Welcome to Out of Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking buying nothing to gain everything with Liz Chai.
Yeah, so, I don't care how much money you.
Make, right it is still possible.
To completely spend it all to find yourself at the end of the month with no money in the bank. Studies show that even forty five percent of folks who are high wage earners like so, these are folks who are making more than one hundred thousand dollars that they are living paycheck to paycheck as well. And obviously there are some financial situations that could be resolved with a slightly higher income, but more often than not, we are
the problem. We are our own worst enemies because of the ridiculous amounts of stuff.
That we buy.
And that is why we're excited to be speaking with Liz Chai. Liz is the author of How to Buy Essentially Nothing for a Year, and actually she wrote and illustrated the book. As Liz is a graphic designer, it's a joy to read through. It's beautiful, and she's actually an old friend, which I'm sure we'll touch on a little bit later as well. But when we heard that she was writing a book about her personal journey with consumption,
we knew that we had to have her on. Hopefully a lot of folks will be able to be inspired by her journey as well as to leave this episode with some practical tips on how it is that they can buy fewer things. Liz, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
Hey guys, glad to have you Liz. This is going to be fun and so much to this. I think I'm just kind of curious from a voyeuristic standpoint too, to know exactly what it's like to go through a whole year with buying nothing. So we'll get into some of those questions to satisfy my curiosity. But our first question for everyone who comes on the show is what do they like to splur John, and I'm particularly interested
in what your answer is to this. Ours is craft beer, because but we're still prioritizing save being investing for the future, even while we spend potentially more than we showed on craft beer. What's that for you?
Well, since I don't allow myself to buy material things, I usually if I'm going to splurge, it's going to be on an experience, So at the very top of my list is traveling to Copenhagen. I will buy a ticket to Copenhagen. That's my splurge. And fine dining is another thing I will.
I love so min Copenhagen.
Specifically, you've combined the two because you mentioned that in your book, right, So the ability to not necessarily think twice about taking that trip as well as making that reservation. Yeah, nice, nice, Okay. What is it that made you want to go down this radical path, because at least here in modern America, it's it's a radical path to take where you're attempting to consume almost nothing. Did you come across a book,
did you have an intense conversation with a friend? What was it that set you down this path?
Gosh, there were so many different actors that led to the decision. When I'm I decided to not buy anything for a year, and that was a New Year's resolution. And usually at the end of every year, I sit down and I make my lists of things that I'm gonna do in the coming year and my goals and all this stuff. You know, it's like a I call it the dreamatorium, where I sit down and just daydream.
But this particular year I was living in and a moment of over abundance, it just felt like I had too much, Like I had everything I needed, and I started almost feeling guilty because I was just like, I have everything I need, Why do I keep buying stuff?
And I had learned about minimalism, and I had, you know, I'd read Murray Condo's book, and I had followed the minimalists for a while, and I've had always done a very good job of only thrifting things or you know, not spending too much money necessarily, but I still had
so many material things. I had so much stuff. And so originally, when I decided to stop buying things for a year, it was because I wanted to experience what it was like to be satisfied with what I already had, and I wanted to be able to like live with less. I didn't want to just continue like gaining more and more and more. So that's that's originally what inspired the New Year's resolution.
Okay, so why you're going to thinking through these things? What makes you go down the hardcore route as opposed to making subtle changes.
Like why like a normal person?
Yeah, right, exactly, Liz, Why are you so not normal.
Well, I will say part of my personality is just that I love rules and structure, So that's you know why I sit down and make my lists of stuff. Here's what you're not allowed to do. So part of it is that, and that's sort of just the way my brain works.
But also so.
I've noticed over the years, and I've been around even I've experienced life with an addict and have seen how difficult it is for someone to make a huge change in their life if they don't make a huge change in their life. So just drop by drop, it's not going to make an impact necessarily on your heart. So that's why I decided to sort of go all in. And I talk about this a little bit in the book. But if you've ever like gone to work out, I do weight training.
I try to abort it personally.
So if you've ever like gone to the gym and like you select your weight and you start working out and realize it's too it's too light, it makes sense to stop and increase your weight because like, what would even be the point of going to the gym if you're not actually gonna break a sweat while you're there. It's like a waste of your time. So sort of have that same mentality where it's like, if I'm if I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna go all out, I'm gonna challenge myself.
Let's do it right.
Yeah, So it makes it and it really created this paradigm shift where I completely have a different view of material possessions now.
So like subtle rudder shifts, like a one percent change gradually over time, does take us in a different direction. You're saying, you kind of said it takes a major change to make a major change like that. Explain that to me, and how do you actually do that? Cause it sounds nice to make a radical change, and where at the beginning of a new year here where people are like, hey, radical change sounds kind of awesome, But those radical changes can be more difficult to stick with. Two.
Yeah, absolutely so a while ago, and this was back so I lived in Atlanta and that's how I know the both of you. Yeah, and before I moved out to where I live now is Portland. A friend of mine challenged me to the minimalists do a game where you get rid of something every day. On day one, you get rid of one thing on day two, you get rid of two things, and you do this for a month. And so that was my introduction to the game, and I actually still continue to play this game almost
every day. I have a spreadsheet with a macro and it tallies all the things I've gotten rid of and just another super nerdy thing.
That I Yeah, you might need to share with me because I might want to jump on that. Okay, So do you also put an estimated Sorry, you're giving a nice reply here, and I totally am jumping in, but does your mac Does it also include a total value as well? Like, do you even if you give it away? Do you put an estimated dollar amount on there? Or do you only do that for items that you sell?
It has a few It's changed over the years, but every year it tallies the quantity of items I've gotten rid of. And that's you know, whether I sell something or give it away, or to recycle it or throw it away or donate it all of all of the options. And now it also includes a tally for the amount of money I earned if I sold something, yeah, or the amount of store credit that I got I exchanged it.
Yeah, you got to.
Track the donation for tax purposes. Too, right. I also about that.
But I love the fact that this is something you're keeping up with over a long period of time, because we talked about this a few weeks ago. But there are a few things that we look at over the scope of not only multiple years, but even multiple decades or god forbid it like a lifetime, and certain expenses we think, oh gosh, it takes how much money to actually live, But we don't normally look at things that
far zoomed out. But I think by doing that that could be incredibly encouraging when it comes to thinking about the stuff we own, trying to find ways to cut back on that. But yeah, sorry to interrupt it. It sounds like this is something you revisit every year where you're looking to continue to unload goods.
Every year. I aim to get rid of as many things as it is the year, so twenty twenty four I will try to get rid of twenty twenty four things at least. And that's been easy, honestly, if I'm keeping track. Some of it is small things and some of it is big things. And that kind of goes back to what you were asking about the slow trickle.
When I first started playing this, game. I was pretty intimidate by, like how am I going to get rid of four hundred things in a month, And my friend just encouraged me to start small, so I, you know, I'd get rid of Oh I've been hanging on to this business card for a long time, or here's a paper clip or a battery or something, and that's this one small thing, and it helped me to start to get used to playing this game, and it reduces the
value of material things in your in your mind. But then I've been playing the game for a long time and I would then, you know, this was back in my buying years. I would go replenish that stuff. So that's slow trickle. I was barely putting a dent in like the amount of things that I that I owned or possessed. So I might get rid of four hundred things in a month, But then.
That was just the junk drawer, Yeah exactly.
It's most people have about that much stuff just like laying around their house that they can get rid of and they wouldn't even notice it. And I have had multiple estate sales even where I get get rid of things that I bought, and I don't remember what most of those things are, which really says a lot about how we value our stuff. If you were to have a garage sale and get rid of a bunch of stuff, you probably won't even remember what it is that you parted.
Ways with you that's true, It's right, Okay.
Well, one of the things you say in your book too, is that the fact that you actually feel better when you are not consuming more, when you're not buying anything, so you actually began to view material possessions as burdensome, like the way you write about it's almost like it
was taking up space in your mind. Can you kind of explain the shift that took place when you went from seeing it as something that maybe you used to get an endorphin rush, but then it's like you saw it through a different lens and all of a sudden it became this weight.
Yeah.
I think a lot of people have a different relationship
with stuff than I do. But I think it's pretty common for people to get that endorphin rush or they're trying to feel like a void, and so they might be purchasing purchasing stuff mindlessly so that they can feel better for a moment, or to feel a sense of control, like I know, I had a friend who would buy every single issue in like a like a DVD collection or like a book series, Like he had every single one and even like the one with the gold foil
stamping that sort of thing. And you know, ultimately, and he admitted this too, but it's just he was really what he was buying was a sense of completeness in being able to have all of those things in full and like to have his shelves lined with like every every possible issue, game or whatever it was. I think he got all of those things. Honestly, we've all and there's like no shame to it. Like I you know, I've I've been a collector of stuff, you know, ever since I was a kid.
I worked out, we've all got our own things that were more on to whether yeah it's trinkets or limited release DVDs.
Or most people would be appalled if they knew that. Over the course of my life, I've owned hundreds and hundreds of vintage dresses.
So well, I want to ask you about that because that feels different because so much of the time when we're trying to curb consumption, what we're what we're looking to do is like stop Amazon purchases or just the knee jerk impulse spends because we're scrolling on social media or something like that. And I think that is a massive culprit for a lot of people today and just and they're like, where did the money go? What is actually in the package that showed up in my doorstep
a day or two later? The disconnect, I guess, But you're like, it's it's not the same thing. It's not like you're adding to a landfill when you're buying something used like vintage shopping or thrifting. Does that feel different to you? And was that harder to give up? Do you do any of that these days? Because if there's anybody I know who is more into like the vintage scene, I couldn't name them.
Well, there's a couple of different things happening here. So one of it. One of those things is I was buying vintage dresses excessively, Like nobody needs hundreds of vintage dresses. Nobody needs hundreds of dresses, you know, unless they, you know, are a fashion blogger or something like that, if it's relevant to what they do. But I could go a year without repeating. And there was something about that that does that does not feel good, even though I was
delighted in every single one of those dresses. You know, eventually I have sold a lot of those. I don't have that many dresses now. But I think one of the ways I justified it was by saying, well, I'm not contributing to fast fashion, I'm not adding to the landfill. But then later I learned more about the purchases that I was making. So you know, most sixties and seventies dresses are made out of polyester, which is plastic. It's like not good for the earth. That's not good for
you to even like wear on your body. And so in a way, it's still it's still maybe not good just because I wasn't, you know, buying all my clothes from the outlem all or whatever. I was still living in excess, and I was still not contributing in a positive way to the planet.
Yeah.
Yeah, Well, we've got more to talk to with you, Liz, and specifically we want to get into some of the different benefits that you realized by spending less money by buying fewer things. And we're going to talk how later on too, just some practical takeaways and how it is that folks can come up with a plan so that they can buy fewer things.
We'll get to all of that right after this. All right, we're back. We're still talking with Liz Chai about buying nothing and kind of all the positive benefits that accrue when you make a pretty radical life change. And Liz, twenty twenty was the first buy nothing year that you experienced. I'm curious, like, what sort of ripple effect has that had in your life, and has it been Has it resulted in more permanent and lasting changes maybe than you
first imagined? Was it? I guess you think of it as maybe a way to save money or declutter, But my guess is that that's not all. That's not the only impact that I had.
Definitely, gosh, there were so many things that I had no idea that were going to happen, all these unexpected benefits. I'll say. So, you know, like I said, I did this as a New Year's resolution. I did it for myself, and it was just like a personal challenge. But by the end of the year, you know, I had shared what I was doing with a few people, and one of my friends thought it was so interesting that he wanted to record a video about it, so he filmed
me talking about my project. This was towards the beginning of the year, but we didn't publish the video and till maybe October, and then it got a lot of attention just on our social media channels, and that led to The New York Times published an article about buying Nothing. It was published on the last day of the year, so I had it was day three sixty five of my project. And because of that, a lot of people who read that article came to me asking, well, how
can I how can I do what you're doing. So I would never have thought to write a book or you know, even be talking about this with anyone if if I hadn't encountered other people just telling me that they were inspired by the project and that they wanted to do their own year of buying nothing. So that's one of the one of the benefits was it started
this almost like a like a little mini movement. Had people approach me and even suggest you really need to write a book about this, So that's where the idea came from. I would say some of the other unexpected benefits were well, one of the big ones was I just like saved so much money, and I when I started, I didn't My intention personally wasn't necessarily to save money.
But that's why I call it an unexpected benefit. But I think there are a lot of people out there who they might want to do their own year of buying nothing so that they can save money. But because of my perspective on it at the time, I didn't know how much I was spending on stuff. Probably most people don't, so I didn't really have like a good way to say, well, if I don't buy the stuff,
I'm going to save ten thousand dollars. It wasn't really like that, but I just sort of passively everything I wasn't spending on stuff just it just went into my bank account. So at the end of the year, I was like, wow, there's a lot of money in here and there. There are a lot of other factors that played into this, but it was a huge contributing factor to me being able to put a deposit down on
building a tiny house. So I've been dreaming of building a tiny house for a really long time, and so that is that was the start of that.
And I just I love the idea of you getting to the end of the year looking at your bank account and being like I'm rich. Yeah, like it almost having happened to you. And I mean you've mentioned in the book too that maybe this is what you're getting ready to mention, but like you started saving for retirement, like you started investing for the first time ever.
Is that right? Yeah?
Yeah, I was. I had this excess of money, and I was I was like this, this feels great because I don't feel like I've lost anything, Like stuff just became so much less important to me. And I wasn't expecting that either. I thought by the end of the year, I'd be like, I have like a hundred things that I've been waiting to buy, and I got to the end of the year and there wasn't anything like that. I had forgotten most of the things that I was like, oh,
I really wish I could get that. I had a like a wish list going that I'm like, I know at the end of the year my mom might ask me what I want for Christmas or what I want for my Birthday. I had like two things on there.
Wow. Yeah.
And if I hadn't decided to quit buying things, I would have spent all that money mindlessly, like I had been for years where I would go into the grocery store and some of it is little stuff too. Went back to your question again about that slow trickle. But like I would go into the grocery store and buy a new red lipstick every time I was in the grocery store, just at habit I did not need any of that, I think, like, and this was all before, you know, before I quit buying stuff. But I had
a whole drawer full of red lipsticks. I'm like, no one needs the smunge lipstick. And so I was like, okay, well I'm allowed to buy a lipstick once.
I use up all of these.
And it took two years.
Wow, I want to hear. I want to hear about the things that you do allow yourself to buy too, Like, because so you said, okay, when the lipstick's all worn out, I will buy a new lipstick. So when when you say year of buying nothing, what are the caveats on that I guess for you? Because I'm guessing I don't know you're you're you're probably not going without socks or you know, some of the most basic things, is my guess.
Well, yeah, that is a great question, because a lot of people are confused by it, which is why I call it buying essentially nothing. I'm only buying what I absolutely essentially need and that I had to make my own lists of things that I was allowed to buy, and so this is going back to my need to have rules and structure. I made three lists. One of those was okay things that were okay to buy, and that was things like food, and okay, I need toothpaste,
and I need like toilet paper and coffee filters. I thought of every possible thing that was part of my life that was a need. And I work in coffee, so I do need coffee, so aside from.
The fact, but it's also just delicious.
Yeah, well that too, and it falls under the food category as well.
Some would say it's the best part of waiting out map.
Some would say that it is the best part. I think so. And when I say I work in coffee, I'm a graphic designer in the coffee industry. Just for clarity, so I made my okay lists and then if it wasn't on the okay list, then it was really not okay for me to buy. But I had some exceptions where it's like it's Okay, if I buy this, if the thing that I have breaks, or if the thing that I have gets lost and it's a need like a like a charging cable for my phone, or uh, there's not a whole lot of things.
I can't think of a lot.
Well, when I run out of lotion, that that's one thing that was on the list, because it's like I had so much lotion in the house that it was going to last me probably all year. But I was like, okay once, I'm not allowed to buy this until I run out a lotion.
So I pretty much.
Had very very precise lists of what I was allowed to buy, what I was not allowed to buy. But I didn't have like clotheses not on there. And socks. I knew I had enough socks to get me through the year, So socks is not I'm not allowed to buy socks because I had enough socks. If you're a person who like you're on your last pair and there's like a hole is about to appear on your last pair,
I would say, yeah, you probably need some socks. But the thing that I have to remind people is if you're gonna do this, like your life is different than mine, and your needs are different than mine, and so anyone can do this, even if you have kids, even if you have you know, even if you're unemployed, or there's all sorts of people will suggest, like the reason I can't do that is because of these things. And and I just think anyone is able to create their own
list of values and goals. Which is what I have laid out in the book is it's a guide for how to create your own buying nothing year so that it fits with your life and your needs and your lifestyle.
That's right, Yeah, I Like I think that's like what your first rule is that you get to set the rules, because, like you said, it comes down to the individual. You know, you were just talking about how you're able to, like you keep that spreadsheet going with all the stuff that you sell. I wanted to talk about how we oftentimes are tempted to tie our identity to the things that
we buy. Because obviously, when we do sell some stuff like that helps to pad the bank accounts some But like, do you see there being a benefit when it comes to our identities, because I think a lot of times, like we're tempted into believing that we've constructed these identities
but oftentimes it's based around consumption. And I'm curious if you found there to be a benefit that when you did unload certain things that it was sort of like you acknowledging to yourself that you're moving forward, like you're okay, there's growth happening here, or there's change happening here. I'm not who I used to be. I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that.
Absolutely. I think identity is a huge part of why I purchased so much stuff, so many vintage dresses, so many red lipsticks. It was part of my persona. And I explored this a lot as I was writing the book, because I had to think back all the way to my childhood and my younger years of like the types of things that I would buy. And you know, I went in the early two thousands, I went through this phase of like, well, I have to decorate my house and my design studio with all these posts to show
how good my taste is. Or I have to have this album or you know, this book to show how intellectual I am, or have to you know, be into this band to show everyone like how good my music taste is. And like so many of the things that I purchased. I think that they were trying to They were like an expression of who I was, but I didn't.
It was maybe not always, but maybe for me to show other people, and it was also for me to try and convince myself, like I was trying to figure out who I was and now, like I so back back in the days, the days of buying stuff, I had a lot. I had multiple houses. I had a gorgeous three thousand square foot freestanding modern loft with eight souzz It had two living rooms, and you know, I had to decorate this whole house and all of it was like, this is my house, This is the expression
of me and who I am. And you know, I had an idea of the way people perceived me. And then I went through a very difficult time in my life and I lost everything. And that was also a pretty big factor into what played into this entire project, is losing everything that I had. You know, invested so much of my identity and money, time and energy. I put all of that into this and then I lost it. And then I still was left with me and had to figure out, Okay, well what does that look like now?
And so you know, I moved across the country, and so it's this opportunity to sort of like redefine your identity. And I think people's identities change in their life as well, Like I'm not the same person that I was when I was like, oh, I have to have this band poster so people know, you know, like I don't give a crap anymore.
Like what I will say That Hanson poster was really cool though, you know.
No, I'm a little too old for Hansoon. No, this was like Wes Anderson days, like the early aughts. Uh huh, so you can you can only imagine.
Yeah, okay, so you mentioned you mentioned, you know, losing losing it all, and you actually before we started recording, you mentioned you told us that you you lost your job earlier this year. And I'm curious after so many years, obviously, there's so many negative things about losing a job, right, It's uh, it's a loss of community with coworkers, it's something you love to do. It's like what am I
going to do next to make income? But at least not having financial insecurity looming, like the sort of damicles over your head when that happens. Talk to me, it was that like a relief, uh for you knowing that, wait, I'm actually kind of prepared to wade through these waters.
Yeah, it definitely. So I was laid off in the spring and now we're at the end of the year, so I've basically gone eight or nine months, and it's it in a way, it was it's actually a really it was a really good thing to be laid off because I was already thinking like it might be time for my next step career wise, and it's it's great when someone throws you in the deep end of the
pool makes the decision for you. But I already had the resources and when I say resources like my tools for how to operate when I'm in financial stability and when I'm not and so and I had, you know, like I said, I had just excessive money just sitting around. Not that I you know, not times and tons of money just laying around, But I had enough where I didn't need to immediately go into a panic because I'm not spending that stuff or at that money on all
this stuff. And I've continued, you know, it's been four years now, I'm about to close out my fourth year of buying essentially nothing. So I really felt scared at first, but then I could shift right over to like, here's
here's what I need to do to make adjustments. And so since I wasn't buying stuff, the next move that I made to just like create a more of a sense of like, hey, I'm going to be all right till I figure out what I'm going to do, I trimmed, like I didn't allow myself to just buy whatever food I wanted to, which was the previous allowance. I could get whatever food I wanted to, Like I said, foie gras and steak and fine dining.
Yeah, no more reservation.
Yeah. Well, I think being flexible like that though, that's that's so key, especially when it comes to your expenses, but also to the income side of the equation. Right, And so when we were preparing to set up this interview, you mentioned how you actually you couldn't record in one of the rooms you're planning to because you've got an
Airbnb guest. It sounds like you've got some flexibility there, just being a little more open minded to what it is that it looks like to make some income maybe while things are going great, but also certainly while things may not be looking so hot, right, Yeah.
I immediately started. Well, I had already planned to be hosting on Airbnb. So, like I said, I had put a deposit down on a tiny house. And in Portland, everyone who owns a property can put a tiny house or an adu on it without any permitting. And so I had shifted over from apartment living to I bought a house with the intention of leasing it out or putting it on Airbnb, and then I would be living in the tiny house. So I don't have the tiny house yet. I had to in a sense put that
on pause. So I'm living in the house and I have one of my rooms up on Airbnb and I made probably four grand on that this last year, just hosting people. And I also there's an app called Neighbor where you can rent out your driveway or your.
Shed to people.
So I've I've been doing that as well, like little things like that. And also you know, I sell stuff. I still do that pretty regularly, and like I said, I keep track of that in my spreadsheet. I'll find things on the side of the road and sell it. Okay, to the point where I've had to sometimes tell myself, okay, you can't, you have to take a break from that
because it's it's kind of addicting. And I was also in this habit of like, oh I can I can take stuff junk that I got for free and get store credit in a shop and then use that store credit to obtain something new. Like actually furnished my entire house without buying anything. Some of it I got things with store credit, some of it I got in my buy Nothing group, some of it I got on the side of the road or Craigslist for free. And I, yeah, furnished the entire Airbnb without buying stuff.
And it looks awesome by the way, too, Like we know your sense of style, like you've got incredible taste, and I don't know if you've got a good photo, but maybe we'll yeah, put that out. Yeah, we'll post a pot of so that folks can see that it is possible, because I think a lot of times folks will hear this and they're thinking, oh my gosh, I bet it's like totally.
Disgusting it, but it's it's my dumpster. Yeah. Do you ever find dinner on the side of the road, Liz, or do you go back that far? Okay, all right, I'm just wondering, just wanted you got to ask a question. So okay, we've got We've got a few more questions to go to and including Liz. We want to ask you about the practical side of things. How do you acquire and source the things that you want or need? You gave just a little insight, but I want to
get dig a little bit deeper on that. We'll get to a few more questions with Liz right after this.
Part.
We are back from the break talking with Liz chy and So, Liz, earlier in the interview here, you mentioned one of the steps that you reckon for folks to take when it comes to putting together a plan to buy nothing. You mentioned I think it's step two. That's where you kind of make your separate lists for you. It's the okay list, that's the things that you give yourself appression to buy. You've got the okay if list where you are able to implement some rules, but you've
also got the not okay list. Basically, these are just categories of things that you are either allowing yourself to buy or not allowing yourself to buy. But how is it that you even arrive at those lists? What is it that informs those lists, and how do we make sure that we're able to follow through with sticking to that.
Yeah, like I was saying earlier, you really need to go hard. You need to truly challenge yourself. Otherwise it's just too easy. And I've even found in even in my years of buying nothing, it's almost too easy. Like I was able to furnish my whole house without buying stuff and just just by being resourceful. So I would say, one thing I did while I was making my list was just look around my house and be like, how
did I get that? How did I get that? Is that something that I would want to buy during the year? Is it some you know, like something that is one of my vices, like going I would go to the art store and buy gel pens, even though I have like hundreds of pens. Nobody needs more gel pens. So I'd put things that were like my big vices on that not okay list, almost as like a reminder of the things like, hey, I know you're really gonna want this,
you're not allowed to get it. So otherwise it's it's pretty easy to just say, well, if I'm not buying anything unless it's on the okay list, then everything is not okay. Does that make sense?
Yeah, the default.
Yeah, So I didn't really even need to look at the not okay list. It was sort of just there as like this hey, last minute reminder of like, no, you cannot get another journal, you cannot get like another vintage dress, you can't get another you know whatever it is that is my things that I would really really want. So it almost just became not necessary for me to look at that list. It was more the okay lists of just this reminder you're allowed to get these things and nothing else.
I just kind of had the thought that living in America makes this possible. Right, the kind of conspicuous consumption lifestyle that most people adopt, the vast majority of people adopt, means that you can kind of get there gently use secondhand stuff. I mean, I was talking to a friend who's remodeling his place, and he was just talking about how people remodel their kitchen every two or three years,
and I was like, wait, who are these people? He says, some people remodel their kitchen every too, And so the appliance is he's buying, is he's rehabbing his home, are gently used they're gorgeous and they're a third of the price. It's it's if you just look into that ecosystem and you can thrive off the secondhand, hand me downs, discounted or fully free items that other people are willing to give away. It's not I mean, the phrase one man's
trash is another man's treasure comes to mind here. But don't you think that part of it is because we live in this society of incredible extreme abundance, that means like living off the fat of the land that other people don't want to is just much easier than it would be in a lot of other places.
Yeah. I think people are picking up on that too, and that's why there's this there's a movement where people are giving out of their abundance in different online groups, and people constantly have this need to get rid of their too much stuff. And so if you're resourceful or if you're patient, then you can usually find the thing that you're looking for without having to buy it all.
Right, So in that ecosystem you've mentioned Facebook buying nothink groups, people know, people know about those. I think for the most part, Facebook marketplace another place typically you're buying or trading. I guess with people in that you must have stumbled upon other ecosystems and even well, how else do you source things? Are you like actually going to your neighbor to get a cup of sugar when you don't have it?
Whereas most people like don't do that, They like click to buy on instacart or something like that, like what other muscles? Has it made you exercise? And where else have you looked to gather things that you otherwise would have just clicked to purchase?
Well, definitely there are some items that I would have just gone out and purchased if I hadn't completely shifted my mentality on this stuff. So borrowing things kind of forgot about that until it turns out that that's like maybe the only way I can get like I need a shovel because I have to dig a hole, or I need a ladder, So I've borrowed those things from
my neighbors. I have actually borrowed a cup of sugar from a neighbor from my buy nothing group where I put lend me some sugar babes in the vina thing group and ended up with you know what I needed, and I you know, I could have gone to this store to buy sugar, but why not just go a few houses up.
Yeah, it's like it's funny how you positioned it, which is like, oh, it's this thing that I had forgotten about borrowing, because, like Joel's saying, like, we do live in such a country that is so rich and abundant and comfortable that we forget about this folks, the old thing of borrowing something. And we also miss out on the benefit of getting to know the people who live around us when we choose to isolate ourselves so click to buy kind of mentality when we're so self sufficient, Yes,
as opposed to leaning into other folks. And Yeah, there's a there's a loneliness that comes with that comfort that I what I'm hearing you say is that you're experiencing that community in a richer way than maybe you otherwise would have.
Yeah, I actually borrowed a pair of headphones for this podcast.
Yeah, I know. I love that. I love that. I mean, and it's one of those things where you can say, listen, I've got to book. The just came out and it's going to be massively successful, and I'm going to get on dozens of famous podcasts. And so this is something I can make an exception for. But even in that you found a way to borrow at borrow something instead of buying something new. Okay, let's say we opt to
take this route. Let's say people are listening and they're saying, like, okay, cool, maybe this time for me to go cold turkey to buy nothing. It's January twenty twenty four, a perfect time to make a change. How do you have conversations with friends and family who might be shocked by the choice that you're making. Is this or let's say you have a spouse or a partner who's a big time spender, or kids who I don't know, how do you kind
of start to have those conversations. I'm guessing that when you went into this you some people were like, whoa, this is crazy. Have you gone off the deep end?
Yeah? I did actually have a lot of people who pushed back on it. I generally surround myself with supportive people anyway, so there wasn't a lot of discouragement. But if you find yourself in a situation where maybe your family members aren't too keen on your idea, especially if it's like your kids are like, but how am I going to get this stuff that I want? I always go back to this, It's just you can't. You cannot control other people. You can really only do this sort
of thing for yourself. And so there are many times when I talk about buying nothing that I have someone come up to me and say, well, can you get my wife to stop buying? And I was like, no, No, it doesn't work that way, Like, you can't, that's not the way inspiration works. So I encourage people to just focus on themselves and maybe complete the endeavor on their own,
and it might inspire change in other people. And I think that that's a much better way to operate, so especially if they're facing that sort of pushback while you're doing it for yourself and there might be the icing on the cake of it buying other people. And I've had a lot of people come to me saying like, I really need help with this, or I really want to get your thoughts, or I'm thinking about doing this,
can you help me? And so it's a lot better than trying to force your ways on other people.
Sometimes it's like living that lifestyle, it can be contagious, right, and so you can it's the old Saint Francis of a CC like preach the gospel and when necessary use words and so it's like living out the life of someone doing something different as opposed to be and super preachy about it and say like join the bandwagon. So as you just have to do the thing that you know is right for you and hope that other people join you in the endeavor.
And I do think it would be inspiring for the people that you're around, just I guess based off my own experience. And it's like a be the change moment too, where you get to contribute in your own way to maybe improving the world around you, and you really only have that chance. You're only able to change what you can change in your own life and hopefully it leads to positive change in other people.
So that's true. Yeah, I think you said that that once you've done it yourself and have seen some of that positive change, like you automatically qualify as an expert at that point, because what are you gonna do deny my personal experience? Of course not it's said the ability to of course not hit somebody over the head with that, but for them to see that as a bystander, hopefully can inspire them to make some change, and Liz, hopefully
this conversation has done the same. We hopefully folks are able to leave this episode with just a little more fire underneath them to perhaps do something that they thought would would have been previously completely undoable. Little countercultural. Not possible exactly. But so your book's out, how to buy essentially Nothing for a year? Where where is it that folks can learn more about that book and to learn more about you and what you're up to.
Well, the book is available. You can go to buy it essentially nothing dot com. It's self published, but you can purchase the book online. It will be available as a print or as a digital download. And I don't have social media set up for the book. I've pretty much just operated on my own. I even had a year of no social media and it was twenty twenty one. So right after that New York Times article came out, I went dark social and was like, well, I'm doing
this for myself. Sorry, I'm not here to sit here and like promote my thing. But if you want to visit my channel on Instagram, I'm at Chai Americano. That's just my personal account where I post a lot of stuff about buying essentially nothing, but I also talk about coffee a lot. Coffee too bad.
I love it. Liz. This has been such a great combo and good to catch up with an old friend. So thank you for joining us today on the show.
Thank you guys so much.
Well man, that was fun. It really was good to talk with an old friend with My big takeaway is that we need to have friends who write books so that we can have them on there's an excuse to have them on the.
Podcast of our other friends would not be great. Guess you know who we're talking.
They don't want to come on the show and talk to us anymore than they have to. But uh now, this really was an awesome conversation about just curbing our consumption.
With Liz Chi.
But Joel, yeah, did you have an actual big takeaway for folks today?
Yeah?
So or for you as an individual that you want to share with folks. It's not for other people, it's for you.
Yeah. I think from just a macro perspective, it's amazing how much money you can save. She thought she was going to be a perpetual renter. She was able to buy a house, and so I think, like it's not an insignificant amount of money you can save if you kind of take this Liz Chai buy nothing mentality and you adopt it into your own life. But I think my big takeaway was when she said I wanted to experience satisfaction and that buying nothing was something that was
going to increase her happiness in life. And I do think that sometimes the retail therapy buying stuff is covering over, it's glossing over maybe some deeper feelings that we've got going on, and it allows us to kind of skim over,
not have to feel them, satisfy them through consumption. And I think maybe the more we curve back on that, we might actually have like some stuff, some hard things to deal with as we consume less, because that has been kind of like a bomb that we applied to a wound, and then when that wound is just kind of open, it's it's revealing and it's we have to actually deal with the underlying problem. So it's not even a ball, and it just kind of like it's a
dirty bandage over it. It's like I can't see it anymore. Maybe it's better, right, but in fact it is still there and that's the problem too. I mean I kind of mentioned this at the very very beginning of the episode, just how high wage earners are dealing with as well, because we just continually move the goalposts and we think that, oh, well, this used to make me happy and it doesn't anymore.
But what I act, truly, what I need now is this. Yeah, And like you said, we oftentimes don't address the underlying issues there.
And there's no end to the things you can desire and the things you can buy. And then it's like you got the new house, but then you can buy all the stuff.
But then after that you're buying. You're buying companies, yeah, and renaming them or you're.
Like, listen, I got the house, but now now I need a pool in the backyard to be real happy. And it's a bittero effect right there. Yeah, we all have experienced that, like we You and I not immune from that in any way, form or fashion. And I need to take a lot of this medicine myself. So that is that's why I really wanted to talk to
Liz read her book. I don't know that I will go whole hog the way that she has, but I definitely am planning to incorporate a lot of kind of the ways that she's talked about buying less, curbing consumption in her own life.
Yeah, so my big takeaway is going to be super practical. And she mentioned the birthday list, and she writes about this more in depth in the book. But the ability to create a list, an ongoing list of things that you want or things that you think you need. But by forcing yourself to not immediately go into Amazon, added to your card and click, you know, click to buy. Well, by denying yourself you see that over time, Oh, actually
that isn't necessary. But then b if you do still want that thing when it does come time to be your birthday, well, guess what, You've got some awesome gifts that you're going to be so stoked about.
Yeah, that you can mention to folks. So you've been salivating over for months.
Yeah, And it's not like it's some game changing tactic, but just the mind there's a shift in mindset that takes place, and that has taken place with technology. Just our ability to buy any and everything that we need like the second you think about it. And so just to govern ourselves a little bit by saying, well, do I actually need that thing and holding off a little bit. I think by implementing a strategy, just like she mentioned creating a birthday list that can kind of be a
mental check. It's there as a mechanism that gives you pause, and I think that that's more than anything what it is that we need oftentimes in.
Our lives, and also make my mom happier because then when she asked me what I want for my birthday Christmas, I actually have something to tell it because I'm used to buying what I need exactly what I think I need at least, and instead of doing that, I can let her take care of yes and actually give her the satisfaction being able to buy me something that I want.
It's one of those shifts that takes place as you we're like, oh, I'm a grown man, I can buy my own things. Yeah, and then when it does come time for I'm getting off track. But like when it does come time to forgift giving, it's something that you
feel prepared for. It makes me also think about the little conversation we had about community and the fact that that is also something that is denied by our ability to purchase anything whenever it is that we we don't have to ask our neighbor for things because oh, I can order it right now, and then the delivery guy Amazon man, he'll show up this afternoon. No need to text your neighbors or let alone walk over to their house.
Oh God forbid you actually go over to their house and see them in person knock on the door, when in reality, that's just such a rich way to foster community and get to know your neighbors.
Yeah. Agree, I like that part as well. I'm all for individualism has many benefits. But individualism and community are symbiotic in my estimation, right that they do. Oh, you can be overly individualistic and you can be overly relying on your community, but both are important and they can live together in harmony. Yeah.
Yeah, when it comes to what it looks like for us to be well rounded individuals, got to have a little bit of both of that in there for sure.
Man.
Let's get to our beer. We enjoyed a dead on. This is a double IPA brewed by hid and River Brewing.
What were your thoughts, buddy, Maybe this one was very similar actually to the last one that we had from them. This was soft and hoppy. It was delicious. It was cloud like in its levity, but also brought a hot punch like I. Whatever this brewery is doing, they're doing it right. I've never had anything by them until recently, and I'm in. I'm sold.
It makes me realize how many great breweries there must be across this massive country that we, yes, we've never heard of. Yeah yeah, it's not even on our radar. But yeah, so glad you and I got to enjoy this double I p A. I mean, honestly, it makes me want to visit Pennsylvania because we've had multiple beers now from Pennsylvania that are phenomenal. But uh yeah, big thanks again to Rihanna for donating this one to the show, and head over to the website howamoney dot com.
Up there.
In the show notes for this episode, you'll find links to Liz's site, where it is that you can not only learn more about her, but also buy her.
Book and then after that buy nothing else. Right, all right, that's gonna do it? Right?
You can download it, I guess, so if you've got a kindle, you know you can. It doesn't have to be a physical item that you've got laying around.
But in her book has worksheets and stuff that kind of help you, like, actually do the work of figuring out how to do it, as opposed to just telling you how she did it. That's true, all right, that's gonna do it for this episode, Matt. Until next time. Best friends have best Friends Out