacking your debt as intently

as you might otherwise be inclined to do. But if you are a really good planner and you can stay the course, well, the debt avalanche, or sometimes it's also called debt laddering, well that's likely the best approach for you because you're going to pay off your debts in a little bit less time, and you're gonna pay less

overall in interest to your creditors, so Joel. Overall, if I had to pick like one over the other, I think I'm gonna end up on like on team snowball because for most people, even though it doesn't make the most sense from a financial standpoint, when you're only looking at the numbers, Like we said earlier, it's not all

about the numbers. There's so much psychology involved. And I think for a lot of people, in particular, if you're struggling with debt and you've been working for a while at trying to pay down your debt, I think in those cases specifically, that the debt snowball is where it's at. Yeah, I think up until probably last year, I would have been team Avalanche all the way, and I would have all about the numbers. I would completely disagreed with you, because I do think, like, why would you pay more

in interest than you have to? I don't like that idea. I don't like the idea of paying down a five percent debt first when you have a nine credit card chilling there like that. That doesn't make any sense to me. And so I think I still probably reside a little bit more on team Avalanche side and paying off your highest interest rate debts as quickly as possible, and then

moving on to those lower interest rate debts. But yeah, recently, one of the loan balances on one of my rental properties is getting pretty low, and it's are you feeling it? I am to pay it off? I am. But the thing is, the interest rate is so low that it really doesn't make sense for me to prioritize the payoff, and so I'm just having to kind of sit on my hands and forget about it and not even remind myself that we're getting to that point because there are

other priorities in my life. I don't want to focus on that at this point in time. It would make more sense for me to put my hard earned dollars towards the market. Yeah, towards in the market, or towards a higher interest rate loan that I have on another rental property. But I completely understand the itch, especially as you get close to paying something off, it just kind of, oh, you want to just finish it off. I think it is a difficult decision, but really picking your path and

sticking to it makes a whole lot of sense. Yeah, And I'll argue in favor of the debt avalanche because I think there's are some situations where it does make sense, because the argument will go against it that well, if you're paying attention to the numbers, right, you like you would have never ended up in debt in the first place. But I think there are a lot of folks who for a period in their life, maybe when they were younger,

they didn't they didn't pay attention to the numbers. They didn't pay attention to how much they're spending, how much debt they were accruing, and there's a moment where they wake up. They kind of have an enlightening, whether that be uh, they're getting married, or they read a great book, or they see maybe what their friends are doing with their money, and all of a sudden they're realizing that, oh, wait a minute, I'm doing some terrible things with my money.

And in those cases where there's a switch, like when something happens like that and the the lights kind of turn on in their head, if they can be disciplined and stick with their plan, I think the debt avalanche makes total sense in those scenarios. Matt, that's a good point. And you know what, I think there might actually be

a third option here for people something to consider. And I don't think I've ever heard anyone else ever talk about this, and we should kind of come up with our own name for it, maybe the debt snow lanch uh snow Cone method. So it's kind of a little more hybrid approach. And we will tell you what we

mean by that right after the break. All right, Matt, in a second, we're going to talk about how to actually begin these methods, how to implement them into your lives in order to kind of start crushing that debt. But first let's kind of talk about this hybrid approach that we think might make a lot of sense for folks. Yeah, Joel, you know, it is a sort of a hybrid approach, and you know, I don't think we're original thinkers here.

Sure a lot of folks have done this, but paying off that really high interest rate debt first and then prioritize those balances that have the smaller balances next. For instance, high in straight credit card debt that you might have, that's what you're gonna want to cut most quickly. In a car note at five PC isn't a priority in the same way, But once you have those credit cards

out of the way. You can then work towards paying off your car just to kind of be rid of it once that balance starts getting lower, even if you

have student loan debts, say at seven percent. So I think in this hybrid approach, what you're doing is you're saying, what's the disparity and interest rate between that and the rest of my debts, And if it's a big disparity, like if you have that one credit card that's at nineteen interest, you're going to want to prioritize that first, no matter what if all the rest of your debts fall in that five to seven percent range exactly. Basically

you're looking for an outlier that you want to eliminate first. Yeah, and then it doesn't really matter what your order is after you pay that one off first, Right, it doesn't matter if you then tackle the five percent debt instead of the seven percent debt. That's okay, that's less meaningful in the grand scheme of things. But paying off that really high interest rate debt as quickly as possible, that's going to help move the needles that you pay less

interest overall. Yeah. What those same studies, with that same research show though, is that it does matter for you to make sure and focus on a single debts. Those who trying to kind of spread out their payments not just the minimums, but kind of additional payments across a whole sort of portfolio of debts that they had were much less likely to successfully get out of debt versus

paying towards a specific debt with laser light focus. Regardless of the approach, so you could be paying towards the balance that was the smallest, or you could be paying down the balance that had the highest interest rate, doesn't really matter. As long as you were focusing on that one singular debts, you had a much higher chance of getting out of debt altogether. And this again goes back

to that same study, Joel. But the weight and the impact that multiple debts like that can have on you mentally, it's just draining, is it's it's you know. One of the things they mentioned in the article as well was that how it's a bandwidth tax that kind of SAPs on your mental energies and your ability to think straight

to perform normal tasks effectively. And certainly we've seen this in other areas in our life as well, when we try to multitask do multiple things all at once, Chances are you're not gonna do any of those things that well. But the interesting thing is, we all think we know how to do it. It's true, we all think we're good multitaskers, but most of us actually are terrible or

terrible at it. But if you can just focus on that one thing and does knock it out of the park, it's just gonna be way more effective, and you're gonna see a lot more progress happen sooner. Yeah. Man. Interestingly enough, when you kind of crush the numbers and you look at how long it takes people to pay off their debts and how much overall interest they pay in the debt snowball versus debt avalanche method, it really doesn't end up being that big of a disparity, which I thought

was really interesting. Sounds like you're about to cross over to the team debt snowball side. Yeah, I feel like with psychology being such a major impact on people's continued ability to keep going down that path of paying down their debt, well, yeah, I mean, debt snowball actually really does make a lot of sense, and it's interesting just

doing more research for this episode. I was kind of struck by the fact that that psychology factor is way, way, way more important than even I gave it credence for in the beginning, because I mean, I know that's important. I know that's important in personal finances, the way people think, and just kind of those strongly held beliefs that we have in the back of our brain that we don't even know exist. They're huge in the way we approach

paying off debt or spending or all of those things. Right, But I didn't realize that it's as powerful as it is. It's kind of jarring how much power our brains have over us when it comes to, you know, how we spend, but then also how we paid on our debt. So at this point, what we're saying is to have some self awareness, know yourself enough to know which these approaches would work the best for you, because it doesn't matter

all that much when it comes to the numbers. But what does matter is that you actually do the deed right, like that you finished the drill, and that you're able to get out of that debt. Both of these approaches can be helpful. So what's most important to you, though, is that you prioritize paying down your debts at all and getting started. Yeah, just a really quick thought on that, Matt. Let's say you want to start running, but you've lacked

a little bit of the motivation. Well, there are all these kind of little tricks that you can do in order to make yourself more likely to actually get out there and and run your first mile. If you lay out your shoes and your running gear ahead of time, before you even go to bed, well, when you wake up and you stare at it, there's a huge chance that you're actually gonna put it on and maybe go

for a job. But if you say no, I'll you know, I'll get it out of the drawer in the morning, Well, there's a good chance that you're going to sleep in. And I think the same is true when it comes to debt repayment. If you can get fully on board with one strategy and actually get the ball rolling, well, the likelihood is you're gonna stick with this and you're

gonna make progress. And once you see progress, it's going to be a self fulfilling prophecy that you are going to continue down that path and you're gonna crush your debt. And so yeah, let's go through kind of helping people figure out how to get started going down one of these paths. So, Joel, the first step is that you

want to get organized. Go ahead and write down all the debts that you owe, So start with the minimum payments, but then we'll go ahead and right down your interest rate and the total balances due for each of those debts. Because regardless of which approach that you're gonna take, you need to know, well what which one has the actual smallest balance, or you need to know which one has

the largest interest rate. You gotta be organized, and Joel, just like you mentioned kind of setting out the shoes, setting out your gym shorts, you gotta line everything up and have it sitting there so that you can attack it. Yeah, and so either way you slice it, whether you're going debt snowball or debt avalanche or that kind of hybrid approach, the snow lanch that we talked about, creat a repayment schedule that funnels all of your extra money towards that

debt that you're targeting. Under your favorite strategy, you're gonna want to make sure that all of the other debts in question that you're paying the minimums on and then as much extra cash as you have in your budget, you're funneling that straight towards that debt that you hate the most that you're planning to crush. Yeah, man, knock that thing out. And then after maybe each of those debts that you knock out completely, it might be worth

considering rewarding yourself at that point. Don't let little mistakes completely derail you. You want to make sure that you're able to see some forward progress. Like That's the problem with that is that a lot of times it can be this invisible thing that's really tough to quantify, and in reality, like as a human being, what you experience is that you're depriving yourself of the things that you used to spend money on, and you don't really feel

that you're doing anything. So sometimes having these little small reward is a tangible way for you to remind yourself physically that, oh, yeah, I'm paying down my debt right. Because so much of our currency, so much of our money today is digital, and it's not like you have a stack of cash that's growing on your dresser and you're able to see that and feel like you're you're becoming better off, or that you're handling your money better.

It's just digital, it's just number that shows up on your phone, and it can be tough sometimes to feel the actual impact of that. Yeah, some sort of little reward can I think help you stay engaged in the fight to pay off your debt. Whether it's a latte on a Saturday morning at your favorite coffee shop or a new pair of Chuck Taylor tennis shoes. You know

that that would probably be mine. But yeah, I think something like that can actually provide that boost, like, Okay, cool, I can't wait till my next little reward when debt number two gets paid off. And I think it's really helpful, Like we need little we need moments of feedback in these areas of our lives, and if if you're not able to share it with somebody in particular, providing little rewards,

little benefits, little boosts for yourself or reminders. Yeah, it's so helpful, right, And you mentioned sharing it with someone else as well. I mean, and I think that's another great way of moving forward with pain down your debt is have somebody else who might be in a similar life stage as you or have similar goals that you're trying to achieve because you can. Again, you can remind each other not through just these little treats and rewards,

but also through encouragement and spurring each other on. Joel, I mean going back to your your running analogy. Even though you don't run no way, you're never gonna see me running. Man, I stay, I stay on two wheels. But when you're running with a buddy, that is going to be a much more effective way to train and to stick to a training schedule or hitting a specific time. If you're trying to set like a new personal record for yourself, that's another way that will allow you to

stick with it and to stay motivated. And as you're on this path to paying down your debt as quickly as possible, you know, like we said, these are all great approaches, but the biggest thing, the biggest thing that you have to be aware of is that you can't start creating new debt again in the process or at

the end of this process. You can't pay off a credit card and then start working on your next debt and then, you know what, start charging that first credit card that you paid off, start charging it up again. That defeats the purpose and puts you in a very similar bind. You have to take a hard look at the root causes of what led you to getting into this debt in the first place. And Joel, for a lot of people like that, root cause might be having a credit card to begin with. Right, Like you and I,

we talk a good bit about credit card bonuses. I love those sign of bonuses and and getting the big rewards that way. But for a lot of folks that might be temptation to overspend and consume on a scale that doesn't fit with their budget, and so in that case it might be wise for them to not have a credit card. There are some different benefits like that that you can use to your advantage that can work for you, but just don't allow the same tools to

work against you and cause you more harm than good. Yeah, if you know the credit cards in your possession don't end well if if you know that it ends with a shopping spree online or you go to your local mall or whatever. I don't know the mall still exists. I feel millennials are killing malls, right, that's what I hear. But if you Amazon shopping spree, yeah, yeah, However you use your credit card. However, you use it poorly, you

need to be aware of that. And if you feel like you can't handle credit card usage, well, well then you need to cut them out of your life because it's just not worth the potential harm that could befall you from using your credit cards frequently and often, landing you in more and more debt. So true, Let's now go ahead get back to our beer. Yeah, man, So this was maple vanilla Copra Kai that we had from

Southern Grist Brewing Company. Thanks to Jamie over there for sending this one over to us, dude, this was one of the best beers we found on the show in a while. This beer was harmonious. I would say it had the elements of maple and vanilla perfectly blended into this milk stout, and in my opinion, it was the absolutely perfect specimen of what a milk stout should taste like. This was fantastic. Yeah, and this is only a seven

percent beer. A lot of stouts that have a lot of flavor like this ten to be boozier and bigger, which makes them a little more difficult to drink, and this one was not that way. It's it's really easy to drink a lot of amazing flavors. Since I'm holding the can right now, I can, I'm kind of sniff in it and it almost has this cake batter quality to it, smells really sweet, really delicious. You almost had like a like one of those maple doughnut kind of

vibe going on. Like like, there's this concept of the pastry stout where people are putting donut kind of additions into their souths brownie additions, all these kind of interesting, funky dessert like factors into their stouts, and this one kind of had, like, man, some really cool elements, some really tasty notes, but it wasn't overwhelming in your face either.

It was like these awesome flavors in perfect balance. Yeah, like you said, harmonious with it being a milk stout, It's just got that smooth, creamy, milk shake like nature to it, you know what I'm saying. Fantastic Beer. We're kind of gushing all over this thing, so we should probably go ahead and cut it short. But Fantastic Brewery, Southern Grist. I looked them up as well because we since we had on the last episode, I wanted to see what other beers they had man, and they have

such an amazing variety. A lot of places will just rock the I PA is really hard, or they'll have tons of sours. So the Grist kind of had it all. They had i pas, they had sours, they had some some German styles that you don't see a lot of hip new breweries made. But then they've got some awesome big stouts like this as well. And so yeah, props to Southern Grist. That just means we're gonna have to try more Southern Grist beers. We just need to go

up there. Have you been up to Nashville anytime for like a day trip or something. It's been a while. Man, it's a great town, but it's been a minute that's I've been there. But yeah, I feel like there's some really good breweries up there now, and it's just like a really fun town to be in. Good live music. I just remember hanging out on Broadway in Nashville going to see some kind of old school country music with like pedal steels and upright bases and stuff. I mean,

that's totally my jam. Go buy some boots or something something Southern country. Now. I still wear my Chucks, but as Nashville. Is that like day trip territory for Atlanta. Yeah, it's about four hours from where we are. It's not bad at all. I might have to do it, dude, Let's do it, all right, I'm in alright. Quick snow ball avalanche recap debt snowball. It is all about the psychology,

it's not about the math. You're gonna prioritize pain down the debts with the smallest balance if you're in it for the quick wins and gaining that momentum, versus the debt avalanche, where you're gonna be focused on the math, not the psychology. And in this case, you are prioritizing pain on the debts that have the highest interest rate because you're a nerd and you can't get past those numbers. Yeah, Matt, that debt avalanche strategy particularly good for robots and extreme

planners and those that have a lot of discipline, right. Yeah, you gotta know yourself exactly. Yeah. And so the last thing that we need to note real quick is the most important part of both of these strategies. It's focusing on paying down one debt at a time to the exclusion of all the others. You're gonna pay the minimums on every single debt, but there's only one debt that you're going to prioritize highly. And so either way you go, make sure you're taking that approach. That's going to be

the most motivating factor. That's going to kind of give you that tunnel vision and it's gonna help keep you motivated because you're targeted in specifically on that one debt and you're going after obliterating it at all costs. And Joel, you cannot underestimate the power of focus when it comes to your debt. Do not try to multitask your debt payments. But that is going to be it for this episode. You can find our show notes up on our website

at how some money dot com. Yeah, and if you're into leaving reviews for awesome podcasts, totally feel free to do that for us. We would greatly appreciate it. And if you think Matt and I have room for improvement, please drop us a line. You can go to how to money dot com slash do Better. We would love to hear from you. All right, buddy, until next time, Best friends Out, Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out,