Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, and today we're talking how to avoid and combat crushing medical debt with doctor Virgie Ellington.
Deest of the leading cause of personal bankruptcy is you guessed it, medical bills. So when a singular expense like this is such a blight on our personal finances, you better believe that we're going to spend a minute on how we can not only eliminate medical debt, but just avoid it in the first place. So here are some
some more sobering statistics. And estimated one hundred million Americans have amassed nearly two hundred billion dollars in medical debt, and nearly one in five adults have medical debt that is currently in collections. This is according to us study by the Journal of the American Medical Association. And that is why we're happy to have doctor Virgie Bright Ellington joining us today on the pod. She obviously, I said doctor, so she's an insider and her book Crushed Medical Debt.
It outlines the steps that we need to take to ensure that we're not paying money that we don't owe so we can avoid becoming one of those statistics. I just mentioned earlier. So doctor Virgie, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast.
You know what, thank you so much for having me guys. It's awesome talking with you. Yeah.
No, we're really excited for this conversation because I think a lot of people might say bull ring, but Matt just highlighted so many rings. Yes, it's like money.
It is not boring exactly.
And we like money, and we like keeping money in our pockets, and this we want.
To keep your money.
Yes, this is a place where we get separated from our money. So it's really important to talk about. But the first question we have for everybody who comes on the show is Matt and I we like to splurge a little bit into here and now on a couple things we enjoy. One of those things is craft beer, even though I know you're a doctor and you might say it's not the ideal choice, right, but that is something we do enjoy. And moderation. What is that thing
you like to splour John in the here? Now? What do you spend more money on in your personal life while you're also still making wise choices for the future.
I have to tell you, guys, it is sushi and It's one of those things that sneaks up on you. You write with any addiction, you don't realize you trouble until something happens right is just matched in your face. And I am just so thrilled and fortunate that my favorite sushi place delivers and I'm just like doing my thing.
And then the day after Black Friday, so the day after Thanksgiving one year, I order my sushi usual thing and the guy, you know, just really sweet, you know, kind guy with his usual smile, has in one hand the sushi bag and then the other hand a big giant bottle of sake. And it hit me. I was like, I spend so much money with these folks, just like they're like, okay, we're going to get in on, you know,
giving our best customers a big giant pressure. And that's when I figured out, you know what, Virgie, you have a problem. We're spending too much with a lot of money on sushi.
Okay, then quick follow up. Do you like the the different roles that they make, you know, with the different ingredients, or do you like the super fresh, high end cutting meat there just on that perfectly formed piece of rice?
You know what? I really I'm pretty predictable. I really enjoy the salmon, that fresh salmon surrounded by carbs. You know, there's just nothing like pure white rice carbs. It's also a little bit of extra fat that mouth feel with the avocados. So my thing right when I'm trying to be healthy and be a good girl is the salmon avocado role. But when I am being a bad girl, I always have to get this shrimped tempearl with it fry.
Oh yeah, be that so that's.
Me they again, these guys have my order down cold.
I love it. Yeah, that's so good. Speaking of that rice that those cars, I've been trying to talk Joel into getting the high end rice that they sell at Costco. It's like three times the price of the cheaper stuff.
But it's so much. But when you buy a back in Costco, it's still last year, five years. You're still exactly all.
Right, doctor Virgie. Let's let's kind of dive into talking about medical debt, and you know, like here on the podcast, like I don't think there's much reason for us to talk necessarily about like policy shortcomings and how this impacts millions of folks across the country quite untimately, every year. But given the lack of political will and output and changes we've seen oftentimes seen that we were just left
to advocate for ourselves. Is that your experience and what you've seen working with patients, This.
Is the problem, guys. The issue is is that in the United States, in order to have medical financial literacy, you it's just it's really really people feel like it's impossible to have. But in the United States, you have to have medical financial literacy in order to have financial stability, period, because most Americans, even those of us with fabulous insurance, are just one accident or serious illness away from a lifetime of debt or worse. And so people think, well,
we don't have any other choice. You know that we're just stuck with this system, and it's an expensive system, and it is what it is. No, that's the bad news. The good news is, no, it doesn't have to be this way. It doesn't have to be that way. So, no, we have control over not getting taken advantage of. We have control over not becoming victims to predatory billing. We just don't know it. Ninety nine point nine percent of us don't know it.
I feel like we've all talked to somebody who says I avoided going in to seek medical care because I was worried about the financial repercussions of going in to see the doctor or going to the hospital. And so people will avoid getting the medical care they need sometimes because they're scared of the financial outcome, which says a lot, right.
I mean, that's kind of scary stuff that people won't get what they need, they won't see someone who can help them with their problem because they're worried about how much it's going to cost.
You know, you guys are talking about the statistics at the beginning the top of our conversation, and what's really really sad and heartbreaking is scary, is that there's direct relationship between having medical bills meaning medical debt meaning it's a bill that you can't pay off in total at the end of the month, and life span. So people put off to your point, people put off getting care
because they can't afford it. They're afraid of the bill, and something that could have been preventative maybe before the issue started, or like screening type stuff or something that was small gets really really huge and it's really expensive and or can shorten your life. So it's real there is a lot of statistics that bear this out, that the American life span actually is shortened by debt.
Well, and I mean that everybody's heard of the phrase that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of care.
Right, if we just would And I always say, you know, I tell my family this all the time. I say, you know, not a pound of care. I say, worth more than ten pounds of care. Ounce of prevention is worth more than ten pounds of cure. It's just I can't even begin to tell you believe that it's a big deal. And you know, the student debt. I saw
you guys are talking about that the other week. The student debt or student loan pause is ending, you know, at the end of this month, so basically all of the payments are now due again as of October first. There's a study that came out last week that showed those folks with student debt have lower health outcomes and higher essentially medical more medical problems, and actually end up having more medical bills because they're cutting back on other
things trying to make those student debt payments. So there's a direct relationship between debt and destroyed families, destroyed lives, and financial futures.
Sure, and foregoing some of that care. That would be the classic example of being cheap versus frugal, which we.
Talk penny wise pound for sure exactly.
Okay, So what you kind of I mean, you launched into your book right like right out of the gate, you kind of give some different case studies, and you gave one where you were documenting basically signing an agreement for these services before there was any services being provided.
So how common is this tactic? And you know, is there a chance that if you are faced with one of those and it feels like you're being pressured to pay that, is there a chance that you would potentially not receive care, you know, were you to actually refuse signing one of those questions? How does that work?
You know? And I laugh. I always say this. I
laugh so I don't cry. And that's how I got into this work really literally was I had been a internal medicine physician for god knows how many years, and I was a health insurance executive, which gave me a complete three hundred and sixty degree total view of the US healthcare system and how it works, or so I thought, until I became a patient and met Mia, my hospital roommate, who told me she had been tripped into signing a bill or agreement I should say to pay a bill
that I was pretty sure she didn't owe, but I was definitely sure it was putting her and her family into a lifetime of debt. The thing is is that in an emergency situation, when you go into an emergency room, no, you don't have to agree, you don't have to sign anything. The care has to be provided to you until you are stabilized. Once you're stabilized, they can ship you out to someplace else that gives charity care or free care,
that kind of thing. My point to her was when I was talking with her, she was telling me the story about the last time she had been in the hospital the year prior, and it was for the same thing. She was being worked up, something happened, and they were concerned doing these tests on her and kept her for a week doing all these tests because they were concerned that she was having a rare reaction of rare something.
And she was telling me that she was really concerned about what this is going to cost this current hospitalization because and she told me the story about yeah, when this happened to me a year ago. One of the hospital representatives came in and said, hey, before you can leave, you need to sign this, and she explained, well, I had insurance, I don't know what they were asking me
to sign. And guysa she was telling me the story, I realized, oh my gosh, they tricked her into believing that she had to sign to agree to be balance built. And what that means is that if you have insurance, if your provider a hospital in this case, is in network with your insurance, it means they accept your insurance, they have to take whatever the insurance pays them for the services that they provide. So let's say that the usual care for a service or service, the price for
a service that they offer is one hundred dollars. But the insurance company says, well, if you want to be a network with us and have access to our millions, hundreds of thousands to millions of patients, then you know you're going to have to accept this as payment and full and we only pay like ten dollars for this service. So that is a contract with between the provider with the insurance company saying what they're going to take for
their members. For this particular insurance company as payment in full. Balance billing is going back and saying, hey, yeah, you know that service is reprovided for you. Your insurance only paid ten dollars. We charge one hundred, so you owe us ninety dollars.
That's breaking balance that agreement right with the insurance company.
That is essentially contract fraud because the person who is agreed to the agreed the party that's been affected negatively didn't sign a contract with them. The patients don't know that, hey, this is balance billing. This is this is essentially contract fraud between the insurance company and the provider.
To talk to me about also just medical billing errors, and there's I think you said in your book that estimates are that ninety percent of medical bills contain errors. So balance billing is an issue, but so is that And so if we have insurance, are they finding and pushing back against the errant bills that we're getting and how can we find them in contest them if the insurance isn't doing it.
For us, well, the insurance company isn't going to know that you're being balanced bill. Think about it. That's why the providers are so ubiquitous and feel comfortable doing it, because how is the insurance company going to know that their provider that their network with balance built the patient, right, They're never going to know. The insurance company isn't going to see the bill that the provider sent you. That's
why it's so it's such an ubiquitous problem. Yes, to answer your question, there are studies that say minimum eighty percent, but up to ninety percent of all medical bills generated in the United States have errors. And if you can imagine, guys, they're not going to be in the favor of the patient, right, They're going to be in the favor of the provider and or the insurance company if you have insurance. So, yes,
it's a real thing. But this is a caveat, I say, And in my experience, what I've seen is that these quote unquote mistakes aren't really mistakes. I'm being generous by calling the mistakes. And one of the top five mistakes I talk about is balance billing. So the balance billing we just discussed is one of the top five reasons that eighty to ninety percent of us have been overcharged with our medical care.
So it's not in oops, it's intentional.
Yeah, So let's say that we call you on it. You know, we get this bill, Hey, you owe us ninety dollars for that service that we charge one hundred dollars for, but your insurance only pays ten. If I call them up and say, hey, I'm looking I got this bill from you guys, and I'm looking at this, and it says that you're in network with my provider, and I call with my insurance company. Rather, I call my insurance company and they say, yes, you are in
network with them. By definition, in network means that you'll take whatever they pay as payment in full for the services that you that they cover. Okay, so where's this ninety dollars coming from? This is I don't understand. And they'll say, oh, gosh, you know what, our mistake, just disregard them.
Yeah, I didn't realize how big of an issue that was. Balance billing. But in your book you talk about some of the other common errors, and we're going to discuss some of the ways that we can discover those errors, and we will get some of that right after this break.
All right, we're back from the break. We're still talking about crushing medical debt, how to avoid it with doctor Virgie Ellington and doctor Virgie. We're talking about the bill you receive. Sometimes it's a balance bill that you should have never received in the first place. And so the way to combat that is to call and be like, hey,
call them out on their fake oops. Right, But let's talk about some other stuff too, Like when we get a bill that we do owe that the insurance doesn't fully cover, Well, one, how do we know that it is something that isn't fully taken care of by the insurance company that we do actually owe, and then how do we get to the bottom of Like you talk about medical billing codes and it feels like it's this completely new language that we have to learn if we
want to learn how to fight back against medical bills in general, Like, how can we know what that system entails and learn how to fight back against it.
Yeah, So the way to figure this all out and to not have to think, oh my gosh, what I do now? What I do? What do I do and not get overwhelmed is just understand there's only one right way to pay any medical bill, and it involves three simple steps. Step one, the key is CPT codes. CPT codes are to medical services what bar codes are to products in a retail store. So every medical service you can think of getting in the United States has its
own unique CPT code. So every test, every operation, procedure, outpatient, doctor visit, anything you can think of has its own unique CEP codes. And that is the currency that is saying okay, this is the service that was provided. This is the common language between providers and payers. So if you want to make sure that you're not getting overcharged, get the CPT codes, meaning call the provider and ask for a real bill with quote unquote CPT.
Codes, and that's is that typically known as the itemized bill as well, So that's.
The language is played with. It's a game. So an itemized bill. They'll say, yeah, sure, I'll send you an item We'll send you an itemized bill and it'll have all kinds of details of the things that they they're charging you for the services you received, but they don't
have any CPT codes assigned to them. CPT codes are usually about or usually five digits and at the top of every bill if you scan it and it doesn't have something at the top that says CPT or c PT slash kicks picks hcpcs, which is a subtype of CPT code, then it's not a real bill. There is no insurance organization company in the country period that will
accept a bill that doesn't have CPT codes. Fly do providers send insurance companies different bills, then they send patients ninety nine points, I'd say nine times out of ten. There are some hospitals that will send a real bill the first time without having a call back and request one. But if you call them and say I need an itemize bill, they'll say, yeah, sure, and it makes them
very happy. They'll send you a very long list of something that even says they'll have codes at the top or service codes at the top, and it means nothing.
Guys.
It's language that's internal to that organization or to that medical system. It is not a CPT code. That is the common language that the providers and payers in the United States speak for paying for medical care.
Okay, So once we have those CPT codes for a lot of people, it's going to feel like reading Latin, going back to high school looking at a dead language sort of thing. So what do we do with that information once we have it in hand?
So, yeah, now you finally have your bill, the real bill that has CPT codes. And step two, you're going to take each of those codes and you're going to google what Medicare pays for each of those services. You're actually why you're googling. You're doing two things. You're going to plug in and let's use an example. I like to use a lot CPT nine ninety two one three, and that describes a type of outpatient office visit. You plug that in, you do an Internet search, Google it,
and up will pop some descriptions of that code. And what you're doing is basically just making sure it sounds roughly like the services you believe that you were provider, that you were told by your physician that you were provided great, and while you're there, you're going to find what Medicare pays for that CPT code, for each CPT code for which you're being charged now Medicare. The reaction I get Joel and Matt often is that people will say, well, Medicare,
that's for old people. That has nothing to do with me, and I say, well, yeah it does, because Medicare is the lowest, most fair retail price that is paid for medical services in the United States period. So that's the number you're looking for. That's the fair retail price you're looking to pay. That's the price that shows you're not being overcharged, overcharged, or upcharge. For instance, let's say you know, God forbid, you had to go into the emergency room.
You're away a couple hours away skiing and you fell broke your arm. Go to the nearest emergency room and they're like, you know what they did the X rays. You're going to need this set surgically. We'll call the orthopedis closer to your home. You can go home. I'll just put you in a sling here until you can have surgery tomorrow or the day after near your home with a provider near your home, or who's a network
with your insurance if you have insurance. So you go, you go home, you get the surgery at the orthopedis closest to your home, and a month later, you get a bill and you from the emergency room right when you're on vacation, and you look at it and you're like, well, well no, there's no CPT codes here, So you call. You finally get a real bill that has CPT codes and you plug them in and one of the CPT
codes says humoral fracture intervention. So it sounds like well, I don't know what humorous is, but fracture it sounds like something broken. Okay, But intervention, well, all they did was put it in a sling. No, they didn't do an intervention. That's an up charge. There is a CPT code I'm sure for a sling if they're going to charge you for that, but they need to delineate that in the CPT codes. They should not charge you for fracture intervention. The intervention you had was at your home.
It was not in the emergency room. So that is getting up charged. That's why you're going to take in step two. Those CPT codes you work so hard to get. In step one, google them, do an internet search, find out what descriptions come up. Make sure it sounds roughly like the services you had. To make sure you're not getting double billed or up charged. And while you're there, find out what the lowest, most fair retail price for that medical see.
Okay, so then you've got the procedure, you've got the price is Step three just basically saying hey, this is what I would like to pay.
Yep, Matt and Joel, you guys are always putting ahead. Here, you got it. Step three is calling back the provider and saying, hey, yeah, you know that emergency her and your surgery I have last month and I just got a bill that the first bill you guys sent was like ten thousand dollars. But in my case, I am willing and able to pay three thousand dollars. And you're not going to share this with you You don't have to share this with them. It's not of their business and
they don't really care. But three thousand dollars is the price that you may have come up with when you've done the three steps against that medical bill. Medicare pays three thousand dollars for the services you were billed ten thousand dollars for in the initial bill that was not a real bill. And you're going to say, you know what, yeah, I can pay three thousand dollars, and you know what,
that was an emergency. Nobody's prepared for an emergency. I can only look, you can't get blood out of a stone. I've tried to turn my budget up every which way. I can only get fifty dollars a month out of my budget to pay this. Who can I speak with who can help me set up an interest repayment plan for this fifty dollars a month for this three thousand dollars that I'm willing and able to pay. So Matt
and Joel. People also often when I get to this point, when I share the example of the three steps, they'll say, well, three thousand dollars fifty dollars a month, Oh my gosh, even if they would accept that number, it's going to take you forever. It will take you forever to pay that, Okay, So it'll take you sixty months, five years, half a decade. And the reason why they're going to accept it, it
doesn't matter how long it's going to take. That's what's in your budget, and that's what you're gonna stick to. You're gonna stick to your guns. And the reason why, even though you're gonna get pushback, they've been trained to say, hey, you know what, we took care of you and or your loved ones during tough time and saved your life. Yeah, you're gonna get your money. Yeah, guys, you'll get your money.
I just want to pay what I owe, and this is what I can pay you, and they don't have to chase you it costs them money to chase you.
It's the burglar.
They know they're saving money. That's why they're going to accept you're being proactive. They don't have to chase you. And frankly, they know that their bills are not real bills to start with. That was a fake number to start with.
And if they have to turn it over to collections, they're going to get pennies on the dollar.
It's exactly.
It's not gonna be worth their time.
Probably right, you hit it right on the head.
Well, okay, I want to ask you this, doctor Burgee, because you reference somebody who even with like let's say a bill of three thousand dollars, Hey, I don't have the money to pay, and it's going to take me forever. We can do a payment plan or something like that. But maybe that's not even the place they need to go, because what about what about qualifying for our financial assistance?
It seems like from what I've read, something like thirty to forty percent of Americans, given their income and their family size, could qualify will qualify for financial resistance either a greatly reduced overall bill amount or for it to be completely forgiven. Is that true?
Yes, sir, you got it. It's true. So, by federal law, all nonprofit institutions, hospital, medical service facilities, medical care facilities have to offer to the folks in the communities in which they operate sliding scale, income based discounts in exchange for not paying any money in taxes, not paying a dime in taxes for the hundreds of up to you know, hundreds of millions of dollars of revenue. So that's a big deal. By federal law, Yes, they must if there
are a nonprofit facility. And the last numbers I saw about sixty sixty five percent of hospitals medical care facilities in the United States are nonprofits. So yes, by federal law they have to offer that. This is the thing. Don't think that just because you have a high income that you won't qualify. So I actually had a case where the person had a really high income, like I think her gross income salary was one hundred and fifty thousand dollars a year, but our medical bill was so large,
I think it was like ten thousand dollars. According to their formula for this facility, it was it happened to be an academic facility, which are by definite. Usually I'd say nine plus out of times out of ten. Their nonprofit, this particular facility ten thousand dollars one hundred and fifty thousand dollars growth salary, that sliding scale income based discount wipe the whole bill away.
Very nice, but they're not always going to tell you that upfront, right, So you either have to like ask, hey, what is your financial assistance policy?
Exactly? Guys are so sharp. So by law, there's a law that says they're supposed to post their practices for offering a financial aid application. You can call it whatever you call you know, whatever name you want to call it, financial aid, financial assistance, charity care, whatever you want to call it. They have to offer everyone an applicationation to apply for sliding scale income based discounts. And so people think, again, oh, I make too much money, and well I went to
this other hospital cross town and I didn't qualify. Every hospital, actually, nonprofit facility even in the same town, have different formulas. So always always ask. So someone brought this up instead of doing the three steps, just ask for a sliding scale income based application, ask for financial aid assistance application.
This is the problem. If you do the math if you're saying about thirty to forty percent of medical services, meaning medical bills you're going to get in this country qualify for required financial aid required federal financial aid by the government. So that means that sixty percent seven sixty to seventy percent of the medical bills generating these in the United States do not qualify for required financial aid.
So you want to do both. So what I usually do is in those cases, if you know that you went to a facility that as a nonprofit facility or an academic facility, ask call theer billing office and ask for a financial aid application. Once you get the bill, then you can find out what you owe. If you have the whole thing wiped away, they don't have to
bother to apply the three steps. But if there's any money left over, or they don't offer financial lead, or you don't qualify, then you know the three steps to make sure that you are getting the You're not i should say, getting overcharged, you're getting the right bill.
It's a multi pronged approach, and I think that that's a great way to think about it. But once you do, I mean what you're talking about there, once you get the bill let's say you've kind of passed the stage where you can apply for that financial assistance. What you're
talking about there is negotiating for it. And one of the things that you talk about your book to aid within that discussion that negotiation is what you call a quote unquote battle journal, which sounds really intense, but I feel like it also doesn't have to be the super confrontational thing. It can even just like basically, what you're doing is you're just trying to provide some organization to
your thoughts. You're trying to provide some organization to discussions that you've had, Who you've talked to, what date you had that discussion, what it is that you've learned. I guess I'm kind of explaining why that's why that's so important as well, But yeah, I mean, why why else do you need to have a record of some of your conversations.
Yeah, people think that negotiating in whilst something that's aggressive, or that you have to know fancy words or no fancy medical terms or be really really smart. No, when you're doing the three steps, you're automatically negotiating. You just it's just very matter of fact. It's just going through the steps and when you call.
Them surprise you're negotiating. Yeah, you don't eize, you.
Know, you don't realize that, Hey, I have this hard number here. They're like, okay, fifty dollars is going to take us forever to get our money. Can you do one hundred? No, no, you can't. And let me tell you why. You're going to stand on your ground again. If you agreed to one hundred, you're like, okay, maybe I can squeeze and stretch to one hundred. If you have a bad month and you can't make that hundred dollars payment that you agreed to, they can send you
to collections right away. So stick to your guns. Whatever your number that you come up with, you have to stick to it. So that's why you want to use a battle journal. And I felt kind of bad to your guys's point, I felt kind of bad calling at a battle journal, But that's what it is. It's kind of like armor for you because you are documenting every
discussion you have with them. And unfortunately, if something happens and they try to take you to collection, send you to collections or god wd, be even worse, you know, bring a claim against you in court, you have documentation of who you spoke with and what was said.
Okay, I want to ask you about best payment method. So, for instance, let's say you come to an agreement, you say, all right, I got the CPT codes. I push back, and now the true bill instead of ten thousand dollars is eighteen hundred dollars, and I don't qualify for financial assistance, so I've got to pay it. But I also don't have eighteen hundred dollars. Some people will just put it on the credit card to be done with it, paying interest for months and months and maybe even years to come,
really harming their personal finances and their future. So how should people pay? How do you agree to pay the hospital when there is a certain amount you owe and you feel comfortable now with the final bill, how do you proceed?
Yes, you do not want to put it on a credit card, no matter what. And that's because once you put it on a credit card, a medical bill on a credit card, you automatically obliterate all of the federal protections federal law, legal protections that you have to have medical debt not show up on your FYCAL score. So when you make an agreement a payment plan directly with the facility. I call it, you know, dancing with the ones that brought you to the party. Keep your medical
bill with the people that provided their service. You want to do that, because medical bill payments or payment plans, I should say that are made directly with the provider don't show up on your fical score. And to your earlier point, yes, The second issue is once you put something in a credit card, if you can't make pay it all off, the interest rates and by the way, medical or they call them care credit cards are the same thing. They say, oh, well, we charge you zero
interest for two years. I think I saw one last year that has like three years of zero percent interest. If you make the payments and pay it all off. Well what if you can't. If something happens and you can't, there you go and those interest rates rack up fast.
No that makes sense. Okay, well that's great advice. We've got a few more questions we want to get to with you, doctor Virgie, including kind of where we go for help if we're stonewalled with a bureaucracy at a hospital or a medical facility. We'll get to questions about that with you right after this.
We are back. We're talking with doctor Virgie on how to avoid this crushing medical debt. And before the break, Joel alluded to this, but are there any government or nonprofit agencies that can help if we feel like we're being given the run around, if it doesn't feel like that we're being given the right information, what can we do about it?
So, if you received your care at a nonprofit hospital, there is a nonprofit organization called Dollar furdal l l A r f o R dot org and they will help you work through the process of appealing essentially the decisions by this facility to not cover you lower your bill or they say that the care is this price and not the price that you in your research applying the three steps discovered with the medicare fair retail price.
So that's one organization there. The organization that I always refer folks to that's also a nonprofit, will help you with all medical bills, it doesn't matter if it was with a nonprofit hospital, and that's called the Patient Advocate Foundation and that's Patient Advocate dot org. And the reason why I recommend them is because basically they do almost everything.
They do everything other than up to not including going with you and representing you in court if you get taken to court by these unscrupulous, over aggressive predatory providers. Now there are some for profit companies that will do this. They'll help negotiate bills down and in exchange they take ten percent usually as the going number of the amount
that they save you. So I saw one case where the insurance company refused to pay the eighty thousand dollars NICK bill for twins because in their records they said it was not an emergency. Well, when is babies being born ever? Not an emergency like the right? And they were sick they needed to go to a NICK So
how is that? How was that elective? Right? So, anyway, the point is the couple tried to go for months in between the providers and the insurance company, and just the conversation and the information and medical rectors weren't getting passed along. So they got tired. It's a war of attrition, guys. That's why I called a battle journal. It's real, it's really. They just wore them down, and so they finally went to a for profit company that helps resolve these issues.
And so instead of paying eighty thousand dollars, they paid eight thousand dollars to the company that negotiated the bill down.
Okay, Yeah, I've seen some of these popping up, and it seems like for the person who's gotten weary finding that bill, it might be a decent kind of last solution, right, And.
I really disagree. Now, if you're really chronically only has some really big major medical issues and hospitalizations prolonged and multiple Okay, yeah, but then I would recommend hey reach out to just try the Patient Advocate Foundation first. But the first thing I want everybody to know is that a lot of this foolishness can be just be just just not become a non issue if you just apply the three steps.
Yeah, okay, say that.
Eight thousand dollars, eight thousand dollars supposed a long way to a college fund, starting a college fund for twins.
Right, that's a lot of money too, And we don't want any how to money listeners paying any dollars more than they have to be.
You don't, Oh, that's my point. If you don't know what no, all.
Right, you mentioned at the very beginning of your book, you say that a portion of the sales proceeds go to this nonprofit called RIP Medical debt, which Matt and I we've heard of. They have what I think they've eradicated over a billion dollars maybe.
Oh gosh, that was last year. Just in lessen a year, guys, they've gone from over a billion dollars to over seven billion with a b dollars and medical bills are eradicated for folks facing bankruptcy from these medical bills.
And these are all right, these are all medical bills that have gone to collections and then and then RIP Medical Debt is saying, listen, for pennies on the dollar, we're going to eradicate this on behalf of people. So it feels like it should be something that's unnecessary in
a country like ours, but sadly it's necessary. But I'm also I think it's great that what you're doing with part of the proceeds of your book is going to help ensure that their work continues to to you know, continue continues to make waves out in the world.
So for every book that sold, one dollar goes to our IP Medical Debt, which eradicates one hundred dollars in medical bills for someone facing bankruptcy from bills medical bills that have gone to collections.
Very cool. We love that, We love that that that is a part of your mission, doctor Virgie. And we haven't even gotten to everything obviously that you cover in your book, and so we will link to where it is that folks can purchase your book, and actually, can you tell us where it is folks can learn more about you?
Sure? Well, first, why don't you just like have me come back? What's just no part way guys, But if you want to find out more, Crush medical debt dot com is the place to start. And I'd like to send people to Crush Medical debt dot com slash free dash resources or just go to Crush Medical Debt dot com and the free resources as on the top of the navbar there. And the reason is I direct folks there because that's where you can find a refresher a checklist of the three steps of the Only Right Way
to Pay every medical bill. So, you know, some people say, you know what, I really don't even want to spend money on a book. I've just things are just so tight, I just know, So go to crushmedical debt dot com get this information for free, the three steps of the Only Right Way to Pay a Medical Bill and I'd say eight to nine times out of ten. You just eradicate the foolishness that unfortunately predatory billing tries to inflict on folks and make us victims of the system.
Doctor Burgie. We love what you're doing out there. You're making a difference, and thank you so much for joining us on the show today.
Oh my gosh, thank you for having me guys. I love talking with you, and thank you for what you guys do. You're doing awesome stuff helping folks master their money.
Oh well, thank you. Like you're in a kind similar missions I think, like minded for sure.
Yeah, mutual admiration society.
Awesome. Well, thanks again, Take care guys, Matt. Always good to have a swell conversation. There's so much, so much nuance in this topic of pushing back against you know, unethical medical billing is sure is one thing, or maybe just an error prone industry as on top of that, and there's there's a lot we need to know as individuals to fight back.
She mentioned how they never make mistakes in your favor.
Right, isn't that amazing?
So if you are out there and you're thinking, oh, I don't think I want to check in because what if I'm actually going to owe them more money? That's high, highly unlikely.
You never like that community chest of monopoly, right, bank are in your favor, here's one hundred and fifty bucks. It's not gonna happen.
But yeah, what was your big takeaway from our conversation with doctor Vergie?
Okay? I think my big takeaway was to use technology to your advantage. And she was talking about, well, one, just pushing back getting those those CPT codes, But on top of that, she was saying, use Google, right, and Google can help you not only figure out what those codes mean because it's like a foreign language, but on out of that you can figure out what is medicare, pay these medical facilities right for those codes for those services.
And without the Internet and Google at your service, man, this must have been so much harder back in the day.
I think it was probably impossible. Yeah, yeah, So.
It's nice back in the day, nice to know that you've got technology on your side. There's a lot of information out there. It's not necessarily right there in front of your face. You have to dig a little bit, but a little bit of digging can save.
You a lot. Yeah, absolutely, and that's important. Information to know. And so you were talking about figuring out what it is that Medicare pays. So I guess my big takeaway is going to be related to that, because obviously it's not that you're trying to get out from paying a bill where a hospital or a doctor took care of you and provided you a good service. You just want to in what she said and when I wrote this down, but you want to be able to pay the fair
retail value. And you know what if the government, if they're the ones saying that, oh, this is a fair price, well I want that to be a fair price for me as well, like I don't't have to pay some marked up right. And so it's not that you're trying to pull one on the hospital or the doctor or the clinic or wherever. It's just about making sure that you're not getting ripped off. And so I guess it's not just about having the tools and using the technology
and figuring out the CPT codes. But it's not not GPT. By the way, we're not talking about chat chat CPTs. Somebody should make a tool.
That's chat cpt A I can help you push back on some of this.
Yeah, that's so so it's not just about the tools, it's also the mindset and how it is that you are looking to approach some of these conversations in some of these negotiations, because if you are not afraid, but if you're kind of timid about how it is you're talking to these medical providers, you may not negotiate as well. If you're thinking, well, they did fix me.
Yeah, you might think, oh, I got good service. The doctors and the nurses were great, Like, I guess I have to pay what I owe, but you should as opposed to divorce those two things. Thankful for the great service, but then push back against the bill that's out of line. And there are specific lines in this that you can draw based on the information you can get from the internet from just a little.
Bit of research.
So you don't have to feel bad pushing back, especially because these nonprofit hospitals in particular, have a lot of discretion, have a lot of ability thought for forgiveness, and actually legally are required to So yeah.
Well, she was saying that that's another great point that I guess I'd never really thought about it, but that they are required to offer what the an income based repayment plan. Oh my gosh, that's also some excellent information to have on hand, Like, these are all things that should help you to think. Oh no, I don't want to say that you are owed a discount or that you deserve a discount, but that is one hundred percent
an option. Yeah, especially if you're like, wait a minute, I get taxed on what I earn the hospital doesn't so a little bit.
I've done this before too, and before I knew that this is the reason why it was forgiving.
Them just because I want to save money, like pay less money.
I was like naive but just kind of persistent, and having looked back on those days, I'm like, man, it's just interesting. I've probably paid other medical bills that I didn't need to, and I don't want other people to go through that. I want people to be able to know their rights, know how they can push back and get their bills either reduced or forgiven, and fight back against a system that is really seeking to part them from their money.
Yeah, to feel empowered and motivated to do it as well. Yeah, that's right man. All right. The beer that you and I we both each enjoyed, a Passo fino porter. This is a beer by Horsefly Brewing Company out of Montrose. Is it Montrose? I don't know, it's one word, but it's it's Montrose, but just one word in Colorado. But this is a beer from Mark and Caitlin. And so they actually live in North Carolina and they embarked on this, he said, eighty six hundred mile road trip that included
a couple of days. Nice.
I guess at a favorite spot of every road trip needs to involve a craft brewery or it's not officially a road trip. Sorry, you just drove your car around the country, all right, True, you gotta have disc golf, I think, and craft beer involves. But yeah, big thanks to him taking that's a Yeah, that's gonna be interesting Mark and Caitlin, big thanks to y'all. And yeah, this
beer was. It reminded me of like did you dig get a semi sweet chocolate chip where it was a little bit bitter, a little bit sweet and not too heavy, right, So I love a good porter and too heavy.
Yeah, too sweet, which is kind of exactly what you want on a warmer summer day like we're experiencing now, right.
So you get that it's not stout weather yet, No, yeah, we can do porters.
If you want some of that roasty flavor, then that's when you should be looking to something like a porter where you've got those darker flavors without the body that weighs you down. That feels like it should. You know, it's almost like a blanket. You want a nice heavy blanket in the winter. That's also how I feel about bigger scouts. If you do what some of that flavor here in these warmer months, that's when you offer that porter.
Yeah, the big stouts are December through February. That's absolutely yeah.
But then again, you know, we'll probably end up with us some giant stout in like two weeks while it's still warm.
You never know. We are equal opportunity drinkers. But that'll be the that'll be it for this episode. We'll have links to some of the free resources that doctor Burgie mentioned up in our show notes at how money dot com and a link to her book to so you can check that out.
Yea, specifically the patient Advocate dot org. That's sounding like an incredible, incredible site. For sure, you can find all that up there. But buddy, that's going to be it for this one. So until next time, best friends out, best friends out